February 10, 2025 • 29 mins
This episode explores the multifaceted nature of effective leadership today, focusing on the alignment of personal and organizational values, the development of problem-solving skills within teams, and the critical need for trust and communication. With insights from leadership expert Irial O_Farrell, listeners gain practical strategies for fostering loyalty and nurturing talent in a rapidly changing work environment.
• Aligning individual and organizational values
• Addressing the shifting landscape of employee loyalty
• Empowering teams through problem-solving development
• Building trust through transparent communication
• The significance of self-care in leadership
• Embracing coaching as a vital leadership skill
• Fostering a culture of performance development
• Understanding the role of leaders in guiding pathways for growth
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Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization or entity. The information provided in this podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered as professional advice. Listeners should consult with their own professional advisors before implementing any suggestions or recommendations made in this podcast. The speakers and guests are not responsible for any actions taken by listeners based on the information presented in this podcast. The podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional advice or services. The speakers and guests make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in this ...
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Turning Point Leadership Podcast with
your host, ron Harvey of GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting.
Ron's delighted you joined usand excited to discuss and help
you navigate your journeytowards becoming an effective
leader.
During this podcast, ron willshare his core belief that
effective leadership is one ofthe key drivers towards change.
So together let's grow asleaders.
(00:25):
Here's Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Good morning Again.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and the Chief
Operating Officer for GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting.
We're based in Columbia, southCarolina, and we're a leadership
firm, and we spend all of ourtime really focusing on helping
leaders be better connected totheir workforce, and that could
be through communication, teambuilding, managing conflict,
diversity, equity and inclusion.
It's just been more effectivefor the people you're
(00:50):
responsible for and responsibleto.
So we love it.
But every single week, I get anopportunity to interview people
from across the globe all walksof life, all different
backgrounds and beliefs and it'sall about leadership.
So I'm really, really excitedthat I get to do this.
But I'm always excited when Iget to meet someone
internationally that comes onthe show and says, hey, let me
share this, doing some of thesame work that I'm doing in a
(01:12):
different location, but reallyhave the same passion to help
leaders.
So I have Ariel, who's going tobe coming in, and so, ariel,
thank you for joining.
I'm super excited and I'll letyou introduce yourself and share
where you are and what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Thank you very much, ron, and I'm delighted to join
you today.
My name is Iri Lo Farrell and Iam the founder of Evolution
Consulting, and I do an awfullot of work with companies that
are looking to, I suppose, bethe best company that they can
be and look at the bestperformance, but the best
getting the maximum out of theirorganisation, their people and
(01:46):
themselves as leaders.
So I'm just always fascinatedwith how do you match the needs
of the individual with the needsof the organisation, and that's
led me on a very merry dancethrough.
I started off in financialservices, in management,
organisation design, learningand development, executive
coaching, change management,writing books all sorts of
(02:06):
different things.
The first book I wrote in 2011,quite a long time ago was
actually a book on values.
I was absolutely fascinatedwhen I became an executive coach
that whole process ofuncovering your own values and
the conflict that can arise fromour values, and so it became my
first book.
It sort of once I decided thatwas the book that I was writing.
(02:29):
It just sort of poured out ofme the values personal values
and company values and how doyou align them and then, in 2020
, when COVID hit, I decided thatI would write my second book on
smart objective setting formanagers, because I have done a
lot of work with managers aroundsetting objectives and they can
often set the what objectives.
You know the deliver X, y and Z, but the behavioral objectives
(02:50):
they really, really struggledwith.
How do you develop people'scapabilities, whether it's
problem solving, whether it'scommunicating better, whether
it's influencing people?
These are much more difficultobjectives to set, and so I did
quite a lot of workshops withmanagers on how do you develop
smart objectives from thatperspective.
So I put all that into the bookin 2020.
(03:11):
And then in 2021, I wrote theManager's Dilemma developing
other people's problem solving.
So one of the things that I hadlooked at was and I suppose I
used the word manager and leaderquite interchangeably, because
to me, they're sort of two sidesof the one coin leading people
but then also kind of helpingthem to put in place the
structures in order that theysucceed.
So I use the words quiteinterchangeably, because your
(03:34):
ideal manager and your idealleader pull from both sides.
So one of the things that Inoted was that managers or
leaders often tend to be verygood problem solvers and so they
get promoted up because of thatand because they get things
done.
So we promote the people whoget things done.
And so what I noticed was theone thing that most managers
leaders had in common that theywere very good problem solvers,
(03:56):
but they weren't necessarilygood at developing other
people's problem solvingcapabilities.
So they would becomebottlenecks because everything
would land on them and then theywould get overwhelmed and
they'd be working on stuffthey're not really supposed to
be working on, which meansthey're not doing their own work
.
You know they're gettingdistracted and they're not
keeping their eye on the balland they're not keep looking up
and out on what's going onexternal to the business and
(04:17):
within the organization.
And so I actually came throughmy own managing and leading of
people.
And so I actually came throughmy own managing and leading of
people.
I kind of started asking thesequestions and noticed that they
were coming to me with problems.
They were going you know how todo this, you know how to sort
this out, and yet they didn't.
And I was like, oh, what'sgoing on here?
(04:41):
And through my own kind of OK,I gave them the answer but came
back the next time.
And so that book came out ofthat whole process of realizing.
Actually, a lot of times, peopledon't know how to develop other
people's problem solving skills, but it becomes a bottleneck in
the organisation and theperformance of the organisation.
So that was the 2021 book, andthen the next one is about
reimagining performancemanagement, performance
development.
I think we need to get awayfrom performance management.
I think we need to move intoperformance development,
(05:03):
particularly in the complexityof today's world.
I don't think there's an awfullot of jobs people can't just go
into and know how to do itwithin a couple of days or a
couple of weeks.
So I think there's an awful lotmore focus needs to go into
developing people and puttingthe time and effort into them to
help them to master their jobs,master their roles and become
(05:24):
more, I suppose, part of theorganization and be able to grow
within the organization.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, I mean you've given us a lot to unpack, which
really excited.
I mean I think that you canbring back your values book,
like right now, and it can be abestseller again, you know.
So you get to bring it backbecause as we look at
organizations in the work thatyou're doing and you wrote that
book around, do you see us beingchallenged where our personal
values are not in alignment withorganizational values, and how
do we address that?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, there's an excellent question because
actually that book I started off.
The book actually starts offtalking about Enron.
Do you remember Enron back inthe day and their stated values
and their?
Yeah, I think a lot of times inmy experience, an awful lot of
organizations they pick thevalues that sound good and I've
(06:11):
never seen this change.
Quite honestly, in the last Ithink I wrote that 2011 like in
13 years, I've never seen thischange.
So it takes a lot of work andeffort to actually put in what
are real values of anorganization, like really what
they're going to stand over.
So we end up with stated valuesand then we end up with actual
values and how we know whatactual values are.
(06:33):
It's the ones that we use tomake decisions.
So if organizations are statingwe have ABC as our values, but
over the other side of the room,they're making decisions using
X, y, z values.
