Alicia’s story is a rare story of survival. Twenty years ago, Alicia was abducted and raped by a man she met in an online chatroom. She was just 13 at the time. Her ordeal lasted four days, which was the time it took for the FBI to track down her kidnapper. Since her rescue, Alicia has devoted her life to fighting child predators and educating children and adults on internet safety and sexual exploitation. She is one of the most vocal and outspoken advocates for child safety legislation.
In this episode, Alicia shares her insights on the scale of the problem of missing children and sextortions, victim blaming and what all parents should do to protect their children from online predators. As we become increasingly mindful of the issues associated with the sharing of personal data, Alicia reminds us that this same information enables task force agents to rescue endangered children.
You can find out more about Alicia's work at aliciakozak.com
This podcast is brought to you by RELX.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
YS Chi (00:00):
The Unique Contributions podcast is brought to you by
RELX. Find out more about us byvisiting relx.com.
Alicia Kozak (00:09):
And the fact is that every child can fall
victim, no matter what kind ofcommunity, no matter what kind
of family, and that is justreally important to remember
that this can happen to you, itcan happen to your family, it
happened to me and I certainlynever thought it would happen to
me.
YS Chi (00:41):
Hello, and welcome to series three of Unique
Contributions, a RELX podcastwhere we bring you closer to
some of the most interestingpeople from around our
businesses. I'm YS Chi and I'llbe exploring some of the biggest
issues that matter to society,how they are making a
difference, and what broughtthem to where they are today. In
this episode, I want to delveinto the topic of online safety
(01:04):
and the dark world of internetgrooming and abduction of
children. My guest today is theextraordinary and
internationally acclaimed AliciaKozak, the internet safety
expert and missing personsadvocate. Alicia's story is a
rare story of survival. 20 yearsago, Alicia was abducted and
raped by a man she met in anonline chat room. She was only
(01:27):
13 at the time. Her ordeallasted four days, which was the
time it took for the FBI totrack down her kidnapper. Since
her rescue, Alicia has devotedher life to fighting child
predators and educates childrenand adults on internet safety
and sexual exploitation. She'sone of the most vocal and
(01:48):
outspoken advocates for childsafety legislation. She
testified before Congress andworks to pass ALicia's law, her
namesake, which provides fundingto the Internet Crimes Against
Children Task Force, enablingthem to rescue endangered
children. She has also featuredon The Oprah Winfrey Show, Good
Morning America, ABC, CNN, andgraced the cover of People
(02:11):
magazine amongst others. Alicia,it is an absolute honour and
pleasure to have you with us.
Welcome.
Alicia Kozak (02:18):
Thank you. I am so excited to be here and to talk
about this incredibly importanttopic with your audience.
YS Chi (02:24):
I believe your case was one of the first widely
publicised cases of grooming,and child abduction on the
internet. Since then, there hasbeen an explosion of this kind
of crime. And I recently readthat there are 300,000 children
reported missing each year inthe US. Can you please give us a
feel for the scale of theproblem?
Unknown (02:46):
Ah, well, the scale of the problem is, it's truly
massive. When this happened tome back in 2002, there were no
other stories like mine. Andfollowing my rescue, I realised
that a big reason that thishappened to me was because there
was no internet safetyeducation. And that's why I
(03:06):
began sharing my story at theage of 14. But I knew back then
that this problem was only goingto grow because I had an
understanding of the internetand internet predation that
other people didn't seem to haveat the time. Thankfully, we're
realising now that this is anissue that we need to focus on
(03:27):
that this is a danger facingevery child and every family.
But I still think people don'tquite understand how big of an
issue and how easily this canhappen to your family. So when
speaking about missing children,like you said, my story is
actually quite rare. And in mycase, statistically, I should be
(03:50):
dead. But 300,000, over 300,000children go missing every year.
Thankfully, over 90% of them aresafely recovered. But when we're
talking about the internet, weare not just talking about
children who go missing. Thisgoes far beyond the child who is
abducted and leaves with thepredator and is groomed that is
(04:13):
most absolutely an issue. Butpredators reach further than
that. And it is more insidiousand more hidden.
YS Chi (04:20):
Can you elaborate a little more please?
Alicia Kozak (04:22):
Well, when this happened to me, it seemed that
the real only conversation thatwe were having, as rarely as we
were having it, was childrenbeing groomed and kidnapped over
the internet. And like I said,that absolutely happens. It
happens far too often. And inmany of the schools I've spoken
in, it's happened in those veryschools. But in every school
(04:45):
I've spoken in, there have beencases recently of sextortion,
and sextortion is so incrediblyinsidious that these children
are held captive just as much asI was when I was chained in a
basement. And I think that'shard for people to wrap their
head around. But they're heldcaptive by shame and guilt and
(05:06):
fear. And what sextortion is, isthat this child is groomed, and
that they are then asked for aphoto, or video or material. And
now they are blackmailed. Andwhat's been happening is that in
most of these cases, in like 80%of them, it's not to get more
(05:28):
images. It's for financialreasons, it's to truly extort.
And kids don't know how tohandle that. They don't know how
to ask for help,
YS Chi (05:38):
Alicia, in your knowledge, how much in those
cases are family then broughtin? Or do children just suffer
on their own without being ableto even talk about the financial
extortion?
Alicia Kozak (05:52):
Oh, so many children are suffering, I speak
to so many of them, and I helpthem talk to their parents.
They'll come up to meafterwards, and after a
presentation and they'll say,Alicia, I'm really scared. I'm
really embarrassed. I'm afraidmy parents are gonna take my
phone away. What do I do, and wesit down, and we talk about how
to tell their parents. But oftenparents are brought in. I spoke
in a school recently, and therewas a boy, I think he was like
(06:15):
11 years old. And he had sent apicture and had been blackmailed
and threatened and wasterrified. But thankfully, his
mom found out because she hadlooked at his phone. And when
the police were brought intothis to investigate, they
actually discovered that thiswas in a foreign country with a
(06:37):
room of like, 200 computers thatthis was, they are just
targeting random kids.
YS Chi (06:43):
Yeah, this is a big business.
Alicia Kozak (06:45):
Exactly, and with this, it's often boys and with
boys, we don't have the sameconversation surrounding sexting
and privacy and all of that,like we do with girls. And that
absolutely needs to change.
YS Chi (06:57):
Indeed, it needs to change and you know, culturally,
it is so shamed, right. And yet,we overlook so many of the other
things that our children do,that is not what we wish they
do. And yet there is some kindof cultural barrier there isn't
there.
Alicia Kozak (07:12):
Yes, and unfortunately, it's natural now.
It is part of dating, as wrongas that is, it's seen as dating
and dating, whether you're twoadults dating or two teens
dating, they're kind of the sameroles, and the same, for lack of
any better term - obligationsapply. And that has become so
(07:34):
common, and I think also duringthe pandemic, when that was the
only way that kids could reallyconnect was through technology.
That was how they were flirting.
That was how they were dating,it was the only thing that they
could do when they couldn't haveany physical contact.
YS Chi (07:47):
That's right. So I was going to ask, the pandemic did
exacerbate this problem?
