January 13, 2025 • 33 mins
Connect with Ron
Just Make A Difference: Leading Under Pressure by Ron Harvey
“If you don’t have something to measure your growth, you won’t be self-aware or intentional about your growth.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron's delighted to have youjoin us as he unpacks and shares
his leadership experience,designed to help you in your
leadership journey.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
(00:21):
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Good afternoon, welcome back.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and Chief Operating
Officer for Global CourseStrategies and Consulting.
We're a leisure firm based outof Columbia, south Carolina, and
most of you that follow us knowthat already, and those that
are new to us welcome to theshow Super excited.
This is Unpacked with RonHarvey, and we spent all of our
time really on this particularsession, having a real in-depth
(00:49):
conversation.
It's not rehearsed.
Our guests never know what thequestions are, so we're having a
really candid, open, honestconversation.
I don't know the next questionor the next answer, so hang on
for the ride.
We will have fun with it.
Our organization does one thingreally, really well, and that is
how do we help create asustainable workforce by the
leader getting better.
That's what we do every day,all day, and we love it, and so
(01:10):
I bring guests from around theworld that do different things,
and sometimes they do exactlywhat we do, and we don't call
them competitors.
We cooperate with them to dobetter work together, and that's
important for us.
So I'm excited today to haveMarcus on, who I want to always
do with our guests.
Allow them to share what theywish to share, and then we'll
continue to answer and askquestions.
So, owen, I'm going to hand youthe microphone and let you take
(01:31):
us away and tell us a littlebit about you and who you are,
what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Thank you, ron.
Yeah, I'm known for workingwith men and this is something
I've done for 30 years.
Prior to that, back starting inthe late 70s.
Prior to that, back starting inthe late 70s, I got into
integrative or holistic medicineand somatic, which is body work
, body psychotherapies.
I had an integrated medicalclinic in Scottsdale, arizona,
for like 20 years and then,right before I left, I started
(01:58):
doing men's groups, just formyself, really, because I wanted
to learn how to be better in myrelationships with women.
And one thing led to another andthen 20 years ago, I changed
the model of men's groups andmen's work when I lived up in
North Idaho and I just wanted agroup of real guys just to be
authentic with and feel theysupported me and I would support
(02:21):
there.
Well, that group is still inexistence, even though I'm not
there.
I'm in a satellite Zoom groupfor expats, but we've had over
500 guys in this group orcurrently in the group.
We have six groups and that wayof working with men, which is
based on a lot of the physiologyof stress and the body which we
(02:41):
can get into, is it generatedthree different businesses, and
my current business is calledMELD and you can find it at MELD
, m-e-l-d dot community andcommunity spelled out, and we
work primarily with men, butoften I have women as coaching
clients or we do some co-edclasses for women or for
(03:03):
therapists, where we dive intothis.
You might call it technology ofhow do we utilize our body and
our physiology that we normallyjust sort of have operate often
in a negative way around stress,and how can we turn it around
to ultimately be better leaders,not only for ourselves but for
others.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing what you do and
giving the audience a chance tojust understand who's going to
be sharing and what are yousharing.
And I'm super excited and forour audience you know, I don't
know if I've had anyone as aguest to talk specifically
because there is an importantrole that mid-player society and
what does that look like andhow do we show up?
And so there are a ton ofquestions that's in my head, but
I'll first like to start off.
You're very, very transparent.
(03:44):
You wanted to figure out how doyou show up in relationships.
What was it because there maybe people that are listening,
that may be in that spot whatwas it that made you realize
that I need to take care of me?
First and I started this thingbecause of me, but it's growing
up to something bigger what wasit that you weren't happy with,
or just weren't satisfied withabout how?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
you well, at the time I was dating a woman.
Her name name was Pam, you know, a beautiful woman, smart,
successful, and she you know,really cared for me and I'll
never forget.
We were sitting on my couch andshe said, owen, I don't feel you
.
And then I wasn't arguing, Iwas just trying to convince her.
You know, like it was a debate,I'd give her reasons why, you
(04:20):
know, I was being emotional, whyshe should feel me, and then
she'd say again, oh, and I don'tfeel you.
And I'd give her more reasons.
And then, you know, slowlythrough my dense head, I got oh,
I'm giving her reasons, whichare not feelings.
I might be using feeling words,but I'm not connecting to her
in an emotional way, which isall she wanted.
(04:41):
So in that moment I realizedwhat I was not doing and what
she needed.
And really, I think anyone thatyou want to have an authentic
relationship with needs.
But I didn't know how to do itand one of the thoughts that
popped in my head was oh, maybe,you know, join a men's group.
Oh, I don't want to do that,that's for, you know, weak guys.
(05:02):
You know all those associationsI go.
Well, maybe, if I have a chargeabout not doing it, maybe
that's a sign that I should doit.
Did a little due diligence,ended up creating a group with
probably like 10 guys out of myclinic.
It was mediocre, but it gave meenough to spawn me to do more
(05:22):
groups and that's what I've beendoing for 30 years and it
really did teach me and nowthousands of other men and
indirectly some women, butmainly men.
You know, how do we connect toourselves in a way that's
genuine for ourselves, thatserves ourselves, but in doing
that really serves others.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, phenomenal.
I mean to be, you know,self-aware enough to know that.
Hey, the connection is huge.
And for men, we're not taughtearly age, or at any age
sometimes, how to connect withourselves and we'll be trying to
connect with others before wewould connect with ourselves.
What's the distinction?
Because oftentimes you'retrying to be in this healthy
relationship but you're notreally grounded, you're not like
(06:03):
even connected with what youlike, what you don't like, how
you feel, how you express youremotions, and you're trying to
connect with another human being, which can be an accident
waiting to happen.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, I mean a great example of that and I'll give
you a little on how to shift itwas my partner is a couples
therapist, so we do couplestrainings and workshops, and
then, you know, we're doing aretreat down in Costa Rica
around Valentine's and, you know, the beginning of next year,
and so I'll often sit down witha couple when they break off and
do like a little exercise, andthe guy's really trying to do
(06:33):
sort of what I was doing, youknow, connect with his wife and
she's just getting morefrustrated, maybe pissed off or
just like, you know, whateverI've heard this before.
He's, you know, picking that upand he's trying harder, which
only makes it worse.
So I say, hey, john, can I helpyou?
He goes, yeah, yeah, pleasehelp me.
So I sort of channel what Ithink or feel, he's feeling, and
(06:56):
say it to his wife.
Often she starts crying becauseshe knew it but she didn't feel
it, and he's like dropping hisjaw because, yeah, that's what I
feel.
And then I have him start to dothat, and so the problem
essentially comes from twothings Our stress and trauma
that we've had, you know,individually it could be true,
(07:16):
you know traumatic incidences,but in most cases it's what I
call microtraumas or stressfulevents, and most of them were in
childhood, often around ourfamily and often around what
they call attachment issues,which is really to say how well
our parents were or weren'tconnected with us.
So they really created thefoundation of who we are and
(07:39):
particularly how we connect toourselves and others.
And then, you know, the othervariable is the culture, and
particularly for men.
You know, we all know all thosesayings that we have that sort
of operate in the background of.
You know, real men don't showtheir feelings.
To be vulnerable is to be weak.
You know all those that maybearen't conscious but are
(07:59):
certainly buried in us.
What I found with myself, andyou know all these other men, is
often the way out is firstthrough the body, because, like
most guys, if you asked me yearsago, what do you feel, owen and
in an emotional sense I try tofind the quickest way out of the
room when you know.
If you ask me what I felt in mybody, as I've asked thousands
(08:20):
of other guys, you get aresponse and even if they don't
know what they're feeling,they're not resistant to having
you help them.
