February 3, 2025 • 43 mins
Experiencing multiple losses in quick succession, Jeff opens up about the emotional complexity and heart-rending journey of losing both his stepson Alec and his father. We explore with Jeff and Amy the nuances of compounded grief, especially when it's tied to figures of guidance and friendship.
Amy and Jeff discuss the tough balance of supporting those struggling with addiction while setting personal boundaries for self-care. Jeff's experiences with the loss of Alec, their friend and employee Josh, and Alec's roommate Mike to addiction highlight the silent battles many families face. Through these stories, we emphasize the power of resilience and the importance of finding joy amidst sorrow, driven by the belief that our departed loved ones would want us to embrace life fully.
A recurring theme throughout our conversation is the idea of "grace and space"—the practice of allowing open grief expression and the challenge of accepting that not all problems have solutions. The heartfelt remembrance of Jeff's friend, Brett Oglesby, offers a lesson in understanding and supporting those facing similar challenges, enhancing our gratitude for the connections and insights gained through these deeply personal discussions, while trying to navigate compounded grief.
Thank you, Amy and Jeff, for sharing your vulnerable and honest experiences.
As Jeff mentioned, finding patience is key to truly listening. He mentions a hilarious video that really helped him understand the importance of just listening and not sweating small details. Here is the YouTube video Jeff mentions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOgwi
"Dream Bird" by Jonny Easton
Thank you for listening to Warrior Moms podcast. It is an honor to share about our beloved children gone too soon, and we hope by telling of our loss, it may help someone in their grief journey. Please note that we are not medical professionals and encourage those listening to seek help from mental health professionals.
We'd love to hear from our followers!
Website: https://www.warriormoms.me/
Facebook: Warrior Moms-The Club No One Wants to Be In
Instagram: WarriorMoms.SurvivingChildLoss
With love,
Warrior Moms Amy & Michele
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, hello and welcome back to.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Warrior Moms.
Yes, welcome back, I am.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Amy, and I am Michelle, and we are glad you're
here with us today.
Amy, as she said, has wrangledher husband to join us today,
which we're so appreciative.
Jeff, thank you for joining usin the studio.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Thank you.
Well, today, Amy and I, we'vehad several conversations over
the last month, just after thenew year, about just grief in
the new year and being in aplace.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
that's hard and how I have been just in a bad place.
I have been angry and bitterand just unjoyful, yeah, even
though you might agree the day,and you try your best, just
inside, you're just not happy.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, not feeling good, and so I just wanted to
get on and Amy and Jeffcertainly have.
You know, they have a you knowa sad story, of course, of
losing Alec, and for them theyreally have endured what you
know many psychologists wouldsay compounded grief.
(01:21):
And so we just wanted to talkabout that.
Like, how do you live throughthat and this?
You know, just constant, andone on top of another addition
of losses, and you know how thatfeels and what do you do.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So, let's so I'll start.
So we in so May of 2019, welost Alec.
Then in February of 2021, soalmost two years later, we lost
Jeff's dad and in all actuality,today I think this is kind of
(01:59):
what prompted the podcast fortoday and us talking was today
is his dad's angel day.
He's been gone four years, sothat I know that we talk a lot
about kids, but there's, youknow, there's so much loss,
especially with your father thatyou know because I still have
both of my parents, and so thiswas our.
(02:20):
This is our first battle withthe battle.
I don't know the right word,but this is our first battle
with the battle.
I don't know the right word,but this is our first encounter
with losing a parent, and I knowthat a lot of people around us
do that.
So so that compounded grief, itstill comes.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
You know, losing your dad Jeff, just a year after
losing Alec, I mean that had tobe.
Just talk about that.
What was that like for y'all?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So you know, losing Alec was awful.
I just remember the day and Ifound out before Amy did and
having to go tell her yes,obviously it was the hardest
(03:14):
thing that I've ever had to do.
And then going through all that.
You know, alec was my stepsonbut I loved him like a child and
tried to raise him as my own.
And then, yes, two years laterI lost my father, one of the
(03:41):
COVID deaths.
I don't know if COVID killedhim or the vaccine killed him.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
We always say complications of COVID is what?
Yeah, all the things right.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
But yeah, addiction.
My dad did not have addictions,His dad did and my grandfather
was.
I never really knew him, but hewas a alcoholic, but anyways.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Okay, yeah, but your grandfather dealt with addiction
, but what about losing your dad?
This is the way we have to dosometimes, michelle is.
I'm really bad about going offtopic and I'm going to try to
keep him on topic, even thoughneither one of us know how to do
it, but anyway.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Losing my dad.
He was just him and my mom weregreat parents, raised us as
Christians and faith has gottenus through a lot.
My dad was just giving patientand with kids, with parents, you
(04:55):
pick up the phone to say, hey,I want to call my dad and ask
him this question on finances,or what should I invest in, or
how should I handle thissituation with my kid?
And it's tough because he's notthere.
Same thing with Alec.
So, yes, dealing with both hasbeen difficult.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
And especially so soon after.
I mean, those first two yearsof losing a child is a blur, and
then it becomes a horrificreality.
And I mean, within those firstyears heading into year three,
you're still underwater and thenyou have the loss of somebody
(05:44):
you're so close to.
You know that's so hard.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, and you know, I don't want to say it is
different, but it is differentbut Jeff had had a conversation
with his dad a few years beforethat and, knowing that he was a
Christian and knowing that hehad, yeah, he had told me he was
having like a back surgery andI was worried about it and this
was a blessing.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
But he said you don't need to worry about me.
I've been married for almost 50years.
I've seen my kids, my grandkids, grow as Christians.
I've accomplished everything Iwanted on this earth I still
want to be here, but if I go toheaven, that's where I
ultimately want to be.
Earth, I still want to be here,but if I go to heaven, that's
where I ultimately want to be.
And that was.
You know we still miss him, butit's such a peace knowing that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And he had that faith and that is where he wants to
be.
And that is something differentwith losing a child is they
haven't accomplished everythingthat we think that they wanted
to accomplish.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You, know, there is that big difference in those.
Yeah, and we didn't get to havethat conversation that you got
to have with your dad.
So then in those moments ofsadness, you can replay your
dad's words and have a littlepeace anyway.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yes, it made it, even though his death was unexpected
.
Those words made it somewhateasier, and you know, as a
husband, we want to fix thingstoo.
I wanted my wife, I didn't wanther to be sad, but I couldn't
(07:26):
fix that.
And so when you have anotherloss, it's like this reminds her
of me, of Alex passing and justtrying to be strong as a
husband.
and just trying to be strong asa husband, and you know, we
(07:47):
don't always get to share ourgrief because we're men and we
hold it in.
I guess a little more.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
What did you do that in those you know you had lost
your dad and you're trying to bestrong.
Where do you go, or what do youdo to gain that strength to
help Amy with her grief?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
One of the things that somebody told us in a grief
counseling that has alwaysstuck with me is two words it's
grace and space, space and grace.
Give her grace if she wants tolay in the bed all day, or do
that for a week.
Give her the space to do it anddon't get mad, don't be like.
(08:38):
Get up, face the world, becausewe do want them to get back and
live life.
Mm-hmm.
