March 19, 2025 • 61 mins
The Oakland County Child Killer case reveals a disturbing web of suspects connected through a child exploitation ring, with evidence of police corruption and wealthy influence obstructing justice for four murdered children.
• Christopher Bush, son of GM's CFO, failed a polygraph test that remained hidden for 30 years
• Gregory Green had a history of molesting hundreds of children and was linked to Bush
• Suspicious "suicides" of key suspects and a police officer showed no gunshot residue
• Ted Lamborghini refused to take a polygraph and chose life imprisonment instead
• North Fox Island operated as a front for child exploitation under Gerald Richards
• Evidence suggests police corruption, with records destroyed and investigations halted
• DNA evidence wasn't tested until decades after the crimes
• Forensic profile points to a killer seeking validation with ritualistic behavior
• All suspects were interconnected through a larger child exploitation network
If you have theories about this case or suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear your thoughts and insights on this complex, disturbing case.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Courtney (00:00):
It feels like it's very early because of Daylight
Savings Time happening here, andalso I feel like every Daylight
Savings Time, I have this rantabout how Daylight Savings Time
is stupid because it literallydoesn't do anything.
Okay.
Hannah (00:23):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:30):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is.
Wicked Wanderings hello hannah,hello corny.
(00:56):
We are back for another episodeof the oakland county child
killer so fucking time again.
If you haven't listened to ourlast episode from last week,
you'll definitely want to goback and listen to part one.
That's going to be the part allabout the different victims and
the evidence, kind of, beforewe jump into the very scrambled
list of suspects and how they'reall interwebbed.
(01:17):
I will also put another triggerwarning on this.
It does involve children andthe killing of children.
I'm keeping things very, very,very, very discreet when it
comes to things like sexualassault, but that is included in
here.
So if that is something that ischallenging for you, I would
recommend just pausing andwaiting for our next episode to
come out.
So, while there are manysuspects, I am probably the most
(01:38):
excited to talk aboutChristopher Bush.
So Christopher Bush is the sonof the cfo for general motors,
so immediately privileged yes,I'm thinking money, I'm thinking
access, I'm thinking power athis disposal.
His family had been rumored tohave even paid off families
after being molested by theirson in the past.
So oh god, like right off thebat, we're starting like I bet
(02:02):
it was that guy.
So yes, and he's gotconnections that are gonna lead
him all over the place.
You're starting like I bet itwas that guy, so, yes, and he's
got connections that are goingto lead him all over the place.
You're going to keep hearingchristopher bush, christopher
bush, christopher bush,everywhere.
Fun fact, he was given apolygraph and it was the only
one a prosecutor was present for, like pretty much ever at that
time, which is interesting yeahsomebody must have known that
(02:24):
there was something there.
Um and his own family paid andadministered a private polygraph
that was actually buried inevidence and it was specific to
just mark's death, which isimportant.
He failed it, but the worldwouldn't know that until 30
years later.
Again, I know if you'velistened to the first episode
you're like oh my god, corny,fast forward, this is scrambled,
this is all over the place,because it seems like there was
(02:44):
evidence of police corruptionand there was definitely
evidence of people hidingevidence.
Um, so you're gonna hear a lotof things like oh yep, but this
we didn't know about at the time.
So we did not know that hefailed that polygraph test until
30 years later.
So 20 years ago.
Hannah (02:57):
Also, is there a connection?
Because doesn't general motorslike supply, almost like every
police cruiser known a man?
Courtney (03:04):
and that's an an interesting one that I actually
didn't look into, but I'm surethat it was.
And even I know last episodeHannah and I, kind of at the end
, were like spitballing talkingabout all these different
theories that just she and I hadand we were thinking about if
someone had access to power,someone had access to money, and
then why would the policeprotect someone?
Hannah (03:30):
Well, if they're that powerful and they have that much
money, maybe money's liningsomebody's pocket.
Well, and also, when you talkedabout the, the girls and the
boys were obviously in differentplaces.
I mean, if you have money andpower, you obviously have real
estate and probably emptyfactory basements that may not
be being used right concrete.
Courtney (03:41):
Yeah, so he was already being pursued for
molestation charges from hisfamily home, along along with
another associate named GregoryGreen, who we'll get into later,
and Gregory had told the policethat Christopher Gregory Green
because he's also on the suspectlist for the obvious reason
that we just talked about.
After all of that goes downlike the two of them are trying
(04:12):
to turn on each other.
Chris goes free, gregory getscharged and sentenced for life.
That's all you need to knowright now.
So, of course, money and powerChris is from money and power,
greg is from absolutely nothinghe got wait, he got charged and
put for life, not for thekilling for something else.
Hannah (04:27):
That we'll get into when we talk about.
Courtney (04:29):
Okay, so they were talking about molestation
charges for something else.
Okay, they do this a lot,apparently.
So march 4th 1977, chris wasbonded out for the charges.
12 days later, timothy king wasabducted.
Six days later his body wasfound.
So okay, yeah he gets out 12days later goes by, timothy is
abducted six days later, hisbody is found so greg is not out
(04:51):
.
So green could not have donetimothy, because green was in
prison yeah, but chris, chriscould have so.
Later, green's cellmate tellseveryone in prison that he
claimed to have gotten away withkilling four children.
So how did green do that ifchris was the only one who was
out?
Three days into the time thattimothy was being held captive,
(05:12):
somebody reported seeing chriswith two minors at his lake
house his family lake house.
Uh, the tip was called in butthe detective was away.
So nobody was dispatched to thecottage and the message was
delivered to the detective muchtoo late, after timothy's body
was already found, because thedetective was on vacation um,
isn't there someone that'staking his calls when he's on
vacation?
Hannah (05:31):
you would think what you would think if you had open
cases like that.
You're like I understandeveryone needs a break.
I get that, but no one'scovering your damn case why not
apparently, not so literally?
Courtney (05:44):
the timothy has been missing for three days, then the
detective goes on vacationsomeone calls in a tip to say,
hey, this guy who we know hasbeen molesting little boys, who
was out for you know, shruggy,who knows why, was seen with
minors, which he's obviously notallowed to do, given the fact
that even if you weren't fullycharged, you're probably still
going to be some kind of sexualoffender and didn't get it.
(06:06):
So they dropped the ball onthat big time.
Yeah Well, fast forward alittle bit for Chris Major
douche canoe, but we will leadwith the fact that he was found
dead in his home.
Big shock here.
Everyone's becoming found dead.
At this point.
He had been shot through thehead with a 22.
Ok, this point.
He had been shot through thehead with a 22.
Okay, a long gun, for anyonewho's listening, a long gun, 22
(06:27):
caliber shotgun.
Was immediately ruled suicide,despite the fact that he was
completely enveloped in hisbedding in his head, shot
through the forehead, which ispretty challenging to do with a
long gun.
Yeah, no, you couldn't do that.
No blunts, no bloods, better,none.
How do you get shot anywherewithout bloods?
Better, and no gun residue wasfound on his hands.
(06:50):
Okay, also, four bullet casingswere found, but only one shot
had been fired.
Hannah (06:57):
Okay just to clarify the person that was quote-unquote
suicide yeah was green.
No, green was jail.
Courtney (07:04):
Yeah, this was the police officer flin, okay, so
sorry I'm following.
Hannah (07:09):
This is a lot of names.
Courtney (07:10):
This is christopher bush, who's okay.
His father was the cfo forgeneral, so and christopher's
very important in this becausehe links everything everywhere.
Two different reports out thereabout the gun's placement.
When found, both note that heshot himself, which is
interesting.
Hannah (07:25):
So the gun was left then , yeah, it was still there, but
there's no, okay, if you knowanything about guns and I'm not
anything about guns, but I knowthings about guns.
Courtney (07:34):
You cannot do that there I mean and and they did
get into the book like there areways that you could fire a
weapon right with the assistanceof other things, like putting
something around the trigger andpulling it or something if
you're gonna kill yourself court, why would you pick a long gun?
Unless it was the only thingyou had access to.
That's the only thing I couldthink of.
Right, if you don't have accessto anything, I mean I wouldn't
pick a gun anyways, but anywaysso that's another conversation.
(07:59):
Five cotton swabs were completed, five of his hands, but there
was no gunshot residue found,which tells me you didn't fire
the weapon you didn't.
So that's like forensics 101,you would think you would think
so.
After he was found dead, Iremember green gregory was
sentenced to life in prison.
Those killings stopped and thetask force that they dedicated
(08:23):
to the work was disbanded.
So they thought that it wasthem, but they didn't come out
and say that.
Because why would you disbandan entire task force that you
put up and it's not consideredsolved dude?
It's not considered solved dude.
Hannah (08:36):
The police really fucked up on this one, a hundred
percent so obviously beingbought or or threatened or
something, because that's justcorrect in 2008, so more
recently.
Courtney (08:46):
I mean 2008 was a while ago, but more recently
that's when I graduated highschool, wasn't that?
long ago, a victim ofchristopher's testified that he
had firsthand evidence thattimothy king was linked.
He alleged that he saw apicture of timothy that
christopher showed him when hewas being held.
He also said he was forced intosexual acts with someone who
looked like timothy and that hewas present when chris dropped
(09:09):
him off at ted lamborghini'shome.
This narrative report was notreleased to the press.
Both bush and green were deadby this time, and ted
lamborghini is a number, a nameyou'll want to remember because
he comes into play again lateron too.
So you're gonna start seeingall these people are connecting.
I need, like a map, a map tree,something.
I read it and I need a map.
So all of that is going on.
(09:29):
Now you've got, decades later,somebody saying, hey, I was a
victim who was molested by chrisbush and I was forced into
sexual acts with somebody wholooked like timothy.
But I obviously uh male malewhich does go along with the
male, and you're gonna find thatfrom basically after we're done
talking about the suspects,where two of them are female,
everything we talk about withchildren is gonna go right to
(09:51):
male everything, everything else, all of the molestation, all of
that goes right to so eitherthey chose girls because they
looked like males, or they weretrying to throw off the scent
Right, or, if it was a sex ring,they had to Clientele made it
want it?
Yeah, thank you.
That was trying to, but thosekids were not sexually assaulted
(10:13):
, so what did they want them for?
Just the pictures.
And the problem also becomesthat one of the girls was the
one who was held longest, whichis interesting.
Why was she gone for so long ifshe didn't serve the function
you needed for that long?
Hannah (10:27):
Also now I'm thinking did that detective go on
vacation because he was told to?
And make sure no one's coveringyour case.
