February 26, 2025 • 38 mins
This episode explores the fascinating yet unsettling world of body farms and the groundbreaking work of Dr. Bill Bass. By examining how bodies decompose in varying environments, we uncover insights that can aid forensic investigations and societal perceptions of death.
• Introduction with a funny personal story
• Overview of body farms and their purpose
• Dr. Bill Bass's journey and contributions to anthropology
• Detailed explanation of the stages of decomposition
• Gripping case studies illustrating the importance of body farms
• Reflections on the significance of understanding death and decomposition
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Wicked Wanderings is hosted by Hannah & Courtney and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick. Music by Sascha Ende.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah (00:00):
Oh my god, you want to hear a funny story.
Rob (00:02):
Sure.
Hannah (00:02):
Okay.
So before we even left John'sapartment, moi gets into the
driver's seat of mom's car andyou know how mom sometimes likes
to put the brake on, like theemergency brake, anywhere she
goes.
So I was checking for it, so Iwas flipping all these things
underneath, I popped the hood.
Rob (00:19):
Of course you did.
Courtney (00:20):
Open the gas tank.
Rob (00:21):
I opened the gas tank.
Courtney (00:21):
And dislodged the trunk, and do you know who had
to get out and fix them all?
Rob (00:26):
You.
Courtney (00:26):
Courtney Elvey.
She's sitting there grippingthe wheel in both hands.
She's like I think I popped thehood.
I think I popped the hood.
What do I do?
What do I do?
I'm like get out and close thehood.
Was the red light on the dashand said the brake was on, it
was the face of oh shit, Ididn't even check that part,
meaning she probably made me getout and look like a clown car
in Boston for no particularpurpose.
Hannah (00:48):
But Courtney is like my woman crush.
She gets out there, she popsthe hood, she slams it back down
.
I'm like that's my bitch.
Ok, hi, I'm Hannah and I'mCourtney.
(01:09):
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (01:14):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is.
Hannah (01:21):
Wicked.
Rob (01:21):
Wanderings Hi Courtney, hi Hannah, hi Rob, hello Hi Skye
Woof.
Courtney (01:44):
And hi, Kenzie.
Kenzie's been kind of meanlately.
Hannah (01:47):
Welcome to the episode on the body farms that Rob had
requested.
Rob (01:52):
Excellent.
Hannah (01:52):
I picked up this book which I did give five stars
because it's fantabulous.
I was intrigued, I was drawn in, I wanted to reread it again.
I want more.
Courtney (02:01):
All of the elements because you are very stingy with
your five stars.
Thank you.
Can I ask a quick questionbefore you get into it?
Yes, because Rob was the onewho suggested it.
Rob, what made you think likebody farms?
Rob (02:12):
I've always been intrigued about the whole body farm and
how they use the science of thebody farm to figure out
different ways bodies decompose.
And they use that science whenyou know they're doing like an
autopsy on a body.
So I've always been intriguedby that, even way before I even
met Hannah.
Courtney (02:30):
So do you think that you've done enough independent
research that you might actuallyknow more about this than
Hannah?
Rob (02:34):
I mean, I've never done research on it, I only know what
I've seen on TV or heard onpodcasts and stuff, what's gonna
be interesting is I actuallyhave questions asking.
Hannah (02:43):
If you guys have the answers, cool, we're here for it
.
We'll see if Rob does know morethan me.
So the book I read is calledDeath's Acre, inside the
Legendary Forensic Lab, the BodyFarm, where the Dead Do Tell
Tales, and it's by Dr Bill Bass,who is a famous anthropologist,
and John Jefferson who helpedhim write it.
(03:03):
It's absolutely incrediblefamous anthropologist and John
Jefferson who helped him writeit.
It's absolutely incredible.
And of course I'm going to quotefrom it guys, and here I am
quoting.
So this book was really aboutDr Bill Bass and his journey of
how the body farm came to be,how he got into anthropology,
but also the cases that reallystuck out in his mind of how the
research that him and hisstudents have done that have
(03:25):
helped, you know, the DAs andthe prosecutor in cases, and
it's really quite incredible.
So it's kind of going to goeverywhere and I apologize, but
like that's kind of how the bookwas.
It was all of a sudden he'slike, yeah, and then you know,
my wife died, but here I am, youknow, digging up Native
American remains and it goes onfrom there.
So it's probably going to seemlike it's back and forth, but I
just tried to pick out thethings that I thought were very
(03:45):
fascinating.
Courtney (03:46):
I think it's hard to do an episode when a book does
that too.
The Babysitter was one of thosebooks that did that, where it
was like the author's ownpersonal stuff.
And then in comes the actualhistory too.
I mean, it is actual historyfor that person.
But when you're talking aboutyou're not doing an episode on
the doctor, You're doing anepisode on the topic.
It is hard to kind of get inthere and siphon through it.
Exactly so bear with Bear withBear with.
(04:10):
I will try the best I can.
Sounds like a new, like EDMtrack Bear with Bear with Bear
with.
Rob (04:16):
It comes from a British show that we watched a few years
ago.
Oh, miranda, yeah, that's agreat show.
Courtney (04:22):
How can she remember stuff like that that fast Me?
Yeah, because I'm a weirdo, butother times I'll say something
to you and you're like what?
Hannah (04:29):
I just watched you rap a whole Eminem track on the drive
.
Courtney (04:33):
It was therapeutic.
Rob (04:35):
Well, music and lyrics come from a different side of the
brain than actual speech.
Courtney (04:40):
High five.
Us ADHD people, we do that partreally well.
We do.
Hannah (04:46):
Don't ask us what we, you know, thought first thing in
the morning or what kind oftoothpaste we have, though,
because we won't know so dr billbass, he started off actually
in counseling for his schooling,um, and then he took an
anthropology class and heabsolutely fell in love with it.
He got accepted to harvard buthe did not take it, meaning he
just he decided, no, I'm notgoing to do that.
I want to go to the Universityof Pennsylvania, which I think
(05:08):
it's rare for people to just sayno to Harvard.
Courtney (05:11):
Yeah, harvard probably took that rejection hard,
probably.
What do you mean?
We accepted you.
Why are you not coming Right,especially?
Hannah (05:16):
after how famous Bill Bass became anyways, but he
wanted to learn from Dr Krogmanand he actually was very famous
bone detective in the 40s and50s.
So something really interestingis is that dr crogman actually
shattered his left leg from afall and so him and dr crogman
actually lived in the same area,so they ended up like commuting
(05:38):
.
He would help him bring in, buteven after his leg was healed
they ended up staying partnersin crime on the way to work.
So he ended up getting likeextra lessons on their drive-ins
, which I thought was so coolthe vip lesson right?
so okay, here's some fun factsthat come in childhood.
Courtney (05:54):
Skeletons are androgynous, meaning you cannot
tell what sex they are ohinteresting, right makes sense,
I thought that was fascinatingand I feel like people don't
talk about that very oftenbecause usually in the cases
that we've reviewed, when therehave been children, there's more
than just skeletal remains tobe able to identify those things
.
Hannah (06:13):
Right.
So the first story he kind oftalked about was going to South
Dakota and helping with theexcavation of the Irikaro tribe,
and something I found reallyinteresting was how their graves
are different.
So when we think about a gravenowadays you have this like
rectangular shape right theirgraves.
They would actually make around pit, put the body in so
(06:36):
their knees are up to theirchest and they fold their arms,
then they actually so put somedirt in, then they put leaves
and sticks and then soil on top.
Courtney (06:46):
That does not seem like a comfortable way to rest
for the rest of your life.
Hannah (06:49):
It doesn't, but I don't know why they made them circular
.
I don't know if it just savedspace, I don't know, but anyways
, I thought that was interesting.
If there was a cultural pieceto the circle, probably.
And something else interestingabout Native American remains is
that they were being collected,like from everywhere.
But in 1990, congress actuallypassed a law.
They could no longer keepNative American bones to be
(07:10):
collected, so there was a hugecollection in one museum and
they weren't allowed to do thatanymore.
Courtney (07:15):
What did they do with them after that point?
Hannah (07:17):
They actually got sent back to the tribes.
Oh okay, it was the tribes thatactually put forth the Congress
.
Courtney (07:22):
Like you, can't just like take our ancestors and hold
them literally hostage.
Hannah (07:27):
Literally.
One good point that he makes isthat bones remember.
Have you guys ever broken abone?
Yes, no.
I haven't either.
Rob (07:36):
And that's why we got married Terrible.
Hannah (07:40):
I guess, I'm unmarriable now, what bones have you broken
?
Courtney (07:44):
I broke my fibula on my left leg and then I did break
my left, was it?
No, it was my right baby pinkytoe.
I don't know exactly whichphalange bone it was but it was
completely off the side of myfoot.
Oh God yeah.
Hannah (07:58):
So your bones are going to remember.
So when you are just a skeletonSorry, courtney, love you but
when you're just a skeletonthey're going to see where the
bones have, like, basicallymatched up again with a break,
isn't that?
Courtney (08:10):
cool, it makes sense.
I mean, also for me there'sgoing to be a ginormous hunk of
metal over my left ankle thathad to be reconstructed so
perfect.
I've got like I think it's fivescrews and a steel plate.
That's maybe like two and ahalf inches or three inches.
Hannah (08:23):
So can you go through metal detectors in an airport.
Courtney (08:25):
Um, I can.
Sometimes it goes off,sometimes it doesn't.
I usually just like pull mypant leg up and don't wear a
tall sock that day and be likelook, you can literally feel my
skin, you can feel the platethrough it, and when they wave
it over my naked ankle they cansee like it's going off.