People can see this.
One of my favorite sayings isactions speak louder than words,
so you can have the words overon the left-hand side and on the
right-hand side.
Your actions are sendingdifferent messages and these
(06:56):
need to match because people seethem.
People can go.
That doesn't make sense.
That's not in keeping with thedecision I would expect if our
values truly are a, b and c, andthat takes effort.
It takes effort andvulnerability as individuals, as
part of a leadership team to gowell, really, what are our
values and really are we on thesame page here?
(07:19):
So to get to that point ofactually having real, true
values that we will stand overand make decisions through is
one thing, but then it's tomaintain it, because as we
promote people up, it's so easyto promote somebody because they
get good results withoutlooking at their values.
That's how they go aboutgetting good results.
It's very fragile if we don'tlook after it and we don't spend
(07:41):
time pruning it and making surethat we are promoting people
who are in keeping with thevalues.
So that's kind of often, youknow.
Sometimes you'll get snippetsof times when, yes, they were
our values, but then we don'tprotect them and we let them go
and the people have moved on.
Those values are no longer theones that we're using and again
(08:02):
people can see that.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, and I love that that book was written in 2011
and how relevant it still istoday.
Probably even more challengedtoday because, when you really
think about how do we come upwith them?
And then we have all the peoplein our organization that bring
their own set of values into theorganization.
Is there a misalignment?
Sometimes, because people needa job, they'll go along to get
along, and so how do you getthose people to really buy into
(08:25):
your values when you're totallyon opposite sides of the
spectrum?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, I often say people will acquiesce.
So if we're talking aboutleaders, well, are people
following you Because that's achoice, or are they acquiescing
because they need to pay themortgage or the rent?
So that comes to the leaders.
Are they clear?
Are they imbuing the valuesthrough the organisation?
Are they looking to recruitpeople that are in keeping with
(08:50):
those values?
And then again, if you're in atight marketplace, you might not
have too many choices as to do.
We just need people to show upand do the work and it doesn't
really matter.
Or do we have?
Are there sufficient peopleavailable out on the marketplace
that we can pick and chooselike this?
So you know, there's a fewdifferent elements to it.
A lot of times people willacquiesce if they're clear
(09:11):
around.
They'll follow it and do it.
If they're quite clear aroundwhat it is, that's within my
safeties or my comforts, I cando that, that I can live with,
and it's when they're not clearabout it and going.
Well, if I'm not clear aboutwhat your values are and I'm not
clear about mine, necessarily,but there doesn't seem to be any
consistent messaging and I'mnot really sure what is or isn't
(09:33):
in play here, that's where youget a lot of people go off on
their own little routes.
I'll just be over here doing mything.
So this goes back tocommunication, but again, that
awareness are we aware of whatour values are?
Are we consistentlycommunicating it and are we, I
suppose, setting out theexpectations for people you know
(09:55):
?
A lot of times, when we knowwhat the expectations are, we
can kind of go, yeah, okay, I'mokay with that.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
But if we're not clear around what those
expectations are, that's when westart getting people going off
in other directions.
Yes, yes, the workforce haschanged when it comes to loyalty
to organizations, with so manygenerations and the way that my
parents would stay 40 years andthey just knew they were going
to be there for 40 years.
That's not the environment wecurrently live in today.
How do leaders begin to not getso wrapped Because people are
(10:21):
not loyal like they were, likestaying no matter what happened?
How do you help leaders createmore loyalty in the organization
even though they're not goingto stay 40 years?
How do you create loyalty ifthey stay three years or 30
years?
How do you create betterloyalty and not loyalty to an
individual, loyalty to theorganization or the mission or
what we're trying to get done,versus a person?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
one of the things I mean it was very prevalent with
the, obviously the gen x.
It was quite prevalent ifpeople weren't staying as long
and this kind of pattern started.
But then the millennials camethrough and there was an awful
lot of turnover and they weren'tstaying and they were leaving.
And what was quite noticeablewas the pattern of they would go
to one place they weren'tgetting what they needed and
(11:01):
then they would go somewhereelse and they weren't getting
what they needed.
And they went somewhere elseand they weren't getting what
they needed.
And then they would gosomewhere else and they weren't
getting what they needed andthey went somewhere else and
they weren't getting what theyneeded.
And, quite honestly, I thinkthey thought it would get better
.
The grass is greener, I'll goto there.
And then they realized it's notany better over there.
But my observation of it wasthat they weren't being
developed, they weren't beinginvested in, they weren't being
(11:22):
shown.
This is the pathway.
This is where you need to getshown.
This is the pathway.
This is where you need to getto.
This is the kind of what youneed to learn and what you need
to master and what you need toget your head around to get to
the point where you will be, youknow, doing your job well, and
then other opportunities willopen for you.
So no managers were sitting downand having those conversations
(11:42):
and so they were leaving.
They were leaving because theydidn't have the direction, they
didn't know what was expected,they didn't know how long should
this take, and so they didn'thave managers that were
investing in them and taking thetime with them.
But my take is actually, whenyou start showing people here's
(12:06):
the pathway and here's how longit'll take, and here's what you
need to get your head around andhere's what good looks like and
here's where you need to get to, that People tend to stay for
that because they go oh OK,you're helping me here, you're
bringing me, you're helping mealong this journey.
I also think from probablyyours and my time when we would
have started off in work, thework was much more simple
(12:29):
because we didn't have thetechnology, the levels of
technology, so you were doingthe basic work.
You know they were doing sort ofthe entry level type work which
was do these tasks?
The entry level work is so muchmore complex today because
technology has taken away a lotof the entry level type work
today, because technology hastaken away a lot of the
entry-level type work and so ittakes a lot more explanation and
(12:50):
understanding because youweren't learning the basics from
doing them.
Now you have the technologythat does a lot of those basics
and you're trying to get yourhead around it and go well, what
am I doing and what?
How do I know if this is rightor wrong?
Or you know, and I don't seeorganizations taking the time to
explain it to them and sothey're getting lost.
So to me, if you know, forcompanies that are really
(13:10):
serious about keeping theirpeople and maybe they're not
going to keep them 30 years, butif you can keep them an extra
six or 12 months, that's wellworth it.
These days Our expectationshave lowered.
But you know you keep somebodyan extra year, extra two years,
an extra three years.
That makes a big difference tothe organization.
So double-edged sword.
(13:32):
But I think when you developpeople and give them the time
and show them the pathway togrowth and to develop where
their career can move towards, alot of people these days will
stay for that.
In my experience, yeah, foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
That's listening.
I mean really practical tipsand it's happening.
Technology is there and you'reabsolutely right where the entry
level is much more complicatedthan it was when I started off.
But you mentioned about beingable to develop people.
I mean, you talk about theprofessional development, if you
will, or growth, like reallydeveloping people.
That requires almost a skillset to coach.
(14:03):
So are you suggesting orrecommending that leaders have
to be in a position now wherethey can coach more than you and
I had to when we were coming upthrough the ranks?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
I think so absolutely .