But it's not going to happenovernight, it's not going to.
You know, it's been five yearsand she still has days that she
lays in the bed or doesn't wantto do anything.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
But so it's just patience and just like grace and
space um and like we've saidtime and time again, and I think
what he just said too, is youcan't rush the grief process.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You can't rush it no, and you can't fix it that's the
hardest word for a man rightthere.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I can't fix it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That is so unbelievably hard.
And then, after losing your dad, then y'all lost Josh, who
worked for you.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, so Josh went to no Longer Bound also.
He was just so full, such a bigspirit energetic.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
He was a punk, just like Alec, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Did?
Alec and Josh know each other.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
A little bit.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Josh knew of Alec Mm-hmm and I don't know that
Alec ever met him, but he camein at the tail end of when Alec
was.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
They would have been probably really good friends, or
they would have fought eachother one or the other, because
they were probably probably offand on, maybe yeah so there's
definitely similarities thereyeah, but we, we used to a
better job of it.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
But work with guys, uh, coming out of no Longer
Bound, tried to help them getjobs, raise money through the
pizza party to help with variousthings.
But yeah, josh worked with me,he was doing fantastic, he was a
great worker.
And then, you know, like somany times, just went through a
(10:45):
little struggle and most ofthese guys, I think, struggle
with relationships with girlsand they just want the perfect
life and life's not perfect.
But yes, josh was working andhe took his own life.
Yes, josh was working and hetook his own life.
(11:06):
And that kind of really made Amyand I take a step back.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Because, like you said, the compounding grief,
it's like I don't want to beclose to anybody that might die.
Yes, absolutely.
Which is weird to say, but butthat's an honest feeling,
(11:33):
absolutely yeah, Josh was thatone.
You know, they all hurt, thatone hurt.
A lot yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
And going to his funeral.
I just I can't imagine that hadto be so difficult.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No, the first.
His mom called me at.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Middle of the night.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, she was living in California, so I think she
found out at whatever time 11o'clock or something but called
a couple times in the middle ofthe night.
And that's one thing I havelearned is I keep my phone on
silent and I keep it away,because I at least want one more
(12:20):
good night of sleep.
If I get bad news, I want it tobe at least find out on a good
night of sleep.
If I get bad news, I want it tobe at least find out on a good
night's sleep.
That sounds a little crazy thatI even think that way, but
that's what it's turned into.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So, yes, knowing her pain too, of losing the child
and having to talk to her firstand find it out was impossible,
it's just gut-wrenching, becauseyou wouldn't wish it on anyone
(12:55):
to have to live through the lossof a child and you know exactly
how she feels.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So it's horrible and it's like Jeff said we have to
take a step back.
It set us back emotionally.
You know it's kind of like youtake a step forward and two
steps back and it just, and itdoesn't.
I mean, granted, he wasn't ourchild, but it was close.
It was, he was close.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah, he was close.
Yeah, you see, somebody thatwent from the bottom, had no
good transportation, didn't haveany money to making money.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Living on his own.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Living on his own, getting a vehicle and all these
positive things and you just getso excited about all that.
And then it's.
I've told a lot of guys youknow one decision can end
everything, all the good you'vedone one bad decision.
One bad day can end it all um,and that's that's scary but it's
(14:05):
so real because, especially asa 20 year old, 22, you feel like
superman, can't be, can't hurtme, I'm not gonna die no um, so
that that hit hard, because Icould just see he had a bright
future.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Now you mentioned the pizza party and you know no
longer bound.
When was Alex's his pizza party, where you do the fundraising?
Had you all already startedthat before Josh had died, or
where does that fit into?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
the timeline.
Yes, Pizza Party we started theyear after.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
It was the year after .
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So, 2019.
The year after you lost Alec.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
It must have been, I don't know.
Yes, it had been.
This is our fifth year.
We're going into our fifth year.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
And Josh and a lot of the guys would come help set up
for that and do things.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Hard work.
Did you do the pizza party thenthat year, after losing?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Josh Yep.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
We've not missed a year.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yes, we did, we just stepped away, uh, we jeff used
to go to tea and cake every weekand get like in the trenches
with the guys and get to reallyknow them and we would have them
over for dinner and we would.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
You know, we just ride, go-kart tracks, paintball,
paintball wars and like trulyget involved, yeah, and their
everyday life pretty much.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So that's where it, that's where it stung.
And then, you know, there wereso many guys in that group that
we've become a part of theirlives and a part of their story,
and they've become a part oftheir lives and a part of their
story and they've become a partof our story.
Yes, and it just, you know, andthat's where when you start
losing those guys, or they startmaking stupid decisions and you
(16:15):
can see where the path is going, but they can't.
It's just hard to watch and wejust couldn't.
We had to put up our boundaries.
And that's something that, Ithink, is grieving people and
grieving parents and stuff likethat In general.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
you need to put up boundaries for yourself in order
to be able to and it makes methink of that phrase grace and
space, like you guys did thatfor yourselves, that you needed
that grace to say I can't beinvolved with the guys right now
and space away from it.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And we're still very supportive of the whole
addiction recovery community andstuff like that.
We still do the pizza parties.
We still love for all the guysto come, we love it and we love
spreading awareness aboutaddiction and recovery and that
it is possible.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
But on a bigger level on a broader level.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
if that makes sense, it does make sense.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, and then Alec had a roommate, mike Cannon, and
same thing he's doing great.
It seemed like he would changejobs a lot but he was always
trying to better himself andmove up and again was doing
(17:33):
great and then had some just badthings.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
He was poisoned by fentanyl.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Oh gosh, and losing him was hard.
I wasn't as close to Mike, butit was super hard too, because
kind of you know, when you losesomebody close, it's always
people that think like you don'twant to talk about it, but you
do want to talk about it.
And Mike was one of those thatwe could talk to and laugh about
(18:03):
the stories, because Alec andhim were roommates, so it was
like we lost that too.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
We lost a part of Alec again.
We lost another piece of Alec.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yes, because every time we would talk to him.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
like Jeff said, it was a new story about Alec that
we hadn't heard.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yes, we could laugh about stupid things that they
did, and so we were close withMike, but it certainly wasn't
like my dad or Alec, but it waslike losing another part of Alec
(18:40):
and losing Mike.
Because, now I know what lovedones close to him are having to
deal with, and we lost thatpiece selfishly.
He's a great person, but wealso got to live Alec's life
through him again.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Absolutely.
So what do y'all do?
How do you refuel in the midstof all this sadness?
I look at the two of you and Ithink about your vivacious
daughter and your great businessthat you all run and your
beautiful home and land and allthe things, and I I think from
(19:23):
the outside people wouldn't knowum this deep sadness that y'all
carry.
So what do you do?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
For me it's, um you know, faith is a lot Having a
belief in another life of heavenafter this.
Mm-hmm.
Like with Alec, he had demons,Even though he had a lot of good
(19:53):
times in life.
He also struggled withdepression.
He struggled with the addiction.
And I'm not saying that I, youknow, I'd rather Alec be here.
But I guess I tell myself and Ibelieve it's true, but maybe I
tell myself so many times that Ijust hope it's true or make
(20:18):
myself believe it.
But, like my dad told me, he'sgoing to a place where he wants
to be.
