December 25, 2024 • 43 mins
Could the treasures of ancient Rome be hidden within the Vatican's walls? We embark on a speculative journey into the historical mysteries of the Roman Empire's wealth and its potential ties to the Roman Catholic Church. Gathered in a cozy holiday atmosphere with special guests Rob, Jonathan, and our mom, we enjoy a spirited conversation that weaves together familial warmth with the enigmatic allure of history. This festive setting provides the perfect backdrop for pondering how much of the past is hidden in plain sight.
Then, brace yourself for a chilling exploration of Gary Hilton, the National Forest Killer. Between 2007 and 2008, Hilton's sinister activities left a trail of horror from North Carolina to Florida, targeting isolated individuals in national forests. We dissect his methodical madness, the peculiarities of his crimes, and the broader implications of his actions. As we unravel specific cases like the tragic ends of John and Irene Bryant and Cheryl Dunlap, a haunting picture emerges, illustrating a man whose cruelty contrasted sharply with his odd displays of empathy toward animals.
The episode takes a deeper dive into the peculiarities of Hilton's capture, including the curious case of his green van and his strategic bargaining to save his beloved dog. Was Hilton's history of violence even longer and darker than initially believed? We contemplate this possibility, drawing parallels with other notorious criminals and reflecting on the psychological complexities that defined Hilton's twisted persona. Join us for a gripping exploration of the blurred lines between history's mysteries and the shadowy aspects of human nature.
If you'd like to show your support for Wicked Wanderings and join our community of dedicated listeners, you can start contributing for as little as $3 a month. Your support helps us continue to explore the darkest and most intriguing mysteries, bringing you captivating stories from the world of true crime and the unexplained. Click the link to become a valued member of our podcast family.
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So there's this guy on TikTok that has this theory.
So you know how the RomanEmpire fell.
Right, he's saying that theRoman Empire never fell.
Rome fell, but the Roman Empireand all the money and prestige
that went with it is in thechurch.
So the Vatican, the Catholics.
I think that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The Roman Catholics.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I think it's a really interesting theory.
I think it's a reallyinteresting theory.
I think it's a good theory, butI don't necessarily.
I mean they've not made theconnection between money from
the Roman Empire and the currentRoman Catholic Church.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Doesn't mean it's not there.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Their monuments, their roads, their buildings are
still there, but I think it'sseparate from the Catholic
Church.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, I think it's a cool theory, but I don't think
that there's any real fact thatcan back that up.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
But there is a lot of wealth in the Catholic Church
still and there are a lot ofpaintings and very valuable
artifacts that we don't see,probably will never see.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Anybody else, go ahead, tell me I'm wrong.
Valuable artifacts that are inthe we don't see.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Probably we'll never see anybody else go ahead tell
me I'm wrong, okay hi, I'mhannah and I'm courtney.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal
encounters and all things spooky.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
This is Wicked Wanderers.
Hello Courtney, Hi Anna.
This episode is a littledifferent because we're not at
my house, we're at my mom'shouse and we have special guests
.
So, hi Rob, Hello.
And we have my mother here,hello and my brother, jonathan,
which some people actually askedfor.
So here he is.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Hello, I do want to say Merry Christmas to everyone,
because this episode is comingout on the 25th, so if you are
opening up presents witheveryone while listening to
Wicked Wandering, thank you verymuch, merry Christmas.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
We should probably toss in.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
sometimes we use explicatives, so if you're
around family with children.
Yeah, yeah, caution on that.
Turn it down.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So today's episode is actually brought by the one,
the only, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So I wanted to talk today about Gary Hilton, who's
known as the National ForestKiller.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's a very big name.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Any relation to the Hilton Hotels, Hiltons.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
No, I don't think this is like Paris Hilton's
uncle, but anyway, Look, do youimagine?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, depending on what year it was, you know, I
didn't know if it was adescendant of any sort, you know
.
So it was a legitimate question.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
No, this guy is like born 1946.
So he's like in his late 70snow.
Is that right?
No, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Thank you, anyway.
So this I'm going to talk abouta series of four murders that
he was accused of and wasactually tried for that take
place between 2007 and 2008.
Honestly, like our story startsin October 2007 and kind of
wraps up in February, though thetrials were anywhere from
between 2009 and 2012 formurders that took place over
(03:36):
those couple of months with.
Is that because most of hismurders actually occurred within
national force, the FBI wasinvolved because their national
force is federal level, which issuper interesting.
So they had all these FBIprofilers.
Take a look at Gary Hilton andeverything he had admitted to
(04:00):
and he went on trial for, andthey all agree that, even though
he was in the 60s by the timehe started these murders that he
was actually convicted of uh,these were definitely not his
first.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Uh, these were among his last I was gonna say,
because that's kind of like aweird time to start killing
people.
Yeah, exactly, just decide heythis is where I'm gonna yeah,
and then he was busy.
Now, what am I gonna do?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
so if you take a look at and look up Gary Hilton,
there's a whole list of othermurders that anywhere from like
the mid 90s straight through the2000s, before he ends up in
jail that are like his MO, butneither not enough evidence or
didn't quite fit everything elsehe had done or he hadn't
(04:42):
admitted to.
So a lot of interesting things,um, but we're talking about the
uh, the key three scenarios,the four murders that led to his
capture and sentencing in 2007,2008, uh, but again, as I
mentioned, there's a lot ofother ones that are connected to
him.
Uh, just nothing's proven, um,and then I'll be talking about
an attempted kidnapping by himthat I have a direct connection
(05:06):
to, um, and so I wanted to startwith like I'm sorry that just
is a great like all right onetruth and a lot no, two truths
and I, yeah for a party he justlike drops all that on us
and he's like wait, I'm gonnaget there.
I'm gonna get there.
Now stick with me for like anintro to a movie plot twist so
do you want to take a look athis mo before we go into the uh,
(05:28):
four stories that they have,because I think it's important
to kind of like keep thosethings in mind as we're talking
about, um, these murders and oneattempted abduction.
Um, because it is a little bitdifferent than other serial
killers, right, um, we're usedto talking about serial killers
that they liked a certainphysical appearance or a certain
age, or um well, no, never mind.
(05:49):
I was gonna say certain hunt andground, but obviously he has a
certain ground, never minddefinitely he aligned with a
certain area but his murderstake place everywhere between
north carolina, georgia andflorida.
So I actually went and took a umas I was reading more about him
, actually went on Google Mapsand mapped all of these
locations so where these fourpeople were abducted, where they
(06:16):
were, their bodies were foundand then any other key moments
in their murder trials whereGary Hilton kind of popped up
and it's all in this kind ofvery straight corridor from
North Carolina Tennessee borderstraight down through Georgia to
the Tallahassee area in Florida, which is really interesting.
(06:39):
It also makes sense becauseAtlanta is roughly in the center
of that range and that's wherehe lived.
It also makes sense becauseAtlanta is roughly in the center
of that range and that's wherehe lived.
So a couple of key things abouthis MO One Gary Hilton was
always looking for someone whowas vulnerable.
So in general he wasn'tspecific on age young versus old
.
He wasn't looking for aparticular look or a particular
(07:02):
ethnicity or a particular job,etc.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
He was looking just for.
That's what I was gonna ask no,not that either.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Just started with vulnerability, so this could
mean very young somebody wholooked like they were a teenager
or in college, uh, or someonewho was very old.
His first two victims thatwe're going to be talking about,
the bryant, were in their 80s,um.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Who does that?
Old people.
I mean kids too, but old peopleI know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
He was looking for them to be alone.
Now the Bryants were the firstmurder I'm going to mention
Again.
They were in their 80s but alsothey were together.
But they also had a lot ofvulnerability because they were
senior citizens in a nationalpark.
He was also looking forvulnerability.
He liked that most of hisvictims were from out of state.
So there's a few caveats tothat in some of his accused
(07:51):
murders, but that's kind of likekey number two he always liked
a victim who was from out ofstate because they weren't
nearly as familiar with the area, particularly the national
parks, as he was.
And on top of that, when theywere murdered people wouldn't
likely be missing them asquickly.
So there's one particularvictim, cheryl Dunlap, who was
(08:13):
immediately missed because shedidn't show up to teach Sunday
school.
So immediately they wentlooking for her.
But most of these people werelike on vacation, they were
going to national parks, theywere hiking and some people
didn't report them for up to twoweeks later, right, because
you're waiting for your familyto come back from a trip.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You're not thinking, oh, they're just busy, they're
having a good time, that's why Ican't get in touch with them it
kind of reminds me of the casethat you did where uh, I forgot
his name, oh it was.
You read two books on him.
Yeah, oh gosh, oh gosh.
Tony Tony Costa, and thosegirls that they were just in the
same housing with him, yeah,yeah, it was total fluke.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
They ended up basically staying at this house,
where he was not a seasonalboarder, but he was there for a
longer term, and so they endedup just bumping into him.
When they were away on aweekend trip, and it took them
until know monday morning, oneof them didn't show up for work
in order to be reported missing,because she was a school
teacher and she would have nevermissed.
But what was the one that theysaid?
She went to mexico.
Oh yeah, well, she was.
Um, I think they described heras a hippie.
(09:12):
So it was like, oh, you know,she's fleeting, she's here,
she's there, she's, you know,sexually free, she's using drugs
.
They were just kind of like ohyeah, she's in mexico, but it
was like four weeks beforesomebody actually was like you
know.