So you work with a guy and whathe feels with his body and you
point out things that he mightbe doing, even subtly, with his
body as he speaks, and you startto help him make this somatic
connection and then, almostinevitably on his own or with a
(08:41):
simple question, you ask himwhat does he feel emotionally?
And once he's had that somaticconnection, he knows what he
feels emotionally and he canshare it in a much more
authentic way, not from his headbut really from feeling it.
So you know you might be askingme questions and pointing out
that my shoulders are going upand you know my hands are doing
(09:03):
this and my breathing's doingthis.
There are all sorts ofindications that I might be
getting stressed, and so yousort of point all those out
which I wasn't aware of.
And then you ask me what do youfeel?
And I might go well, I feelstressed, I feel actually a
little scared.
As simple as that is.
That's a huge shift, certainlyfor a man to feel it and to say
(09:26):
it.
And then, when he does it in agroup of men which is the
essence of what we do ourvirtual trainings or live
trainings or ongoing groups areall essentially peer-to-peer.
So when we have a group we getwitnesses and these witnesses
become affirming.
So for a guy, we think that ifwe we're vulnerable, we're going
to be shamed.
But in these emotionally safesituations, when we're
(09:49):
vulnerable, we're actuallyhonored, which is a huge shift
for a guy because when he sharessomething vulnerably and he
sees that other guys arehonoring him, that shifts the
space in the whole room.
Every guy in the room sees ohfor me, taking vulnerable risks,
I'm going to be honored, andthat doesn't happen out there.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yes, I love it.
I mean, you're exactly right.
So, through your practice andall the studies and the research
you've done, as you see society, we're taught to be more macho,
not to share.
How do we help create safespaces?
Because people play sports?
I mean, men are in sports andI'm military, you know so my
military background, even themilitary, teaches us to be macho
, to be tough.
Never let them see you sweat,never let them see you cry.
(10:34):
All the things you're taughtthat was manhood.
How did you begin to make thatshift where men still get to be
men but also be human, if thatmakes sense, Like you get the
yes.
How did you start that?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
journey.
Yeah, again, by getting guys inthe body.
But I think you know the simplesecret sauce is you create an
emotionally safe space, which isreally simple.
So you know, guys like rules.
Be it, you know, these are therules of engagement for a sport.
This is how you play the sport.
You know these are theparameters of the field.
I mean all those things.
That's the goalpost down there,just what you do to the goal.
(11:05):
Yeah, oh, okay, I get that, Ican play with those rules.
Or, as the military inparticular, you know, water
rules.
So guys like rules.
So you give them some simplerules like whatever happens here
stays here.
Confidentiality, you know, andyou can opt out at any point.
You know simple rules ofengagement Guides, get it?
Oh, okay, those are the rules.
And then, once they see therules being honored, it's like
(11:26):
they're all in playing and welike to play on a field that we
understand, in this case, wefeel safe in.
So that's a big thing.
Then what happens is you know,this kind of space or experience
might be sort of abnormal formost guys, which is fine, but
what happens is in these spaces,we teach each other what we
(11:48):
didn't get to learn when we werekids and so you know I learned
a lot about how to be emotionalas a man by watching other men
being emotional, yes, and so Iremember.
You know it happens hundreds oftimes, with one time just popped
up several years ago I was inthe group.
The guy was an attorney.
He's in his first group.
We have the guy that's new sortof check in or you know speak
(12:10):
last.
So we're going around the groupand guys are just doing their
normal thing and saying whatthey feel being.
You know, some are beingemotional, and then this guy at
the end goes I am just blownaway, I just can't believe this.
And so it was like a wholeshift in his awareness of oh wow
, this is how men are meant tobe.
So we need to see that.
(12:31):
So by having guys show it inthe safe space that it's like
someone just dumped a completelynew program into our computer,
like someone just dumped acompletely new program into our
computer.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I love where you're going with this, because
it's not taught across the boardhow to show up where you don't
want to seem too emotional, andmen normally don't hear that,
but they don't want to show upthat way.
I mean it's taught keep ittogether, keep it together, keep
it together, keep it together.
How detrimental is that torelationships where you feel
like you always have to have ittogether?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Well, that's probably the biggest reason that
relationships end.
I've worked with a lot of men.
I've worked with some women,some couples, particularly
through Dolly, my partner, andyou know, and I know a lot of
other couples therapists.
If you ask them what was thebiggest reason that
relationships end's in isbecause they don't have an
emotional connection and ittends to lean more to the man
(13:26):
not having it, but it's not hisfault because of his trauma and
his stress and the culture andall that, but it is, you could
say, his responsibility to shiftit.
It's not that there's anythingwrong with a guy, and this is
one of the first things I tell aguy there's nothing wrong with
you.
It's just that you had thingshappen to you that were out of
(13:46):
your control and you learned acoping mechanism that was your
survival skill, which workedthen.
But now that coping mechanismis sabotaging, particularly
relationships, and then you'renot only not trained you didn't
see things but you were trainedin the wrong behaviors and all
(14:07):
that is collapsing to createthis situation where, as much as
you want to connect with yourpartner, you're sabotaging it.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Thank you for sharing the sabotage, overusing
something that was a survivalskill at one point.
Life has changed in front ofyou, but you're still behaving
as though it was you had toprotect yourself.
How do you work with men thatstruggle with trusting the
process?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
That's a good question.
I think you know seeing otherguys that are maybe a few steps
ahead that we're liking, but youknow I've been trusting and
seeing benefits as from where.
But another way is to get intotrust zone experience Cause one
of the things that happens withguys is we're told directly and
indirectly do not trust yourfeeling not trust your intuition
, do not trust all these softskills and certainly don't
(14:47):
express them.
And so when I go trust them andI ask your questions that are
directing you to connect tothose awarenesses and those
skills and those feelings, andI'm giving you positive feedback
and you're getting your ownpositive feedback.
You're going yeah, this is whatI feel.
And as you start to feel things, what starts to happen is you
(15:09):
literally start to rewire yournervous system and your stress
system and guys start to seethat so often, quickly, they're
being in a stressful situationbecause they've been doing this
work, they're experiencing itdifferently and consequently,
they're behaving differently andconsequently, people are
reacting to them differently.
So, rather than going into thesurvival, coping, stress
(15:29):
mechanism, they're going intookay, maybe I feel this stuff,
because it's not repression ofthe feeling, but the feeling,
the energy, the whatever is sortof moving through.
And people are actually feelingsafe with you because they pick
up and we're trained as animalsto pick all these subtle cues
up to know if that other personis safe.
(15:50):
And so you could be having, youknow, a subtle emotional
experience or vulnerability, butstill being present and
connecting, and the other personwill pick it up.
So what you might be sayingmight be quote imperfect, but
they will sense that you'releaning into your vulnerability
and, almost without exception,people will back off and give
(16:10):
you space.
And I've seen this you knowworking with guys where their
partners, when their man startsto try to feel and express he
might not be doing a good job inthe beginning, but his partner
sees, wow, rather than going tohis head or making it about me
or whatever he used to do, he'sreally struggling with trying to
use these new tools.
(16:31):
He's not using them too well,but he's trying to be authentic
and most people will sense thateither unconsciously or
consciously, and sort of lean inand relax, because when you're
in a stress state, you're in asurvival state, which often
means you're a threat to theother person.
So you flip that and you becomesomeone that's not a predator
(16:52):
but another equal.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yes, let's shift to the professional side of the
lifestyle.
So for men that show up in theworkplace because you know you
show up at home one way and youmay show up at work the same way
.
You may show up different howdo you help the leader, that's,
the man in the executiveposition, get through that?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
A lot of different ways.