I'm like you know, Alec nowdoesn't have those struggles.
Alec is in a place where wemiss him.
But the other thing I think isthe biggest thing for me with my
(20:43):
dad and with Alec and with Joshand I'll get to another one,
unfortunately is, I know none ofthem would want me to sit here
and not try to enjoy life andnot try to enjoy life.
(21:04):
I know if Alec could come backand talk to me, or Amy
especially, the first thing hewould say is not that I miss you
, not that I love you, that, Mom, I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I want you to be happy.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And that voice does that drive you, then it does
when I get down, Because I'lltalk to Alec, I'll talk to Josh,
I'll talk to my dad.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Which may sound crazy , but we're all a little crazy,
right.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
We're all crazy in the door but he is as crazy does
.
But you know, they're all soclose that I can talk to them
and almost know what they wouldsay back and even sometimes it
might be a cuss word or twocoming from my like and I
picture riding in the car withhim, you know, or in, or with
(22:09):
josh working here at the houseand goofing off with him, and I
just like I see that joy and andwhat they would say to me, and
that brings me a lot of peace.
You know, I don't show the painand I don't like you said, a
lot of people don't see thegrief.
Mm-hmm.
(22:31):
But it's there.
But it is, I guess, manageablethat I know.
What they want from me is youknow, and what you want for your
kids is happiness.
Yeah, for me is you know, andwhat you want for your kids is
is happiness.
Yeah, if something happened tome, I don't want amy and layla
down here just sitting on thecouch crying every day yes yeah,
(22:52):
well, and that's weird.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
But sometimes I want to see jeff's grief, you know,
like, because he does go andit's I know he has it and I know
that he'll grieve or cry orwhatever he does away from me
and I try to do it away from him, but sometimes I just can't
hide it full, you know, fullterm, and sometimes I think that
(23:16):
I need to see Jeff's grief forAlec to know that he really does
Like, do you really miss him?
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
you know like yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I think you're done Like what you know, but I know I
know that isn't true, Right.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, does it.
Just even today, amy, does this.
Um.
What does this do for yourheart?
Hearing Jeff talk through?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
some of this it's well, you know, and that is
something it warms my heart itdoes, and I think that it is
Jeff and I communicate a lot,and if I'm and that's something
that I think that we've we'vealways communicated well, but in
this we have to like we have tocommunicate because he doesn't
(24:01):
have any clean underwear rightnow, and you know and he knows.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Stuff that comes out of her mouth.
But I think the biggest thingthat goes along with the grace
is being able to tell yourspouse like hey, today is a
shitty day.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So I need grace, yeah , where I might not fuss about
dishes in the sink that day,like, okay, this really isn't a
big deal, because you do learnwith death that a lot of things
aren't a big deal.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, things that you thought were important gosh
really go by the wayside.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah.
If I get like I cleaned mytruck today and found my first
two big scratches on it and fora second I was kind of upset and
I'm like it's really not a bigdeal.
Fortunately, when you gothrough so much loss and pain,
you learn like do I really needto have this argument with my
(25:11):
wife?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I didn't scratch your truck.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Or my child.
It's possible.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
It's possible.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
But I really need to get upset about this because
it's really not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I love that.
Grace and space.
That is so powerful.
I haven't heard those two terms, and what an easy two words to
remember.
And it's so powerful.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Well, the other thing , too, that I have learned is,
as a man, like I said, we wantto fix things.
If our daughter or son or wifecomes home and has a bad day, we
want to tell them how to fix it.
Yeah.
And I'm still not great at it,but I've gotten a lot better
that.
(25:59):
Really they just want to,especially with women.
They just want to tell you whatwent on and what's going on,
and really I just need to listenand say, oh, I bet that makes
you feel better I know you'reupset Instead of saying, well,
if you get up and go for a walk,it would make you feel better.
(26:21):
Yeah.
Which is what I really believesometimes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And he still says that.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
But there's days, you know, like, I think my daughter
quit talking to me a little bitbecause I try to fix everything
.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And I had to learn.
Like I can't tell her how tomake friends or deal with
friends at school, I just needto listen, so those grace and
space and just listening insteadof trying to fix.
And if you've never seen thenail in the head.
(26:56):
Look it up and it'll explain alot.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I will do that it's funny.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
This lady literally has a nail in her head.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
All men need to watch nail in the head and learn to
ignore the nail.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I have seen it.
I know exactly what you'retalking about.
We need to put a link in ourdescription.
We have to oh my gosh, we willfor sure, yeah, where she's got
this giant nail in herdescription.
We have to.
Oh my gosh, we will for sure,yeah, where she's got this giant
nail in her head, my sweaterskeep snagging and he's like well
.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
She's just like quit trying to fix it.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's unbelievable.
Well, thank goodness you don'thave a nail in your head, amy,
but it feels like it on many,many days.
For sure, tell us about um justthis last, um major grief that
y'all have endured, just a hugeloss again yeah, so uh, brett,
(28:03):
his name was Brett Oglesby.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
We became friends in, I think, not positive but
around second grade.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Could have been a little earlier.
Some say first, some say second, but it's one of those friends
that you don't remember when youmet, because they've just
always been there.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Forever, friend yeah.
And we've been through so muchgreat things, so much bad things
together, and Brett struggledwith addiction.
He probably was sober for about10 years and helped so many
(28:46):
other people.
He helped us with Alec.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
So much Educated us on what addiction really was.
Wow.
What Alec was really feeling,as opposed to us just writing it
off.
You know, yeah, educated, notjust helped.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, going back to fixing it.
We're just like you.
Just got to stop, because thisis what happens and it's you
know not understanding theaddiction.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, it's a whole other just type of grief, right.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Not only was he a great friend, he helped a lot of
people in that.
And then, long story short, hegot CP3.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
CP3 is what it was finally.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Diagnosed?
I think yeah, and it wasdebilitating to him and he had
lost kind of the fun of livingand just was he tried everything
.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
He was diagnosed probably five or six years ago
with that.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Is that like a breathing lung?
Speaker 3 (29:53):
It's kind of like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Vestibular probably like.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Vertigo Meniere, something kind of like that.
But yeah but, you're alwayskind of felt a little dizzy or
off.
And even you know, three orfour years ago he told me like
if I can't figure out how to getthis fixed, I don't want to
live anymore.
The only reason I'm still evenhere is because of my faith in
(30:23):
my daughter and the people Ilove because of my faith in my
daughter and the people I love.
So eventually it won the battle.
But I know his faith was sostrong and he probably would
have taken his own life earlierif it wasn't for his faith in
his family but his quality oflife.
So, like I was saying with himhow I deal with it I was angry,
(30:51):
I was happy because he was sucha good friend and you don't like
to see people suffer and youknow, certainly sad and
depressed.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
But I still have.
We had kind of the family hereand had a ceremony, celebration
of life, and I've kept thosepictures out in our little
workshop garage and I don't knowwhen I'll take them down.
But you know, I talk to himwhen I'm out there and that's
the same thing.
Like I say, brett, I need tocall you today, and it's like,
(31:33):
and then I get mad and I getupset and then I'm like I just
hear him saying Jeff, my lifewas so miserable and I am so
happy now.