Maybe we should check on that.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah, so the last piece I'll mention in his MO is
near or in a national forest, soI'd already kind of mentioned
that.
But this was the really bigidentifier.
That's why he's called theNational Park of the National
Forest Killer A really big dealfor him and the reason we call
him what we do.
He either found his victims inthese forests, found them near
(09:48):
them and then took them into theforest for their murder and
then most often disposed of themin national forests Did not
necessarily need to be the samenational forest in which they
were murdered, which is alsoreally interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
It is yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
I mean how?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
many bodies are probably in the woods that we
just don't know about.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
Well, at least you know where to check National
Forest.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
So let's start with our first three murder cases,
four individual murders John andIrene Bryant, which I already
mentioned.
This is October 2007.
This is kind of what kicks offthe snowball.
That kind of gets them capturedin the end.
They're a retired couple intheir 80s.
They left their home inHorseshoe, north Carolina.
So this is right on the borderbasically with close to
(10:32):
Tennessee, but also the otherborders of South Carolina and
Georgia.
They all kind of converge inthe same area.
So they leave their home inHorseshoe, north Carolina, to
hike in the Pisag I'm going tomispronounce that National
Forest.
This is about a 35-minute trip.
So after two weeks familymembers call in law enforcement
(10:53):
and they're like, hey, we can'tget a hold of them.
This is really strange.
And after several searches theyfind Irene's remains in early
November.
So disappear in October.
Do multiple searches earlyNovember, so disappear in
October.
Do multiple searches EarlyNovember.
We're a month later.
They find Irene's remains.
Just the one, not her husband,but not her husband John.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Interesting okay.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Because it was a national force, the FBI was
called in.
That's why we get a really goodprofile of Gary Hilton in the
end, because there's so many FBIprofilers on the case in the
end.
And they also launched a tenthousand dollar reward for
information right at this point.
Uh, they still thought john wasalive.
They thought he was just beingkilled captive by whoever
(11:35):
murdered irene during this time.
They also discovered that johnmade a 911 call the day of their
disappearance back in october,but the signal dropped because
they were in the National.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Forest.
So they never suspected John,like, even though he didn't kill
his wife.
I just you know.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
That's so true, though, if you think about it
too Like oh, he tried to placethe 911 call Conveniently, it
dropped, he's nowhere to be seen.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
They immediately were like he's being held captive.
It's an interesting joke.
For me, I would be like oh no,it was the husband.
We always assume it was thehusband right F those husbands.
Speaker 5 (12:04):
It's always them.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
And in addition to that, right around the same time
they discovered a Caucasian manhad used the Bryant's ATM card
to withdraw $300 from a bank inTennessee.
This is right over the borders,not that far away.
So now we have a partial,obscured visual of the man we'll
later know as gary hilton, umso kind of taking a pause there,
(12:30):
moving kind of chronologicallyinto the next murder, cheryl
dunlap.
So, uh, we're now in december,um months later, and all of this
is going on around thetennessee slash north carolina
border.
Cheryl Dunlap this is nowDecember 2007,.
Middle-aged woman fromCrawfordville, florida, so think
we're now far south hour south,straight through Georgia, into
(12:52):
the border with Georgia andFlorida.
She didn't show up to teachSunday school in early December
and her absence was immediatelyreported to authorities on that
following Monday.
Later that week a search partyof over 180 people was organized
, with absolutely no results.
At this point they were stillhoping she was alive by
(13:14):
mid-December, so hardly like.
Two weeks later, a hunterstumbled on decomposing remains
of a white female in theAppalachicola State Forest,
which were later identified asDunlaps.
Aww and I want to talk about theAppalachicola State Forest in
just a second.
At the exact same time whenthey finally find her remains,
they see that her ATM card hadbeen used in Tallahassee five
(13:37):
times, withdrawing a total of$700.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
Wow, which is so interesting.
Yeah, it's like he's notkilling for money, because
you're not getting very much.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I mean, I hate to say that there'd be a lot of value
on taking someone's life.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
There isn't for me, but I would imagine it wouldn't
be a couple hundred dollars.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
How is he killing them again?
I don't think he's got thereyet.
Okay, all right, sorry if I'mskipping ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
I could talk a little bit about that moment, like,
hey, this is what's available tome.
Yes, and there are some thingsabout Gary Hilton Like he's
known as this kind of reallystrange guy who always hikes
with his dog through nationalparks, particularly up in
(14:19):
Georgia, where he was livingoutside of Atlanta.
He's known as a hothead and alittle bit crazy.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Okay.
He's known as a hothead and alittle bit crazy, so that would
fit the opportunistic like ohyou're here and you're
inconveniencing me in some way,and here's a lamp.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
And you're vulnerable and you're in a national park,
or I brought you to a nationalpark.
Some of it, some of the oneshe's accused of, sound like they
were totally premeditated.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Because he's moving people and bodies all over the
place and then some of them justlook like he was in the
national forest and he justdecided you're alone, you're my
person, bludgeon you to deaththe ones, hannah and I love the
most the classic.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
What is going on inside their head?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
seriously, is it?
Speaker 5 (14:58):
one motive, is it multiple?
And then it's like, how doessomebody get to that point?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
because another point to it can't be money motivated,
like if it is opportunistic andthey're vulnerable, just mug
them and take their debit card.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
They don't know how to kill them knowing.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Okay, they must have money right because right now he
has two murders, one suspectedmurder under his bell, at the
very least, uh, and he's onlystolen about a thousand dollars
right.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
I mean he is going after what seems like sometimes
like tourists too, but does heknow that they're tourists?
You know what I mean?
Because someone who's goingplaces and they're traveling
you're going to expect that theyhave cash on them, or that they
have at least enough money andfunds on their debit card,
because they're travelingthey're going to need money.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So like Cheryl Dunlap is like one person who doesn't
perfectly fit the MO, but he didadmit to her murder.
I mean she was a local person.
So Apalachicola State Forest isright around the area of
Tallahassee where she lived.
So this was not an in-stateout-of-state.
This was just vulnerabilityFascinating.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Very.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
But before I get to talk a little bit about the
Apalachicola State Forestbecause it'll come up in the
attempted abduction later thatI'll talk about is that in
general.
By this point, with CherylDunlap, there were concerns by
the community that a killer wasoperating on the Georgia-Florida
border, but authorities thoughtthat she was just an isolated
incident.
(16:17):
But they continue to look forsuspicious green truck, which
will pop up in many of themurders he is convicted of as
well as accused of.
So let's take a moment to talkabout the Apalachicola State
Forest, right?
This is a huge area of landaround Tallahassee, florida,
that basically goes south fromTallahassee all the way to the
(16:39):
Florida Panhandle Coast.
That's, on the Gulf of Mexico,right?
So think of it as thisincredibly dense kind of creepy,
swamp-like forest, and it will,of course, pop up again, not
just with Cheryl Dunlap, butalso with the attempted
kidnapping that I'll talk aboutat the end.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So currently we have three victims, but only two have
been found.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
We found we have the John and Irene Bryant.
We're assuming John is stillabducted.
Irene's body has been found andthen we have finally found
Cheryl Dunlap's body as well,and we're only in mid-December
2007.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
And how long sorry, how long has it been since John
and Irene?
They're just assuming he's beencaptive for like four weeks.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
That was roughly early October, so now we're in
mid-December.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
So we're like pushing eight weeks.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, we're in the december, okay, so we're like
pushing eight weeks.
Yeah, we're like going past 10weeks, yeah, okay, which already
like, even if not knowing abackstory of this guy.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
It'd be so weird for him to hold an 80 year old man
captive right, I still think my,my own, just not where I'm like
how do we not know that?
How are we not questioning?
The husband did this and he'sjust off living his best life.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean they read with200.
The only thing I can add tothat is that they did find the
Bryant vehicle parked in theparking lot for the National
Forest, where they were hiking.
I can see how they did that,and that was found a few days
after they disappeared, well,after they had been called in
two weeks later.
So I feel like I'm hip hoppingand skipping, but I hope this
(18:04):
comes out clear.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Nope, that's what happens with these podcasts.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
We do that every single time, cause in order to
tell it you're like.
Well, you have to understandthis first.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Uh, next victim was Meredith Emerson, and this is
actually New Year's day, 2008.
So this is only a few weeksafter.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
You go in, he's like 2008's my year.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Uh, 24 year old.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Uh, she uh, 24 year old.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Uh, she goes for a hike on uh, a blood mountain,
which is actually, oh god, ingeorgia's vogel state park.
Uh, with her black lab, ella, uhthis park is in northern
georgia, not too far from thenorth carolina border, um, and
uh, the national forest wherethe bryants went missing, um, so
bring us back to kind of thinkabout this kind of corridor.
So we're thinking about theclose borders of North Carolina,
(18:54):
georgia, south Carolina andTennessee, and then the border
of Georgia and Florida, where wehave most of these events
taking place at the moment.
This part really hits me.
While she's on this hike withher black lab, several witnesses
later came forward and saidthat they had passed her on the
(19:17):
trail and said that mysteriousolder man with a dog was
following her.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And they multiple different.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
They just didn't do anything, and nobody did
anything about it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
keep following they were just like oh, that man's
really creepy and he has a dogand he keeps following her I'm
not gonna call him out or callthe police and there's multiple
different hikers that you passedon that day so, rob, I really
want to bring you in on this.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Like you hike a lot right on the appalachian trail
yeah can you tell the differencebetween people?
