March 12, 2025 • 41 mins
The Oakland County Child Killer case remains one of America's most disturbing unsolved mysteries, with four children murdered between 1976-1977 near Detroit. The investigation reveals bizarre contradictions including victims being cared for while in captivity, holiday-adjacent abduction dates, and suspicious deaths of potential witnesses.
• Four victims aged 10-12: Mark Stebbins, Jill Robinson, Christine Millich, and Timothy King
• Bodies found clean, bathed, with trimmed nails—earning the perpetrator the nickname "Babysitter Killer"
• Three victims strangled, but Jill Robinson shot in face with shotgun
• Only male victims showed evidence of sexual assault
• Timothy King fed his favorite food (KFC) before death, after his mother mentioned it in press conference
• Evidence of white pet fur, gold carpet fibers, and a cleaning agent called Fisohex
• Witness claimed seeing victim with police officer; multiple witnesses died suspiciously
• Bodies often found near police stations, suggesting possible taunting
• The case remains unsolved after 50 years
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah (00:00):
So fun story for this week.
I do like fun stories.
So on Tuesday I was like I havea couple of my grandfather's
sweaters.
And I was like, I want to wearone today.
Courtney (00:09):
I just need a big hug.
I love a grandpa sweater withleggings.
Hannah (00:12):
I got a compliment on it .
The woman that said oh my God,I love your sweater.
I was like thanks, it was mygrandfather's.
And she's like, wow, thegrandfather in good shape.
I was like, no, he died in 94.
She's like so it's extraspecial.
I'm like it is Well, listen tothis.
So, and this is the next day,on Wednesday, rob went to go
talk to my mom and she's likeyou know, it's weird.
(00:33):
I haven't heard from Hannah.
Usually Hannah has that weirdwitchy shit where she dreams
about her grandfather during hisbirthday, whatever.
And I was Rob.
I wore a sweater yesterday.
Courtney (00:42):
You had some kind of inkling and feeling and you wore
the sweater.
Yeah, so I called my mom.
Hannah (00:45):
I was like mom, don't worry, Still got my witchy shit.
I was like I wore a sweaterAdapting.
Courtney (00:51):
Okay.
Hannah (01:02):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (01:09):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (01:15):
This is Wicked.
Courtney (01:16):
Wanderings.
Hello Hannah, hello Courtney,it is just the two of us today.
(01:37):
Rob was too busy so with thatin mind, I am running the
switchboard, which I know Robhates.
Shout out to Rob for editing.
I will try my best not to cutanybody off when I use the start
and stop button.
It's just really temptingbecause it goes from red to
green when you stop it.
This episode, I will preface andsay, is going to be a journey.
It started with picking up abook that a couple of times I
(02:00):
had been to Barnes Noble and Ipicked up this book and I looked
at it because I'm a cover girl.
The cover was interesting to meand I really didn't know like I
knew the gist of what it wasabout, but not really anything
beyond that.
And it started with pickingthat book up and it ended with
many midnight strolls throughGoogle.
I've listened to like 10 otherpodcasts talk about the same
(02:21):
individual or individuals and Ifeel like I have more questions
than when I started.
So I'm going to preface bysaying Hot Mess Express over
here.
So we did tease it in the lastepisode.
It's going to be an episodeabout the Oakland County child
killer.
Huge trigger warning here foranybody who has a hard time
listening to things aboutchildren, I'm going to do my
(02:41):
best not to let anything get toographic.
I kind of paraphrased andsummarized a lot of things so
that way we could keep all ofthat out of here in order to
help our viewers but alsomaintain the dignity of the
little ones, babies, who werelost.
So the Oakland County childkiller was also known as the
babysitter killer, which I thinka lot of.
I feel like I have like ababysitter killer thing going,
(03:03):
because if you'll remember whenI did Tony Costa, he was also
the babysitter.
So that was one of the firstthings that stuck out to me, and
more on that later.
So right now it won't soundlike something you understand if
you don't know Hannah, but moreon that later.
Ok, so the dates that theOakland County Child Killer, or
OCCK as they are often called,were active was from February
15th 1976 through March 16th1977 in Detroit.
(03:27):
So you're looking at a veryshort window, very short.
You're looking at a very, veryshort window.
What I will say is I'm going totalk about four victims.
There are some sources.
It's really hard with this case.
Things don't line up everywhere.
There are some sources will saythat confirmed four kids
connected, potentially six, butI'm going to talk about the four
confirmed for our purpose here.
(03:48):
The biggest thing that I cansay is the status of this case
is unsolved.
What so?
They still have no clue?
Yes, and that was over 50 yearsago.
I think that a lot of what Iwas diving into when I was
researching and trying to figureout how we were going to
podcast about this, how I wasgoing to kind of approach this
topic, is hard because we talkabout a lot of cases that are
(04:09):
solved.
We're really interested in kindof understanding the dynamic of
why somebody did something, andso for this one, I think it's a
double edged sword, becauseit's very interesting of how
they were not caught, but it'salso troubling.
Obviously there's a lot ofreally strong evidence that
suggests to a lot of differentpeople, and then what you'll
find is, by the end, you toowill probably be very confused.
Hannah (04:31):
Do you have an inkling of who you think it might be
based off of the suggestedpeople?
Courtney (04:36):
What I will say is I do so.
I read the Kill Jar by J ReubenAppelman.
I've been on my TBR for a while.
J reuben appleman, I've been onmy tbr for a while and I will
say that the way that he lays itout is it kind of pushes you
into one category.
But I will say that the way hewrites I appreciate is very
matter of fact.
So he'll say, like thishappened which leads you to this
(04:56):
person, like right at the end,like he pretty much.
He kind of ends it like anattorney would, with a closing
statement like example x leadsyou to the sky, does it not?
Example b leads you to the sky,does it not?
Which I can appreciate.
But I can also acknowledge thatthere could be some bias, just
based off of the source that Iuse as my primary.
So I did use the kill jar as myprimary source and then I kind
of had to skeleton my way outand look into different things.
(05:18):
So the victims, four of them,two boys and two girls.
So just to walk through them inorder.
Mark stebbins he was found onfebruary 19th.
Jill robinson was found ondecember 26th.
Christine millich I'm reallysorry if that name is incorrect
january 21st she was found andtimothy king the final confirmed
(05:41):
on march 22nd.
And what I do want to highlightis I'm going to read you the
dates that they went missing andthe dates that their body was
found and I'm going to see ifyou notice any trend in the
different dates.
So the first one was February15th to February 19th.
December 22nd to December 26th.
January 2nd to January 21st.
(06:05):
March 16th to March 22nd.
Hannah (06:09):
Okay, so the first two, there was like four days in
between, and then the second twohad this almost the same amount
was six, six, 17 days inbetween.
Courtney (06:18):
Yeah, so the longest held in captivity or missing and
unaccounted for was Christine,so she was from January 2nd to
January 21st, so she had likethat 19 day missing.
And then Timothy King was the16th to the 22nd, so you're
looking at about six days.
But what really struck me, andI think it's interesting, is
because I read the book, soobviously it's very different
for hearing it to read.
When I was reading the book Iwas like OK, but what is this?
(06:41):
One day off from holidays?
So Mark Stebbins goes missingon February 15th, the day after
Valentine's Day.
Jill Robinson is found December26th, the day after Christmas.
Christine goes missing January2nd, the day after New Year's,
and then Timothy King goesmissing March 16th, the day
before St Patrick's Day.
How old were these kids?
So they were all between theages of 10 and 12.
Hannah (07:05):
So did it have to line up with school vacations or well
?
So my other question is itcould have.
Was there a dumping ground, orwere these found different parts
of the city?
Courtney (07:15):
so I broke it down because I wanted.
So.
There's so much similar aboutthese cases, but they are kind
of different too, so I'm gonnabreak it down and look at all of
the individuals on their own.
The first thing that stuck outto me was just those holidays,
because so the way they broke itdown in the kill jar was there
was a page let me flip, I'm notgonna quote so here I am quoting
(07:37):
not yet, but they broke it downin a way where they had showed
you the name and then dates incaptivity and so
this is like right after theforeword of the book, so you see
this first.
And that's where immediately mybrain was like holidays, which
is very interesting.
I will say.
Some sources talked about thatall of these kids had parents
who all the kids, I believe,except Timothy had parents who
(07:57):
were divorced.
Couldn't confirm thatspecifically, but if that's the
case I also thought that wasinteresting.
But anyways, let's get intoevery child in their individual
order, okay?
So mark stebbins was the firstvictim.
He was 12 years old.
Um, he was abducted leaving theamerican legion.
It was like mid-afternoon, soit wasn't like during the
(08:19):
nighttime or anything sketchy.
Um and his mom reported himmissing when he did not return
home.
So obviously she's home.
She's like, okay, where is he?
She reported him missing whenhe did not return home.
So obviously she's home.
She's like, okay, where is he?
She reports him missing, do we?
Hannah (08:28):
know why he was at the American Legion.
Courtney (08:30):
Some sources say he was at a work party for his mom,
some say he was at an event forchildren.
It was definitely like anappropriate thing that he was
supposed to be doing, okay.
So he called and said, you know, I'm going to go home, and then
didn't come home.
Four days later they found himin a parking lot near the
Michigan State Police outpost,what With his body laid out.
Yeah, and remember that onemoment, because you're going to
(08:51):
have that moment a couple moretimes.
So the reports showed that hehad been sexually assaulted and
there was evidence on his wristsand ankles of ligatures used.
None of that was released tothe public and I will also
highlight which you're going tohear me highlight a lot of
things kind of over and overagain and here.
Hannah (09:08):
I am highlighting here.
Courtney (09:10):
I am reminding you a lot of things are hard to report
in this case because it's likeif you're going chronologically,
at the time somebody didn'tknow something, but then they're
finding out years later,sometimes even up until like
2012 later, 2012 later.
This was not reported.