Yeah, because I do believe youknow that's where he is in
(31:55):
heaven.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
And he passed about two months ago just for the
listeners' time frame.
Yeah, I mean, it's still raw.
This is what.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
It was the day before Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
I mean, you're still processing it, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yes, and I guess the hardest hurt I have with that is
with his wife and his daughter,with his wife and his daughter,
because again I feel like forhim, I need to fix those or try
(32:35):
to be there and stress do I doenough or do I not do anything?
So I think that's the biggesthardest thing for a man in this,
because we try to be strong andwe try not to share our
feelings and we want to fixthings and we don't especially
like I don't want Amy to see meupset, because I already know
(32:56):
she's upset or maybe she'shaving a good day and now I'm
going to bring her down.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, one of the things just as I'm listening, I
mean a message.
That is my takeaway is justyour ability to you know you put
the pictures on the wall, youtalk to your dad, you talk to
Alec, you talk to Brett thatyou're facing your grief, you're
(33:23):
surrounding your own self justwith those guys that you love
and you're willing to sit withyour grief at least a part of
the day.
And I know that's so painfuland yet I'm sure that's really
helpful.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, like I said, the only thing I can always go
back to is I know they want me.
Every one of them want me to beas happy as I can be.
They all want me to enjoy lifeas much as I can.
And that's difficult, a lot ofdays.
Yeah.
But if I want to honor them andnot let them have regrets or
(34:09):
anything, then that's what I gotto do.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, I think.
Sometimes I feel like if I'mhaving too good of a time, then
she feels guilty.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
There's guilt.
Amy does feel guilt.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I think you know family vacations and she feels
guilty that she I don't wantthem to think that we're just,
we're happy they're gone, youknow, because I do believe that
they can see us and all thatkind of stuff, and I'm like, oh
well, look, they are finewithout me.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
You know, like their life is better without me and
it's not better, right, yeah,and so that's where I have
issues, right, and trying to tapinto that voice that you had
said, jeff, where you canimagine Alec coming and saying
Mom, I just want you to be happy.
Heck, yeah, yeah, saying mom, Ijust want you to be happy, yeah
(35:10):
, yeah.
So, amy, you and I have talkedin the last you know month that
you're just so sad and so angry.
And, um, and I know, jeff, yousaid you can see that in Amy,
that you know, you know, amy.
You said you, you don't haveany.
That you know, you know, amy.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
You said you don't have any you don't have any
clean underwear, you know and it.
But I mean I sent you a pictureof my closet.
One day you can walk in there,and that's not me.
Granted, I am a hoarder and aclutter freak, but I am good at
laundry.
Like and I told Jeff early inour marriage and I've said this
on here before too my laundryroom and my clothes and stuff
like that.
(35:46):
It shows, it mirrors, what mylife really is and it's.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah, when you know that when that's a mess, you
know you're having a hard time.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Yes, but Amy is also.
She's good about not, you knownot, she needs her days, but she
doesn't.
She's good about not livingthat for try not to for too long
.
And if I need her to go besocial for a night or do
(36:18):
something, even if it's the lastthing she wants to do, she does
do that and I think that's justas important as the grace and
space to for each other to dothings that you don't want to do
because of your grief, becauseit's hard to go to the family my
side of the family vacation butI'm not going to miss it yeah
(36:42):
so, but she's going to, she'sgonna be there, um, and and I
appreciate that because it's sheyou both have to make
sacrifices and I think, I thinkit's important to, like I said,
we do communicate in it and Ithink that is the biggest,
biggest thing that has saved ourfaith is us.
(37:06):
And not sweating the small stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
For him not to sweat the small stuff, and for me to
yeah, to lean in and say yeswhen you can.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Not all the time like you do.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
Well, I'd say no plenty but I do have a yes
problem maybe Leaning in andstuff like that.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So well, it's kind of cool to get.
Is there anything else you wantto know from a man while we got
him pinned down right here?
I?
Speaker 1 (37:38):
know.
Well, if you had to say I mean,you've given such great advice,
the grace and space, but what'skind of your advice?
For how do you take care of you?
What is it that gives youbreath?
You said your faith, for sure.
(37:59):
You said hearing the voices ofthose you love, wanting you be
happy, but what is it that youcould say, like physically what?
What do you do?
What do you like?
Where do you go to sort of getthat um drive, I guess?
Speaker 3 (38:14):
I think there's a huge balance of like.
I don't want to say for all men, but I like to be selfish at
times and just whether it's goplay golf or go to my hunting
club, or I find my most peaceoutdoors.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
And he always he's a goer, he's a goer and a doer, so
he's always busy.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
And so Amy, is, you know, finding that balance where
Amy allows me to do a lot ofthat stuff?
finding that balance where Amyallows me to do a lot of that
stuff, but also still beingpresent with the family is.
But I think a key is I have toput on a face and Amy has to put
on a face at times at home forour daughter, for each other to
(39:10):
keep happiness, but alsoallowing that other one to have
that space and go out and notfeel like if she's having a bad
day, I need to stay right nextto her in the bed.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
He's allowed to have a good day and I have a bad day
For me a good day and him a badday.
We allow that, and that is, Ithink, something hard to
probably learn at the beginningis it has no reflection on him
how my day is.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
In your just day-to-day life you've had these
five compounded years of justgrief and grief.
How do you connect with oneanother in just this love
relationship?
How do you make sure that youhave time like date nights, or
you have this time for eachother?
(39:59):
Where do you carve that?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
in when you are caring so much.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Great question, Michelle in when you're caring
so much great question michelleno I think we, you know it like
a great night for us togetherbecause we're boring, it's
sitting and boring, the betterit's it's sitting and just kind
of being in the same roomwatching tv well, or sitting
outside when it's nice outside,we love we're the old people in
(40:27):
the rocking chairs on the patioand just watching the birds fly
in the grass grow and justtalking about yeah, dreaming
about whatever you know buildinga house, or just we're dreamers
and we just enjoy to.
We need imagination.
There's no magic wand andeverybody grieves different.
(40:53):
Because my grief may be ridingaround in my truck listening to
music that really brings mepeace and he does that a lot.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
He's got a song for everybody or more.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
They all have their own song.
Oh, I love that.
So when he's missing them,he'll play those songs.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
So that's great for me.
But, like I said, amy grievesdifferently.
You know hers is laying around,mine's driving around or going
down.
But you have to.
You know, for me I have to staybusy.
I've always said the idle timeis the devil time.
Then I sit around, then it'sjust going to get all in my head
(41:37):
and keep going and keep goingand getting worse and worse.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
And just knowing that there is a higher power and
that, for me, is God.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
And we will see him again one day.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Yes.
And when we get there, I don'twant them to say why did you
live your life in so muchsadness?
Mm-hmm.
And I want them to be able tosay like you celebrated me, you
remembered me.
(42:11):
I know that when you werefishing, you were talking to me.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
And you, you know, I'm glad that you enjoyed life,
because that's what I want.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
That's beautiful, jeff.
I love that.
Well, I don't know about you,amy, but, gosh, I got so much
from just hearing the two of youtalk.