Alicia Kozak (07:53):
Oh, hugely. When the pandemic first happened, I
remember my first thought and Iremember feeling almost kind of
silly for it. Because I'm alwayslike, "Oh, the children, like
the world is possibly ending,but oh, no, the kids are going
to be at home. And they're gonnabe on the computers". And that
was the first thing that came tomy mind is how dangerous this is
going to be to kids, as theywere going to be at home and
(08:15):
online and relying on technologymore than ever. But not only
that, all the predators werealso at home, knowing that the
kids were at home and that, forthe most part, they were
unsupervised. Because theirparents, not for lack of caring,
but were so busy also workingfrom home. Everybody was at
home, but incredibly busy. Yeah,exactly. Mom's on the phone call
(08:38):
with Zoom. So now the kids inthe bedroom on the phone by
themselves. It was a reallydangerous combination of things.
And I've noticed that actually,in my presentation now that kids
are different, that sometimesI'll speak to them, and they
will be looking at me like I'mon a screen. Like they won't
have the same reactions thatthey used to have. And they're
(09:01):
sort of blunted by all of thisand that they no longer, like
they used to not want to gooutside that when this happened
to me, they no longer wanted togo outside because the
technology was at home, like itwas a desktop and you're on a
computer and you couldn't leave.
But when we were able to takeour phones everywhere that that
certainly changed. But now kidswant to be at home again. I've
spoken to a lot of parents andthey'll say, "Well, I tried to
(09:23):
get my kid to go out and hangout with their friends and I see
them in school, and that'senough". They're not socialising
other than online.
YS Chi (09:31):
All right. So since you've seen this thing now over
these 20 years, give us a littlebit of the time insight. 20
years ago, this problem existed.
10 years ago, the online imagesmorphed into the pandemic and
now it seems out of control,almost at a breaking point. What
went wrong? Where did we not doenough to stop this from
(09:55):
ballooning like this?
Alicia Kozak (10:00):
I love this question. Nobody has ever asked
me this. And I always love beingasked a question that I haven't
been asked before. Nobody's everasked me what went wrong. I
don't think I don't want to sayanybody is to blame. But when I
first started speaking out, Iwas really called a fear monger.
And people were saying that thiscouldn't happen, and that kids
would know better. And itwasn't, it wasn't necessarily
(10:22):
practical advice, and peopleweren't having conversations
with kids in a real way. Andthat's one reason that my
presentations were and are soeffective is that I have a real
conversation with them aboutwhere they're at and not, not
above or below them. And that isso important. But I don't think
(10:43):
people understood how big of anissue that this could become
that, when we're looking at thislittle thing in our hands, this
little device, that we arelooking at the World Wide Web,
and it is all the good and allthe evil of the world, in that
little box, and everything isjust a click away. We understand
that evil is around us, andtypically, it's outside
hopefully, and something can begoing on at home, of course, but
(11:05):
that we have to be afraid ofwhat's inside. But this device,
we have to be afraid of what'swith us constantly and all the
time. And a predator is reallyonly like I said, just a click
away. Also, as far as the groupsthat investigate these sorts of
crimes, we haven't necessarilycaught up to the ability of
funding them appropriately. Solike the Internet Crimes Against
(11:27):
Children task forces are fundedso little, and they are so
overworked but now they'reworking on these images and with
cyber tips that I speak to themand they talk about the case
loads, like truly like what youimagine on a desk, just stuff
piled so high that they can'tget through because there's just
more and more and more. Andthat's where Alicia's law comes
(11:49):
in, my namesake, which helps tofund the Internet Crimes Against
Children task forces. It'scurrently passed in 12 US
States. Yeah. So not that many,I'm still very proud of that
amount. In those states, there'sbeen some really great outcomes,
and working on currently makingmore connections. 2020 kind of
put a pause on that, of course.
But we need to fund thesegroups, because they are, they
(12:13):
are protecting your childrenfrom almost a certain crime.
When I talk to kids, that's whatI say to them. I say that
abduction is possible. But it israre as compared to what you're
facing, which I believe everychild will face having. And
pretty much every adult to behonest, will be faced with
having to send an image like
YS Chi (12:35):
So I was going to, you know, ask this question, and I
that.
think you gave me an answeralready partially. The fact that
it went from physical harm tothis financial harm. That means
that the number of possibilitiesof damage has absolutely
exponentially grown. Right?
Alicia Kozak (12:56):
Exactly. And when it comes to this, we're not
talking about grooming, to forma false relationship as much.
Yes, it's that but it'sdifferent because it's scamming.
And that's a whole differentangle. And it's even more
random. This is truly so randomthat they're just targeting
kids, anywhere they can findthem.
YS Chi (13:18):
And it sounds like it is being done. Not just by one or
two individuals that are, youknow, evil, but by an entire
organisation - a business that'sbehind it.
Alicia Kozak (13:30):
So let's ask you a question or anybody else who's
listening to this - Have youever almost been scammed? Do you
ever get those emails?
YS Chi (13:35):
Oh, yes, I get plenty of those.
Alicia Kozak (13:38):
So think about that. Think about how often - on
all my devices - Yep. I mean,we're probably getting them
right now. Like I've had thathappen. I've said that. And I
looked down at my phone, like atmy Apple watch or something. And
I'm like, "Oh, look, somebody'sgiving me a free fridge". Like
that's not true, obviously. Butthat this is such an issue. And
people found a way to, to makemoney and people who don't care
(14:00):
about the wellbeing of anybodyand also think that they can
hide behind the anonymity of thecomputer, or the phone or
whatever technology they'reusing. And also, this is often
in foreign countries where it'sjust harder to investigate that.
YS Chi (14:13):
Exactly. So let me get back to this Alicia's law that
you are advocating. Funding,where should funding be
directed?
Alicia Kozak (14:22):
So it needs to be funded, or directed to the
groups like the Internet CrimesAgainst Children task forces to
give them more boots on theground, to give them actually
more officers and more agents,better technology, more
computers, just the whole gamut.
I've talked to some of them andthey are working out of teeny
tiny little trailers or somehave like one full time ICAC
(14:42):
officer, it's it'sdisheartening. I go to a lot of
conferences and I stand withthese people and I present to
them and I watch how muchthey're struggling. And I hear
them talk about their case loadsand it's heartbreaking because
you can hear how much they wantto do more and how passionate
they are about their job. Andsometimes they have like tears
in their eyes. Yeah. And theyknow they can make a difference
(15:05):
if they had the funding and theresources.
YS Chi (15:08):
Can you just give us one example of a successful advocacy
that in one of those 12 states,and what difference it might
Alicia Kozak (15:18):
Sure. So a lot of it, I can't share. Some of it
have made?
