February 19, 2025 • 17 mins
Exploring a local murder case from 1954, the episode delves into the disturbing story of Kenneth Chapin, who killed two neighbors, one being a young babysitter. Focusing on the complexities of mental health and the questions surrounding his motive, the hosts engage listeners in a critical examination of understanding violence in our communities.
• Background on the Springfield case and listener inspiration
• Discussion of the book "A Thread of Evidence"
• Insights into Kenneth Chapin's mental health and the murders
• The tragic deaths of Lynn Ann Smith and Stephen Goldberg
• The complications of insanity and sanity in the trial
• Reflections on the emotional impact on the community
• Call for readers and listeners to engage with local stories
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
did you ever have like a booger in your nose?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
you just want to pick , but like it's not socially
appropriate to pick it evenworse when it's a hard booger
yes, and you know it's in there,because you can, like, feel it
on the outside of your nostril,and then you're like, could I
just go to the bathroom realquick, pick this shit out and
then wash my hands.
I do think that a lot.
Actually.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
Girl okay, girl Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is Wicked Wanderings.
(01:03):
Okay, so I have an idea for anepisode.
Hannah, that is actually not myown episode, okay, bear with me
.
So we're always asking youlovely folks to text us, tell us
if you want to hear aboutsomething.
And so I apologize because thiswas December 8th, but we did
get a fan mail in and I'm goingto read it so everybody knows,
kind of, where I got the ideafor the episode.
So the fan mail says hey, sorryit's taken me so long to text.
(01:27):
Y'all have been my latest bingeshow and I'm so excited to find
something local.
I'm from Agawam.
Thank you, agawam.
Shout out yeah, we're inSpringfield.
I was wondering have you heardof the case from Springfield on
Daviston off Sumner Ave, triggerwarning that kids are involved,
where an 18 or 19 year oldyoung man with schizophrenia
(01:47):
murdered two of his neighbors?
It happened in 1954 and there'sa book called a threat of
evidence by joanne connor's wadewho tells the story as someone
who lived in the neighborhood atthat time.
This is a forewarning given inthe text, so it is not our
opinion, but someone who wrotein, who is anonymous, wrote in
forewarning.
I know you love your books andthis is not the most well
written.
With all due respect, you'llknow what I mean if you choose
to read it, but it's worth thestory.
(02:08):
So can say I went on amazon, Ibought the book, I read the book
and I will say it seems likethe author is a local author who
is more independent, and orwhen she wrote the book at that
time she was more independent someaning like she had
self-published and things likethat.
So it is a little bit differentif you are an avid literature
lover.
It's not maybe the bestliterature review, but it does
(02:31):
weave an interesting story andit is based off of a true story.
So if you haven't read the bookwhich probably most people have
not I want to say when I was ongoodreads, one of three people
who shelved it on goodreads forthe year was me.
So it's definitely not a verywell-known or popular book, but
it is based off of a true story.
(02:53):
And again, it was located inSpringfield, mass.
I think for myself, one of thehardest parts about the read was
being so local to the area forSpringfield.
I knew what they were talkingabout, but the author chose to
use names that were like justbarely off, like one letter off
use street names that were likeone barely off.
What I will say that I did findentertaining was the big e made
(03:14):
a very, very short, notablemention.
So the date of the murders wasseptember 25th and the date of
the arrest was october 8th.
So we're right in biggieterritory, right?
So the big e, if you'refamiliar with springfield, did
make a mention and I did thinkit was a little entertaining
that she didn't choose to nameit something different.
So like everything, like evenspringfield was called something
(03:36):
else in the book.
So if you're native tospringfield, reading the book
might be just like a keep it inthe back of your head like these
things are gonna sound.
I think she called it likespringdale or something like.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It's very, it's so close that you're like a
springfield so do you know whythe author decided to make it
quote-unquote fiction and notjust have it be a biography?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I, I don't actually.
My hunch is that because shewas local, she didn't want maybe
the media coverage of it.
