February 5, 2025 • 46 mins
Journey into the chilling mindset of Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, as we unravel the complexities of his early life, relationships, and the societal perceptions that allowed him to evade justice for so long. Our discussion brings to light the crucial interplay of nature versus nurture, the stigmatization of victims, and the psychological factors that culminated in Ridgeway's horrific crimes.
• Unpacking the psychological impact of Ridgeway's childhood
• The complex influences of maternal relationships on male behavior
• Discussing societal attitudes toward sex workers as victims
• Exploring the cunning methods employed by Ridgeway to evade law enforcement
• Reflecting on the advancements in forensic science that led to his capture
• Addressing the broader implications for society regarding violence and justice
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cousin Marc (00:01):
and we're live oh boy, do I have shenanigans?
Courtney (00:06):
yay, that's perfect.
We love shenanigans.
I almost wish we had beenrecording trying to figure out
hannah's mic, so we'll play andprobably break his soundboard
okay.
Hannah (00:26):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:33):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (00:55):
This is Wicked Wanderings, hi Courtney, hi
Hannah, and we have a specialguest.
Courtney (01:03):
Drumroll please.
Hannah (01:04):
Cousin Mark In the flesh sort of In the virtual flesh.
Courtney (01:10):
That sounds weird.
In the voice sounds better.
You're right, cousin Mark, inthe voice, in the voice.
Hannah (01:19):
Also, I feel like we need to put out there that we
are sorry.
We have not had an episode intwo or three weeks.
Courtney (01:21):
It's been a few weeks, guys.
We've had some.
I'll say I had some familymatters come up in the beginning
of January.
I'll take ownership of that onepersonally.
We're back.
We did not go anywhere, wedidn't stop.
We didn't go anywhere, wedidn't stop.
Hannah (01:35):
No, alright, cousin Mark , who is the serial killer you
want to talk about, because I'mvery excited for this?
Cousin Marc (01:41):
Well, we have Gary Leon Ridgeway, better known as
the Green River Killer.
Courtney (01:48):
And there's messed up, and then there's like Gary
Ridgeway- messed up, that's what.
I said to Hannah the other day.
I'm like there's like yeah,that guy's pretty jacked up, and
then there's this guy, and thenthere's this guy, mr Low IQ and
avoided the police for 20 years.
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (02:03):
Imagine that.
Courtney (02:04):
And mommy issues.
You got to throw that in thepot.
Always a good mommy issue.
Lots and lots of mommy issues.
Cousin Marc (02:12):
Freud talks a lot about that when he was doing
things like this.
Yeah, he was talking about howboys have.
Oh, what's the word?
Courtney (02:18):
I'm looking for the Oedipus Complex.
Cousin Marc (02:20):
Yes, the Oedipus Complex, which their first love
is their mother.
Hannah (02:25):
Mm-hmm.
Cousin Marc (02:25):
Yeah.
Courtney (02:27):
He talks about that and how it progresses fast for
him.
Cousin Marc (02:30):
Oh yeah.
Well, one of the things he saysis that the husband, the father
, needs to establish dominance.
This is my wife, I'm hers,she's not going to anybody else
and you can't have her.
But Gary's father wasn't likethat.
Gary's father was very weak,Never showed, never showed any.
(02:53):
You know male dominance in thefamily.
Hannah (02:56):
You know I have to say something because I apologize.
I'm interrupting here.
I have to bring up, you know,ted Bundy here.
Courtney (03:02):
It's just a matter of time how many minutes we got.
Hannah (03:04):
Six minutes and 41 seconds, rob, and here's bundy,
but cousin mark's all right, I'mgonna talk about him too cousin
mark says something reallyinteresting about how mothers
are usually the son's first lovetype of thing, and I'm thinking
of ted bundy and how he thoughthis grandmother was his mother
and I feel like that's a wholenother oh, it's a whole nother
layer of things that fucked himup.
Courtney (03:23):
I'm sure.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Cousin Marc (03:25):
Well, that's also a nurture thing.
Yeah, yes, which?
Hannah (03:28):
we talked about yeah.
Cousin Marc (03:29):
Nature or nurture, but that's the nurture thing.
Yeah, he was Bundy, wasdeceived by women and then he
targeted women.
Yeah, you know, and it was thesame thing with Bridgeway, 100%
Bridgeway.
As we get into him, you'regoing to notice how resentful he
was towards his mother but alsoloved her at the same time,
(03:50):
because that was the first womanhe's ever known, right.
Courtney (03:53):
And now.
Cousin Marc (03:54):
Edmund Kemper was the same way.
His mother was brutal, brutalto him.
Edmund Kemper was the co-edkiller out in.
Courtney (04:06):
California.
Cousin Marc (04:08):
That guy like 6'9", almost 350 pounds, oh, big boy.
He wasn't allowed to try outfor the police department
because he was too big.
But anyways, he was too big sothey wouldn't let him join the
academy.
You're too big, sir, butanyways, what?
Yeah, he was too big so theywouldn't let him join the
academy.
Courtney (04:28):
You're too big, sir.
You can't sit here.
You literally don't fit.
You can't fit in the cruiser,you can't be a police officer.
Hannah (04:35):
I thought bigger the better in the police department.
But what do I know?
Police brutality, yeah.
Cousin Marc (04:41):
For him.
His mother was very domineering, but he also had an iq of like
160, so he was extremely smartand, um, he's another one that
you know we can get into at somepoint, you know, in a future.
Gary Ridgway wasn't very smartaccording to IQ levels and just
(05:09):
had major issues with his mother.
Growing up he was a bedwetter.
Hannah (05:15):
Oh.
Cousin Marc (05:16):
Yeah, and he did that into his early teens.
Yeah, and his mother wasn'teasy on him.
His mother, would you know,degrade him in front of his
siblings and she wouldphysically hand wash him and in
her eyes, scrub the dirty parts.
Courtney (05:35):
Oh, there was a lot of , I think, along with how you
were saying, mark, that the dadwas supposed to be domineering,
he was supposed to be commandingthat respect.
I feel like his mom sort offilled that role of being the
dominant one in the house, whichalmost caused like a power
dynamic too, because she would Iread the same thing she would,
like you were saying, wash thedirty parts.
And there was a lot of sexualabuse that happened right there.
(05:56):
Because of that, I mean thatalone is demeaning.
Cousin Marc (05:59):
She worked at a tailor store and she would have
to measure the men's suits andshe would come back and tell
gary about how, you know, shewould get the men to have an
erection, you know, and whatthey smelled like.
And, oh god, yeah, she gave himall these, all these stories
(06:21):
that she went through to her sonand that's, and that's how he
started to learn about sex.
Courtney (06:28):
That was what his whole basis of like sexual
maturity and physical relationto women, and then when you
think about it, I mean physicalrelation to women and emotional
relationship to women.
She was physically andemotionally abusive.
So there's already this powerdynamic of like women here and
Gary here.
So it really doesn't surpriseme, especially with the trend of
people he goes after.
Once you start talking abouthis killings, it makes 100 sense
(06:51):
that that's who he targeted.
Hannah (06:52):
But once I heard that I was like oh bingo, there we go
and people don't normally thinkof women as special sexual
abusers, like abusers.
That doesn't really notsomething that people cross my.
You hear a sexual abuse, you'relike what man did it?
It's rare that women are doingit, but they do, yeah, they do
do it, I feel like a lot oftimes to children too.
Courtney (07:09):
I think a lot of the times that I hear about women as
the perpetrator, it's highschool boys who are.
You know, they don't.
They know it's wrong, but theydon't think about it that way
because they're horned up andthey're like well you know,
she's just a teacher, she's anolder woman, right Exactly.
Or you hear about it likeyounger boys because they're
like okay, well, no one's goingto question that a mom washing
her son in the bathtubespecially at that time, was
(07:32):
abusive Right.
Exactly.
You don't know.
You're never going to questiona mom and how she washes her
child.
Cousin Marc (07:37):
Like that's just not something that's going.
Back then you didn't Right.
Courtney (07:41):
Now, you do Now in this society.
Cousin Marc (07:43):
You're definitely going to question that.
Yeah, a hundred percent You'reright, yeah, which is which is
understandable, because somethings you you shouldn't do to a
child.
You know you should wash yourchild if they're small enough,
but you know not the way thatshe was where she was
embarrassing him, right, andmaking him feel dirty.
(08:03):
Yeah, a line was crossed, yeah,but again, that's why I brought
up kemper.
Kemper's mother was the sameway, because he was so big, she
was afraid that he was going todo something to his sister, so
she'd make.
She'd make him sleep in thebasement while everybody else is
(08:24):
upstairs in the bedroom.
So nothing happened.
Hannah (08:28):
And you wonder why these men have these like power
complex over these women.
Courtney (08:30):
There's always a reason.
There's always a reason Just.
Cousin Marc (08:34):
Well, that's why I mean you go back to the nature
or nurture thing.
You know, when kids are veryimpressionable, that's the
things that they relate to, whatthey see.
Courtney (08:44):
A hundred percent impressionable.
That's the things that theyrelate to, what they see.
100 and they don't even realizethey're doing it.
Our young years are soformidable.
Cousin Marc (08:48):
People don't realize that their beliefs and
things they take on what theirfamily believes yeah, and that's
why ridgeway had such a hardtime, because his in his mind,
some of his first sexualfantasies were violent scrubbing
, so violent sex comes into thatthought process so I know me
(09:08):
and you.
Hannah (09:10):
We had a conversation earlier this week about nature
and nurture, and so remind me ifyour belief is that most of
this is nurture.
Like they might have had aswitch nature speaking in their
minds, but it was the nurturethat really kind of switched it
on.
Am I right?
Is?
Cousin Marc (09:26):
that what you're thinking.
Yes, I think it's just theindividual.
You know how the individualperceives what they're looking
at, you know, because Bundy waslied to by the two most
important women in his life, hismother and his grandmother, but
(09:48):
he thought was sister andmother.
That's a pretty big lie, youknow.
And there's other serialkillers that have had the same
issues.
You know Ridgway wasn't lied to, he was just pushed in a
direction of what sex should beright.
So he, you know that was whatformed in his brain at a very
(10:11):
young age right, and most of hisvictims were sex workers
because they were vulnerable,easy targets yeah, and he
definitely like.
Courtney (10:19):
I believe I can't remember.
I've read a couple of differentthings about him, so I can't
remember the exact source onthis.
I apologize, but I believe hewas even directly quoted saying
things like just not believingin sex workers, not believing
that they were real people andthings.
He didn't believe that theywere worth anything because of
what they did.
He viewed them as dirty.
Cousin Marc (10:38):
He actually told the police.
I thought I was doing you afavor.
Courtney (10:41):
Yeah, wow, and that's 100% the nurture and the
behavioral piece in my mind too.
I'm with Mark on that one.
I think somebody kept tellinghim he was dirty and he was bad.
And now he's looking at theseother people who are, in his
mind, dirty and bad and he'slike they don't deserve to be
here, just like how I didn'tdeserve these other things too.
It makes 100% sense that he'slike they're a woman and they're
(11:01):
dirty and they're they're thesedifferent things because he
first, when he first startedkilling, he would.
Cousin Marc (11:09):
He would choke him from behind.
You know, put him in like a,put him in a chokehold and uh,
that was how he killed the first.
Like three or four of them.
And just to degrade them more,he would.
When he went to throw them inthe water, he was stuffing
things inside of them.
Hannah (11:26):
Yeah, so was he soliciting them first, or was he
just finding them and thengoing behind?
Courtney (11:32):
Was it kind of like hey, I want your services?
He was going and trying tostart a business transaction and
taking them Okay, Sometimes infront of his son.