Why was this not in any of thefindings?
So the crime scene there wasnoted traces of semen, blood and
(09:32):
human slash pet hair.
Additionally, there wereenzymes found in saliva found on
his underwear.
Oh sorry, cringe big.
I don't.
I don't enjoy the idea of thateither.
Again, tried to keep it very Iknow I know he's very.
Hannah (09:47):
He's a big douche.
Canoe, he's definitely up there, or she.
Well, I don't know.
Courtney (09:51):
They I guess they is kind of the only way that we can
really word what happened there.
I think the hard part is thatall of the evidence that was
found seemed to be butchered.
In my opinion and that is myopinion but there's just so many
instances where things were notreported like at the time when
they reported it was like hey,he was found, he was wearing the
(10:12):
same clothes that he wentmissing in.
Um, they never had put in anyof the reports initially that
the child had been sexuallyassaulted.
It was just kind of like herehe is.
What I will say and and this istrue for all of them is that all
of the children showed thatthey had been cared for and I'm
going to stop everybody fromgoing Courtney, what this is?
Someone murdering children,what do you mean cared for?
(10:32):
The reason why he was calledthe babysitter killer was
because he had tended to thebodies, he had cleaned them, he
had washed them, they had theirnails trimmed, they were groomed
and they were in clean pressedclothes and some of them had
evidence that they had been fedand they were not malnourished.
So it's not like they werebeing kept someplace, they're
like human dolls for him kind ofyeah, kind of okay, my mind is
(10:57):
blown and we're what?
10 minutes yeah, we can't bemore than that.
In definitely not.
Maybe we're at 14 minutes, butwe definitely said weird stuff
for the beginning.
Hannah (11:04):
So I'm I'm really still focused on most of these kids
probably came from divorcedparents.
So I'm thinking, if it'ssurrounding the holidays and you
have any type of custody, I nowI'm like, okay, now I'm going
down a rabbit hole.
Courtney (11:21):
There's a lot of rabbit holes here.
Hannah (11:22):
Go down, because I have like 14 pages of notes and it
doesn't feel done Because itsounds like if these kids were
well taken care of minusobviously the abuse that they
were undergoing and death, couldthey have gone with this person
willingly?
That's the big if I'm sorry,but you said there wasn't't many
(11:45):
details, like the detailsweren't released that these kids
were abused at all.
Courtney (11:48):
No, so and what you're going to find is that they were
not all abused.
Is there a difference in?
Hannah (11:52):
sex Like oh yeah, so he only had sex with the males, yes
, or?
Courtney (11:58):
assaulted them with an object to keep it not graphic.
Yeah, so I think the biggestthing is that there was such a
contrast between what wasreleased to the public and what
was quote unquote known.
And then they're telling peopleoh, there was no evidence found
on the body.
But then we're finding outlater on oh there was.
I was buried in this report.
Oh it was.
But now you know, we didn'tknow at the time.
Hannah (12:20):
So is this police aren't doing their job, or was it just
they thought they were helpingthe case by not having all the
details released?
Courtney (12:27):
I'm going to see if you're led to the same
conclusion.
I am All right.
So the second victim, jillRobinson, was 12 years old and
if you remember she was December22nd.
1976 is when she was abductedTo refresh.
Mark went missing on February15th and then Jill was December
22nd.
So it's a pretty big gap intime, especially because Mark
was only held captive until the19th.
(12:49):
I'm wondering if there isn't avictim or two misplaced in there
.
And at first, when they sawjust Mark, they weren't.
You know, it's important tothink, like it's easy to say,
going back hindsight, we seethat it's a serial killer,
they're approaching this profile, but at the time they find one
kid and, as horrific as it is,they're not thinking like, oh,
we've got to lock our childrenup.
You know, they're just not,they're just not thinking.
There's a lot of hindsight thatwe have and there's not enough
to establish a profile.
(13:10):
So then this killer and I do saykiller, sometimes I'll say he,
and I have to correct myselfthis person really throws people
for a loop, because Jill is afemale, same age as Mark, but
female.
She left home after a fightwith her mom about dinner
preparations.
She stormed off on her bicyclewith a backpack of belongings,
as 12-year-olds did back then.
Right, okay, we've all had thatfight with our parents, yep,
(13:32):
and she goes missing.
The following day her bicyclewas found behind a local hobby
shop, but that was it.
Her backpack was gone and sowas she.
So now people are probablystarting to connect to like, oh,
okay, but also, it's beenalmost a year you're talking
february to december, that'salmost a whole year's worth of
time.
I don't necessarily know thatpeople were thinking, oh, what
about mark?
So december 26 her body wasfound alongside the highway
(13:54):
nearby to the troy policestation, within sight, according
to some sources.
So if you were inside the troypolice station according to some
of these sources and you lookedoutside, you would have been
able to see where her body wasdumped okay, I have a couple
thoughts.
Hannah (14:06):
Yeah, go ahead.
One was she tomboyish?
Courtney (14:09):
not sure wasn't stated okay, because I'm wondering if,
like, he thought she was a boyand then right, misgendered,
right, that's a good thought.
Hannah (14:17):
I didn't think about that, that's um because also 12
year old girls I mean dependingon when you develop could be a
little homely right.
Also, is there a policeconnection to this killer,
because that that's the secondtime it's found outside police
station area, like michiganstate police was mark, and now
we're at troy police station forthis one and december 26 being
(14:37):
the day after christmas, so itjust for me.
So sorry, bring up Bundy here,surprise surprise man.
Courtney (14:45):
what are we?
We're at 16 minutes, mark, andshe's bringing in Bundy.
Hannah (14:50):
I'm just thinking of like dumping grounds, of like
places you are familiar or youfeel safe yeah.
So was he an officer or did he?
They keep saying, he myself,it's hard.
It's hard Because there arefemale serial killers, as we
know.
So was that just a comfort spotor like?
Courtney (15:10):
did he want the bodies found so they could see like,
look, I did take care of thischild.
By this point reading, I wasalso thinking, potentially it
was a taunt, it was like hey,I'm right here under your nose.
Look at what I'm doing again.
I got away with it the firsttime.
We know that sometimes, whenpeople get away with something
the first time, they get thathigh.
Normally, though, when they getaway with it, I feel like from
episodes we've done, they do itsooner, because what you know
about human reinforcement, Imean they, they get it done,
(15:30):
they get away with it.
It felt good in some capacityto them.
They're going to do it againsooner.
So who found these bodies?
Random people.
It was not always the same typeof people, okay.
So, like mark, she was foundfully clothed in the clothing
she had been wearing whenabducted, including her backpack
still strapped on her back.
All these kids were found likein I'm not gonna say comfortable
(15:51):
positions, because to me thatalways felt weird when I was
reading it, because I meanthey're dead.
What?
Hannah (15:55):
was the girl's name.
Courtney (15:56):
Again, I'm sorry jill robinson very generic name, but
if you do type in jillrobinson-K.
Some places had pictures upwhich I suppose we could include
into the show notes too sopeople can look.
I mean, she, she's kind ofhomely, they're all.
They're all so young.
When I saw the pictures I waslike, oh, these kids, my heart,
(16:17):
as someone who works withchildren, my heart just kind of
broke, because they're all soyoung.
You're talking between 10 and12 years old.
Hannah (16:23):
That's oh, that's so crazy, yeah okay, sorry, I feel
like I'm you're not letting you.
You're fine, you're totallyfine.
Courtney (16:31):
So she was found fully clothed in the clothing she had
been wearing when abducted,including her backpack strapped
on her back, also in cleaned,cared for shape.
There was no evidence of likeher being neglected in any
capacity.
What I will say is different,and this is a jump scare.
She had been shot in the facewith a 12 gauge shotgun.
So the first little boy hadevidence that he was strangled.
(16:52):
So that's all.
Three of the other childrenwere strangled.
Jill had been shot in the facewith a 12 gauge shotgun.
It was because she was the girl.
The girl had to be different.
My thought is that I immediatelythink like, okay, he strangled
her, he thought she was dead andshe was not, and he panicked.
(17:14):
This person panicked and theywere like shit, this person is
not dead and it was a jump.
There's a couple of thingsabout this case that make me
feel like as calculated as thisperson was.
They either were jumpy wherethey were doing things, they got
so confident that they wereassuming they were always going
to do it right or maybe somebodywho maybe wasn't as highly
(17:36):
educated, someone who was kindof just like an opportunistic,
they were like oh, I'm going totry this.
It didn't work.
They're flying by the seat oftheir pants because I'm just
curious.
Hannah (17:44):
Did she have strangulation marks or we're not
sure?
Courtney (17:46):
it was not mentioned.
If it was, however, I willalways preface by saying that
all of the sources are verydifferent and that, with as many
things seemingly went missing,it's very hard to figure out
what was actually true and thenwhat was not.
The autopsy revealed that therewas no sexual assault, but that
she had been fed and cared forwhile in captivity.
Like I said, but no sexualassault.
(18:07):
So to me now I'm like okay,this is where this person is.
Sexual assault.
On the first male victim,nothing.
On the second victim, who wasfemale, there was white pet fur
found on the body and there wassome human hair found on her
body.
Again, not that any of it wasmentioned.
When they initially did thereporting, it was kind of left
as this like well, there was noevidence there.
And I know a lot of people arethinking like courtney, okay,
(18:29):
but you know, dna testing andthings, it was still not really
noted.
So again, kind of weird.
So now people in town are kindof like, okay, I'm not letting
my kid go someplace right now.
They're starting to get alittle bit like hmm, is there
something else happening here?
So enter your third victim,christine millich.
Third victim 10 years old.
So she's the youngest of thevictims.
(18:52):
January 2nd 1977 is when shegoes missing.
Hannah (18:56):
Oh, so there was another girl.
Courtney (18:58):
Mm-hmm.
Hannah (18:59):
Oh, okay.
Courtney (18:59):
Two girls, two boys.