Courtney (10:34):
Yeah, maybe he was involved.
Maybe he was right down thestreet.
Hannah (10:37):
My brain hurts, courtney , so some other, some other
things, can we?
Courtney (10:41):
solve this Like I want to solve this Some other things
.
Can we solve this like I wantto solve this?
Some other things that Ireflected on, and I know because
in my notes I put reflectionmeaning like.
After I read the book I waslike what, oh, I like that.
Um, the medical.
It's about the medical examinerwho examined chris when he was
found in his home shot to death.
Dr robert sillery, whocompleted the autopsy, was
actually investigated two yearsafter his report that he did for
(11:03):
chris for providing fraudulentautopsy results.
In a different case it wassuspected that he had taken
money for bribes and led to himultimately being suspended from
practicing.
So two years is not that longof a window.
So how do we not think that?
that's what happened to also,what is really interesting and I
didn't put this in my notes,but I'm remembering it, brain
(11:23):
power is that the way that thechain of evidence typically goes
is like if something is, ifsomething is used in a crime,
like if there was a crime inyour, your house and that box
was the murder weapon, theywould not let you be like I have
a special attachment to thatbox, I need to have access to it
and keep it at all times.
Yeah, right, sorry, chris's dadwas able to keep the murder
(11:47):
weapon.
He had custody of it the wholetime.
It never left the home.
And it just tells me that thepolice Sure, mr General Motors
Right, of course you could keepit.
The police who reported to thathouse knew him very well,
because why else would you havebeen like, oh yeah, that's fine.
I think that, and anothertheory that I have is that
potentially the father was theone who was involved in all that
(12:07):
and he was making his son bethe scapegoat, and then he
killed his son off when hestarted to catch on.
Hannah (12:12):
So this might not be a universal opinion, and but it is
always something I think about.
Like, when we talk about peoplethat molest and hurt children,
it doesn't just come out of theblue.
No, there has to be a natureand nurture component to it,
right?
Courtney (12:27):
and I know you talked about this because of mark,
people were assaulted in theirpast right.
So of course it would makesense if his father molested him
right if the father is involved, or just, in my opinion, like
if the father was giving himmoney to fund his lifestyle, to
be like, hey, I'm doing thesethings and I need you to be the
person who's in charge of thembecause I'm too prominent.
Hannah (12:46):
If you're going to do this, then you need to do it.
Courtney (12:48):
high end style Right because there's just no way that
all of that is related.
Barry, who remember was thevictim, tim's father, he really
believed that Green was in jailat the time of his like he was
in jail at the time of his son'smurder and at the end, when I
was actually researching, it wasdetermined by the Michigan
State Police that that couldhave been incorrect.
He was determined that he couldhave been out on bond at the
(13:09):
time that Timothy was killed,even though their own record
said that it wasn't.
So really, and this is where Iwant to get into talking about
Green, because then I was like,okay, we got to go back.
At first I was like OK, green'san accessory, he doesn't really
need to be included.
I will say again, major DoucheCanoe died in prison in 1995,
allegedly of a heart attack whenhe was 47.
So some background informationon Mr Gregory Green.
(13:31):
He was described as violent, aloose cannon, hostile,
unpredictable.
He was born into less fortunatecircumstances than Chris and
was bitter about the contrastthat the two received for
punishment for linked crimes,which I think is justified,
because I will say as much as Idon't want to have the back of a
man who molests children.
I do think that you know thefact that one of you has money
(13:52):
and one of you doesn't doesn'tmean that there should be a
difference.
Yeah, no I totally agree withthat.
So when he was arrested withBush, he had already been on
probation for charges related tosexual assault of children in
California.
So he had been granted asuspended sentence and allowed
to leave the state to completehis probation.
So before he even knew Chris,he was already molesting
children In California.
(14:13):
He admitted to molesting andassaulting hundreds of children
aged 6 to 14.
That's why I said major doucheto you.
Hundreds?
Yeah, that was an estimate, I'msorry, what?
So he was working with apedophile friend who ran a
children's baseball league who,in exchange for coaching, he
would bring him children tomolest.
Hannah (14:30):
Stop Court.
Yeah, yep, I literally want tovomit.
I'm not kidding, it's a lot,it's a lot.
Courtney (14:36):
I'm trying to keep it as discreet as possible for
everybody so you can learn justthe facts.
These poor babies learn justthe the facts babies.
One boy who had becomeuncooperative good for him
during his molestation good forhim was strangled until he
couldn't breathe.
The boy did survive, but thismethod links directly to the
methods of the oakland countychild killer and I do think that
(14:56):
it's also important tohighlight here and this I
realized after the fact thischild who was strangled but
survived, he called 911 and gothim help.
So like there's a compassionpiece here which makes me think
about could Green have been theone who killed those other kids?
Because of the compassion pieceof like one he was
(15:18):
underprivileged himself.
Okay, so he's trying to helpthese children, he was caring
for the children, which makes methink, okay, it's kind of like
how he felt badly about helpthese children, he was caring
for the children, which makes methink, okay, it's kind of like
how he felt badly about thechild that he strangled.
Um, so, interestingly, when hewas arrested he was found to be
in possession of a police issuedscanner and a radio.
He was confirmed later to havebeen a confidential narcotics
(15:39):
informant for the huntingtonbeach police department.
Another link to the police didyou need that green?
Hannah (15:44):
yeah, so, and that was out in california, but he was
still linked to a policedepartment in california another
thing I thought of if the childwas strangled and it didn't
work, maybe they're like wedon't want that to happen again
and that's why that girl wasshot in the head.
Okay, okay, yeah, like we can'tlet that happen again not again
(16:09):
.
Courtney (16:10):
So after confessing to those acts that he had
committed in california, he wascommitted to a psychiatric
hospital in california for oneyear only oh, is that how long
it takes to just cure people,like one year after his release
he moved to michigan and linkedup with christopher bush.
One year after his release, theoakland county child killer
(16:34):
murders began and there's nointernet like how the do you
find these people?
Hannah (16:40):
I don't want to know that comes in later too.
Courtney (16:43):
So november 15th 1976, that's a month before jill's
gonna go missing.
So you're looking at betweenthe first and the second victim.
A juvenile runaway report wascleared when it was determined
that the boy had spent six daysat green's house hidden in a
concealed attic room while heworked.
No charges were filed againstgreen court no so then we've got
(17:06):
how, later later on in life,green cellmate in prison reports
that he claimed to have gottenaway with killing four children.
I mean, people in prison saystuff, so you know whatever
they're gonna say, whatever toget attention but it doesn't
sound like green has anything tolose not really, not really at
all, and then he just died inprison.
But I think it's important toacknowledge that they're all
connected.
(17:27):
So so far you've gotChristopher Bush, who's got the
money, the power, the influence,dead, who was linked to Gregory
Green, who was alreadymolesting children before he met
Chris Bush, who was alsoalready molesting children.
So they're, you know, birds ofa feather.
So the two of them, feasiblythey're my top pick.
For who I think did this, Iwill say that I'm going to talk
(17:49):
about someone named VincentGunnels, and I have him kind of
asterisked because I don'tnecessarily think that Vincent
really should have been lookedat as closely as he was, I guess
.
So Vincent was molested byChristopher Bush and there are
beliefs that his mother paid himoff.
But like, did she pay him offto be silent about the murders?
Also, did he know something?
(18:11):
Wait, bush's mom paid offVincent's, yeah, because he was
molested by her son.
So, wait, the mom is on thistoo.
They pretty much, it seemedlike, were always out of the
country, always like doing theirown thing, leaving Chris home,
I think, and I'm trying to thinklike no, I wanted to try to be
devil's advocate and think like,ok, you're aware that your kid
(18:31):
does things you don't want toknow about, so you're trying to
just like do your best as aparent, but I feel like at that
point your best as a parent isto put him behind bars and let
him be there.
Hannah (18:39):
I mean you have to be a failure really at that point.
Being a failure really at thatpoint you live with your guilt.
Honestly, at that point Ibecause I just don't think
there's any way court thatyou're just born that way.
No, I don't think there has tobe another.
Courtney (18:51):
Something has to happen to you in order to to
kind of get that way.
So vincent's cellmate fromprison testified in 2009, after
gunnels was already released.
He was already released backout into the world.
His crimes I don't rememberexactly what they were, but they
were not as severe, obviously,as other people's that he had
(19:11):
spoken to him about beingmolested by a man who was a
child killer.
So this is Vincent's cellmateis saying Vincent told him that
he was molested by a childserial killer who we know to be
chris bush.
They found a dna match on ahair between him and christine
the victim.
When he was questioned about it, he refused to look at the
photograph of christine.
(19:32):
He was imprisoned again buteventually released in february
2011 with no charges related tothe occk against him.
So I'm thinking that vincentwas somebody who was weaker, who
was molested by chris, who wasaware of what happened, but I
don't think he.
He's a victim too.
I mean, he was being molested.
He's a victim too.
Hannah (19:51):
Do you know what he was in?
Courtney (19:51):
jail, for I probably do have it someplace.
I wouldn't be shocked if itcomes back later on, and this is
where things get really messyIn in the suspect list.
So I sorry.
Hannah (20:07):
One more thing.
Courtney (20:08):
So there was a hair, like I'm just processing, there
was a hair so that was in 2009is when they were able to link a
hair between him and christinenot necessarily that it was
vincent's hair on christine ahair that proved a link between
them.
And you're to see that a lotwhere these people are related
because, like you and I are inour car, we were in your car
(20:29):
this morning.
Hannah (20:30):
Yeah.
Courtney (20:30):
I'm going to get tea, right?
Rob has been in your car before, right?
I could end up committing acrime with Rob's hair on me, but
Rob wasn't part of it.
You know what I'm saying.
Hannah (20:39):
But, but could it also be like if, since Vincent was
also like, he was a victim, avictim, right.
Couldn't that be like they werejust brought to the same spot?
Courtney (20:51):
Could have been.
There's a lot.
There's a lot that's there, andI think the fact that when they
, when they asked him aboutChristine and they showed the
photograph and he refused tolook at it, it made me wonder
myself if there was some childpornography done between male
victims and female victims andif he was like, I know what I
had to do to that girl and Idon't want to think about it
(21:12):
right doesn't mean you're guiltyit just means like you're
grossed out immediately.
Hannah (21:16):
That's what I thought.
I.
I thought the same exact thing.
That does not mean you'reguilty.