I will also say it's not my cupof tea, like if I'm gonna read
something that's non-fiction, Iwant to read non-fiction, yeah,
you know.
So I was a little bit outsideof my genre too, which presented
(04:15):
its own personal challengesright right obviously not on the
author.
What I did think was interestingwas the author who wrote the
book was actually 10 years oldand lived only a few blocks away
at the time of of the murder.
Okay, so I did feel like it wasa nice connection that the
author had like clearly takenthat experience into adulthood
and said like okay, thishappened.
(04:35):
I remember hearing about it asa kid and I think your mom
actually, on one episode, wastalking about uh, danny croto
yeah exactly, so I think it doesadd a different element.
Oh, absolutely absolutely so.
The killer and I'm going totalk in their actual name.
So I just used a thread ofevidence as my kind of starting
point, and then I did have to doa lot of my own research.
(04:56):
So I apologize, wanderers, thisepisode is a.
It was a little bit hard towrite.
I'm not gonna lie to you, justbecause all of the names and
things were like slightly off inthe book.
So I had a really hard timewith my own adhd brain trying to
like keep straight in my headwhat exactly people's real name
was, as opposed to their fictionbased name.
So the killer's name waskenneth chapin.
He was 18 years old at the timeof the murder and when he was
(05:19):
arrested, chapin, is thatc-h-a-p-I-N Correct?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
And his victims were Lynn Ann Smith, who was 14 years
old at the time, and thenStephen Goldberg, who sadly, was
four years old at the time.
Four, so I will put a triggerwarning on and just say that it
does involve children.
If that's something that's alittle bit more challenging for
you to hear, or if it's a hardstop for you, then I would just
(05:47):
a very violent crime.
The book took on a role whereyou were getting a lot of Lynn's
character, so the young femalewho was killed where she was
like going to go babysit, andyou were kind of hearing a lot
more of her perspective.
So from my understanding, whathappened between the book and
research is that Lynn wasbabysitting at the time.
This gentleman broke into thehouse and he stabbed her with a
(06:10):
bayonet 38 times.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So oh, yeah at meeting a bayonet.
I for some reason can't picturea bayonet in my mind.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah it's kind of like a.
I know they put each other inthe land of guns, I believe.
Oh so, yes, okay, I want to sayin this, like end wonders this
is from the book it seemed likehe killed the babysitter as
probably his initial target orwho he wanted, and then the
little boy had actually come outof the room and seen what was
happening so what's reallyinteresting and not interesting
(06:41):
in a positive way is that therewere two little boys at the
house that she was babysittingand he did not kill the other
little boy.
So this family comes home andone little boy is okay, one is
dead and so is the babysitter,god.
So that was in September of1954 that all that happened,
okay, so he was obviously caughtand he was sentenced to death
(07:05):
in 1955.
But he actually died in prisonin 1996 of a heart attack.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So they kept having to put off the death sentence.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, so they had a really hard time.
From my understanding aboutkind of where his mental health
was.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
So he was pronounced sane enough for trial by several
mass psychiatrists andobviously his attorney had kind
of continued to keep saying likehey, like what, yeah, what can
we find?
And what I think is interestingis he never really provided a
rationale for the murders.
Obviously, his attorney hadkind of continued to keep saying
like hey, like what, yeah, whatcan we find?
And what I think is interestingis he never really provided a
rationale for the murders.
So like he at some point, youknow, came around and he didn't
(07:43):
deny it, but he wasn't reallygiving you like a reason for why
.
And I do think again, thediscrepancy between the book and
reality is really hard todistinguish.
Because in the book there was alot of like for the obvious plot
piece of it there.
Because in the book there was alot of like for the obvious
plot piece of it.
There was a lot ofhypothesizing and like leading
people to think things.
But it really boils down to hedidn't say why he did it.
He really remained completelyemotionless from the beginning
to the end of all of theprocedure.