It probably is.
I mean, I probably should haveone of those cards from my
wallet, but I just don't.
Interesting, yeah, so if youever try to fly anywhere with me
(08:46):
, be aware of that.
Hannah (08:47):
So for the first question when examining bones,
you need to start with the bigfour.
So you have a skeleton in frontof you.
What do you think are the bigfour that you need to come up
with first?
Femur, okay.
Besides the bone, like toidentify the person oh, the
skull no, don't think bones.
What will help you say bones?
(09:09):
you have so, yes, you have afull skeleton in front of you,
but what are the four?
So, if you have to identifythis person, right, what are the
four that you probably wouldneed to come up with?
First, teeth.
Okay, I'll give you a hint.
So you have to have find theirsex no, that was gonna be my
next thing okay, what else does?
They were no race oh age.
Courtney (09:30):
Let's see, we were totally wrong on this we were
thinking we want to see themteeth rob and I get it.
Hannah (09:36):
Now their age, so sex race age and stature stature
they can figure out, like thestature between like two to
three inches, based off oflooking at your legs I have no
clue what you're talking about,like your height and the way you
carry your, your build.
I think right oh so you are asix foot male, correct?
(09:57):
Yes so just looking at your leg, they could figure out like oh,
he's probably between, like youknow, 5, 10 and 6 1 oh, so they
don't need your whole skeletonto determine your height
interesting that fascinating.
So, looking at race right, doyou know what bone or structure
a bone you can look at to figureout what race someone is?
Courtney (10:19):
uh the pelvic bone wrong I want to say it was
someplace in the facial bone,wasn't it?
It's the skull.
Hannah (10:25):
So you're thinking of the sex, right, because women's
hips are a lot different than amale's.
I should say a woman you can'twith children, obviously, but me
and Courtney would be known.
Okay, they're a woman becausebased off their hip bones.
So we have three basicdifferent kinds of races that
you can look at.
You can have a Caucasoid, whichis white people, european.
(10:47):
You have Mongoloids, which isEskimo people of Asian descent,
native Americans, and then youhave Negroids, which is people
of African or Black descent.
Rob (10:58):
Okay.
Hannah (11:00):
Something else interesting when you look at the
skull is another difference youcan tell is the noses.
So there is a smaller andbigger nasal passages.
So they would be smaller forpeople of white descent because
of the cold air and they want tokeep the cold from getting into
the lungs.
But they're bigger nasalpassages for people of, you know
(11:22):
, black, descent of Africa andthings because to let the heat
in so they can basically a fan,like an internal fan for them,
which I thought was reallyinteresting.
Rob (11:31):
So not the heat, but the air.
Yes, let air in.
Yes.
Hannah (11:35):
Yeah, so the skull density is also something
Interesting.
White skulls are less dense.
An example that he gave is thatyou don't see many.
You know black males or blackfemales being Olympic swimmers
and winning.
Because, there's actually.
It's like their skulls aredenser than ours, so it's harder
for them to swim Not swim, butlike swim fast.
Rob (11:57):
Oh.
Hannah (11:58):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does so.
Dr Bass this is an interestingfact would take bones that still
had skin, muscle et cetera onthem and boil them on his stove
at home.
That's disgusting.
He actually had to buy hisfirst wife two stoves because
she was like absolutely not.
Like this is disgusting, whichI thought was weird.
Courtney (12:17):
I feel like Cousin Mark would get a real rile out
of that because he's immediatelythinking in his head.
I know you are, mark.
You're thinking about the handand my discomfort with gloves.
I know you are thinking aboutit actually came up in this book
how they would take the skinoff and I thought of you when
they would put the I want to beknown for something other than,
like meat hands.
Can I just be known forsomething else please?
Anything, I'm begging you guys.
Hannah (12:38):
So Bass starts being called to crime scenes and Dr
Bass considers the camera themost important part of the crime
scene equipment.
Why?
Rob (12:45):
Well, because it documents what the crime scene was during
that actual time.
Courtney (12:55):
Right, it would show the bones where they naturally
were, is what I would imagine asa photographer.
I would want to see them theway they naturally were when
they were discovered, becauseonce you take them in for
cleaning, they're not going tobe in the same pattern that they
were in the way I would thinkabout okay I think that's what
rob was trying to get at, andonce you contaminate a scene,
right, whether you have littlebooties on or not.
Like it's done, right, it's overthose first crisp pictures are
like when this scene, like hesaid, like it's pristine,
(13:17):
there's nothing else on it so heactually had a student that,
like that was his thing.
Hannah (13:21):
He took the pictures and when in doubt, take more was
kind of his motto.
Yes, so actually one crimescene that they actually did.
The pictures were what caughtthe footprint of the killer.
They quartered off the scene,they called the anthropologist
and his students started takingpictures.
He went to the basement andthere was like this layer of
dust on the floor and heactually caught the footprint of
(13:42):
the killer, which actuallyhelped win the case which is
surprising too, because I thinka lot of people think, like
crime scene photography, there'sno skill to it.
Courtney (13:49):
Yep, I mean, I don't.
I feel like even just takingphotos for a hobby, there's a
skill to every kind of differentthing you're going to try to
capture.
If you had had the lightingwrong, you wouldn't have seen a
footprint in the dust at all,especially in a basement.
Hannah (14:06):
Yep, especially in a basement.
Yep, dr bass also had a burnvictim.
Uh, so when bodies burn Ithought that's interesting the
arms and legs act like kindlingthey actually like shrivel up
towards the body.
If you have a victim wheretheir arms and legs are straight
, it's actually a goodindication that they are
probably restrained ohinteresting.
I really like that.
So, thinking about cases you'veprobably seen on TV and stuff,
I'm trying to like remember ifI've ever seen how the Arms
(14:27):
Trivel and stuff, but I don'tknow.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
Courtney (14:30):
I don't feel like I've often like come across that,
whether it's in shows or inanything I've been reading,
where they talk about the bonesspecifically.
There is one book I wonder if Ican remember.
All that Remains maybe is thename of it.
It's also about bones.
That's on my TBR but I haven'tread it.
Oh yeah, that's on mine.
Hannah (14:45):
It's up there.
Courtney (14:46):
I started to read it and it was a really good book,
but I lost somebody in my familyright at the same time that I
was trying to read it.
Hannah (14:59):
And it was just a little bit too much death for the
personal situation that I was in.
So soon, dr Bass.
Complete difference between theKansas bodies which had these,
like this, clean sun bleachedall the bones, and then the
Tennessee bodies which they wererotting and maggot laden why.
Courtney (15:16):
Soil Soil differences.
Rob (15:18):
Well, if it's sun bleached, I mean obviously it's getting
more sun.
Hannah (15:21):
Right.
So the environment Right.
It was a lot hotter and drierwhere he was in Kansas and then
he got to Tennessee where it's alot, it's a moisture air.
Rob (15:31):
So I thought that was also interesting.
Hannah (15:33):
So, oh my gosh, this story got me.
So there was a fisherman and hefound a floating corpse with no
head.
So the local newspaper thismust have been a small town put
out basically like a bolo right.
They put out the story andthey're like hey, hey, if you
found a head, can you pleasebring it to the sheriff's
department as if that wouldn'thave been the first thing
(15:53):
without somebody telling youthat you would have done with a
head.
Courtney (15:55):
Yeah, and first of all , don't bring it to the
sheriff's department, just likeyou were saying, leave it where
it is and call the sheriff'sdepartment.
Hannah (16:02):
Oh god one skull was brought in and it was old and
you can just tell like okay,this isn't the most recent
fisherman.
It was also not white male,which is what they were looking
for.
Bass was intrigued.
He's like well, whose fuckingskull?
Courtney (16:15):
is this If you find a body, could you bring that to
the sheriff's department also?
We've got a real problem cominghere.
Hannah (16:22):
So they ended up finding out that a junkyard dealer had
it because he got a car from alocal of some sort and the skull
was in a five gallon paintbucket in the car's engine
compartment.
Rob (16:35):
Engine compartment, just the skull.
Courtney (16:38):
How would you even fit a bucket in an engine
compartment?
That's what I was wondering.
Hannah (16:41):
I don't know if it was a really old car.
Courtney (16:43):
It must have been, or maybe one of the ones where they
have like the engine in theback?
That's what I was wondering.
Rear engine.
Hannah (16:50):
So they ended up finding out that the skull was from
World War II.
Wow, and the car owner was aWorld War II vet and he found a
crashed Japanese plane, saw theskull and took it as a trophy
from the war.
The man was Japanese that wasdied, so he took the skull.
He made a hole in the bottom toput a light bulb through to
(17:10):
make halloween decoration.
Oh god, apparently this wascommon, where our vets from this
war actually would take skullshome as well there's a lot wrong
with that statement.
Courtney (17:22):
Yes, there's a lot wrong with that statement there
is definitely a lot, of, a lotof uh, questionable things there
very questionable, but it'sjust interesting to me.
Hannah (17:31):
Like all the way, in tennessee you have a skull of a
man that was from japan, thatfought in the war, like that, to
me, is like you're desecratinga body like, yeah, I don't care
if you're at war or not, that'sjust not there's got to be some
bad karma associated with makingsomeone's actual head into a
Halloween decoration.
There's got to be so the BodyFarm was started in 1981, and
(17:54):
Bass was about to embark on someamazing scientific discoveries.
And of course he didn't do iton his own.