I mean, I can just essentiallysay how well is that working for
you?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Well, you know, most of my clients are either
entrepreneurs or, like C-levelexecutives, and they're usually
coming to me because they'resuccessful at work.
Yes, they could be moresuccessful, less stressed, but
really what they're looking foris how can I be as successful at
home as I am at work?
So we work on that and thatstarts to shift within a few
(17:39):
months, and then we almostnaturally start working applying
these principles and skills atwork.
So we work on that and thatstarts to shift within a few
months, and then we almostnaturally start working applying
these principles and skills atwork and by then they're sort of
a convert, and so it's more ofa reinforcement.
But one of the things I mightsay is you do like a 360.
What are other people sayingabout you, listen to their
feedback, and they're going tohave their own projections and
some of it's going to be aboutthem.
(18:00):
But, as you know, and they'regoing to have their own
projections and some of it'sgoing to be about them, but, as
you know, you're going toeventually see a consistent
theme and you start going okay,we all have weak spots or skills
that we're not good at, whichdoesn't mean we have to be as
good at those skills as we areother things.
It sort of means to own it andmaybe and this is another one
(18:21):
that's hard for us guys is toask for help.
Many years ago I was invited towork with Google X, which is our
R&D division, and the COO we'retalking really bright English
dudes and he said yeah, torespond to my question why do
you want us here?
Well, he said these guys areobviously bright, but they don't
ask for help.
So some of the brightest peoplein the world aren't asking for
(18:45):
help, and how that impacts thebottom line.
And so that's just like oneexample of being a leader, of OK
, we're trained to be a leader,not asking for help, not being
vulnerable.
That we got to know everything,we got to direct everything and
sort of be the authority and beauthoritarian.
And getting into teamwork,which I used to teach years ago,
(19:07):
is really being collaborative,and to be collaborative, you got
to be connected to yourself.
And so the guys that are thebest leaders, they lead from
within and they're leading fromthese more subtle, deeper again,
maybe softer or intuitive partsand they're being vulnerable
and they're willing to makemistakes and by willing to make
(19:29):
mistakes they're modeling thatfor their employees, and so,
just as parents teach kids, youknow leaders teach their
employees.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, the days of dictatorship, or command and
control, if you will, is nolonger working, and there are
some people that haven't maturedto hey, you got to be
collaborative, you got to askquestions, you got to be of
service.
How do you get us to be incontrol in order to feel safe?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, I might start to frame it as that's what you
had to do when you were a kidand it worked.
It worked for you as a kidbecause you survived
Congratulations, and it'sprobably been a key to your
success up to this point.
Yeah, Not the only thing, butmaybe a prominent thing is.
But now it's starting tobackfire you at work and if
you're doing it at home, Iguarantee you it's backfiring at
home, and so usually what Ihave to do or we have to do is
(20:21):
take that guy out of the worksituation.
It might be what training we do, it might be one-to-one
coaching, and you can say it'sremedial, whatever, but it's
like we don't learn under stress.
It's very hard to learn understress.
So he's in a situation that youknow as a leader, maybe having
you know a successful company,and so some ways he's successful
(20:42):
.
But to learn this new skill,it's a stress skill.
So it's like me telling you torelax.
You know, when someone has agun to your head, it's not going
to happen.
It's not going to happen, yes.
So we take the guy out and inthese different scenarios, we
work with him wherever he's at,and we basically train him and
(21:03):
his skills that he didn't gettrained in.
It's nothing wrong with him.
It's like going through schooland never getting trained in
math.
It's not that he's stupid, henever got trained in it.
So we train him in it andbecause these are innate skills,
pretty much every guy learns alot more than he thinks he would
in these kinds of safeenvironments and then, because
it's innate and because of howhe's learning it, he's getting
(21:26):
feedback it starts to generalizethrough his whole life and then
he can go back to work and thenwe sort of help him there and
so we go.
Look, it's sort of like a bellcurve.
You might not be really good atthe high point, but we're going
to work the long tails, and sowhere the stress is lower, you
know we'll work on that so thatwhen the stress gets really big
(21:47):
you're in this like flow state.
You're not, you know, in areactionary state.
You could be stressed, butyou're still more or less
connected to yourself andeveryone else, and so the
outcome is going to becompletely different.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yes, I love that you're bringing back the
connection again and payingattention to what's going on
with your body, and quite oftenas men in my experience we pay
attention to everyone else'sbody and we don't pay as much
attention or we'll ignore it.
I mean, the warning signs arethere, we know it's not well and
we'll fake it till we make itor fake it till we break it, but
we tend to ignore the warningsigns that happen, though, as I
(22:19):
probably referenced, there are alot of oil lights coming out of
our lives, there are thingsthat are showing up on the radar
that we see, and we just, ohyeah, I got another 3,000 miles
before that breaks, so we justtry to push through it.
How do we get to a place as mento not feel like I always have
to just push through it?
How?
do I begin to service it.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Wow, I saw that in my clinic all the time.
I got a lot of friends who aredocs and dentists.
We all laugh about it.
It's sort of a sad laugh abouthow guys are and I think it's
changing for the youngergeneration, but it's still there
.
But generally we will not doanything until we have to do it
in terms of taking care ofourselves.
Yes, and I had a good friend afew months ago die because, yeah
(22:56):
, he was an athlete but hewouldn't take care, really take
care of his stress, butparticularly his diet, and he
died of a heart attack at sleep.
I mean, I was the last personhe texted at one in the morning.
Wow, and then you know, I get acall the next morning that he
had passed away.
He had a heart attack and it'sbecause he he like a lot of guys
, even though I was telling himwayne, you got to take care of
(23:20):
this, don't laugh about it, it'snot fucking funny.
Yeah, you got to take care ofthis and he didn't.
And that's what guys do, and inmy clinic they would hobble in
and so it wasn't alife-threatening thing and often
their friend or colleague wouldtell them go see this guy, go
there for years and finally theygo and after a few sessions
they're better and they getupset with their friend why
(23:41):
didn't you have me go sooner?
And the friend would say I dideverything but drag your ass
there.
So that's how guys are.
But again, when we can laugh atit about it and put guys in a
different kind of scenario, theystart revealing it and
divulging how they're all likethat.
It starts to go from being ashame thing to being a funny
thing and we start to own it.
(24:02):
To get back to your question, Ithink just getting guys aware
of their body, telling them it'sa stress response and if you
don't deal with it, this iswhat's going to happen.
But here are some tools to howto deal with it so those bad
things don't happen and actuallyyou get some positive responses
happening for your body andyour health, but really for
everyone else.
(24:22):
And then we're not stupid.
After a while we start seeingpositive responses, so we get
positive reinforcements.
And so what I've seen with guyslike I got guys that have been
in this group for 20 years.
What brought them in finished19 years ago, but they're in it
because they want thebrotherhood, because they keep
working on themselves.
They keep improving and honingit through their support of the
(24:45):
group.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, I love it.
I love that you say you know wedo want the brotherhood, we do
need that connection and thatsupport and I don't think
there's a man that I know that'salive that doesn't need that,
and oftentimes we will pretendthat we don't.
But men need the emotionalsupport, they need the
brotherhood.
You know, I watched, you knowthe right three to do where
women will do a lot of women'sretreats and women's and men we
yeah, you know, and I'm even tothe point of where, hey, I'll
(25:06):
want to go to two people, butI'm not looking for a man's
retreat and women do a good jobof connecting and socializing in
that space.
So, as we begin to come toclose to everybody on their own,
what will be some steps thatyou could take, professionally
or personally, to do better asmen, because your families need
you, your communities need you,your workforce needs you, like
there are people that haveaccounted on us to be healthy
(25:27):
and be at our best.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Well, invest in yourself.