I'm so sorry about all of thelosses.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I just appreciate you sharing that it sucks on so
many levels, as we all know Toomany levels, I am certain of
that, yeah, but we appreciateyou.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
You know being vulnerable and sharing what
you've learned and the hard days, the good days and that space
and grace.
That's just amazing advice.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
You got to tell Jeremy that one.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
I am Make a t-, jeremy, that one, I am Make a
t-shirt, yes, I love it.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Well, thank y'all.
Thank you, Michelle, for takingtime and doing this.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yes, appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yes, well, until next time, we'll post, for sure, the
nail head link.
We got to find it and post it.
We'll find it and put it onthere.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Some very, very important.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
It was a pivotal moment in his life where it just
like clicked, he got it.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Don't fix it, just listen.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Just listen Even if she's got a nail sticking all
the way through her head.
That's so good Well thank youall.
Thank you, good night and we'lltalk soon.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Bye-bye.
Well, hello and welcome back to.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Warrior Moms.
Yes, welcome back, I am.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Amy, and I am Michelle, and we are glad you're
here with us today.
Amy, as she said, has wrangledher husband to join us today,
which we're so appreciative.
Jeff, thank you for joining usin the studio.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Thank you.
Well, today, Amy and I, we'vehad several conversations over
the last month, just after thenew year, about just grief in
the new year and being in aplace.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
that's hard and how I have been just in a bad place.
I have been angry and bitterand just unjoyful, yeah, even
though you might agree the day,and you try your best, just
inside, you're just not happy.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, not feeling good, and so I just wanted to
get on and Amy and Jeffcertainly have.
You know, they have a you knowa sad story, of course, of
losing Alec, and for them theyreally have endured what you
know many psychologists wouldsay compounded grief.
(01:21):
And so we just wanted to talkabout that.
Like, how do you live throughthat and this?
You know, just constant, andone on top of another addition
of losses, and you know how thatfeels and what do you do.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So, let's so I'll start.
So we in so May of 2019, welost Alec.
Then in February of 2021, soalmost two years later, we lost
Jeff's dad and in all actuality,today I think this is kind of
(01:59):
what prompted the podcast fortoday and us talking was today
is his dad's angel day.
He's been gone four years, sothat I know that we talk a lot
about kids, but there's, youknow, there's so much loss,
especially with your father thatyou know because I still have
both of my parents, and so thiswas our.
(02:20):
This is our first battle withthe battle.
I don't know the right word,but this is our first battle
with the battle.
I don't know the right word,but this is our first encounter
with losing a parent, and I knowthat a lot of people around us
do that.
So so that compounded grief, itstill comes.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
You know, losing your dad Jeff, just a year after
losing Alec, I mean that had tobe.
Just talk about that.
What was that like for y'all?
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So you know, losing Alec was awful.
I just remember the day and Ifound out before Amy did and
having to go tell her yes,obviously it was the hardest
(03:14):
thing that I've ever had to do.
And then going through all that.
You know, alec was my stepsonbut I loved him like a child and
tried to raise him as my own.
And then, yes, two years laterI lost my father, one of the
(03:41):
COVID deaths.
I don't know if COVID killedhim or the vaccine killed him.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
We always say complications of COVID is what?
Yeah, all the things right.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
But yeah, addiction.
My dad did not have addictions,His dad did and my grandfather
was.
I never really knew him, but hewas a alcoholic, but anyways.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Okay, yeah, but your grandfather dealt with addiction
, but what about losing your dad?
This is the way we have to dosometimes, michelle is.
I'm really bad about going offtopic and I'm going to try to
keep him on topic, even thoughneither one of us know how to do
it, but anyway.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Losing my dad.
He was just him and my mom weregreat parents, raised us as
Christians and faith has gottenus through a lot.
My dad was just giving patientand with kids, with parents, you
(04:55):
pick up the phone to say, hey,I want to call my dad and ask
him this question on finances,or what should I invest in, or
how should I handle thissituation with my kid?
And it's tough because he's notthere.
Same thing with Alec.
So, yes, dealing with both hasbeen difficult.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
And especially so soon after.
I mean, those first two yearsof losing a child is a blur, and
then it becomes a horrificreality.
And I mean, within those firstyears heading into year three,
you're still underwater and thenyou have the loss of somebody
(05:44):
you're so close to.
You know that's so hard.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, and you know, I don't want to say it is
different, but it is differentbut Jeff had had a conversation
with his dad a few years beforethat and, knowing that he was a
Christian and knowing that hehad, yeah, he had told me he was
having like a back surgery andI was worried about it and this
was a blessing.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
But he said you don't need to worry about me.
I've been married for almost 50years.
I've seen my kids, my grandkids, grow as Christians.
I've accomplished everything Iwanted on this earth I still
want to be here, but if I go toheaven, that's where I
ultimately want to be.
Earth, I still want to be here,but if I go to heaven, that's
where I ultimately want to be.
And that was.
You know we still miss him, butit's such a peace knowing that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And he had that faith and that is where he wants to
be.
And that is something differentwith losing a child is they
haven't accomplished everythingthat we think that they wanted
to accomplish.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You, know, there is that big difference in those.
Yeah, and we didn't get to havethat conversation that you got
to have with your dad.
So then in those moments ofsadness, you can replay your
dad's words and have a littlepeace anyway.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yes, it made it, even though his death was unexpected
.
Those words made it somewhateasier, and you know, as a
husband, we want to fix thingstoo.
I wanted my wife, I didn't wanther to be sad, but I couldn't
(07:26):
fix that.
And so when you have anotherloss, it's like this reminds her
of me, of Alex passing and justtrying to be strong as a
husband.
and just trying to be strong asa husband, and you know, we
(07:47):
don't always get to share ourgrief because we're men and we
hold it in.
I guess a little more.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
What did you do that in those you know you had lost
your dad and you're trying to bestrong.
Where do you go, or what do youdo to gain that strength to
help Amy with her grief?
Speaker 3 (08:13):
One of the things that somebody told us in a grief
counseling that has alwaysstuck with me is two words it's
grace and space, space and grace.
Give her grace if she wants tolay in the bed all day, or do
that for a week.
Give her the space to do it anddon't get mad, don't be like.
(08:38):
Get up, face the world, becausewe do want them to get back and
live life.
Mm-hmm.
But it's not going to happenovernight, it's not going to.
You know, it's been five yearsand she still has days that she
lays in the bed or doesn't wantto do anything.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
But so it's just patience and just like grace and
space um and like we've saidtime and time again, and I think
what he just said too, is youcan't rush the grief process.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You can't rush it no, and you can't fix it that's the
hardest word for a man rightthere.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I can't fix it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That is so unbelievably hard.
And then, after losing your dad, then y'all lost Josh, who
worked for you.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, so Josh went to no Longer Bound also.
He was just so full, such a bigspirit energetic.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
He was a punk, just like Alec, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Did?
Alec and Josh know each other.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
A little bit.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Josh knew of Alec Mm-hmm and I don't know that
Alec ever met him, but he camein at the tail end of when Alec
was.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
They would have been probably really good friends, or
they would have fought eachother one or the other, because
they were probably probably offand on, maybe yeah so there's
definitely similarities thereyeah, but we, we used to a
better job of it.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
But work with guys, uh, coming out of no Longer
Bound, tried to help them getjobs, raise money through the
pizza party to help with variousthings.