Oh, we're on the same.
We're going north or south orwhatever.
And then someone being creepyand following very close.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
No, not really.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I suppose in hindsight and I'm thinking about
it we've all been someplace andwe're like, oh, that didn't
seem weird at the time.
But then somebody says, oh,there was a person doing this at
the Holyoke Mall.
And we're like, oh, I was thereand there was a man doing this,
and there was a man doing this.
So I wonder if it's just peoplesaying like, oh, after the fact
.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Well, 2020 vision.
They were there, he was kind ofcreepy, now that you mention it
, but I didn't think so at thetime.
I just hate that like 2020vision going back and going like
oh he looks kind of creepy, butshe'll be fine.
I think I would.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
I would say something I think especially now.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I would still probably like check in with her,
even as a stranger being likeyou're, a single woman alone on
the trail?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Do you know this single man?
So, but so that's January 1st2008.
By January 3rd, they find hercar and also identify the man
who followed her as Gary Hilton.
So, as the investigationcontinues, they're getting more
information about Gary Hilton.
He's known as a drifter withreally strange behaviors and an
(20:53):
extraordinarily bad temper, whooften walked his dog,
particularly in Vogel State Parkin Georgia, and he is now, by
this point in January 2008, anofficial person of interest, but
only in Meredith Emerson'sdisappearance by January 4th.
Again, this investigation isgoing a lot faster than the last
year that we talked aboutMeredith's dog.
(21:15):
Ella was found wandering in alocal grocery store parking lot
and was returned to Meredith'sfamily.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
Oh, I'm so glad he didn't hurt the dog.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I wanted to just mention that.
Yes, by January 5th they findmultiple items belonging to
Meredith Emerson in a dumpsterof a quick trip convenience
store in Cumming, Georgia.
This is a little bit of adistance from where she
disappeared.
Were directly tied to her, likeher university.
(21:56):
ID her driver's license,bloodied clothing, bloodied
wallet and, most important, abloodied car seat belt, which
will come out later, becausethese items would directly lead
to Hilton's arrest, though thesearch for Meredith Emerson's
body in the Chattahoochee StateForest would still continue, and
that's kind of the area aroundthe Vogel State Park Upon
examining Hilton's green vanbecause, remember, we're
starting to hear green vanpopping up in multiple different
(22:16):
scenarios, particularlyDunlap's murder authorities
found that the rear seatbelt wasmissing and perfectly matched
the bloodied seatbelt that theyfound in the dumpster in georgia
uh, that had um meredithemerson's uh blood on it I
wonder why he cut it out, nina,something quick as well I can
(22:37):
think of.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
It was there.
And if you've got a pocketknife, wait to to what?
To, I'm assuming, stranglesomebody or restrain them in
some capacity?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I think that's a really would seep out, for I
didn't even think about that.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
It's opportunistic.
It's right there and you needsomething quickly.
If you're carrying a pocketknife because you're hiking I
mean most people who hike, right, they carry a pocket knife you
just quickly.
Okay, this person's doingsomething.
I didn't plan on it.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I just cut this out like a piece of rope just wonder
if it was strangulation wherethe blood came from, because
with strangulation you don't getblood because he was mostly
known for like blunt force butrestraining or I don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Maybe he hit her and then took her body someplace and
she bled out onto the seatbeltso he had to cut it out, so it
wasn't in his van and the reasonthey were able to able to uh
connect gary hilton with thegreen van um and then with her
murder after all of these otherthings, is that multiple
witnesses came forward afterthey said we're looking for this
like very particular green van.
(23:33):
They were like, oh, there'sthis like really creepy guy at
the local gas station cleaningout his creepy green van, and
that's where they found him andarrested him.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
And nobody would have thought that was creepy until
someone was asking about it?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I would have thought it was creepy.
But again, this is a total.
Another moment where he'staking a victim from one state
forest and actually moving theirbody to another one or another
part of the state forest Weird,so he's getting a little erratic
, I think.
By this point, once he'sarrested, arrested and again
(24:06):
he's only being accused of onemurder meredith emerson's uh.
In exchange for the guaranteedrehoming of his dog and dropping
the death penalty, um, heagreed to share where meredith
emerson's body was.
This led authorities to findher decapitated body, uh, at the
dawson Management Area.
Speaker 5 (24:26):
There's your seatbelt situation.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Quite a distance from Vogel State Park, where she
originally disappeared.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So they were going to give him the death penalty for
one murder?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Well it was on the table.
I feel like that's very unheardof.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
They probably did it in order to make him do a deal.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
They probably said this is what we're putting out
there in order to barter.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Can I ask you behavioral analyst experts?
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Okay, how does someone who was obviously so
psychopathic if that's the rightword be so just empathic and so
caring about his dog?
That seems to me almost.
I don't know, it just seems,yeah, it's just seems.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah, the way we relate to animals and objects, I
would say, is very differentthan the way we like interact
with other people.
I think, working with theautistic population, I've
learned that they can, you know,they might have a favorite
object, right, hannah, wherethey're like I love this lamp
and I'm never gonna let anybodytouch it.
And it's different than the waythey feel about people.
It's, it's a different type ofattachment, I would say, and
it's actually not unusual.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
No, so when you, when you talk about like psychopaths
, like, oh yeah, they startkilling animals when they were
younger, yes, there is that onepiece to them that could make
them a psychopath, but there area lot of cases where they
actually have an animal thatthey love and they they're upset
when they get hurt, which isinteresting.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I just find that remarkable.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Thank you.
It is an interesting thing.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
It's a non-judgmental being Right, because you know
dogs don't always behave and nomatter how much you love them,
you can lose your temper ifthey're not behaving or doing
what they're supposed to do.
And it seemed like how could hehave a dog that he loves so
much that he's giving away hisown freedom to make sure his dog
(26:11):
is taken care of?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And he also didn't hurt Meredith's dog.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
And that's true, I know I was happy about that.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I wanted to make that mention specifically.
Like A, I wanted as part of thestory to be like at least the
dog got back to Meredith'sfamily, you know, got back to,
um, meredith's family.
but also I'm wondering if hepurposely moved the dog or, uh,
uh, secured meredith's dog, ella, in a way that like he was
going to murder meredith one wayor another, but like he felt
(26:41):
empathetic for the dog and maybegot the dog to a very public
place, because the dog was likewould have had to walk quite a
distance from the state parkwhere Meredith went missing to
get to a Kroger parking lotwhere he was obviously seen, or
she.
Okay, so I wanted to make thatconnection too, which I thought
was really interesting.
Okay, cool, so by this timewe're basically in January 2008.
(27:05):
By next month, february 2008, ahunter found a skull in the
Nantahala State Forest with apelvis and spine about 20 yards
away.
These would later be found tobe John Bryant's body or part of
his body anyway, he wasdismembered then.
So there's this weird as I wasdoing even more reading and I
(27:26):
didn't include it specificallyhere because it was getting a
little complicated, but towardsthis, like 2007, 2008,.
It's almost like Gary Hiltonwas experimenting with some
things yeah.
Like you know, one of hisvictims that we already talked
about, her head had been removed.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, his MO is very erratic.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
But like he has some core pieces but like some of the
bodies were found completelyintact.
But as we get later and maybehe's getting more frenetic or
there are more things, he's like, you know, dropping some things
, so to speak, in trying tocover up after himself.
He's like experimenting with,like okay, if I were to
decapitate their head and movethe head somewhere else, maybe
(28:05):
it's more difficult to identifythe body and put it back to me.
Speaker 5 (28:08):
The only other thing I can think of is maybe he was
trying to make it look like allof them weren't connected.
So, like a lot of people whoare looking at behavior, they're
going to say, okay, well, itwas very different, you know
locations or, like you said, notfitting the same type of person
.
I feel like maybe he could havebeen saying okay, I know
there's somebody else out heredoing this kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
What if I yeah, there's dumping grounds.
Because didn't Bundy havedumping grounds?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
He always had an area .
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yes, he did.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yes, he did.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Bundy.
But just to make another note,where John Bryant's body was
found was quite a distance fromwhere they had originally
disappeared and where they foundhis wife Irene's body.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
So by this point he's not just murdering victims
taking their atm cards andrunning and just leaving their
bodies spending some qualitytime.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
He's moving them around they're moving across um
some state lines.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
In some cases he's moving body parts it's hard not
to flick messages in there likelike is he trying to lead like
one in every place?
Does he ever duplicate like twomurders in one location?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
um, I think it's difficult to establish that
pattern with only these four.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
Yeah, because they could just be in different
places, because they were, butlike the Bryans they were all
both in one spot.
So he put one there and then hemoved to one, then he moved.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
John and some experts thought that maybe John was
abducted and Irene was murderedand left nearby and he held on
to John for a couple of days totry and get more bank details
from him before finallymurdering him.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
But I'm going back to like the bones, like is it
possible?
Like okay, so he could have, hemutilated the body, obviously,
but it's possible that the boneswere just dragged away by
animals.
That's also true.
It's true, that's true.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Because we have to remember that they went missing
in October 2007,.