I've been told with very littledetail, but one of the best
outcomes is and I get reallygiddy about this, you can hear
Terrific. That is so upliftingto hear. I'm going to turn the
it in my voice. I'm very excitedbecause it has to do with a
fluffy dog. So in Wisconsin,where Alicia's Law passed, they,
Alicia's Law helped to fund aESD dog, which is an electronic
(15:39):
storage device dog. And whatthese dogs are able to do,
angle a little bit and ask, thisexplosion of victims that we see
they're specifically trained tosniff out technology. So
anything from a giant desktop,to a teeny, tiny micro SD card,
these dogs are able to sniff itout. Even if it's in the
ceiling, or it was in on a deskand it was moved. It's really
incredible. And the officer inWisconsin, who is a dear friend
(15:59):
among children that have beengroomed. Do you think there is
of mine, she named him Kozackafter me. So I have this like
furry crime fighting buddy. Andhe has been instrumental in
finding, I believe he's been on400 searches and on over 300 of
them - I don't know the exactnumber off the top of my head -
But he found devices that weremissed. And it's not because law
any study or anything that weknow of and how this affects the
(16:19):
enforcement isn't good at theirjob, or they're not looking hard
enough. It's because they don'tactually tear open mattresses
and break open the lights. And acase is only as strong as its
evidence. So if somebody issharing Child Sexual Abuse
mental health of young children?
There are many other thingsmaterial, and they have it on a
drive, and they hide it, andit's hidden, and you can't find
it, then that's missed evidence.
(16:42):
And like I said, a case is onlyas strong as its evidence. So
these dogs, there's more andmore of them all over the
country. And they areincredible. But that was one of
going on in our world, thatprobably triggers more mental
the most amazing outcomes, Ithink of Alicia's Law.
(17:05):
health crisis. But theredefinitely is a visible crisis
today. Do you think this hassomething to do with it?
(17:35):
Absolutely, technology has donea number on children's mental
health. There is so much theyhave to live up to through
social media. There is this pushfor, for fame and to be noticed,
so to not have a private accountbut to have everything public
have a public Tik Tok, have itbe shocking, have it be sexy,
(17:58):
whatever. So kids are pushingthe boundaries. But then when
they fall victim to somethinglike this. They're not telling,
they're not coming forward,they're too afraid often.
Because the whole point of thisperson who groomed them is to
terrify them, is to shame them.
I was recently invited to speakat a school and I'm speaking
there next month, and one oftheir kids, heartbreakingly was
(18:22):
extorted and had become sooverwhelmed by it, that he died
by suicide. And we're seeingthis more and more where these
kids feel helpless. And wereally need to turn that around
and in a way with, with finesse,and to come face to face with
(18:43):
the fact that kids are doingthis and not to shame them.
Right? Because again, that'swhat is happening to them.
YS Chi (18:51):
This is a this is a form of bullying by adults. Oh,
absolutely. And it's reallyeasy. And you know, you know,
the outcome of bullying, youknow, often is is tragic.
Alicia Kozak (19:01):
Yes, and it's making it so these kids are
having a hard time functioning,imagine you are a 10 year old
girl, and you sent this photo.
And now this person says, youknow, do this and this and this,
or I'm going to do that andyou're at the dinner table with
your family. You have 10 secondsto do this, or I'm going to do
this awful thing. And I spoke toparent recently as well who got
involved and was like you needto leave my daughter alone. And
(19:24):
what that person actually said,that predator said, "Well, you
know, if you've try to dosomething about this, I'm going
to make sure she kills herself"and started threatening the mom.
And that's why it's important tofor the family not to feel shame
to get help. This isn't just aone size fits all, one person
goes to one person the problemsolved. This has to be reported
to law enforcement as well. Andthat's where the family has to
(19:48):
stand up and not be ashamed.
YS Chi (19:50):
Right. So I don't hear a tone of you blaming people. So
I'm going to see if we can getyour wisdom around. You know How
do we tackle this? Nowtechnology isn't inherently a
bad thing, but it can, likeeverything be used for bad
things. Every advancement wemake, you know, has a light and
(20:14):
shadow right? So there will betrade offs. It does enable
predators, but it can alsoenable agents and investigators
to catch them. As we know, everyonline transaction is encrypted,
and leaves a digital trace ordigital clues, which then police
and investigators can use tofind the abductors and abusers.
(20:34):
I believe this has allowed themto improve the recovery rates of
missing children. The gamechanger is speed and access to
information. So as someone whocampaigns so strongly for online
safety, what are some of yourthoughts on the tension between
allowing law enforcementofficials to access information
at speed versus ensuringpeople's privacy?
Alicia Kozak (20:58):
Okay, that was a great question, and I love it.
And I'm going to answer in asecond. But I do want to touch
on the victim blaming reallyquickly. Is that okay? Because I
think it's important. Yeah,absolutely.
YS Chi (21:05):
Yes, please.
Alicia Kozak (21:07):
Okay, so with the shame and the potential victim
blaming, because these childrenare truly victims, we need to
remember, and parents definitelyneed to remember because they'll
see that what their child issaying and doing is shocking,
the topics that they'recovering, the conversations that
(21:28):
they're having with thesepredators may be shocking. And
the predator is pushing theirboundaries. And in a way,
forcing them to do that, that iswhat grooming is, it breaks down
your boundaries and your values,and the child starts to make
mistakes. And it can besomething so completely out of
(21:50):
that child's character, andsomething that would shock
society and shock the family.
But please know that that iswhat grooming is. And it is
never that child's fault. Nomatter what they're talking
about, no matter what poorchoices they make. They are a
kid. And this is an adult who istricking them and manipulating
them on purpose to do thosespecific things.
YS Chi (22:13):
Yes, we all need to be remembering that.
Alicia Kozak (22:16):
Absolutely.
Because it's really easy to go,"Well, my kid wouldn't do that".
Or you read a news story, and tojust think that that child is a
bad kid. And that's not the caseat all. Again, these predators
are grooming these kids to dothings that they really wouldn't
otherwise do, or things thatthey're naturally curious about.
It's again, a dangerouscombination of things.
YS Chi (22:39):
So we need to catch these people - we really do.
What is your thought on thattension between law enforcement
having access to information andhaving privacy respected?
Alicia Kozak (22:55):
It's tricky.
Because I don't have an answer,that's an easy answer. And I
wish I did. Because privacy isso important. In a time when we
share just about everything, weovershare. We still need to have
an amount of privacy. And Icertainly want my privacy to be
respected. I want your privacyto be respected. But when it
comes to the protection ofchildren, we have to find a
(23:18):
balance. And I can't saynecessarily what that balance
is. But we need to realise thatthat has to come first and
foremost, that there arechildren out there who are
suffering and in pain that couldbe rescued based on something as
simple as a quickerinvestigation. For example, in
(23:39):
my own case, looking back and atthe very early days of the
internet, again, the way that Iwas rescued is that he had been
live streaming, what he wasdoing to me to other people
online. And there was a group ofpeople who are watching this,
who chose to watch this who areenjoying watching it and my pain
and degradation. But one ofthese people who was watching it
(24:03):
was able to recognise me from myNational Centre for Missing and
Exploited Children poster, andhe ran out to a payphone at the
time, that tells you how oldthis he ran out to a payphone
and he contacted lawenforcement. And he was able to
give one of the screen namesthat the perpetrator used, but
not anything else. He had noother information really. And so
(24:26):
law enforcement was able totrack down the IP address to the
house address from that screenname. And they broke into that
house to rescue me around 4.30and he had left, he left me
chained but he left that day togo to work. And when he came,
when he was going to come backto that house that night, he had
(24:49):
planned to kill me. Oh my. Andso when we look at how important
time is, we're talking aboutseconds and when you think about
a missing child how far they cango, how far to how fast do cars
go? Right? We're talking atleast a mile a minute that your
child is further and furtheraway. And so we need to really
weigh that and what that meansand what law enforcement should
(25:14):
have access to and absolutelyneeds to have access to because
we have to keep kids safe, wecan use the same technology that
is hurting these kids, toprotect them.