So one of the things is to juststart to realize that the
history of your life and theaccumulation of stress into
chronic stress creates asituation where, to use my
metaphor, you're not idlinganymore.
When you take your rig and youstop at a stop sign, you push
the clutch in, the RPNs is not1,500, it's 5,000 or whatever.
(25:52):
You're burning yourself out.
And this is what my friend did,and you don't know that because
it's been always there.
It's been a gradual progressionor digression, and everyone
around you is doing it.
So just get the concept thatstress is accumulating and
there's a lot of ways to dealwith it.
The best way you know, there'sno drugs that will get rid of
stress, but through the body,everything from body work to
(26:12):
yoga, meditation, to our work.
I mean, there's a lot out thereand you'll see more and more
guys doing it and that isactually a way to cheat.
I like to cheat, you know.
I like to find easy, short waysto get results and I've seen a
lot of guys go down that pathand they just find themselves
being more relaxed.
So, just in general, it showsup across the board in their
(26:36):
medical indices, but also, butalso, you know, at home or at
work they're just more relaxed,which means they have more
resources.
Another one is find a group ofguys that you can just really be
authentic with.
And that's a little hard forguys because we get together and
we tend to BS or we, you know,we all sort of face the TV and
watch a game together and wemight do something together, but
(26:58):
we're not being real together.
Yes, women are sort of betterat that.
But I'll say this one thingwhen guys get into this, they
get into it and they stay withit much more than women do.
So we might resist it, but whenwe find the right venue or way
of doing it, we will stick withit because, you know, we're
getting reinforced, we'regetting benefits and we're
(27:19):
really enjoying it.
And so we get guys that comeinto our retreats.
I remember a while ago we hadthis guy that was ex-Special
Forces, all tatted up yes, greatguy.
And we, you know, we do alittle check-in and he was like
one of the last guys to check inand he says I don't like men
and don't touch me.
We were like all right, at theend two days later he said I
(27:43):
love you all.
I want to hug you, call me ifyou need me.
And he came back to another one.
We all are teddy bears on theinside and we want, and we truly
and there's a lot of researchthat supports this, which you
know, goes against you know, orexplains why guys are so lonely
and how we die of thatloneliness but we all want that
(28:04):
authentic connection and we'renot going to get it at work
Probably not.
We're not probably going to getit in a lot of other
organizations or situationsbecause it's not set up for.
So we need to find, you know,use a little courage to find a
place where you can get that andnot, you know, check a few
places out and be willing totake a risk.
(28:24):
You get nothing to lose otherthan a little time and money and
if you find the right place,you're going to get a huge
return on your investment.
Maybe you do it for a littlewhile and maybe you stick with
it, but it will change your life.
And again, thousands of guyshave done that and you know,
regularly they start to contactme and thank me from years prior
because it, you know, put themin a new direction and then just
(28:46):
to go back to something yousort of asked a while ago.
One of the things that Irealized in terms of
vulnerability is what I callassertive vulnerability.
Women have it, but it's moreunique for a man, and what it is
is being vulnerable, which isessentially what we think it is.
It might not be beingvulnerable like a woman crying
and all that, but being open,really being open to our own
(29:08):
experience and to someone else'sexperience, and being willing
to be affected by theirexperience, but also being
assertive be affected by theirexperience, but also being
assertive.
So, rather than collapsingwhich is what, yeah, as men, we
don't want to do and so we justwrite off vulnerability entirely
but because being vulnerable isbeing weak, and I'm saying and
you, I'm sure, saw it in themilitary with guys being
(29:30):
vulnerable, I mean, you know,going into a line of fire to
save your buddy is being veryvulnerable, yes, but that's a
huge act of courage.
And that's essentially what I'mtalking about.
Is being vulnerable, feeling afeeling, the fear or whatever
else you're feeling and takingaction at the same time the
chronic stress, or what we calla freeze response by feeling the
(29:59):
vulnerability and otherfeelings and taking action at
the same time, and you'reshowing other people.
This is like the epitome ofbeing an effective leader that,
oh, he's not a threat.
You know, ron's beingvulnerable.
Maybe he's sharing his feelings, but he's not letting his
feelings take him out and he'snot being reactionary.
He's just being himself andhe's not letting his feelings
take him out.
(30:19):
And he's not being reactionary,he's just being himself and
he's taking risks that might notprove out to be successful.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yes, yes, I mean, you're spot on.
I mean that's really you know.
What you tapped into just thenis how I show up on stages.
I'm pretty transparent and Iallow my feelings to show up and
that I'm human and what wasfrustrating or what was hurting
or what was painful and what wasfrustrating or what was hurting
or what was painful?
And people are plucking towardsyou after that like, wow,
you're really transparent.
You know, I was feeling that, Iwas thinking that I had gone
through that, but I didn't havethe courage to say it in the
(30:44):
room like you do.
Thank you for the invitationfor me to be able to speak to
whatever I may be feeling Mostmen.
If you ask them a feeling word,they'll give you an action word
, not a filler word, in theirresponse yeah, how are you
feeling?
Oh, I got to go to work.
No, no, not what you have to do.
How are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
No, don't even care.
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
That's been phenomenal.
I love the information youshare, or is there anything that
you're doing for your companyor your program that you're
running that you can highlight,and how do people locate you or
connect with you?
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, they can find us at meld.
M-e-l-d dot community spelledout.
We're doing a few things.
We have like a introductory 10week course, which is, you know,
a few hours a week.
It's virtual, it's guys love it.
It's a program I first created10 years ago and we kept on
improving it over the years.
They did some significantresearch on it about a year ago.
(31:36):
It took them a couple of yearsto do.
It got published a few monthsago in the APA Journal about how
effective this program is.
So that's a great intro for guys.
I have group coaching, I haveindividual coaching, but also
we're going back to doing livetrainings, which I love doing,
our team loves doing and guysjust love it.
It's always a little scary toshow up because in theory, you
(31:56):
don't know what you're showingup for.
But yeah, we have the ABC Newsapp, one I did a while ago.
I mean it's a powerfulexperience.
It's a lot of fun and safe forguys.
The bottom line you can learnall this stuff in your head, but
you need to put yourself intosituations where you have
experiences, because it's theexperience that's going to teach
(32:17):
you.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yes, yes, I totally agree.
Information is great, butimplementation of that
information is through some kindof experience.
So I'm glad that you're outthere, that people are getting
to.
Are you also on LinkedIn oranything else, or is it best
just to go through the mail?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Oh yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, our company's on
LinkedIn and Instagram, and,yeah, we're on all that and we
post some of the stuff.
And we have a free newsletterthat's open for men and women
that I write every week.
It has a lot of differentcontent on it.
And then we have freemembership for men.
We have this community whereguys can just connect and right
(32:50):
now it's just free for men.
Yeah, we appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Well, it has been a pleasure.
And to all of our guests thatfollow us and that pay attention
and listen to our podcast,thank you for joining us.
I mean, you had a phenomenaltime, great information.
And for the men, this segmentand this session was really
speaking to you.
So, our women, we'll be backanother time that we'll put some
focus on you, but today wasreally focused on what is it.
And for the women, that arerenshared about the man that you
(33:18):
reveal a relationship with.
Thank you all for joining us.
Again, this is Ron HarveyUnpacked with Ron Harvey podcast
.
Thank you for joining us anduntil next time.
Y'all have a wonderful day anda wonderful week.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(33:49):
matter.
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host
leadership consultant, ronHarvey of Global Core Strategies
and Consulting.
Ron's delighted to have youjoin us as he unpacks and shares
his leadership experience,designed to help you in your
leadership journey.