Okay, sorry, all right.
Which is why, initially, solike.
Again, when you're reading thebook that I use as my source,
that first page lays it out.
So there's all four of them andyou can tell by the names two
girls, two boys.
Okay, the names two girls, twoboys, okay.
So you're like okay, thisperson didn't care.
(19:19):
But the more you dive into it,you're like but they did care.
And then the more you unravelabout their suspect list too, it
doesn't make any sense.
I found myself a couple oftimes throughout being like are
they really all related?
Was there somebody who had adifferent mo?
That was kind of likepiggybacking off of it.
I have a thought go ahead.
Hannah (19:34):
Okay, I don't know if it's something you thought of.
So if these kids were takenfrom broken homes, did he think
he, they think that they werehelping them by you know what?
You're going to have amiserable existence being from
broken homes.
I'm going to help you by doingthis.
Courtney (19:52):
So I didn't think about that.
But when I got into looking atthe suspects, they had so many
suspects.
So there were some from greathomes, there were some from
broken homes and I can see where, for one of the people that I'm
thinking about, I could seesomeone being like I'm going to
spare you.
What then makes me think likehow did they know?
Because there was no evidencethat the kids have been like
(20:12):
stalked or anything like that'strue.
So it really did seem like, ifyou think about it, mark was
coming home from the AmericanLegion.
Yep, seems like it could havebeen opportunistic.
He was on his way home.
You saw him out.
He was by himself.
Grab him.
Jill stormed out of her house togo leave.
She was upset, she wasvulnerable Maybe you were
(20:39):
watching but again by herselfleft her house, christine also
by herself.
So she failed to return homefrom the 7-eleven where her mom
allowed her to walk and purchasemagazines.
It was not that far again.
Remember we're in 1977, verydifferent time.
Uh, you know, she really wantedto go get these magazines.
Her mom was like okay, fine,here's the money.
Go get your magazine and comeright back 15 minutes tops, be
careful.
Crossing the road and likedon't, don't dilly-dally, come
(20:59):
right back.
So after three hours when shereturned, failed to return home.
Her mom called and reported hermissing.
I have no idea how this womanlasted three hours.
Yeah, because at this point weknow in the area that two other
kids have been kidnapped andkilled.
So christine is the one who hasgone the longest, which is also
interesting.
So you're looking at, the boyswere sexually assaulted, the
(21:22):
girls were not, but Christine isfemale and she was gone the
longest.
So, like what was happeningthere, was it just?
And how old was Christine?
10.
She was the youngest, not bymuch.
We've got one 10 year old, one11 year old and two 12 year olds
.
Courtney, there's so manythoughts in my head.
(21:43):
So 19 days after she is takenor goes missing, a mail carrier
found her body in a snowbank,again fully clothed in the
clothes she had been abducted inon the side of a rural road
within view of homes, butthere's no police department
mentioned in this one.
So it's almost like this personlikes the idea of somebody
catching them.
The autopsy suggested that shehad been strangled 24 hours
before her body was discoveredand similar to jill.
(22:04):
There was no evidence of sexualassault, white pet fur found on
the body and human hair, butagain not noted during the time.
So many thoughts.
I mean it's.
I need a minute's process.
It's a lot, it's a lot and wehaven't even got to the fourth
victim yet we haven't evengotten to the fourth victim yet
and I've got like five pages ofsuspects.
I can see why it's been 50years in this case is not solved
(22:28):
.
So you've you're on your thirdvictim two girls, one boy, two
strangled, one shot in the facewith a shotgun yeah, I feel like
all my theories are out thewindow one sexually assaulted,
two not see where I'm sayinglike.
At some point while I'm readingthese I'm like there's enough
to be connected, or is it acopycat?
two police departments, twopolice departments one snow bank
also cared for, also fed.
(22:51):
The times of capture are alldifferent and it's.
It's really interesting becauseI started to dig into like and
you'll see, like on my last twovictims I talk about when the
autopsy revealed that they hadpassed they're clearly okay.
I mean, the shotgun blast tothe face, you, you, you
(23:12):
obviously killed them there andleft them there.
So what did you do?
Just push her out of the carand just.
You know what I'm saying.
Hannah (23:20):
Like I just, and nobody heard that if it's a shot of the
police station, exploded herface outside of the police
station.
Courtney (23:28):
God yeah, no, okay all right fourth, the fourth victim
and probably the most knownvictim, timothy King.
So when we did a episode withCousin Mark last week, he was
one of the fun facts that wetalked about.
He was the KFC one.
So he was the final knownvictim, 11 years old, and he
(23:49):
went missing on March 16th 1977.
So he left home to go to thepharmacy nearby to buy candy
never returned.
An extensive search wascompleted for him, which I do
think is important to note, butI believe his family was still
nuclear.
They were still together.
Nothing was discovered untilhis body was found on march 22nd
in the evening by two teenagers.
His body had been left in aditch.
(24:11):
Estimated he had been killedsix hours before he was found.
So now that window is comingcloser and closer.
So yeah he's now killing peopleduring the day because if they
found him in the evening and hisbody estimated by the medical
examiner was six hours beforeshowing that he had been killed,
you killed him in the middle ofthe day.
Hannah (24:30):
If you're finding them at like 6 pm or 7 pm, you killed
him at noon well, and I hopealso they're taking into account
I know this was, you know, the70s but the temperature of the
place too.
So if they're looking at theliver for the time of death, I
mean, these times of year arereally cold because we're
looking at january, december,march, yeah, february and
(24:50):
february, like he only was.
Courtney (24:53):
So some people on different sources will call him
like the snow killer too,because it seems like he was
only active during the winteragain from what we have evidence
and then not being found.
Hannah (25:02):
And then, all of a sudden, the killings stop.
Where did they go?
Did they die?
Did they get caught forsomething else?
Courtney (25:11):
so timothy is the most interesting in opinion because
there's the most information andyou have to factor poor Mark
was the first one.
Yeah, they didn't really knowto like do all the things.
They didn't know how to pullout all the bells and whistles
by Timothy.
They were like here we go again.
So during the time he was heldcaptive, his family did a press
(25:31):
conference and his mom had madea statement about just wanting
him to come home safely.
Just let him go so she couldfeed him his favorite food,
which was Kentucky fried chicken.
The autopsy results showed thathe had a final meal of KFC
shortly before his time of death, Again also cleaned and groomed
Stop Prior to being strangled,and his autopsy showed evidence
(25:53):
of sexual assault with a foreignobject.
Hannah (25:55):
Court.
Courtney (25:57):
What strangled and his autopsy showed evidence of
sexual assault with a foreignobject court.
What?
And this is where in my mindI'm like this guy was cocky or
so.
So there's, there's multipletheories here, right?
So did he see one right oneopportunity here?
Did he see the press conference?
And he was like maliciously,like I'm gonna show them, I know
I saw what they were doing.
Or did they see the pressconference and think, oh, he
(26:21):
really likes, he really likeskfc that's what I'm gonna give
him for his last meal, becausethere is some kind of nurturing
piece, yes, or is it neither ofthose things?
And he says to the child what,what's your favorite meal?
I want to give you somethingnice to eat.
And he says kfFC.
Hannah (26:34):
Did these kids all go to the same school At least like
anything else connecting them atall?
Not that I could find.
Courtney (26:42):
So weird.
I think also this victim,timothy, really became part of
the profiling that they did forhim, for this killer.
So much speculation into thatmind game aspect, with KFC
tending to the bodies.
That's when people were reallydown the rabbit hole of theories
where they were like is this, Imean, this person is sick, but
is this person like sick, sick,or are they really just trying
(27:04):
to care?
Like did they really hear themother's pleas and think, oh, I
should feed them?
what they want and what I willalso say is that the father of
timothy barry king.
He sued the michigan statepolice, believing that they were
hiding the identity of hisson's murderer.
Barry was also a lawyer, sokeep that in mind when you're
thinking about suing him, and healso kept fighting in the case
(27:24):
to keep it open and find hisson's killer up until he died in
2020.
He it became like his life'smission to try to figure out and
dig deep and talk to reporters.
He had talked talked to JReuben Appelman, who had written
this book.
He was very, very, veryinvolved in saying like this
person is here and he had a lotof, in my opinion, really
helpful things to say.
(27:45):
Some other notable evidence toconsider that, like I'm sorry
this part is just kind of thrownhere is like I didn't know
where to put some of this stuff.
I was like these things areimportant and when we're
considering, like, who thisperson is, but I didn't really
know where to put them.
So the original police reportsleft out that the sexual
assaults of both boys happened,that it was done with an object
and neither of the femalevictims had evidence of sexual
(28:06):
assault.
That feels huge to me.
Very huge that feels like, if Icould bold and underline that
feels like monumental to me,like what?
What would have been the pointof leaving it out?
And how would you have notobserved that, as a medical
examiner, three out of the fourvictims were strangled as the
means of death which is alsosticking out to me, that's a big
similarity one being shot witha shotgun.
So I'm thinking maybe thekiller broke the pattern due to
(28:28):
something unexpected you knowsome people talked about.
Maybe jill's case was not infact related.
The rest of her case matches up, but was it something where
something else had happenedentirely?
I feel like the person gotspooked.
Truthfully, after reading all ofit, I think that he or they
thought that they strangled Jill, thought she was done, she
moved or made a sound, or herbody just reacted the way bodies
(28:49):
sometimes do after they've been, you know, killed.
I don't know.
I think that it was a jump, ajump move.
It was like, oh my god, what doI do?
And it was just a reactionarysituation.
Or potentially there's twopeople who are committing these
murders.
That also played into my head,because if there's two people,
maybe that's why there's femaleand male victims.
Yeah, I would love to know ifher, her, hyoid, hyoid, hyoid.
Hannah (29:11):
What is it right here when you strangle someone?
Oh yeah, pop snapped, we couldlook into that.