YS Chi (25:26):
So I understand that a federal law was presented last
year called ADPPA and that youcame out to raise your voice
about that proposed legislation,can you tell us what aspect of
it you were either supporting,or asking to change?
Alicia Kozak (25:47):
I just really need for legislators to look at it
and realise that it could hinderthe rescue of children and
missing people and other violentcrimes. That that's not
something that can beoverlooked. And I know it is a
difficult area to look into.
There is so much grey space andalso black and white, it is just
(26:10):
very complicated, but that weneed to have those conversations
and we can't ignore it. I knowit is a highly supported bill.
And there are parts of it, ofcourse, that are really
important. But as far as again,we're looking at people who are
being harmed, and most certainlychildren and the inability to
(26:32):
maybe find predators and rapistsand human traffickers and other
violent criminals. Yeah, we'relooking at something so much
bigger than that. And again,we're taking away something that
could help solve such a bigproblem. We'd love to talk about
problems in the world, right.
But we don't necessarily talkabout the solutions. And that's
what I'm focused on. And that'swhat we need to focus on
(26:54):
together.
YS Chi (26:55):
Great. Well, I hope they're listening to you,
because you've been advocatingso long, that we know you're
not, you don't have an extraagenda, other than the safety of
children and their family.
Absolutely. So then what advicewould you have? We've heard
about the issues we've heardabout potential technology
implication, and the legalimplication, what advice do you
(27:16):
have for parents and children?
Is it education? Is it somethingmore than that? What should the
parents be doing?
Alicia Kozak (27:26):
Now, this is a really scary issue. And it's
something that you might think,if I ignore it, I'll be okay. Or
if I talk about it, I'll bringit into my space of reference.
And the fact is that every childcan fall victim, no matter what
kind of community no matter whatkind of family, and that is just
really important to rememberthat this can happen to you, it
(27:47):
can happen to your family, ithappened to me, and I certainly
never thought it would happen tome and my parents, never in a
million years thought somethinglike that could happen to me. So
first, you really need torealise that this is an issue as
a parent, and you need toeducate yourself as much as
possible. And I know that'sreally daunting, and it's
constantly changing. And theseemojis and language and
(28:08):
everything is changing soquickly. It's hard to keep up
with, but that's no reason tonot try. The other thing is that
you have to talk to your kidsabout internet safety. You have
to talk to them about thedangers from the time that they
first touched that laptop orphone, which is very young, I
see like toddlers in strollers.
But you see kids who are soyoung on these devices, and
(28:30):
they've had to have them becauseof again, the pandemic. Kids who
maybe wouldn't have had thattechnology before, have had
access to it. So to talk to yourkids about it, and people ask
me, How do I do that? Well justsit down and talk to them. Talk
to your kids have aconversation. You know, your
kid, you know, your kid best.
(28:51):
Sit down and just have thatconversation. I met a parent
yesterday, I went to an eventand she came home and she said
she'd I'd never met her before.
And I told her my story. And shecame home and she talked to her
13 year old daughter. And shesaid her 13 year old daughter
was like I know Mom, leave mealone. And the fact is that you
might get that response. Andthat is okay. Because they do
think they know everything. ButI've learned just because you
(29:13):
know more and you have moreinformation, it doesn't mean
that you know better. Next youneed to monitor what your kids
are doing, and do I mean toinvade their privacy - kind of,
you have to be able to pick uptheir device and go through it
at any time at any time at all.
And it's not because you'retrying to get them in trouble.
Say you found out that yourchild went to that party they
(29:34):
weren't supposed to or theytried a beer or whatever kids
do, that you don't point thoseout. But if something is really
wrong, you can address it. Soit's not to like keep ahead of
your kid and get them introuble. It's just if that
really horrible thing happens.
You have a tool necessary, butat the same time, you really
can't completely rely on thattool. I see parents who are
(29:55):
like, well, I downloaded thisapp. So now everything's covered
and It's not, you need to havean active part in that. The next
thing and I think it is the mostimportant though, is to let your
child know that they can come toyou with absolutely anything at
all, and you will not punishthem, you will not shame them,
you will not embarrass them. Andmost importantly, you will not
(30:15):
take their device away, becausethat really is their entire
world, that is part of who theyare, that is their social
identity. And you have to thinkabout how hard it would be to
come forward to your parentsabout something that you know,
you could get in trouble for,like the kid who sends that
image and now they're beingblackmailed, and threatened, it
would be so difficult. So havingthat ability for your child to
(30:39):
come to you with absolutelyanything that you'll sit down
together, you'll work throughit, you'll have a cup of hot
cocoa and cookies. And you'lltell your child that you're
proud of them for comingforward, that this is a very
mature thing, you're proud ofthem, and you're going to solve
the issue together.
YS Chi (30:55):
Speaking of together, if this could be done among all of
our community, it would even bemore effective, whether that's
family, friends, school, ourCommunity Polls, you know,
whether that would be you know,a religious institution or
outside school activity, ifeverybody would be aware of
this, it would really have abigger impact than if just the
(31:17):
parents had to try to fight thisalone.
Alicia Kozak (31:20):
Oh, absolutely.
And that's my goal. When I speakto schools, I speak to not only
the kids, but I definitely alsospeak to the parents. Because I
talk to the kids about going totheir parents so their parents
need to have that rightresponse, but also having the
opportunity to speak to theschool staff, the people who
interact with those kids. And itis so important for people I
know, everybody can't be on thesame page, but to have this
(31:42):
understanding of the dangers andwhat that response should be.
YS Chi (31:50):
Well, there's no way to sugarcoat this issue. Kids are
the victims, their families thenbecome victims and our community
is victimised in turn. Alicia, Ican't thank you enough for
spending the time with us. Youare a true inspiration to all of
us. Your ability to overcomeadversity, and then turn it into
(32:11):
a life mission to help others.
This is extraordinary. Thank youso much.
Alicia Kozak (32:17):
Thank you so much for having me. And again, giving
me this opportunity to reachyour audience. This is it's more
important to have a conversationtoday than it was when it
happened to me. And I'm seeingthis by presenting to these
audiences all the time. I'mlearning from them constantly
and seeing what kids are reallyfacing. And we just really need
(32:39):
to be prepared. We can fightthis and we can we can do
something about it. But we haveto, we have to do it. It's not
enough just to talk about it.
YS Chi (32:48):
Yes, exactly. And thank goodness, we have you out there
doing this so that we can all beeducated, because we all have
children, whether our own or ourneighbours or friends or you
know, relatives. We all havechildren and grandchildren that
are affected by this. Thank youso much.