He had his students, which theyreally branched out into, like
studying bugs and like goingfrom larvae to maggots to flies
and how long it takes for bodiesto decompose.
They were putting them in watersoil that wasn't like maybe two
(18:17):
inches deep.
They were putting them in carsto see if the heat of the car
was making it worse, like theywere trying every which way.
And one research avenue wasmaggots.
I know Gross, not a great topic.
I know, guys, if you're eatingyou might want to finish eating.
First the larvae that hatchfrom the flies.
(18:38):
They lay an egg right, and DrBass and his team actually put
orange dots on flies as well tosee if.
Well, one, how would they findthe corpse right?
Would they find the corpse?
And two, if they would go backto the corpse again, or is it
just like a one-time thing forthem?
So they lay their eggs, theyturn into maggots, they feed on
(18:59):
the body, they become flies.
Okay, which is also anotherreason, like if you have flies
in your food, like in the summer, I just think like you know, we
always we always push them away.
But I'm like, oh, like secondthought.
Courtney (19:11):
those flies could have been on dead bodies Exactly.
Rob (19:14):
Yeah, exactly.
But the thing is with flieswhen they land, they always
throw up where they land,because they use the the acid in
the throw up to break downwhatever they're going to be
eating.
So if they land on your food,they're throwing up and that
acid is landing on your food sothey can consume it.
(19:36):
So, yes, it is disgusting whenflies land on your food.
For that reason and becausethey were probably just eating a
dead animal or something likethat, or poop or poop probably
just eating a dead animal orsomething like that, or poop or
poop and now they're throwing itup on your food.
Hannah (19:52):
So let's talk about body decomposition.
There's three stages that abody goes through.
Can anyone tell me what theyare?
Courtney (19:59):
decomp one, two and three.
No, I'm gonna have to say Idon't know anything about
decomposition.
So you, you have a fresh body.
Hannah (20:07):
You have a bloated body, so that's when the gases are
coming through Yep.
Rob (20:12):
So we right now would be considered fresh bodies.
Hannah (20:15):
No, because we're not dead.
Rob (20:17):
If we were dead, right now we would be considered fresh
bodies.
Courtney (20:20):
Yes, because we are freshly dead.
Rob (20:22):
Yes, okay, okay.
Hannah (20:24):
So fresh, bloated and then decay.
Courtney (20:30):
I feel, a little bloated I was just gonna say I
think I could also be partiallybloated, so how long do they
last in each like category?
Rob (20:37):
I'm sure it depends on the weather and it depends on where
they are.
Hannah (20:41):
So if you have a body in the everglades of florida and a
trunk, it's gonna be completelydifferent than somebody that's
dead in the desert in Las Vegas.
Rob (20:51):
Oh, versus a body that's dead on Mount Everest.
Courtney (20:55):
Exactly, or in a snowbank here in New England
right now.
Rob (20:58):
Exactly.
Courtney (20:59):
Frozen in a little time capsule.
Rob (21:01):
Fun fact about Mount Everest If you die up there,
that's where you stay.
They do not remove the bodiesand bring them back down.
Courtney (21:09):
It's a trophy.
You get to stay there.
Hopefully you were doingsomething like coolish.
Rob (21:15):
You were hiking Mount Everest.
Courtney (21:16):
Yeah, but you want like an action shot, not like a
pooping in the woods shot orsomething.
Rob (21:21):
Oh jeez, no Sorry.
Courtney (21:22):
I'm bringing fecal matter into this quite a bit
today.
Three stages of bodydecomposition.
I'm bringing fecal matter intothis quite a bit today.
Three stages of bodydecomposition.
Hannah (21:28):
So there's actually a formula that they can do.
So if they find out like, okay,this guy died in New England.
You know, it was 32 degrees fortwo days and then all of a
sudden we had a 50 degree day,there's actually a calculation
they can do to figure out whenthe guy died.
So that's how they figured thatout.
Rob (21:46):
Very fascinating they find.
They find out what thetemperature of the body is at
that point in time, and thenthey put that into the
calculation.
Hannah (21:55):
Well, this is this is different than the than the
liver temperature.
Oh yeah, this is different.
Rob (22:00):
Okay.
Hannah (22:01):
Just saying that he actually didn't talk about that.
So this guy is ananthropologist, right, he's
dealing with the bones.
You're talking more of like aperson that does the autopsy
they would check the liver buthe's not doing that.
There was actually a story inthe book.
He actually said there was acrime scene, there were several
bodies that had decomposed orwhatever, and there was actually
a fresh body, and he's likethis is too fresh for me.
Rob (22:37):
You need to send top seed like that.
Hannah (22:38):
That's not what that one's got organs still yeah,
that one's not mine, so fun factabout lime.
Does anyone know about lime?
Rob (22:41):
lime disease.
Nope, what's something wealways know about crime scenes
in lime?
Courtney (22:44):
like, uh, the green citrus lime, granny Lime.
It doesn't that like break downbodies.
Hannah (22:49):
Yes, but no, he actually says lime does reduce the odor
of decomposition but alsoreduces the rate of
decomposition, so it'll helppeople not smell it, but it's
not going to help.
Courtney (23:02):
All those people who were like I need a bucket of
lime for this.
Well, that's how they gotcaught.
Huh, stupid, stupid.
Hannah (23:09):
Okay, so we have a case?
Rob (23:11):
How about acid in the bathtub?
Courtney (23:15):
Don't call your plumber after.
We just talked about this.
Yeah, we did with Mark Cousin.
Rob (23:18):
Mark talked about it but the acid will not break down
your bathtub.
Hannah (23:23):
Yeah, but then you have stuff going down your drain.
Rob (23:27):
Stuff going in the drain.
Yeah, you still yeah.
But then you have stuff goingin the drain.
Yeah, you still have the bonesto go in?
Courtney (23:30):
no, because it would break the acid breaks down
everything, but not to acomplete liquid, the way that
some people assume.
Rob (23:34):
It's still clogged have you ever watched breaking bad?
Hannah (23:37):
okay, I couldn't get past the first season because it
was bad, breaking very bad no,it was great see, I couldn't get
through it either court, so Iwas like oh my, my gosh, they're
making meth again.
Courtney (23:47):
Wow.
Rob (23:48):
Better Call Saul, which was a prequel, was actually better
than Breaking Bad, but BreakingBad was pretty good.
Hannah (23:54):
I have a case.
Rob (23:55):
Case number two.
Hannah (23:58):
Terry Ramsberg, not been seen in two years.
Rob (24:02):
Uh-oh.
Hannah (24:02):
Yeah, funny right, never good.
So Terry had actually gonemissing around January 1989.
He went to work, work, nevercame home.
So not long after lily may, hiswife had filed a missing
persons case.
She then filed divorce shortlythereafter on the grounds of
abandonment.
She then remained in the housebecause she's like, oh, maybe
(24:24):
terry will return.
Okay, so terry's dad this isfishy.
He went, just abandoned hisfamily.
It just didn't sound like hisson.
So he decided to go snooping.
And he went snooping in thehouse and, wouldn't you know, he
went to the crawl space.
And what does he find in thecrawl?
Courtney (24:41):
terry, he found terry so I'm sorry, wait a minute.
Wait a minute, back it up backit up dead body, terry.
Rob (24:48):
Yeah okay.
Courtney (24:49):
So terry's ex-wife at that point right, because she
filed for a divorce, thendecided she wanted to stay in
the house where the dead bodyalready was, in case he decided
to return.
That's weird.
If you're divorcing somebody,you're like nah, you abandoned
me, bye, right which obviouslyshe was trying to make sure that
no one found the body I meanthere's got be.
I can't understand people whoput bodies in their walls or in
their house.
You live there, for Christ'ssake.
(25:10):
People are going to notice, andif there's a body in there, who
do you think they're looking at?
Rob (25:14):
Exactly.
Courtney (25:14):
Exactly.
It's definitely not somebodyelse.
Exactly.
Hannah (25:17):
Oh my goodness, and she married very shortly after.
Rob (25:21):
That's like with the local we covered, Stuart Welding.
He was putting the dead bodiesin his backyard.
Courtney (25:27):
Why Seems like the first place somebody would look.
Hannah (25:31):
I just have a fun quote from him.
Courtney (25:34):
And here I am quoting Basements.
Hannah (25:36):
Why are crime labs and morgues always in basements?
Why not on the upper top floorwith big corner windows looking
out across the city or thecountryside?
Just because some of us like tolook at bodies and bones, that
doesn't mean we wouldn'tappreciate a nice few-hour
window every now and then.
Courtney (25:50):
Because they don't want people looking in from
outside.
Duh.
Rob (25:53):
Or they don't want the sun to mess up stuff.
Courtney (25:56):
I mean, or they just don't like the overhead light.
Hannah (26:02):
You can get windows that , with certain reflection, that
you still can look out but nopeople can look in so what's the
reason?
There is it.
He was just going on a rant andI appreciated the quote I mean
to be fair.
Courtney (26:10):
I do also hear creepy things about addicts.
Very often I have a.
There's a negative connotationfor me with the word crawl space
.
After how many true crimethings we've done because
there's never not a dead body inthe crawl space?
Hannah (26:21):
yeah, true.
So another fun fact like withthe lime, fire is not the
easiest way to get rid of a bodythat I could have told you yeah
it really is not.
So he obviously said the fatterthe person is, you know, the
easier it is.
But that just it's not, itdoesn't really it's not a
complete job.
Rob (26:39):
The fat turns into fuel for the fire, right?
So if you're's not, it doesn'treally it's not a complete job.
The fat turns into fuel for thefire, right?