When you and I were coming upthe ranks, the work was much
more tangible in a lot of ways,and even that was less tangible
than, say, 60 or 70 years ago,but it certainly was an awful
lot more tangible.
It was you were doing tasks andyou were carrying them out in a
sequenced order oftentimes, andthat would always say a first
(14:33):
line skill of management.
So you know, team leads, thisis, you know, whatever the
supervisors, whatever thoseterms, whichever the terms that
there's lots of different termsfor that type of first line
manager role.
I think one of the key skills,that type of first line manager
role, I think one of the keyskills of teaching that first
line manager group of people is,on the job, training.
(14:53):
How do you break down tasksinto sort of manageable chunks
that people can, you know, walkthem through and train them up?
And this is I mean, this is oneof my big, big big things and
has been for a long time is thatwe don't teach them to do that
and so the work ends up floatingup.
(15:14):
So because the person isn'ttrained up to do the task and
isn't held kind of accountableor responsible for doing it, the
work sort of floats up andmaybe not all of it, but some of
us and the supervisor startsdoing some of us, and then their
work starts floating up to theassistant manager and the
manager and the head of function, and so it all starts floating
up and all of a sudden you'vegot an awful lot of work that's
(15:36):
being done at the wrong levelsin an organization.
So the organization is, youknow, even it could be very
profitable, but to me it's stillunderperforming because the
work has been done at the wronglevel.
It's probably being paid fortwice, because it's being paid
for the person who's supposed tobe doing it and then the person
who's actually doing it, andthen we pay them a premium
because they're probably paidmore and then they're not doing
(15:58):
their work, so that's being donesomewhere else.
And then there's the knock-oneffects in an organization and
the performance of theorganization gets impacted by
this.
Whereas if we actually teachpeople that frontline manager
work this is how you break downtasks into manageable pieces to
train the people up to be ableto do it that's a core skill
that goes right the way up,because the tasks get more
(16:20):
complex, because oftentimesthey're even less.
You know, functional tasks,functional processes are often
documented.
The more senior you get, theless the processes are
documented.
It's kind of what goes onpeople's heads and whether
they're good at it or not,because organizations often
don't define it anywhere.
They don't just go and get that.
You know, and even you look atjob descriptions like lead
(16:42):
people, you, what does that mean?
When it's a manage, manage likeorganize, oversee, you know
they're all very nebulous wordsand that people are going well,
if you're good at it, you'llfigure it out, kind of thing.
So they're doing it.
But then oftentimes they mighthave been naturally good at it.
They don't really know what itis they're doing to be able to
develop other people to do it.
(17:02):
So all these things again goesback to the bottlenecks.
So if you at least develop thatcore capability in the early
days of management, then you canbring it up through the
different levels of managementto break it down into pieces,
which is ultimately comes downto coaching goal, what it is
(17:26):
what I'm trying to get you to do, and be able to break it down
into its constituency parts, tobe able to get the person or the
team depending to be able to doall of the parts and work
together to deliver the outcome,and whether that's sport or
whether it's business and that,ultimately, is what we're trying
to do with coaching.
But if you don't have theability to break it down into
the constituent parts, which isthe training bit, it's very hard
to help people to be able tostep into and master it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yes, yes, Some of the best executives or leaders that
I know are constantly gettingcoached, but they're also doing
a lot of coaching inorganizations.
They're sponsoring a lot ofpeople or mentoring people.
Somewhere in their careerthey're pouring back into others
.
So I love that you talk aboutperformance management but you
say, hey, I think we're in aplace where it's time for
performance development sopeople can have some
sustainability and growth withthe organization.
(18:12):
Like, if it's changing fastbecause of AI or technology,
then what performance do youneed to develop so they can stay
relevant?
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Exactly, and for the organization to stay relevant,
because it's very costly tobring that expertise in the
whole time, particularly ifthere's not much of it out there
.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Absolutely One of the things that's showing up in
workplaces and you hear itacross organizations.
People are doing employeesurveys on the culture of
organizations.
What's showing up for us in thework that we're doing is a lot
of organizations are strugglingwith people trusting their
leadership team.
It's at the lowest point thatI've seen across the
organization.
How do you help leaders beginto rebuild something that's been
(18:49):
destroyed, even if it wasn't bythe current leader?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Yeah, and the topic of trust and the importance of
it is just so important.
And again it goes back to thataction speak louder than words.
I should probably use it from,is it Stephen M Orko?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, the son.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah, and I do that sort of what's the sweet spot,
what's too little, what's toomuch, because a lot of times
people they're trying reallyhard to understand and get their
heads around.
You know what's the one thing,what's the two things I need to
do, but oftentimes it's, youknow, there's too little,
there's too much.
There's the sweet spot.
So, working with them to toarticulate how are we showing up
(19:28):
as a team, how are we showingup as individuals?
What's the sweet spot of whatlooks good?
And oftentimes we don't talk anawful lot about what's too much
.
We often talk about what's toolittle, but not about what's too
much, and everything has asweet spot and too much of it
becomes a weakness yes and soit's kind of where's the
(19:49):
boundary between we want thesweet spot, but if too much of
it, where does it go too far andwhat's the boundary of it?
And so, even in working withthe organizations, particularly
around the culture, there'salways that piece around.
A culture is not just made upof one or two elements.
It might be made up of 10, 12,15 elements.
And what's be made up of 10, 12, 15 elements and what's the
right amount of each of them?
(20:09):
And where do they cross over?
And values do this as well,like where do they start
crossing over each other andwhere do they start coming
potentially into conflict?
Yes, because you get a lot ofthis and you move into something
else and they start kind oferoding each other.
And so where's the right amount?
So that would be in terms ofworking with the leaders around
(20:31):
trust.
The other thing, of course, iscommunication is just so, so
important, and I will often callout, like how are you going to
convince them that this isdifferent than before?
And so, again, having thatconversation around, you need to
acknowledge that hasn't beentrust, or you need to
acknowledge that this ischanging.
You need to acknowledge thatit's going to be different for
(20:53):
these reasons into the future.
And then you need to stand upand behave in those ways that
convince them that it isdifferent than the past.
I often do that with clientssaying a lot of times people
don't realize they are beingcommunicated to.
So they might say well, we justhad a chat.
You might be saying in thatchat I told you this and they
were going.
I know, but that was a chat,that wasn't communication, it
(21:15):
wasn't named communication, itwas named a chat.
So I often tell people you knowyou need to put up the sign
going, communication coming up,communication happening,
communication just happened.
So it's really, really importantthat leaders are clear that
they are communicating and thatthey are in the process of
communicating and telling peopleI am communicating with you
(21:38):
because intuitively, whatever itis, as humans we don't
necessarily pick it up that I'mactually being communicated to.
They often don't pick up thatthis is different than before.
Some people pick up the culturethrough.
They often don't pick up thatthis is different than before.
Some people pick up the culturethrough the action.
They don't have to have itexplicitly explained to them.
Other people need it explicitlyexplained.
So for those people you need toexplicitly explain in what way
(21:59):
this is going to be differentand then make sure you obviously
do behave in those ways.