Courtney (29:17):
We could definitely look into that.
So, thinking about all thethings that connect these kids,
the next biggest thing isobviously that all four victims
were between the ages of 10 and12.
That's a very clear, veryobvious.
I mean, that's the onlyconnection I could come up with,
besides the fact that they wereall in Michigan area, right?
What I also found interestingnot necessarily evidence, but
(29:40):
two writers attempted to write abook before this author did.
When the author asked one ofthem why, why didn't you finish,
his response was there wasn'tan ending.
That's what.
That's what.
But to me that that was like.
That stuck out in my head.
As there's somebody playing thebackground of like I'm not
gonna allow whatever this is tohappen.
(30:01):
Like there's someone in thebackground.
Hannah (30:02):
In my opinion, that's just playing defense, keeping
all of these things out of themedia, keeping all these people
away and because how else, withthe story like that's, that's
not fair to these kids, like,well, I'm just not gonna write
it because there's no way maybethey were threatened.
Courtney (30:14):
I mean, and I think once I start talking about the
second half of this case, whereyou're talking about the people
who were involved, I think youmight reflect back on that and
understand like, okay, thisperson might have been
threatened.
Maybe this person had family.
Some of the things thathappened here were too weird to
even be a fluke.
So I also found in my journeythrough all of this that the
(30:38):
white dog hair was likely from asmall dog or a terrier which is
important.
That's what I was thinking, sothat makes sense.
What also was reallyinteresting to me is that they
believed that one of thevehicles used to transport some
of the bodies had gold carpetfibers.
But the like it was reallyweird because they were talking
about different vehicles which Ididn't get into in my notes
because there was like seven.
(30:58):
It was like a witch hunt ofvehicles, very hard to keep
track of, especially if youdon't know vehicles that well.
But it looked like they weresuggesting that potentially the
girls and boys were kept indifferent places because both of
the male victims had goldcarpet fibers on their body when
they were found and that thegirls had no carpet fibers at
all, which was indicative,possibly, of them being kept in
someplace concrete tile, etcetera that didn't have carpet,
(31:21):
or at least not the same placeas the male victims.
Okay, odd.
And I will also say that one ofthe suspects we are going to
talk about their family had asmall white terrier.
Hannah (31:30):
But there must have been something else to connect them
besides a white dog 100.
Courtney (31:34):
That was more of like the sealing the deal you have a
white dog.
Hannah (31:38):
You have a white dog, it's like a thread of evidence,
like the other episode I didwhere it's like what tiny thread
although I had like a reallyblonde moment where I was like
oh, the thread like no, like his, it was his mom that got him in
trouble.
Courtney (31:49):
Not in trouble, but right, yeah, they caught him
essentially, and I'm sure shewas surprised too.
Hannah (31:53):
That was I thought it was like oh no, I remember what
I said.
I said oh, he got adopted.
Like what are you talking about?
Like the piece of thread was inthe bassinet, I don't know.
Courtney (32:00):
Anyways, we, we, you know you had to be there.
I guess the final thing that Ithought was really well, not the
final, but the final part thatI'm going to note here is that
Polaroid pictures are mentionedin nearly every single suspect
who is interviewed in somecapacity, which to me suggests a
link between the suspects orshared knowledge among them.
So whether they were aware ofsomething that happened, like if
(32:23):
you and I know that somebodyelse did something bad and we
both know, even though we didn'tparticipate.
Something about Polaroidpictures to me when I was
reading was like, yeah, that's athing.
They kept coming up and I knowit was the 70s and everyone's
like, oh, my God, courtney, ofcourse they're Polaroid pictures
, but the people kept mentioningit as evidence, like, oh, it
could have been this personbecause they had Polaroid, or
that person showed me thisPolaroid, or this person had a
box of Polaroids.
(32:45):
It just kept coming up andgetting highlighted and then
towards the end of the novelagain, sorry, some of this
evidence is kind of weird theway that it's kind of laid out,
but there was an FBI report thathypothesized that all four
bodies were cleaned with aspecific chemical called Fisohex
.
I mean, it was actually aproduct that was taken off the
market and typically used inlaundry companies.
So laundromats, dry cleaners,that kind of thing.
(33:07):
The author highlighted andpretty much bolded that the
first place he would have looked, hearing that information, was
the laundromat directly next tothe pharmacy that Timothy went
missing from.
When he followed his idea, hedid discover an employee that
had sexual misconduct report andthat employee had a known
associate with one of the topsuspects.
And that just begins the ringof where everything goes.
Hannah (33:31):
Okay, but when you were talking about the Polaroids, I
noticed when I was looking upthe picture of one of the
victims that they talked aboutsome type of child sex ring
slash, child pornography Okay.
Courtney (33:46):
And that all comes into it too.
So I'm going to start kind ofbackwards from the book.
So if you've read the book,you're like Courtney, what are
you doing?
You're starting kind ofbackwards.
But before I end this off today, I want to talk about one
particular thing that happened.
That was just too weird, okay,um, so there was a witness that
the author spoke about in thebook that he talked to.
(34:06):
His name was sebastian and hehad said years later that he saw
christine before shedisappeared, leaving the
7-eleven with a police officer.
He called the hotline numberfor the tips during that time
and he had, you know, he hadthreatened to.
He told them and theythreatened to come to his home.
He said after Tim was killed,the police came to the school
and took him aside and told himto change his story.
(34:27):
Years later, he was dating agirl whose father was a police
officer and he asked her to seta meeting between him and her
father, having this be somebodythat he trusted.
Now he said can you please setaside this meeting?
I'd like to talk to him.
He told that policemaneverything, and the police
officer's response was you stayhome, keep your doors locked.
Five, okay, five days later hewas shot and killed.
(34:50):
In high school sebastian told afriend the same story.
So years go by, he tells thefriends the same story.
The friend called the statepolice.
Three days later he was founddead in his parents garage,
ruled a suicide that he gassedhimself out.
A year after that happenedsebastian told another friend.
A day later the same policeofficer he saw with christine
came to the school, busted hisfriend for weed.
The very next day after beingbusted the friend was found dead
(35:12):
and ruled a suicide, havingalso gassed himself out in the
family garage.
When he was 21 he finallyconfided in his mother who he
had been hiding all of it from.
She told him mind his business,but she did call and report it.
The police showed up at hishouse.
The same cop he saw withchristine beat sebastian until
he was handcuffed.
Sebastian called him out sayinghe saw him with christine that
day.
(35:32):
He knows what he.
He was beaten until he wasunconscious and woke up in the
hospital.
Sebastian also recalled thatthe clerk from the day he saw
Christine leave the 7-Elevendied years ago of also a
reported suicide.
Hannah (35:45):
I mean it would make sense if there was a cop
involved.
Courtney (35:49):
Mm-hmm, it would still make sense, especially with not
having all the evidence, orsome things were not said to
anybody dropping of the bodiesyeah, there's a lot here that
really like immediately I'mlooking at it and I'm like so
either it was a police officerwho was doing it, it was
somebody who was prominent thatwas another thought to me,
because the police often willprotect prominent people in an
(36:10):
area.
We've known that about historyor was it a relative of a police
officer?
I know sometimes policeofficers will hide things that
their family does.
Hannah (36:18):
I mean, what better way if you're going to have a sex
ring like that?
I mean what?
Courtney (36:22):
better way to have it right under the police's nose
right.
Hannah (36:25):
And, like you know, obviously the officers have to
have their uniforms cleaned,right, so it would make sense if
there was a connection with adry cleaners Damn.
Courtney (36:34):
There's so much and I think that, unfortunately,
wonders, that's where we'regoing to stop for today, what I
have to stop us, because thereare so many suspects that it
would be unfair to leave peoplehearing just a few of them and
not all of them.
But Courtney Hannah looks likeshe wants to punch me directly
(36:57):
in the face right now my brain'sjust going a mile a minute.
Hannah (37:01):
Have fun thinking about this for a week I'm gonna have
to, yeah, like I'm really gonnahave to.
Holy shit, this is interestingit.
Courtney (37:09):
I'm telling you it's a rabbit hole.
I have to say the kill jar.
Uh, speaking strictly from likea book lover's perspective now,
and not like the true crimelover.
I gave it a four star ongoodreads.
Everybody who knows me knows Iam stingy with my good, good
goodreads stars.
I love the content.
I think that the way that theauthor brought it about was
great.
I just have a really hard timewhen the author connects a lot
of their personal life in, andso that's the only thing that
(37:31):
kept it from a five star for me.
Nothing against the author.
I think that for him thetelling of the story probably
directly related with you knowhe had a personal connection to
the area and that's probably whyhe was interested.
But for the sake of my interestnot being from the area, I
think that that part was justkind of for me.
Hannah (37:49):
Oh court, I'm so excited for the second half.
Courtney (37:51):
So definitely add the kill jar to your TBR shelf if it
isn't already there, but don'tread it before next week.
We want you guys to besurprised, okay, so let's do
pick a card any card.
Pick a card, any card.
Here you go, hannah.
Pick a card, any card.
(38:12):
Don't throw them on the floor.
That's the other part you wantme to read it.
Hannah (38:17):
Yeah, any card, don't throw them on the floor.
That's the other part.
You want me to read it?
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay, we have a Jack of Spadesand it is for Lenita Oliveira.
On September 4, 2007, skeletalremains were found in the woods
about 200 yards off Route 122 inRutland.
The victim had been reportedmissing in Worcester by family
members on May 4th 2007.
If you have any informationabout this, please call
(38:40):
1-855-MA-SOLVE.
And again, that's the Jack ofSpades.
Courtney (38:45):
I always like to look at the pictures.
Hannah (38:48):
She looks like such a happy person, and that's such a
good photo too.
Courtney (38:53):
Does it say how old she was?
Hannah (38:56):
She must be in her 40s.
To me, yeah it doesn't say.
Courtney (39:00):
And that's such a rough area too.