Ron believes that leadership isthe fundamental driver towards
making a difference.
(00:21):
So now to find out more of whatit means to unpack leadership,
here's your host, ron Harvey.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Good afternoon, welcome back.
This is Ron Harvey, the VicePresident and Chief Operating
Officer for Global CourseStrategies and Consulting.
We're a leisure firm based outof Columbia, south Carolina, and
most of you that follow us knowthat already, and those that
are new to us welcome to theshow Super excited.
This is Unpacked with RonHarvey, and we spent all of our
time really on this particularsession, having a real in-depth
(00:49):
conversation.
It's not rehearsed.
Our guests never know what thequestions are, so we're having a
really candid, open, honestconversation.
I don't know the next questionor the next answer, so hang on
for the ride.
We will have fun with it.
Our organization does one thingreally, really well, and that is
how do we help create asustainable workforce by the
leader getting better.
That's what we do every day,all day, and we love it, and so
(01:10):
I bring guests from around theworld that do different things,
and sometimes they do exactlywhat we do, and we don't call
them competitors.
We cooperate with them to dobetter work together, and that's
important for us.
So I'm excited today to haveMarcus on, who I want to always
do with our guests.
Allow them to share what theywish to share, and then we'll
continue to answer and askquestions.
So, owen, I'm going to hand youthe microphone and let you take
(01:31):
us away and tell us a littlebit about you and who you are,
what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Thank you, ron.
Yeah, I'm known for workingwith men and this is something
I've done for 30 years.
Prior to that, back starting inthe late 70s.
Prior to that, back starting inthe late 70s, I got into
integrative or holistic medicineand somatic, which is body work
, body psychotherapies.
I had an integrated medicalclinic in Scottsdale, arizona,
for like 20 years and then,right before I left, I started
(01:58):
doing men's groups, just formyself, really, because I wanted
to learn how to be better in myrelationships with women.
And one thing led to another andthen 20 years ago, I changed
the model of men's groups andmen's work when I lived up in
North Idaho and I just wanted agroup of real guys just to be
authentic with and feel theysupported me and I would support
(02:21):
there.
Well, that group is still inexistence, even though I'm not
there.
I'm in a satellite Zoom groupfor expats, but we've had over
500 guys in this group orcurrently in the group.
We have six groups and that wayof working with men, which is
based on a lot of the physiologyof stress and the body which we
(02:41):
can get into, is it generatedthree different businesses, and
my current business is calledMELD and you can find it at MELD
, m-e-l-d dot community andcommunity spelled out, and we
work primarily with men, butoften I have women as coaching
clients or we do some co-edclasses for women or for
(03:03):
therapists, where we dive intothis.
You might call it technology ofhow do we utilize our body and
our physiology that we normallyjust sort of have operate often
in a negative way around stress,and how can we turn it around
to ultimately be better leaders,not only for ourselves but for
others.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing what you do and
giving the audience a chance tojust understand who's going to
be sharing and what are yousharing.
And I'm super excited and forour audience you know, I don't
know if I've had anyone as aguest to talk specifically
because there is an importantrole that mid-player society and
what does that look like andhow do we show up?
And so there are a ton ofquestions that's in my head, but
I'll first like to start off.
You're very, very transparent.
(03:44):
You wanted to figure out how doyou show up in relationships.
What was it because there maybe people that are listening,
that may be in that spot whatwas it that made you realize
that I need to take care of me?
First and I started this thingbecause of me, but it's growing
up to something bigger what wasit that you weren't happy with,
or just weren't satisfied withabout how?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
you well, at the time I was dating a woman.
Her name name was Pam, you know, a beautiful woman, smart,
successful, and she you know,really cared for me and I'll
never forget.
We were sitting on my couch andshe said, owen, I don't feel you
.
And then I wasn't arguing, Iwas just trying to convince her.
You know, like it was a debate,I'd give her reasons why, you
(04:20):
know, I was being emotional, whyshe should feel me, and then
she'd say again, oh, and I don'tfeel you.
And I'd give her more reasons.
And then, you know, slowlythrough my dense head, I got oh,
I'm giving her reasons, whichare not feelings.
I might be using feeling words,but I'm not connecting to her
in an emotional way, which isall she wanted.
(04:41):
So in that moment I realizedwhat I was not doing and what
she needed.
And really, I think anyone thatyou want to have an authentic
relationship with needs.
But I didn't know how to do itand one of the thoughts that
popped in my head was oh, maybe,you know, join a men's group.
Oh, I don't want to do that,that's for, you know, weak guys.
(05:02):
You know all those associationsI go.
Well, maybe, if I have a chargeabout not doing it, maybe
that's a sign that I should doit.
Did a little due diligence,ended up creating a group with
probably like 10 guys out of myclinic.
It was mediocre, but it gave meenough to spawn me to do more
(05:22):
groups and that's what I've beendoing for 30 years and it
really did teach me and nowthousands of other men and
indirectly some women, butmainly men.
You know, how do we connect toourselves in a way that's
genuine for ourselves, thatserves ourselves, but in doing
that really serves others.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, phenomenal.
I mean to be, you know,self-aware enough to know that.
Hey, the connection is huge.
And for men, we're not taughtearly age, or at any age
sometimes, how to connect withourselves and we'll be trying to
connect with others before wewould connect with ourselves.
What's the distinction?
Because oftentimes you'retrying to be in this healthy
relationship but you're notreally grounded, you're not like
(06:03):
even connected with what youlike, what you don't like, how
you feel, how you express youremotions, and you're trying to
connect with another human being, which can be an accident
waiting to happen.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, I mean a great example of that and I'll give
you a little on how to shift itwas my partner is a couples
therapist, so we do couplestrainings and workshops, and
then, you know, we're doing aretreat down in Costa Rica
around Valentine's and, you know, the beginning of next year,
and so I'll often sit down witha couple when they break off and
do like a little exercise, andthe guy's really trying to do
(06:33):
sort of what I was doing, youknow, connect with his wife and
she's just getting morefrustrated, maybe pissed off or
just like, you know, whateverI've heard this before.
He's, you know, picking that upand he's trying harder, which
only makes it worse.
So I say, hey, john, can I helpyou?
He goes, yeah, yeah, pleasehelp me.
So I sort of channel what Ithink or feel, he's feeling, and
(06:56):
say it to his wife.
Often she starts crying becauseshe knew it but she didn't feel
it, and he's like dropping hisjaw because, yeah, that's what I
feel.
And then I have him start to dothat, and so the problem
essentially comes from twothings Our stress and trauma
that we've had, you know,individually it could be true,
(07:16):
you know traumatic incidences,but in most cases it's what I
call microtraumas or stressfulevents, and most of them were in
childhood, often around ourfamily and often around what
they call attachment issues,which is really to say how well
our parents were or weren'tconnected with us.
So they really created thefoundation of who we are and
(07:39):
particularly how we connect toourselves and others.
And then, you know, the othervariable is the culture, and
particularly for men.
You know, we all know all thosesayings that we have that sort
of operate in the background of.
You know, real men don't showtheir feelings.
To be vulnerable is to be weak.
You know all those that maybearen't conscious but are
(07:59):
certainly buried in us.
What I found with myself, andyou know all these other men, is
often the way out is firstthrough the body, because, like
most guys, if you asked me yearsago, what do you feel, owen and
in an emotional sense I try tofind the quickest way out of the
room when you know.
If you ask me what I felt in mybody, as I've asked thousands
(08:20):
of other guys, you get aresponse and even if they don't
know what they're feeling,they're not resistant to having
you help them.