Courtney (21:19):
It just means, like you have a conscience, like I
remember what I had to do orwhat I went through, and I but
they're groomed, and you have toremember when all that happened
it was in the 70s, so it's avery different mental health
type of thing too.
I don't know how much wasbelieved about like ptsd, and if
you've been through somethingyou know what I mean, you know
what I just thought of.
Hannah (21:37):
This might be a little off track here, but do you
remember going to the mall?
And yeah, you would always likehey, you look great for one of
our child bottle.
Courtney (21:46):
Blah, blah I wonder if they were like sex trafficking.
Hannah (21:48):
I think about that a lot I mean, I know a couple times
like my mom was like no, no,you're not photographing my
child.
But I'm pretty sure there wasone point like I did get
photographed, like, granted, Idid have my clothes on, but it
was sketchy as all get out,because they come get you in the
middle of the mall and then yougo down like these weird alley
things to like an empty roomwell, and this is totally
unrelated, but I I've even seenlike people on tiktok again.
Courtney (22:11):
You know I'll caution you.
If you're seeing things ontiktok, check the references on.
That doesn't mean they're true,but people who are talking
about like hotels and likedisneyland that have like access
to rooms where there's childrenstaying and then they go into
these places where it's like adungeon and I.
I don't have firsthandknowledge, if that's correct.
Yeah, but it really doesn'tseem far-fetched to me for where
we're at with the world,unfortunately well, I appreciate
(22:33):
that my mom was like a littlemore.
Hannah (22:34):
Uh, I'm not overbearing, that's not the word I'm looking
for, but just like protectivelike, yeah, fuck you, you're not
.
I don't know who you are.
You are not photographing mychild.
Courtney (22:42):
It's also very beautiful it's very weird, but I
feel like I mean, we talkedabout a lot with, like, danny
croto case.
Yeah, like you think thatthere's this person who's taking
an interest in your child andthey're there to help and maybe
you, you know, you're a singleparent or whatever, you don't
have the time to do the thing,or you're just like, wow, this
person's being really nice.
I feel like I'm always thinkingabout especially working with
kids like why is that personright being nice, right, right
(23:04):
yeah, which, by the way, I thinkhis death date is coming.
It is, isn't it, april I, Ithought it was april.
We have to go see.
We have to go visit him.
Yes, I'm gonna look him up whileyou keep talking so now we're
going to talk about someonenamed richard lawson, I will say
, also deceased at age 66,ironically only six years into
his life sentence for killing acabbie.
(23:24):
He, you know, unfortunatelyonly died six years into that
sentence.
So he made a formal statementto the police that lamborghini
another person that we'll talkabout, um showed him
pornographic images of a boy whoresembled tim and that he could
identify a man in the photowith him.
But he would not give it up,give up that name, unless he was
going to get immunity.
(23:44):
So he kept it as a chip, andwhat I really want to highlight
here is the first time I waslike yes, please.
They did not offer him any kindof deal.
They were like that's great,you keep that name to yourself,
we're not giving you immunity.
Yeah, yeah, 20 years ago maybeeven longer at this point I have
to check the date on the bookbut he had called Barry King,
timothy's father, from prison torequest that he come and talk
(24:04):
to him, and Barry never went,but he did alert the police that
this person made contact withhim.
In 2012, this man contactedBarry again, but this time by
letter, and so he did not go,but he sent his attorney out to
visit him in jail and hereported that he and a man named
Bobby Moore used to quoteunquote get boys for H Lee Bush,
(24:26):
who was Christopher's father.
So yeah, november of 2009,.
Barry disclosed that a mannamed Tim Nummer, who knew his
son, reported that in 1992 hehad sold clothes to some cops at
a retail store and when heasked casually about timmy's
case, they said, oh, that's beensolved.
(24:47):
He was killed by the son ofsome auto exec who was turned in
by his attorney.
Tim number offered later on togo public with this statement
and when he did, the reporter,state prosecutor and state
police all failed to follow upon his statement.
So there's your policeinvolvement again, and while I
do feel like, like RichardLawson, played a small role, he
again is showing a connectionbetween Lamborghini and the Bush
(25:12):
family and he's reaching outspecifically to one of the
victim's families, so he'sconnecting himself back in too.
Hannah (25:21):
So did those cops just kind of talk out of place Like,
oh yeah, we already know who didit?
Courtney (25:26):
And even such I mean even if that is the case the
right thing to do would havebeen to follow up on it.
Plus, the case is clearly notsolved.
I mean the amount of mediacoverage this thing has gotten.
I'm sure it was like newspaperarticle after newspaper article
after newspaper article.
Hannah (25:41):
I'm sure it was plastered everywhere.
I I kind of want the bushes forthis.
Courtney (25:43):
This just it feels it feels right yeah, and I feel
like and I kind of told myselfafter I had read like probably
halfway through the book I waslike you know what, if the
bushes aren't the person whosehand actually did the crime, I
still feel like they should havegotten accessory they know more
than they they knew how to getwhat they wanted, in my opinion,
and play different peopleagainst to use them for money so
(26:06):
the podcast you were listeningto like, did they have a
particular suspect that they orsuspects that they liked?
for the crime?
You know, not really.
And and so what I did noticethe common uh denominator
between podcasts for the oaklandcounty child killer was that
they were all pretty much late.
They were all laid outdifferently.
I think this one included islaid out very differently, um,
(26:27):
but they were also none of themused the source that I did,
which I liked, um, yeah, butthey also all kind of were about
like an hour and a half or twohours in length, and I feel like
they all kind of left with thatsame like what.
Like how did this guy or thisperson get away with this?
Um, and I think what it comesdown to is like did I mean, if
people can see it, did youreally get away with it?
(26:49):
Like, let's say, chris bush didit?
Did he really get away with it?
Because he kind of got hisanyways, I mean, I feel bad that
the families didn't get theirtheir closure.
Hannah (26:59):
But I do know like obviously his came in the end
anyways, at least the one thingthat the families did get was
the bodies were covered.
Courtney (27:06):
It's not like they're just wondering and they were
cared for, I think, the factthat the bodies were not, like,
mutilated other than than poorjill, yeah, yeah yeah, so I know
I've I've made promise thatwe're going to talk about
somebody named ted lambergine,um, but here he is.
So at the time of the book hewas 75 and was serving three
life sentences for unrelatedcrimes in michigan.
(27:27):
So just, a great great citizenright there some some things
about mr ted that I thought wereimportant, and there were a lot
of things.
Um, he refused to take apolygraph in the Oakland County
child killer case, optinginstead for a life sentence,
which seems kind of sus to me.
Hannah (27:43):
It does seem sus, but I also don't even like lie
detectors.
Courtney (27:45):
I don't really work all the time I don't either, but
the fact that you would flatout refuse it makes me a little
like, hmm, I mean, would you doone?
I mean, would you do one?
I mean, if I was going to be,if I was offered a different
deal for taking one or a lifesentence for something I didn't
do?
Yeah, probably, probably giveit a shot.
He laid low until RichardLawson testified about his
(28:06):
involvement in the Cass Corridorpedophile ring and also as the
Oakland County child killer.
In 2005, he was taken intocustody for the involvement in
the Cass Corridor situation, sohe did go down for that.
In 2007, he confessed to usingmoney, drugs and food to lure
(28:26):
young boys into being abductedinto homes, hotel rooms and a
bicycle shop where they weresexually assaulted and used to
make pornographic pictures whichwere sold.
Gross Gross.
Prior to that sentencingencing,he failed a polygraph test, so
he did end up taking one.
He was offered a 15-year stayin a more cushy federal prison
if he confessed to hisinvolvement, but he turned the
(28:47):
deal down saying only I havebeen forgiven.
What the fuck does that mean?
So let's, let's, before we getinto the pedophile ring, let's,
let's, list out ted Lambergine'scrimes for everyone shall we?
Hannah (28:58):
I'm sorry, like what the fuck does that mean?
Courtney (29:00):
I have no idea.
He said a lot of things thatwere very like.
I'm okay.
Hannah (29:04):
And we're like what the fuck does that even mean?
Right?
Courtney (29:07):
So his total crimes.
He had a life sentence for 14convictions of criminal sexual
conduct, 12 of which stemmedfrom summer 1976, only months
before the first OCCK murdersbegan.
Hannah (29:19):
Gross.
Courtney (29:20):
Two additional criminal sexual conduct charges
with a person under 13,.
The last offense date listed as12-31-1980, which is three
years after the last knownmurder on a holiday during the
winter.
Hannah (29:34):
That's New Year's Eve Okay eve, okay, but court.
So I thought we wanted thebushes for this, but they're all
connected.
So you think just lamborghini'sjust part of this sex ring?
Yes, so they're all fuckingguilty and they all deserve to
go to hell.
Courtney (29:49):
So what I think is really interesting is there's
there's a guy named geraldrichards, so let's, let's talk
about gerald richards I don'tknow if I can add another person
.
Hannah (29:59):
Court in my brain I'm aware.
Courtney (30:00):
I'm aware it's really hard.
So he is a mid-30s gym teacherfor saint joseph's catholic
elementary oh no, I have no, thecatholics don't know no he
offered to provide boys camp inexchange for helping with his
election pamphlets.
So he brought the children to asmall local airport, flew them
to north fox island, a three-daytrip that involved being
(30:20):
molested by gerald richards andfrank sheldon yeah, um, first of
all, gym teacher like yeah, butlike you're gonna pay for all
these boys yeah yeah.
So this guy is a real creep.
I mean he's like a certifiedcreep.
I even put that in my notes.
Like my notes say this guy is areal creep.
I mean he's like a certifiedcreep.
I even put that in my notes.
Like my notes say this guy is areal creep.
Um, he had been reported tostare at the school boys, pat
(30:41):
their butts and even measuretheir penises for athletic
purposes.
Okay, so there's, there weresigns.
There were signs that this manshould not have been near
children but he had great accessto them, right, because he was
a was a teacher.
Hannah (30:53):
Yeah, in a Catholic school, but like because, oh, if
you're in a Catholic school youmust be a person of God.
That is not a person of God.
Courtney (30:59):
No this person was not .
Hannah (31:00):
So how did he get away with all that?
But like, how did he get awaywith that?
Courtney (31:11):
And we're not even done.
Courtney, my brain hurts.
I know I'm a break.
I was up last night.
I need everyone on theWanderers to know.
Sidebar here for a minute.
I have been researching thiscase since it's been a while.
I'm like January.
Hannah (31:25):
It's been a while.
It's actually one of myfavorite songs.