A little bit haunting seemedtotally random, left me thinking
(08:06):
like did he hurt other peopleor was this going to be the
beginning of something?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
just he was only going on death row for those two
murders correct.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, and what's even more messed up is and kind of
like a fun fact, he was actuallya pallbearer at lynn's funeral
days after he killed her,because he actually knew her
from school.
Well shit, did they say whatfuneral home?
I don't think so.
I didn't come across that.
But two weeks after the murderhe confessed and he did talk to
(08:35):
police and he had quoted andhere I am quoting she screamed
and I stabbed her.
It was kind of like this is whathappened she screamed and I
stabbed her.
Do you mind telling me thewhole?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
name for Lynn again.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Lynn, l-y-n-n.
Ann Smith.
He just kind of stuck to I haveno reason for these murders.
I didn't.
I didn't have a rationale,which is very interesting.
He was arrested on October 8thof 1954.
And what year again was this?
The murders were 1954.
It was a pretty quick situationbecause September 25th was the
murder and then October 8th ofthe same year is when he was
(09:06):
arrested.
So it was originally thesentence to death in 1955, and
then they had changed it to lifein prison without parole in
1956.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
The only reason why you want to know, because my
family is very much involvedwith funeral homes and so okay,
so her burial is at HillcrestPark Cemetery in Springfield.
Well, shit, I have pictures ofher.
Oh, I know.
Damn.
Yeah, we could literally seelike where her burial site is.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Absolutely yeah, we could literally see like where
her burial site is?
Absolutely we could.
I think what was like the most,like the biggest take home for
me with this, and kind of what Ifound to be the most
fascinating that I think isactually gonna kind of entice me
to go down a different rabbithole of research was really what
constitutes insanity and in atrial and kind of, how do they
(09:52):
decide that?
Because they kind of continueto keep finding different people
to try to assess him and say,hey, is he insane?
Eight massachusettspsychiatrists pronounced him
sane, but one person did say, Ibelieve, that he is in the early
stages of schizophrenia.
They tried to prove that he wasa victim of epilepsy, even
though it's not necessarilyrelated to insanity.
(10:13):
They tried to talk about allsorts of different things that
could have been the reason why Imean it comes down to for me,
the two big pieces that I tookaway from what is a very scary
case is just there's so muchinformation that's not there.
We don't have a confession fromhim saying why he did it.
Those poor families right,those poor families are just
like who is this man and why didhe do this?
(10:40):
And then the insanity part liketo be to be declared sane by
eight psychiatrists, I mean, andonly one of them was like, yeah
, maybe he had the early stagesof schizophrenia this is here,
it's a rabbit hole.
It's certainly a rabbit hole,because now I'm going through
this all this stuff on my phone.
I have to say one of my biggestthings and obviously you guys
know that when we do an episodehere, we research them and we
read the book and we give youguys thorough information.
I feel like I was so stuck withthis one but I wanted to finish
(11:04):
it because obviously I read thebook and it was a
recommendation from a wandererand the case is certainly
complex in its own way, but Ifelt like as much as it was
super complex, there was justnot a lot to find on it yeah,
because I was even hoping thatthe republican at some point
because I feel like therepublicans been around for a
while would be able to give usinformation.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I'm not seeing any republican articles on it and
that's obviously.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I looked for that one too and I I mean I you can find
things on like random places,but then I'm, then I don't trust
the information.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's kind of my problem.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I mean, I think we should go to hillcrest cemetery
because I think we might have toat least pair respects and yeah
, like we did with danny croto.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I mean, I think that's really important,
especially when we have theselocal cases.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I did find this picture of him?
I did find that, and he wasjust so young I mean, he was
just he was just so young.
You can buy that picture if youwant what?
Yeah, I guess that website youcan buy it on, which seems kind
of terrible.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't love that.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I don't know.
I think we need to go tohillcrest cemetery.
I think we need because I meanthey have it all mapped out and
just I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I think it's important for these local
victims what I do have to sayand I buried the lead on this
one is that everyone, when Ipicked I picked up the book I
was like, why, a thread ofevidence?