If you're not familiar from thearea, rutland is very desolate,
like yeah.
Hannah (39:07):
Even saying Rutland, it's like oh.
Courtney (39:11):
Yeah, it's really out there.
I always think of the Rutlandprison camps when I think about
Rutland.
Well, all right, take careWanderers.
Bye guys.
Hannah (39:23):
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, Hannah, and co-hosted by me.
Courtney (39:29):
Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (39:32):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
(39:54):
wandering.
Thank you.
So fun story for this week.
I do like fun stories.
So on Tuesday I was like I havea couple of my grandfather's
sweaters.
And I was like, I want to wearone today.
Courtney (00:09):
I just need a big hug.
I love a grandpa sweater withleggings.
Hannah (00:12):
I got a compliment on it .
The woman that said oh my God,I love your sweater.
I was like thanks, it was mygrandfather's.
And she's like, wow, thegrandfather in good shape.
I was like, no, he died in 94.
She's like so it's extraspecial.
I'm like it is Well, listen tothis.
So, and this is the next day,on Wednesday, rob went to go
talk to my mom and she's likeyou know, it's weird.
(00:33):
I haven't heard from Hannah.
Usually Hannah has that weirdwitchy shit where she dreams
about her grandfather during hisbirthday, whatever.
And I was Rob.
I wore a sweater yesterday.
Courtney (00:42):
You had some kind of inkling and feeling and you wore
the sweater.
Yeah, so I called my mom.
Hannah (00:45):
I was like mom, don't worry, Still got my witchy shit.
I was like I wore a sweaterAdapting.
Courtney (00:51):
Okay.
Hannah (01:02):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (01:09):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
Hannah (01:15):
This is Wicked.
Courtney (01:16):
Wanderings.
Hello Hannah, hello Courtney,it is just the two of us today.
(01:37):
Rob was too busy so with thatin mind, I am running the
switchboard, which I know Robhates.
Shout out to Rob for editing.
I will try my best not to cutanybody off when I use the start
and stop button.
It's just really temptingbecause it goes from red to
green when you stop it.
This episode, I will preface andsay, is going to be a journey.
It started with picking up abook that a couple of times I
(02:00):
had been to Barnes Noble and Ipicked up this book and I looked
at it because I'm a cover girl.
The cover was interesting to meand I really didn't know like I
knew the gist of what it wasabout, but not really anything
beyond that.
And it started with pickingthat book up and it ended with
many midnight strolls throughGoogle.
I've listened to like 10 otherpodcasts talk about the same
(02:21):
individual or individuals and Ifeel like I have more questions
than when I started.
So I'm going to preface bysaying Hot Mess Express over
here.
So we did tease it in the lastepisode.
It's going to be an episodeabout the Oakland County child
killer.
Huge trigger warning here foranybody who has a hard time
listening to things aboutchildren, I'm going to do my
(02:41):
best not to let anything get toographic.
I kind of paraphrased andsummarized a lot of things so
that way we could keep all ofthat out of here in order to
help our viewers but alsomaintain the dignity of the
little ones, babies, who werelost.
So the Oakland County childkiller was also known as the
babysitter killer, which I thinka lot of.
I feel like I have like ababysitter killer thing going,
(03:03):
because if you'll remember whenI did Tony Costa, he was also
the babysitter.
So that was one of the firstthings that stuck out to me, and
more on that later.
So right now it won't soundlike something you understand if
you don't know Hannah, but moreon that later.
Ok, so the dates that theOakland County Child Killer, or
OCCK as they are often called,were active was from February
15th 1976 through March 16th1977 in Detroit.
(03:27):
So you're looking at a veryshort window, very short.
You're looking at a very, veryshort window.
What I will say is I'm going totalk about four victims.
There are some sources.
It's really hard with this case.
Things don't line up everywhere.
There are some sources will saythat confirmed four kids
connected, potentially six, butI'm going to talk about the four
confirmed for our purpose here.
(03:48):
The biggest thing that I cansay is the status of this case
is unsolved.
What so?
They still have no clue?
Yes, and that was over 50 yearsago.
I think that a lot of what Iwas diving into when I was
researching and trying to figureout how we were going to
podcast about this, how I wasgoing to kind of approach this
topic, is hard because we talkabout a lot of cases that are
(04:09):
solved.
We're really interested in kindof understanding the dynamic of
why somebody did something, andso for this one, I think it's a
double edged sword, becauseit's very interesting of how
they were not caught, but it'salso troubling.
Obviously there's a lot ofreally strong evidence that
suggests to a lot of differentpeople, and then what you'll
find is, by the end, you toowill probably be very confused.
Hannah (04:31):
Do you have an inkling of who you think it might be
based off of the suggestedpeople?
Courtney (04:36):
What I will say is I do so.
I read the Kill Jar by J ReubenAppelman.
I've been on my TBR for a while.
J reuben appleman, I've been onmy tbr for a while and I will
say that the way that he lays itout is it kind of pushes you
into one category.
But I will say that the way hewrites I appreciate is very
matter of fact.
So he'll say, like thishappened which leads you to this
(04:56):
person, like right at the end,like he pretty much.
He kind of ends it like anattorney would, with a closing
statement like example x leadsyou to the sky, does it not?
Example b leads you to the sky,does it not?
Which I can appreciate.
But I can also acknowledge thatthere could be some bias, just
based off of the source that Iuse as my primary.
So I did use the kill jar as myprimary source and then I kind
of had to skeleton my way outand look into different things.
(05:18):
So the victims, four of them,two boys and two girls.
So just to walk through them inorder.
Mark stebbins he was found onfebruary 19th.
Jill robinson was found ondecember 26th.
Christine millich I'm reallysorry if that name is incorrect
january 21st she was found andtimothy king the final confirmed
(05:41):
on march 22nd.
And what I do want to highlightis I'm going to read you the
dates that they went missing andthe dates that their body was
found and I'm going to see ifyou notice any trend in the
different dates.
So the first one was February15th to February 19th.
December 22nd to December 26th.
January 2nd to January 21st.
(06:05):
March 16th to March 22nd.
Hannah (06:09):
Okay, so the first two, there was like four days in
between, and then the second twohad this almost the same amount
was six, six, 17 days inbetween.
Courtney (06:18):
Yeah, so the longest held in captivity or missing and
unaccounted for was Christine,so she was from January 2nd to
January 21st, so she had likethat 19 day missing.
And then Timothy King was the16th to the 22nd, so you're
looking at about six days.
But what really struck me, andI think it's interesting, is
because I read the book, soobviously it's very different
for hearing it to read.
When I was reading the book Iwas like OK, but what is this?
(06:41):
One day off from holidays?
So Mark Stebbins goes missingon February 15th, the day after
Valentine's Day.
Jill Robinson is found December26th, the day after Christmas.
Christine goes missing January2nd, the day after New Year's,
and then Timothy King goesmissing March 16th, the day
before St Patrick's Day.
How old were these kids?
So they were all between theages of 10 and 12.
Hannah (07:05):
So did it have to line up with school vacations or well
?
So my other question is itcould have.
Was there a dumping ground, orwere these found different parts
of the city?
Courtney (07:15):
so I broke it down because I wanted.
So.
There's so much similar aboutthese cases, but they are kind
of different too, so I'm gonnabreak it down and look at all of
the individuals on their own.
The first thing that stuck outto me was just those holidays,
because so the way they broke itdown in the kill jar was there
was a page let me flip, I'm notgonna quote so here I am quoting
(07:37):
not yet, but they broke it downin a way where they had showed
you the name and then dates incaptivity and so
this is like right after theforeword of the book, so you see
this first.
And that's where immediately mybrain was like holidays, which
is very interesting.
I will say.
Some sources talked about thatall of these kids had parents
who all the kids, I believe,except Timothy had parents who
(07:57):
were divorced.
Couldn't confirm thatspecifically, but if that's the
case I also thought that wasinteresting.
But anyways, let's get intoevery child in their individual
order, okay?
So mark stebbins was the firstvictim.
He was 12 years old.
Um, he was abducted leaving theamerican legion.
It was like mid-afternoon, soit wasn't like during the
(08:19):
nighttime or anything sketchy.
Um and his mom reported himmissing when he did not return
home.
So obviously she's home.
She's like, okay, where is he?
She reported him missing whenhe did not return home.
So obviously she's home.
She's like, okay, where is he?
She reports him missing, do we?
Hannah (08:28):
know why he was at the American Legion.
Courtney (08:30):
Some sources say he was at a work party for his mom,
some say he was at an event forchildren.
It was definitely like anappropriate thing that he was
supposed to be doing, okay.
So he called and said, you know, I'm going to go home, and then
didn't come home.
Four days later they found himin a parking lot near the
Michigan State Police outpost,what With his body laid out.
Yeah, and remember that onemoment, because you're going to
(08:51):
have that moment a couple moretimes.
So the reports showed that hehad been sexually assaulted and
there was evidence on his wristsand ankles of ligatures used.
None of that was released tothe public and I will also
highlight which you're going tohear me highlight a lot of
things kind of over and overagain and here.
Hannah (09:08):
I am highlighting here.
Courtney (09:10):
I am reminding you a lot of things are hard to report
in this case because it's likeif you're going chronologically,
at the time somebody didn'tknow something, but then they're
finding out years later,sometimes even up until like
2012 later, 2012 later.
This was not reported.
Why was this not in any of thefindings?
So the crime scene there wasnoted traces of semen, blood and
(09:32):
human slash pet hair.
Additionally, there wereenzymes found in saliva found on
his underwear.
Oh sorry, cringe big.
I don't.
I don't enjoy the idea of thateither.
Again, tried to keep it very Iknow I know he's very.
Hannah (09:47):
He's a big douche.
Canoe, he's definitely up there, or she.
Well, I don't know.
Courtney (09:51):
They I guess they is kind of the only way that we can
really word what happened there.