Alicia Kozak (33:06):
Thank you again.
YS Chi (33:08):
If you want to learn more about Alicia's work and
help make a difference. Pleaselog on to her website
aliciakozak.com, A L I C I A KO Z A K.com. And thank you to
our listeners for tuning in.
Don't forget to hit subscribe onyour podcast app to get new
episodes as soon as they'rereleased. Thanks for listening
The Unique Contributions podcast is brought to you by
RELX. Find out more about us byvisiting relx.com.
Alicia Kozak (00:09):
And the fact is that every child can fall
victim, no matter what kind ofcommunity, no matter what kind
of family, and that is justreally important to remember
that this can happen to you, itcan happen to your family, it
happened to me and I certainlynever thought it would happen to
me.
YS Chi (00:41):
Hello, and welcome to series three of Unique
Contributions, a RELX podcastwhere we bring you closer to
some of the most interestingpeople from around our
businesses. I'm YS Chi and I'llbe exploring some of the biggest
issues that matter to society,how they are making a
difference, and what broughtthem to where they are today. In
this episode, I want to delveinto the topic of online safety
(01:04):
and the dark world of internetgrooming and abduction of
children. My guest today is theextraordinary and
internationally acclaimed AliciaKozak, the internet safety
expert and missing personsadvocate. Alicia's story is a
rare story of survival. 20 yearsago, Alicia was abducted and
raped by a man she met in anonline chat room. She was only
(01:27):
13 at the time. Her ordeallasted four days, which was the
time it took for the FBI totrack down her kidnapper. Since
her rescue, Alicia has devotedher life to fighting child
predators and educates childrenand adults on internet safety
and sexual exploitation. She'sone of the most vocal and
(01:48):
outspoken advocates for childsafety legislation. She
testified before Congress andworks to pass ALicia's law, her
namesake, which provides fundingto the Internet Crimes Against
Children Task Force, enablingthem to rescue endangered
children. She has also featuredon The Oprah Winfrey Show, Good
Morning America, ABC, CNN, andgraced the cover of People
(02:11):
magazine amongst others. Alicia,it is an absolute honour and
pleasure to have you with us.
Welcome.
Alicia Kozak (02:18):
Thank you. I am so excited to be here and to talk
about this incredibly importanttopic with your audience.
YS Chi (02:24):
I believe your case was one of the first widely
publicised cases of grooming,and child abduction on the
internet. Since then, there hasbeen an explosion of this kind
of crime. And I recently readthat there are 300,000 children
reported missing each year inthe US. Can you please give us a
feel for the scale of theproblem?
Unknown (02:46):
Ah, well, the scale of the problem is, it's truly
massive. When this happened tome back in 2002, there were no
other stories like mine. Andfollowing my rescue, I realised
that a big reason that thishappened to me was because there
was no internet safetyeducation. And that's why I
(03:06):
began sharing my story at theage of 14. But I knew back then
that this problem was only goingto grow because I had an
understanding of the internetand internet predation that
other people didn't seem to haveat the time. Thankfully, we're
realising now that this is anissue that we need to focus on
(03:27):
that this is a danger facingevery child and every family.
But I still think people don'tquite understand how big of an
issue and how easily this canhappen to your family. So when
speaking about missing children,like you said, my story is
actually quite rare. And in mycase, statistically, I should be
(03:50):
dead. But 300,000, over 300,000children go missing every year.
Thankfully, over 90% of them aresafely recovered. But when we're
talking about the internet, weare not just talking about
children who go missing. Thisgoes far beyond the child who is
abducted and leaves with thepredator and is groomed that is
(04:13):
most absolutely an issue. Butpredators reach further than
that. And it is more insidiousand more hidden.
YS Chi (04:20):
Can you elaborate a little more please?
Alicia Kozak (04:22):
Well, when this happened to me, it seemed that
the real only conversation thatwe were having, as rarely as we
were having it, was childrenbeing groomed and kidnapped over
the internet. And like I said,that absolutely happens. It
happens far too often. And inmany of the schools I've spoken
in, it's happened in those veryschools. But in every school
(04:45):
I've spoken in, there have beencases recently of sextortion,
and sextortion is so incrediblyinsidious that these children
are held captive just as much asI was when I was chained in a
basement. And I think that'shard for people to wrap their
head around. But they're heldcaptive by shame and guilt and
(05:06):
fear. And what sextortion is, isthat this child is groomed, and
that they are then asked for aphoto, or video or material. And
now they are blackmailed. Andwhat's been happening is that in
most of these cases, in like 80%of them, it's not to get more
(05:28):
images. It's for financialreasons, it's to truly extort.
And kids don't know how tohandle that. They don't know how
to ask for help,
YS Chi (05:38):
Alicia, in your knowledge, how much in those
cases are family then broughtin? Or do children just suffer
on their own without being ableto even talk about the financial
extortion?
Alicia Kozak (05:52):
Oh, so many children are suffering, I speak
to so many of them, and I helpthem talk to their parents.
They'll come up to meafterwards, and after a
presentation and they'll say,Alicia, I'm really scared. I'm
really embarrassed. I'm afraidmy parents are gonna take my
phone away. What do I do, and wesit down, and we talk about how
to tell their parents. But oftenparents are brought in. I spoke
in a school recently, and therewas a boy, I think he was like
(06:15):
11 years old. And he had sent apicture and had been blackmailed
and threatened and wasterrified. But thankfully, his
mom found out because she hadlooked at his phone. And when
the police were brought intothis to investigate, they
actually discovered that thiswas in a foreign country with a
(06:37):
room of like, 200 computers thatthis was, they are just
targeting random kids.
YS Chi (06:43):
Yeah, this is a big business.
Alicia Kozak (06:45):
Exactly, and with this, it's often boys and with
boys, we don't have the sameconversation surrounding sexting
and privacy and all of that,like we do with girls. And that
absolutely needs to change.
YS Chi (06:57):
Indeed, it needs to change and you know, culturally,
it is so shamed, right. And yet,we overlook so many of the other
things that our children do,that is not what we wish they
do. And yet there is some kindof cultural barrier there isn't
there.
Alicia Kozak (07:12):
Yes, and unfortunately, it's natural now.
It is part of dating, as wrongas that is, it's seen as dating
and dating, whether you're twoadults dating or two teens
dating, they're kind of the sameroles, and the same, for lack of
any better term - obligationsapply. And that has become so
(07:34):
common, and I think also duringthe pandemic, when that was the
only way that kids could reallyconnect was through technology.
That was how they were flirting.
That was how they were dating,it was the only thing that they
could do when they couldn't haveany physical contact.
YS Chi (07:47):
That's right. So I was going to ask, the pandemic did
exacerbate this problem?