Courtney (26:44):
so if you're gonna burn somebody, don't let it be a
skinny one yeah my last case.
Hannah (26:48):
I'm gonna talk to you guys about case three this case
in 1997 in tennessee and dr basswas called to help with it
because, you know, the policedepartment wasn't so sure about
it.
They ended up at a house of aman named matt rogers and right
away bass sees a burn barrel, asyou do in the south, with a
bone sticking out of it, andmatt, who is the perpetrator,
(27:10):
says oh that bone.
You know, my dog caught it inthe woods and it's a goat bone
goat yeah like greatest of alltime bone, tom Brady bone.
So he found the bone right andpolice department didn't believe
him.
So that's why they called DrBill Bass and right away, bass
is like that is definitely ahuman bone.
And so come to find out, mattactually killed his wife, who
(27:34):
had been missing for 11 days,because she said 11 days prior,
I'm going to leave you and bewith so-and-so guy, and he
didn't like that.
That was another case that hehad solved.
Okay, I'm gonna talk about thebody farm yay but there's really
nothing to talk about.
Like it it's.
This is his story of how hecame to talk about the body farm
but the body farm is reallyjust where people donate bodies
(27:58):
and they talk about thedecomposition in different areas
.
Like I said, the water.
I talked about shallow gravesin cars.
Courtney (28:05):
Um some are buried under a tree instead of right on
the open so can people justsign up to like donate their
body to body farms?
You can.
Is that different than donatingto like science?
Hannah (28:16):
this is science.
Courtney (28:17):
I feel like you could be very specific, right, but
like there's different kinds ofscience, like make me a cadaver
at a medical school, I'd ratherbe in a body farm, I think.
Hannah (28:26):
I think I do also want to be cremated to become a tree,
though, so I'd like to becremated and shot into space so
I'm very hesitant of cremationnow because there was actually
one of his last stories hetalked about in the book about
how there was this crematoriumdown in the south where they
were not cremating the remainsat all and they ended up finding
(28:47):
like over 200 bodies on thisproperty of different
decomposition of people's bodiesand they weren't cremating
people at all.
Rob (28:56):
So what were they giving, probably?
Courtney (28:59):
some kind of sand or something.
Rob (29:01):
Yeah, oh, yeah, oh.
Courtney (29:02):
Yeah, I also have always had that fear of like and
obviously I've had relativeswho have been cremated, but I
have not obviously gone to theviewing.
I know that you can do that,but I just have not chosen to do
that.
How do they like ensure thatthe whole person is?
Hannah (29:17):
there.
From what I understand aboutwhen they were talking about the
cremation process, it soundslike it's very calculated in,
like how they you know they havethem on the stretcher, they
have them like literally in acardboard box right and that's
stapled on and on a gurney.
They just kind of like pushthem in and they have the
temperature reach to a certainheight where obviously the
(29:39):
staples are gonna come off.
But then they actually makesure with a magnet to make sure
the staples aren't in thecremated remains.
And there's actually like apulverization where they take
the rest of the bones and theyliterally put it in a blender.
Rob (29:54):
It's not a blender, it's a pulverizer.
Hannah (29:56):
But it's you know, they gave the blender as a.
Rob (29:59):
Well, because when you burn a body, it doesn't burn
everything.
The bones are still there.
Courtney (30:04):
The more we talk about cremation, the more I think I'd
like to go to the body farm.
Rob (30:08):
So they have to take the bones and put them inside of
this machine and it pulverizesthem and that's how you get the
powdery substance.
Hannah (30:16):
I mean, that makes sense but it's just not great to
think about.
Something also he actuallyfound calculations for was one
family that he worked with thatthey're like this is the bag
that they gave us of remains andhe's like this is like several
ounces off from what a full bodyfor a male should be.
So the full body for a maleshould have been a little under
eight pounds and that'sdefinitely not.
They had like five, right?
(30:37):
Even a woman is supposed to bearound six and a half to seven
and he actually he actuallyweighed like 50 different bags
of female and male just to seelike what the average was.
So like that was obviouslyreally curious guy yeah, he was.
He's really quite fascinating,he's very thorough, okay, yeah,
so actually the final total thatwas found was 339 bodies on
(30:59):
this property wow I just don'tunderstand what they would stand
to gain.
Courtney (31:02):
Like I'm trying to think like a business scam, wise
they were like one of.
Hannah (31:05):
I think they were the cheapest around and they would
keep the money Okay.
Courtney (31:09):
So, instead of firing it up and going through the
process, they were like, well,just go out to the sandpit.
Rob (31:14):
Yeah.
Hannah (31:15):
Right.
And so when he, dr Bill bass,actually went with some of the
the prosecutors and stuff he'slike you could tell that this
crematorium hasn't been fired upin years.
You could tell if there's nomaintenance to it.
It just it looked torn down,bricks were falling out and at
that point.
Courtney (31:33):
Like who, like our elevators are inspected annually
.
Our crematoriums, yes, yes.
Hannah (31:40):
So there's an inspection you should be getting yearly,
so like if they clearly weren'tgetting it.
Courtney (31:45):
So why was the like business bureau in town like,
yeah, sure, I'll just keep letthem.
They don't have a town permit,but I don't know if it was a
small town.
I don't know if it's because ofthe time maybe they were in on
it I do love a good conspiracytheory, along with my crime so I
thought it.
Hannah (31:58):
It was really fascinating.
So the last quote I'm actuallygoing to leave with guys.
Here I am quoting I thoughtthis was a really good ending to
my episode and to actually kindof understand how weird Bill
Bass was but actually howbrilliant he was at the same
time.
This is after his second wifedied.
He had three wives in total.
Rob (32:19):
All at the same time.
Hannah (32:20):
No.
Courtney (32:21):
His first wife died?
Rob (32:22):
Was he Mormon?
Courtney (32:22):
I'm glad to see Rob's humor is back.
Hannah (32:25):
His first wife had passed, then he had a second
wife that passed, and then hehad his third.
Courtney (32:31):
And nobody thought we should look at this guy and what
he's doing with wives.
Hannah (32:36):
So here's the quote.
At work, by contrast, I wassurrounded by people.
Most of them were dead, mindyou, but they were comforting
all the same.
They had shared their storieswith me and had entered my life.
They were companions who hadnever abandoned me.
Rob (32:50):
It's kind of sad.
Hannah (32:50):
It's sad he was very lonely at that time.
He wrote that, but I just I was.
I loved this book.
I absolutely found it sofascinating, I almost thought.
I missed my calling it shouldhave been an anthropology, but
nevertheless Deathsaker.
I recommend.
Rob (33:06):
So when did he start his first body farm?
Hannah (33:08):
1981.
Rob (33:09):
1981.
Courtney (33:10):
Okay, so they're relatively new in concept.
Rob (33:13):
Yes, and how many body farms are there across the
country?
Hannah (33:18):
I only know about this one.
Rob (33:20):
That's it.
Hannah (33:20):
Yeah, he was a trailblazer.
Rob (33:22):
Wow.
Courtney (33:22):
I wonder if there's something you can Google, is
that Googleable?
Rob (33:25):
Probably I can't do it because I'm holding Skye's face
right now, googleable yeah.
Well, that was great.
That was great.
Hannah, Was it Great?
Courtney (33:34):
history yeah, that was good Courtney.
Yes, I thought it was great.
Rob (33:39):
Excellent.
Courtney (33:40):
I can honestly say I know more about body farms now
than I did before, though Ididn't really spend much time
thinking about them.
I'll be, honest, it's notsomething I thought about a lot.
Rob (33:50):
So we haven't done this in quite a few episodes.
Do we want to do a card?
All right, Pick a card.
Any card, All right.
So we have any card.
Hannah (34:02):
All right, so we have the 10 of spades.
Rob (34:05):
Okay.
Hannah (34:06):
That's spades right.
Courtney (34:06):
Yes, that's a spade I love that Hannah turns it around
to ask every single time.
It's one of the cutest thingsabout Hannah.
Hannah (34:13):
Lennon or Lenny Valerio.
On June 2nd 2018, atapproximately 1.14 am, the
victim was found shot multipletimes lying in the roadway on
Reservoir Street in Holden.
The victim has ties to the mobgang out of Worcester and, of
course, if anyone has any infoabout this case, please call
1-855-MA-SOLVE.
Courtney (34:34):
So sad.
How old is he?
He's a handsome kid.
Hannah (34:39):
Does not say but he can't be more than 20.
Rob (34:41):
Yeah, that's really sad.
It's very sad, so sad.
All right, well, thank you,hannah, thanks guys.
Courtney (34:49):
Thank you, Hannah.
Rob (34:51):
And it was great to be back on the microphone here.
Hannah (34:54):
Yeah, someone needs to stop being so busy.
Rob (34:57):
Well, you know what?
Every time I go play Airsoftwith Pizza man, you guys decide
to record, and then I miss out.
Hannah (35:06):
You know what the fun thing is.
Rob (35:07):
What's that?
Hannah (35:08):
Cousin Mark talked about Pizza man.
If anyone was listening to ourlast couple episodes, he has no
idea who Pizza man is.
It's the best.
Courtney (35:14):
It's the best that we keep the identity hidden.
I think it's so funny.
Hannah (35:17):
He's like I want more episodes of Pizza man.
Courtney (35:19):
And Kevin Cordy's like do you know who it is?
He's like no, and then I goghost on our conversation.
Rob (35:25):
Sorry, Cousin Mark, don't take it personally.
Courtney (35:28):
That's how I text everybody All right.