Otherwise you're back tobreaking the trust.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yes, yes.
When you think about currentleaders in the workforce that
are getting it right, what areyou noticing?
The most effective leadersdoing that you've had access to
or had the opportunity to workwith.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I think there's two things that spring to mind One,
that they're very solid in whothey are and they're very
consistent in who they are.
And again, that goes to thevalues, that they are very
consistent in their own personalvalues and showing up in that
way, and that imbues the valuesof the organization.
So there's a good alignmentbetween the values of the
(22:38):
leadership team and leaders andthe organization.
And the other is putting in theeffort and taking the time to
reflect around.
What are we here for?
What are we trying to achieve?
Where are we going?
And putting in the time to that, and then the effort to make
decisions and to move towardsthat.
A lot of times leaders don'trecognize, they don't really
(23:00):
accept that they're leaders,they're in senior positions, but
they don't really accept thateverybody else is looking at
them to go.
Where are we going?
Is this the right place to go?
So they don't put the effortinto figuring out.
I don't know where are we going, what is going on.
So the really good ones havetaken the time.
They take the time to assesswhere are we going, what are we
(23:20):
about, how are we going to getthere, and then guide people
towards that.
So, so again, they're veryclear then on their
communication and it makes sense.
It feels joined up, it feelslike you have a good idea of
where we are going and for thesereasons, you're able to talk
about them and that you do hearthem talking about them.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yes, yes, thank you so much.
Can you speak to, before we dothe final two questions,
self-care as a leader, becausewe tend to want to be everything
to everyone all the time, butI'm also noticing a lot of those
leaders are exhausted at theCEO level, so the self-care
piece of it is not happening aseffectively as it should.
Can you speak to that?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, I mean for every leader, I think, having
their own coach where they havethat space.
It's a safe space.
The coach is there on behalf ofthe leader and nobody else.
So they have that safe spacewhere they can talk things
through and figure things outand be challenged in a way
that's safe and that they'vegone down several pathways and
(24:22):
kind of OK, having gone throughdown those several pathways but
having the space to be able todo that, I've come to these
conclusions and then it'scomfortable going out.
The other side is, though Iwould link it back to the
performance again around what'sreally on their plate, what have
they allowed go onto theirplate and what should be on
their plate.
So again, it goes back to ifthe work of the organisation has
(24:42):
gotten out of kilter.
It is very difficult to get offthat.
I would talk about upwardspirals and downward spirals.
So if the work has kind of beenescalated up and so there's a
lot of activities and tasks thatare ending up on their desk
that really shouldn't be ontheir desk, there's the need to
(25:08):
take the pain to put in theeffort to build out the space to
get the work moved to the rightperson's place.
So you're listening to them andkind of feeling sorry and kind
of going to get where you'recoming because it gets
overwhelming.
It absolutely gets overwhelmingwhen it gets too much and
there's more pain that goes intoit.
I did actually.
I'm just thinking back.
I had a, a guy manager.
He was quite senior in theorganization and he had a team
that the more senior people weredoing all of the work of the
(25:29):
team and the more junior peoplewere doing they were skipping
off home at five o'clock everyday while the others were
working, you know till I don'tknow nine, ten, two weeks out of
every four or whatever you know.
And he was just.
But about six months he came toone of my development courses
and about six months later I methim and he was kind of I was
like gosh, that's very unusualto meet you here.
And he was like oh yeah, no,I've tried loads of time now and
(25:51):
I was like what?
And he was like, oh yeah, I tookon everything that we talked
about in that session at thatdevelopment course and
everything was wonderful.
And I said, that's great.
Would you come on to my nextcourse and you just have a chat
with him?
He said, not a problem, becauseI have time to do this now.
So he arrived up and heexplained then gave the how
awful it was and they weremissing their deadlines and the
client was going crazy and itwas like they were working
(26:13):
ridiculous hours and all therest of it.
But then he kind of said, youknow, within three months they
had completely turned it around.
And they said, well, how didyou get the time?
You were working 14 hour days,like where'd you get the time to
kind of do this, to make thisdifference?
And he said, when the 15th houris the one that's digging you
out of the hole, that's the mostimportant one.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So, as you think about all the work you've done,
I mean you shared a lot of greatinsights.
Are there three things that youwould share with leaders that
are up and coming and learningto navigate with all the
differences in the workforce,with the loyalty, the low trust
and AI coming in, you know whatare three things that you would
leave with leaders today thatwould be helpful for them?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Come back to the performance and the development
of people.
I think leaders don't have aclear view of what good looks
like in their organization atall different levels of their
organizations.
I think they struggle with thatand so they struggle with a lot
of the retaining people,developing people, building
trust with people, all that kindof stuff as a result.
So having that clear vision ofwhat does good look like at all
(27:10):
levels of the organization,having that vision there, I
would say, is really, reallyimportant.
The huge one is just taking thetime out to reflect, just
constantly taking time out tokind of like it should actually
be one of the line items and jobdescriptions that you take time
out to reflect.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yes, so thank you for sharing so much great insight
for the audience, the thingsthat they're walking away with
to help them develop, which iswhat we do.
We unpack a lot of great thingsand give great ideas, so if
someone wants to leverage yourservices, you know what's the
best way for them to contact you, so can you share your contact
information and the things thatyou focus on as a company or
someone's interested?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yep, absolutely so.
Evolutionconsultingie is thewebsite and my email address is
info at evolutionconsulting.
All one word ie and the work Ido is I do strategy, structure,
culture and capability the twoS's, the two C's to build better
businesses.
And then I'm also on LinkedInand my books are available on
(28:06):
Amazon.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Awesome.
Are you writing any new books?
Do you have anything new comingout as well?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
My next book is re-imagining performance
management for the 21st century,where I will be suggesting it
needs to move to performancedevelopment.
But I need to get everybody onboard with that one first.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yes, thank you so much, and check her out on
LinkedIn.
No purchase books, because theinformation that she's sharing I
mean leadership is huge.
Every organization will eitherbe sustainable or not
sustainable based on the leadersthat are in those organizations
and how you develop in thefuture of the workforce, because
everybody has a time that wewon't be in those roles, so who
you're developing to carry theorganization forward.
Again, thank you so much forunpacking with us today and
(28:44):
sharing all of that you'velearned over time and for those
that are listening and watching,we drop a different episode of
our podcast every single Monday.
There's a different leader fromaround the world with all
different backgrounds, and ourrole on this is really just to
unpack some things that youencounter that you don't find in
a workshop or you don't find inthe MBA book, or you may not
have even found any courses thatyou're taking.
We tell you real worldexperiences and that's kind of
(29:05):
what I've done this for is wetalk for real and unpack and
have real conversations.
If you ever want to find usGlobal Course Strategies and
Consulting you can find us onour webpage or you can follow me
on LinkedIn are probably thetwo most important places that
you'll find me LinkedIn and ourcompany's website, but thank you
all for listening.
Share the podcast with someone.
We're excited to be able toshare something with you that we
know we learn and we practiceevery day.