So you work with a guy and whathe feels with his body and you
point out things that he mightbe doing, even subtly, with his
body as he speaks, and you startto help him make this somatic
connection and then, almostinevitably on his own or with a
(08:41):
simple question, you ask himwhat does he feel emotionally?
And once he's had that somaticconnection, he knows what he
feels emotionally and he canshare it in a much more
authentic way, not from his headbut really from feeling it.
So you know you might be askingme questions and pointing out
that my shoulders are going upand you know my hands are doing
(09:03):
this and my breathing's doingthis.
There are all sorts ofindications that I might be
getting stressed, and so yousort of point all those out
which I wasn't aware of.
And then you ask me what do youfeel?
And I might go well, I feelstressed, I feel actually a
little scared.
As simple as that is.
That's a huge shift, certainlyfor a man to feel it and to say
(09:26):
it.
And then, when he does it in agroup of men which is the
essence of what we do ourvirtual trainings or live
trainings or ongoing groups areall essentially peer-to-peer.
So when we have a group we getwitnesses and these witnesses
become affirming.
So for a guy, we think that ifwe we're vulnerable, we're going
to be shamed.
But in these emotionally safesituations, when we're
(09:49):
vulnerable, we're actuallyhonored, which is a huge shift
for a guy because when he sharessomething vulnerably and he
sees that other guys arehonoring him, that shifts the
space in the whole room.
Every guy in the room sees ohfor me, taking vulnerable risks,
I'm going to be honored, andthat doesn't happen out there.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yes, I love it.
I mean, you're exactly right.
So, through your practice andall the studies and the research
you've done, as you see society, we're taught to be more macho,
not to share.
How do we help create safespaces?
Because people play sports?
I mean, men are in sports andI'm military, you know so my
military background, even themilitary, teaches us to be macho
, to be tough.
Never let them see you sweat,never let them see you cry.
(10:34):
All the things you're taughtthat was manhood.
How did you begin to make thatshift where men still get to be
men but also be human, if thatmakes sense, Like you get the
yes.
How did you start that?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
journey.
Yeah, again, by getting guys inthe body.
But I think you know the simplesecret sauce is you create an
emotionally safe space, which isreally simple.
So you know, guys like rules.
Be it, you know, these are therules of engagement for a sport.
This is how you play the sport.
You know these are theparameters of the field.
I mean all those things.
That's the goalpost down there,just what you do to the goal.
(11:05):
Yeah, oh, okay, I get that, Ican play with those rules.
Or, as the military inparticular, you know, water
rules.
So guys like rules.
So you give them some simplerules like whatever happens here
stays here.
Confidentiality, you know, andyou can opt out at any point.
You know simple rules ofengagement Guides, get it?
Oh, okay, those are the rules.
And then, once they see therules being honored, it's like
(11:26):
they're all in playing and welike to play on a field that we
understand, in this case, wefeel safe in.
So that's a big thing.
Then what happens is you know,this kind of space or experience
might be sort of abnormal formost guys, which is fine, but
what happens is in these spaces,we teach each other what we
(11:48):
didn't get to learn when we werekids and so you know I learned
a lot about how to be emotionalas a man by watching other men
being emotional, yes, and so Iremember.
You know it happens hundreds oftimes, with one time just popped
up several years ago I was inthe group.
The guy was an attorney.
He's in his first group.
We have the guy that's new sortof check in or you know speak
(12:10):
last.
So we're going around the groupand guys are just doing their
normal thing and saying whatthey feel being.
You know, some are beingemotional, and then this guy at
the end goes I am just blownaway, I just can't believe this.
And so it was like a wholeshift in his awareness of oh wow
, this is how men are meant tobe.
So we need to see that.
(12:31):
So by having guys show it inthe safe space that it's like
someone just dumped a completelynew program into our computer,
like someone just dumped acompletely new program into our
computer.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, I love where you're going with this, because
it's not taught across the boardhow to show up where you don't
want to seem too emotional, andmen normally don't hear that,
but they don't want to show upthat way.
I mean it's taught keep ittogether, keep it together, keep
it together, keep it together.
How detrimental is that torelationships where you feel
like you always have to have ittogether?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Well, that's probably the biggest reason that
relationships end.
I've worked with a lot of men.
I've worked with some women,some couples, particularly
through Dolly, my partner, andyou know, and I know a lot of
other couples therapists.
If you ask them what was thebiggest reason that
relationships end's in isbecause they don't have an
emotional connection and ittends to lean more to the man
(13:26):
not having it, but it's not hisfault because of his trauma and
his stress and the culture andall that, but it is, you could
say, his responsibility to shiftit.
It's not that there's anythingwrong with a guy, and this is
one of the first things I tell aguy there's nothing wrong with
you.
It's just that you had thingshappen to you that were out of
(13:46):
your control and you learned acoping mechanism that was your
survival skill, which workedthen.
But now that coping mechanismis sabotaging, particularly
relationships, and then you'renot only not trained you didn't
see things but you were trainedin the wrong behaviors and all
(14:07):
that is collapsing to createthis situation where, as much as
you want to connect with yourpartner, you're sabotaging it.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Thank you for sharing the sabotage, overusing
something that was a survivalskill at one point.
Life has changed in front ofyou, but you're still behaving
as though it was you had toprotect yourself.
How do you work with men thatstruggle with trusting the
process?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
That's a good question.
I think you know seeing otherguys that are maybe a few steps
ahead that we're liking, but youknow I've been trusting and
seeing benefits as from where.
But another way is to get intotrust zone experience Cause one
of the things that happens withguys is we're told directly and
indirectly do not trust yourfeeling not trust your intuition
, do not trust all these softskills and certainly don't
(14:47):
express them.
And so when I go trust them andI ask your questions that are
directing you to connect tothose awarenesses and those
skills and those feelings, andI'm giving you positive feedback
and you're getting your ownpositive feedback.
You're going yeah, this is whatI feel.
And as you start to feel things, what starts to happen is you
(15:09):
literally start to rewire yournervous system and your stress
system and guys start to seethat so often, quickly, they're
being in a stressful situationbecause they've been doing this
work, they're experiencing itdifferently and consequently,
they're behaving differently andconsequently, people are
reacting to them differently.
So, rather than going into thesurvival, coping, stress
(15:29):
mechanism, they're going intookay, maybe I feel this stuff,
because it's not repression ofthe feeling, but the feeling,
the energy, the whatever is sortof moving through.
And people are actually feelingsafe with you because they pick
up and we're trained as animalsto pick all these subtle cues
up to know if that other personis safe.
(15:50):
And so you could be having, youknow, a subtle emotional
experience or vulnerability, butstill being present and
connecting, and the other personwill pick it up.
So what you might be sayingmight be quote imperfect, but
they will sense that you'releaning into your vulnerability
and, almost without exception,people will back off and give
(16:10):
you space.
And I've seen this you knowworking with guys where their
partners, when their man startsto try to feel and express he
might not be doing a good job inthe beginning, but his partner
sees, wow, rather than going tohis head or making it about me
or whatever he used to do, he'sreally struggling with trying to
use these new tools.
(16:31):
He's not using them too well,but he's trying to be authentic
and most people will sense thateither unconsciously or
consciously, and sort of lean inand relax, because when you're
in a stress state, you're in asurvival state, which often
means you're a threat to theother person.
So you flip that and you becomesomeone that's not a predator
(16:52):
but another equal.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yes, let's shift to the professional side of the
lifestyle.
So for men that show up in theworkplace because you know you
show up at home one way and youmay show up at work the same way
.
You may show up different howdo you help the leader, that's,
the man in the executiveposition, get through that?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
A lot of different ways.