And his body wasn't found untilFebruary 2008.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Yeah, he was out there a while.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So he could have dragged John along for the ride
for a couple of weeks and thendecided this is where I'm going
to drop him.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
And then we still, by that point, even if it's early
November, we have November,december.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
January Right, we basically have three to four
months and they don't reallyhave much of a winter down that
far, right.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
That's correct.
There's no heavy snow.
It's not like here, where it'spreserved.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yeah, because it's cold.
Is he using the state forestIsolation?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Probably.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's what I would think I mean it's definitely
connected to.
He's known to hike trails in avariety of different state
forests with his dog, so he hasgreat familiarity with the
(30:43):
places where he's findingvictims or murdering them or
dropping them off afterwards.
I also think the isolationmakes a big deal.
I think there's a variety offactors of why he picked
national forests the way he did.
But again, he's moving acrossfour states but all national
forests.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
He's obviously living in that green van, so chances
are he might be camping in thoseforests.
So that's home territory forhim.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And it would actually be.
You know so.
So by this point we're in early2008.
Um, all four of the bodies thathave we talked about have been
found.
Um, and the trial for thedunlap's uh, dunlap's murder
wouldn't take place until 2009,and the bryant murders, which
were, in this case, the firstmurders on our set, wouldn't
have placed until 2012.
Um, but with the dunlap murder,um, somebody came forward with
(31:28):
they had found a whole bunch ofhis um camping equipment,
because by this time he's injail in early 2008.
In 2009, they found all of hiscamping equipment abandoned, and
so they gave it toinvestigators and they used it
as a lot of evidence for theDunlap murder trial.
So those are the murders I wantto talk about Three different
(31:50):
kind of situations, fourdifferent murders and then one
attempted abduction.
And so this is where it kind ofgets connected to me, because
it was actually myex-brother-in-law.
So almost every year when I wasmarried, my ex and I would join
his family on an island calledSt George, and this is off the
panhandle of Florida beautifulBay of Mexico.
(32:11):
It's basically an oversizedsandbar, but it's actually
really stunning.
To get there.
We'd have to take a reallyexhausting trip from New York
City, basically getting up at 3am to catch an early flight from
LaGuardia or JFK and thengetting to Atlanta, waiting
several hours so we could takeout basically a hopper flight to
Tallahassee, and if you'venever been to the Tallahassee
(32:33):
airport, it technically has twoterminals, but it's just one
long hallway.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Worse than Bradley.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
It is one long hallway with, I think, maybe
four gates, two of which theyuse Wow.
So it's tiny, tiny, tiny tiny.
And then once we got toTallahassee, we'd either rent a
car or we would get picked up inTallahassee and then there was
a several-hour drive to get downto the coast and most of this
was through the ApalachicolaState Forest.
While we were on our way,probably about 45 minutes from
(33:07):
the Tallahassee Airport goingsouth towards the coast, we
would stop at a Walmartsupercenter to load up on all
the things we would need to havein the house at the beach for a
week, because this was reallythe only major grocery center
between Tallahassee and StGeorge and prevented us from
having to go to that veryexpensive local Piggly Wiggly
that was on the island.
And of course, this Walmart isalmost completely surrounded by
(33:32):
the Appalachical Estate Forest.
And each time a member of myex's family would mention oh,
remember that time Stuart wasalmost abducted and everybody
would laugh and they would tellthe story over again.
And it was honestly the lastyear I ever went down with them.
I started asking a lot ofquestions, you know, and they
would repeat the story and kindof go over and sometimes they
(33:52):
would have a few new details orand again it was kind of very
jovial and funny because nothingactually happened.
But basically, while I wasasking them questions it was
like oh, tell me more.
You know we're in theApalachicola State Forest, it's
Tallahassee, it was an abduction.
And I'm Googling things aroundand I finally go oh, and they
had mentioned it's an older,kind of strange looking older
(34:13):
white man who had kind ofapproached my brother-in-law and
I found a photo of Gary Hiltonand I said is this the guy?
And they turned around and goyeah, that's him.
So that's Gary Hilton.
So yeah, here's the story.
Story goes, and I think thishappened in about 2007.
So this would be a little bit.
This would basically be thesummer before the murders we
just talked about took place.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
How old was Stuart at the time?
John?
Speaker 3 (34:36):
He would have been a late teenager, but Stuart's also
very young youth, very young,youthful looking.
So he would have looked evenyounger, probably would have
been 17, 18 by the time.
So on their annual family tripdown from Atlanta, driving
through Tallahassee to get to StGeorge Island, they stopped, as
they did every year at the sameWalmart in the Appalachian
State Forest to stock up.
(34:56):
My brother-in-law, stuart, wasbasically a late teenager at the
time, very youthful looking,and after he was shopping in
Walmart with his parents, hewalked out to the car solo, and
the car, of course, because theycame from Atlanta, had
out-of-state plates with Georgiaon the back Alone.
He was then approached becausehe hadn't gotten to the car yet
(35:17):
because he didn't have a key,was approached by a disheveled
older man who asked him for help.
He said that he needed to rideto local mechanics as his car
had broken down so that he couldget a tow.
This wasn't entirely unusual.
I mean, it's the South.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Everyone's very friendly.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Always trying to help your neighbor Not everybody had
cell phones there, especiallyin this area of Florida.
So nothing unusual but for youknow, asking somebody for help.
But something felt very off andas the man got closer to Stuart
, my father-in-law exitedWalmart at that time, saw
something was going on, that hisson was kind of being backed up
(35:55):
to the car by this older kindof disheveled looking man, and
ended up yelling at him and theman ran away, got into his car
and left, so obviously his carhad not broken down.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Right right.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Basically, the man had realized that Stuart was not
alone and took off in his owncar.
The strangest part of thisstory and I think this ties back
to Gary Hilton's like extreme.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Mania.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Well mania, but also like anger and flared temper.
As he left, he yelled back youdamn Yankees.
And then that was it.
During the retelling of thestory, though, the family would
always tease my mother-in-law,who, they said at the time, was
much less upset that her son hadalmost been abducted and much
(36:39):
more upset that she'd beencalled a Yankee, which I always
thought was funny.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
That's very offensive more upset that she'd been
called a Yankee, which I alwaysthought was funny.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
That's very offensive .
But to bring this back to GaryHilton's MO vulnerability, he
was obviously from out of state.
He looked like a teenager, buteven younger.
He was alone.
Definitely from out of state,as I mentioned, georgia State
plates and basically in themiddle of the Appalachicola
(37:06):
State Forest where we know laterhe would murder.
So why don't I go back?
Do you want me to go back asfar as the Yankee explanation?
Well, I want to know why the guy, gary, called you guys a Yankee
, because wasn't your in-lawsfrom Georgia, which is not
Yankee territory, no, but theunderstanding that I have is
that because so many people fromnorthern states have moved to
(37:28):
Georgia, it looked like theywere just a family, probably
from the north, who had moved toGeorgia and they were taking up
room in places like Floridagoing on vacation, that's
interesting and honestly, downsouth there's fewer things that
are more insulting than beingcalled a Yankee.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
We're an insult who knew but wanted to go back, kind
of like let's stack up this,you know, potential abduction by
Gary Hilton back to his core MO.
As I mentioned, vulnerability,so we have a teenager who looks
even younger than a teenager, um, completely alone, um.
And number two, alsovulnerability, out of state,
(38:13):
obviously, because they hadgeorgia state plates and right
in the middle of theapalachicola state forest, where
we've already learned um that,uh, cheryl dunlap, uh would be
dragged, murdered and then foundlater.
So Hilton is still in jail,with multiple life sentences as
(38:34):
well as a death penalty fromFlorida.
He's in Georgia currently.
He's suspected in at least fiveother murders, but there's many
others.
As I mentioned, the FBIstrongly believes that he didn't
start murdering people in his60s and the earliest one
connected to him is basicallythe mid-90s, which would still
(38:54):
be kind of late.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, 30s yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
So I think there's a lot more investigation that
could actually happen here andcover some really interesting
links, but one that I just wantto quickly mention before I'll
close is that murder of JudySmith, which is a really famous
case of a Massachusetts teacherwho went to Philadelphia with
her husband when he was on abusiness trip and disappeared
(39:18):
and she was found in hikingclothes, murdered in I believe
it was a Georgiaorgia state park, um, and there's all these
funky things connected to it.
Like nobody knew she wanted togo hiking, how did she get from
philadelphia?
to georgia right what was shedoing with hiking clothes when
she was going to philadelphia tohang out for a couple of days?
(39:39):
Well, her husband was at aconference that is very weird so
they think it's directlyconnected to Gary Hilton
Interesting, but they're notquite sure, sky.
Speaker 5 (39:50):
Like he has a hiking fetish.
He's just like I'm only goingto kill people in their hiking
clothes Like a game.
I mean I start to think likealmost messed up, Like oh, I've
captured you, I'm going toabduct you and then force you to
run for your life.
Maybe you know.
Abduct you and then force youto run for your life in the,
Maybe that's part of it, Does he?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
have a family at all.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Not anything that I saw, but what I read.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
So the dog was his family pretty much Interesting,
john.
That was fascinating.
That was fascinating.
I have questions.
I need answers.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
And I've never heard of any of that.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, that was great.
Thank you for doing that.
That was awesome.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
That was great.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Anyone else have any questions?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Nope, I got nothing.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Johnny, thank you so much.
Please do another one.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
You know whenever you're ready.
Maybe not immediately.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
She's waiting, staring at you.