Courtney (31:27):
I was about to start singing it and then I just had a
total brain fart.
But yeah, since, like january,and this has kept me up so many
nights where I'm like last nightalone I'm googling, I'm
googling, I'm googling, I'mlooking, I'm searching, there's
a lot, there's a lot here.
So at least two occurrences areknown in the summer of 1976,
where he and frank molestedchildren, either at a hotel or
(31:48):
at frank sheldon's home.
Okay, so this camp had twodirectors.
They were Frank and Gerald.
Ok, a 15 year old boy whoassisted with recruitment, named
Michael, was also molested andcould report many instances at
varying locations, some eveninvolving other minors.
So what was the purpose of thecamp?
(32:09):
The camp was to createphotographs and videos of child
pornography to dispense to thosewho quote unquote donated to
their cause.
So the client list equals theirsponsor list, which is
important because the sponsorswere paying for this camp,
because they were the clients.
That's disgusting.
When richards was brought infor questioning, he was a total
(32:30):
wreck on the verge of abreakdown.
Frank, meanwhile, flew away ona private jet, never to be seen
or heard from again.
Where'd the private jet comefrom?
The bushes, probably theairport.
That's exactly what I wasthinking so.
Somehow, despite knowing he wasin the netherlands, frank, he
escaped to the netherlands.
Nobody tried to extradite him.
They were never trying to doanything, even with fbi
(32:53):
involvement, which is importantso wait, I'm sorry, isn Isn't
the Netherlands like?
Hannah (32:56):
isn't Amsterdam part of that?
There's the red light district,I think so, where there's a lot
of trafficking.
Courtney (33:01):
Yep.
So some sources noted that hedied in the late 90s and some
speculate that he just took onanother identity and continued
to live on, which I'mhypothesizing was probably
related to other crimes.
Again, I'm assuming some shitblew up in his face again and he
moved on.
Yep, so march 1976, richardgives a testimony to the crimes
for a deal with leniency.
(33:23):
No, the timing of this one asit relates to mark fuck, mark
right.
When police received a warrantto search frank's ann arbor home
, it was vacant and the filmthat Richards testified was no
longer in the filing cabinets.
They were mostly just empty andsitting there.
So they finally get into thisguy's house because they had to
(33:43):
get a search warrant, eventhough he left and he went to
the Netherlands.
They get in there and, surprise, surprise, this man literally
flew away with all of the porn.
I'm assuming he just took it toanother country and continued,
under a new name, to give it tothe same clients, right?
Hannah (33:57):
that's kind of what I would assume well, it's not like
he's taking a usb drive likeright.
Courtney (34:00):
He's taking literally rolls and suitcases of film.
So this leads to multiple knownchild sex offenders being
investigated.
One, referred to as lindsey,was investigated and he stated
that he didn't know frank, butthe pornography found in the
home and receipts of donationspainted a clear picture of his
involvement.
Those records were destroyed bypolice instead of entered as
(34:21):
evidence, because they destroyedit thinking that they were
protecting the children.
Quote unquote okay, my mouth islike don't get me wrong as a
person who works with children,I totally understand that your
first instinct is I'm gonna, Igoing to destroy this, because I
don't want anybody to ever seethis again, and I think that
after they found them, theyshould have destroyed that.
However, with it having a linkdirectly to somebody, why would
(34:47):
you have destroyed it and notjust locked it up someplace?
Hannah (34:49):
Right and I get what you're saying, or did somebody?
Destroy it because they wereafraid someone else in the
police department was going tosell it again I, I get that
those are all great reasons, butlike, if you're going to find
that, then you know what otherchildren are affected by this
and you can help them.
So it's like, yes, you don'twant to see this evil, but like,
unless you see the evil, youcan't help.
Yeah, yeah.
Courtney (35:10):
So now you're probably thinking where did gerald
richards up the psych ward toawait his trial?
He confessed to secretownership of a medical clinic
natural medicine, so he wasn't adoctor in a place called Port
Huron, which later came up whena young girl testified to the
FBI that she watched her fatherand others that she called a
rich man rape and kill a fewpeople in a doctor's office
(35:32):
which could have been thisnatural medical office, and she
witnessed a police officer beingpresent during those rapes.
Eventually he pled guilty andwas sentenced between uh to two
to twenty years in prison.
He served 10 and was backliving in michigan by the late
1980s I mean court.
Hannah (35:49):
It kind of makes sense why this hasn't been solved yet
there's the police involvementthat, and there's so many people
involved.
This isn't just one killer,it's not.
Courtney (35:57):
There's so many people involved in this and then I do
think it's important to notethat june 10th of 1976 the
tennessee bureau of criminalidentification outlined a link
between boys farm, which isanother camp similar, and
several major sponsors that wereresiding in the detroit area.
So conveniently the names wereomitted from the official logs,
but somebody in a differentstate did identify that there
(36:19):
were people who were doing thesethings this isn't like.
Hannah (36:27):
This isn't like a, like a bundy.
I know I'm bringing him upagain, but like that was a
one-man deal.
Courtney (36:31):
Yeah you, this is messy and I think that it's also
important to talk about.
There was a doctor, Dr BruceDanto.
So Christine's body was foundon.
Bruce Lane was the name of thestreet that it was found on and
people believe that the killerwas trying to use the name Bruce
Lane to connect to Bruce Danto,the psychiatrist.
(36:52):
They believed he was trying touse it as some kind of way to
gain clout or to like to make itlook like the doctor was being
incriminated.
So danto was explicitly knownfor doing studies about violence
and he was an area psychiatristso he was well known.
So it almost looked likesomebody was trying to be like
look at these violent thingshappening and they're on bruce
lane.
So another way that they werekind of like mind fucking with
people yeah, it's not kind of astretch, though like even if
(37:13):
that's what they're on BruceLane.
Hannah (37:14):
So another way that they were kind of like mind fucking
with people.
Courtney (37:15):
Yeah, it's not kind of a stretch, though, like even if
that's what they're doing, Imean that's kind of how I felt,
which is why I kind of likethrew it at the end, because I
was like I mean it's worthnoting.
Yeah, a mysterious packagearrived at the doctor's home
with a note from allegedly theOakland County child killer's
roommate.
The letter was typed andclaimed to explain why the
killer attacks children and thathe is a vietnam vet.
And they signed it just fromalan.
They bugged danto's phone andwhen alan called requesting a
(37:39):
meeting to grant his immunity,they sent danto with an
undercover cop.
Someone approached the cop atthis gay bar that they were
going to because alan suggestedthe place and he shut him down
so that the cop is undercover.
He gets hit on by a gay man.
They speculate that alan gotaway because the cop couldn't
put on a convincing act and letthe man just hit on him at the
gay bar because they.
(37:59):
So alan quote, unquote nevershowed up.
But I believe that it was theguy who approached the cop
trying to hit on him, and sothere's a lot of speculation
about alan where it's like, washe real?
Was it somebody who was just ahoax?
Because obviously that happenswhere people write in and they
try to like get attention and doall these things?
Yeah, and I don't really know.
I mean, I think that from whatI understand, there was no
(38:23):
roommate of any of the suspectsthat I am aware of and wasn't
really super talked about.
Probably they would have madethat connection pretty easily,
and what I will say is so afterI read the book I was kind of
like okay, let me look and seewhat's like recent in the news.
Sometimes things come up yearslater and obviously those are
worth noting which they have oncertain cases.
Hannah (38:41):
we've done Right, so in 2013,.
Courtney (38:44):
A new suspect enters the chat.
His name is archibald,otherwise known as arch sloan
sounds rich yeah, he does,archibald.
I love that name, but neatarchibald gossip girl.
Hannah (38:57):
Xoxo, gossip girl.
You know, you love me.
Oh, that was really good, Ishould do gossip by the way
wanders like we do, like gossipgirls, we like re-watch it.
Courtney (39:07):
We're weird it's a comfort.
It is a comfort show when we'reall done watching serial killer
movies.
So Archibald Sloan wasincarcerated since 1983 for sex
crimes against boys.
Of course, similar to ChrisBush and Gregory Green, he had a
lengthy list of crimes,beginning with indecent exposure
at around 19 and leading torape and sexual assault, you
know so on in his 20s.
(39:28):
Assault, you know so, on in his20s.
So he escalated pretty quickly.
He did some time on.
His first sex charges was outin Detroit in 1975.
He was working at servicestations, so gas stations, and
he was living not far from thespot where Mark Stebbins was
dropped in Southfield.
At the time of the OaklandCounty child killer murder
investigation he was given apolygraph and allegedly passed
given by the same person who didChris Bush and Gregory Green
(39:52):
their polygraphs, and they wereboth found to be faulty.
So I'm like if both of thosepolygraphs were found to be
faulty and the same guy did thisguy's, you know okay.
So despite this, they searchedhis car even though he had
failed the polygraph.
So, like now you're talkingabout, they're just doing things
kind of recklessly.
So despite it, they searchedhis car and combed for evidence
(40:13):
a vehicle that did not match thevehicle description related to
the crimes.
By the way, not at all thehairs that were found.
They were not submitted until2013.
So to determine that they'rewhat?
Yeah, yeah, they weren'tsubmitted.
Don't ask why Surprised theystill fucking had them.
Probably, yeah, surprised theystill fucking had them probably
yeah.
Hannah (40:31):
Who even knows if they're the same ones or if?
Courtney (40:32):
they pulled.
Yeah, exactly at this pointthey were determined that
mitochondrial matches to thehair found on both mark and
tim's body.
So this hair that was a matchdid not belong to sloan or to
vincent gunnels.
It must have been to someoneelse who had been in the car
nearby to them, which I know Italked about when we talked
about vin Gunnels too.
So it was determined that thissuspect is linked to the
(40:53):
murderer and might even know whoit is, but that he is likely
not the killer.
Links from him to Lamborghiniand Lawson are also assumed
based on his child sex crimes.
It was likely he was connectedto Chris Bush also.
So you're talking about allthese people I'm trying to
figure out.
So earlier on we also talkedabout and this is kind of like a
(41:15):
just keep this in the back ofyour head so we talked about the
boy named Sebastian and how hehad talked to one police officer
who you know ended up killed.
Well, there's another policemanwho was related to that as well
, who was found dead of asuicide Of course, in a church
parking lot in his car.
A nun and a priest reportedseeing two people in the
darkness in a blue car hoursbefore he was found.
Two guns found in the car werea police issued weapon to him,
(41:39):
so his own and a 44 caliber thatwas registered to his partner
and found on the passenger sidefloor.