I think the hard part is thatall of the evidence that was
found seemed to be butchered.
In my opinion and that is myopinion but there's just so many
instances where things were notreported like at the time when
they reported it was like hey,he was found, he was wearing the
(10:12):
same clothes that he wentmissing in.
Um, they never had put in anyof the reports initially that
the child had been sexuallyassaulted.
It was just kind of like herehe is.
What I will say and and this istrue for all of them is that all
of the children showed thatthey had been cared for and I'm
going to stop everybody fromgoing Courtney, what this is?
Someone murdering children,what do you mean cared for?
(10:32):
The reason why he was calledthe babysitter killer was
because he had tended to thebodies, he had cleaned them, he
had washed them, they had theirnails trimmed, they were groomed
and they were in clean pressedclothes and some of them had
evidence that they had been fedand they were not malnourished.
So it's not like they werebeing kept someplace, they're
like human dolls for him kind ofyeah, kind of okay, my mind is
(10:57):
blown and we're what?
10 minutes yeah, we can't bemore than that.
In definitely not.
Maybe we're at 14 minutes, butwe definitely said weird stuff
for the beginning.
Hannah (11:04):
So I'm I'm really still focused on most of these kids
probably came from divorcedparents.
So I'm thinking, if it'ssurrounding the holidays and you
have any type of custody, I nowI'm like, okay, now I'm going
down a rabbit hole.
Courtney (11:21):
There's a lot of rabbit holes here.
Hannah (11:22):
Go down, because I have like 14 pages of notes and it
doesn't feel done Because itsounds like if these kids were
well taken care of minusobviously the abuse that they
were undergoing and death, couldthey have gone with this person
willingly?
That's the big if I'm sorry,but you said there wasn't't many
(11:45):
details, like the detailsweren't released that these kids
were abused at all.
Courtney (11:48):
No, so and what you're going to find is that they were
not all abused.
Is there a difference in?
Hannah (11:52):
sex Like oh yeah, so he only had sex with the males, yes
, or?
Courtney (11:58):
assaulted them with an object to keep it not graphic.
Yeah, so I think the biggestthing is that there was such a
contrast between what wasreleased to the public and what
was quote unquote known.
And then they're telling peopleoh, there was no evidence found
on the body.
But then we're finding outlater on oh there was.
I was buried in this report.
Oh it was.
But now you know, we didn'tknow at the time.
Hannah (12:20):
So is this police aren't doing their job, or was it just
they thought they were helpingthe case by not having all the
details released?
Courtney (12:27):
I'm going to see if you're led to the same
conclusion.
I am All right.
So the second victim, jillRobinson, was 12 years old and
if you remember she was December22nd.
1976 is when she was abductedTo refresh.
Mark went missing on February15th and then Jill was December
22nd.
So it's a pretty big gap intime, especially because Mark
was only held captive until the19th.
(12:49):
I'm wondering if there isn't avictim or two misplaced in there
.
And at first, when they sawjust Mark, they weren't.
You know, it's important tothink, like it's easy to say,
going back hindsight, we seethat it's a serial killer,
they're approaching this profile, but at the time they find one
kid and, as horrific as it is,they're not thinking like, oh,
we've got to lock our childrenup.
You know, they're just not,they're just not thinking.
There's a lot of hindsight thatwe have and there's not enough
to establish a profile.
(13:10):
So then this killer and I do saykiller, sometimes I'll say he,
and I have to correct myselfthis person really throws people
for a loop, because Jill is afemale, same age as Mark, but
female.
She left home after a fightwith her mom about dinner
preparations.
She stormed off on her bicyclewith a backpack of belongings,
as 12-year-olds did back then.
Right, okay, we've all had thatfight with our parents, yep,
(13:32):
and she goes missing.
The following day her bicyclewas found behind a local hobby
shop, but that was it.
Her backpack was gone and sowas she.
So now people are probablystarting to connect to like, oh,
okay, but also, it's beenalmost a year you're talking
february to december, that'salmost a whole year's worth of
time.
I don't necessarily know thatpeople were thinking, oh, what
about mark?
So december 26 her body wasfound alongside the highway
(13:54):
nearby to the troy policestation, within sight, according
to some sources.
So if you were inside the troypolice station according to some
of these sources and you lookedoutside, you would have been
able to see where her body wasdumped okay, I have a couple
thoughts.
Hannah (14:06):
Yeah, go ahead.
One was she tomboyish?
Courtney (14:09):
not sure wasn't stated okay, because I'm wondering if,
like, he thought she was a boyand then right, misgendered,
right, that's a good thought.
Hannah (14:17):
I didn't think about that, that's um because also 12
year old girls I mean dependingon when you develop could be a
little homely right.
Also, is there a policeconnection to this killer,
because that that's the secondtime it's found outside police
station area, like michiganstate police was mark, and now
we're at troy police station forthis one and december 26 being
(14:37):
the day after christmas, so itjust for me.
So sorry, bring up Bundy here,surprise surprise man.
Courtney (14:45):
what are we?
We're at 16 minutes, mark, andshe's bringing in Bundy.
Hannah (14:50):
I'm just thinking of like dumping grounds, of like
places you are familiar or youfeel safe yeah.
So was he an officer or did he?
They keep saying, he myself,it's hard.
It's hard Because there arefemale serial killers, as we
know.
So was that just a comfort spotor like?
Courtney (15:10):
did he want the bodies found so they could see like,
look, I did take care of thischild.
By this point reading, I wasalso thinking, potentially it
was a taunt, it was like hey,I'm right here under your nose.
Look at what I'm doing again.
I got away with it the firsttime.
We know that sometimes, whenpeople get away with something
the first time, they get thathigh.
Normally, though, when they getaway with it, I feel like from
episodes we've done, they do itsooner, because what you know
about human reinforcement, Imean they, they get it done,
(15:30):
they get away with it.
It felt good in some capacityto them.
They're going to do it againsooner.
So who found these bodies?
Random people.
It was not always the same typeof people, okay.
So, like mark, she was foundfully clothed in the clothing
she had been wearing whenabducted, including her backpack
still strapped on her back.
All these kids were found likein I'm not gonna say comfortable
(15:51):
positions, because to me thatalways felt weird when I was
reading it, because I meanthey're dead.
What?
Hannah (15:55):
was the girl's name.
Courtney (15:56):
Again, I'm sorry jill robinson very generic name, but
if you do type in jillrobinson-K.
Some places had pictures upwhich I suppose we could include
into the show notes too sopeople can look.
I mean, she, she's kind ofhomely, they're all.
They're all so young.
When I saw the pictures I waslike, oh, these kids, my heart,
(16:17):
as someone who works withchildren, my heart just kind of
broke, because they're all soyoung.
You're talking between 10 and12 years old.
Hannah (16:23):
That's oh, that's so crazy, yeah okay, sorry, I feel
like I'm you're not letting you.
You're fine, you're totallyfine.
Courtney (16:31):
So she was found fully clothed in the clothing she had
been wearing when abducted,including her backpack strapped
on her back, also in cleaned,cared for shape.
There was no evidence of likeher being neglected in any
capacity.
What I will say is different,and this is a jump scare.
She had been shot in the facewith a 12 gauge shotgun.
So the first little boy hadevidence that he was strangled.
(16:52):
So that's all.
Three of the other childrenwere strangled.
Jill had been shot in the facewith a 12 gauge shotgun.
It was because she was the girl.
The girl had to be different.
My thought is that I immediatelythink like, okay, he strangled
her, he thought she was dead andshe was not, and he panicked.
(17:14):
This person panicked and theywere like shit, this person is
not dead and it was a jump.
There's a couple of thingsabout this case that make me
feel like as calculated as thisperson was.
They either were jumpy wherethey were doing things, they got
so confident that they wereassuming they were always going
to do it right or maybe somebodywho maybe wasn't as highly
(17:36):
educated, someone who was kindof just like an opportunistic,
they were like oh, I'm going totry this.
It didn't work.
They're flying by the seat oftheir pants because I'm just
curious.
Hannah (17:44):
Did she have strangulation marks or we're not
sure?
Courtney (17:46):
it was not mentioned.
If it was, however, I willalways preface by saying that
all of the sources are verydifferent and that, with as many
things seemingly went missing,it's very hard to figure out
what was actually true and thenwhat was not.
The autopsy revealed that therewas no sexual assault, but that
she had been fed and cared forwhile in captivity.
Like I said, but no sexualassault.
(18:07):
So to me now I'm like okay,this is where this person is.
Sexual assault.
On the first male victim,nothing.
On the second victim, who wasfemale, there was white pet fur
found on the body and there wassome human hair found on her
body.
Again, not that any of it wasmentioned.
When they initially did thereporting, it was kind of left
as this like well, there was noevidence there.
And I know a lot of people arethinking like courtney, okay,
(18:29):
but you know, dna testing andthings, it was still not really
noted.
So again, kind of weird.
So now people in town are kindof like, okay, I'm not letting
my kid go someplace right now.
They're starting to get alittle bit like hmm, is there
something else happening here?
So enter your third victim,christine millich.
Third victim 10 years old.
So she's the youngest of thevictims.
(18:52):
January 2nd 1977 is when shegoes missing.
Hannah (18:56):
Oh, so there was another girl.
Courtney (18:58):
Mm-hmm.
Hannah (18:59):
Oh, okay.
Courtney (18:59):
Two girls, two boys.
Okay, sorry, all right.
Which is why, initially, solike.
Again, when you're reading thebook that I use as my source,
that first page lays it out.
So there's all four of them andyou can tell by the names two
girls, two boys.
Okay, the names two girls, twoboys, okay.
So you're like okay, thisperson didn't care.
(19:19):
But the more you dive into it,you're like but they did care.
And then the more you unravelabout their suspect list too, it
doesn't make any sense.
I found myself a couple oftimes throughout being like are
they really all related?
Was there somebody who had adifferent mo?