Cousin Marc (11:39):
Because that was the easiest way to get them in
the vehicles.
Yeah, okay, okay, because theywillingly get in with you and no
one's paying attention to them,right, except one that he did
pick up.
Her boyfriend, pimp, was behindher and was following, but he
got stopped at a light andRidgeway drove off and he
(12:02):
couldn't find where the car went.
And Ridgway drove off and hecouldn't find where the car went
.
So the next day the father ofthe woman that Ridgway had and
the boyfriend went out drivingand they actually found his
truck in the driveway.
So they called the police.
The police came in, looked atRidgway and he was calm as could
(12:22):
be.
No one's here, blah, blah, blah, and they had no reason to
question him any further.
So they just they let him go.
They're like he's, she's not inthere.
You know you guys are probablywrong and you know just one of
the ways Ridgeway got away frombeing interviewed by police.
Courtney (12:38):
Right, and I think also the low intelligence.
I mean that you can tell whenyou're talking to someone if low
intelligence.
I mean that you can tell whenyou're talking to someone if his
intelligence really presentedas low as it was on the IQ scale
.
I'm sure there was a lot ofoverlooking him.
Simply, oh, this guy couldn'the.
He's more in that time, oh,he's more simple than that.
He couldn't get this done andhe was never bringing them to
his house.
So it was kind of genius whenyou think about it.
(12:59):
He was never to him, except hiscar.
Was this?
Cousin Marc (13:01):
I'm sorry, 70s, 60s , uh, the 82, oh 82, oh, okay,
so 82 so we're, we're justslowly getting into you know,
the dna and testing for things,but it's still in its infancy at
that point.
So they really couldn't.
You know, they could do swabsand you, you know, check for you
(13:23):
know secretor, non-secretor andwhatnot.
But that's the other thing.
It's hard to prove with aprostitute who was the last one
to have sex with them, becauseit could have been, you know, if
you get semen samples, it couldbe the fact that, yeah, that I
did have sex with thatprostitute but I walked away
from her.
Courtney (13:42):
Right, yeah, right.
And at that time there was acrime in it, but it wasn't
wasn't murder.
We weren't talking about murder.
It wasn't murder, right, right.
Cousin Marc (13:49):
Just because someone's unfaithful to their
wife and they go to a prostitutedoesn't make them a murderer.
Right, right, right.
Hannah (13:59):
And also he could have had sex with her.
Courtney (14:00):
Right.
Hannah (14:01):
Like it just happens to be that they never had sex.
Courtney (14:03):
I also believe that he he wasn't.
It doesn't seem like, from thereading that I had done, that he
often used vaginal sex.
It seemed like he was more oflike an oral sex.
Hannah (14:12):
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (14:14):
Yeah, then again, a lot of times it was from behind
, right, and that was how hegrabbed them.
So once he figured out that, ashe was choking them, the women
would scratch him, he would.
Then, once he got scratched, hewould actually clip their
fingernails.
Oh, he was tidy, so there wasno skin, but after he was
getting scratched he started touse a ligature Right, Just like
(14:38):
here.
He didn't have to get damagedand then have to explain
scratches and whatnot.
Hannah (14:43):
But that's like a logical progression for someone,
so it boggles my mind that hehis IQ was as low as it was.
Cousin Marc (14:51):
Yeah, I mean because the other thing he did
was he would go to bus stationsand grab care from the toilets
and plant it around.
He would grab cigarette butts,so they all thought he smoked
Right.
Courtney (15:06):
It almost makes me wonder if he was like a crime
buff or something he was likeinto the pamphlets from hotels
yeah and leave them to make itlook like he was a traveler or a
guest from that hotel, and thenthey'd be down that rabbit hole
looking for him and he's justlike at his house one street
down, just chilling and cory,you mentioned a son.
Hannah (15:24):
I believe he had a son.
He was he married.
Cousin Marc (15:27):
I believe it was math he was married once, right?
Courtney (15:30):
or was it twice, three times?
Oh jesus, oh, I missed.
I missed a wife somewhere inthere.
Cousin Marc (15:33):
Yeah, uh, the first one he married in 78 okay, oh,
okay so they divorced and Ithink I'm pretty sure they
divorced in 79.
Courtney (15:42):
I have a whole bunch of notes I was gonna say the
first one wasn't very long.
I remember that.
Cousin Marc (15:46):
It was two years.
So Matthew was not from twoyears.
Courtney (15:50):
No, I want to say Matthew was from his second.
Cousin Marc (15:52):
Yes, I believe so.
There was a couple of timesthat he had his son in the
vehicle when he went and pickedup a girl.
Hannah (15:58):
Yeah, they asked him in an interview would you have
killed your son, if he saw itand he said I don't think so.
He didn't say no, I don't thinkso.
He said he, if he had.
Courtney (16:14):
If his son saw something, he would have had to
kill him.
Oh, he did say my god, it'sridiculous.
How old was the kid?
Cousin Marc (16:16):
young he was not that old.
Oh yeah, the women would ask tosee his id.
So he'd pull his id, out hisname, and in his wallet would be
pictures of his son.
So it put the women at easebecause you know.
Courtney (16:30):
Oh, he's a dad.
The father's not going to doanything yeah.
Cousin Marc (16:33):
And then there were other times where his son
wasn't with him but he had toysin the car.
So you know, jeez, yeah, butsee, that's the thing you know,
he was so smart in evading thepolice.
Yeah, with all this littlethings that you know, you
(16:55):
probably never would havethought of.
Courtney (16:56):
Yeah, he got good at it because he wasn't doing just
one thing all the time.
He really like diversified whathe was doing along the way, but
they always knew he was.
I mean, they hypothesizedbefore they caught him that he
was just one person.
And even all the all theprostitutes at the time that
they were able to get you know,data from to to write a book I
think it was ann rules book.
It was like, yeah, you know, Ikind of thought about it when I
(17:17):
got in the car with somebody butthis is how I pay my bills and
so I didn't think they were the.
You know, I didn't think he wasthe killer and I'm like, how do
you just go off a hunch whenyou know this guy's out here
killing prostitutes?
And you're just like, I got inthe car with him but I didn't
think it was him, so it was fine, and I'm like, oh my gosh but
that's.
Cousin Marc (17:34):
But that's what it is.
You know, the monster's notgonna look like a monster right,
yeah, so how old was he when hestarted?
Well, he was born in 49, solate 20s when he started early
30s.
So he started pretty early.
He did His thing.
Was I wanted to kill as manyprostitutes as I possibly could,
mission-based, yeah, which iswhy I don't understand why he
(17:58):
doesn't get as much publicity asthe bigger ones.
Courtney (18:03):
It's true, because he had a lot of victims, his victim
count was very high.
It was very high.
Cousin Marc (18:08):
It was the highest in the U?
S at that time.
Courtney (18:12):
It was in the forties Forties.
Cousin Marc (18:14):
Yeah, I don't think anybody's.
I mean Pinkton, willie Pinktongross.
He was active at this time too.
Courtney (18:22):
That's true.
Yeah, that's true, yeah.
Cousin Marc (18:24):
And he was in Vancouver, so they were like
really close to each other atthe time.
Huh, yeah, and that was one ofthe things Ridgeway did.
Ridgeway would bring bringvictims to different places to
try to throw off the the trail,mm.
Hannah (18:39):
Yeah, pinkton.
Courtney (18:40):
Yeah, His name, just like he's one of those people.
And I have a weird thing aboutonly a few things when it comes
to serial killers, butcannibalism is one of my things.
And then Pinkton just gives methe skeeves, Cause I don't know
what.
I don't know.
How about necrophilia.
I mean, yeah, I don't love theidea of necrophilia, but I don't
know why cannibalism is likelike.
Cousin Marc (19:02):
I can't with cannibalism, that's well, that's
one of the things Ridgway did,after he dumped the first, and
then would dump the bodies offthe side of the road and whatnot
in what he called clusters.
Yeah, so he'd use the same dumpsite and you know there were
(19:25):
times where, if he didn't havethe time to go pick up a
prostitute, he'd go back tothese dump sites, visit and have
sex with the court.
Courtney (19:36):
Oh my God, and there was at least one, where it was
like this person was decomposing, like I'm not talking about,
like she was there fromyesterday, like some left out,
like she was there a long asstime and decomposing, and he was
like oh, my God.
Cousin Marc (19:51):
I finally had to stop when I had to spread the
bugs away.
Hannah (19:56):
Oh God, yep.
How's that waffle feeling inyour stomach right now?
Courtney (20:01):
I just had a waffle before we hopped on here.
I'm glad I'm not trying to eatthe waffle right now, but yeah,
yeah, he's definitely there.
You can see sometimes whereyou're like he's so calculated,
maybe there wasn't somethingwrong, like maybe he just had
bad urges.
And then you hear things likethat.
You're like, nope, there's gotto be something disconnected in
there, because who in theirright mind I mean humans are
(20:22):
sex-driven creatures?
But who in their right mind,like I don't have time to pick
up a prostitute today, I'm justgonna go find this dead body
with bugs on it.
Oh yeah, it was around thecorner back over there.
No disrespect, disrespect tothe victims.
I'm very sorry, that wasinsensitive, but just the
mentality of him is very like.
You think you've got him peggedand then you're like what the
(20:43):
fuck?
Oh no, that's why I saidthere's messed up.
And then there's this guy.
Like he's just got so much tohim.
Do like a full psychoanalysison all of this.
So is he?
Hannah (20:54):
still alive.
I mean, we can almost get halfthat we can't still talk to him
mark's like get the van, we'regoing road trip, road trip, wait
, where is he?
Courtney (21:04):
I don't know that answer.
Cousin Marc (21:05):
Uh, he's in um washington oh, washington state
okay, yeah, washington stateyeah, but again I'm gonna bring
up Bundy.
Courtney (21:15):
Bundy, that's number two 2618, Rob.
Cousin Marc (21:27):
When Bundy was incarcerated in Florida.
After the Florida killings thedetectives from Washington came
down and interviewed Bundy toget perspective on a psychopath
serial killer.
A psychopath serial killer.
And he told them you know thatthis guy is going to revisit his
clusters.
And he said if you find a freshkill you should stake it out
and see if he shows back up.
(21:47):
He did show back up.
They just didn't have the rightones when he did show up.
But then once there were toomany there he would pick another
spot and go to another one.
Courtney (21:59):
Well, bundy knew, because Bundy favored dumping
sites too.
He did.
Bundy knew because he had hisown favored spots.
So I'm sure he and it's funnytoo, because that's one of those
things where I can imagine, asan investigator or a police
officer, you're like, okay, I'mgetting this information and
let's consider the source of whoit's coming from but also like
they're kind of an expert intheir field, like if you've got
someone behind bars, like, yes,they're a criminal.
(22:19):
Yes, what they do is wrong, yes, they might need some kind of
psychotic medication and thingsbut they also aren't like right.
They are an expert in theirfield, so why would you not take
their opinion and at least gotry what do they have to?
Cousin Marc (22:32):
gain or lose right from being in there, like like
he was dead, somebody thatthinks that way right, exactly
that's what I mean because anormal brain doesn't think that
exactly right, exactly.
Courtney (22:43):
You just keep coming up with short straws.
Cousin Marc (22:44):
At that point yeah, or they do think that way, but
they were raised correctly andthey go yeah, this is wrong, you
know, let's not do that right,if I do that, I'll end up behind
bars and I don't look good inorange.
Courtney (22:56):
So exactly was?
Hannah (22:57):
the police actually interested at first in these
women that were dying because oftheir profession?
Because I know with picton theyweren't really interested at
first.
They're like all right, anotherprostitute we found.