Well, thank you guys?
Rob (35:31):
Yes, thank you, I don't know what.
I'm doing next, but All right,well, we can't wait.
Hannah (35:35):
Bye guys, bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, hannah, and co-hosted by me,
courtney, and it's produced byRob Fitzpatrick.
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
(35:57):
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
Oh my god, you want to hear a funny story.
Rob (00:02):
Sure.
Hannah (00:02):
Okay.
So before we even left John'sapartment, moi gets into the
driver's seat of mom's car andyou know how mom sometimes likes
to put the brake on, like theemergency brake, anywhere she
goes.
So I was checking for it, so Iwas flipping all these things
underneath, I popped the hood.
Rob (00:19):
Of course you did.
Courtney (00:20):
Open the gas tank.
Rob (00:21):
I opened the gas tank.
Courtney (00:21):
And dislodged the trunk, and do you know who had
to get out and fix them all?
Rob (00:26):
You.
Courtney (00:26):
Courtney Elvey.
She's sitting there grippingthe wheel in both hands.
She's like I think I popped thehood.
I think I popped the hood.
What do I do?
What do I do?
I'm like get out and close thehood.
Was the red light on the dashand said the brake was on, it
was the face of oh shit, Ididn't even check that part,
meaning she probably made me getout and look like a clown car
in Boston for no particularpurpose.
Hannah (00:48):
But Courtney is like my woman crush.
She gets out there, she popsthe hood, she slams it back down
.
I'm like that's my bitch.
Ok, hi, I'm Hannah and I'mCourtney.
(01:09):
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (01:14):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is.
Hannah (01:21):
Wicked.
Rob (01:21):
Wanderings Hi Courtney, hi Hannah, hi Rob, hello Hi Skye
Woof.
Courtney (01:44):
And hi, Kenzie.
Kenzie's been kind of meanlately.
Hannah (01:47):
Welcome to the episode on the body farms that Rob had
requested.
Rob (01:52):
Excellent.
Hannah (01:52):
I picked up this book which I did give five stars
because it's fantabulous.
I was intrigued, I was drawn in, I wanted to reread it again.
I want more.
Courtney (02:01):
All of the elements because you are very stingy with
your five stars.
Thank you.
Can I ask a quick questionbefore you get into it?
Yes, because Rob was the onewho suggested it.
Rob, what made you think likebody farms?
Rob (02:12):
I've always been intrigued about the whole body farm and
how they use the science of thebody farm to figure out
different ways bodies decompose.
And they use that science whenyou know they're doing like an
autopsy on a body.
So I've always been intriguedby that, even way before I even
met Hannah.
Courtney (02:30):
So do you think that you've done enough independent
research that you might actuallyknow more about this than
Hannah?
Rob (02:34):
I mean, I've never done research on it, I only know what
I've seen on TV or heard onpodcasts and stuff, what's gonna
be interesting is I actuallyhave questions asking.
Hannah (02:43):
If you guys have the answers, cool, we're here for it
.
We'll see if Rob does know morethan me.
So the book I read is calledDeath's Acre, inside the
Legendary Forensic Lab, the BodyFarm, where the Dead Do Tell
Tales, and it's by Dr Bill Bass,who is a famous anthropologist,
and John Jefferson who helpedhim write it.
(03:03):
It's absolutely incrediblefamous anthropologist and John
Jefferson who helped him writeit.
It's absolutely incredible.
And of course I'm going to quotefrom it guys, and here I am
quoting.
So this book was really aboutDr Bill Bass and his journey of
how the body farm came to be,how he got into anthropology,
but also the cases that reallystuck out in his mind of how the
research that him and hisstudents have done that have
(03:25):
helped, you know, the DAs andthe prosecutor in cases, and
it's really quite incredible.
So it's kind of going to goeverywhere and I apologize, but
like that's kind of how the bookwas.
It was all of a sudden he'slike, yeah, and then you know,
my wife died, but here I am, youknow, digging up Native
American remains and it goes onfrom there.
So it's probably going to seemlike it's back and forth, but I
just tried to pick out thethings that I thought were very
(03:45):
fascinating.
Courtney (03:46):
I think it's hard to do an episode when a book does
that too.
The Babysitter was one of thosebooks that did that, where it
was like the author's ownpersonal stuff.
And then in comes the actualhistory too.
I mean, it is actual historyfor that person.
But when you're talking aboutyou're not doing an episode on
the doctor, You're doing anepisode on the topic.
It is hard to kind of get inthere and siphon through it.
Exactly so bear with Bear withBear with.
(04:10):
I will try the best I can.
Sounds like a new, like EDMtrack Bear with Bear with Bear
with.
Rob (04:16):
It comes from a British show that we watched a few years
ago.
Oh, miranda, yeah, that's agreat show.
Courtney (04:22):
How can she remember stuff like that that fast Me?
Yeah, because I'm a weirdo, butother times I'll say something
to you and you're like what?
Hannah (04:29):
I just watched you rap a whole Eminem track on the drive
.
Courtney (04:33):
It was therapeutic.
Rob (04:35):
Well, music and lyrics come from a different side of the
brain than actual speech.
Courtney (04:40):
High five.
Us ADHD people, we do that partreally well.
We do.
Hannah (04:46):
Don't ask us what we, you know, thought first thing in
the morning or what kind oftoothpaste we have, though,
because we won't know so dr billbass, he started off actually
in counseling for his schooling,um, and then he took an
anthropology class and heabsolutely fell in love with it.
He got accepted to harvard buthe did not take it, meaning he
just he decided, no, I'm notgoing to do that.
I want to go to the Universityof Pennsylvania, which I think
(05:08):
it's rare for people to just sayno to Harvard.
Courtney (05:11):
Yeah, harvard probably took that rejection hard,
probably.
What do you mean?
We accepted you.
Why are you not coming Right,especially?
Hannah (05:16):
after how famous Bill Bass became anyways, but he
wanted to learn from Dr Krogmanand he actually was very famous
bone detective in the 40s and50s.
So something really interestingis is that dr crogman actually
shattered his left leg from afall and so him and dr crogman
actually lived in the same area,so they ended up like commuting
(05:38):
.
He would help him bring in, buteven after his leg was healed
they ended up staying partnersin crime on the way to work.
So he ended up getting likeextra lessons on their drive-ins
, which I thought was so coolthe vip lesson right?
so okay, here's some fun factsthat come in childhood.
Courtney (05:54):
Skeletons are androgynous, meaning you cannot
tell what sex they are ohinteresting, right makes sense,
I thought that was fascinatingand I feel like people don't
talk about that very oftenbecause usually in the cases
that we've reviewed, when therehave been children, there's more
than just skeletal remains tobe able to identify those things
.
Hannah (06:13):
Right.
So the first story he kind oftalked about was going to South
Dakota and helping with theexcavation of the Irikaro tribe,
and something I found reallyinteresting was how their graves
are different.
So when we think about a gravenowadays you have this like
rectangular shape right theirgraves.
They would actually make around pit, put the body in so
(06:36):
their knees are up to theirchest and they fold their arms,
then they actually so put somedirt in, then they put leaves
and sticks and then soil on top.
Courtney (06:46):
That does not seem like a comfortable way to rest
for the rest of your life.
Hannah (06:49):
It doesn't, but I don't know why they made them circular
.
I don't know if it just savedspace, I don't know, but anyways
, I thought that was interesting.
If there was a cultural pieceto the circle, probably.
And something else interestingabout Native American remains is
that they were being collected,like from everywhere.
But in 1990, congress actuallypassed a law.
They could no longer keepNative American bones to be
(07:10):
collected, so there was a hugecollection in one museum and
they weren't allowed to do thatanymore.
Courtney (07:15):
What did they do with them after that point?
Hannah (07:17):
They actually got sent back to the tribes.
Oh okay, it was the tribes thatactually put forth the Congress
.
Courtney (07:22):
Like you, can't just like take our ancestors and hold
them literally hostage.
Hannah (07:27):
Literally.
One good point that he makes isthat bones remember.
Have you guys ever broken abone?
Yes, no.
I haven't either.
Rob (07:36):
And that's why we got married Terrible.
Hannah (07:40):
I guess, I'm unmarriable now, what bones have you broken
?
Courtney (07:44):
I broke my fibula on my left leg and then I did break
my left, was it?
No, it was my right baby pinkytoe.
I don't know exactly whichphalange bone it was but it was
completely off the side of myfoot.
Oh God yeah.
Hannah (07:58):
So your bones are going to remember.
So when you are just a skeletonSorry, courtney, love you but
when you're just a skeletonthey're going to see where the
bones have, like, basicallymatched up again with a break,
isn't that?
Courtney (08:10):
cool, it makes sense.
I mean, also for me there'sgoing to be a ginormous hunk of
metal over my left ankle thathad to be reconstructed so
perfect.
I've got like I think it's fivescrews and a steel plate.
That's maybe like two and ahalf inches or three inches.
Hannah (08:23):
So can you go through metal detectors in an airport.
Courtney (08:25):
Um, I can.
Sometimes it goes off,sometimes it doesn't.
I usually just like pull mypant leg up and don't wear a
tall sock that day and be likelook, you can literally feel my
skin, you can feel the platethrough it, and when they wave
it over my naked ankle they cansee like it's going off.
It probably is.
I mean, I probably should haveone of those cards from my
wallet, but I just don't.
Interesting, yeah, so if youever try to fly anywhere with me
(08:46):
, be aware of that.
Hannah (08:47):
So for the first question when examining bones,
you need to start with the bigfour.