(29:26):
So at this time we'll sign offand until next time we'll see
you again on Unpacked with RonHarvey, with another guest every
single Monday.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
We hope you enjoyed this edition of Turning Point
Leadership with your host, RonHarvey.
We're so glad you joined us.
Remember to join us every firstand third Mondays and expect to
receive real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, make adifference where you are and
with what you have.
There are those who arecounting on you for effective
(29:55):
leadership.
Welcome to Turning Point Leadership Podcast with
your host, ron Harvey of GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting.
Ron's delighted you joined usand excited to discuss and help
you navigate your journeytowards becoming an effective
leader.
During this podcast, ron willshare his core belief that
effective leadership is one ofthe key drivers towards change.
So together let's grow asleaders.
(00:25):
Here's Ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Good morning Again.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and the Chief
Operating Officer for GlobalCore Strategies and Consulting.
We're based in Columbia, southCarolina, and we're a leadership
firm, and we spend all of ourtime really focusing on helping
leaders be better connected totheir workforce, and that could
be through communication, teambuilding, managing conflict,
diversity, equity and inclusion.
It's just been more effectivefor the people you're
(00:50):
responsible for and responsibleto.
So we love it.
But every single week, I get anopportunity to interview people
from across the globe all walksof life, all different
backgrounds and beliefs and it'sall about leadership.
So I'm really, really excitedthat I get to do this.
But I'm always excited when Iget to meet someone
internationally that comes onthe show and says, hey, let me
share this, doing some of thesame work that I'm doing in a
(01:12):
different location, but reallyhave the same passion to help
leaders.
So I have Ariel, who's going tobe coming in, and so, ariel,
thank you for joining.
I'm super excited and I'll letyou introduce yourself and share
where you are and what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Thank you very much, ron, and I'm delighted to join
you today.
My name is Iri Lo Farrell and Iam the founder of Evolution
Consulting, and I do an awfullot of work with companies that
are looking to, I suppose, bethe best company that they can
be and look at the bestperformance, but the best
getting the maximum out of theirorganisation, their people and
(01:46):
themselves as leaders.
So I'm just always fascinatedwith how do you match the needs
of the individual with the needsof the organisation, and that's
led me on a very merry dancethrough.
I started off in financialservices, in management,
organisation design, learningand development, executive
coaching, change management,writing books all sorts of
(02:06):
different things.
The first book I wrote in 2011,quite a long time ago was
actually a book on values.
I was absolutely fascinatedwhen I became an executive coach
that whole process ofuncovering your own values and
the conflict that can arise fromour values, and so it became my
first book.
It sort of once I decided thatwas the book that I was writing.
(02:29):
It just sort of poured out ofme the values personal values
and company values and how doyou align them and then, in 2020
, when COVID hit, I decided thatI would write my second book on
smart objective setting formanagers, because I have done a
lot of work with managers aroundsetting objectives and they can
often set the what objectives.
You know the deliver X, y and Z, but the behavioral objectives
(02:50):
they really, really struggledwith.
How do you develop people'scapabilities, whether it's
problem solving, whether it'scommunicating better, whether
it's influencing people?
These are much more difficultobjectives to set, and so I did
quite a lot of workshops withmanagers on how do you develop
smart objectives from thatperspective.
So I put all that into the bookin 2020.
(03:11):
And then in 2021, I wrote theManager's Dilemma developing
other people's problem solving.
So one of the things that I hadlooked at was and I suppose I
used the word manager and leaderquite interchangeably, because
to me, they're sort of two sidesof the one coin leading people
but then also kind of helpingthem to put in place the
structures in order that theysucceed.
So I use the words quiteinterchangeably, because your
(03:34):
ideal manager and your idealleader pull from both sides.
So one of the things that Inoted was that managers or
leaders often tend to be verygood problem solvers and so they
get promoted up because of thatand because they get things
done.
So we promote the people whoget things done.
And so what I noticed was theone thing that most managers
leaders had in common that theywere very good problem solvers,
(03:56):
but they weren't necessarilygood at developing other
people's problem solvingcapabilities.
So they would becomebottlenecks because everything
would land on them and then theywould get overwhelmed and
they'd be working on stuffthey're not really supposed to
be working on, which meansthey're not doing their own work
.
You know they're gettingdistracted and they're not
keeping their eye on the balland they're not keep looking up
and out on what's going onexternal to the business and
(04:17):
within the organization.
And so I actually came throughmy own managing and leading of
people.
And so I actually came throughmy own managing and leading of
people.
I kind of started asking thesequestions and noticed that they
were coming to me with problems.
They were going you know how todo this, you know how to sort
this out, and yet they didn't.
And I was like, oh, what'sgoing on here?
(04:41):
And through my own kind of OK,I gave them the answer but came
back the next time.
And so that book came out ofthat whole process of realizing.
Actually, a lot of times, peopledon't know how to develop other
people's problem solving skills, but it becomes a bottleneck in
the organisation and theperformance of the organisation.
So that was the 2021 book, andthen the next one is about
reimagining performancemanagement, performance
development.
I think we need to get awayfrom performance management.
I think we need to move intoperformance development,
(05:03):
particularly in the complexityof today's world.
I don't think there's an awfullot of jobs people can't just go
into and know how to do itwithin a couple of days or a
couple of weeks.
So I think there's an awful lotmore focus needs to go into
developing people and puttingthe time and effort into them to
help them to master their jobs,master their roles and become
(05:24):
more, I suppose, part of theorganization and be able to grow
within the organization.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, I mean you've given us a lot to unpack, which
really excited.
I mean I think that you canbring back your values book,
like right now, and it can be abestseller again, you know.
So you get to bring it backbecause as we look at
organizations in the work thatyou're doing and you wrote that
book around, do you see us beingchallenged where our personal
values are not in alignment withorganizational values, and how
do we address that?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, there's an excellent question because
actually that book I started off.
The book actually starts offtalking about Enron.
Do you remember Enron back inthe day and their stated values
and their?
Yeah, I think a lot of times inmy experience, an awful lot of
organizations they pick thevalues that sound good and I've
(06:11):
never seen this change.
Quite honestly, in the last Ithink I wrote that 2011 like in
13 years, I've never seen thischange.
So it takes a lot of work andeffort to actually put in what
are real values of anorganization, like really what
they're going to stand over.
So we end up with stated valuesand then we end up with actual
values and how we know whatactual values are.
(06:33):
It's the ones that we use tomake decisions.
So if organizations are statingwe have ABC as our values, but
over the other side of the room,they're making decisions using
X, y, z values.
People can see this.
One of my favorite sayings isactions speak louder than words,
so you can have the words overon the left-hand side and on the
right-hand side.
Your actions are sendingdifferent messages and these
(06:56):
need to match because people seethem.
People can go.
That doesn't make sense.
That's not in keeping with thedecision I would expect if our
values truly are a, b and c, andthat takes effort.
It takes effort andvulnerability as individuals, as
part of a leadership team to gowell, really, what are our
values and really are we on thesame page here?