Okay, like let's move on.
Were they like actuallyinterested?
Courtney (23:12):
in.
I didn't get the impressionthat the police were dismissive
of them.
Cousin Marc (23:16):
It started out real slow because they didn't like
any case, they didn't think theyhad a serial killer on them.
Right, right.
Courtney (23:24):
They were just like oh , a prostitute went missing,
that's not unheard of, that'syes.
She could have run away, shecould have started a new life,
all that same stuff.
Cousin Marc (23:32):
And that's the thing with prostitutes.
You know they're adults, theycan go off the grid for as long
as they want.
It doesn't mean they're dead,right.
It doesn't mean they're missing.
They could have just went south.
Courtney (23:43):
And three-quarters of the time they're not using their
real identity, which makes iteven harder.
Cousin Marc (23:46):
Because the people who are.
Courtney (23:47):
You know?
Even the pimp might bereporting.
Okay, hannah is missing, butlike, how do we know?
Hannah is her real name.
She could be using an alias.
Hannah (23:54):
Right, and then you got the human trafficking piece too.
Courtney (23:56):
Right.
Hannah (23:56):
Their bodies can be moved wherever they want Right
Because to pimps and everybodyelse.
They're a piece of property andfree will.
Yeah, I could just be like.
You know what I'm all done withthis.
Courtney (24:04):
I'm just going to vanish, right.
So that's always a the right tobe able to open the case.
However, when it's an adult andthey're like well, there's no
foul play.
That person is allowed to justdisappear.
You and I are both allowed tojust say you know what?
Fuck this place.
Hannah (24:20):
I'm out and just get up and leave our life and we're
free Roman adults.
Courtney (24:23):
We're allowed to do that, but we lose so much
valuable time because of thathuman right, which is both a
blessing and kind of in a curse,I guess.
Hannah (24:32):
Especially when you have people that, like I, I feel
like I know you right.
If me and Britain were to go tothe police like no, you
understand, like Courtney had abusiness here, she has x, y and
z or she's not gonna go anywhereand they're like well, she's an
adult like you know my patterns, but they still wouldn't take
your word for it, exactly.
Courtney (24:47):
I mean it's unfortunate, but people will be
like oh well, maybe the personjust doesn't want to talk to you
and you're like like I mean,yeah, I guess, but it's a tough
spot, yep.
Cousin Marc (24:56):
But that happens in every single case.
Yeah, yep, I listened to onepodcast called the Teacher's Pet
, and the mother of two justdisappeared and everybody there
said there's no way this woman'sleaving her two kids.
Right Her two kids were herlife.
Right, there's no way.
Courtney (25:21):
And kids were her life right, there's no way.
And the police are like whatyou want me to do?
Yeah, exactly, and it's sadbecause I I see both sides of
that.
I see like, yeah, a human, ahuman adult, has the right to
just pick up and leave, and wedon't always know everything
about someone just because wethink we do, and I understand
that.
But I also feel like how manycases could we solve if we
didn't do that?
Yeah, like, honestly, if I evergo quote, unquote, missing, and
I'm just like pissed at ally'all and someone comes up to me
and they're like hey, yourfriends are really concerned for
you.
I'm gonna be like, first of all, I'm fine and tell them I said
fuck themselves.
(25:41):
Like, but also thank them forcaring about me.
Like I'm gonna call hannah andbe like I hate you.
We really have to do that.
But at the same time, I wouldbe like okay, but hannah cares
about me.
She was worried.
Yeah, I'll always be worried.
Yeah, she stalks my locationconstantly.
She's like hey, I see that it's6 pm.
Why are you in East Hartford?
Why are you not home yet?
(26:01):
Why aren't you home?
When are you coming home?
Hannah (26:07):
I don't know if anyone has your location, Mark, but A
couple do, but they don't use it.
Cousin Marc (26:16):
I feel like I always like say that on here
because I'm like don't target me.
People know where I am.
I know where you are.
I got a lot of people knowwhere I am.
I have my dad's location on myphone.
That's right here.
If something happens, I knowwhere I can find him.
Courtney (26:22):
Exactly, I usually just take the phones and just
add the location, becauseeveryone's like tech support, I
need help and I'm like, ooh,there you are.
Cousin Marc (26:37):
You're at the Walmart, I got you.
I got to look at something theynever know, we'll never notice.
But anyways, gary did serve inthe Navy, oh, he was military.
The first time and he saw.
He saw action in Vietnam andalso saw action in the
Philippines with the prostitutesthere.
Courtney (26:54):
Contributing factors.
He proceeded to pick up, Checkwhen he proceeded to pick up
Check, check.
Cousin Marc (26:57):
He proceeded to pick up STDs.
Oh, he was married to his firstwife, oh, you can see why that
one didn't last long.
Yeah, there's another issuewith Ridgway being mad at women.
You know for getting STDs, buthe never killed anyone over
there.
Courtney (27:16):
That we're aware of.
Cousin Marc (27:18):
Well, not in a military aspect.
Hannah (27:21):
Okay, oh, oh, oh, like action.
Cousin Marc (27:25):
He didn't kill anybody as in battle, but he
didn't we don't know if he didor not, but he didn't kill any
of the prostitutes that he waswith over there.
Hannah (27:32):
Okay, okay, I'm sorry.
Every time I hear vietnam, Ijust want to go vietnam.
Yeah right, what movie is that?
Cousin Marc (27:41):
I have no idea, no, that was uh.
Hannah (27:44):
Good morning vietnam yes , sorry, just every time I want
to say that, but anyways, it wasgood morning.
Courtney (27:53):
Vietnam.
I want to say the Office alsodoes that at one point.
They do yeah.
Cousin Marc (27:59):
Ridgway's first wife, while he was overseas, was
cheating on him over herebecause she was by herself.
Courtney (28:05):
In hindsight.
Good choice, buddy, Pat theback on that.
Cousin Marc (28:09):
one Good for her on that one, but again, it's just
another thing that solidifieshis Evilness in women Anger
towards women.
Courtney (28:18):
And he never hurt any of his wives, correct?
Cousin Marc (28:22):
No, I believe it was his second wife.
They went out somewhere and hesnuck around the car.
Courtney (28:29):
Yeah, oh yeah, I remember that and put her in a
chokehold.
Oh, the first wife, the secondwife, second wife, I think it
was the second wife Didn't hetry to say like that wasn't me.
There was a random man here,exactly, he tried to gaslight
her.
Cousin Marc (28:43):
He ran around the other side of the car and she's,
you know, choked out when shelet her go and he got on the
other side.
She was screaming, so he ranaround the other.
He pretended he wasn't there.
What's the matter?
She knew it was him, but shekept denying it.
Hannah (28:58):
Was she the one that produced the child?
Yeah, I believe so.
The second one okay, I believethat was the mother of his child
.
Courtney (29:02):
Yeah, I wonder if I can.
Cousin Marc (29:04):
That was the thing All of his ex-wives and
ex-girlfriends said.
He always wanted sex all thetime, and he wanted a lot of it
outdoors.
Courtney (29:21):
Yes, and he wanted, he wanted a lot of it outdoors,
yes, outdoors but.
Hannah (29:23):
But in 73 I showed a picture I don't know.
Courtney (29:24):
At least ted bundy was a good old guy there oh so is
he on death row or no?
No no he did a plea bargain andand admitted to all of them so
he wouldn't get the deathpenalty and it looks like his
marriages were claudia craigbarrows 1970 to 1972, then
marcia laureen brown 1973 to1981 and finally judith lorraine
(29:51):
lynch 1988 to 2002 yes, yes, hewas still with Judith when he
was arrested.
Yes, yeah, yeah, because 2002is far after he was.
Cousin Marc (30:03):
Well, he was arrested in the end of 2001.
That was when they finallycaught him.
He's 75.
His killings went down after hemarried Judith, because Judith
loved him and showed him thelove, unlike, unlike the other
two where the first one thefirst one cheated on him and
(30:27):
then Marsha, his second wife,ended up having gastric bypass.
Yes, so she got herself skinnyand he got.
He was afraid that she wasgonna cheat on him.
Courtney (30:36):
yeah, he was like resentful that other men were
gonna look at her because hedidn't want her.
I think in his mind to be dirtylike, yeah, now other men are
gonna want you.
Hannah (30:45):
They're gonna think about you impurely and so the
third wife is like kinks, bekinks, and is like I'll have sex
with you outside the backyard,they all commented on that.
Courtney (30:54):
We're like, yeah, he always wanted to have sex like
multiple times a day wassomething I remember them saying
and he always wanted to havesex violently and outside, like
he could never just be like, oh,like like a regular couple,
like let's have like lazymornings, like he knew he needed
it to be like outside andviolent and like multiple times
a day.
Cousin Marc (31:10):
Well, when you go back to it, that is normal for
him.
Courtney (31:14):
That's true, yeah, because of the violence from his
mom, his brain is normal.
Hannah (31:18):
So did.
Did he like it when they werestill?
Because I know some killers arelike I need you to be
completely still like a corpse,Bundy.
Cousin Marc (31:26):
Yeah, that's true, bundy, bundy.
Bundy liked them acting deadGross yeah.
Hannah (31:39):
But again, it's not even noon.
Courtney (31:40):
Yet we're like, yeah, necrophilia, and I will say so.
I'm looking at a huge, longlist of all of his victims,
which is super sad and andhonestly, my heart breaks
looking at this list.
Putting names to it really justbrings it home makes it worse,
yeah but I'm looking at most ofthe ages and, as of youngest, 16
, 15, the oldest I've seen sofar is 31.
Cousin Marc (31:58):
There's only been one person 30 or over way down
the bottom you're gonna have tosee the 36 patricia there's a
okay.
Courtney (32:05):
So there was three that were over 30 and everybody
else was mid-20s and below.
You're right, because he, martareeves, was 36 and Patricia Ann
Yellow Robe was 38.
Cousin Marc (32:16):
Yeah, but he also had one that he killed, that he
knew, and she was a waitress.
Which is interesting, shewasn't a prostitute.
Courtney (32:26):
Doesn't fit.
Unless he, like maybe hadfantasized about her or he had
seen something, he made amistake.
Cousin Marc (32:31):
He made a mistake and he admits to that.
And after he killed her he laiddown next to her and cuddled
her and cried because he knew hescrewed up.
Courtney (32:42):
But see, that's where the behaviorist in me is so
fascinated, because thesemission based serial killers
really believe in their missionto the core.
They believe what they're doingis for a greater purpose.
They do believe it's right,because that's you can't tell me
.
That's a person who doesn'tfeel empathy and who doesn't
feel sorry he did.
In our morals we should havefelt bad the whole time, but he,
he got so upset because he madea mistake that he does
(33:04):
understand empathy and he doesunderstand how to feel for
somebody else.
So it's like that's where it'sfascinating to me on the emotion
side social side, social,emotionally, like he does know.
Cousin Marc (33:23):
He just believed in his mission more than you know
anything else.
Well, when he married hissecond wife, masha, he became
very religious.
He became very religious.
You know he, he was being thefamily man.
You know, going to churchcrying during sermons.
Courtney (33:31):
Part of me wants to go mania question mark, because
like hyper religiousness is likea huge thing in mania makes me
wonder about like a bpd or abipolar oh, that was.
Cousin Marc (33:41):
That was dennis raider btk.
He was the head guy at thechurch that he was, that he was
part of oh, doesn't that makeyour skin crawl.
Courtney (33:49):
There's something about being in a religious power
of position and also being aserial killer that just makes my
.
All those times I was forced togo to catechism, I'm like guys.
You don't know how close I wasto death.