His mother actually gave himaway with a thread.
I want to say it was crochet, apiece of crocheted thread.
That was when they were in thehome.
It was what was found at thescene and in his home, because
(12:28):
his mom was a crafter.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Oh God, mm-hmm, so I'm sorry.
Wait, he was adopted.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
No, was a crafter, oh god so.
So I'm sorry.
Wait, he was adopted.
No, you said his mom gave himaway.
His mom gave him away as themurderer.
Oh, his mom is the reason hewas caught, because her craft
room.
He had used some part of thethread on something that I'm
sorry, I thought you meant like.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I was like no, no, no .
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So when they were doing the neighborhood canvas
and they had checked everybodyout, they were like wait a
second.
And and I think they out, theywere like wait a second and I
think they would have.
He would have gotten away withit, but one of the detectives
from the story again, obviously,I'm kind of adding on this.
It seemed like probably basedoff of the truth very closely.
The detective was kind of likeoh, wait a minute, that's a
crafting room.
(13:09):
We found this thread.
Where did that come from?
Because the thread didn't matchanything in the victim's home
and that's where they were likewhere did this come from?
And so when they showed it toher to be like, hey, do you
recognize?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
this thread.
She was like yeah, sure, I havethat and she could show like oh
god this is where I have thisinteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, and they arrested him at school.
He was arrested at the highschool.
What high school, I don't thinkthey said.
I think they left it as thehigh school that he attended.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
There has to be more to this.
It's just too many missingpieces.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And then every article you can find just always
ends with when we asked him whyhe did it, he just said I don't
know why I did it.
I don't know why I did it, Idon't know why I did it Crime of
update.
I feel like here at WickedWanderings we like to dissect
the why.
So it's really hard for me,like this one did linger with me
because I was like, why, why,why, we want that rationale so
badly and you can't always findit Right.
(14:06):
So I mean I'm happy that ourwanderer pointed it out to us.
Shout wanderer, pointed it outto us.
Shout out, wanderer, I'm sorryI'm calling you wanderer, but
they're anonymous texts.
So if you have an article or astory or a person you think
you've heard about, definitelysend it our way.
Um, we love learning more andcertainly it was shocking to me
that this was right here inspringfield and I didn't know
(14:27):
about the book.
But it is hard to find localbooks too, I find about true
crime, like even if you go tobarnes and noble or whatever.
This book wasn't at barnes andnoble, I checked yeah I'm
assuming because it's a smallerread and maybe it wasn't but we
appreciate the you know therecommendations we really do and
if anybody has more information, uh, or if you can narrow
something down further than Idid.
Please reach out to me if youknow me privately, or or through
(14:49):
the the texting on our podcast,because I am stumped by this
one completely.
But yeah, threat of evidence.
I would say, if you areinterested in this case reading
the book as a starting point, orif you started to do your own
research and then want to readit, I would have to caution you
that if it is a book that you'rejust reading for enjoyment and
just for a story, that maybe youwould take a pass.
(15:11):
But if you're looking atresearch for this particular
case, it will definitely get yougoing on the right side, and no
disrespect to the author.
Obviously, you know just not mycup of tea.
Not every book can be your owncup of tea, but it'll definitely
get you started on this case,if that's what you're looking
for.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well, thank you, Courtney.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Thank.
If that's what you're lookingfor.
Well, thank you, courtney.
Thank you, thank you for takingthis on and again.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Thank you, wanderer.
This is the most short-windedI've ever been on an episode.
I don't think I've ever not hadthis much to say.
I just keep.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
There's just nothing there, short ones aren't bad.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Short ones aren't bad .
Speaker 1 (15:44):
No, I mean, not everybody can be like Ted part
episode.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Listen, there's a lot to say.
There's a lot to say aboutBundy, but anyways, wanderers,
until next time.
I think Hannah's going to cometo us with the next episode.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yes, we're going to talk about Body Farms.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Body Farms.
I know Rob's excited about BodyFarms.