But yeah, josh worked with me,he was doing fantastic, he was a
great worker.
And then, you know, like somany times, just went through a
(10:45):
little struggle and most ofthese guys, I think, struggle
with relationships with girlsand they just want the perfect
life and life's not perfect.
But yes, josh was working andhe took his own life.
Yes, josh was working and hetook his own life.
(11:06):
And that kind of really made Amyand I take a step back.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Because, like you said, the compounding grief,
it's like I don't want to beclose to anybody that might die.
Yes, absolutely.
Which is weird to say, but butthat's an honest feeling,
(11:33):
absolutely yeah, Josh was thatone.
You know, they all hurt, thatone hurt.
A lot yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
And going to his funeral.
I just I can't imagine that hadto be so difficult.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No, the first.
His mom called me at.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Middle of the night.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Yeah, she was living in California, so I think she
found out at whatever time 11o'clock or something but called
a couple times in the middle ofthe night.
And that's one thing I havelearned is I keep my phone on
silent and I keep it away,because I at least want one more
(12:20):
good night of sleep.
If I get bad news, I want it tobe at least find out on a good
night of sleep.
If I get bad news, I want it tobe at least find out on a good
night's sleep.
That sounds a little crazy thatI even think that way, but
that's what it's turned into.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
So, yes, knowing her pain too, of losing the child
and having to talk to her firstand find it out was impossible,
it's just gut-wrenching, becauseyou wouldn't wish it on anyone
(12:55):
to have to live through the lossof a child and you know exactly
how she feels.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So it's horrible and it's like Jeff said we have to
take a step back.
It set us back emotionally.
You know it's kind of like youtake a step forward and two
steps back and it just, and itdoesn't.
I mean, granted, he wasn't ourchild, but it was close.
It was, he was close.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah, he was close.
Yeah, you see, somebody thatwent from the bottom, had no
good transportation, didn't haveany money to making money.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Living on his own.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Living on his own, getting a vehicle and all these
positive things and you just getso excited about all that.
And then it's.
I've told a lot of guys youknow one decision can end
everything, all the good you'vedone one bad decision.
One bad day can end it all um,and that's that's scary but it's
(14:05):
so real because, especially asa 20 year old, 22, you feel like
superman, can't be, can't hurtme, I'm not gonna die no um, so
that that hit hard, because Icould just see he had a bright
future.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Now you mentioned the pizza party and you know no
longer bound.
When was Alex's his pizza party, where you do the fundraising?
Had you all already startedthat before Josh had died, or
where does that fit into?
Speaker 3 (14:45):
the timeline.
Yes, Pizza Party we started theyear after.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
It was the year after .
Speaker 3 (15:00):
So, 2019.
The year after you lost Alec.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
It must have been, I don't know.
Yes, it had been.
This is our fifth year.
We're going into our fifth year.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
And Josh and a lot of the guys would come help set up
for that and do things.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Hard work.
Did you do the pizza party thenthat year, after losing?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Josh Yep.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
We've not missed a year.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yes, we did, we just stepped away, uh, we jeff used
to go to tea and cake every weekand get like in the trenches
with the guys and get to reallyknow them and we would have them
over for dinner and we would.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
You know, we just ride, go-kart tracks, paintball,
paintball wars and like trulyget involved, yeah, and their
everyday life pretty much.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So that's where it, that's where it stung.
And then, you know, there wereso many guys in that group that
we've become a part of theirlives and a part of their story,
and they've become a part oftheir lives and a part of their
story and they've become a partof our story.
Yes, and it just, you know, andthat's where when you start
losing those guys, or they startmaking stupid decisions and you
(16:15):
can see where the path is going, but they can't.
It's just hard to watch and wejust couldn't.
We had to put up our boundaries.
And that's something that, Ithink, is grieving people and
grieving parents and stuff likethat In general.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
you need to put up boundaries for yourself in order
to be able to and it makes methink of that phrase grace and
space, like you guys did thatfor yourselves, that you needed
that grace to say I can't beinvolved with the guys right now
and space away from it.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And we're still very supportive of the whole
addiction recovery community andstuff like that.
We still do the pizza parties.
We still love for all the guysto come, we love it and we love
spreading awareness aboutaddiction and recovery and that
it is possible.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
But on a bigger level on a broader level.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
if that makes sense, it does make sense.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, and then Alec had a roommate, mike Cannon, and
same thing he's doing great.
It seemed like he would changejobs a lot but he was always
trying to better himself andmove up and again was doing
(17:33):
great and then had some just badthings.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
He was poisoned by fentanyl.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Oh gosh, and losing him was hard.
I wasn't as close to Mike, butit was super hard too, because
kind of you know, when you losesomebody close, it's always
people that think like you don'twant to talk about it, but you
do want to talk about it.
And Mike was one of those thatwe could talk to and laugh about
(18:03):
the stories, because Alec andhim were roommates, so it was
like we lost that too.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
We lost a part of Alec again.
We lost another piece of Alec.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yes, because every time we would talk to him.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
like Jeff said, it was a new story about Alec that
we hadn't heard.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yes, we could laugh about stupid things that they
did, and so we were close withMike, but it certainly wasn't
like my dad or Alec, but it waslike losing another part of Alec
(18:40):
and losing Mike.
Because, now I know what lovedones close to him are having to
deal with, and we lost thatpiece selfishly.
He's a great person, but wealso got to live Alec's life
through him again.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Absolutely.
So what do y'all do?
How do you refuel in the midstof all this sadness?
I look at the two of you and Ithink about your vivacious
daughter and your great businessthat you all run and your
beautiful home and land and allthe things, and I I think from
(19:23):
the outside people wouldn't knowum this deep sadness that y'all
carry.
So what do you do?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
For me it's, um you know, faith is a lot Having a
belief in another life of heavenafter this.
Mm-hmm.
Like with Alec, he had demons,Even though he had a lot of good
(19:53):
times in life.
He also struggled withdepression.
He struggled with the addiction.
And I'm not saying that I, youknow, I'd rather Alec be here.
But I guess I tell myself and Ibelieve it's true, but maybe I
tell myself so many times that Ijust hope it's true or make
(20:18):
myself believe it.
But, like my dad told me, he'sgoing to a place where he wants
to be.
I'm like you know, Alec nowdoesn't have those struggles.
Alec is in a place where wemiss him.
But the other thing I think isthe biggest thing for me with my
(20:43):
dad and with Alec and with Joshand I'll get to another one,
unfortunately is, I know none ofthem would want me to sit here
and not try to enjoy life andnot try to enjoy life.
(21:04):
I know if Alec could come backand talk to me, or Amy
especially, the first thing hewould say is not that I miss you
, not that I love you, that, Mom, I'm okay.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I want you to be happy.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
And that voice does that drive you, then it does
when I get down, Because I'lltalk to Alec, I'll talk to Josh,
I'll talk to my dad.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Which may sound crazy , but we're all a little crazy,
right.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
We're all crazy in the door but he is as crazy does
.