I mean, I can just essentiallysay how well is that working for
you?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Well, you know, most of my clients are either
entrepreneurs or, like C-levelexecutives, and they're usually
coming to me because they'resuccessful at work.
Yes, they could be moresuccessful, less stressed, but
really what they're looking foris how can I be as successful at
home as I am at work?
So we work on that and thatstarts to shift within a few
(17:39):
months, and then we almostnaturally start working applying
these principles and skills atwork.
So we work on that and thatstarts to shift within a few
months, and then we almostnaturally start working applying
these principles and skills atwork and by then they're sort of
a convert, and so it's more ofa reinforcement.
But one of the things I mightsay is you do like a 360.
What are other people sayingabout you, listen to their
feedback, and they're going tohave their own projections and
some of it's going to be aboutthem.
(18:00):
But, as you know, and they'regoing to have their own
projections and some of it'sgoing to be about them, but, as
you know, you're going toeventually see a consistent
theme and you start going okay,we all have weak spots or skills
that we're not good at, whichdoesn't mean we have to be as
good at those skills as we areother things.
It sort of means to own it andmaybe and this is another one
(18:21):
that's hard for us guys is toask for help.
Many years ago I was invited towork with Google X, which is our
R&D division, and the COO we'retalking really bright English
dudes and he said yeah, torespond to my question why do
you want us here?
Well, he said these guys areobviously bright, but they don't
ask for help.
So some of the brightest peoplein the world aren't asking for
(18:45):
help, and how that impacts thebottom line.
And so that's just like oneexample of being a leader, of OK
, we're trained to be a leader,not asking for help, not being
vulnerable.
That we got to know everything,we got to direct everything and
sort of be the authority and beauthoritarian.
And getting into teamwork,which I used to teach years ago,
(19:07):
is really being collaborative,and to be collaborative, you got
to be connected to yourself.
And so the guys that are thebest leaders, they lead from
within and they're leading fromthese more subtle, deeper again,
maybe softer or intuitive partsand they're being vulnerable
and they're willing to makemistakes and by willing to make
(19:29):
mistakes they're modeling thatfor their employees, and so,
just as parents teach kids, youknow leaders teach their
employees.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, the days of dictatorship, or command and
control, if you will, is nolonger working, and there are
some people that haven't maturedto hey, you got to be
collaborative, you got to askquestions, you got to be of
service.
How do you get us to be incontrol in order to feel safe?
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Yeah, I might start to frame it as that's what you
had to do when you were a kidand it worked.
It worked for you as a kidbecause you survived
Congratulations, and it'sprobably been a key to your
success up to this point.
Yeah, Not the only thing, butmaybe a prominent thing is.
But now it's starting tobackfire you at work and if
you're doing it at home, Iguarantee you it's backfiring at
home, and so usually what Ihave to do or we have to do is
(20:21):
take that guy out of the worksituation.
It might be what training we do, it might be one-to-one
coaching, and you can say it'sremedial, whatever, but it's
like we don't learn under stress.
It's very hard to learn understress.
So he's in a situation that youknow as a leader, maybe having
you know a successful company,and so some ways he's successful
(20:42):
.
But to learn this new skill,it's a stress skill.
So it's like me telling you torelax.
You know, when someone has agun to your head, it's not going
to happen.
It's not going to happen, yes.
So we take the guy out and inthese different scenarios, we
work with him wherever he's at,and we basically train him and
(21:03):
his skills that he didn't gettrained in.
It's nothing wrong with him.
It's like going through schooland never getting trained in
math.
It's not that he's stupid, henever got trained in it.
So we train him in it andbecause these are innate skills,
pretty much every guy learns alot more than he thinks he would
in these kinds of safeenvironments and then, because
it's innate and because of howhe's learning it, he's getting
(21:26):
feedback it starts to generalizethrough his whole life and then
he can go back to work and thenwe sort of help him there and
so we go.
Look, it's sort of like a bellcurve.
You might not be really good atthe high point, but we're going
to work the long tails, and sowhere the stress is lower, you
know we'll work on that so thatwhen the stress gets really big
(21:47):
you're in this like flow state.
You're not, you know, in areactionary state.
You could be stressed, butyou're still more or less
connected to yourself andeveryone else, and so the
outcome is going to becompletely different.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yes, I love that you're bringing back the
connection again and payingattention to what's going on
with your body, and quite oftenas men in my experience we pay
attention to everyone else'sbody and we don't pay as much
attention or we'll ignore it.
I mean, the warning signs arethere, we know it's not well and
we'll fake it till we make itor fake it till we break it, but
we tend to ignore the warningsigns that happen, though, as I
(22:19):
probably referenced, there are alot of oil lights coming out of
our lives, there are thingsthat are showing up on the radar
that we see, and we just, ohyeah, I got another 3,000 miles
before that breaks, so we justtry to push through it.
How do we get to a place as mento not feel like I always have
to just push through it?
How?
do I begin to service it.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Wow, I saw that in my clinic all the time.
I got a lot of friends who aredocs and dentists.
We all laugh about it.
It's sort of a sad laugh abouthow guys are and I think it's
changing for the youngergeneration, but it's still there
.
But generally we will not doanything until we have to do it
in terms of taking care ofourselves.
Yes, and I had a good friend afew months ago die because, yeah
(22:56):
, he was an athlete but hewouldn't take care, really take
care of his stress, butparticularly his diet, and he
died of a heart attack at sleep.
I mean, I was the last personhe texted at one in the morning.
Wow, and then you know, I get acall the next morning that he
had passed away.
He had a heart attack and it'sbecause he he like a lot of guys
, even though I was telling himwayne, you got to take care of
(23:20):
this, don't laugh about it, it'snot fucking funny.
Yeah, you got to take care ofthis and he didn't.
And that's what guys do, and inmy clinic they would hobble in
and so it wasn't alife-threatening thing and often
their friend or colleague wouldtell them go see this guy, go
there for years and finally theygo and after a few sessions
they're better and they getupset with their friend why
(23:41):
didn't you have me go sooner?
And the friend would say I dideverything but drag your ass
there.
So that's how guys are.
But again, when we can laugh atit about it and put guys in a
different kind of scenario, theystart revealing it and
divulging how they're all likethat.
It starts to go from being ashame thing to being a funny
thing and we start to own it.
(24:02):
To get back to your question, Ithink just getting guys aware
of their body, telling them it'sa stress response and if you
don't deal with it, this iswhat's going to happen.
But here are some tools to howto deal with it so those bad
things don't happen and actuallyyou get some positive responses
happening for your body andyour health, but really for
everyone else.
(24:22):
And then we're not stupid.
After a while we start seeingpositive responses, so we get
positive reinforcements.
And so what I've seen with guyslike I got guys that have been
in this group for 20 years.
What brought them in finished19 years ago, but they're in it
because they want thebrotherhood, because they keep
working on themselves.
They keep improving and honingit through their support of the
(24:45):
group.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, I love it.
I love that you say you know wedo want the brotherhood, we do
need that connection and thatsupport and I don't think
there's a man that I know that'salive that doesn't need that,
and oftentimes we will pretendthat we don't.
But men need the emotionalsupport, they need the
brotherhood.
You know, I watched, you knowthe right three to do where
women will do a lot of women'sretreats and women's and men we
yeah, you know, and I'm even tothe point of where, hey, I'll
(25:06):
want to go to two people, butI'm not looking for a man's
retreat and women do a good jobof connecting and socializing in
that space.
So, as we begin to come toclose to everybody on their own,
what will be some steps thatyou could take, professionally
or personally, to do better asmen, because your families need
you, your communities need you,your workforce needs you, like
there are people that haveaccounted on us to be healthy
(25:27):
and be at our best.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Well, invest in yourself.