Alicia Kozak (07:53):
Oh, hugely. When the pandemic first happened, I
remember my first thought and Iremember feeling almost kind of
silly for it. Because I'm alwayslike, "Oh, the children, like
the world is possibly ending,but oh, no, the kids are going
to be at home. And they're gonnabe on the computers". And that
was the first thing that came tomy mind is how dangerous this is
going to be to kids, as theywere going to be at home and
(08:15):
online and relying on technologymore than ever. But not only
that, all the predators werealso at home, knowing that the
kids were at home and that, forthe most part, they were
unsupervised. Because theirparents, not for lack of caring,
but were so busy also workingfrom home. Everybody was at
home, but incredibly busy. Yeah,exactly. Mom's on the phone call
(08:38):
with Zoom. So now the kids inthe bedroom on the phone by
themselves. It was a reallydangerous combination of things.
And I've noticed that actually,in my presentation now that kids
are different, that sometimesI'll speak to them, and they
will be looking at me like I'mon a screen. Like they won't
have the same reactions thatthey used to have. And they're
(09:01):
sort of blunted by all of thisand that they no longer, like
they used to not want to gooutside that when this happened
to me, they no longer wanted togo outside because the
technology was at home, like itwas a desktop and you're on a
computer and you couldn't leave.
But when we were able to takeour phones everywhere that that
certainly changed. But now kidswant to be at home again. I've
spoken to a lot of parents andthey'll say, "Well, I tried to
(09:23):
get my kid to go out and hangout with their friends and I see
them in school, and that'senough". They're not socialising
other than online.
YS Chi (09:31):
All right. So since you've seen this thing now over
these 20 years, give us a littlebit of the time insight. 20
years ago, this problem existed.
10 years ago, the online imagesmorphed into the pandemic and
now it seems out of control,almost at a breaking point. What
went wrong? Where did we not doenough to stop this from
(09:55):
ballooning like this?
Alicia Kozak (10:00):
I love this question. Nobody has ever asked
me this. And I always love beingasked a question that I haven't
been asked before. Nobody's everasked me what went wrong. I
don't think I don't want to sayanybody is to blame. But when I
first started speaking out, Iwas really called a fear monger.
And people were saying that thiscouldn't happen, and that kids
would know better. And itwasn't, it wasn't necessarily
(10:22):
practical advice, and peopleweren't having conversations
with kids in a real way. Andthat's one reason that my
presentations were and are soeffective is that I have a real
conversation with them aboutwhere they're at and not, not
above or below them. And that isso important. But I don't think
(10:43):
people understood how big of anissue that this could become
that, when we're looking at thislittle thing in our hands, this
little device, that we arelooking at the World Wide Web,
and it is all the good and allthe evil of the world, in that
little box, and everything isjust a click away. We understand
that evil is around us, andtypically, it's outside
hopefully, and something can begoing on at home, of course, but
(11:05):
that we have to be afraid ofwhat's inside. But this device,
we have to be afraid of what'swith us constantly and all the
time. And a predator is reallyonly like I said, just a click
away. Also, as far as the groupsthat investigate these sorts of
crimes, we haven't necessarilycaught up to the ability of
funding them appropriately. Solike the Internet Crimes Against
(11:27):
Children task forces are fundedso little, and they are so
overworked but now they'reworking on these images and with
cyber tips that I speak to themand they talk about the case
loads, like truly like what youimagine on a desk, just stuff
piled so high that they can'tget through because there's just
more and more and more. Andthat's where Alicia's law comes
(11:49):
in, my namesake, which helps tofund the Internet Crimes Against
Children task forces. It'scurrently passed in 12 US
States. Yeah. So not that many,I'm still very proud of that
amount. In those states, there'sbeen some really great outcomes,
and working on currently makingmore connections. 2020 kind of
put a pause on that, of course.
But we need to fund thesegroups, because they are, they
(12:13):
are protecting your childrenfrom almost a certain crime.
When I talk to kids, that's whatI say to them. I say that
abduction is possible. But it israre as compared to what you're
facing, which I believe everychild will face having. And
pretty much every adult to behonest, will be faced with
having to send an image like
YS Chi (12:35):
So I was going to, you know, ask this question, and I
that.
think you gave me an answeralready partially. The fact that
it went from physical harm tothis financial harm. That means
that the number of possibilitiesof damage has absolutely
exponentially grown. Right?
Alicia Kozak (12:56):
Exactly. And when it comes to this, we're not
talking about grooming, to forma false relationship as much.
Yes, it's that but it'sdifferent because it's scamming.
And that's a whole differentangle. And it's even more
random. This is truly so randomthat they're just targeting
kids, anywhere they can findthem.
YS Chi (13:18):
And it sounds like it is being done. Not just by one or
two individuals that are, youknow, evil, but by an entire
organisation - a business that'sbehind it.
Alicia Kozak (13:30):
So let's ask you a question or anybody else who's
listening to this - Have youever almost been scammed? Do you
ever get those emails?
YS Chi (13:35):
Oh, yes, I get plenty of those.
Alicia Kozak (13:38):
So think about that. Think about how often - on
all my devices - Yep. I mean,we're probably getting them
right now. Like I've had thathappen. I've said that. And I
looked down at my phone, like atmy Apple watch or something. And
I'm like, "Oh, look, somebody'sgiving me a free fridge". Like
that's not true, obviously. Butthat this is such an issue. And
people found a way to, to makemoney and people who don't care
(14:00):
about the wellbeing of anybodyand also think that they can
hide behind the anonymity of thecomputer, or the phone or
whatever technology they'reusing. And also, this is often
in foreign countries where it'sjust harder to investigate that.
YS Chi (14:13):
Exactly. So let me get back to this Alicia's law that
you are advocating. Funding,where should funding be
directed?
Alicia Kozak (14:22):
So it needs to be funded, or directed to the
groups like the Internet CrimesAgainst Children task forces to
give them more boots on theground, to give them actually
more officers and more agents,better technology, more
computers, just the whole gamut.
I've talked to some of them andthey are working out of teeny
tiny little trailers or somehave like one full time ICAC
(14:42):
officer, it's it'sdisheartening. I go to a lot of
conferences and I stand withthese people and I present to
them and I watch how muchthey're struggling. And I hear
them talk about their case loadsand it's heartbreaking because
you can hear how much they wantto do more and how passionate
they are about their job. Andsometimes they have like tears
in their eyes. Yeah. And theyknow they can make a difference
(15:05):
if they had the funding and theresources.
YS Chi (15:08):
Can you just give us one example of a successful advocacy
that in one of those 12 states,and what difference it might
Alicia Kozak (15:18):
Sure. So a lot of it, I can't share. Some of it
have made?
I've been told with very littledetail, but one of the best
outcomes is and I get reallygiddy about this, you can hear
Terrific. That is so upliftingto hear. I'm going to turn the
it in my voice. I'm very excitedbecause it has to do with a
fluffy dog. So in Wisconsin,where Alicia's Law passed, they,
Alicia's Law helped to fund aESD dog, which is an electronic
(15:39):
storage device dog. And whatthese dogs are able to do,
angle a little bit and ask, thisexplosion of victims that we see
they're specifically trained tosniff out technology. So
anything from a giant desktop,to a teeny, tiny micro SD card,
these dogs are able to sniff itout. Even if it's in the
ceiling, or it was in on a deskand it was moved. It's really
incredible. And the officer inWisconsin, who is a dear friend
(15:59):
among children that have beengroomed. Do you think there is
of mine, she named him Kozackafter me. So I have this like
furry crime fighting buddy. Andhe has been instrumental in
finding, I believe he's been on400 searches and on over 300 of
them - I don't know the exactnumber off the top of my head -
But he found devices that weremissed. And it's not because law
any study or anything that weknow of and how this affects the
(16:19):
enforcement isn't good at theirjob, or they're not looking hard
enough. It's because they don'tactually tear open mattresses
and break open the lights. And acase is only as strong as its
evidence. So if somebody issharing Child Sexual Abuse
mental health of young children?