So you have a skeleton in frontof you.
What do you think are the bigfour that you need to come up
with first?
Femur, okay.
Besides the bone, like toidentify the person oh, the
skull no, don't think bones.
What will help you say bones?
(09:09):
you have so, yes, you have afull skeleton in front of you,
but what are the four?
So, if you have to identifythis person, right, what are the
four that you probably wouldneed to come up with?
First, teeth.
Okay, I'll give you a hint.
So you have to have find theirsex no, that was gonna be my
next thing okay, what else does?
They were no race oh age.
Courtney (09:30):
Let's see, we were totally wrong on this we were
thinking we want to see themteeth rob and I get it.
Hannah (09:36):
Now their age, so sex race age and stature stature
they can figure out, like thestature between like two to
three inches, based off oflooking at your legs I have no
clue what you're talking about,like your height and the way you
carry your, your build.
I think right oh so you are asix foot male, correct?
(09:57):
Yes so just looking at your leg, they could figure out like oh,
he's probably between, like youknow, 5, 10 and 6 1 oh, so they
don't need your whole skeletonto determine your height
interesting that fascinating.
So, looking at race right, doyou know what bone or structure
a bone you can look at to figureout what race someone is?
Courtney (10:19):
uh the pelvic bone wrong I want to say it was
someplace in the facial bone,wasn't it?
It's the skull.
Hannah (10:25):
So you're thinking of the sex, right, because women's
hips are a lot different than amale's.
I should say a woman you can'twith children, obviously, but me
and Courtney would be known.
Okay, they're a woman becausebased off their hip bones.
So we have three basicdifferent kinds of races that
you can look at.
You can have a Caucasoid, whichis white people, european.
(10:47):
You have Mongoloids, which isEskimo people of Asian descent,
native Americans, and then youhave Negroids, which is people
of African or Black descent.
Rob (10:58):
Okay.
Hannah (11:00):
Something else interesting when you look at the
skull is another difference youcan tell is the noses.
So there is a smaller andbigger nasal passages.
So they would be smaller forpeople of white descent because
of the cold air and they want tokeep the cold from getting into
the lungs.
But they're bigger nasalpassages for people of, you know
(11:22):
, black, descent of Africa andthings because to let the heat
in so they can basically a fan,like an internal fan for them,
which I thought was reallyinteresting.
Rob (11:31):
So not the heat, but the air.
Yes, let air in.
Yes.
Hannah (11:35):
Yeah, so the skull density is also something
Interesting.
White skulls are less dense.
An example that he gave is thatyou don't see many.
You know black males or blackfemales being Olympic swimmers
and winning.
Because, there's actually.
It's like their skulls aredenser than ours, so it's harder
for them to swim Not swim, butlike swim fast.
Rob (11:57):
Oh.
Hannah (11:58):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does so.
Dr Bass this is an interestingfact would take bones that still
had skin, muscle et cetera onthem and boil them on his stove
at home.
That's disgusting.
He actually had to buy hisfirst wife two stoves because
she was like absolutely not.
Like this is disgusting, whichI thought was weird.
Courtney (12:17):
I feel like Cousin Mark would get a real rile out
of that because he's immediatelythinking in his head.
I know you are, mark.
You're thinking about the handand my discomfort with gloves.
I know you are thinking aboutit actually came up in this book
how they would take the skinoff and I thought of you when
they would put the I want to beknown for something other than,
like meat hands.
Can I just be known forsomething else please?
Anything, I'm begging you guys.
Hannah (12:38):
So Bass starts being called to crime scenes and Dr
Bass considers the camera themost important part of the crime
scene equipment.
Why?
Rob (12:45):
Well, because it documents what the crime scene was during
that actual time.
Courtney (12:55):
Right, it would show the bones where they naturally
were, is what I would imagine asa photographer.
I would want to see them theway they naturally were when
they were discovered, becauseonce you take them in for
cleaning, they're not going tobe in the same pattern that they
were in the way I would thinkabout okay I think that's what
rob was trying to get at, andonce you contaminate a scene,
right, whether you have littlebooties on or not.
Like it's done, right, it's overthose first crisp pictures are
like when this scene, like hesaid, like it's pristine,
(13:17):
there's nothing else on it so heactually had a student that,
like that was his thing.
Hannah (13:21):
He took the pictures and when in doubt, take more was
kind of his motto.
Yes, so actually one crimescene that they actually did.
The pictures were what caughtthe footprint of the killer.
They quartered off the scene,they called the anthropologist
and his students started takingpictures.
He went to the basement andthere was like this layer of
dust on the floor and heactually caught the footprint of
(13:42):
the killer, which actuallyhelped win the case which is
surprising too, because I thinka lot of people think, like
crime scene photography, there'sno skill to it.
Courtney (13:49):
Yep, I mean, I don't.
I feel like even just takingphotos for a hobby, there's a
skill to every kind of differentthing you're going to try to
capture.
If you had had the lightingwrong, you wouldn't have seen a
footprint in the dust at all,especially in a basement.
Hannah (14:06):
Yep, especially in a basement.
Yep, dr bass also had a burnvictim.
Uh, so when bodies burn Ithought that's interesting the
arms and legs act like kindlingthey actually like shrivel up
towards the body.
If you have a victim wheretheir arms and legs are straight
, it's actually a goodindication that they are
probably restrained ohinteresting.
I really like that.
So, thinking about cases you'veprobably seen on TV and stuff,
I'm trying to like remember ifI've ever seen how the Arms
(14:27):
Trivel and stuff, but I don'tknow.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.
Courtney (14:30):
I don't feel like I've often like come across that,
whether it's in shows or inanything I've been reading,
where they talk about the bonesspecifically.
There is one book I wonder if Ican remember.
All that Remains maybe is thename of it.
It's also about bones.
That's on my TBR but I haven'tread it.
Oh yeah, that's on mine.
Hannah (14:45):
It's up there.
Courtney (14:46):
I started to read it and it was a really good book,
but I lost somebody in my familyright at the same time that I
was trying to read it.
Hannah (14:59):
And it was just a little bit too much death for the
personal situation that I was in.
So soon, dr Bass.
Complete difference between theKansas bodies which had these,
like this, clean sun bleachedall the bones, and then the
Tennessee bodies which they wererotting and maggot laden why.
Courtney (15:16):
Soil Soil differences.
Rob (15:18):
Well, if it's sun bleached, I mean obviously it's getting
more sun.
Hannah (15:21):
Right.
So the environment Right.
It was a lot hotter and drierwhere he was in Kansas and then
he got to Tennessee where it's alot, it's a moisture air.
Rob (15:31):
So I thought that was also interesting.
Hannah (15:33):
So, oh my gosh, this story got me.
So there was a fisherman and hefound a floating corpse with no
head.
So the local newspaper thismust have been a small town put
out basically like a bolo right.
They put out the story andthey're like hey, hey, if you
found a head, can you pleasebring it to the sheriff's
department as if that wouldn'thave been the first thing
(15:53):
without somebody telling youthat you would have done with a
head.
Courtney (15:55):
Yeah, and first of all , don't bring it to the
sheriff's department, just likeyou were saying, leave it where
it is and call the sheriff'sdepartment.
Hannah (16:02):
Oh god one skull was brought in and it was old and
you can just tell like okay,this isn't the most recent
fisherman.
It was also not white male,which is what they were looking
for.
Bass was intrigued.
He's like well, whose fuckingskull?
Courtney (16:15):
is this If you find a body, could you bring that to
the sheriff's department also?
We've got a real problem cominghere.
Hannah (16:22):
So they ended up finding out that a junkyard dealer had
it because he got a car from alocal of some sort and the skull
was in a five gallon paintbucket in the car's engine
compartment.
Rob (16:35):
Engine compartment, just the skull.
Courtney (16:38):
How would you even fit a bucket in an engine
compartment?
That's what I was wondering.
Hannah (16:41):
I don't know if it was a really old car.
Courtney (16:43):
It must have been, or maybe one of the ones where they
have like the engine in theback?
That's what I was wondering.
Rear engine.
Hannah (16:50):
So they ended up finding out that the skull was from
World War II.
Wow, and the car owner was aWorld War II vet and he found a
crashed Japanese plane, saw theskull and took it as a trophy
from the war.
The man was Japanese that wasdied, so he took the skull.
He made a hole in the bottom toput a light bulb through to
(17:10):
make halloween decoration.
Oh god, apparently this wascommon, where our vets from this
war actually would take skullshome as well there's a lot wrong
with that statement.
Courtney (17:22):
Yes, there's a lot wrong with that statement there
is definitely a lot, of, a lotof uh, questionable things there
very questionable, but it'sjust interesting to me.
Hannah (17:31):
Like all the way, in tennessee you have a skull of a
man that was from japan, thatfought in the war, like that, to
me, is like you're desecratinga body like, yeah, I don't care
if you're at war or not, that'sjust not there's got to be some
bad karma associated with makingsomeone's actual head into a
Halloween decoration.
There's got to be so the BodyFarm was started in 1981, and
(17:54):
Bass was about to embark on someamazing scientific discoveries.
And of course he didn't do iton his own.
He had his students, which theyreally branched out into, like
studying bugs and like goingfrom larvae to maggots to flies
and how long it takes for bodiesto decompose.
They were putting them in watersoil that wasn't like maybe two
(18:17):
inches deep.
They were putting them in carsto see if the heat of the car
was making it worse, like theywere trying every which way.
And one research avenue wasmaggots.
I know Gross, not a great topic.