Are you going to?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
start now.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Thank you everyone and Merry Christmas to those who
celebrate.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yes, thank you for having me, thank you everyone,
and Merry Christmas to those whocelebrate.
Yes, merry Christmas.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Happy Hanukkah and Happy Kwanzaa.
Yeah, Kwanzaa's on the 26th.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And Happy New.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Year.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And Happy New Year.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
We'll have one come out on New Year's Day.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yes, we will, yes, and we've got a special episode
for that, so stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
All right, bye Wanderers.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Bye, adios.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, Hannah, and co-hosted by me.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe wiki wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of youstay curious, keep exploring and
(41:31):
always remember to keep onwandering.
Thank you.
So there's this guy on TikTok that has this theory.
So you know how the RomanEmpire fell.
Right, he's saying that theRoman Empire never fell.
Rome fell, but the Roman Empireand all the money and prestige
that went with it is in thechurch.
So the Vatican, the Catholics.
I think that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
The Roman Catholics.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
I think it's a really interesting theory.
I think it's a reallyinteresting theory.
I think it's a good theory, butI don't necessarily.
I mean they've not made theconnection between money from
the Roman Empire and the currentRoman Catholic Church.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Doesn't mean it's not there.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Their monuments, their roads, their buildings are
still there, but I think it'sseparate from the Catholic
Church.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, I think it's a cool theory, but I don't think
that there's any real fact thatcan back that up.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
But there is a lot of wealth in the Catholic Church
still and there are a lot ofpaintings and very valuable
artifacts that we don't see,probably will never see.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Anybody else, go ahead, tell me I'm wrong.
Valuable artifacts that are inthe we don't see.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Probably we'll never see anybody else go ahead tell
me I'm wrong, okay hi, I'mhannah and I'm courtney.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal
encounters and all things spooky.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
This is Wicked Wanderers.
Hello Courtney, Hi Anna.
This episode is a littledifferent because we're not at
my house, we're at my mom'shouse and we have special guests
.
So, hi Rob, Hello.
And we have my mother here,hello and my brother, jonathan,
which some people actually askedfor.
So here he is.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Hello, I do want to say Merry Christmas to everyone,
because this episode is comingout on the 25th, so if you are
opening up presents witheveryone while listening to
Wicked Wandering, thank you verymuch, merry Christmas.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
We should probably toss in.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
sometimes we use explicatives, so if you're
around family with children.
Yeah, yeah, caution on that.
Turn it down.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
So today's episode is actually brought by the one,
the only, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
So I wanted to talk today about Gary Hilton, who's
known as the National ForestKiller.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's a very big name.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Any relation to the Hilton Hotels, Hiltons.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
No, I don't think this is like Paris Hilton's
uncle, but anyway, Look, do youimagine?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well, depending on what year it was, you know, I
didn't know if it was adescendant of any sort, you know
.
So it was a legitimate question.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
No, this guy is like born 1946.
So he's like in his late 70snow.
Is that right?
No, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:13):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Thank you, anyway.
So this I'm going to talk abouta series of four murders that
he was accused of and wasactually tried for that take
place between 2007 and 2008.
Honestly, like our story startsin October 2007 and kind of
wraps up in February, though thetrials were anywhere from
between 2009 and 2012 formurders that took place over
(03:36):
those couple of months with.
Is that because most of hismurders actually occurred within
national force, the FBI wasinvolved because their national
force is federal level, which issuper interesting.
So they had all these FBIprofilers.
Take a look at Gary Hilton andeverything he had admitted to
(04:00):
and he went on trial for, andthey all agree that, even though
he was in the 60s by the timehe started these murders that he
was actually convicted of uh,these were definitely not his
first.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Uh, these were among his last I was gonna say,
because that's kind of like aweird time to start killing
people.
Yeah, exactly, just decide heythis is where I'm gonna yeah,
and then he was busy.
Now, what am I gonna do?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
so if you take a look at and look up Gary Hilton,
there's a whole list of othermurders that anywhere from like
the mid 90s straight through the2000s, before he ends up in
jail that are like his MO, butneither not enough evidence or
didn't quite fit everything elsehe had done or he hadn't
(04:42):
admitted to.
So a lot of interesting things,um, but we're talking about the
uh, the key three scenarios,the four murders that led to his
capture and sentencing in 2007,2008, uh, but again, as I
mentioned, there's a lot ofother ones that are connected to
him.
Uh, just nothing's proven, um,and then I'll be talking about
an attempted kidnapping by himthat I have a direct connection
(05:06):
to, um, and so I wanted to startwith like I'm sorry that just
is a great like all right onetruth and a lot no, two truths
and I, yeah for a party he justlike drops all that on us
and he's like wait, I'm gonnaget there.
I'm gonna get there.
Now stick with me for like anintro to a movie plot twist so
do you want to take a look athis mo before we go into the uh,
(05:28):
four stories that they have,because I think it's important
to kind of like keep thosethings in mind as we're talking
about, um, these murders and oneattempted abduction.
Um, because it is a little bitdifferent than other serial
killers, right, um, we're usedto talking about serial killers
that they liked a certainphysical appearance or a certain
age, or um well, no, never mind.
(05:49):
I was gonna say certain hunt andground, but obviously he has a
certain ground, never minddefinitely he aligned with a
certain area but his murderstake place everywhere between
north carolina, georgia andflorida.
So I actually went and took a umas I was reading more about him
, actually went on Google Mapsand mapped all of these
locations so where these fourpeople were abducted, where they
(06:16):
were, their bodies were foundand then any other key moments
in their murder trials whereGary Hilton kind of popped up
and it's all in this kind ofvery straight corridor from
North Carolina Tennessee borderstraight down through Georgia to
the Tallahassee area in Florida, which is really interesting.
(06:39):
It also makes sense becauseAtlanta is roughly in the center
of that range and that's wherehe lived.
It also makes sense becauseAtlanta is roughly in the center
of that range and that's wherehe lived.
So a couple of key things abouthis MO One Gary Hilton was
always looking for someone whowas vulnerable.
So in general he wasn'tspecific on age young versus old
.
He wasn't looking for aparticular look or a particular
(07:02):
ethnicity or a particular job,etc.
Speaker 5 (07:05):
He was looking just for.
That's what I was gonna ask no,not that either.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Just started with vulnerability, so this could
mean very young somebody wholooked like they were a teenager
or in college, uh, or someonewho was very old.
His first two victims thatwe're going to be talking about,
the bryant, were in their 80s,um.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Who does that?
Old people.
I mean kids too, but old peopleI know.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
He was looking for them to be alone.
Now the Bryants were the firstmurder I'm going to mention
Again.
They were in their 80s but alsothey were together.
But they also had a lot ofvulnerability because they were
senior citizens in a nationalpark.
He was also looking forvulnerability.
He liked that most of hisvictims were from out of state.
So there's a few caveats tothat in some of his accused
(07:51):
murders, but that's kind of likekey number two he always liked
a victim who was from out ofstate because they weren't
nearly as familiar with the area, particularly the national
parks, as he was.
And on top of that, when theywere murdered people wouldn't
likely be missing them asquickly.
So there's one particularvictim, cheryl Dunlap, who was
(08:13):
immediately missed because shedidn't show up to teach Sunday
school.
So immediately they wentlooking for her.
But most of these people werelike on vacation, they were
going to national parks, theywere hiking and some people
didn't report them for up to twoweeks later, right, because
you're waiting for your familyto come back from a trip.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You're not thinking, oh, they're just busy, they're
having a good time, that's why Ican't get in touch with them it
kind of reminds me of the casethat you did where uh, I forgot
his name, oh it was.
You read two books on him.
Yeah, oh gosh, oh gosh.
Tony Tony Costa, and thosegirls that they were just in the
same housing with him, yeah,yeah, it was total fluke.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
They ended up basically staying at this house,
where he was not a seasonalboarder, but he was there for a
longer term, and so they endedup just bumping into him.
When they were away on aweekend trip, and it took them
until know monday morning, oneof them didn't show up for work
in order to be reported missing,because she was a school
teacher and she would have nevermissed.
But what was the one that theysaid?
She went to mexico.
Oh yeah, well, she was.
Um, I think they described heras a hippie.
(09:12):
So it was like, oh, you know,she's fleeting, she's here,
she's there, she's, you know,sexually free, she's using drugs
.
They were just kind of like ohyeah, she's in mexico, but it
was like four weeks beforesomebody actually was like you
know.
Maybe we should check on that.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah, so the last piece I'll mention in his MO is
near or in a national forest, soI'd already kind of mentioned
that.
But this was the really bigidentifier.
That's why he's called theNational Park of the National
Forest Killer A really big dealfor him and the reason we call
him what we do.
He either found his victims inthese forests, found them near
(09:48):
them and then took them into theforest for their murder and
then most often disposed of themin national forests Did not
necessarily need to be the samenational forest in which they
were murdered, which is alsoreally interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
It is yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
I mean how?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
many bodies are probably in the woods that we
just don't know about.
Speaker 5 (10:05):
Well, at least you know where to check National
Forest.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
So let's start with our first three murder cases,
four individual murders John andIrene Bryant, which I already
mentioned.
This is October 2007.
This is kind of what kicks offthe snowball.
That kind of gets them capturedin the end.
They're a retired couple intheir 80s.
They left their home inHorseshoe, north Carolina.