Hannah (34:00):
Dude, we still need to do a whole episode on religious
trauma because you know, becauseof Mark I don't know if he
knows about me but I grew upextremely religious.
So my school, my private school, was actually attached to the
church that I went to.
So I was there six days a week,whether it was for school or
(34:20):
church on Sunday, I was thereevery day except Saturday.
And come to find out one of theyouth pastors.
Courtney (34:23):
That was part of coaching the volleyball team.
Hannah (34:23):
He was in Bible classes with us.
He was there on Sundays forclasses.
He moved to Florida for thisgreat principal job at this
private Christian school.
He gets arrested for sexuallyabusing children and that man
was like in my life, like, andmy mom actually had to come to
us and be like did he doanything to you guys like that I
(34:45):
don't know about.
Like it's disgusting to me thatthese people are just they're
everywhere.
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (34:51):
Yeah, but then that goes with nature.
Yeah, yeah, but then that thatgoes with nature.
Yeah, this guy is surrounded bykids 10 hours a day.
The opportunity is there yeah,you know the opportunity base
that's, that's the opportunityand if and if you're, if you can
be a good judge of character,you can.
(35:12):
You can figure out the weakones and strong ones and then
you exploit them.
Or even not, if you're a goodjudge of character, you can
figure out the weak ones andstrong ones and then you exploit
them.
Courtney (35:17):
Or even not if you're a good judge of character.
I mean, some of these peopleare in guidance counselor
positions.
These kids are being forced tocome and tell you all the things
that are going wrong with them.
You don't even have to be goodat reading kids.
You're literally like oh, thiskid just came in and told me he
gets beaten at home If I makehim feel special and give him
some things, it's.
It's so hard because childrenare so impressionable.
Like you said earlier, it is soeasy to find what they want.
(35:38):
We behaviorists you talk aboutturning the behavior on and
turning it off.
You know how to reinforce thesekids and it's.
It really is not a skill thateverybody should have.
It's, uh, use the wrong way.
Hannah (35:48):
It's very gross and just think about, like danny croto,
like when I did two episodesover a year ago at this point
that was a rough one, his familywas like oh, a Catholic priest.
There can be nothing wrong,danny.
You need to be with this priestmore.
He can help shape you into awonderful man.
Yes, and to the point where,like he got picked up by this
priest at school and he wascrying and his friends remember
(36:09):
he's like I don't want to gowith him, but like yeah, yeah,
the parents were like no, it's apriest, it's a man of god, he,
they would never do anything mychild.
Courtney (36:16):
And that fucking priest murdered him and I think,
fortunately, as a society,we're coming away from like,
like, I think the and obviouslyfor what I do, for work, I work
with a lot of families.
I work with a lot of parents.
I feel like I see a lot moreparents who are like, yeah, no,
if I I can't go do that becauseI have to be home with my kid.
And someone will say like, oh,why don't you get a babysitter?
And I've seen moms be like, uh,because I don't trust anybody
(36:37):
with my kid.
Yeah, I'm not gonna trust asingle person.
Like people will say what aboutyour sister?
Well, you know what, I don'ttrust her.
And just because she's mysister doesn't mean I should
trust her to watch my kids.
That's a very personal thing.
I like that we're coming aroundto the idea of like we're just
gonna pay that random guy downthe street to hang out with our
kids.
That's kind of weird when youthink about it.
Hannah (36:54):
Billy Bob next door is a really nice guy when he mows
his lawn.
Courtney (36:57):
Like that doesn't mean shit.
Exactly.
Cousin Marc (36:59):
Exactly.
Well, that was the babysitter.
Courtney (37:01):
Yeah, tony Costa.
Cousin Marc (37:02):
Yeah, out on the Cape.
Courtney (37:03):
Yeah, yeah, I did an episode on him.
Cousin Marc (37:05):
Yeah, yeah.
They would always hang aroundwith him out on the dump this
and that, and then the nextthing you know, he's murdering
people from the hotel that hewas working at.
Courtney (37:16):
The good thing about Tony?
Well, not a good thing thething about Tony is he had a
very specific type of.
He murdered women he was inrelationships with or women who
were around a certain age.
So the kids were probablyalways safe with Tony, because I
really don't believe.
After I've read, like I think,three books on him now, I really
don't get the impression thathe ever would have like.
I do believe he, as far astaking care of children was, I
(37:36):
do believe he was a good guy.
He enjoyed spending time withthem.
He took them to do things.
Maybe he shouldn't have takenthem to a place where he was
growing his marijuana andburying his bodies, but I think
they were always.
I think those girls were alwayssafe with him.
Cousin Marc (37:47):
To be honest, yeah, he's bought him for ice cream.
Courtney (37:49):
I'm surprised he didn't try to kill their mom
though, because she fit theprofile.
Cousin Marc (37:53):
She fit the profile hard but see, that's the thing
with children and, like you said, hannah, you know that's a
priest, you go, go with them.
The priest is yeah, whenchildren are saying something,
the parents just brush it off oh, they're lying, oh, they're
just kids.
Courtney (38:08):
Yeah, you're looking for attention with?
Cousin Marc (38:10):
cops yep, some cops use abuse their authority and
some don't.
But it's like how do youdifferentiate?
Courtney (38:19):
right, right.
Cousin Marc (38:20):
That's the problem you can't tell which adult is
being mean to the child, becauseyou're going to believe the
adult before you believe thechild.
Right, right, which is sad insociety, but anyways oh man,
tangent, that's, okay.
That was one of the otherthings that I had found when I
was doing my research for him.
(38:40):
I never knew how they gotfingerprints off of a body that
was submerged in water for solong.
Courtney (38:47):
Right, and how would they be reliable?
I guess is the word.
Hannah (38:50):
Oh yeah, this is interesting.
Cousin Marc (38:52):
What the coroners would do was they would cut the
wrist and pull the skin off likea glove and they'd wear it
right and wear it to get thefingerprints, because that was
the easiest way to firm the skinup after it's been waterlogged.
Courtney (39:09):
so that they could get a viable print.
But that's so interesting.
I don't know what it is aboutdismembering bodies that makes
my body feel uncomfortable.
Hannah (39:18):
Well, you're supposed to feel uncomfortable.
Courtney (39:19):
Something about wearing people's skin and
cannibalism.
There's just something aboutthose two.
Well, you're not wearing it forfun, but they're still wearing
it.
Hannah (39:26):
They're like let me put it on.
Cousin Marc (39:27):
You said like gloves.
That makes me uncomfortable.
You at least have a rubberglove on in between?
I would hope so.
You gotta use some kind ofprotection there.
Courtney (39:37):
No gloves, no love, that's exactly what I was gonna
say, Mark.
I was like I'm gonna keep itclean.
I don't know how cool Mark iswith that.
Oh, no, Mark's cool with that.
Hannah (39:45):
Mark is cool with that.
You should be his brother, Matt.
You can't offend me.
Courtney (39:49):
I think we should make t-shirts that say no glove, no
love, with a cousin mark emblemon it and it has just like a
skin hand.
I'm gonna ask rob he can createone.
It's like the adams family handyes, but it says no glove no
love, that's it, cousin markdash, cousin, today's date what
2 2, 25.
(40:09):
I love it, let's do it.
Cousin Marc (40:13):
One of the things gary ridgeway talked about was
having a polygraph.
Courtney (40:18):
He ended up passing.
Cousin Marc (40:20):
So they looked at Ridgeway and they asked him.
They said how did you pass thepolygraph?
He says, and I quote, and hereI am quoting.
He says well, I just sat thereand I relaxed and I answered
their questions.
Courtney (40:34):
Yeah, well, because it does go off of, I think, like
your pulse and things like thatyeah your heart rate when you're
lying to somebody.
You're like when we were lyingto Rob about a surprise party.
He's like we're going to go dothis and we're like okay.
Cousin Marc (40:45):
Yeah, and your heart starts to and we're
sweating, yeah.
But if you go into it andyou're like take a Xanax.
I could pass the polygraph thatway.
But this is why polygraphsaren't allowed in court cases.
Courtney (40:57):
Right right, because they don't really tell you
anything, because you canmanipulate them.
Yeah, it's interesting also,though he was not intelligent
according to his IQ score, butyet he was intelligent enough to
fake the polygraph.
Cousin Marc (41:08):
They're psychopaths .
I like that.
Yeah, we're so psychopaths bothof them, we're so past both of
them.
But once they started to getinto DNA and everything, they
had an article of clothing fromthe first murder victim that
they had saved, that piece ofclothing that they had had spray
paint particles on it he was apainter.
But they never.
They, you know, back then theycouldn't analyze it and figure
(41:32):
out what it was.
They could just see little tinyred spots.
So now fast forward to DNAprocesses.
They were able to figure outthat it was spray paint for
vehicles and they were able tonarrow it down because Ridgeway
worked at the Kenworth TruckingCompany, spray painting the new
(41:52):
vehicles, spray painting the newvehicles, which was one of the
ways that they caught himbecause of having it on his
clothes and passing it off.
As you know, touch DNA.
So they were able to.
Courtney (42:07):
They had to get sharp with his teeth, yeah.
Cousin Marc (42:10):
And they ended up picking him up at work.
That was where they grabbed him.
Courtney (42:14):
Hard to say.
You don't work there whenyou're there, huh.
Cousin Marc (42:17):
Yeah, and it was funny because he was so strange
that his co-workers werestarting to name him the Green
River Killer.
Courtney (42:28):
Imagine the irony.
Cousin Marc (42:30):
They were trying to goof on him, not knowing that
it was really him yeah, notknowing how close to death they
were for saying that to a manwho'd killed.
Courtney (42:38):
he was actually 49, I think it was 48, but a Jane Doe,
so 49, I think.
Cousin Marc (42:43):
Yeah, in 2010,.
Hannah (42:44):
they found another victim that they attributed to
him, so he ended up admitting tothat one too 48 life counts,
life sentences, yeah, so I meanhe'll be out soon you know, it's
like a thousand years orsomething like that.
Cousin Marc (42:58):
Yeah, but he had to plead.
He had to plead guilty to allof them to avoid the death
penalty.
Courtney (43:05):
But like.
Why would you want to stayalive to like it makes me wonder
how much more there is for themto.
Hannah (43:10):
Does he have parole, or is that without parole?
That's without parole.
No, no, no, no, he did not getparole.
Cousin Marc (43:16):
He's serving 49 life sentences, so there's no
parole.
Courtney (43:21):
There's no good behavior situation here.
Cousin Marc (43:23):
There is no star chart for Gary Ridgeway.
Courtney (43:26):
All right, I'm going to stop our recording here.
Wait, should we say goodbye?
Oh, I'm not going to stop ourrecording here.
Hannah (43:33):
I feel like we should say goodbye to him.
He spent like two and a halfhours on you.
Courtney (43:37):
Well, I was going to say goodbye to him.
I wasn't just going to presslog off on him, I was just going
to hit stop recording.
But shouldn't we say goodbye tohim though on air?
Okay, sure, go ahead, hannah,lead us on your goodbye.
Should we sing him a song?
Hannah (43:48):
Goodbye, so long.
Courtney (43:51):
I don't know the words to this one.
Hannah (43:54):
This is getting really weird Goodbye.
Courtney (43:56):
Welcome to us.
We don't know how to start orend a conversation.
Bye.
Thank you, Cousin Mark.
We appreciate you coming on anddoing your thing and you're
obviously welcome back wheneveryou have more things you want to
yap about.
Cousin Marc (44:06):
Yes, always All right, that's awesome.
I would love to be back.
You guys just let me know andwe'll figure out a time and
we'll banter.
Courtney (44:15):
Sounds perfect, banter .