(07:19):
So to get to that point ofactually having real, true
values that we will stand overand make decisions through is
one thing, but then it's tomaintain it, because as we
promote people up, it's so easyto promote somebody because they
get good results withoutlooking at their values.
That's how they go aboutgetting good results.
It's very fragile if we don'tlook after it and we don't spend
(07:41):
time pruning it and making surethat we are promoting people
who are in keeping with thevalues.
So that's kind of often, youknow.
Sometimes you'll get snippetsof times when, yes, they were
our values, but then we don'tprotect them and we let them go
and the people have moved on.
Those values are no longer theones that we're using and again
(08:02):
people can see that.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, and I love that that book was written in 2011
and how relevant it still istoday.
Probably even more challengedtoday because, when you really
think about how do we come upwith them?
And then we have all the peoplein our organization that bring
their own set of values into theorganization.
Is there a misalignment?
Sometimes, because people needa job, they'll go along to get
along, and so how do you getthose people to really buy into
(08:25):
your values when you're totallyon opposite sides of the
spectrum?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, I often say people will acquiesce.
So if we're talking aboutleaders, well, are people
following you Because that's achoice, or are they acquiescing
because they need to pay themortgage or the rent?
So that comes to the leaders.
Are they clear?
Are they imbuing the valuesthrough the organisation?
Are they looking to recruitpeople that are in keeping with
(08:50):
those values?
And then again, if you're in atight marketplace, you might not
have too many choices as to do.
We just need people to show upand do the work and it doesn't
really matter.
Or do we have?
Are there sufficient peopleavailable out on the marketplace
that we can pick and chooselike this?
So you know, there's a fewdifferent elements to it.
A lot of times people willacquiesce if they're clear
(09:11):
around.
They'll follow it and do it.
If they're quite clear aroundwhat it is, that's within my
safeties or my comforts, I cando that, that I can live with,
and it's when they're not clearabout it and going.
Well, if I'm not clear aboutwhat your values are and I'm not
clear about mine, necessarily,but there doesn't seem to be any
consistent messaging and I'mnot really sure what is or isn't
(09:33):
in play here, that's where youget a lot of people go off on
their own little routes.
I'll just be over here doing mything.
So this goes back tocommunication, but again, that
awareness are we aware of whatour values are?
Are we consistentlycommunicating it and are we, I
suppose, setting out theexpectations for people you know
(09:55):
?
A lot of times, when we knowwhat the expectations are, we
can kind of go, yeah, okay, I'mokay with that.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
But if we're not clear around what those
expectations are, that's when westart getting people going off
in other directions.
Yes, yes, the workforce haschanged when it comes to loyalty
to organizations, with so manygenerations and the way that my
parents would stay 40 years andthey just knew they were going
to be there for 40 years.
That's not the environment wecurrently live in today.
How do leaders begin to not getso wrapped Because people are
(10:21):
not loyal like they were, likestaying no matter what happened?
How do you help leaders createmore loyalty in the organization
even though they're not goingto stay 40 years?
How do you create loyalty ifthey stay three years or 30
years?
How do you create betterloyalty and not loyalty to an
individual, loyalty to theorganization or the mission or
what we're trying to get done,versus a person?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
one of the things I mean it was very prevalent with
the, obviously the gen x.
It was quite prevalent ifpeople weren't staying as long
and this kind of pattern started.
But then the millennials camethrough and there was an awful
lot of turnover and they weren'tstaying and they were leaving.
And what was quite noticeablewas the pattern of they would go
to one place they weren'tgetting what they needed and
(11:01):
then they would go somewhereelse and they weren't getting
what they needed.
And they went somewhere elseand they weren't getting what
they needed.
And then they would gosomewhere else and they weren't
getting what they needed andthey went somewhere else and
they weren't getting what theyneeded.
And, quite honestly, I thinkthey thought it would get better
.
The grass is greener, I'll goto there.
And then they realized it's notany better over there.
But my observation of it wasthat they weren't being
developed, they weren't beinginvested in, they weren't being
(11:22):
shown.
This is the pathway.
This is where you need to getshown.
This is the pathway.
This is where you need to getto.
This is the kind of what youneed to learn and what you need
to master and what you need toget your head around to get to
the point where you will be, youknow, doing your job well, and
then other opportunities willopen for you.
So no managers were sitting downand having those conversations
(11:42):
and so they were leaving.
They were leaving because theydidn't have the direction, they
didn't know what was expected,they didn't know how long should
this take, and so they didn'thave managers that were
investing in them and taking thetime with them.
But my take is actually, whenyou start showing people here's
(12:06):
the pathway and here's how longit'll take, and here's what you
need to get your head around andhere's what good looks like and
here's where you need to get to, that People tend to stay for
that because they go oh OK,you're helping me here, you're
bringing me, you're helping mealong this journey.
I also think from probablyyours and my time when we would
have started off in work, thework was much more simple
(12:29):
because we didn't have thetechnology, the levels of
technology, so you were doingthe basic work.
You know they were doing sort ofthe entry level type work which
was do these tasks?
The entry level work is so muchmore complex today because
technology has taken away a lotof the entry level type work
today, because technology hastaken away a lot of the
entry-level type work and so ittakes a lot more explanation and
(12:50):
understanding because youweren't learning the basics from
doing them.
Now you have the technologythat does a lot of those basics
and you're trying to get yourhead around it and go well, what
am I doing and what?
How do I know if this is rightor wrong?
Or you know, and I don't seeorganizations taking the time to
explain it to them and sothey're getting lost.
So to me, if you know, forcompanies that are really
(13:10):
serious about keeping theirpeople and maybe they're not
going to keep them 30 years, butif you can keep them an extra
six or 12 months, that's wellworth it.
These days Our expectationshave lowered.
But you know you keep somebodyan extra year, extra two years,
an extra three years.
That makes a big difference tothe organization.
So double-edged sword.
(13:32):
But I think when you developpeople and give them the time
and show them the pathway togrowth and to develop where
their career can move towards, alot of people these days will
stay for that.
In my experience, yeah, foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
That's listening.
I mean really practical tipsand it's happening.
Technology is there and you'reabsolutely right where the entry
level is much more complicatedthan it was when I started off.
But you mentioned about beingable to develop people.
I mean, you talk about theprofessional development, if you
will, or growth, like reallydeveloping people.
That requires almost a skillset to coach.
(14:03):
So are you suggesting orrecommending that leaders have
to be in a position now wherethey can coach more than you and
I had to when we were coming upthrough the ranks?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
I think so absolutely .
When you and I were coming upthe ranks, the work was much
more tangible in a lot of ways,and even that was less tangible
than, say, 60 or 70 years ago,but it certainly was an awful
lot more tangible.
It was you were doing tasks andyou were carrying them out in a
sequenced order oftentimes, andthat would always say a first
(14:33):
line skill of management.
So you know, team leads, thisis, you know, whatever the
supervisors, whatever thoseterms, whichever the terms that
there's lots of different termsfor that type of first line
manager role.