He's been talking about BodyFarms for like six months.
I know I'm so sad that he's notgoing to be here to hear about
it.
Anyways, thank you, Hannah.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, hannah, and co-hosted by me,
courtney, and it's produced byRob Fitzpatrick.
Music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
To leave a rating and reviewand be sure to follow on all
socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
(16:33):
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
did you ever have like a booger in your nose?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
you just want to pick , but like it's not socially
appropriate to pick it evenworse when it's a hard booger
yes, and you know it's in there,because you can, like, feel it
on the outside of your nostril,and then you're like, could I
just go to the bathroom realquick, pick this shit out and
then wash my hands.
I do think that a lot.
Actually.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
Girl okay, girl Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is Wicked Wanderings.
(01:03):
Okay, so I have an idea for anepisode.
Hannah, that is actually not myown episode, okay, bear with me
.
So we're always asking youlovely folks to text us, tell us
if you want to hear aboutsomething.
And so I apologize because thiswas December 8th, but we did
get a fan mail in and I'm goingto read it so everybody knows,
kind of, where I got the ideafor the episode.
So the fan mail says hey, sorryit's taken me so long to text.
(01:27):
Y'all have been my latest bingeshow and I'm so excited to find
something local.
I'm from Agawam.
Thank you, agawam.
Shout out yeah, we're inSpringfield.
I was wondering have you heardof the case from Springfield on
Daviston off Sumner Ave, triggerwarning that kids are involved,
where an 18 or 19 year oldyoung man with schizophrenia
(01:47):
murdered two of his neighbors?
It happened in 1954 and there'sa book called a threat of
evidence by joanne connor's wadewho tells the story as someone
who lived in the neighborhood atthat time.
This is a forewarning given inthe text, so it is not our
opinion, but someone who wrotein, who is anonymous, wrote in
forewarning.
I know you love your books andthis is not the most well
written.
With all due respect, you'llknow what I mean if you choose
to read it, but it's worth thestory.
(02:08):
So can say I went on amazon, Ibought the book, I read the book
and I will say it seems likethe author is a local author who
is more independent, and orwhen she wrote the book at that
time she was more independent someaning like she had
self-published and things likethat.
So it is a little bit differentif you are an avid literature
lover.
It's not maybe the bestliterature review, but it does
(02:31):
weave an interesting story andit is based off of a true story.
So if you haven't read the bookwhich probably most people have
not I want to say when I was ongoodreads, one of three people
who shelved it on goodreads forthe year was me.
So it's definitely not a verywell-known or popular book, but
it is based off of a true story.
(02:53):
And again, it was located inSpringfield, mass.
I think for myself, one of thehardest parts about the read was
being so local to the area forSpringfield.
I knew what they were talkingabout, but the author chose to
use names that were like justbarely off, like one letter off
use street names that were likeone barely off.
What I will say that I did findentertaining was the big e made
(03:14):
a very, very short, notablemention.
So the date of the murders wasseptember 25th and the date of
the arrest was october 8th.
So we're right in biggieterritory, right?
So the big e, if you'refamiliar with springfield, did
make a mention and I did thinkit was a little entertaining
that she didn't choose to nameit something different.
So like everything, like evenspringfield was called something
(03:36):
else in the book.
So if you're native tospringfield, reading the book
might be just like a keep it inthe back of your head like these
things are gonna sound.
I think she called it likespringdale or something like.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It's very, it's so close that you're like a
springfield so do you know whythe author decided to make it
quote-unquote fiction and notjust have it be a biography?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I, I don't actually.
My hunch is that because shewas local, she didn't want maybe
the media coverage of it.
I will also say it's not my cupof tea, like if I'm gonna read
something that's non-fiction, Iwant to read non-fiction, yeah,
you know.
So I was a little bit outsideof my genre too, which presented
(04:15):
its own personal challengesright right obviously not on the
author.
What I did think was interestingwas the author who wrote the
book was actually 10 years oldand lived only a few blocks away
at the time of of the murder.