Hannah (44:17):
And don't forget we have a group chat, so we need to
hear from you, because I'mworking on ladies.
Courtney (44:22):
Of course.
Alright, now I'm going to pressBye.
Hannah (44:27):
Thanks for listening.
Today, wicked Wanderings ishosted by me, hannah, and
co-hosted by me, courtney, andit's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick
.
Music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
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(44:48):
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
and we're live oh boy, do I have shenanigans?
Courtney (00:06):
yay, that's perfect.
We love shenanigans.
I almost wish we had beenrecording trying to figure out
hannah's mic, so we'll play andprobably break his soundboard
okay.
Hannah (00:26):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:33):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (00:55):
This is Wicked Wanderings, hi Courtney, hi
Hannah, and we have a specialguest.
Courtney (01:03):
Drumroll please.
Hannah (01:04):
Cousin Mark In the flesh sort of In the virtual flesh.
Courtney (01:10):
That sounds weird.
In the voice sounds better.
You're right, cousin Mark, inthe voice, in the voice.
Hannah (01:19):
Also, I feel like we need to put out there that we
are sorry.
We have not had an episode intwo or three weeks.
Courtney (01:21):
It's been a few weeks, guys.
We've had some.
I'll say I had some familymatters come up in the beginning
of January.
I'll take ownership of that onepersonally.
We're back.
We did not go anywhere, wedidn't stop.
We didn't go anywhere, wedidn't stop.
Hannah (01:35):
No, alright, cousin Mark , who is the serial killer you
want to talk about, because I'mvery excited for this?
Cousin Marc (01:41):
Well, we have Gary Leon Ridgeway, better known as
the Green River Killer.
Courtney (01:48):
And there's messed up, and then there's like Gary
Ridgeway- messed up, that's what.
I said to Hannah the other day.
I'm like there's like yeah,that guy's pretty jacked up, and
then there's this guy, and thenthere's this guy, mr Low IQ and
avoided the police for 20 years.
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (02:03):
Imagine that.
Courtney (02:04):
And mommy issues.
You got to throw that in thepot.
Always a good mommy issue.
Lots and lots of mommy issues.
Cousin Marc (02:12):
Freud talks a lot about that when he was doing
things like this.
Yeah, he was talking about howboys have.
Oh, what's the word?
Courtney (02:18):
I'm looking for the Oedipus Complex.
Cousin Marc (02:20):
Yes, the Oedipus Complex, which their first love
is their mother.
Hannah (02:25):
Mm-hmm.
Cousin Marc (02:25):
Yeah.
Courtney (02:27):
He talks about that and how it progresses fast for
him.
Cousin Marc (02:30):
Oh yeah.
Well, one of the things he saysis that the husband, the father
, needs to establish dominance.
This is my wife, I'm hers,she's not going to anybody else
and you can't have her.
But Gary's father wasn't likethat.
Gary's father was very weak,Never showed, never showed any.
(02:53):
You know male dominance in thefamily.
Hannah (02:56):
You know I have to say something because I apologize.
I'm interrupting here.
I have to bring up, you know,ted Bundy here.
Courtney (03:02):
It's just a matter of time how many minutes we got.
Hannah (03:04):
Six minutes and 41 seconds, rob, and here's bundy,
but cousin mark's all right, I'mgonna talk about him too cousin
mark says something reallyinteresting about how mothers
are usually the son's first lovetype of thing, and I'm thinking
of ted bundy and how he thoughthis grandmother was his mother
and I feel like that's a wholenother oh, it's a whole nother
layer of things that fucked himup.
Courtney (03:23):
I'm sure.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Cousin Marc (03:25):
Well, that's also a nurture thing.
Yeah, yes, which?
Hannah (03:28):
we talked about yeah.
Cousin Marc (03:29):
Nature or nurture, but that's the nurture thing.
Yeah, he was Bundy, wasdeceived by women and then he
targeted women.
Yeah, you know, and it was thesame thing with Bridgeway, 100%
Bridgeway.
As we get into him, you'regoing to notice how resentful he
was towards his mother but alsoloved her at the same time,
(03:50):
because that was the first womanhe's ever known, right.
Courtney (03:53):
And now.
Cousin Marc (03:54):
Edmund Kemper was the same way.
His mother was brutal, brutalto him.
Edmund Kemper was the co-edkiller out in.
Courtney (04:06):
California.
Cousin Marc (04:08):
That guy like 6'9", almost 350 pounds, oh, big boy.
He wasn't allowed to try outfor the police department
because he was too big.
But anyways, he was too big sothey wouldn't let him join the
academy.
You're too big, sir, butanyways, what?
Yeah, he was too big so theywouldn't let him join the
academy.
Courtney (04:28):
You're too big, sir.
You can't sit here.
You literally don't fit.
You can't fit in the cruiser,you can't be a police officer.
Hannah (04:35):
I thought bigger the better in the police department.
But what do I know?
Police brutality, yeah.
Cousin Marc (04:41):
For him.
His mother was very domineering, but he also had an iq of like
160, so he was extremely smartand, um, he's another one that
you know we can get into at somepoint, you know, in a future.
Gary Ridgway wasn't very smartaccording to IQ levels and just
(05:09):
had major issues with his mother.
Growing up he was a bedwetter.
Hannah (05:15):
Oh.
Cousin Marc (05:16):
Yeah, and he did that into his early teens.
Yeah, and his mother wasn'teasy on him.
His mother, would you know,degrade him in front of his
siblings and she wouldphysically hand wash him and in
her eyes, scrub the dirty parts.
Courtney (05:35):
Oh, there was a lot of , I think, along with how you
were saying, mark, that the dadwas supposed to be domineering,
he was supposed to be commandingthat respect.
I feel like his mom sort offilled that role of being the
dominant one in the house, whichalmost caused like a power
dynamic too, because she would Iread the same thing she would,
like you were saying, wash thedirty parts.
And there was a lot of sexualabuse that happened right there.
(05:56):
Because of that, I mean thatalone is demeaning.
Cousin Marc (05:59):
She worked at a tailor store and she would have
to measure the men's suits andshe would come back and tell
gary about how, you know, shewould get the men to have an
erection, you know, and whatthey smelled like.
And, oh god, yeah, she gave himall these, all these stories
(06:21):
that she went through to her sonand that's, and that's how he
started to learn about sex.
Courtney (06:28):
That was what his whole basis of like sexual
maturity and physical relationto women, and then when you
think about it, I mean physicalrelation to women and emotional
relationship to women.
She was physically andemotionally abusive.
So there's already this powerdynamic of like women here and
Gary here.
So it really doesn't surpriseme, especially with the trend of
people he goes after.
Once you start talking abouthis killings, it makes 100 sense
(06:51):
that that's who he targeted.
Hannah (06:52):
But once I heard that I was like oh bingo, there we go
and people don't normally thinkof women as special sexual
abusers, like abusers.
That doesn't really notsomething that people cross my.
You hear a sexual abuse, you'relike what man did it?
It's rare that women are doingit, but they do, yeah, they do
do it, I feel like a lot oftimes to children too.
Courtney (07:09):
I think a lot of the times that I hear about women as
the perpetrator, it's highschool boys who are.
You know, they don't.
They know it's wrong, but theydon't think about it that way
because they're horned up andthey're like well you know,
she's just a teacher, she's anolder woman, right Exactly.
Or you hear about it likeyounger boys because they're
like okay, well, no one's goingto question that a mom washing
her son in the bathtubespecially at that time, was
(07:32):
abusive Right.
Exactly.
You don't know.
You're never going to questiona mom and how she washes her
child.
Cousin Marc (07:37):
Like that's just not something that's going.
Back then you didn't Right.
Courtney (07:41):
Now, you do Now in this society.
Cousin Marc (07:43):
You're definitely going to question that.
Yeah, a hundred percent You'reright, yeah, which is which is
understandable, because somethings you you shouldn't do to a
child.
You know you should wash yourchild if they're small enough,
but you know not the way thatshe was where she was
embarrassing him, right, andmaking him feel dirty.
(08:03):
Yeah, a line was crossed, yeah,but again, that's why I brought
up kemper.
Kemper's mother was the sameway, because he was so big, she
was afraid that he was going todo something to his sister, so
she'd make.
She'd make him sleep in thebasement while everybody else is
(08:24):
upstairs in the bedroom.
So nothing happened.
Hannah (08:28):
And you wonder why these men have these like power
complex over these women.
Courtney (08:30):
There's always a reason.
There's always a reason Just.
Cousin Marc (08:34):
Well, that's why I mean you go back to the nature
or nurture thing.
You know, when kids are veryimpressionable, that's the
things that they relate to, whatthey see.
Courtney (08:44):
A hundred percent impressionable.
That's the things that theyrelate to, what they see.
100 and they don't even realizethey're doing it.
Our young years are soformidable.
Cousin Marc (08:48):
People don't realize that their beliefs and
things they take on what theirfamily believes yeah, and that's
why ridgeway had such a hardtime, because his in his mind,
some of his first sexualfantasies were violent scrubbing
, so violent sex comes into thatthought process so I know me
(09:08):
and you.
Hannah (09:10):
We had a conversation earlier this week about nature
and nurture, and so remind me ifyour belief is that most of
this is nurture.
Like they might have had aswitch nature speaking in their
minds, but it was the nurturethat really kind of switched it
on.
Am I right?
Is?
Cousin Marc (09:26):
that what you're thinking.
Yes, I think it's just theindividual.
You know how the individualperceives what they're looking
at, you know, because Bundy waslied to by the two most
important women in his life, hismother and his grandmother, but
(09:48):
he thought was sister andmother.
That's a pretty big lie, youknow.
And there's other serialkillers that have had the same
issues.
You know Ridgway wasn't lied to, he was just pushed in a
direction of what sex should beright.
So he, you know that was whatformed in his brain at a very
(10:11):
young age right, and most of hisvictims were sex workers
because they were vulnerable,easy targets yeah, and he
definitely like.
Courtney (10:19):
I believe I can't remember.
I've read a couple of differentthings about him, so I can't
remember the exact source onthis.
I apologize, but I believe hewas even directly quoted saying
things like just not believingin sex workers, not believing
that they were real people andthings.
He didn't believe that theywere worth anything because of
what they did.
He viewed them as dirty.
Cousin Marc (10:38):
He actually told the police.
I thought I was doing you afavor.
Courtney (10:41):
Yeah, wow, and that's 100% the nurture and the
behavioral piece in my mind too.
I'm with Mark on that one.
I think somebody kept tellinghim he was dirty and he was bad.
And now he's looking at theseother people who are, in his
mind, dirty and bad and he'slike they don't deserve to be
here, just like how I didn'tdeserve these other things too.
It makes 100% sense that he'slike they're a woman and they're
(11:01):
dirty and they're they're thesedifferent things because he
first, when he first startedkilling, he would.
Cousin Marc (11:09):
He would choke him from behind.
You know, put him in like a,put him in a chokehold and uh,
that was how he killed the first.
Like three or four of them.
And just to degrade them more,he would.
When he went to throw them inthe water, he was stuffing
things inside of them.
Hannah (11:26):
Yeah, so was he soliciting them first, or was he
just finding them and thengoing behind?
Courtney (11:32):
Was it kind of like hey, I want your services?
He was going and trying tostart a business transaction and
taking them Okay, Sometimes infront of his son.
Cousin Marc (11:39):
Because that was the easiest way to get them in
the vehicles.
Yeah, okay, okay, because theywillingly get in with you and no
one's paying attention to them,right, except one that he did
pick up.
Her boyfriend, pimp, was behindher and was following, but he
got stopped at a light andRidgeway drove off and he
(12:02):
couldn't find where the car went.