There was no gunshot residuetest in the final police report.
The date of death was November14th 1978.
Two gunshot wounds to the chest, two different guns, two people
observed in the car, no residueon his own hands.
Remember November 22nd 1978,chris Bush was found shot to
(42:04):
death with a rifle shot to theforehead, completely tucked into
bed and ruled a suicide, and noresidue on his own hands.
The medical examiner estimatedfour days before was the date
that he died.
So if he was found on november22nd and four days before was
the 18th, that means thatofficer flynn and chris bush
were killed within four days ofeach other and both ruled a
(42:25):
suicide with no gunshot residueon either of their hands
bullshit.
So you're talking.
I just put that in there as away to paint like there's
clearly some corruption going on, oh, absolutely.
And Officer Flynn was not asuspect, so he was just somebody
who must have known too much.
And as it relates back toSebastian talking to him, it
makes sense he knew too much andso they killed him off.
And it seems to be a patternthat whenever somebody knows too
(42:47):
much they kill them off, whichis why I think none of the other
books were ever finished it.
Hannah (42:52):
Just.
It boggles my mind that, as aperson with experience right
dealing with dead bodies, youcan put suicide on these, these
death certificates.
And how did they allow that?
Courtney (43:03):
that's the other part, like there had to have been a
whole corrupt system in place todo that, because otherwise I'm
just not sure, like if we wereworking together it's 101 court,
like there's no gun charge.
Hannah (43:16):
We know, and we haven't taken any classes on forensics,
it's just from like basicknowledge.
Courtney (43:23):
That's so upsetting it's upsetting, it's sad, it's
very sad and it's such like anunjust case that I feel like
that's why I'm having a hardtime letting it go myself, where
I'm like I kept digging anddigging and digging.
What I did appreciate that waskind of at the end of the book,
again in my reflection section.
I like that you do that.
The author talks about how DrNicholas Groth from the
(43:44):
Massachusetts Treatment Centerfor Sexually Dangerous Persons
completed a profile for thekiller which I thought was
interesting.
Center for Sexually DangerousPersons completed a profile for
the killer, which I thought wasinteresting.
So I'm going to read throughthe profile and then I'm going
to tell you what the authorstake on it and I'm going to see
if you agree and that's howwe're going to close out our
episode and we'll see how itgoes.
Hannah (44:01):
So it's a big opening where, at the end, isn't it?
Courtney (44:03):
It's just yeah it's a big, big, big, vast black hole.
Yeah, I've got nine things thatdr groth was able to determine
in his profile of the killer.
Okay.
So the first one was the killerwas intelligent but with no
formal education, which I agreewith.
I think that makes sense.
The second was the killer wasnot of a moneyed background or
(44:25):
esteemed social standing okay.
The third was the killer wasnot in a position of authority
in the workplace the power piece.
Four the killer had a previousrecord of criminal activity for
violence just beneath the degreeof violence now being
perpetrated by him, soinsinuating that he kind of got
away.
Whoever it was, they kind ofgot away.
Five the sex of the child wasless relevant to the killer than
(44:47):
the age of the child, which Idefinitely agree with as well.
Six the cleansing of the bodieswas in service to purification
which I agree.
I would agree with that seven,while mark had been struck on
the head, no violence other thansexual was inflicted on his
body, suggesting that it was areaction and not intended.
The same can be concluded aboutjill and the shotgun blast,
(45:08):
which I 100 agree with.
Eight, the positioning of markand christine was interpreted as
ritualistic because they had,like, a folded, relaxed position
about them.
And then nine, the killer'sfair treatment of the children
suggested a lifelong longing foraffection and or validation
from others.
Absolutely, I 100 agree with andwhat I enjoyed was the way that
(45:28):
the author broke it down, is helined up all of the profile
with kind of his own likethoughts on everything.
So let me, kenzie, I see thatyou really want to be included
here hannah's is all abouthannah's adorable little dog
wants to be directly she likesto think she's part of the
(45:49):
episode.
She likes to think she's part ofthe episode.
He, he kind of lays it all outand he says each one where he's
like the killer was intelligentbut with no formal education.
Green.
Hannah (45:58):
The killer was not of a moneyed background or esteemed
social standing gregory green sothat's why I was confused,
because I thought, okay, so isit kind of like green was the
brains behind it and bush justhad the money for it and the
prestige.
Courtney (46:13):
So the author drew the connection to Gregory Green at
each of the points andhighlighted that the reason
Green may not have ever beencharged was due to the fact that
Bush was involved in it and hismoney and power was what was
keeping them from being charged.
Because if you think about it,if they had ever tried to
formally charge Gregory Green,he would have rolled on Bush in
an instant.
And I'm wondering.
(46:34):
My theory with no evidenceWanderers, this is just me
speculating after what I read.
My theory is that Chris Bushwas in on it because of his
father.
It was a bigger situation andChris was being set up by his
father to take the fall if heneeded to.
I think Chris was no longerwanting to be a part of it.
His father took him out.
His father had the money to beable to take out all the other
people too, without actuallygetting his hands dirty.
(46:56):
And I'm wondering if gregorygreen didn't just find himself
in a place where he was seekingthat validation.
He was seeking that prestigeand he had that.
He was so opposite of chris,but they had the same love of
young children all right.
Hannah (47:11):
So the first two we say are green.
Can we go through them again?
What's?
Courtney (47:15):
the third one, again, the killer was not in a position
of authority in the workplace.
Okay, so I didn't even know ifI didn't even know if he had a
job.
The last the only thing I knewabout his employment status was
that he had been in undercovernarcotics so could we also say
that for bush?
Hannah (47:27):
because if the dad is the one that owned the company,
maybe he's like oh, you're justa child.
Courtney (47:32):
You have, yeah, one of those like parents that are
just like you're not ready tohold yes, and I think the reason
why he was leaning towardsgreen is because chris did go to
like a very fancy, likeoverseas boarding school, like
he got a really high end, um,really high end education.
Next one the killer had aprevious record of criminal
activity for violence justbeneath the degree of violence
(47:52):
now being perpetrated by him.
So I think that's where we werekind of branching off into
Green, because even though Chrishad that, I mean and violence
is sexual assault I'm not sayingit isn't but Green had that
strangled a person right up tothe point where they were almost
dead.
So I see where the connectionconnection was clearer for green
there um, and then he calledems but then he escalated just
(48:13):
slightly to the point where hedidn't call ems, yeah, yeah.
So the next one is the sex ofthe child was less relevant to
the killer than the age of thechild, which could have been for
any of them, because obviouslyso, thinking about green, he had
that like hundreds of childrencould have been boys and could
have been girls.
Hannah (48:28):
I think there's something to be said for those
that age of like puberty and notpuberty and depending on
development.
Yeah, because if we think aboutDr Bill Bass, which we talked
about in the forensic book aboutthe death's acre in the body
farms, you know something Ididn't know.
Is that, like when you look ata child, a male and female
skeleton are the same?
(48:48):
Right, it's not until pubertywhere women actually develop
hips and everything else.
Courtney (48:53):
Yeah, so that could have come into play as well so a
certain degree it almostdepending on what kind of sexual
assault the person was goingafter.
Right, the physical bodyprobably didn't make that much
difference like, also like hair.
Hannah (49:07):
You know, like girls, little girls, don't have hair
yet, right like we don't developthat till puberty too.
So there's a lot of things thatlook similar.
There's a lot.
Courtney (49:15):
Not not to get gross, I just you know it's science and
I think a lot of the way thatwe discuss it and I think a lot
of the way that people wholisten to us know that we
discuss it is based on science.
It's not it's not based onbeing creepy right um, though
sometimes that line feels prettyblurred.
Hannah (49:28):
We all be respectful because like yeah of course
these kids like we.
Just, they went throughsomething awful and so did their
families.
Courtney (49:34):
I mean, I can't imagine what kind of like
ownership, especially barry king, who was just, he's easy to
talk about because he was soinvolved in it.
Clearly this is a person who, Imean he was an attorney, he was
you know what.
I mean he was prominent too andhe was connected to the law.
And obviously it makes mewonder was his child picked,
even though he was an outlier,because he was connected to the
law?
And obviously it makes mewonder was his child picked,
even though he was an outlier,because he was connected to the
law?
Hannah (49:54):
I can't imagine like going to bed and waking up every
day, where you're just thinkingabout your child.
Are they gonna find them today?
Are they gonna find them today?
And?
Courtney (50:00):
I know that we certainly were not just
extending that, I guess,heartfelt concern to these
families, but a lot of thefamilies we've talked about,
yeah, the same could be sameabout maura murray.
The same thing could be saidabout lynn burdick.
Lynn burdick, it always comesback to lynn burdick for me.
Hannah (50:17):
Our roman empires, our roman empires so six was the
cleansing of the bodies was inservice to purification which I
agree, then like childlikeexactly, and like porcelain doll
is what I keep going back toyeah and then seven is 100%
green in my head.
Courtney (50:33):
When Mark had been struck on the head, no violence
other than sexual was inflictedon his body, suggesting that it
was a reaction and not intended,exactly like the boy who got
him caught in California.
Hannah (50:42):
Yeah.
Courtney (50:43):
The positioning of Mark and Christine was
ritualistic was number eight.
I feel like somebody who'smolested that many people
probably has a ritual.
Hannah (50:53):
So I'm sorry.
Was that the kids that werefound at the police station?
Courtney (50:56):
No, that was the ditch in the Mark was the state
police area and Christine wasthe side of a railroad.
Hannah (51:05):
That was the postal service person.
Courtney (51:08):
Okay, Correct, and Christine was gone the longest.
So that was the first and thelongest.
If you want to look at it, thatperson?
Okay, correct, and Christinewas gone the longest.
So that was the first and thelongest.
If you want to look at it thatway, okay.
And then nine the killer's fairtreatment of the children.
Suggested a lifelong affectionand or validation seeking oh,
100%, absolutely.
And I could see how that couldalso be Bush or Green, because
I'm sure that growing up in ahouse the way like Bush's family
sent him away to boardingschool and then he had these
(51:29):
issues and they kept leaving toEurope, I can see where that
abandonment.
Even though I can understandwhy a parent might want to be
like stay over there, stay inyour lane, I can see where that
could impact them too.
So I'm definitely reallyleaning towards there's a bigger
scheme here, the fact that itrelates all back into this child
sex trafficking ring.
Hannah (51:48):
It's not just one person .