Okay, so I did feel like it wasa nice connection that the
author had like clearly takenthat experience into adulthood
and said like okay, thishappened.
(04:35):
I remember hearing about it asa kid and I think your mom
actually, on one episode, wastalking about uh, danny croto
yeah exactly, so I think it doesadd a different element.
Oh, absolutely absolutely so.
The killer and I'm going totalk in their actual name.
So I just used a thread ofevidence as my kind of starting
point, and then I did have to doa lot of my own research.
(04:56):
So I apologize, wanderers, thisepisode is a.
It was a little bit hard towrite.
I'm not gonna lie to you, justbecause all of the names and
things were like slightly off inthe book.
So I had a really hard timewith my own adhd brain trying to
like keep straight in my headwhat exactly people's real name
was, as opposed to their fictionbased name.
So the killer's name waskenneth chapin.
He was 18 years old at the timeof the murder and when he was
(05:19):
arrested, chapin, is thatc-h-a-p-I-N Correct?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
And his victims were Lynn Ann Smith, who was 14 years
old at the time, and thenStephen Goldberg, who sadly, was
four years old at the time.
Four, so I will put a triggerwarning on and just say that it
does involve children.
If that's something that's alittle bit more challenging for
you to hear, or if it's a hardstop for you, then I would just
(05:47):
a very violent crime.
The book took on a role whereyou were getting a lot of Lynn's
character, so the young femalewho was killed where she was
like going to go babysit, andyou were kind of hearing a lot
more of her perspective.
So from my understanding, whathappened between the book and
research is that Lynn wasbabysitting at the time.
This gentleman broke into thehouse and he stabbed her with a
(06:10):
bayonet 38 times.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
So oh, yeah at meeting a bayonet.
I for some reason can't picturea bayonet in my mind.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah it's kind of like a.
I know they put each other inthe land of guns, I believe.
Oh so, yes, okay, I want to sayin this, like end wonders this
is from the book it seemed likehe killed the babysitter as
probably his initial target orwho he wanted, and then the
little boy had actually come outof the room and seen what was
happening so what's reallyinteresting and not interesting
(06:41):
in a positive way is that therewere two little boys at the
house that she was babysittingand he did not kill the other
little boy.
So this family comes home andone little boy is okay, one is
dead and so is the babysitter,god.
So that was in September of1954 that all that happened,
okay, so he was obviously caughtand he was sentenced to death
(07:05):
in 1955.
But he actually died in prisonin 1996 of a heart attack.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So they kept having to put off the death sentence.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, so they had a really hard time.
From my understanding aboutkind of where his mental health
was.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
So he was pronounced sane enough for trial by several
mass psychiatrists andobviously his attorney had kind
of continued to keep saying likehey, like what, yeah, what can
we find?
And what I think is interestingis he never really provided a
rationale for the murders.
Obviously, his attorney hadkind of continued to keep saying
like hey, like what, yeah, whatcan we find?
And what I think is interestingis he never really provided a
rationale for the murders.
So like he at some point, youknow, came around and he didn't
(07:43):
deny it, but he wasn't reallygiving you like a reason for why
.
And I do think again, thediscrepancy between the book and
reality is really hard todistinguish.
Because in the book there was alot of like for the obvious plot
piece of it there.
Because in the book there was alot of like for the obvious
plot piece of it.
There was a lot ofhypothesizing and like leading
people to think things.
But it really boils down to hedidn't say why he did it.
He really remained completelyemotionless from the beginning
to the end of all of theprocedure.
A little bit haunting seemedtotally random, left me thinking
(08:06):
like did he hurt other peopleor was this going to be the
beginning of something?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
just he was only going on death row for those two
murders correct.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, and what's even more messed up is and kind of
like a fun fact, he was actuallya pallbearer at lynn's funeral
days after he killed her,because he actually knew her
from school.
Well shit, did they say whatfuneral home?
I don't think so.
I didn't come across that.