That was kind of likepiggybacking off of it.
I have a thought go ahead.
Hannah (19:34):
Okay, I don't know if it's something you thought of.
So if these kids were takenfrom broken homes, did he think
he, they think that they werehelping them by you know what?
You're going to have amiserable existence being from
broken homes.
I'm going to help you by doingthis.
Courtney (19:52):
So I didn't think about that.
But when I got into looking atthe suspects, they had so many
suspects.
So there were some from greathomes, there were some from
broken homes and I can see where, for one of the people that I'm
thinking about, I could seesomeone being like I'm going to
spare you.
What then makes me think likehow did they know?
Because there was no evidencethat the kids have been like
(20:12):
stalked or anything like that'strue.
So it really did seem like, ifyou think about it, mark was
coming home from the AmericanLegion.
Yep, seems like it could havebeen opportunistic.
He was on his way home.
You saw him out.
He was by himself.
Grab him.
Jill stormed out of her house togo leave.
She was upset, she wasvulnerable Maybe you were
(20:39):
watching but again by herselfleft her house, christine also
by herself.
So she failed to return homefrom the 7-eleven where her mom
allowed her to walk and purchasemagazines.
It was not that far again.
Remember we're in 1977, verydifferent time.
Uh, you know, she really wantedto go get these magazines.
Her mom was like okay, fine,here's the money.
Go get your magazine and comeright back 15 minutes tops, be
careful.
Crossing the road and likedon't, don't dilly-dally, come
(20:59):
right back.
So after three hours when shereturned, failed to return home.
Her mom called and reported hermissing.
I have no idea how this womanlasted three hours.
Yeah, because at this point weknow in the area that two other
kids have been kidnapped andkilled.
So christine is the one who hasgone the longest, which is also
interesting.
So you're looking at, the boyswere sexually assaulted, the
(21:22):
girls were not, but Christine isfemale and she was gone the
longest.
So, like what was happeningthere, was it just?
And how old was Christine?
10.
She was the youngest, not bymuch.
We've got one 10 year old, one11 year old and two 12 year olds
.
Courtney, there's so manythoughts in my head.
(21:43):
So 19 days after she is takenor goes missing, a mail carrier
found her body in a snowbank,again fully clothed in the
clothes she had been abducted inon the side of a rural road
within view of homes, butthere's no police department
mentioned in this one.
So it's almost like this personlikes the idea of somebody
catching them.
The autopsy suggested that shehad been strangled 24 hours
before her body was discoveredand similar to jill.
(22:04):
There was no evidence of sexualassault, white pet fur found on
the body and human hair, butagain not noted during the time.
So many thoughts.
I mean it's.
I need a minute's process.
It's a lot, it's a lot and wehaven't even got to the fourth
victim yet we haven't evengotten to the fourth victim yet
and I've got like five pages ofsuspects.
I can see why it's been 50years in this case is not solved
(22:28):
.
So you've you're on your thirdvictim two girls, one boy, two
strangled, one shot in the facewith a shotgun yeah, I feel like
all my theories are out thewindow one sexually assaulted,
two not see where I'm sayinglike.
At some point while I'm readingthese I'm like there's enough
to be connected, or is it acopycat?
two police departments, twopolice departments one snow bank
also cared for, also fed.
(22:51):
The times of capture are alldifferent and it's.
It's really interesting becauseI started to dig into like and
you'll see, like on my last twovictims I talk about when the
autopsy revealed that they hadpassed they're clearly okay.
I mean, the shotgun blast tothe face, you, you, you
(23:12):
obviously killed them there andleft them there.
So what did you do?
Just push her out of the carand just.
You know what I'm saying.
Hannah (23:20):
Like I just, and nobody heard that if it's a shot of the
police station, exploded herface outside of the police
station.
Courtney (23:28):
God yeah, no, okay all right fourth, the fourth victim
and probably the most knownvictim, timothy King.
So when we did a episode withCousin Mark last week, he was
one of the fun facts that wetalked about.
He was the KFC one.
So he was the final knownvictim, 11 years old, and he
(23:49):
went missing on March 16th 1977.
So he left home to go to thepharmacy nearby to buy candy
never returned.
An extensive search wascompleted for him, which I do
think is important to note, butI believe his family was still
nuclear.
They were still together.
Nothing was discovered untilhis body was found on march 22nd
in the evening by two teenagers.
His body had been left in aditch.
(24:11):
Estimated he had been killedsix hours before he was found.
So now that window is comingcloser and closer.
So yeah he's now killing peopleduring the day because if they
found him in the evening and hisbody estimated by the medical
examiner was six hours beforeshowing that he had been killed,
you killed him in the middle ofthe day.
Hannah (24:30):
If you're finding them at like 6 pm or 7 pm, you killed
him at noon well, and I hopealso they're taking into account
I know this was, you know, the70s but the temperature of the
place too.
So if they're looking at theliver for the time of death, I
mean, these times of year arereally cold because we're
looking at january, december,march, yeah, february and
(24:50):
february, like he only was.
Courtney (24:53):
So some people on different sources will call him
like the snow killer too,because it seems like he was
only active during the winteragain from what we have evidence
and then not being found.
Hannah (25:02):
And then, all of a sudden, the killings stop.
Where did they go?
Did they die?
Did they get caught forsomething else?
Courtney (25:11):
so timothy is the most interesting in opinion because
there's the most information andyou have to factor poor Mark
was the first one.
Yeah, they didn't really knowto like do all the things.
They didn't know how to pullout all the bells and whistles
by Timothy.
They were like here we go again.
So during the time he was heldcaptive, his family did a press
(25:31):
conference and his mom had madea statement about just wanting
him to come home safely.
Just let him go so she couldfeed him his favorite food,
which was Kentucky fried chicken.
The autopsy results showed thathe had a final meal of KFC
shortly before his time of death, Again also cleaned and groomed
Stop Prior to being strangled,and his autopsy showed evidence
(25:53):
of sexual assault with a foreignobject.
Hannah (25:55):
Court.
Courtney (25:57):
What strangled and his autopsy showed evidence of
sexual assault with a foreignobject court.
What?
And this is where in my mindI'm like this guy was cocky or
so.
So there's, there's multipletheories here, right?
So did he see one right oneopportunity here?
Did he see the press conference?
And he was like maliciously,like I'm gonna show them, I know
I saw what they were doing.
Or did they see the pressconference and think, oh, he
(26:21):
really likes, he really likeskfc that's what I'm gonna give
him for his last meal, becausethere is some kind of nurturing
piece, yes, or is it neither ofthose things?
And he says to the child what,what's your favorite meal?
I want to give you somethingnice to eat.
And he says kfFC.
Hannah (26:34):
Did these kids all go to the same school At least like
anything else connecting them atall?
Not that I could find.
Courtney (26:42):
So weird.
I think also this victim,timothy, really became part of
the profiling that they did forhim, for this killer.
So much speculation into thatmind game aspect, with KFC
tending to the bodies.
That's when people were reallydown the rabbit hole of theories
where they were like is this, Imean, this person is sick, but
is this person like sick, sick,or are they really just trying
(27:04):
to care?
Like did they really hear themother's pleas and think, oh, I
should feed them?
what they want and what I willalso say is that the father of
timothy barry king.
He sued the michigan statepolice, believing that they were
hiding the identity of hisson's murderer.
Barry was also a lawyer, sokeep that in mind when you're
thinking about suing him, and healso kept fighting in the case
(27:24):
to keep it open and find hisson's killer up until he died in
2020.
He it became like his life'smission to try to figure out and
dig deep and talk to reporters.
He had talked talked to JReuben Appelman, who had written
this book.
He was very, very, veryinvolved in saying like this
person is here and he had a lotof, in my opinion, really
helpful things to say.
(27:45):
Some other notable evidence toconsider that, like I'm sorry
this part is just kind of thrownhere is like I didn't know
where to put some of this stuff.
I was like these things areimportant and when we're
considering, like, who thisperson is, but I didn't really
know where to put them.
So the original police reportsleft out that the sexual
assaults of both boys happened,that it was done with an object
and neither of the femalevictims had evidence of sexual
(28:06):
assault.
That feels huge to me.
Very huge that feels like, if Icould bold and underline that
feels like monumental to me,like what?
What would have been the pointof leaving it out?
And how would you have notobserved that, as a medical
examiner, three out of the fourvictims were strangled as the
means of death which is alsosticking out to me, that's a big
similarity one being shot witha shotgun.
So I'm thinking maybe thekiller broke the pattern due to
(28:28):
something unexpected you knowsome people talked about.
Maybe jill's case was not infact related.
The rest of her case matches up, but was it something where
something else had happenedentirely?
I feel like the person gotspooked.
Truthfully, after reading all ofit, I think that he or they
thought that they strangled Jill, thought she was done, she
moved or made a sound, or herbody just reacted the way bodies
(28:49):
sometimes do after they've been, you know, killed.
I don't know.
I think that it was a jump, ajump move.
It was like, oh my god, what doI do?
And it was just a reactionarysituation.
Or potentially there's twopeople who are committing these
murders.
That also played into my head,because if there's two people,
maybe that's why there's femaleand male victims.
Yeah, I would love to know ifher, her, hyoid, hyoid, hyoid.
Hannah (29:11):
What is it right here when you strangle someone?
Oh yeah, pop snapped, we couldlook into that.
Courtney (29:17):
We could definitely look into that.
So, thinking about all thethings that connect these kids,
the next biggest thing isobviously that all four victims
were between the ages of 10 and12.
That's a very clear, veryobvious.
I mean, that's the onlyconnection I could come up with,
besides the fact that they wereall in Michigan area, right?
What I also found interestingnot necessarily evidence, but
(29:40):
two writers attempted to write abook before this author did.
When the author asked one ofthem why, why didn't you finish,
his response was there wasn'tan ending.
That's what.
That's what.
But to me that that was like.