So one of the things is to juststart to realize that the
history of your life and theaccumulation of stress into
chronic stress creates asituation where, to use my
metaphor, you're not idlinganymore.
When you take your rig and youstop at a stop sign, you push
the clutch in, the RPNs is not1,500, it's 5,000 or whatever.
(25:52):
You're burning yourself out.
And this is what my friend did,and you don't know that because
it's been always there.
It's been a gradual progressionor digression, and everyone
around you is doing it.
So just get the concept thatstress is accumulating and
there's a lot of ways to dealwith it.
The best way you know, there'sno drugs that will get rid of
stress, but through the body,everything from body work to
(26:12):
yoga, meditation, to our work.
I mean, there's a lot out thereand you'll see more and more
guys doing it and that isactually a way to cheat.
I like to cheat, you know.
I like to find easy, short waysto get results and I've seen a
lot of guys go down that pathand they just find themselves
being more relaxed.
So, just in general, it showsup across the board in their
(26:36):
medical indices, but also, butalso, you know, at home or at
work they're just more relaxed,which means they have more
resources.
Another one is find a group ofguys that you can just really be
authentic with.
And that's a little hard forguys because we get together and
we tend to BS or we, you know,we all sort of face the TV and
watch a game together and wemight do something together, but
(26:58):
we're not being real together.
Yes, women are sort of betterat that.
But I'll say this one thingwhen guys get into this, they
get into it and they stay withit much more than women do.
So we might resist it, but whenwe find the right venue or way
of doing it, we will stick withit because, you know, we're
getting reinforced, we'regetting benefits and we're
(27:19):
really enjoying it.
And so we get guys that comeinto our retreats.
I remember a while ago we hadthis guy that was ex-Special
Forces, all tatted up yes, greatguy.
And we, you know, we do alittle check-in and he was like
one of the last guys to check inand he says I don't like men
and don't touch me.
We were like all right, at theend two days later he said I
(27:43):
love you all.
I want to hug you, call me ifyou need me.
And he came back to another one.
We all are teddy bears on theinside and we want, and we truly
and there's a lot of researchthat supports this, which you
know, goes against you know, orexplains why guys are so lonely
and how we die of thatloneliness but we all want that
(28:04):
authentic connection and we'renot going to get it at work
Probably not.
We're not probably going to getit in a lot of other
organizations or situationsbecause it's not set up for.
So we need to find, you know,use a little courage to find a
place where you can get that andnot, you know, check a few
places out and be willing totake a risk.
(28:24):
You get nothing to lose otherthan a little time and money and
if you find the right place,you're going to get a huge
return on your investment.
Maybe you do it for a littlewhile and maybe you stick with
it, but it will change your life.
And again, thousands of guyshave done that and you know,
regularly they start to contactme and thank me from years prior
because it, you know, put themin a new direction and then just
(28:46):
to go back to something yousort of asked a while ago.
One of the things that Irealized in terms of
vulnerability is what I callassertive vulnerability.
Women have it, but it's moreunique for a man, and what it is
is being vulnerable, which isessentially what we think it is.
It might not be beingvulnerable like a woman crying
and all that, but being open,really being open to our own
(29:08):
experience and to someone else'sexperience, and being willing
to be affected by theirexperience, but also being
assertive be affected by theirexperience, but also being
assertive.
So, rather than collapsingwhich is what, yeah, as men, we
don't want to do and so we justwrite off vulnerability entirely
but because being vulnerable isbeing weak, and I'm saying and
you, I'm sure, saw it in themilitary with guys being
(29:30):
vulnerable, I mean, you know,going into a line of fire to
save your buddy is being veryvulnerable, yes, but that's a
huge act of courage.
And that's essentially what I'mtalking about.
Is being vulnerable, feeling afeeling, the fear or whatever
else you're feeling and takingaction at the same time the
chronic stress, or what we calla freeze response by feeling the
(29:59):
vulnerability and otherfeelings and taking action at
the same time, and you'reshowing other people.
This is like the epitome ofbeing an effective leader that,
oh, he's not a threat.
You know, ron's beingvulnerable.
Maybe he's sharing his feelings, but he's not letting his
feelings take him out and he'snot being reactionary.
He's just being himself andhe's not letting his feelings
take him out.
(30:19):
And he's not being reactionary,he's just being himself and
he's taking risks that might notprove out to be successful.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yes, yes, I mean, you're spot on.
I mean that's really you know.
What you tapped into just thenis how I show up on stages.
I'm pretty transparent and Iallow my feelings to show up and
that I'm human and what wasfrustrating or what was hurting
or what was painful and what wasfrustrating or what was hurting
or what was painful?
And people are plucking towardsyou after that like, wow,
you're really transparent.
You know, I was feeling that, Iwas thinking that I had gone
through that, but I didn't havethe courage to say it in the
(30:44):
room like you do.
Thank you for the invitationfor me to be able to speak to
whatever I may be feeling Mostmen.
If you ask them a feeling word,they'll give you an action word
, not a filler word, in theirresponse yeah, how are you
feeling?
Oh, I got to go to work.
No, no, not what you have to do.
How are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
No, don't even care.
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
That's been phenomenal.
I love the information youshare, or is there anything that
you're doing for your companyor your program that you're
running that you can highlight,and how do people locate you or
connect with you?
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, they can find us at meld.
M-e-l-d dot community spelledout.
We're doing a few things.
We have like a introductory 10week course, which is, you know,
a few hours a week.
It's virtual, it's guys love it.
It's a program I first created10 years ago and we kept on
improving it over the years.
They did some significantresearch on it about a year ago.
(31:36):
It took them a couple of yearsto do.
It got published a few monthsago in the APA Journal about how
effective this program is.
So that's a great intro for guys.
I have group coaching, I haveindividual coaching, but also
we're going back to doing livetrainings, which I love doing,
our team loves doing and guysjust love it.
It's always a little scary toshow up because in theory, you
(31:56):
don't know what you're showingup for.
But yeah, we have the ABC Newsapp, one I did a while ago.
I mean it's a powerfulexperience.
It's a lot of fun and safe forguys.
The bottom line you can learnall this stuff in your head, but
you need to put yourself intosituations where you have
experiences, because it's theexperience that's going to teach
(32:17):
you.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yes, yes, I totally agree.
Information is great, butimplementation of that
information is through some kindof experience.
So I'm glad that you're outthere, that people are getting
to.
Are you also on LinkedIn oranything else, or is it best
just to go through the mail?
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Oh yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, our company's on
LinkedIn and Instagram, and,yeah, we're on all that and we
post some of the stuff.
And we have a free newsletterthat's open for men and women
that I write every week.
It has a lot of differentcontent on it.
And then we have freemembership for men.
We have this community whereguys can just connect and right
(32:50):
now it's just free for men.
Yeah, we appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Well, it has been a pleasure.
And to all of our guests thatfollow us and that pay attention
and listen to our podcast,thank you for joining us.
I mean, you had a phenomenaltime, great information.
And for the men, this segmentand this session was really
speaking to you.
So, our women, we'll be backanother time that we'll put some
focus on you, but today wasreally focused on what is it.
And for the women, that arerenshared about the man that you
(33:18):
reveal a relationship with.
Thank you all for joining us.
Again, this is Ron HarveyUnpacked with Ron Harvey podcast
.
Thank you for joining us anduntil next time.
Y'all have a wonderful day anda wonderful week.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Well, we hope you enjoyed this edition of Unpacked
podcast with leadershipconsultant Ron Harvey.
Remember to join us everyMonday as Ron unpacks sound
advice, providing real answersfor real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember toadd value and make a difference
where you are, for the peopleyou serve, because people always
(33:49):
matter.
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