But you know, they're all soclose that I can talk to them
and almost know what they wouldsay back and even sometimes it
might be a cuss word or twocoming from my like and I
picture riding in the car withhim, you know, or in, or with
(22:09):
josh working here at the houseand goofing off with him, and I
just like I see that joy and andwhat they would say to me, and
that brings me a lot of peace.
You know, I don't show the painand I don't like you said, a
lot of people don't see thegrief.
Mm-hmm.
(22:31):
But it's there.
But it is, I guess, manageablethat I know.
What they want from me is youknow, and what you want for your
kids is happiness.
Yeah, for me is you know, andwhat you want for your kids is
is happiness.
Yeah, if something happened tome, I don't want amy and layla
down here just sitting on thecouch crying every day yes yeah,
(22:52):
well, and that's weird.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
But sometimes I want to see jeff's grief, you know,
like, because he does go andit's I know he has it and I know
that he'll grieve or cry orwhatever he does away from me
and I try to do it away from him, but sometimes I just can't
hide it full, you know, fullterm, and sometimes I think that
(23:16):
I need to see Jeff's grief forAlec to know that he really does
Like, do you really miss him?
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:25):
you know like yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I think you're done Like what you know, but I know I
know that isn't true, Right.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, does it.
Just even today, amy, does this.
Um.
What does this do for yourheart?
Hearing Jeff talk through?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
some of this it's well, you know, and that is
something it warms my heart itdoes, and I think that it is
Jeff and I communicate a lot,and if I'm and that's something
that I think that we've we'vealways communicated well, but in
this we have to like we have tocommunicate because he doesn't
(24:01):
have any clean underwear rightnow, and you know and he knows.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Stuff that comes out of her mouth.
But I think the biggest thingthat goes along with the grace
is being able to tell yourspouse like hey, today is a
shitty day.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So I need grace, yeah , where I might not fuss about
dishes in the sink that day,like, okay, this really isn't a
big deal, because you do learnwith death that a lot of things
aren't a big deal.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, things that you thought were important gosh
really go by the wayside.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah.
If I get like I cleaned mytruck today and found my first
two big scratches on it and fora second I was kind of upset and
I'm like it's really not a bigdeal.
Fortunately, when you gothrough so much loss and pain,
you learn like do I really needto have this argument with my
(25:11):
wife?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I didn't scratch your truck.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Or my child.
It's possible.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
It's possible.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
But I really need to get upset about this because
it's really not a big deal.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I love that.
Grace and space.
That is so powerful.
I haven't heard those two terms, and what an easy two words to
remember.
And it's so powerful.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Well, the other thing , too, that I have learned is,
as a man, like I said, we wantto fix things.
If our daughter or son or wifecomes home and has a bad day, we
want to tell them how to fix it.
Yeah.
And I'm still not great at it,but I've gotten a lot better
that.
(25:59):
Really they just want to,especially with women.
They just want to tell you whatwent on and what's going on,
and really I just need to listenand say, oh, I bet that makes
you feel better I know you'reupset Instead of saying, well,
if you get up and go for a walk,it would make you feel better.
(26:21):
Yeah.
Which is what I really believesometimes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
And he still says that.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
But there's days, you know, like, I think my daughter
quit talking to me a little bitbecause I try to fix everything
.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And I had to learn.
Like I can't tell her how tomake friends or deal with
friends at school, I just needto listen, so those grace and
space and just listening insteadof trying to fix.
And if you've never seen thenail in the head.
(26:56):
Look it up and it'll explain alot.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I will do that it's funny.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
This lady literally has a nail in her head.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
All men need to watch nail in the head and learn to
ignore the nail.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I have seen it.
I know exactly what you'retalking about.
We need to put a link in ourdescription.
We have to oh my gosh, we willfor sure, yeah, where she's got
this giant nail in herdescription.
We have to.
Oh my gosh, we will for sure,yeah, where she's got this giant
nail in her head, my sweaterskeep snagging and he's like well
.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
She's just like quit trying to fix it.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's unbelievable.
Well, thank goodness you don'thave a nail in your head, amy,
but it feels like it on many,many days.
For sure, tell us about um justthis last, um major grief that
y'all have endured, just a hugeloss again yeah, so uh, brett,
(28:03):
his name was Brett Oglesby.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
We became friends in, I think, not positive but
around second grade.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Could have been a little earlier.
Some say first, some say second, but it's one of those friends
that you don't remember when youmet, because they've just
always been there.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Forever, friend yeah.
And we've been through so muchgreat things, so much bad things
together, and Brett struggledwith addiction.
He probably was sober for about10 years and helped so many
(28:46):
other people.
He helped us with Alec.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
So much Educated us on what addiction really was.
Wow.
What Alec was really feeling,as opposed to us just writing it
off.
You know, yeah, educated, notjust helped.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Yeah, going back to fixing it.
We're just like you.
Just got to stop, because thisis what happens and it's you
know not understanding theaddiction.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, it's a whole other just type of grief, right.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Not only was he a great friend, he helped a lot of
people in that.
And then, long story short, hegot CP3.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
CP3 is what it was finally.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Diagnosed?
I think yeah, and it wasdebilitating to him and he had
lost kind of the fun of livingand just was he tried everything
.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
He was diagnosed probably five or six years ago
with that.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Is that like a breathing lung?
Speaker 3 (29:53):
It's kind of like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Vestibular probably like.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Vertigo Meniere, something kind of like that.
But yeah but, you're alwayskind of felt a little dizzy or
off.
And even you know, three orfour years ago he told me like
if I can't figure out how to getthis fixed, I don't want to
live anymore.
The only reason I'm still evenhere is because of my faith in
(30:23):
my daughter and the people Ilove because of my faith in my
daughter and the people I love.
So eventually it won the battle.
But I know his faith was sostrong and he probably would
have taken his own life earlierif it wasn't for his faith in
his family but his quality oflife.
So, like I was saying with himhow I deal with it I was angry,
(30:51):
I was happy because he was sucha good friend and you don't like
to see people suffer and youknow, certainly sad and
depressed.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
But I still have.
We had kind of the family hereand had a ceremony, celebration
of life, and I've kept thosepictures out in our little
workshop garage and I don't knowwhen I'll take them down.
But you know, I talk to himwhen I'm out there and that's
the same thing.
Like I say, brett, I need tocall you today, and it's like,
(31:33):
and then I get mad and I getupset and then I'm like I just
hear him saying Jeff, my lifewas so miserable and I am so
happy now.
Yeah, because I do believe youknow that's where he is in
(31:55):
heaven.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
And he passed about two months ago just for the
listeners' time frame.
Yeah, I mean, it's still raw.
This is what.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
It was the day before Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
I mean, you're still processing it, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Yes, and I guess the hardest hurt I have with that is
with his wife and his daughter,with his wife and his daughter,
because again I feel like forhim, I need to fix those or try
(32:35):
to be there and stress do I doenough or do I not do anything?
So I think that's the biggesthardest thing for a man in this,
because we try to be strong andwe try not to share our
feelings and we want to fixthings and we don't especially
like I don't want Amy to see meupset, because I already know
(32:56):
she's upset or maybe she'shaving a good day and now I'm
going to bring her down.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, one of the things just as I'm listening, I
mean a message.