But two weeks after the murderhe confessed and he did talk to
(08:35):
police and he had quoted andhere I am quoting she screamed
and I stabbed her.
It was kind of like this is whathappened she screamed and I
stabbed her.
Do you mind telling me thewhole?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
name for Lynn again.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Lynn, l-y-n-n.
Ann Smith.
He just kind of stuck to I haveno reason for these murders.
I didn't.
I didn't have a rationale,which is very interesting.
He was arrested on October 8thof 1954.
And what year again was this?
The murders were 1954.
It was a pretty quick situationbecause September 25th was the
murder and then October 8th ofthe same year is when he was
(09:06):
arrested.
So it was originally thesentence to death in 1955, and
then they had changed it to lifein prison without parole in
1956.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
The only reason why you want to know, because my
family is very much involvedwith funeral homes and so okay,
so her burial is at HillcrestPark Cemetery in Springfield.
Well, shit, I have pictures ofher.
Oh, I know.
Damn.
Yeah, we could literally seelike where her burial site is.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Absolutely yeah, we could literally see like where
her burial site is?
Absolutely we could.
I think what was like the most,like the biggest take home for
me with this, and kind of what Ifound to be the most
fascinating that I think isactually gonna kind of entice me
to go down a different rabbithole of research was really what
constitutes insanity and in atrial and kind of, how do they
(09:52):
decide that?
Because they kind of continueto keep finding different people
to try to assess him and say,hey, is he insane?
Eight massachusettspsychiatrists pronounced him
sane, but one person did say, Ibelieve, that he is in the early
stages of schizophrenia.
They tried to prove that he wasa victim of epilepsy, even
though it's not necessarilyrelated to insanity.
(10:13):
They tried to talk about allsorts of different things that
could have been the reason why Imean it comes down to for me,
the two big pieces that I tookaway from what is a very scary
case is just there's so muchinformation that's not there.
We don't have a confession fromhim saying why he did it.
Those poor families right,those poor families are just
like who is this man and why didhe do this?
(10:40):
And then the insanity part liketo be to be declared sane by
eight psychiatrists, I mean, andonly one of them was like, yeah
, maybe he had the early stagesof schizophrenia this is here,
it's a rabbit hole.
It's certainly a rabbit hole,because now I'm going through
this all this stuff on my phone.
I have to say one of my biggestthings and obviously you guys
know that when we do an episodehere, we research them and we
read the book and we give youguys thorough information.
I feel like I was so stuck withthis one but I wanted to finish
(11:04):
it because obviously I read thebook and it was a
recommendation from a wandererand the case is certainly
complex in its own way, but Ifelt like as much as it was
super complex, there was justnot a lot to find on it yeah,
because I was even hoping thatthe republican at some point
because I feel like therepublicans been around for a
while would be able to give usinformation.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I'm not seeing any republican articles on it and
that's obviously.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I looked for that one too and I I mean I you can find
things on like random places,but then I'm, then I don't trust
the information.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's kind of my problem.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I mean, I think we should go to hillcrest cemetery
because I think we might have toat least pair respects and yeah
, like we did with danny croto.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I mean, I think that's really important,
especially when we have theselocal cases.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I did find this picture of him?
I did find that, and he wasjust so young I mean, he was
just he was just so young.
You can buy that picture if youwant what?
Yeah, I guess that website youcan buy it on, which seems kind
of terrible.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't love that.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I don't know.
I think we need to go tohillcrest cemetery.
I think we need because I meanthey have it all mapped out and
just I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I think it's important for these local
victims what I do have to sayand I buried the lead on this
one is that everyone, when Ipicked I picked up the book I
was like, why, a thread ofevidence?
His mother actually gave himaway with a thread.
I want to say it was crochet, apiece of crocheted thread.
That was when they were in thehome.
It was what was found at thescene and in his home, because
(12:28):
his mom was a crafter.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Oh God, mm-hmm, so I'm sorry.
Wait, he was adopted.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
No, was a crafter, oh god so.
So I'm sorry.