That stuck out in my head.
As there's somebody playing thebackground of like I'm not
gonna allow whatever this is tohappen.
(30:01):
Like there's someone in thebackground.
Hannah (30:02):
In my opinion, that's just playing defense, keeping
all of these things out of themedia, keeping all these people
away and because how else, withthe story like that's, that's
not fair to these kids, like,well, I'm just not gonna write
it because there's no way maybethey were threatened.
Courtney (30:14):
I mean, and I think once I start talking about the
second half of this case, whereyou're talking about the people
who were involved, I think youmight reflect back on that and
understand like, okay, thisperson might have been
threatened.
Maybe this person had family.
Some of the things thathappened here were too weird to
even be a fluke.
So I also found in my journeythrough all of this that the
(30:38):
white dog hair was likely from asmall dog or a terrier which is
important.
That's what I was thinking, sothat makes sense.
What also was reallyinteresting to me is that they
believed that one of thevehicles used to transport some
of the bodies had gold carpetfibers.
But the like it was reallyweird because they were talking
about different vehicles which Ididn't get into in my notes
because there was like seven.
(30:58):
It was like a witch hunt ofvehicles, very hard to keep
track of, especially if youdon't know vehicles that well.
But it looked like they weresuggesting that potentially the
girls and boys were kept indifferent places because both of
the male victims had goldcarpet fibers on their body when
they were found and that thegirls had no carpet fibers at
all, which was indicative,possibly, of them being kept in
someplace concrete tile, etcetera that didn't have carpet,
(31:21):
or at least not the same placeas the male victims.
Okay, odd.
And I will also say that one ofthe suspects we are going to
talk about their family had asmall white terrier.
Hannah (31:30):
But there must have been something else to connect them
besides a white dog 100.
Courtney (31:34):
That was more of like the sealing the deal you have a
white dog.
Hannah (31:38):
You have a white dog, it's like a thread of evidence,
like the other episode I didwhere it's like what tiny thread
although I had like a reallyblonde moment where I was like
oh, the thread like no, like his, it was his mom that got him in
trouble.
Courtney (31:49):
Not in trouble, but right, yeah, they caught him
essentially, and I'm sure shewas surprised too.
Hannah (31:53):
That was I thought it was like oh no, I remember what
I said.
I said oh, he got adopted.
Like what are you talking about?
Like the piece of thread was inthe bassinet, I don't know.
Courtney (32:00):
Anyways, we, we, you know you had to be there.
I guess the final thing that Ithought was really well, not the
final, but the final part thatI'm going to note here is that
Polaroid pictures are mentionedin nearly every single suspect
who is interviewed in somecapacity, which to me suggests a
link between the suspects orshared knowledge among them.
So whether they were aware ofsomething that happened, like if
(32:23):
you and I know that somebodyelse did something bad and we
both know, even though we didn'tparticipate.
Something about Polaroidpictures to me when I was
reading was like, yeah, that's athing.
They kept coming up and I knowit was the 70s and everyone's
like, oh, my God, courtney, ofcourse they're Polaroid pictures
, but the people kept mentioningit as evidence, like, oh, it
could have been this personbecause they had Polaroid, or
that person showed me thisPolaroid, or this person had a
box of Polaroids.
(32:45):
It just kept coming up andgetting highlighted and then
towards the end of the novelagain, sorry, some of this
evidence is kind of weird theway that it's kind of laid out,
but there was an FBI report thathypothesized that all four
bodies were cleaned with aspecific chemical called Fisohex
.
I mean, it was actually aproduct that was taken off the
market and typically used inlaundry companies.
So laundromats, dry cleaners,that kind of thing.
(33:07):
The author highlighted andpretty much bolded that the
first place he would have looked, hearing that information, was
the laundromat directly next tothe pharmacy that Timothy went
missing from.
When he followed his idea, hedid discover an employee that
had sexual misconduct report andthat employee had a known
associate with one of the topsuspects.
And that just begins the ringof where everything goes.
Hannah (33:31):
Okay, but when you were talking about the Polaroids, I
noticed when I was looking upthe picture of one of the
victims that they talked aboutsome type of child sex ring
slash, child pornography Okay.
Courtney (33:46):
And that all comes into it too.
So I'm going to start kind ofbackwards from the book.
So if you've read the book,you're like Courtney, what are
you doing?
You're starting kind ofbackwards.
But before I end this off today, I want to talk about one
particular thing that happened.
That was just too weird, okay,um, so there was a witness that
the author spoke about in thebook that he talked to.
(34:06):
His name was sebastian and hehad said years later that he saw
christine before shedisappeared, leaving the
7-eleven with a police officer.
He called the hotline numberfor the tips during that time
and he had, you know, he hadthreatened to.
He told them and theythreatened to come to his home.
He said after Tim was killed,the police came to the school
and took him aside and told himto change his story.
(34:27):
Years later, he was dating agirl whose father was a police
officer and he asked her to seta meeting between him and her
father, having this be somebodythat he trusted.
Now he said can you please setaside this meeting?
I'd like to talk to him.
He told that policemaneverything, and the police
officer's response was you stayhome, keep your doors locked.
Five, okay, five days later hewas shot and killed.
(34:50):
In high school sebastian told afriend the same story.
So years go by, he tells thefriends the same story.
The friend called the statepolice.
Three days later he was founddead in his parents garage,
ruled a suicide that he gassedhimself out.
A year after that happenedsebastian told another friend.
A day later the same policeofficer he saw with christine
came to the school, busted hisfriend for weed.
The very next day after beingbusted the friend was found dead
(35:12):
and ruled a suicide, havingalso gassed himself out in the
family garage.
When he was 21 he finallyconfided in his mother who he
had been hiding all of it from.
She told him mind his business,but she did call and report it.
The police showed up at hishouse.
The same cop he saw withchristine beat sebastian until
he was handcuffed.
Sebastian called him out sayinghe saw him with christine that
day.
(35:32):
He knows what he.
He was beaten until he wasunconscious and woke up in the
hospital.
Sebastian also recalled thatthe clerk from the day he saw
Christine leave the 7-Elevendied years ago of also a
reported suicide.
Hannah (35:45):
I mean it would make sense if there was a cop
involved.
Courtney (35:49):
Mm-hmm, it would still make sense, especially with not
having all the evidence, orsome things were not said to
anybody dropping of the bodiesyeah, there's a lot here that
really like immediately I'mlooking at it and I'm like so
either it was a police officerwho was doing it, it was
somebody who was prominent thatwas another thought to me,
because the police often willprotect prominent people in an
(36:10):
area.
We've known that about historyor was it a relative of a police
officer?
I know sometimes policeofficers will hide things that
their family does.
Hannah (36:18):
I mean, what better way if you're going to have a sex
ring like that?
I mean what?
Courtney (36:22):
better way to have it right under the police's nose
right.
Hannah (36:25):
And, like you know, obviously the officers have to
have their uniforms cleaned,right, so it would make sense if
there was a connection with adry cleaners Damn.
Courtney (36:34):
There's so much and I think that, unfortunately,
wonders, that's where we'regoing to stop for today, what I
have to stop us, because thereare so many suspects that it
would be unfair to leave peoplehearing just a few of them and
not all of them.
But Courtney Hannah looks likeshe wants to punch me directly
(36:57):
in the face right now my brain'sjust going a mile a minute.
Hannah (37:01):
Have fun thinking about this for a week I'm gonna have
to, yeah, like I'm really gonnahave to.
Holy shit, this is interestingit.
Courtney (37:09):
I'm telling you it's a rabbit hole.
I have to say the kill jar.
Uh, speaking strictly from likea book lover's perspective now,
and not like the true crimelover.
I gave it a four star ongoodreads.
Everybody who knows me knows Iam stingy with my good, good
goodreads stars.
I love the content.
I think that the way that theauthor brought it about was
great.
I just have a really hard timewhen the author connects a lot
of their personal life in, andso that's the only thing that
(37:31):
kept it from a five star for me.
Nothing against the author.
I think that for him thetelling of the story probably
directly related with you knowhe had a personal connection to
the area and that's probably whyhe was interested.
But for the sake of my interestnot being from the area, I
think that that part was justkind of for me.
Hannah (37:49):
Oh court, I'm so excited for the second half.
Courtney (37:51):
So definitely add the kill jar to your TBR shelf if it
isn't already there, but don'tread it before next week.
We want you guys to besurprised, okay, so let's do
pick a card any card.
Pick a card, any card.
Here you go, hannah.
Pick a card, any card.
(38:12):
Don't throw them on the floor.
That's the other part you wantme to read it.
Hannah (38:17):
Yeah, any card, don't throw them on the floor.
That's the other part.
You want me to read it?
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay, we have a Jack of Spadesand it is for Lenita Oliveira.
On September 4, 2007, skeletalremains were found in the woods
about 200 yards off Route 122 inRutland.
The victim had been reportedmissing in Worcester by family
members on May 4th 2007.
If you have any informationabout this, please call
(38:40):
1-855-MA-SOLVE.
And again, that's the Jack ofSpades.
Courtney (38:45):
I always like to look at the pictures.
Hannah (38:48):
She looks like such a happy person, and that's such a
good photo too.
Courtney (38:53):
Does it say how old she was?
Hannah (38:56):
She must be in her 40s.
To me, yeah it doesn't say.
Courtney (39:00):
And that's such a rough area too.
If you're not familiar from thearea, rutland is very desolate,
like yeah.
Hannah (39:07):
Even saying Rutland, it's like oh.
Courtney (39:11):
Yeah, it's really out there.
I always think of the Rutlandprison camps when I think about
Rutland.
Well, all right, take careWanderers.
Bye guys.
Hannah (39:23):
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme, Hannah, and co-hosted by me.
Courtney (39:29):
Courtney, and it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (39:32):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
Stay curious, keep exploringand always remember to keep on
(39:54):
wandering.
Thank you.
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