I know, guys, if you're eatingyou might want to finish eating.
First the larvae that hatchfrom the flies.
(18:38):
They lay an egg right, and DrBass and his team actually put
orange dots on flies as well tosee if.
Well, one, how would they findthe corpse right?
Would they find the corpse?
And two, if they would go backto the corpse again, or is it
just like a one-time thing forthem?
So they lay their eggs, theyturn into maggots, they feed on
(18:59):
the body, they become flies.
Okay, which is also anotherreason, like if you have flies
in your food, like in the summer, I just think like you know, we
always we always push them away.
But I'm like, oh, like secondthought.
Courtney (19:11):
those flies could have been on dead bodies Exactly.
Rob (19:14):
Yeah, exactly.
But the thing is with flieswhen they land, they always
throw up where they land,because they use the the acid in
the throw up to break downwhatever they're going to be
eating.
So if they land on your food,they're throwing up and that
acid is landing on your food sothey can consume it.
(19:36):
So, yes, it is disgusting whenflies land on your food.
For that reason and becausethey were probably just eating a
dead animal or something likethat, or poop or poop probably
just eating a dead animal orsomething like that, or poop or
poop and now they're throwing itup on your food.
Hannah (19:52):
So let's talk about body decomposition.
There's three stages that abody goes through.
Can anyone tell me what theyare?
Courtney (19:59):
decomp one, two and three.
No, I'm gonna have to say Idon't know anything about
decomposition.
So you, you have a fresh body.
Hannah (20:07):
You have a bloated body, so that's when the gases are
coming through Yep.
Rob (20:12):
So we right now would be considered fresh bodies.
Hannah (20:15):
No, because we're not dead.
Rob (20:17):
If we were dead, right now we would be considered fresh
bodies.
Courtney (20:20):
Yes, because we are freshly dead.
Rob (20:22):
Yes, okay, okay.
Hannah (20:24):
So fresh, bloated and then decay.
Courtney (20:30):
I feel, a little bloated I was just gonna say I
think I could also be partiallybloated, so how long do they
last in each like category?
Rob (20:37):
I'm sure it depends on the weather and it depends on where
they are.
Hannah (20:41):
So if you have a body in the everglades of florida and a
trunk, it's gonna be completelydifferent than somebody that's
dead in the desert in Las Vegas.
Rob (20:51):
Oh, versus a body that's dead on Mount Everest.
Courtney (20:55):
Exactly, or in a snowbank here in New England
right now.
Rob (20:58):
Exactly.
Courtney (20:59):
Frozen in a little time capsule.
Rob (21:01):
Fun fact about Mount Everest If you die up there,
that's where you stay.
They do not remove the bodiesand bring them back down.
Courtney (21:09):
It's a trophy.
You get to stay there.
Hopefully you were doingsomething like coolish.
Rob (21:15):
You were hiking Mount Everest.
Courtney (21:16):
Yeah, but you want like an action shot, not like a
pooping in the woods shot orsomething.
Rob (21:21):
Oh jeez, no Sorry.
Courtney (21:22):
I'm bringing fecal matter into this quite a bit
today.
Three stages of bodydecomposition.
I'm bringing fecal matter intothis quite a bit today.
Three stages of bodydecomposition.
Hannah (21:28):
So there's actually a formula that they can do.
So if they find out like, okay,this guy died in New England.
You know, it was 32 degrees fortwo days and then all of a
sudden we had a 50 degree day,there's actually a calculation
they can do to figure out whenthe guy died.
So that's how they figured thatout.
Rob (21:46):
Very fascinating they find.
They find out what thetemperature of the body is at
that point in time, and thenthey put that into the
calculation.
Hannah (21:55):
Well, this is this is different than the than the
liver temperature.
Oh yeah, this is different.
Rob (22:00):
Okay.
Hannah (22:01):
Just saying that he actually didn't talk about that.
So this guy is ananthropologist, right, he's
dealing with the bones.
You're talking more of like aperson that does the autopsy
they would check the liver buthe's not doing that.
There was actually a story inthe book.
He actually said there was acrime scene, there were several
bodies that had decomposed orwhatever, and there was actually
a fresh body, and he's likethis is too fresh for me.
Rob (22:37):
You need to send top seed like that.
Hannah (22:38):
That's not what that one's got organs still yeah,
that one's not mine, so fun factabout lime.
Does anyone know about lime?
Rob (22:41):
lime disease.
Nope, what's something wealways know about crime scenes
in lime?
Courtney (22:44):
like, uh, the green citrus lime, granny Lime.
It doesn't that like break downbodies.
Hannah (22:49):
Yes, but no, he actually says lime does reduce the odor
of decomposition but alsoreduces the rate of
decomposition, so it'll helppeople not smell it, but it's
not going to help.
Courtney (23:02):
All those people who were like I need a bucket of
lime for this.
Well, that's how they gotcaught.
Huh, stupid, stupid.
Hannah (23:09):
Okay, so we have a case?
Rob (23:11):
How about acid in the bathtub?
Courtney (23:15):
Don't call your plumber after.
We just talked about this.
Yeah, we did with Mark Cousin.
Rob (23:18):
Mark talked about it but the acid will not break down
your bathtub.
Hannah (23:23):
Yeah, but then you have stuff going down your drain.
Rob (23:27):
Stuff going in the drain.
Yeah, you still yeah.
But then you have stuff goingin the drain.
Yeah, you still have the bonesto go in?
Courtney (23:30):
no, because it would break the acid breaks down
everything, but not to acomplete liquid, the way that
some people assume.
Rob (23:34):
It's still clogged have you ever watched breaking bad?
Hannah (23:37):
okay, I couldn't get past the first season because it
was bad, breaking very bad no,it was great see, I couldn't get
through it either court, so Iwas like oh my, my gosh, they're
making meth again.
Courtney (23:47):
Wow.
Rob (23:48):
Better Call Saul, which was a prequel, was actually better
than Breaking Bad, but BreakingBad was pretty good.
Hannah (23:54):
I have a case.
Rob (23:55):
Case number two.
Hannah (23:58):
Terry Ramsberg, not been seen in two years.
Rob (24:02):
Uh-oh.
Hannah (24:02):
Yeah, funny right, never good.
So Terry had actually gonemissing around January 1989.
He went to work, work, nevercame home.
So not long after lily may, hiswife had filed a missing
persons case.
She then filed divorce shortlythereafter on the grounds of
abandonment.
She then remained in the housebecause she's like, oh, maybe
(24:24):
terry will return.
Okay, so terry's dad this isfishy.
He went, just abandoned hisfamily.
It just didn't sound like hisson.
So he decided to go snooping.
And he went snooping in thehouse and, wouldn't you know, he
went to the crawl space.
And what does he find in thecrawl?
Courtney (24:41):
terry, he found terry so I'm sorry, wait a minute.
Wait a minute, back it up backit up dead body, terry.
Rob (24:48):
Yeah okay.
Courtney (24:49):
So terry's ex-wife at that point right, because she
filed for a divorce, thendecided she wanted to stay in
the house where the dead bodyalready was, in case he decided
to return.
That's weird.
If you're divorcing somebody,you're like nah, you abandoned
me, bye, right which obviouslyshe was trying to make sure that
no one found the body I meanthere's got be.
I can't understand people whoput bodies in their walls or in
their house.
You live there, for Christ'ssake.
(25:10):
People are going to notice, andif there's a body in there, who
do you think they're looking at?
Rob (25:14):
Exactly.
Courtney (25:14):
Exactly.
It's definitely not somebodyelse.
Exactly.
Hannah (25:17):
Oh my goodness, and she married very shortly after.
Rob (25:21):
That's like with the local we covered, Stuart Welding.
He was putting the dead bodiesin his backyard.
Courtney (25:27):
Why Seems like the first place somebody would look.
Hannah (25:31):
I just have a fun quote from him.
Courtney (25:34):
And here I am quoting Basements.
Hannah (25:36):
Why are crime labs and morgues always in basements?
Why not on the upper top floorwith big corner windows looking
out across the city or thecountryside?
Just because some of us like tolook at bodies and bones, that
doesn't mean we wouldn'tappreciate a nice few-hour
window every now and then.
Courtney (25:50):
Because they don't want people looking in from
outside.
Duh.
Rob (25:53):
Or they don't want the sun to mess up stuff.
Courtney (25:56):
I mean, or they just don't like the overhead light.
Hannah (26:02):
You can get windows that , with certain reflection, that
you still can look out but nopeople can look in so what's the
reason?
There is it.
He was just going on a rant andI appreciated the quote I mean
to be fair.
Courtney (26:10):
I do also hear creepy things about addicts.
Very often I have a.
There's a negative connotationfor me with the word crawl space
.
After how many true crimethings we've done because
there's never not a dead body inthe crawl space?
Hannah (26:21):
yeah, true.
So another fun fact like withthe lime, fire is not the
easiest way to get rid of a bodythat I could have told you yeah
it really is not.
So he obviously said the fatterthe person is, you know, the
easier it is.
But that just it's not, itdoesn't really it's not a
complete job.
Rob (26:39):
The fat turns into fuel for the fire, right?
So if you're's not, it doesn'treally it's not a complete job.
The fat turns into fuel for thefire, right?
Courtney (26:44):
so if you're gonna burn somebody, don't let it be a
skinny one yeah my last case.
Hannah (26:48):
I'm gonna talk to you guys about case three this case
in 1997 in tennessee and dr basswas called to help with it
because, you know, the policedepartment wasn't so sure about
it.