That is my takeaway is justyour ability to you know you put
the pictures on the wall, youtalk to your dad, you talk to
Alec, you talk to Brett thatyou're facing your grief, you're
(33:23):
surrounding your own self justwith those guys that you love
and you're willing to sit withyour grief at least a part of
the day.
And I know that's so painfuland yet I'm sure that's really
helpful.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, like I said, the only thing I can always go
back to is I know they want me.
Every one of them want me to beas happy as I can be.
They all want me to enjoy lifeas much as I can.
And that's difficult, a lot ofdays.
Yeah.
But if I want to honor them andnot let them have regrets or
(34:09):
anything, then that's what I gotto do.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, I think.
Sometimes I feel like if I'mhaving too good of a time, then
she feels guilty.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
There's guilt.
Amy does feel guilt.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
I think you know family vacations and she feels
guilty that she I don't wantthem to think that we're just,
we're happy they're gone, youknow, because I do believe that
they can see us and all thatkind of stuff, and I'm like, oh
well, look, they are finewithout me.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
You know, like their life is better without me and
it's not better, right, yeah,and so that's where I have
issues, right, and trying to tapinto that voice that you had
said, jeff, where you canimagine Alec coming and saying
Mom, I just want you to be happy.
Heck, yeah, yeah, saying mom, Ijust want you to be happy, yeah
(35:10):
, yeah.
So, amy, you and I have talkedin the last you know month that
you're just so sad and so angry.
And, um, and I know, jeff, yousaid you can see that in Amy,
that you know, you know, amy.
You said you, you don't haveany.
That you know, you know, amy.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
You said you don't have any you don't have any
clean underwear, you know and it.
But I mean I sent you a pictureof my closet.
One day you can walk in there,and that's not me.
Granted, I am a hoarder and aclutter freak, but I am good at
laundry.
Like and I told Jeff early inour marriage and I've said this
on here before too my laundryroom and my clothes and stuff
like that.
(35:46):
It shows, it mirrors, what mylife really is and it's.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah, when you know that when that's a mess, you
know you're having a hard time.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
Yes, but Amy is also.
She's good about not, you knownot, she needs her days, but she
doesn't.
She's good about not livingthat for try not to for too long
.
And if I need her to go besocial for a night or do
(36:18):
something, even if it's the lastthing she wants to do, she does
do that and I think that's justas important as the grace and
space to for each other to dothings that you don't want to do
because of your grief, becauseit's hard to go to the family my
side of the family vacation butI'm not going to miss it yeah
(36:42):
so, but she's going to, she'sgonna be there, um, and and I
appreciate that because it's sheyou both have to make
sacrifices and I think, I thinkit's important to, like I said,
we do communicate in it and Ithink that is the biggest,
biggest thing that has saved ourfaith is us.
(37:06):
And not sweating the small stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
For him not to sweat the small stuff, and for me to
yeah, to lean in and say yeswhen you can.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Not all the time like you do.
Speaker 4 (37:26):
Well, I'd say no plenty but I do have a yes
problem maybe Leaning in andstuff like that.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So well, it's kind of cool to get.
Is there anything else you wantto know from a man while we got
him pinned down right here?
I?
Speaker 1 (37:38):
know.
Well, if you had to say I mean,you've given such great advice,
the grace and space, but what'skind of your advice?
For how do you take care of you?
What is it that gives youbreath?
You said your faith, for sure.
(37:59):
You said hearing the voices ofthose you love, wanting you be
happy, but what is it that youcould say, like physically what?
What do you do?
What do you like?
Where do you go to sort of getthat um drive, I guess?
Speaker 3 (38:14):
I think there's a huge balance of like.
I don't want to say for all men, but I like to be selfish at
times and just whether it's goplay golf or go to my hunting
club, or I find my most peaceoutdoors.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
And he always he's a goer, he's a goer and a doer, so
he's always busy.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
And so Amy, is, you know, finding that balance where
Amy allows me to do a lot ofthat stuff?
finding that balance where Amyallows me to do a lot of that
stuff, but also still beingpresent with the family is.
But I think a key is I have toput on a face and Amy has to put
on a face at times at home forour daughter, for each other to
(39:10):
keep happiness, but alsoallowing that other one to have
that space and go out and notfeel like if she's having a bad
day, I need to stay right nextto her in the bed.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
He's allowed to have a good day and I have a bad day
For me a good day and him a badday.
We allow that, and that is, Ithink, something hard to
probably learn at the beginningis it has no reflection on him
how my day is.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
In your just day-to-day life you've had these
five compounded years of justgrief and grief.
How do you connect with oneanother in just this love
relationship?
How do you make sure that youhave time like date nights, or
you have this time for eachother?
(39:59):
Where do you carve that?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
in when you are caring so much.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Great question, Michelle in when you're caring
so much great question michelleno I think we, you know it like
a great night for us togetherbecause we're boring, it's
sitting and boring, the betterit's it's sitting and just kind
of being in the same roomwatching tv well, or sitting
outside when it's nice outside,we love we're the old people in
(40:27):
the rocking chairs on the patioand just watching the birds fly
in the grass grow and justtalking about yeah, dreaming
about whatever you know buildinga house, or just we're dreamers
and we just enjoy to.
We need imagination.
There's no magic wand andeverybody grieves different.
(40:53):
Because my grief may be ridingaround in my truck listening to
music that really brings mepeace and he does that a lot.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
He's got a song for everybody or more.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
They all have their own song.
Oh, I love that.
So when he's missing them,he'll play those songs.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
So that's great for me.
But, like I said, amy grievesdifferently.
You know hers is laying around,mine's driving around or going
down.
But you have to.
You know, for me I have to staybusy.
I've always said the idle timeis the devil time.
Then I sit around, then it'sjust going to get all in my head
(41:37):
and keep going and keep goingand getting worse and worse.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
And just knowing that there is a higher power and
that, for me, is God.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
And we will see him again one day.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Yes.
And when we get there, I don'twant them to say why did you
live your life in so muchsadness?
Mm-hmm.
And I want them to be able tosay like you celebrated me, you
remembered me.
(42:11):
I know that when you werefishing, you were talking to me.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
And you, you know, I'm glad that you enjoyed life,
because that's what I want.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
That's beautiful, jeff.
I love that.
Well, I don't know about you,amy, but, gosh, I got so much
from just hearing the two of youtalk.
I'm so sorry about all of thelosses.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
I just appreciate you sharing that it sucks on so
many levels, as we all know Toomany levels, I am certain of
that, yeah, but we appreciateyou.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
You know being vulnerable and sharing what
you've learned and the hard days, the good days and that space
and grace.
That's just amazing advice.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
You got to tell Jeremy that one.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
I am Make a t-, jeremy, that one, I am Make a
t-shirt, yes, I love it.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Well, thank y'all.
Thank you, Michelle, for takingtime and doing this.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yes, appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Yes, well, until next time, we'll post, for sure, the
nail head link.
We got to find it and post it.
We'll find it and put it onthere.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Some very, very important.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
It was a pivotal moment in his life where it just
like clicked, he got it.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
Don't fix it, just listen.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Just listen Even if she's got a nail sticking all
the way through her head.
That's so good Well thank youall.
Thank you, good night and we'lltalk soon.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Bye.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
Bye-bye.
Popular Podcasts
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!