And Ridgway drove off and hecouldn't find where the car went
.
So the next day the father ofthe woman that Ridgway had and
the boyfriend went out drivingand they actually found his
truck in the driveway.
So they called the police.
The police came in, looked atRidgway and he was calm as could
(12:22):
be.
No one's here, blah, blah, blah, and they had no reason to
question him any further.
So they just they let him go.
They're like he's, she's not inthere.
You know you guys are probablywrong and you know just one of
the ways Ridgeway got away frombeing interviewed by police.
Courtney (12:38):
Right, and I think also the low intelligence.
I mean that you can tell whenyou're talking to someone if low
intelligence.
I mean that you can tell whenyou're talking to someone if his
intelligence really presentedas low as it was on the IQ scale
.
I'm sure there was a lot ofoverlooking him.
Simply, oh, this guy couldn'the.
He's more in that time, oh,he's more simple than that.
He couldn't get this done andhe was never bringing them to
his house.
So it was kind of genius whenyou think about it.
(12:59):
He was never to him, except hiscar.
Was this?
Cousin Marc (13:01):
I'm sorry, 70s, 60s , uh, the 82, oh 82, oh, okay,
so 82 so we're, we're justslowly getting into you know,
the dna and testing for things,but it's still in its infancy at
that point.
So they really couldn't.
You know, they could do swabsand you, you know, check for you
(13:23):
know secretor, non-secretor andwhatnot.
But that's the other thing.
It's hard to prove with aprostitute who was the last one
to have sex with them, becauseit could have been, you know, if
you get semen samples, it couldbe the fact that, yeah, that I
did have sex with thatprostitute but I walked away
from her.
Courtney (13:42):
Right, yeah, right.
And at that time there was acrime in it, but it wasn't
wasn't murder.
We weren't talking about murder.
It wasn't murder, right, right.
Cousin Marc (13:49):
Just because someone's unfaithful to their
wife and they go to a prostitutedoesn't make them a murderer.
Right, right, right.
Hannah (13:59):
And also he could have had sex with her.
Courtney (14:00):
Right.
Hannah (14:01):
Like it just happens to be that they never had sex.
Courtney (14:03):
I also believe that he he wasn't.
It doesn't seem like, from thereading that I had done, that he
often used vaginal sex.
It seemed like he was more oflike an oral sex.
Hannah (14:12):
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (14:14):
Yeah, then again, a lot of times it was from behind
, right, and that was how hegrabbed them.
So once he figured out that, ashe was choking them, the women
would scratch him, he would.
Then, once he got scratched, hewould actually clip their
fingernails.
Oh, he was tidy, so there wasno skin, but after he was
getting scratched he started touse a ligature Right, Just like
(14:38):
here.
He didn't have to get damagedand then have to explain
scratches and whatnot.
Hannah (14:43):
But that's like a logical progression for someone,
so it boggles my mind that hehis IQ was as low as it was.
Cousin Marc (14:51):
Yeah, I mean because the other thing he did
was he would go to bus stationsand grab care from the toilets
and plant it around.
He would grab cigarette butts,so they all thought he smoked
Right.
Courtney (15:06):
It almost makes me wonder if he was like a crime
buff or something he was likeinto the pamphlets from hotels
yeah and leave them to make itlook like he was a traveler or a
guest from that hotel, and thenthey'd be down that rabbit hole
looking for him and he's justlike at his house one street
down, just chilling and cory,you mentioned a son.
Hannah (15:24):
I believe he had a son.
He was he married.
Cousin Marc (15:27):
I believe it was math he was married once, right?
Courtney (15:30):
or was it twice, three times?
Oh jesus, oh, I missed.
I missed a wife somewhere inthere.
Cousin Marc (15:33):
Yeah, uh, the first one he married in 78 okay, oh,
okay so they divorced and Ithink I'm pretty sure they
divorced in 79.
Courtney (15:42):
I have a whole bunch of notes I was gonna say the
first one wasn't very long.
I remember that.
Cousin Marc (15:46):
It was two years.
So Matthew was not from twoyears.
Courtney (15:50):
No, I want to say Matthew was from his second.
Cousin Marc (15:52):
Yes, I believe so.
There was a couple of timesthat he had his son in the
vehicle when he went and pickedup a girl.
Hannah (15:58):
Yeah, they asked him in an interview would you have
killed your son, if he saw itand he said I don't think so.
He didn't say no, I don't thinkso.
He said he, if he had.
Courtney (16:14):
If his son saw something, he would have had to
kill him.
Oh, he did say my god, it'sridiculous.
How old was the kid?
Cousin Marc (16:16):
young he was not that old.
Oh yeah, the women would ask tosee his id.
So he'd pull his id, out hisname, and in his wallet would be
pictures of his son.
So it put the women at easebecause you know.
Courtney (16:30):
Oh, he's a dad.
The father's not going to doanything yeah.
Cousin Marc (16:33):
And then there were other times where his son
wasn't with him but he had toysin the car.
So you know, jeez, yeah, butsee, that's the thing you know,
he was so smart in evading thepolice.
Yeah, with all this littlethings that you know, you
(16:55):
probably never would havethought of.
Courtney (16:56):
Yeah, he got good at it because he wasn't doing just
one thing all the time.
He really like diversified whathe was doing along the way, but
they always knew he was.
I mean, they hypothesizedbefore they caught him that he
was just one person.
And even all the all theprostitutes at the time that
they were able to get you know,data from to to write a book I
think it was ann rules book.
It was like, yeah, you know, Ikind of thought about it when I
(17:17):
got in the car with somebody butthis is how I pay my bills and
so I didn't think they were the.
You know, I didn't think he wasthe killer and I'm like, how do
you just go off a hunch whenyou know this guy's out here
killing prostitutes?
And you're just like, I got inthe car with him but I didn't
think it was him, so it was fine, and I'm like, oh my gosh but
that's.
Cousin Marc (17:34):
But that's what it is.
You know, the monster's notgonna look like a monster right,
yeah, so how old was he when hestarted?
Well, he was born in 49, solate 20s when he started early
30s.
So he started pretty early.
He did His thing.
Was I wanted to kill as manyprostitutes as I possibly could,
mission-based, yeah, which iswhy I don't understand why he
(17:58):
doesn't get as much publicity asthe bigger ones.
Courtney (18:03):
It's true, because he had a lot of victims, his victim
count was very high.
It was very high.
Cousin Marc (18:08):
It was the highest in the U?
S at that time.
Courtney (18:12):
It was in the forties Forties.
Cousin Marc (18:14):
Yeah, I don't think anybody's.
I mean Pinkton, willie Pinktongross.
He was active at this time too.
Courtney (18:22):
That's true.
Yeah, that's true, yeah.
Cousin Marc (18:24):
And he was in Vancouver, so they were like
really close to each other atthe time.
Huh, yeah, and that was one ofthe things Ridgeway did.
Ridgeway would bring bringvictims to different places to
try to throw off the the trail,mm.
Hannah (18:39):
Yeah, pinkton.
Courtney (18:40):
Yeah, His name, just like he's one of those people.
And I have a weird thing aboutonly a few things when it comes
to serial killers, butcannibalism is one of my things.
And then Pinkton just gives methe skeeves, Cause I don't know
what.
I don't know.
How about necrophilia.
I mean, yeah, I don't love theidea of necrophilia, but I don't
know why cannibalism is likelike.
Cousin Marc (19:02):
I can't with cannibalism, that's well, that's
one of the things Ridgway did,after he dumped the first, and
then would dump the bodies offthe side of the road and whatnot
in what he called clusters.
Yeah, so he'd use the same dumpsite and you know there were
(19:25):
times where, if he didn't havethe time to go pick up a
prostitute, he'd go back tothese dump sites, visit and have
sex with the court.
Courtney (19:36):
Oh my God, and there was at least one, where it was
like this person was decomposing, like I'm not talking about,
like she was there fromyesterday, like some left out,
like she was there a long asstime and decomposing, and he was
like oh, my God.
Cousin Marc (19:51):
I finally had to stop when I had to spread the
bugs away.
Hannah (19:56):
Oh God, yep.
How's that waffle feeling inyour stomach right now?
Courtney (20:01):
I just had a waffle before we hopped on here.
I'm glad I'm not trying to eatthe waffle right now, but yeah,
yeah, he's definitely there.
You can see sometimes whereyou're like he's so calculated,
maybe there wasn't somethingwrong, like maybe he just had
bad urges.
And then you hear things likethat.
You're like, nope, there's gotto be something disconnected in
there, because who in theirright mind I mean humans are
(20:22):
sex-driven creatures?
But who in their right mind,like I don't have time to pick
up a prostitute today, I'm justgonna go find this dead body
with bugs on it.
Oh yeah, it was around thecorner back over there.
No disrespect, disrespect tothe victims.
I'm very sorry, that wasinsensitive, but just the
mentality of him is very like.
You think you've got him peggedand then you're like what the
(20:43):
fuck?
Oh no, that's why I saidthere's messed up.
And then there's this guy.
Like he's just got so much tohim.
Do like a full psychoanalysison all of this.
So is he?
Hannah (20:54):
still alive.
I mean, we can almost get halfthat we can't still talk to him
mark's like get the van, we'regoing road trip, road trip, wait
, where is he?
Courtney (21:04):
I don't know that answer.
Cousin Marc (21:05):
Uh, he's in um washington oh, washington state
okay, yeah, washington stateyeah, but again I'm gonna bring
up Bundy.
Courtney (21:15):
Bundy, that's number two 2618, Rob.
Cousin Marc (21:27):
When Bundy was incarcerated in Florida.
After the Florida killings thedetectives from Washington came
down and interviewed Bundy toget perspective on a psychopath
serial killer.
A psychopath serial killer.
And he told them you know thatthis guy is going to revisit his
clusters.
And he said if you find a freshkill you should stake it out
and see if he shows back up.
(21:47):
He did show back up.
They just didn't have the rightones when he did show up.
But then once there were toomany there he would pick another
spot and go to another one.
Courtney (21:59):
Well, bundy knew, because Bundy favored dumping
sites too.
He did.
Bundy knew because he had hisown favored spots.
So I'm sure he and it's funnytoo, because that's one of those
things where I can imagine, asan investigator or a police
officer, you're like, okay, I'mgetting this information and
let's consider the source of whoit's coming from but also like
they're kind of an expert intheir field, like if you've got
someone behind bars, like, yes,they're a criminal.
(22:19):
Yes, what they do is wrong, yes, they might need some kind of
psychotic medication and thingsbut they also aren't like right.
They are an expert in theirfield, so why would you not take
their opinion and at least gotry what do they have to?
Cousin Marc (22:32):
gain or lose right from being in there, like like
he was dead, somebody thatthinks that way right, exactly
that's what I mean because anormal brain doesn't think that
exactly right, exactly.
Courtney (22:43):
You just keep coming up with short straws.
Cousin Marc (22:44):
At that point yeah, or they do think that way, but
they were raised correctly andthey go yeah, this is wrong, you
know, let's not do that right,if I do that, I'll end up behind
bars and I don't look good inorange.
Courtney (22:56):
So exactly was?
Hannah (22:57):
the police actually interested at first in these
women that were dying because oftheir profession?
Because I know with picton theyweren't really interested at
first.
They're like all right, anotherprostitute we found.
Okay, like let's move on.
Were they like actuallyinterested?
Courtney (23:12):
in.
I didn't get the impressionthat the police were dismissive
of them.
Cousin Marc (23:16):
It started out real slow because they didn't like
any case, they didn't think theyhad a serial killer on them.
Right, right.
Courtney (23:24):
They were just like oh , a prostitute went missing,
that's not unheard of, that'syes.