They ended up at a house of aman named matt rogers and right
away bass sees a burn barrel, asyou do in the south, with a
bone sticking out of it, andmatt, who is the perpetrator,
(27:10):
says oh that bone.
You know, my dog caught it inthe woods and it's a goat bone
goat yeah like greatest of alltime bone, tom Brady bone.
So he found the bone right andpolice department didn't believe
him.
So that's why they called DrBill Bass and right away, bass
is like that is definitely ahuman bone.
And so come to find out, mattactually killed his wife, who
(27:34):
had been missing for 11 days,because she said 11 days prior,
I'm going to leave you and bewith so-and-so guy, and he
didn't like that.
That was another case that hehad solved.
Okay, I'm gonna talk about thebody farm yay but there's really
nothing to talk about.
Like it it's.
This is his story of how hecame to talk about the body farm
but the body farm is reallyjust where people donate bodies
(27:58):
and they talk about thedecomposition in different areas
.
Like I said, the water.
I talked about shallow gravesin cars.
Courtney (28:05):
Um some are buried under a tree instead of right on
the open so can people justsign up to like donate their
body to body farms?
You can.
Is that different than donatingto like science?
Hannah (28:16):
this is science.
Courtney (28:17):
I feel like you could be very specific, right, but
like there's different kinds ofscience, like make me a cadaver
at a medical school, I'd ratherbe in a body farm, I think.
Hannah (28:26):
I think I do also want to be cremated to become a tree,
though, so I'd like to becremated and shot into space so
I'm very hesitant of cremationnow because there was actually
one of his last stories hetalked about in the book about
how there was this crematoriumdown in the south where they
were not cremating the remainsat all and they ended up finding
(28:47):
like over 200 bodies on thisproperty of different
decomposition of people's bodiesand they weren't cremating
people at all.
Rob (28:56):
So what were they giving, probably?
Courtney (28:59):
some kind of sand or something.
Rob (29:01):
Yeah, oh, yeah, oh.
Courtney (29:02):
Yeah, I also have always had that fear of like and
obviously I've had relativeswho have been cremated, but I
have not obviously gone to theviewing.
I know that you can do that,but I just have not chosen to do
that.
How do they like ensure thatthe whole person is?
Hannah (29:17):
there.
From what I understand aboutwhen they were talking about the
cremation process, it soundslike it's very calculated in,
like how they you know they havethem on the stretcher, they
have them like literally in acardboard box right and that's
stapled on and on a gurney.
They just kind of like pushthem in and they have the
temperature reach to a certainheight where obviously the
(29:39):
staples are gonna come off.
But then they actually makesure with a magnet to make sure
the staples aren't in thecremated remains.
And there's actually like apulverization where they take
the rest of the bones and theyliterally put it in a blender.
Rob (29:54):
It's not a blender, it's a pulverizer.
Hannah (29:56):
But it's you know, they gave the blender as a.
Rob (29:59):
Well, because when you burn a body, it doesn't burn
everything.
The bones are still there.
Courtney (30:04):
The more we talk about cremation, the more I think I'd
like to go to the body farm.
Rob (30:08):
So they have to take the bones and put them inside of
this machine and it pulverizesthem and that's how you get the
powdery substance.
Hannah (30:16):
I mean, that makes sense but it's just not great to
think about.
Something also he actuallyfound calculations for was one
family that he worked with thatthey're like this is the bag
that they gave us of remains andhe's like this is like several
ounces off from what a full bodyfor a male should be.
So the full body for a maleshould have been a little under
eight pounds and that'sdefinitely not.
They had like five, right?
(30:37):
Even a woman is supposed to bearound six and a half to seven
and he actually he actuallyweighed like 50 different bags
of female and male just to seelike what the average was.
So like that was obviouslyreally curious guy yeah, he was.
He's really quite fascinating,he's very thorough, okay, yeah,
so actually the final total thatwas found was 339 bodies on
(30:59):
this property wow I just don'tunderstand what they would stand
to gain.
Courtney (31:02):
Like I'm trying to think like a business scam, wise
they were like one of.
Hannah (31:05):
I think they were the cheapest around and they would
keep the money Okay.
Courtney (31:09):
So, instead of firing it up and going through the
process, they were like, well,just go out to the sandpit.
Rob (31:14):
Yeah.
Hannah (31:15):
Right.
And so when he, dr Bill bass,actually went with some of the
the prosecutors and stuff he'slike you could tell that this
crematorium hasn't been fired upin years.
You could tell if there's nomaintenance to it.
It just it looked torn down,bricks were falling out and at
that point.
Courtney (31:33):
Like who, like our elevators are inspected annually
.
Our crematoriums, yes, yes.
Hannah (31:40):
So there's an inspection you should be getting yearly,
so like if they clearly weren'tgetting it.
Courtney (31:45):
So why was the like business bureau in town like,
yeah, sure, I'll just keep letthem.
They don't have a town permit,but I don't know if it was a
small town.
I don't know if it's because ofthe time maybe they were in on
it I do love a good conspiracytheory, along with my crime so I
thought it.
Hannah (31:58):
It was really fascinating.
So the last quote I'm actuallygoing to leave with guys.
Here I am quoting I thoughtthis was a really good ending to
my episode and to actually kindof understand how weird Bill
Bass was but actually howbrilliant he was at the same
time.
This is after his second wifedied.
He had three wives in total.
Rob (32:19):
All at the same time.
Hannah (32:20):
No.
Courtney (32:21):
His first wife died?
Rob (32:22):
Was he Mormon?
Courtney (32:22):
I'm glad to see Rob's humor is back.
Hannah (32:25):
His first wife had passed, then he had a second
wife that passed, and then hehad his third.
Courtney (32:31):
And nobody thought we should look at this guy and what
he's doing with wives.
Hannah (32:36):
So here's the quote.
At work, by contrast, I wassurrounded by people.
Most of them were dead, mindyou, but they were comforting
all the same.
They had shared their storieswith me and had entered my life.
They were companions who hadnever abandoned me.
Rob (32:50):
It's kind of sad.
Hannah (32:50):
It's sad he was very lonely at that time.
He wrote that, but I just I was.
I loved this book.
I absolutely found it sofascinating, I almost thought.
I missed my calling it shouldhave been an anthropology, but
nevertheless Deathsaker.
I recommend.
Rob (33:06):
So when did he start his first body farm?
Hannah (33:08):
1981.
Rob (33:09):
1981.
Courtney (33:10):
Okay, so they're relatively new in concept.
Rob (33:13):
Yes, and how many body farms are there across the
country?
Hannah (33:18):
I only know about this one.
Rob (33:20):
That's it.
Hannah (33:20):
Yeah, he was a trailblazer.
Rob (33:22):
Wow.
Courtney (33:22):
I wonder if there's something you can Google, is
that Googleable?
Rob (33:25):
Probably I can't do it because I'm holding Skye's face
right now, googleable yeah.
Well, that was great.
That was great.
Hannah, Was it Great?
Courtney (33:34):
history yeah, that was good Courtney.
Yes, I thought it was great.
Rob (33:39):
Excellent.
Courtney (33:40):
I can honestly say I know more about body farms now
than I did before, though Ididn't really spend much time
thinking about them.
I'll be, honest, it's notsomething I thought about a lot.
Rob (33:50):
So we haven't done this in quite a few episodes.
Do we want to do a card?
All right, Pick a card.
Any card, All right.
So we have any card.
Hannah (34:02):
All right, so we have the 10 of spades.
Rob (34:05):
Okay.
Hannah (34:06):
That's spades right.
Courtney (34:06):
Yes, that's a spade I love that Hannah turns it around
to ask every single time.
It's one of the cutest thingsabout Hannah.
Hannah (34:13):
Lennon or Lenny Valerio.
On June 2nd 2018, atapproximately 1.14 am, the
victim was found shot multipletimes lying in the roadway on
Reservoir Street in Holden.
The victim has ties to the mobgang out of Worcester and, of
course, if anyone has any infoabout this case, please call
1-855-MA-SOLVE.
Courtney (34:34):
So sad.
How old is he?
He's a handsome kid.
Hannah (34:39):
Does not say but he can't be more than 20.
Rob (34:41):
Yeah, that's really sad.
It's very sad, so sad.
All right, well, thank you,hannah, thanks guys.
Courtney (34:49):
Thank you, Hannah.
Rob (34:51):
And it was great to be back on the microphone here.
Hannah (34:54):
Yeah, someone needs to stop being so busy.
Rob (34:57):
Well, you know what?
Every time I go play Airsoftwith Pizza man, you guys decide
to record, and then I miss out.
Hannah (35:06):
You know what the fun thing is.
Rob (35:07):
What's that?
Hannah (35:08):
Cousin Mark talked about Pizza man.
If anyone was listening to ourlast couple episodes, he has no
idea who Pizza man is.
It's the best.
Courtney (35:14):
It's the best that we keep the identity hidden.
I think it's so funny.
Hannah (35:17):
He's like I want more episodes of Pizza man.
Courtney (35:19):
And Kevin Cordy's like do you know who it is?
He's like no, and then I goghost on our conversation.
Rob (35:25):
Sorry, Cousin Mark, don't take it personally.
Courtney (35:28):
That's how I text everybody All right.
Well, thank you guys?
Rob (35:31):
Yes, thank you, I don't know what.
I'm doing next, but All right,well, we can't wait.
Hannah (35:35):
Bye guys, bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, hannah, and co-hosted by me,
courtney, and it's produced byRob Fitzpatrick.
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
(35:57):
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
wandering.
Thank you.
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