It's not just one person.
Courtney (51:49):
And I think it's super hard to look at.
A final thing that I kind ofwant to link to Chris Bush, just
because I know I'm kind of onthat line where I'm like Bush
green, bush green.
In Mark's case, specifically,there is a link to Christopher
Bush.
So when Bush's body was found,there was a pencil drawing over
(52:11):
his bed.
So he was found in his bed,wrapped in his bedding, shot to
the forehead.
There was a drawing over hisbed in pencil that resembled
Mark wearing a hoodie.
Eyes closed, screaming out inpain was how the boy was
depicted in the picture.
And this was also kept out ofall the press and from the
victim's families.
So it was a piece of art, yeah,drawn onto the wall.
Only law enforcement officersinvolved knew that detail.
(52:33):
Nobody else was ever clued inon it and and a lot of people
speculated, was the sketchartwork completed by chris as a
memento or was it planted at thescene after his suicide as a
way to to like?
Hannah (52:45):
I'm sorry, could you use last name?
So it was.
It was bush that was found.
Yeah, christy, and they'rewondering if green is the one
that drew it they didn't say.
Courtney (52:54):
They're just wondering if somebody else, whoever, if
christopher bush was not asuicide, which I don't think, I
don't think he was eitherwhoever the killer was, whether
it was someone hired to kill orsomeone killing for their own
agenda.
There was question aboutwhether it was like did
christopher bush draw thatbecause he wanted to remember
mark?
Did christopher bush draw itbecause he was planning to kill
(53:15):
mark?
Or was it like I'm killing youand I'm putting that there so
they really link you to it andthey stop looking for me?
Hannah (53:21):
I'm guessing there's not a picture of?
Courtney (53:25):
the artwork.
The only person who knew aboutit was police officers.
So when you, when you summarizeit, christopher bush had
connections from him to franksheldon's island sex ring
associates linking him to lawsonand lamborghese, and he was
directly associated with gregorygreen and archibald sloan,
whose mitochondrial dna wasfound on the two victims bodies,
(53:46):
it's reasonable he was thecommon denominator in all these
killings, parrot with hispowerful and rich family.
And my conclusion says that ifI had to put one person in my
mind who I think was themastermind or the the common
denominator, it's chris bush.
I because green, wouldn't havehad the access to the other
things without bush, I think.
(54:07):
I think that's the first spotand unfortunately, I think
whoever else was in on it and Ido think there was a lot of
people in on it they knew takinghim out was going to be.
Maybe they thought he wouldroll.
Yeah, because he's out of thesuspects.
He's the only one who waskilled off.
The other ones died in prison.
Damn, maybe the other onesbanded together and were like we
got to make this guy go.
Hannah (54:28):
I do agree, though, we gotta make this guy go.
Courtney (54:32):
I I do agree, though it wasn't one person.
It wasn't, it couldn't havebeen.
Maybe all of the acts were oneperson, but they served the
purpose of stealing thosechildren and it's disgusting to
think about served multiplepeople sick yep fantasies,
multiple yep, and so that is, atthis current state in time, on
march 9th 2025 at 1.15 pm, theOakland County child killer case
(54:56):
.
According to Courtney, that wasamazing.
Hannah (54:59):
It was Thank you, for that was a lot Of course.
Courtney (55:02):
And I feel like I thought I was going to feel
better after, like, oh, it's allout, and I'm just like, nope, I
still it's going to be one ofthose cases that lingers in my
mind and when it comes up I'mjust like, nope, I still it's
gonna be one of those cases thatlingers in my mind and when it
comes up I'm gonna be like Ihave to, I have to look at this,
but if anybody else has otherresearch or theories, write in,
tell us all about it.
We would love to hear whatother people think about it too,
(55:23):
and I have one other tbr bookto do for the podcast, so if
people have suggestions ofthings they want, my individual
uh list is open, so I mean, Ihave plenty.
I could fill it in with text us, please, you too, cousin mark I
picked my old card.
Hannah (55:41):
Is that okay?
Courtney (55:42):
yeah, no, that's fine all right, here's gonna be a
card for us pick a god any god.
Hannah (55:53):
Four of clubs, are you sure?
Yes, are you sure?
I have to think of the spadeshape.
Courtney (56:00):
And then I know this could you dig a hole with it.
Yes or no?
No, so it's four clubs, so fourclubs.
Hannah (56:04):
Herbert r dixon on september 19th 1994, herber R
Dixon.
On September 1994 at 7.32 am,barnstable Police responded to
250 Vineyard Road in Cotuit Idon't think I've ever heard of
that, cotuit, c-o-t-u-i-t.
Cotuit and located the victimwith a single shotgun wound to
the back of the head.
(56:25):
Oh wow, not a shotgun again,that's uh execution style yeah.
The victim was the solecaretaker of the 60 acre estate
and would allow individuals fromthe area to hunt and fish on
the property when the ownerswere away.
Hmm, interesting.
Courtney (56:40):
If you have any info about this case, please call
1-855-MA-SOLVE I feel likeending on a card kind of sucks,
because it's like we read thisthing and we don't know anything
about it, because we go inblind.
We just pick it and then I justfeel like, damn, I guess we
could start, once we finishthese cards, going through and
researching the cases.
Yeah, absolutely, I've beenkind of teasing.
(57:02):
The idea of this was my first.
I don't.
Was this wicked wanderings?
No, it wasn't the firstunsolved.
No, we've had disappearances.
But have we ever had unsolvedmurders?
I know someone's gonna have tofact check us on this.
It was my first unsolved onethat I've done, aside from lynn,
which I have to just call it adifferent category, but I really
(57:23):
kind of enjoy it.
I have like a love haterelationship with unsolved cases
because, unsolved is likethere's ample stuff on it.
It kind of lives through theability to like, work your brain
into it.
But I feel like it's such a sadthing that then I want to go
down the rabbit hole and solveit, even though I know many
people before me have tried todo it.
Hannah (57:41):
Obviously I feel like I need to go through my books and
like think if there's anyunsolved murders, because of
course we have disappearances,right?
We?
Have marmory first right.
Courtney (57:53):
I don't know we're gonna have to come back to that
well we do have on our list thatwe want to come up with.
We want to create ourspreadsheet.
Yes, I feel like the wandersmight want to listen to us too.
I don't know why they wouldwant to do that, but I don't
know wonders if you love us, ifyou love us, let us know.
Not us, let us know.
Not just Cousin Mark, we lovehim, but we want more people to
love us.
Hannah (58:13):
We want more Cousin Marks.
Just don't talk aboutcannibalism.
Courtney (58:17):
I do have to say this is terrible, but I will say I
was out, and yesterday I was outat a convention kind of thing.
And so this man walks up to meand he's he's a vendor, I should
say, not just a random man andhe walks with me and he has a
pair of like cooking scissorsand he cuts a piece of beef
jerky off and hands it to me.
And I had this moment where Icouldn't get cannibalism out of
(58:40):
my head and I'm like watching mydad eat this piece of jerky and
I just want to like reach intohis mouth like a dog and pull it
back out, because all I canthink about is I love that song
yeah.
Hannah (58:54):
It's because of Mark's fault, we'll blame him.
Yeah, so now I think about thatconstantly.
Courtney (58:59):
So on that note, wanderers, don't think about
cannibalism, don't eat beefjerky from random people and
always keep on wandering.
Hannah (59:07):
Bye guys, bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme Hannah and co-hosted by me
Courtney.
Courtney (59:14):
And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (59:16):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
(59:37):
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
It feels like it's very early because of Daylight
Savings Time happening here, andalso I feel like every Daylight
Savings Time, I have this rantabout how Daylight Savings Time
is stupid because it literallydoesn't do anything.
Okay.
Hannah (00:23):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Join us as we delve into truecrime, paranormal encounters and
all things spooky.
Courtney (00:30):
Grab your flashlight and get ready to wander into the
darkness with us.
This is.
Wicked Wanderings hello hannah,hello corny.
(00:56):
We are back for another episodeof the oakland county child
killer so fucking time again.
If you haven't listened to ourlast episode from last week,
you'll definitely want to goback and listen to part one.
That's going to be the part allabout the different victims and
the evidence, kind of, beforewe jump into the very scrambled
list of suspects and how they'reall interwebbed.
(01:17):
I will also put another triggerwarning on this.
It does involve children andthe killing of children.
I'm keeping things very, very,very, very discreet when it
comes to things like sexualassault, but that is included in
here.
So if that is something that ischallenging for you, I would
recommend just pausing andwaiting for our next episode to
come out.
So, while there are manysuspects, I am probably the most
(01:38):
excited to talk aboutChristopher Bush.
So Christopher Bush is the sonof the cfo for general motors,
so immediately privileged yes,I'm thinking money, I'm thinking
access, I'm thinking power athis disposal.
His family had been rumored tohave even paid off families
after being molested by theirson in the past.
So oh god, like right off thebat, we're starting like I bet
(02:02):
it was that guy.
So yes, and he's gotconnections that are gonna lead
him all over the place.
You're starting like I bet itwas that guy, so, yes, and he's
got connections that are goingto lead him all over the place.
You're going to keep hearingchristopher bush, christopher
bush, christopher bush,everywhere.
Fun fact, he was given apolygraph and it was the only
one a prosecutor was present for, like pretty much ever at that
time, which is interesting yeahsomebody must have known that
(02:24):
there was something there.
Um and his own family paid andadministered a private polygraph
that was actually buried inevidence and it was specific to
just mark's death, which isimportant.
He failed it, but the worldwouldn't know that until 30
years later.
Again, I know if you'velistened to the first episode
you're like oh my god, corny,fast forward, this is scrambled,
this is all over the place,because it seems like there was
(02:44):
evidence of police corruptionand there was definitely
evidence of people hidingevidence.
Um, so you're gonna hear a lotof things like oh yep, but this
we didn't know about at the time.
So we did not know that hefailed that polygraph test until
30 years later.
So 20 years ago.
Hannah (02:57):
Also, is there a connection?
Because doesn't general motorslike supply, almost like every
police cruiser known a man?
Courtney (03:04):
and that's an an interesting one that I actually
didn't look into, but I'm surethat it was.
And even I know last episodeHannah and I, kind of at the end
, were like spitballing talkingabout all these different
theories that just she and I hadand we were thinking about if
someone had access to power,someone had access to money, and
then why would the policeprotect someone?
Hannah (03:30):
Well, if they're that powerful and they have that much
money, maybe money's liningsomebody's pocket.