I think one of the key skills,that type of first line manager
role, I think one of the keyskills of teaching that first
line manager group of people is,on the job, training.
(14:53):
How do you break down tasksinto sort of manageable chunks
that people can, you know, walkthem through and train them up?
And this is I mean, this is oneof my big, big big things and
has been for a long time is thatwe don't teach them to do that
and so the work ends up floatingup.
(15:14):
So because the person isn'ttrained up to do the task and
isn't held kind of accountableor responsible for doing it, the
work sort of floats up andmaybe not all of it, but some of
us and the supervisor startsdoing some of us, and then their
work starts floating up to theassistant manager and the
manager and the head of function, and so it all starts floating
up and all of a sudden you'vegot an awful lot of work that's
(15:36):
being done at the wrong levelsin an organization.
So the organization is, youknow, even it could be very
profitable, but to me it's stillunderperforming because the
work has been done at the wronglevel.
It's probably being paid fortwice, because it's being paid
for the person who's supposed tobe doing it and then the person
who's actually doing it, andthen we pay them a premium
because they're probably paidmore and then they're not doing
(15:58):
their work, so that's being donesomewhere else.
And then there's the knock-oneffects in an organization and
the performance of theorganization gets impacted by
this.
Whereas if we actually teachpeople that frontline manager
work this is how you break downtasks into manageable pieces to
train the people up to be ableto do it that's a core skill
that goes right the way up,because the tasks get more
(16:20):
complex, because oftentimesthey're even less.
You know, functional tasks,functional processes are often
documented.
The more senior you get, theless the processes are
documented.
It's kind of what goes onpeople's heads and whether
they're good at it or not,because organizations often
don't define it anywhere.
They don't just go and get that.
You know, and even you look atjob descriptions like lead
(16:42):
people, you, what does that mean?
When it's a manage, manage likeorganize, oversee, you know
they're all very nebulous wordsand that people are going well,
if you're good at it, you'llfigure it out, kind of thing.
So they're doing it.
But then oftentimes they mighthave been naturally good at it.
They don't really know what itis they're doing to be able to
develop other people to do it.
(17:02):
So all these things again goesback to the bottlenecks.
So if you at least develop thatcore capability in the early
days of management, then you canbring it up through the
different levels of managementto break it down into pieces,
which is ultimately comes downto coaching goal, what it is
(17:26):
what I'm trying to get you to do, and be able to break it down
into its constituency parts, tobe able to get the person or the
team depending to be able to doall of the parts and work
together to deliver the outcome,and whether that's sport or
whether it's business and that,ultimately, is what we're trying
to do with coaching.
But if you don't have theability to break it down into
the constituent parts, which isthe training bit, it's very hard
to help people to be able tostep into and master it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yes, yes, Some of the best executives or leaders that
I know are constantly gettingcoached, but they're also doing
a lot of coaching inorganizations.
They're sponsoring a lot ofpeople or mentoring people.
Somewhere in their careerthey're pouring back into others
.
So I love that you talk aboutperformance management but you
say, hey, I think we're in aplace where it's time for
performance development sopeople can have some
sustainability and growth withthe organization.
(18:12):
Like, if it's changing fastbecause of AI or technology,
then what performance do youneed to develop so they can stay
relevant?
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Exactly, and for the organization to stay relevant,
because it's very costly tobring that expertise in the
whole time, particularly ifthere's not much of it out there
.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Absolutely One of the things that's showing up in
workplaces and you hear itacross organizations.
People are doing employeesurveys on the culture of
organizations.
What's showing up for us in thework that we're doing is a lot
of organizations are strugglingwith people trusting their
leadership team.
It's at the lowest point thatI've seen across the
organization.
How do you help leaders beginto rebuild something that's been
(18:49):
destroyed, even if it wasn't bythe current leader?
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Yeah, and the topic of trust and the importance of
it is just so important.
And again it goes back to thataction speak louder than words.
I should probably use it from,is it Stephen M Orko?
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, the son.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah, and I do that sort of what's the sweet spot,
what's too little, what's toomuch, because a lot of times
people they're trying reallyhard to understand and get their
heads around.
You know what's the one thing,what's the two things I need to
do, but oftentimes it's, youknow, there's too little,
there's too much.
There's the sweet spot.
So, working with them to toarticulate how are we showing up
(19:28):
as a team, how are we showingup as individuals?
What's the sweet spot of whatlooks good?
And oftentimes we don't talk anawful lot about what's too much
.
We often talk about what's toolittle, but not about what's too
much, and everything has asweet spot and too much of it
becomes a weakness yes and soit's kind of where's the
(19:49):
boundary between we want thesweet spot, but if too much of
it, where does it go too far andwhat's the boundary of it?
And so, even in working withthe organizations, particularly
around the culture, there'salways that piece around.
A culture is not just made upof one or two elements.
It might be made up of 10, 12,15 elements.
And what's be made up of 10, 12, 15 elements and what's the
right amount of each of them?
(20:09):
And where do they cross over?
And values do this as well,like where do they start
crossing over each other andwhere do they start coming
potentially into conflict?
Yes, because you get a lot ofthis and you move into something
else and they start kind oferoding each other.
And so where's the right amount?
So that would be in terms ofworking with the leaders around
(20:31):
trust.
The other thing, of course, iscommunication is just so, so
important, and I will often callout, like how are you going to
convince them that this isdifferent than before?
And so, again, having thatconversation around, you need to
acknowledge that hasn't beentrust, or you need to
acknowledge that this ischanging.
You need to acknowledge thatit's going to be different for
(20:53):
these reasons into the future.
And then you need to stand upand behave in those ways that
convince them that it isdifferent than the past.
I often do that with clientssaying a lot of times people
don't realize they are beingcommunicated to.
So they might say well, we justhad a chat.
You might be saying in thatchat I told you this and they
were going.
I know, but that was a chat,that wasn't communication, it
(21:15):
wasn't named communication, itwas named a chat.
So I often tell people you knowyou need to put up the sign
going, communication coming up,communication happening,
communication just happened.
So it's really, really importantthat leaders are clear that
they are communicating and thatthey are in the process of
communicating and telling peopleI am communicating with you
(21:38):
because intuitively, whatever itis, as humans we don't
necessarily pick it up that I'mactually being communicated to.
They often don't pick up thatthis is different than before.
Some people pick up the culturethrough.
They often don't pick up thatthis is different than before.
Some people pick up the culturethrough the action.
They don't have to have itexplicitly explained to them.
Other people need it explicitlyexplained.
So for those people you need toexplicitly explain in what way
(21:59):
this is going to be differentand then make sure you obviously
do behave in those ways.
Otherwise you're back tobreaking the trust.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yes, yes.
When you think about currentleaders in the workforce that
are getting it right, what areyou noticing?
The most effective leadersdoing that you've had access to
or had the opportunity to workwith.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I think there's two things that spring to mind One,
that they're very solid in whothey are and they're very
consistent in who they are.
And again, that goes to thevalues, that they are very
consistent in their own personalvalues and showing up in that
way, and that imbues the valuesof the organization.