There are many other thingsmaterial, and they have it on a
drive, and they hide it, andit's hidden, and you can't find
it, then that's missed evidence.
(16:42):
And like I said, a case is onlyas strong as its evidence. So
these dogs, there's more andmore of them all over the
country. And they areincredible. But that was one of
going on in our world, thatprobably triggers more mental
the most amazing outcomes, Ithink of Alicia's Law.
(17:05):
health crisis. But theredefinitely is a visible crisis
today. Do you think this hassomething to do with it?
(17:35):
Absolutely, technology has donea number on children's mental
health. There is so much theyhave to live up to through
social media. There is this pushfor, for fame and to be noticed,
so to not have a private accountbut to have everything public
have a public Tik Tok, have itbe shocking, have it be sexy,
(17:58):
whatever. So kids are pushingthe boundaries. But then when
they fall victim to somethinglike this. They're not telling,
they're not coming forward,they're too afraid often.
Because the whole point of thisperson who groomed them is to
terrify them, is to shame them.
I was recently invited to speakat a school and I'm speaking
there next month, and one oftheir kids, heartbreakingly was
(18:22):
extorted and had become sooverwhelmed by it, that he died
by suicide. And we're seeingthis more and more where these
kids feel helpless. And wereally need to turn that around
and in a way with, with finesse,and to come face to face with
(18:43):
the fact that kids are doingthis and not to shame them.
Right? Because again, that'swhat is happening to them.
YS Chi (18:51):
This is a this is a form of bullying by adults. Oh,
absolutely. And it's reallyeasy. And you know, you know,
the outcome of bullying, youknow, often is is tragic.
Alicia Kozak (19:01):
Yes, and it's making it so these kids are
having a hard time functioning,imagine you are a 10 year old
girl, and you sent this photo.
And now this person says, youknow, do this and this and this,
or I'm going to do that andyou're at the dinner table with
your family. You have 10 secondsto do this, or I'm going to do
this awful thing. And I spoke toparent recently as well who got
involved and was like you needto leave my daughter alone. And
(19:24):
what that person actually said,that predator said, "Well, you
know, if you've try to dosomething about this, I'm going
to make sure she kills herself"and started threatening the mom.
And that's why it's important tofor the family not to feel shame
to get help. This isn't just aone size fits all, one person
goes to one person the problemsolved. This has to be reported
to law enforcement as well. Andthat's where the family has to
(19:48):
stand up and not be ashamed.
YS Chi (19:50):
Right. So I don't hear a tone of you blaming people. So
I'm going to see if we can getyour wisdom around. You know How
do we tackle this? Nowtechnology isn't inherently a
bad thing, but it can, likeeverything be used for bad
things. Every advancement wemake, you know, has a light and
(20:14):
shadow right? So there will betrade offs. It does enable
predators, but it can alsoenable agents and investigators
to catch them. As we know, everyonline transaction is encrypted,
and leaves a digital trace ordigital clues, which then police
and investigators can use tofind the abductors and abusers.
(20:34):
I believe this has allowed themto improve the recovery rates of
missing children. The gamechanger is speed and access to
information. So as someone whocampaigns so strongly for online
safety, what are some of yourthoughts on the tension between
allowing law enforcementofficials to access information
at speed versus ensuringpeople's privacy?
Alicia Kozak (20:58):
Okay, that was a great question, and I love it.
And I'm going to answer in asecond. But I do want to touch
on the victim blaming reallyquickly. Is that okay? Because I
think it's important. Yeah,absolutely.
YS Chi (21:05):
Yes, please.
Alicia Kozak (21:07):
Okay, so with the shame and the potential victim
blaming, because these childrenare truly victims, we need to
remember, and parents definitelyneed to remember because they'll
see that what their child issaying and doing is shocking,
the topics that they'recovering, the conversations that
(21:28):
they're having with thesepredators may be shocking. And
the predator is pushing theirboundaries. And in a way,
forcing them to do that, that iswhat grooming is, it breaks down
your boundaries and your values,and the child starts to make
mistakes. And it can besomething so completely out of
(21:50):
that child's character, andsomething that would shock
society and shock the family.
But please know that that iswhat grooming is. And it is
never that child's fault. Nomatter what they're talking
about, no matter what poorchoices they make. They are a
kid. And this is an adult who istricking them and manipulating
them on purpose to do thosespecific things.
YS Chi (22:13):
Yes, we all need to be remembering that.
Alicia Kozak (22:16):
Absolutely.
Because it's really easy to go,"Well, my kid wouldn't do that".
Or you read a news story, and tojust think that that child is a
bad kid. And that's not the caseat all. Again, these predators
are grooming these kids to dothings that they really wouldn't
otherwise do, or things thatthey're naturally curious about.
It's again, a dangerouscombination of things.
YS Chi (22:39):
So we need to catch these people - we really do.
What is your thought on thattension between law enforcement
having access to information andhaving privacy respected?
Alicia Kozak (22:55):
It's tricky.
Because I don't have an answer,that's an easy answer. And I
wish I did. Because privacy isso important. In a time when we
share just about everything, weovershare. We still need to have
an amount of privacy. And Icertainly want my privacy to be
respected. I want your privacyto be respected. But when it
comes to the protection ofchildren, we have to find a
(23:18):
balance. And I can't saynecessarily what that balance
is. But we need to realise thatthat has to come first and
foremost, that there arechildren out there who are
suffering and in pain that couldbe rescued based on something as
simple as a quickerinvestigation. For example, in
(23:39):
my own case, looking back and atthe very early days of the
internet, again, the way that Iwas rescued is that he had been
live streaming, what he wasdoing to me to other people
online. And there was a group ofpeople who are watching this,
who chose to watch this who areenjoying watching it and my pain
and degradation. But one ofthese people who was watching it
(24:03):
was able to recognise me from myNational Centre for Missing and
Exploited Children poster, andhe ran out to a payphone at the
time, that tells you how oldthis he ran out to a payphone
and he contacted lawenforcement. And he was able to
give one of the screen namesthat the perpetrator used, but
not anything else. He had noother information really. And so
(24:26):
law enforcement was able totrack down the IP address to the
house address from that screenname. And they broke into that
house to rescue me around 4.30and he had left, he left me
chained but he left that day togo to work. And when he came,
when he was going to come backto that house that night, he had
(24:49):
planned to kill me. Oh my. Andso when we look at how important
time is, we're talking aboutseconds and when you think about
a missing child how far they cango, how far to how fast do cars
go? Right? We're talking atleast a mile a minute that your
child is further and furtheraway. And so we need to really
weigh that and what that meansand what law enforcement should
(25:14):
have access to and absolutelyneeds to have access to because
we have to keep kids safe, wecan use the same technology that
is hurting these kids, toprotect them.