Well, and also, when you talkedabout the, the girls and the
boys were obviously in differentplaces.
I mean, if you have money andpower, you obviously have real
estate and probably emptyfactory basements that may not
be being used right concrete.
Courtney (03:41):
Yeah, so he was already being pursued for
molestation charges from hisfamily home, along along with
another associate named GregoryGreen, who we'll get into later,
and Gregory had told the policethat Christopher Gregory Green
because he's also on the suspectlist for the obvious reason
that we just talked about.
After all of that goes downlike the two of them are trying
(04:12):
to turn on each other.
Chris goes free, gregory getscharged and sentenced for life.
That's all you need to knowright now.
So, of course, money and powerChris is from money and power,
greg is from absolutely nothinghe got wait, he got charged and
put for life, not for thekilling for something else.
Hannah (04:27):
That we'll get into when we talk about.
Courtney (04:29):
Okay, so they were talking about molestation
charges for something else.
Okay, they do this a lot,apparently.
So march 4th 1977, chris wasbonded out for the charges.
12 days later, timothy king wasabducted.
Six days later his body wasfound.
So okay, yeah he gets out 12days later goes by, timothy is
abducted six days later, hisbody is found so greg is not out
(04:51):
.
So green could not have donetimothy, because green was in
prison yeah, but chris, chriscould have so.
Later, green's cellmate tellseveryone in prison that he
claimed to have gotten away withkilling four children.
So how did green do that ifchris was the only one who was
out?
Three days into the time thattimothy was being held captive,
(05:12):
somebody reported seeing chriswith two minors at his lake
house his family lake house.
Uh, the tip was called in butthe detective was away.
So nobody was dispatched to thecottage and the message was
delivered to the detective muchtoo late, after timothy's body
was already found, because thedetective was on vacation um,
isn't there someone that'staking his calls when he's on
vacation?
Hannah (05:31):
you would think what you would think if you had open
cases like that.
You're like I understandeveryone needs a break.
I get that, but no one'scovering your damn case why not
apparently, not so literally?
Courtney (05:44):
the timothy has been missing for three days, then the
detective goes on vacationsomeone calls in a tip to say,
hey, this guy who we know hasbeen molesting little boys, who
was out for you know, shruggy,who knows why, was seen with
minors, which he's obviously notallowed to do, given the fact
that even if you weren't fullycharged, you're probably still
going to be some kind of sexualoffender and didn't get it.
(06:06):
So they dropped the ball onthat big time.
Yeah Well, fast forward alittle bit for Chris Major
douche canoe, but we will leadwith the fact that he was found
dead in his home.
Big shock here.
Everyone's becoming found dead.
At this point.
He had been shot through thehead with a 22.
Ok, this point.
He had been shot through thehead with a 22.
Okay, a long gun, for anyonewho's listening, a long gun, 22
(06:27):
caliber shotgun.
Was immediately ruled suicide,despite the fact that he was
completely enveloped in hisbedding in his head, shot
through the forehead, which ispretty challenging to do with a
long gun.
Yeah, no, you couldn't do that.
No blunts, no bloods, better,none.
How do you get shot anywherewithout bloods?
Better, and no gun residue wasfound on his hands.
(06:50):
Okay, also, four bullet casingswere found, but only one shot
had been fired.
Hannah (06:57):
Okay just to clarify the person that was quote-unquote
suicide yeah was green.
No, green was jail.
Courtney (07:04):
Yeah, this was the police officer flin, okay, so
sorry I'm following.
Hannah (07:09):
This is a lot of names.
Courtney (07:10):
This is christopher bush, who's okay.
His father was the cfo forgeneral, so and christopher's
very important in this becausehe links everything everywhere.
Two different reports out thereabout the gun's placement.
When found, both note that heshot himself, which is
interesting.
Hannah (07:25):
So the gun was left then , yeah, it was still there, but
there's no, okay, if you knowanything about guns and I'm not
anything about guns, but I knowthings about guns.
Courtney (07:34):
You cannot do that there I mean and and they did
get into the book like there areways that you could fire a
weapon right with the assistanceof other things, like putting
something around the trigger andpulling it or something if
you're gonna kill yourself court, why would you pick a long gun?
Unless it was the only thingyou had access to.
That's the only thing I couldthink of.
Right, if you don't have accessto anything, I mean I wouldn't
pick a gun anyways, but anywaysso that's another conversation.
(07:59):
Five cotton swabs were completed, five of his hands, but there
was no gunshot residue found,which tells me you didn't fire
the weapon you didn't.
So that's like forensics 101,you would think you would think
so.
After he was found dead, Iremember green gregory was
sentenced to life in prison.
Those killings stopped and thetask force that they dedicated
(08:23):
to the work was disbanded.
So they thought that it wasthem, but they didn't come out
and say that.
Because why would you disbandan entire task force that you
put up and it's not consideredsolved dude?
It's not considered solved dude.
Hannah (08:36):
The police really fucked up on this one, a hundred
percent so obviously beingbought or or threatened or
something, because that's justcorrect in 2008, so more
recently.
Courtney (08:46):
I mean 2008 was a while ago, but more recently
that's when I graduated highschool, wasn't that?
long ago, a victim ofchristopher's testified that he
had firsthand evidence thattimothy king was linked.
He alleged that he saw apicture of timothy that
christopher showed him when hewas being held.
He also said he was forced intosexual acts with someone who
looked like timothy and that hewas present when chris dropped
(09:09):
him off at ted lamborghini'shome.
This narrative report was notreleased to the press.
Both bush and green were deadby this time, and ted
lamborghini is a number, a nameyou'll want to remember because
he comes into play again lateron too.
So you're gonna start seeingall these people are connecting.
I need, like a map, a map tree,something.
I read it and I need a map.
So all of that is going on.
(09:29):
Now you've got, decades later,somebody saying, hey, I was a
victim who was molested by chrisbush and I was forced into
sexual acts with somebody wholooked like timothy.
But I obviously uh male malewhich does go along with the
male, and you're gonna find thatfrom basically after we're done
talking about the suspects,where two of them are female,
everything we talk about withchildren is gonna go right to
(09:51):
male everything, everything else, all of the molestation, all of
that goes right to so eitherthey chose girls because they
looked like males, or they weretrying to throw off the scent
Right, or, if it was a sex ring,they had to Clientele made it
want it?
Yeah, thank you.
That was trying to, but thosekids were not sexually assaulted
(10:13):
, so what did they want them for?
Just the pictures.
And the problem also becomesthat one of the girls was the
one who was held longest, whichis interesting.
Why was she gone for so long ifshe didn't serve the function
you needed for that long?
Hannah (10:27):
Also now I'm thinking did that detective go on
vacation because he was told to?
And make sure no one's coveringyour case.
Courtney (10:34):
Yeah, maybe he was involved.
Maybe he was right down thestreet.
Hannah (10:37):
My brain hurts, courtney , so some other, some other
things, can we?
Courtney (10:41):
solve this Like I want to solve this Some other things
.
Can we solve this like I wantto solve this?
Some other things that Ireflected on, and I know because
in my notes I put reflectionmeaning like.
After I read the book I waslike what, oh, I like that.
Um, the medical.
It's about the medical examinerwho examined chris when he was
found in his home shot to death.
Dr robert sillery, whocompleted the autopsy, was
actually investigated two yearsafter his report that he did for
(11:03):
chris for providing fraudulentautopsy results.
In a different case it wassuspected that he had taken
money for bribes and led to himultimately being suspended from
practicing.
So two years is not that longof a window.
So how do we not think that?
that's what happened to also,what is really interesting and I
didn't put this in my notes,but I'm remembering it, brain
(11:23):
power is that the way that thechain of evidence typically goes
is like if something is, ifsomething is used in a crime,
like if there was a crime inyour, your house and that box
was the murder weapon, theywould not let you be like I have
a special attachment to thatbox, I need to have access to it
and keep it at all times.
Yeah, right, sorry, chris's dadwas able to keep the murder
(11:47):
weapon.
He had custody of it the wholetime.
It never left the home.
And it just tells me that thepolice Sure, mr General Motors
Right, of course you could keepit.
The police who reported to thathouse knew him very well,
because why else would you havebeen like, oh yeah, that's fine.
I think that, and anothertheory that I have is that
potentially the father was theone who was involved in all that
(12:07):
and he was making his son bethe scapegoat, and then he
killed his son off when hestarted to catch on.
Hannah (12:12):
So this might not be a universal opinion, and but it is
always something I think about.
Like, when we talk about peoplethat molest and hurt children,
it doesn't just come out of theblue.
No, there has to be a natureand nurture component to it,
right?
Courtney (12:27):
and I know you talked about this because of mark,
people were assaulted in theirpast right.
So of course it would makesense if his father molested him
right if the father is involved, or just, in my opinion, like
if the father was giving himmoney to fund his lifestyle, to
be like, hey, I'm doing thesethings and I need you to be the
person who's in charge of thembecause I'm too prominent.
Hannah (12:46):
If you're going to do this, then you need to do it.
Courtney (12:48):
high end style Right because there's just no way that
all of that is related.
Barry, who remember was thevictim, tim's father, he really
believed that Green was in jailat the time of his like he was
in jail at the time of his son'smurder and at the end, when I
was actually researching, it wasdetermined by the Michigan
State Police that that couldhave been incorrect.
He was determined that he couldhave been out on bond at the
(13:09):
time that Timothy was killed,even though their own record
said that it wasn't.
So really, and this is where Iwant to get into talking about
Green, because then I was like,okay, we got to go back.
At first I was like OK, green'san accessory, he doesn't really
need to be included.
I will say again, major DoucheCanoe died in prison in 1995,
allegedly of a heart attack whenhe was 47.
So some background informationon Mr Gregory Green.
(13:31):
He was described as violent, aloose cannon, hostile,
unpredictable.
He was born into less fortunatecircumstances than Chris and
was bitter about the contrastthat the two received for
punishment for linked crimes,which I think is justified,
because I will say as much as Idon't want to have the back of a
man who molests children.
I do think that you know thefact that one of you has money
(13:52):
and one of you doesn't doesn'tmean that there should be a
difference.
Yeah, no I totally agree withthat.
So when he was arrested withBush, he had already been on
probation for charges related tosexual assault of children in
California.
So he had been granted asuspended sentence and allowed
to leave the state to completehis probation.
So before he even knew Chris,he was already molesting
children In California.
(14:13):
He admitted to molesting andassaulting hundreds of children
aged 6 to 14.