So there's a good alignmentbetween the values of the
(22:38):
leadership team and leaders andthe organization.
And the other is putting in theeffort and taking the time to
reflect around.
What are we here for?
What are we trying to achieve?
Where are we going?
And putting in the time to that, and then the effort to make
decisions and to move towardsthat.
A lot of times leaders don'trecognize, they don't really
(23:00):
accept that they're leaders,they're in senior positions, but
they don't really accept thateverybody else is looking at
them to go.
Where are we going?
Is this the right place to go?
So they don't put the effortinto figuring out.
I don't know where are we going, what is going on.
So the really good ones havetaken the time.
They take the time to assesswhere are we going, what are we
(23:20):
about, how are we going to getthere, and then guide people
towards that.
So, so again, they're veryclear then on their
communication and it makes sense.
It feels joined up, it feelslike you have a good idea of
where we are going and for thesereasons, you're able to talk
about them and that you do hearthem talking about them.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yes, yes, thank you so much.
Can you speak to, before we dothe final two questions,
self-care as a leader, becausewe tend to want to be everything
to everyone all the time, butI'm also noticing a lot of those
leaders are exhausted at theCEO level, so the self-care
piece of it is not happening aseffectively as it should.
Can you speak to that?
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, I mean for every leader, I think, having
their own coach where they havethat space.
It's a safe space.
The coach is there on behalf ofthe leader and nobody else.
So they have that safe spacewhere they can talk things
through and figure things outand be challenged in a way
that's safe and that they'vegone down several pathways and
(24:22):
kind of OK, having gone throughdown those several pathways but
having the space to be able todo that, I've come to these
conclusions and then it'scomfortable going out.
The other side is, though Iwould link it back to the
performance again around what'sreally on their plate, what have
they allowed go onto theirplate and what should be on
their plate.
So again, it goes back to ifthe work of the organisation has
(24:42):
gotten out of kilter.
It is very difficult to get offthat.
I would talk about upwardspirals and downward spirals.
So if the work has kind of beenescalated up and so there's a
lot of activities and tasks thatare ending up on their desk
that really shouldn't be ontheir desk, there's the need to
(25:08):
take the pain to put in theeffort to build out the space to
get the work moved to the rightperson's place.
So you're listening to them andkind of feeling sorry and kind
of going to get where you'recoming because it gets
overwhelming.
It absolutely gets overwhelmingwhen it gets too much and
there's more pain that goes intoit.
I did actually.
I'm just thinking back.
I had a, a guy manager.
He was quite senior in theorganization and he had a team
that the more senior people weredoing all of the work of the
(25:29):
team and the more junior peoplewere doing they were skipping
off home at five o'clock everyday while the others were
working, you know till I don'tknow nine, ten, two weeks out of
every four or whatever you know.
And he was just.
But about six months he came toone of my development courses
and about six months later I methim and he was kind of I was
like gosh, that's very unusualto meet you here.
And he was like oh yeah, no,I've tried loads of time now and
(25:51):
I was like what?
And he was like, oh yeah, I tookon everything that we talked
about in that session at thatdevelopment course and
everything was wonderful.
And I said, that's great.
Would you come on to my nextcourse and you just have a chat
with him?
He said, not a problem, becauseI have time to do this now.
So he arrived up and heexplained then gave the how
awful it was and they weremissing their deadlines and the
client was going crazy and itwas like they were working
(26:13):
ridiculous hours and all therest of it.
But then he kind of said, youknow, within three months they
had completely turned it around.
And they said, well, how didyou get the time?
You were working 14 hour days,like where'd you get the time to
kind of do this, to make thisdifference?
And he said, when the 15th houris the one that's digging you
out of the hole, that's the mostimportant one.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So, as you think about all the work you've done,
I mean you shared a lot of greatinsights.
Are there three things that youwould share with leaders that
are up and coming and learningto navigate with all the
differences in the workforce,with the loyalty, the low trust
and AI coming in, you know whatare three things that you would
leave with leaders today thatwould be helpful for them?
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Come back to the performance and the development
of people.
I think leaders don't have aclear view of what good looks
like in their organization atall different levels of their
organizations.
I think they struggle with thatand so they struggle with a lot
of the retaining people,developing people, building
trust with people, all that kindof stuff as a result.
So having that clear vision ofwhat does good look like at all
(27:10):
levels of the organization,having that vision there, I
would say, is really, reallyimportant.
The huge one is just taking thetime out to reflect, just
constantly taking time out tokind of like it should actually
be one of the line items and jobdescriptions that you take time
out to reflect.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yes, so thank you for sharing so much great insight
for the audience, the thingsthat they're walking away with
to help them develop, which iswhat we do.
We unpack a lot of great thingsand give great ideas, so if
someone wants to leverage yourservices, you know what's the
best way for them to contact you, so can you share your contact
information and the things thatyou focus on as a company or
someone's interested?
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yep, absolutely so.
Evolutionconsultingie is thewebsite and my email address is
info at evolutionconsulting.
All one word ie and the work Ido is I do strategy, structure,
culture and capability the twoS's, the two C's to build better
businesses.
And then I'm also on LinkedInand my books are available on
(28:06):
Amazon.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Awesome.
Are you writing any new books?
Do you have anything new comingout as well?
Speaker 3 (28:10):
My next book is re-imagining performance
management for the 21st century,where I will be suggesting it
needs to move to performancedevelopment.
But I need to get everybody onboard with that one first.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yes, thank you so much, and check her out on
LinkedIn.
No purchase books, because theinformation that she's sharing I
mean leadership is huge.
Every organization will eitherbe sustainable or not
sustainable based on the leadersthat are in those organizations
and how you develop in thefuture of the workforce, because
everybody has a time that wewon't be in those roles, so who
you're developing to carry theorganization forward.
Again, thank you so much forunpacking with us today and
(28:44):
sharing all of that you'velearned over time and for those
that are listening and watching,we drop a different episode of
our podcast every single Monday.
There's a different leader fromaround the world with all
different backgrounds, and ourrole on this is really just to
unpack some things that youencounter that you don't find in
a workshop or you don't find inthe MBA book, or you may not
have even found any courses thatyou're taking.
We tell you real worldexperiences and that's kind of
(29:05):
what I've done this for is wetalk for real and unpack and
have real conversations.
If you ever want to find usGlobal Course Strategies and
Consulting you can find us onour webpage or you can follow me
on LinkedIn are probably thetwo most important places that
you'll find me LinkedIn and ourcompany's website, but thank you
all for listening.
Share the podcast with someone.
We're excited to be able toshare something with you that we
know we learn and we practiceevery day.
(29:26):
So at this time we'll sign offand until next time we'll see
you again on Unpacked with RonHarvey, with another guest every
single Monday.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
We hope you enjoyed this edition of Turning Point
Leadership with your host, RonHarvey.
We're so glad you joined us.
Remember to join us every firstand third Mondays and expect to
receive real answers for realleadership challenges.
Until next time, make adifference where you are and
with what you have.
There are those who arecounting on you for effective
(29:55):
leadership.
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