So this is right on the borderbasically with close to
(10:32):
Tennessee, but also the otherborders of South Carolina and
Georgia.
They all kind of converge inthe same area.
So they leave their home inHorseshoe, north Carolina, to
hike in the Pisag I'm going tomispronounce that National
Forest.
This is about a 35-minute trip.
So after two weeks familymembers call in law enforcement
(10:53):
and they're like, hey, we can'tget a hold of them.
This is really strange.
And after several searches theyfind Irene's remains in early
November.
So disappear in October.
Do multiple searches earlyNovember, so disappear in
October.
Do multiple searches EarlyNovember.
We're a month later.
They find Irene's remains.
Just the one, not her husband,but not her husband John.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Interesting okay.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Because it was a national force, the FBI was
called in.
That's why we get a really goodprofile of Gary Hilton in the
end, because there's so many FBIprofilers on the case in the
end.
And they also launched a tenthousand dollar reward for
information right at this point.
Uh, they still thought john wasalive.
They thought he was just beingkilled captive by whoever
(11:35):
murdered irene during this time.
They also discovered that johnmade a 911 call the day of their
disappearance back in october,but the signal dropped because
they were in the National.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Forest.
So they never suspected John,like, even though he didn't kill
his wife.
I just you know.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
That's so true, though, if you think about it
too Like oh, he tried to placethe 911 call Conveniently, it
dropped, he's nowhere to be seen.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
They immediately were like he's being held captive.
It's an interesting joke.
For me, I would be like oh no,it was the husband.
We always assume it was thehusband right F those husbands.
Speaker 5 (12:04):
It's always them.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
And in addition to that, right around the same time
they discovered a Caucasian manhad used the Bryant's ATM card
to withdraw $300 from a bank inTennessee.
This is right over the borders,not that far away.
So now we have a partial,obscured visual of the man we'll
later know as gary hilton, umso kind of taking a pause there,
(12:30):
moving kind of chronologicallyinto the next murder, cheryl
dunlap.
So, uh, we're now in december,um months later, and all of this
is going on around thetennessee slash north carolina
border.
Cheryl Dunlap this is nowDecember 2007,.
Middle-aged woman fromCrawfordville, florida, so think
we're now far south hour south,straight through Georgia, into
(12:52):
the border with Georgia andFlorida.
She didn't show up to teachSunday school in early December
and her absence was immediatelyreported to authorities on that
following Monday.
Later that week a search partyof over 180 people was organized
, with absolutely no results.
At this point they were stillhoping she was alive by
(13:14):
mid-December, so hardly like.
Two weeks later, a hunterstumbled on decomposing remains
of a white female in theAppalachicola State Forest,
which were later identified asDunlaps.
Aww and I want to talk about theAppalachicola State Forest in
just a second.
At the exact same time whenthey finally find her remains,
they see that her ATM card hadbeen used in Tallahassee five
(13:37):
times, withdrawing a total of$700.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
Wow, which is so interesting.
Yeah, it's like he's notkilling for money, because
you're not getting very much.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I mean, I hate to say that there'd be a lot of value
on taking someone's life.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
There isn't for me, but I would imagine it wouldn't
be a couple hundred dollars.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
How is he killing them again?
I don't think he's got thereyet.
Okay, all right, sorry if I'mskipping ahead.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
I could talk a little bit about that moment, like,
hey, this is what's available tome.
Yes, and there are some thingsabout Gary Hilton Like he's
known as this kind of reallystrange guy who always hikes
with his dog through nationalparks, particularly up in
(14:19):
Georgia, where he was livingoutside of Atlanta.
He's known as a hothead and alittle bit crazy.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
Okay.
He's known as a hothead and alittle bit crazy, so that would
fit the opportunistic like ohyou're here and you're
inconveniencing me in some way,and here's a lamp.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
And you're vulnerable and you're in a national park,
or I brought you to a nationalpark.
Some of it, some of the oneshe's accused of, sound like they
were totally premeditated.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Because he's moving people and bodies all over the
place and then some of them justlook like he was in the
national forest and he justdecided you're alone, you're my
person, bludgeon you to deaththe ones, hannah and I love the
most the classic.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
What is going on inside their head?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
seriously, is it?
Speaker 5 (14:58):
one motive, is it multiple?
And then it's like, how doessomebody get to that point?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
because another point to it can't be money motivated,
like if it is opportunistic andthey're vulnerable, just mug
them and take their debit card.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
They don't know how to kill them knowing.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Okay, they must have money right because right now he
has two murders, one suspectedmurder under his bell, at the
very least, uh, and he's onlystolen about a thousand dollars
right.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
I mean he is going after what seems like sometimes
like tourists too, but does heknow that they're tourists?
You know what I mean?
Because someone who's goingplaces and they're traveling
you're going to expect that theyhave cash on them, or that they
have at least enough money andfunds on their debit card,
because they're travelingthey're going to need money.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So like Cheryl Dunlap is like one person who doesn't
perfectly fit the MO, but he didadmit to her murder.
I mean she was a local person.
So Apalachicola State Forest isright around the area of
Tallahassee where she lived.
So this was not an in-stateout-of-state.
This was just vulnerabilityFascinating.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Very.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
But before I get to talk a little bit about the
Apalachicola State Forestbecause it'll come up in the
attempted abduction later thatI'll talk about is that in
general.
By this point, with CherylDunlap, there were concerns by
the community that a killer wasoperating on the Georgia-Florida
border, but authorities thoughtthat she was just an isolated
incident.
(16:17):
But they continue to look forsuspicious green truck, which
will pop up in many of themurders he is convicted of as
well as accused of.
So let's take a moment to talkabout the Apalachicola State
Forest, right?
This is a huge area of landaround Tallahassee, florida,
that basically goes south fromTallahassee all the way to the
(16:39):
Florida Panhandle Coast.
That's, on the Gulf of Mexico,right?
So think of it as thisincredibly dense kind of creepy,
swamp-like forest, and it will,of course, pop up again, not
just with Cheryl Dunlap, butalso with the attempted
kidnapping that I'll talk aboutat the end.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So currently we have three victims, but only two have
been found.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
We found we have the John and Irene Bryant.
We're assuming John is stillabducted.
Irene's body has been found andthen we have finally found
Cheryl Dunlap's body as well,and we're only in mid-December
2007.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
And how long sorry, how long has it been since John
and Irene?
They're just assuming he's beencaptive for like four weeks.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
That was roughly early October, so now we're in
mid-December.
Speaker 5 (17:24):
So we're like pushing eight weeks.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, we're in the december, okay, so we're like
pushing eight weeks.
Yeah, we're like going past 10weeks, yeah, okay, which already
like, even if not knowing abackstory of this guy.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
It'd be so weird for him to hold an 80 year old man
captive right, I still think my,my own, just not where I'm like
how do we not know that?
How are we not questioning?
The husband did this and he'sjust off living his best life.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean they read with200.
The only thing I can add tothat is that they did find the
Bryant vehicle parked in theparking lot for the National
Forest, where they were hiking.
I can see how they did that,and that was found a few days
after they disappeared, well,after they had been called in
two weeks later.
So I feel like I'm hip hoppingand skipping, but I hope this
(18:04):
comes out clear.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Nope, that's what happens with these podcasts.
Speaker 5 (18:07):
We do that every single time, cause in order to
tell it you're like.
Well, you have to understandthis first.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Uh, next victim was Meredith Emerson, and this is
actually New Year's day, 2008.
So this is only a few weeksafter.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
You go in, he's like 2008's my year.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Uh, 24 year old.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Uh, she uh, 24 year old.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Uh, she goes for a hike on uh, a blood mountain,
which is actually, oh god, ingeorgia's vogel state park.
Uh, with her black lab, ella, uhthis park is in northern
georgia, not too far from thenorth carolina border, um, and
uh, the national forest wherethe bryants went missing, um, so
bring us back to kind of thinkabout this kind of corridor.
So we're thinking about theclose borders of North Carolina,
(18:54):
georgia, south Carolina andTennessee, and then the border
of Georgia and Florida, where wehave most of these events
taking place at the moment.
This part really hits me.
While she's on this hike withher black lab, several witnesses
later came forward and saidthat they had passed her on the
(19:17):
trail and said that mysteriousolder man with a dog was
following her.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
And they multiple different.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
They just didn't do anything, and nobody did
anything about it.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
keep following they were just like oh, that man's
really creepy and he has a dogand he keeps following her I'm
not gonna call him out or callthe police and there's multiple
different hikers that you passedon that day so, rob, I really
want to bring you in on this.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Like you hike a lot right on the appalachian trail
yeah can you tell the differencebetween people?
Oh, we're on the same.
We're going north or south orwhatever.
And then someone being creepyand following very close.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
No, not really.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I suppose in hindsight and I'm thinking about
it we've all been someplace andwe're like, oh, that didn't
seem weird at the time.
But then somebody says, oh,there was a person doing this at
the Holyoke Mall.
And we're like, oh, I was thereand there was a man doing this,
and there was a man doing this.
So I wonder if it's just peoplesaying like, oh, after the fact
.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Well, 2020 vision.
They were there, he was kind ofcreepy, now that you mention it
, but I didn't think so at thetime.
I just hate that like 2020vision going back and going like
oh he looks kind of creepy, butshe'll be fine.
I think I would.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
I would say something I think especially now.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
I would still probably like check in with her,
even as a stranger being likeyou're, a single woman alone on
the trail?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Do you know this single man?