YS Chi (25:26):
So I understand that a federal law was presented last
year called ADPPA and that youcame out to raise your voice
about that proposed legislation,can you tell us what aspect of
it you were either supporting,or asking to change?
Alicia Kozak (25:47):
I just really need for legislators to look at it
and realise that it could hinderthe rescue of children and
missing people and other violentcrimes. That that's not
something that can beoverlooked. And I know it is a
difficult area to look into.
There is so much grey space andalso black and white, it is just
(26:10):
very complicated, but that weneed to have those conversations
and we can't ignore it. I knowit is a highly supported bill.
And there are parts of it, ofcourse, that are really
important. But as far as again,we're looking at people who are
being harmed, and most certainlychildren and the inability to
(26:32):
maybe find predators and rapistsand human traffickers and other
violent criminals. Yeah, we'relooking at something so much
bigger than that. And again,we're taking away something that
could help solve such a bigproblem. We'd love to talk about
problems in the world, right.
But we don't necessarily talkabout the solutions. And that's
what I'm focused on. And that'swhat we need to focus on
(26:54):
together.
YS Chi (26:55):
Great. Well, I hope they're listening to you,
because you've been advocatingso long, that we know you're
not, you don't have an extraagenda, other than the safety of
children and their family.
Absolutely. So then what advicewould you have? We've heard
about the issues we've heardabout potential technology
implication, and the legalimplication, what advice do you
(27:16):
have for parents and children?
Is it education? Is it somethingmore than that? What should the
parents be doing?
Alicia Kozak (27:26):
Now, this is a really scary issue. And it's
something that you might think,if I ignore it, I'll be okay. Or
if I talk about it, I'll bringit into my space of reference.
And the fact is that every childcan fall victim, no matter what
kind of community no matter whatkind of family, and that is just
really important to rememberthat this can happen to you, it
(27:47):
can happen to your family, ithappened to me, and I certainly
never thought it would happen tome and my parents, never in a
million years thought somethinglike that could happen to me. So
first, you really need torealise that this is an issue as
a parent, and you need toeducate yourself as much as
possible. And I know that'sreally daunting, and it's
constantly changing. And theseemojis and language and
(28:08):
everything is changing soquickly. It's hard to keep up
with, but that's no reason tonot try. The other thing is that
you have to talk to your kidsabout internet safety. You have
to talk to them about thedangers from the time that they
first touched that laptop orphone, which is very young, I
see like toddlers in strollers.
But you see kids who are soyoung on these devices, and
(28:30):
they've had to have them becauseof again, the pandemic. Kids who
maybe wouldn't have had thattechnology before, have had
access to it. So to talk to yourkids about it, and people ask
me, How do I do that? Well justsit down and talk to them. Talk
to your kids have aconversation. You know, your
kid, you know, your kid best.
(28:51):
Sit down and just have thatconversation. I met a parent
yesterday, I went to an eventand she came home and she said
she'd I'd never met her before.
And I told her my story. And shecame home and she talked to her
13 year old daughter. And shesaid her 13 year old daughter
was like I know Mom, leave mealone. And the fact is that you
might get that response. Andthat is okay. Because they do
think they know everything. ButI've learned just because you
(29:13):
know more and you have moreinformation, it doesn't mean
that you know better. Next youneed to monitor what your kids
are doing, and do I mean toinvade their privacy - kind of,
you have to be able to pick uptheir device and go through it
at any time at any time at all.
And it's not because you'retrying to get them in trouble.
Say you found out that yourchild went to that party they
(29:34):
weren't supposed to or theytried a beer or whatever kids
do, that you don't point thoseout. But if something is really
wrong, you can address it. Soit's not to like keep ahead of
your kid and get them introuble. It's just if that
really horrible thing happens.
You have a tool necessary, butat the same time, you really
can't completely rely on thattool. I see parents who are
(29:55):
like, well, I downloaded thisapp. So now everything's covered
and It's not, you need to havean active part in that. The next
thing and I think it is the mostimportant though, is to let your
child know that they can come toyou with absolutely anything at
all, and you will not punishthem, you will not shame them,
you will not embarrass them. Andmost importantly, you will not
(30:15):
take their device away, becausethat really is their entire
world, that is part of who theyare, that is their social
identity. And you have to thinkabout how hard it would be to
come forward to your parentsabout something that you know,
you could get in trouble for,like the kid who sends that
image and now they're beingblackmailed, and threatened, it
would be so difficult. So havingthat ability for your child to
(30:39):
come to you with absolutelyanything that you'll sit down
together, you'll work throughit, you'll have a cup of hot
cocoa and cookies. And you'lltell your child that you're
proud of them for comingforward, that this is a very
mature thing, you're proud ofthem, and you're going to solve
the issue together.
YS Chi (30:55):
Speaking of together, if this could be done among all of
our community, it would even bemore effective, whether that's
family, friends, school, ourCommunity Polls, you know,
whether that would be you know,a religious institution or
outside school activity, ifeverybody would be aware of
this, it would really have abigger impact than if just the
(31:17):
parents had to try to fight thisalone.
Alicia Kozak (31:20):
Oh, absolutely.
And that's my goal. When I speakto schools, I speak to not only
the kids, but I definitely alsospeak to the parents. Because I
talk to the kids about going totheir parents so their parents
need to have that rightresponse, but also having the
opportunity to speak to theschool staff, the people who
interact with those kids. And itis so important for people I
know, everybody can't be on thesame page, but to have this
(31:42):
understanding of the dangers andwhat that response should be.
YS Chi (31:50):
Well, there's no way to sugarcoat this issue. Kids are
the victims, their families thenbecome victims and our community
is victimised in turn. Alicia, Ican't thank you enough for
spending the time with us. Youare a true inspiration to all of
us. Your ability to overcomeadversity, and then turn it into
(32:11):
a life mission to help others.
This is extraordinary. Thank youso much.
Alicia Kozak (32:17):
Thank you so much for having me. And again, giving
me this opportunity to reachyour audience. This is it's more
important to have a conversationtoday than it was when it
happened to me. And I'm seeingthis by presenting to these
audiences all the time. I'mlearning from them constantly
and seeing what kids are reallyfacing. And we just really need
(32:39):
to be prepared. We can fightthis and we can we can do
something about it. But we haveto, we have to do it. It's not
enough just to talk about it.
YS Chi (32:48):
Yes, exactly. And thank goodness, we have you out there
doing this so that we can all beeducated, because we all have
children, whether our own or ourneighbours or friends or you
know, relatives. We all havechildren and grandchildren that
are affected by this. Thank youso much.
Alicia Kozak (33:06):
Thank you again.
YS Chi (33:08):
If you want to learn more about Alicia's work and
help make a difference. Pleaselog on to her website
aliciakozak.com, A L I C I A KO Z A K.com. And thank you to
our listeners for tuning in.
Don't forget to hit subscribe onyour podcast app to get new
episodes as soon as they'rereleased. Thanks for listening
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