Wait, he was adopted.
No, you said his mom gave himaway.
His mom gave him away as themurderer.
Oh, his mom is the reason hewas caught, because her craft
room.
He had used some part of thethread on something that I'm
sorry, I thought you meant like.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I was like no, no, no .
Speaker 2 (12:48):
So when they were doing the neighborhood canvas
and they had checked everybodyout, they were like wait a
second.
And and I think they out, theywere like wait a second and I
think they would have.
He would have gotten away withit, but one of the detectives
from the story again, obviously,I'm kind of adding on this.
It seemed like probably basedoff of the truth very closely.
The detective was kind of likeoh, wait a minute, that's a
crafting room.
(13:09):
We found this thread.
Where did that come from?
Because the thread didn't matchanything in the victim's home
and that's where they were likewhere did this come from?
And so when they showed it toher to be like, hey, do you
recognize?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
this thread.
She was like yeah, sure, I havethat and she could show like oh
god this is where I have thisinteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, and they arrested him at school.
He was arrested at the highschool.
What high school, I don't thinkthey said.
I think they left it as thehigh school that he attended.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
There has to be more to this.
It's just too many missingpieces.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
And then every article you can find just always
ends with when we asked him whyhe did it, he just said I don't
know why I did it.
I don't know why I did it, Idon't know why I did it Crime of
update.
I feel like here at WickedWanderings we like to dissect
the why.
So it's really hard for me,like this one did linger with me
because I was like, why, why,why, we want that rationale so
badly and you can't always findit Right.
(14:06):
So I mean I'm happy that ourwanderer pointed it out to us.
Shout wanderer, pointed it outto us.
Shout out, wanderer, I'm sorryI'm calling you wanderer, but
they're anonymous texts.
So if you have an article or astory or a person you think
you've heard about, definitelysend it our way.
Um, we love learning more andcertainly it was shocking to me
that this was right here inspringfield and I didn't know
(14:27):
about the book.
But it is hard to find localbooks too, I find about true
crime, like even if you go tobarnes and noble or whatever.
This book wasn't at barnes andnoble, I checked yeah I'm
assuming because it's a smallerread and maybe it wasn't but we
appreciate the you know therecommendations we really do and
if anybody has more information, uh, or if you can narrow
something down further than Idid.
Please reach out to me if youknow me privately, or or through
(14:49):
the the texting on our podcast,because I am stumped by this
one completely.
But yeah, threat of evidence.
I would say, if you areinterested in this case reading
the book as a starting point, orif you started to do your own
research and then want to readit, I would have to caution you
that if it is a book that you'rejust reading for enjoyment and
just for a story, that maybe youwould take a pass.
(15:11):
But if you're looking atresearch for this particular
case, it will definitely get yougoing on the right side, and no
disrespect to the author.
Obviously, you know just not mycup of tea.
Not every book can be your owncup of tea, but it'll definitely
get you started on this case,if that's what you're looking
for.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well, thank you, Courtney.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Thank.
If that's what you're lookingfor.
Well, thank you, courtney.
Thank you, thank you for takingthis on and again.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Thank you, wanderer.
This is the most short-windedI've ever been on an episode.
I don't think I've ever not hadthis much to say.
I just keep.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
There's just nothing there, short ones aren't bad.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Short ones aren't bad .
Speaker 1 (15:44):
No, I mean, not everybody can be like Ted part
episode.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Listen, there's a lot to say.
There's a lot to say aboutBundy, but anyways, wanderers,
until next time.
I think Hannah's going to cometo us with the next episode.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yes, we're going to talk about Body Farms.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Body Farms.
I know Rob's excited about BodyFarms.
He's been talking about BodyFarms for like six months.
I know I'm so sad that he's notgoing to be here to hear about
it.
Anyways, thank you, Hannah.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, hannah, and co-hosted by me,
courtney, and it's produced byRob Fitzpatrick.
Music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
To leave a rating and reviewand be sure to follow on all
socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
(16:33):
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
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