So, but so that's January 1st2008.
By January 3rd, they find hercar and also identify the man
who followed her as Gary Hilton.
So, as the investigationcontinues, they're getting more
information about Gary Hilton.
He's known as a drifter withreally strange behaviors and an
(20:53):
extraordinarily bad temper, whooften walked his dog,
particularly in Vogel State Parkin Georgia, and he is now, by
this point in January 2008, anofficial person of interest, but
only in Meredith Emerson'sdisappearance by January 4th.
Again, this investigation isgoing a lot faster than the last
year that we talked aboutMeredith's dog.
(21:15):
Ella was found wandering in alocal grocery store parking lot
and was returned to Meredith'sfamily.
Speaker 5 (21:20):
Oh, I'm so glad he didn't hurt the dog.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I wanted to just mention that.
Yes, by January 5th they findmultiple items belonging to
Meredith Emerson in a dumpsterof a quick trip convenience
store in Cumming, Georgia.
This is a little bit of adistance from where she
disappeared.
Were directly tied to her, likeher university.
(21:56):
ID her driver's license,bloodied clothing, bloodied
wallet and, most important, abloodied car seat belt, which
will come out later, becausethese items would directly lead
to Hilton's arrest, though thesearch for Meredith Emerson's
body in the Chattahoochee StateForest would still continue, and
that's kind of the area aroundthe Vogel State Park Upon
examining Hilton's green vanbecause, remember, we're
starting to hear green vanpopping up in multiple different
(22:16):
scenarios, particularlyDunlap's murder authorities
found that the rear seatbelt wasmissing and perfectly matched
the bloodied seatbelt that theyfound in the dumpster in georgia
uh, that had um meredithemerson's uh blood on it I
wonder why he cut it out, nina,something quick as well I can
(22:37):
think of.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
It was there.
And if you've got a pocketknife, wait to to what?
To, I'm assuming, stranglesomebody or restrain them in
some capacity?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I think that's a really would seep out, for I
didn't even think about that.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
It's opportunistic.
It's right there and you needsomething quickly.
If you're carrying a pocketknife because you're hiking I
mean most people who hike, right, they carry a pocket knife you
just quickly.
Okay, this person's doingsomething.
I didn't plan on it.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I just cut this out like a piece of rope just wonder
if it was strangulation wherethe blood came from, because
with strangulation you don't getblood because he was mostly
known for like blunt force butrestraining or I don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Maybe he hit her and then took her body someplace and
she bled out onto the seatbeltso he had to cut it out, so it
wasn't in his van and the reasonthey were able to able to uh
connect gary hilton with thegreen van um and then with her
murder after all of these otherthings, is that multiple
witnesses came forward afterthey said we're looking for this
like very particular green van.
(23:33):
They were like, oh, there'sthis like really creepy guy at
the local gas station cleaningout his creepy green van, and
that's where they found him andarrested him.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
And nobody would have thought that was creepy until
someone was asking about it?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I would have thought it was creepy.
But again, this is a total.
Another moment where he'staking a victim from one state
forest and actually moving theirbody to another one or another
part of the state forest Weird,so he's getting a little erratic
, I think.
By this point, once he'sarrested, arrested and again
(24:06):
he's only being accused of onemurder meredith emerson's uh.
In exchange for the guaranteedrehoming of his dog and dropping
the death penalty, um, heagreed to share where meredith
emerson's body was.
This led authorities to findher decapitated body, uh, at the
dawson Management Area.
Speaker 5 (24:26):
There's your seatbelt situation.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Quite a distance from Vogel State Park, where she
originally disappeared.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
So they were going to give him the death penalty for
one murder?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Well it was on the table.
I feel like that's very unheardof.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
They probably did it in order to make him do a deal.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
They probably said this is what we're putting out
there in order to barter.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Can I ask you behavioral analyst experts?
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Okay, how does someone who was obviously so
psychopathic if that's the rightword be so just empathic and so
caring about his dog?
That seems to me almost.
I don't know, it just seems,yeah, it's just seems.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah, the way we relate to animals and objects, I
would say, is very differentthan the way we like interact
with other people.
I think, working with theautistic population, I've
learned that they can, you know,they might have a favorite
object, right, hannah, wherethey're like I love this lamp
and I'm never gonna let anybodytouch it.
And it's different than the waythey feel about people.
It's, it's a different type ofattachment, I would say, and
it's actually not unusual.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
No, so when you, when you talk about like psychopaths
, like, oh yeah, they startkilling animals when they were
younger, yes, there is that onepiece to them that could make
them a psychopath, but there area lot of cases where they
actually have an animal thatthey love and they they're upset
when they get hurt, which isinteresting.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I just find that remarkable.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Thank you.
It is an interesting thing.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
It's a non-judgmental being Right, because you know
dogs don't always behave and nomatter how much you love them,
you can lose your temper ifthey're not behaving or doing
what they're supposed to do.
And it seemed like how could hehave a dog that he loves so
much that he's giving away hisown freedom to make sure his dog
(26:11):
is taken care of?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
And he also didn't hurt Meredith's dog.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
And that's true, I know I was happy about that.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I wanted to make that mention specifically.
Like A, I wanted as part of thestory to be like at least the
dog got back to Meredith'sfamily, you know, got back to,
um, meredith's family.
but also I'm wondering if hepurposely moved the dog or, uh,
uh, secured meredith's dog, ella, in a way that like he was
going to murder meredith one wayor another, but like he felt
(26:41):
empathetic for the dog and maybegot the dog to a very public
place, because the dog was likewould have had to walk quite a
distance from the state parkwhere Meredith went missing to
get to a Kroger parking lotwhere he was obviously seen, or
she.
Okay, so I wanted to make thatconnection too, which I thought
was really interesting.
Okay, cool, so by this timewe're basically in January 2008.
(27:05):
By next month, february 2008, ahunter found a skull in the
Nantahala State Forest with apelvis and spine about 20 yards
away.
These would later be found tobe John Bryant's body or part of
his body anyway, he wasdismembered then.
So there's this weird as I wasdoing even more reading and I
(27:26):
didn't include it specificallyhere because it was getting a
little complicated, but towardsthis, like 2007, 2008,.
It's almost like Gary Hiltonwas experimenting with some
things yeah.
Like you know, one of hisvictims that we already talked
about, her head had been removed.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, his MO is very erratic.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
But like he has some core pieces but like some of the
bodies were found completelyintact.
But as we get later and maybehe's getting more frenetic or
there are more things, he's like, you know, dropping some things
, so to speak, in trying tocover up after himself.
He's like experimenting with,like okay, if I were to
decapitate their head and movethe head somewhere else, maybe
(28:05):
it's more difficult to identifythe body and put it back to me.
Speaker 5 (28:08):
The only other thing I can think of is maybe he was
trying to make it look like allof them weren't connected.
So, like a lot of people whoare looking at behavior, they're
going to say, okay, well, itwas very different, you know
locations or, like you said, notfitting the same type of person
.
I feel like maybe he could havebeen saying okay, I know
there's somebody else out heredoing this kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
What if I yeah, there's dumping grounds.
Because didn't Bundy havedumping grounds?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
He always had an area .
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yes, he did.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yes, he did.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Bundy.
But just to make another note,where John Bryant's body was
found was quite a distance fromwhere they had originally
disappeared and where they foundhis wife Irene's body.
Speaker 5 (28:48):
So by this point he's not just murdering victims
taking their atm cards andrunning and just leaving their
bodies spending some qualitytime.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
He's moving them around they're moving across um
some state lines.
Speaker 5 (28:54):
In some cases he's moving body parts it's hard not
to flick messages in there likelike is he trying to lead like
one in every place?
Does he ever duplicate like twomurders in one location?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
um, I think it's difficult to establish that
pattern with only these four.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
Yeah, because they could just be in different
places, because they were, butlike the Bryans they were all
both in one spot.
So he put one there and then hemoved to one, then he moved.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
John and some experts thought that maybe John was
abducted and Irene was murderedand left nearby and he held on
to John for a couple of days totry and get more bank details
from him before finallymurdering him.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
But I'm going back to like the bones, like is it
possible?
Like okay, so he could have, hemutilated the body, obviously,
but it's possible that the boneswere just dragged away by
animals.
That's also true.
It's true, that's true.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Because we have to remember that they went missing
in October 2007,.
And his body wasn't found untilFebruary 2008.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
Yeah, he was out there a while.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So he could have dragged John along for the ride
for a couple of weeks and thendecided this is where I'm going
to drop him.
Speaker 4 (30:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
And then we still, by that point, even if it's early
November, we have November,december.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
January Right, we basically have three to four
months and they don't reallyhave much of a winter down that
far, right.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
That's correct.
There's no heavy snow.
It's not like here, where it'spreserved.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yeah, because it's cold.
Is he using the state forestIsolation?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Probably.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
That's what I would think I mean it's definitely
connected to.
He's known to hike trails in avariety of different state
forests with his dog, so he hasgreat familiarity with the
(30:43):
places where he's findingvictims or murdering them or
dropping them off afterwards.
I also think the isolationmakes a big deal.
I think there's a variety offactors of why he picked
national forests the way he did.
But again, he's moving acrossfour states but all national
forests.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
He's obviously living in that green van, so chances
are he might be camping in thoseforests.