She could have run away, shecould have started a new life,
all that same stuff.
Cousin Marc (23:32):
And that's the thing with prostitutes.
You know they're adults, theycan go off the grid for as long
as they want.
It doesn't mean they're dead,right.
It doesn't mean they're missing.
They could have just went south.
Courtney (23:43):
And three-quarters of the time they're not using their
real identity, which makes iteven harder.
Cousin Marc (23:46):
Because the people who are.
Courtney (23:47):
You know?
Even the pimp might bereporting.
Okay, hannah is missing, butlike, how do we know?
Hannah is her real name.
She could be using an alias.
Hannah (23:54):
Right, and then you got the human trafficking piece too.
Courtney (23:56):
Right.
Hannah (23:56):
Their bodies can be moved wherever they want Right
Because to pimps and everybodyelse.
They're a piece of property andfree will.
Yeah, I could just be like.
You know what I'm all done withthis.
Courtney (24:04):
I'm just going to vanish, right.
So that's always a the right tobe able to open the case.
However, when it's an adult andthey're like well, there's no
foul play.
That person is allowed to justdisappear.
You and I are both allowed tojust say you know what?
Fuck this place.
Hannah (24:20):
I'm out and just get up and leave our life and we're
free Roman adults.
Courtney (24:23):
We're allowed to do that, but we lose so much
valuable time because of thathuman right, which is both a
blessing and kind of in a curse,I guess.
Hannah (24:32):
Especially when you have people that, like I, I feel
like I know you right.
If me and Britain were to go tothe police like no, you
understand, like Courtney had abusiness here, she has x, y and
z or she's not gonna go anywhereand they're like well, she's an
adult like you know my patterns, but they still wouldn't take
your word for it, exactly.
Courtney (24:47):
I mean it's unfortunate, but people will be
like oh well, maybe the personjust doesn't want to talk to you
and you're like like I mean,yeah, I guess, but it's a tough
spot, yep.
Cousin Marc (24:56):
But that happens in every single case.
Yeah, yep, I listened to onepodcast called the Teacher's Pet
, and the mother of two justdisappeared and everybody there
said there's no way this woman'sleaving her two kids.
Right Her two kids were herlife.
Right, there's no way.
Courtney (25:21):
And kids were her life right, there's no way.
And the police are like whatyou want me to do?
Yeah, exactly, and it's sadbecause I I see both sides of
that.
I see like, yeah, a human, ahuman adult, has the right to
just pick up and leave, and wedon't always know everything
about someone just because wethink we do, and I understand
that.
But I also feel like how manycases could we solve if we
didn't do that?
Yeah, like, honestly, if I evergo quote, unquote, missing, and
I'm just like pissed at ally'all and someone comes up to me
and they're like hey, yourfriends are really concerned for
you.
I'm gonna be like, first of all, I'm fine and tell them I said
fuck themselves.
(25:41):
Like, but also thank them forcaring about me.
Like I'm gonna call hannah andbe like I hate you.
We really have to do that.
But at the same time, I wouldbe like okay, but hannah cares
about me.
She was worried.
Yeah, I'll always be worried.
Yeah, she stalks my locationconstantly.
She's like hey, I see that it's6 pm.
Why are you in East Hartford?
Why are you not home yet?
(26:01):
Why aren't you home?
When are you coming home?
Hannah (26:07):
I don't know if anyone has your location, Mark, but A
couple do, but they don't use it.
Cousin Marc (26:16):
I feel like I always like say that on here
because I'm like don't target me.
People know where I am.
I know where you are.
I got a lot of people knowwhere I am.
I have my dad's location on myphone.
That's right here.
If something happens, I knowwhere I can find him.
Courtney (26:22):
Exactly, I usually just take the phones and just
add the location, becauseeveryone's like tech support, I
need help and I'm like, ooh,there you are.
Cousin Marc (26:37):
You're at the Walmart, I got you.
I got to look at something theynever know, we'll never notice.
But anyways, gary did serve inthe Navy, oh, he was military.
The first time and he saw.
He saw action in Vietnam andalso saw action in the
Philippines with the prostitutesthere.
Courtney (26:54):
Contributing factors.
He proceeded to pick up, Checkwhen he proceeded to pick up
Check, check.
Cousin Marc (26:57):
He proceeded to pick up STDs.
Oh, he was married to his firstwife, oh, you can see why that
one didn't last long.
Yeah, there's another issuewith Ridgway being mad at women.
You know for getting STDs, buthe never killed anyone over
there.
Courtney (27:16):
That we're aware of.
Cousin Marc (27:18):
Well, not in a military aspect.
Hannah (27:21):
Okay, oh, oh, oh, like action.
Cousin Marc (27:25):
He didn't kill anybody as in battle, but he
didn't we don't know if he didor not, but he didn't kill any
of the prostitutes that he waswith over there.
Hannah (27:32):
Okay, okay, I'm sorry.
Every time I hear vietnam, Ijust want to go vietnam.
Yeah right, what movie is that?
Cousin Marc (27:41):
I have no idea, no, that was uh.
Hannah (27:44):
Good morning vietnam yes , sorry, just every time I want
to say that, but anyways, it wasgood morning.
Courtney (27:53):
Vietnam.
I want to say the Office alsodoes that at one point.
They do yeah.
Cousin Marc (27:59):
Ridgway's first wife, while he was overseas, was
cheating on him over herebecause she was by herself.
Courtney (28:05):
In hindsight.
Good choice, buddy, Pat theback on that.
Cousin Marc (28:09):
one Good for her on that one, but again, it's just
another thing that solidifieshis Evilness in women Anger
towards women.
Courtney (28:18):
And he never hurt any of his wives, correct?
Cousin Marc (28:22):
No, I believe it was his second wife.
They went out somewhere and hesnuck around the car.
Courtney (28:29):
Yeah, oh yeah, I remember that and put her in a
chokehold.
Oh, the first wife, the secondwife, second wife, I think it
was the second wife Didn't hetry to say like that wasn't me.
There was a random man here,exactly, he tried to gaslight
her.
Cousin Marc (28:43):
He ran around the other side of the car and she's,
you know, choked out when shelet her go and he got on the
other side.
She was screaming, so he ranaround the other.
He pretended he wasn't there.
What's the matter?
She knew it was him, but shekept denying it.
Hannah (28:58):
Was she the one that produced the child?
Yeah, I believe so.
The second one okay, I believethat was the mother of his child
.
Courtney (29:02):
Yeah, I wonder if I can.
Cousin Marc (29:04):
That was the thing All of his ex-wives and
ex-girlfriends said.
He always wanted sex all thetime, and he wanted a lot of it
outdoors.
Courtney (29:21):
Yes, and he wanted, he wanted a lot of it outdoors,
yes, outdoors but.
Hannah (29:23):
But in 73 I showed a picture I don't know.
Courtney (29:24):
At least ted bundy was a good old guy there oh so is
he on death row or no?
No no he did a plea bargain andand admitted to all of them so
he wouldn't get the deathpenalty and it looks like his
marriages were claudia craigbarrows 1970 to 1972, then
marcia laureen brown 1973 to1981 and finally judith lorraine
(29:51):
lynch 1988 to 2002 yes, yes, hewas still with Judith when he
was arrested.
Yes, yeah, yeah, because 2002is far after he was.
Cousin Marc (30:03):
Well, he was arrested in the end of 2001.
That was when they finallycaught him.
He's 75.
His killings went down after hemarried Judith, because Judith
loved him and showed him thelove, unlike, unlike the other
two where the first one thefirst one cheated on him and
(30:27):
then Marsha, his second wife,ended up having gastric bypass.
Yes, so she got herself skinnyand he got.
He was afraid that she wasgonna cheat on him.
Courtney (30:36):
yeah, he was like resentful that other men were
gonna look at her because hedidn't want her.
I think in his mind to be dirtylike, yeah, now other men are
gonna want you.
Hannah (30:45):
They're gonna think about you impurely and so the
third wife is like kinks, bekinks, and is like I'll have sex
with you outside the backyard,they all commented on that.
Courtney (30:54):
We're like, yeah, he always wanted to have sex like
multiple times a day wassomething I remember them saying
and he always wanted to havesex violently and outside, like
he could never just be like, oh,like like a regular couple,
like let's have like lazymornings, like he knew he needed
it to be like outside andviolent and like multiple times
a day.
Cousin Marc (31:10):
Well, when you go back to it, that is normal for
him.
Courtney (31:14):
That's true, yeah, because of the violence from his
mom, his brain is normal.
Hannah (31:18):
So did.
Did he like it when they werestill?
Because I know some killers arelike I need you to be
completely still like a corpse,Bundy.
Cousin Marc (31:26):
Yeah, that's true, bundy, bundy.
Bundy liked them acting deadGross yeah.
Hannah (31:39):
But again, it's not even noon.
Courtney (31:40):
Yet we're like, yeah, necrophilia, and I will say so.
I'm looking at a huge, longlist of all of his victims,
which is super sad and andhonestly, my heart breaks
looking at this list.
Putting names to it really justbrings it home makes it worse,
yeah but I'm looking at most ofthe ages and, as of youngest, 16
, 15, the oldest I've seen sofar is 31.
Cousin Marc (31:58):
There's only been one person 30 or over way down
the bottom you're gonna have tosee the 36 patricia there's a
okay.
Courtney (32:05):
So there was three that were over 30 and everybody
else was mid-20s and below.
You're right, because he, martareeves, was 36 and Patricia Ann
Yellow Robe was 38.
Cousin Marc (32:16):
Yeah, but he also had one that he killed, that he
knew, and she was a waitress.
Which is interesting, shewasn't a prostitute.
Courtney (32:26):
Doesn't fit.
Unless he, like maybe hadfantasized about her or he had
seen something, he made amistake.
Cousin Marc (32:31):
He made a mistake and he admits to that.
And after he killed her he laiddown next to her and cuddled
her and cried because he knew hescrewed up.
Courtney (32:42):
But see, that's where the behaviorist in me is so
fascinated, because thesemission based serial killers
really believe in their missionto the core.
They believe what they're doingis for a greater purpose.
They do believe it's right,because that's you can't tell me
.
That's a person who doesn'tfeel empathy and who doesn't
feel sorry he did.
In our morals we should havefelt bad the whole time, but he,
he got so upset because he madea mistake that he does
(33:04):
understand empathy and he doesunderstand how to feel for
somebody else.
So it's like that's where it'sfascinating to me on the emotion
side social side, social,emotionally, like he does know.
Cousin Marc (33:23):
He just believed in his mission more than you know
anything else.
Well, when he married hissecond wife, masha, he became
very religious.
He became very religious.
You know he, he was being thefamily man.
You know, going to churchcrying during sermons.
Courtney (33:31):
Part of me wants to go mania question mark, because
like hyper religiousness is likea huge thing in mania makes me
wonder about like a bpd or abipolar oh, that was.
Cousin Marc (33:41):
That was dennis raider btk.
He was the head guy at thechurch that he was, that he was
part of oh, doesn't that makeyour skin crawl.
Courtney (33:49):
There's something about being in a religious power
of position and also being aserial killer that just makes my
.
All those times I was forced togo to catechism, I'm like guys.
You don't know how close I wasto death.
Hannah (34:00):
Dude, we still need to do a whole episode on religious
trauma because you know, becauseof Mark I don't know if he
knows about me but I grew upextremely religious.
So my school, my private school, was actually attached to the
church that I went to.
So I was there six days a week,whether it was for school or
(34:20):
church on Sunday, I was thereevery day except Saturday.
And come to find out one of theyouth pastors.