So that's home territory forhim.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
And it would actually be.
You know so.
So by this point we're in early2008.
Um, all four of the bodies thathave we talked about have been
found.
Um, and the trial for thedunlap's uh, dunlap's murder
wouldn't take place until 2009,and the bryant murders, which
were, in this case, the firstmurders on our set, wouldn't
have placed until 2012.
Um, but with the dunlap murder,um, somebody came forward with
(31:28):
they had found a whole bunch ofhis um camping equipment,
because by this time he's injail in early 2008.
In 2009, they found all of hiscamping equipment abandoned, and
so they gave it toinvestigators and they used it
as a lot of evidence for theDunlap murder trial.
So those are the murders I wantto talk about Three different
(31:50):
kind of situations, fourdifferent murders and then one
attempted abduction.
And so this is where it kind ofgets connected to me, because
it was actually myex-brother-in-law.
So almost every year when I wasmarried, my ex and I would join
his family on an island calledSt George, and this is off the
panhandle of Florida beautifulBay of Mexico.
(32:11):
It's basically an oversizedsandbar, but it's actually
really stunning.
To get there.
We'd have to take a reallyexhausting trip from New York
City, basically getting up at 3am to catch an early flight from
LaGuardia or JFK and thengetting to Atlanta, waiting
several hours so we could takeout basically a hopper flight to
Tallahassee, and if you'venever been to the Tallahassee
(32:33):
airport, it technically has twoterminals, but it's just one
long hallway.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Worse than Bradley.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
It is one long hallway with, I think, maybe
four gates, two of which theyuse Wow.
So it's tiny, tiny, tiny tiny.
And then once we got toTallahassee, we'd either rent a
car or we would get picked up inTallahassee and then there was
a several-hour drive to get downto the coast and most of this
was through the ApalachicolaState Forest.
While we were on our way,probably about 45 minutes from
(33:07):
the Tallahassee Airport goingsouth towards the coast, we
would stop at a Walmartsupercenter to load up on all
the things we would need to havein the house at the beach for a
week, because this was reallythe only major grocery center
between Tallahassee and StGeorge and prevented us from
having to go to that veryexpensive local Piggly Wiggly
that was on the island.
And of course, this Walmart isalmost completely surrounded by
(33:32):
the Appalachical Estate Forest.
And each time a member of myex's family would mention oh,
remember that time Stuart wasalmost abducted and everybody
would laugh and they would tellthe story over again.
And it was honestly the lastyear I ever went down with them.
I started asking a lot ofquestions, you know, and they
would repeat the story and kindof go over and sometimes they
(33:52):
would have a few new details orand again it was kind of very
jovial and funny because nothingactually happened.
But basically, while I wasasking them questions it was
like oh, tell me more.
You know we're in theApalachicola State Forest, it's
Tallahassee, it was an abduction.
And I'm Googling things aroundand I finally go oh, and they
had mentioned it's an older,kind of strange looking older
(34:13):
white man who had kind ofapproached my brother-in-law and
I found a photo of Gary Hiltonand I said is this the guy?
And they turned around and goyeah, that's him.
So that's Gary Hilton.
So yeah, here's the story.
Story goes, and I think thishappened in about 2007.
So this would be a little bit.
This would basically be thesummer before the murders we
just talked about took place.
Speaker 4 (34:35):
How old was Stuart at the time?
John?
Speaker 3 (34:36):
He would have been a late teenager, but Stuart's also
very young youth, very young,youthful looking.
So he would have looked evenyounger, probably would have
been 17, 18 by the time.
So on their annual family tripdown from Atlanta, driving
through Tallahassee to get to StGeorge Island, they stopped, as
they did every year at the sameWalmart in the Appalachian
State Forest to stock up.
(34:56):
My brother-in-law, stuart, wasbasically a late teenager at the
time, very youthful looking,and after he was shopping in
Walmart with his parents, hewalked out to the car solo, and
the car, of course, because theycame from Atlanta, had
out-of-state plates with Georgiaon the back Alone.
He was then approached becausehe hadn't gotten to the car yet
(35:17):
because he didn't have a key,was approached by a disheveled
older man who asked him for help.
He said that he needed to rideto local mechanics as his car
had broken down so that he couldget a tow.
This wasn't entirely unusual.
I mean, it's the South.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Everyone's very friendly.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Always trying to help your neighbor Not everybody had
cell phones there, especiallyin this area of Florida.
So nothing unusual but for youknow, asking somebody for help.
But something felt very off andas the man got closer to Stuart
, my father-in-law exitedWalmart at that time, saw
something was going on, that hisson was kind of being backed up
(35:55):
to the car by this older kindof disheveled looking man, and
ended up yelling at him and theman ran away, got into his car
and left, so obviously his carhad not broken down.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Right right.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Basically, the man had realized that Stuart was not
alone and took off in his owncar.
The strangest part of thisstory and I think this ties back
to Gary Hilton's like extreme.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Mania.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Well mania, but also like anger and flared temper.
As he left, he yelled back youdamn Yankees.
And then that was it.
During the retelling of thestory, though, the family would
always tease my mother-in-law,who, they said at the time, was
much less upset that her son hadalmost been abducted and much
(36:39):
more upset that she'd beencalled a Yankee, which I always
thought was funny.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
That's very offensive more upset that she'd been
called a Yankee, which I alwaysthought was funny.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
That's very offensive .
But to bring this back to GaryHilton's MO vulnerability, he
was obviously from out of state.
He looked like a teenager, buteven younger.
He was alone.
Definitely from out of state,as I mentioned, georgia State
plates and basically in themiddle of the Appalachicola
(37:06):
State Forest where we know laterhe would murder.
So why don't I go back?
Do you want me to go back asfar as the Yankee explanation?
Well, I want to know why the guy, gary, called you guys a Yankee
, because wasn't your in-lawsfrom Georgia, which is not
Yankee territory, no, but theunderstanding that I have is
that because so many people fromnorthern states have moved to
(37:28):
Georgia, it looked like theywere just a family, probably
from the north, who had moved toGeorgia and they were taking up
room in places like Floridagoing on vacation, that's
interesting and honestly, downsouth there's fewer things that
are more insulting than beingcalled a Yankee.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
That's interesting.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
We're an insult who knew but wanted to go back, kind
of like let's stack up this,you know, potential abduction by
Gary Hilton back to his core MO.
As I mentioned, vulnerability,so we have a teenager who looks
even younger than a teenager, um, completely alone, um.
And number two, alsovulnerability, out of state,
(38:13):
obviously, because they hadgeorgia state plates and right
in the middle of theapalachicola state forest, where
we've already learned um that,uh, cheryl dunlap, uh would be
dragged, murdered and then foundlater.
So Hilton is still in jail,with multiple life sentences as
(38:34):
well as a death penalty fromFlorida.
He's in Georgia currently.
He's suspected in at least fiveother murders, but there's many
others.
As I mentioned, the FBIstrongly believes that he didn't
start murdering people in his60s and the earliest one
connected to him is basicallythe mid-90s, which would still
(38:54):
be kind of late.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, 30s yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
So I think there's a lot more investigation that
could actually happen here andcover some really interesting
links, but one that I just wantto quickly mention before I'll
close is that murder of JudySmith, which is a really famous
case of a Massachusetts teacherwho went to Philadelphia with
her husband when he was on abusiness trip and disappeared
(39:18):
and she was found in hikingclothes, murdered in I believe
it was a Georgiaorgia state park, um, and there's all these
funky things connected to it.
Like nobody knew she wanted togo hiking, how did she get from
philadelphia?
to georgia right what was shedoing with hiking clothes when
she was going to philadelphia tohang out for a couple of days?
(39:39):
Well, her husband was at aconference that is very weird so
they think it's directlyconnected to Gary Hilton
Interesting, but they're notquite sure, sky.
Speaker 5 (39:50):
Like he has a hiking fetish.
He's just like I'm only goingto kill people in their hiking
clothes Like a game.
I mean I start to think likealmost messed up, Like oh, I've
captured you, I'm going toabduct you and then force you to
run for your life.
Maybe you know.
Abduct you and then force youto run for your life in the,
Maybe that's part of it, Does he?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
have a family at all.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Not anything that I saw, but what I read.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
So the dog was his family pretty much Interesting,
john.
That was fascinating.
That was fascinating.
I have questions.
I need answers.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
And I've never heard of any of that.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, that was great.
Thank you for doing that.
That was awesome.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
That was great.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Anyone else have any questions?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Nope, I got nothing.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Johnny, thank you so much.
Please do another one.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
You know whenever you're ready.
Maybe not immediately.
Speaker 5 (40:36):
She's waiting, staring at you.
Are you going to?
Speaker 2 (40:39):
start now.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Thank you everyone and Merry Christmas to those who
celebrate.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yes, thank you for having me, thank you everyone,
and Merry Christmas to those whocelebrate.
Yes, merry Christmas.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Happy Hanukkah and Happy Kwanzaa.
Yeah, Kwanzaa's on the 26th.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And Happy New.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Year.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And Happy New Year.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
We'll have one come out on New Year's Day.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yes, we will, yes, and we've got a special episode
for that, so stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
All right, bye Wanderers.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Bye, adios.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, Hannah, and co-hosted by me.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe wiki wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of youstay curious, keep exploring and
(41:31):
always remember to keep onwandering.
Thank you.
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