Courtney (34:23):
That was part of coaching the volleyball team.
Hannah (34:23):
He was in Bible classes with us.
He was there on Sundays forclasses.
He moved to Florida for thisgreat principal job at this
private Christian school.
He gets arrested for sexuallyabusing children and that man
was like in my life, like, andmy mom actually had to come to
us and be like did he doanything to you guys like that I
(34:45):
don't know about.
Like it's disgusting to me thatthese people are just they're
everywhere.
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (34:51):
Yeah, but then that goes with nature.
Yeah, yeah, but then that thatgoes with nature.
Yeah, this guy is surrounded bykids 10 hours a day.
The opportunity is there yeah,you know the opportunity base
that's, that's the opportunityand if and if you're, if you can
be a good judge of character,you can.
(35:12):
You can figure out the weakones and strong ones and then
you exploit them.
Or even not, if you're a goodjudge of character, you can
figure out the weak ones andstrong ones and then you exploit
them.
Courtney (35:17):
Or even not if you're a good judge of character.
I mean, some of these peopleare in guidance counselor
positions.
These kids are being forced tocome and tell you all the things
that are going wrong with them.
You don't even have to be goodat reading kids.
You're literally like oh, thiskid just came in and told me he
gets beaten at home If I makehim feel special and give him
some things, it's.
It's so hard because childrenare so impressionable.
Like you said earlier, it is soeasy to find what they want.
(35:38):
We behaviorists you talk aboutturning the behavior on and
turning it off.
You know how to reinforce thesekids and it's.
It really is not a skill thateverybody should have.
It's, uh, use the wrong way.
Hannah (35:48):
It's very gross and just think about, like danny croto,
like when I did two episodesover a year ago at this point
that was a rough one, his familywas like oh, a Catholic priest.
There can be nothing wrong,danny.
You need to be with this priestmore.
He can help shape you into awonderful man.
Yes, and to the point where,like he got picked up by this
priest at school and he wascrying and his friends remember
(36:09):
he's like I don't want to gowith him, but like yeah, yeah,
the parents were like no, it's apriest, it's a man of god, he,
they would never do anything mychild.
Courtney (36:16):
And that fucking priest murdered him and I think,
fortunately, as a society,we're coming away from like,
like, I think the and obviouslyfor what I do, for work, I work
with a lot of families.
I work with a lot of parents.
I feel like I see a lot moreparents who are like, yeah, no,
if I I can't go do that becauseI have to be home with my kid.
And someone will say like, oh,why don't you get a babysitter?
And I've seen moms be like, uh,because I don't trust anybody
(36:37):
with my kid.
Yeah, I'm not gonna trust asingle person.
Like people will say what aboutyour sister?
Well, you know what, I don'ttrust her.
And just because she's mysister doesn't mean I should
trust her to watch my kids.
That's a very personal thing.
I like that we're coming aroundto the idea of like we're just
gonna pay that random guy downthe street to hang out with our
kids.
That's kind of weird when youthink about it.
Hannah (36:54):
Billy Bob next door is a really nice guy when he mows
his lawn.
Courtney (36:57):
Like that doesn't mean shit.
Exactly.
Cousin Marc (36:59):
Exactly.
Well, that was the babysitter.
Courtney (37:01):
Yeah, tony Costa.
Cousin Marc (37:02):
Yeah, out on the Cape.
Courtney (37:03):
Yeah, yeah, I did an episode on him.
Cousin Marc (37:05):
Yeah, yeah.
They would always hang aroundwith him out on the dump this
and that, and then the nextthing you know, he's murdering
people from the hotel that hewas working at.
Courtney (37:16):
The good thing about Tony?
Well, not a good thing thething about Tony is he had a
very specific type of.
He murdered women he was inrelationships with or women who
were around a certain age.
So the kids were probablyalways safe with Tony, because I
really don't believe.
After I've read, like I think,three books on him now, I really
don't get the impression thathe ever would have like.
I do believe he, as far astaking care of children was, I
(37:36):
do believe he was a good guy.
He enjoyed spending time withthem.
He took them to do things.
Maybe he shouldn't have takenthem to a place where he was
growing his marijuana andburying his bodies, but I think
they were always.
I think those girls were alwayssafe with him.
Cousin Marc (37:47):
To be honest, yeah, he's bought him for ice cream.
Courtney (37:49):
I'm surprised he didn't try to kill their mom
though, because she fit theprofile.
Cousin Marc (37:53):
She fit the profile hard but see, that's the thing
with children and, like you said, hannah, you know that's a
priest, you go, go with them.
The priest is yeah, whenchildren are saying something,
the parents just brush it off oh, they're lying, oh, they're
just kids.
Courtney (38:08):
Yeah, you're looking for attention with?
Cousin Marc (38:10):
cops yep, some cops use abuse their authority and
some don't.
But it's like how do youdifferentiate?
Courtney (38:19):
right, right.
Cousin Marc (38:20):
That's the problem you can't tell which adult is
being mean to the child, becauseyou're going to believe the
adult before you believe thechild.
Right, right, which is sad insociety, but anyways oh man,
tangent, that's, okay.
That was one of the otherthings that I had found when I
was doing my research for him.
(38:40):
I never knew how they gotfingerprints off of a body that
was submerged in water for solong.
Courtney (38:47):
Right, and how would they be reliable?
I guess is the word.
Hannah (38:50):
Oh yeah, this is interesting.
Cousin Marc (38:52):
What the coroners would do was they would cut the
wrist and pull the skin off likea glove and they'd wear it
right and wear it to get thefingerprints, because that was
the easiest way to firm the skinup after it's been waterlogged.
Courtney (39:09):
so that they could get a viable print.
But that's so interesting.
I don't know what it is aboutdismembering bodies that makes
my body feel uncomfortable.
Hannah (39:18):
Well, you're supposed to feel uncomfortable.
Courtney (39:19):
Something about wearing people's skin and
cannibalism.
There's just something aboutthose two.
Well, you're not wearing it forfun, but they're still wearing
it.
Hannah (39:26):
They're like let me put it on.
Cousin Marc (39:27):
You said like gloves.
That makes me uncomfortable.
You at least have a rubberglove on in between?
I would hope so.
You gotta use some kind ofprotection there.
Courtney (39:37):
No gloves, no love, that's exactly what I was gonna
say, Mark.
I was like I'm gonna keep itclean.
I don't know how cool Mark iswith that.
Oh, no, Mark's cool with that.
Hannah (39:45):
Mark is cool with that.
You should be his brother, Matt.
You can't offend me.
Courtney (39:49):
I think we should make t-shirts that say no glove, no
love, with a cousin mark emblemon it and it has just like a
skin hand.
I'm gonna ask rob he can createone.
It's like the adams family handyes, but it says no glove no
love, that's it, cousin markdash, cousin, today's date what
2 2, 25.
(40:09):
I love it, let's do it.
Cousin Marc (40:13):
One of the things gary ridgeway talked about was
having a polygraph.
Courtney (40:18):
He ended up passing.
Cousin Marc (40:20):
So they looked at Ridgeway and they asked him.
They said how did you pass thepolygraph?
He says, and I quote, and hereI am quoting.
He says well, I just sat thereand I relaxed and I answered
their questions.
Courtney (40:34):
Yeah, well, because it does go off of, I think, like
your pulse and things like thatyeah your heart rate when you're
lying to somebody.
You're like when we were lyingto Rob about a surprise party.
He's like we're going to go dothis and we're like okay.
Cousin Marc (40:45):
Yeah, and your heart starts to and we're
sweating, yeah.
But if you go into it andyou're like take a Xanax.
I could pass the polygraph thatway.
But this is why polygraphsaren't allowed in court cases.
Courtney (40:57):
Right right, because they don't really tell you
anything, because you canmanipulate them.
Yeah, it's interesting also,though he was not intelligent
according to his IQ score, butyet he was intelligent enough to
fake the polygraph.
Cousin Marc (41:08):
They're psychopaths .
I like that.
Yeah, we're so psychopaths bothof them, we're so past both of
them.
But once they started to getinto DNA and everything, they
had an article of clothing fromthe first murder victim that
they had saved, that piece ofclothing that they had had spray
paint particles on it he was apainter.
But they never.
They, you know, back then theycouldn't analyze it and figure
(41:32):
out what it was.
They could just see little tinyred spots.
So now fast forward to DNAprocesses.
They were able to figure outthat it was spray paint for
vehicles and they were able tonarrow it down because Ridgeway
worked at the Kenworth TruckingCompany, spray painting the new
(41:52):
vehicles, spray painting the newvehicles, which was one of the
ways that they caught himbecause of having it on his
clothes and passing it off.
As you know, touch DNA.
So they were able to.
Courtney (42:07):
They had to get sharp with his teeth, yeah.
Cousin Marc (42:10):
And they ended up picking him up at work.
That was where they grabbed him.
Courtney (42:14):
Hard to say.
You don't work there whenyou're there, huh.
Cousin Marc (42:17):
Yeah, and it was funny because he was so strange
that his co-workers werestarting to name him the Green
River Killer.
Courtney (42:28):
Imagine the irony.
Cousin Marc (42:30):
They were trying to goof on him, not knowing that
it was really him yeah, notknowing how close to death they
were for saying that to a manwho'd killed.
Courtney (42:38):
he was actually 49, I think it was 48, but a Jane Doe,
so 49, I think.
Cousin Marc (42:43):
Yeah, in 2010,.
Hannah (42:44):
they found another victim that they attributed to
him, so he ended up admitting tothat one too 48 life counts,
life sentences, yeah, so I meanhe'll be out soon you know, it's
like a thousand years orsomething like that.
Cousin Marc (42:58):
Yeah, but he had to plead.
He had to plead guilty to allof them to avoid the death
penalty.
Courtney (43:05):
But like.
Why would you want to stayalive to like it makes me wonder
how much more there is for themto.
Hannah (43:10):
Does he have parole, or is that without parole?
That's without parole.
No, no, no, no, he did not getparole.
Cousin Marc (43:16):
He's serving 49 life sentences, so there's no
parole.
Courtney (43:21):
There's no good behavior situation here.
Cousin Marc (43:23):
There is no star chart for Gary Ridgeway.
Courtney (43:26):
All right, I'm going to stop our recording here.
Wait, should we say goodbye?
Oh, I'm not going to stop ourrecording here.
Hannah (43:33):
I feel like we should say goodbye to him.
He spent like two and a halfhours on you.
Courtney (43:37):
Well, I was going to say goodbye to him.
I wasn't just going to presslog off on him, I was just going
to hit stop recording.
But shouldn't we say goodbye tohim though on air?
Okay, sure, go ahead, hannah,lead us on your goodbye.
Should we sing him a song?
Hannah (43:48):
Goodbye, so long.
Courtney (43:51):
I don't know the words to this one.
Hannah (43:54):
This is getting really weird Goodbye.
Courtney (43:56):
Welcome to us.
We don't know how to start orend a conversation.
Bye.
Thank you, Cousin Mark.
We appreciate you coming on anddoing your thing and you're
obviously welcome back wheneveryou have more things you want to
yap about.
Cousin Marc (44:06):
Yes, always All right, that's awesome.
I would love to be back.
You guys just let me know andwe'll figure out a time and
we'll banter.
Courtney (44:15):
Sounds perfect, banter .
Hannah (44:17):
And don't forget we have a group chat, so we need to
hear from you, because I'mworking on ladies.
Courtney (44:22):
Of course.
Alright, now I'm going to pressBye.
Hannah (44:27):
Thanks for listening.
Today, wicked Wanderings ishosted by me, hannah, and
co-hosted by me, courtney, andit's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick
.
Music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
(44:48):
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
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