That's why I said major doucheto you.
Hundreds?
Yeah, that was an estimate, I'msorry, what?
So he was working with apedophile friend who ran a
children's baseball league who,in exchange for coaching, he
would bring him children tomolest.
Hannah (14:30):
Stop Court.
Yeah, yep, I literally want tovomit.
I'm not kidding, it's a lot,it's a lot.
Courtney (14:36):
I'm trying to keep it as discreet as possible for
everybody so you can learn justthe facts.
These poor babies learn justthe the facts babies.
One boy who had becomeuncooperative good for him
during his molestation good forhim was strangled until he
couldn't breathe.
The boy did survive, but thismethod links directly to the
methods of the oakland countychild killer and I do think that
(14:56):
it's also important tohighlight here and this I
realized after the fact thischild who was strangled but
survived, he called 911 and gothim help.
So like there's a compassionpiece here which makes me think
about could Green have been theone who killed those other kids?
Because of the compassion pieceof like one he was
(15:18):
underprivileged himself.
Okay, so he's trying to helpthese children, he was caring
for the children, which makes methink, okay, it's kind of like
how he felt badly about helpthese children, he was caring
for the children, which makes methink, okay, it's kind of like
how he felt badly about thechild that he strangled.
Um, so, interestingly, when hewas arrested he was found to be
in possession of a police issuedscanner and a radio.
He was confirmed later to havebeen a confidential narcotics
(15:39):
informant for the huntingtonbeach police department.
Another link to the police didyou need that green?
Hannah (15:44):
yeah, so, and that was out in california, but he was
still linked to a policedepartment in california another
thing I thought of if the childwas strangled and it didn't
work, maybe they're like wedon't want that to happen again
and that's why that girl wasshot in the head.
Okay, okay, yeah, like we can'tlet that happen again not again
(16:09):
.
Courtney (16:10):
So after confessing to those acts that he had
committed in california, he wascommitted to a psychiatric
hospital in california for oneyear only oh, is that how long
it takes to just cure people,like one year after his release
he moved to michigan and linkedup with christopher bush.
One year after his release, theoakland county child killer
(16:34):
murders began and there's nointernet like how the do you
find these people?
Hannah (16:40):
I don't want to know that comes in later too.
Courtney (16:43):
So november 15th 1976, that's a month before jill's
gonna go missing.
So you're looking at betweenthe first and the second victim.
A juvenile runaway report wascleared when it was determined
that the boy had spent six daysat green's house hidden in a
concealed attic room while heworked.
No charges were filed againstgreen court no so then we've got
(17:06):
how, later later on in life,green cellmate in prison reports
that he claimed to have gottenaway with killing four children.
I mean, people in prison saystuff, so you know whatever
they're gonna say, whatever toget attention but it doesn't
sound like green has anything tolose not really, not really at
all, and then he just died inprison.
But I think it's important toacknowledge that they're all
connected.
(17:27):
So so far you've gotChristopher Bush, who's got the
money, the power, the influence,dead, who was linked to Gregory
Green, who was alreadymolesting children before he met
Chris Bush, who was alsoalready molesting children.
So they're, you know, birds ofa feather.
So the two of them, feasiblythey're my top pick.
For who I think did this, Iwill say that I'm going to talk
(17:49):
about someone named VincentGunnels, and I have him kind of
asterisked because I don'tnecessarily think that Vincent
really should have been lookedat as closely as he was, I guess
.
So Vincent was molested byChristopher Bush and there are
beliefs that his mother paid himoff.
But like, did she pay him offto be silent about the murders?
Also, did he know something?
(18:11):
Wait, bush's mom paid offVincent's, yeah, because he was
molested by her son.
So, wait, the mom is on thistoo.
They pretty much, it seemedlike, were always out of the
country, always like doing theirown thing, leaving Chris home,
I think, and I'm trying to thinklike no, I wanted to try to be
devil's advocate and think like,ok, you're aware that your kid
(18:31):
does things you don't want toknow about, so you're trying to
just like do your best as aparent, but I feel like at that
point your best as a parent isto put him behind bars and let
him be there.
Hannah (18:39):
I mean you have to be a failure really at that point.
Being a failure really at thatpoint you live with your guilt.
Honestly, at that point Ibecause I just don't think
there's any way court thatyou're just born that way.
No, I don't think there has tobe another.
Courtney (18:51):
Something has to happen to you in order to to
kind of get that way.
So vincent's cellmate fromprison testified in 2009, after
gunnels was already released.
He was already released backout into the world.
His crimes I don't rememberexactly what they were, but they
were not as severe, obviously,as other people's that he had
(19:11):
spoken to him about beingmolested by a man who was a
child killer.
So this is Vincent's cellmateis saying Vincent told him that
he was molested by a childserial killer who we know to be
chris bush.
They found a dna match on ahair between him and christine
the victim.
When he was questioned about it, he refused to look at the
photograph of christine.
(19:32):
He was imprisoned again buteventually released in february
2011 with no charges related tothe occk against him.
So I'm thinking that vincentwas somebody who was weaker, who
was molested by chris, who wasaware of what happened, but I
don't think he.
He's a victim too.
I mean, he was being molested.
He's a victim too.
Hannah (19:51):
Do you know what he was in?
Courtney (19:51):
jail, for I probably do have it someplace.
I wouldn't be shocked if itcomes back later on, and this is
where things get really messyIn in the suspect list.
So I sorry.
Hannah (20:07):
One more thing.
Courtney (20:08):
So there was a hair, like I'm just processing, there
was a hair so that was in 2009is when they were able to link a
hair between him and christinenot necessarily that it was
vincent's hair on christine ahair that proved a link between
them.
And you're to see that a lotwhere these people are related
because, like you and I are inour car, we were in your car
(20:29):
this morning.
Hannah (20:30):
Yeah.
Courtney (20:30):
I'm going to get tea, right?
Rob has been in your car before, right?
I could end up committing acrime with Rob's hair on me, but
Rob wasn't part of it.
You know what I'm saying.
Hannah (20:39):
But, but could it also be like if, since Vincent was
also like, he was a victim, avictim, right.
Couldn't that be like they werejust brought to the same spot?
Courtney (20:51):
Could have been.
There's a lot.
There's a lot that's there, andI think the fact that when they
, when they asked him aboutChristine and they showed the
photograph and he refused tolook at it, it made me wonder
myself if there was some childpornography done between male
victims and female victims andif he was like, I know what I
had to do to that girl and Idon't want to think about it
(21:12):
right doesn't mean you're guiltyit just means like you're
grossed out immediately.
Hannah (21:16):
That's what I thought.
I.
I thought the same exact thing.
That does not mean you'reguilty.
Courtney (21:19):
It just means, like you have a conscience, like I
remember what I had to do orwhat I went through, and I but
they're groomed, and you have toremember when all that happened
it was in the 70s, so it's avery different mental health
type of thing too.
I don't know how much wasbelieved about like ptsd, and if
you've been through somethingyou know what I mean, you know
what I just thought of.
Hannah (21:37):
This might be a little off track here, but do you
remember going to the mall?
And yeah, you would always likehey, you look great for one of
our child bottle.
Courtney (21:46):
Blah, blah I wonder if they were like sex trafficking.
Hannah (21:48):
I think about that a lot I mean, I know a couple times
like my mom was like no, no,you're not photographing my
child.
But I'm pretty sure there wasone point like I did get
photographed, like, granted, Idid have my clothes on, but it
was sketchy as all get out,because they come get you in the
middle of the mall and then yougo down like these weird alley
things to like an empty roomwell, and this is totally
unrelated, but I I've even seenlike people on tiktok again.
Courtney (22:11):
You know I'll caution you.
If you're seeing things ontiktok, check the references on.
That doesn't mean they're true,but people who are talking
about like hotels and likedisneyland that have like access
to rooms where there's childrenstaying and then they go into
these places where it's like adungeon and I.
I don't have firsthandknowledge, if that's correct.
Yeah, but it really doesn'tseem far-fetched to me for where
we're at with the world,unfortunately well, I appreciate
(22:33):
that my mom was like a littlemore.
Hannah (22:34):
Uh, I'm not overbearing, that's not the word I'm looking
for, but just like protectivelike, yeah, fuck you, you're not
.
I don't know who you are.
You are not photographing mychild.
Courtney (22:42):
It's also very beautiful it's very weird, but I
feel like I mean, we talkedabout a lot with, like, danny
croto case.
Yeah, like you think thatthere's this person who's taking
an interest in your child andthey're there to help and maybe
you, you know, you're a singleparent or whatever, you don't
have the time to do the thing,or you're just like, wow, this
person's being really nice.
I feel like I'm always thinkingabout especially working with
kids like why is that personright being nice, right, right
(23:04):
yeah, which, by the way, I thinkhis death date is coming.
It is, isn't it, april I, Ithought it was april.
We have to go see.
We have to go visit him.
Yes, I'm gonna look him up whileyou keep talking so now we're
going to talk about someonenamed richard lawson, I will say
, also deceased at age 66,ironically only six years into
his life sentence for killing acabbie.
(23:24):
He, you know, unfortunatelyonly died six years into that
sentence.
So he made a formal statementto the police that lamborghini
another person that we'll talkabout, um showed him
pornographic images of a boy whoresembled tim and that he could
identify a man in the photowith him.
But he would not give it up,give up that name, unless he was
going to get immunity.
(23:44):
So he kept it as a chip, andwhat I really want to highlight
here is the first time I waslike yes, please.
They did not offer him any kindof deal.
They were like that's great,you keep that name to yourself,
we're not giving you immunity.
Yeah, yeah, 20 years ago maybeeven longer at this point I have
to check the date on the bookbut he had called Barry King,
timothy's father, from prison torequest that he come and talk
(24:04):
to him, and Barry never went,but he did alert the police that
this person made contact withhim.
In 2012, this man contactedBarry again, but this time by
letter, and so he did not go,but he sent his attorney out to
visit him in jail and hereported that he and a man named
Bobby Moore used to quoteunquote get boys for H Lee Bush,
(24:26):
who was Christopher's father.
So yeah, november of 2009,.
Barry disclosed that a mannamed Tim Nummer, who knew his
son, reported that in 1992 hehad sold clothes to some cops at
a retail store and when heasked casually about timmy's
case, they said, oh, that's beensolved.
(24:47):
He was killed by the son ofsome auto exec who was turned in
by his attorney.
Tim number offered later on togo public with this statement
and when he did, the reporter,state prosecutor and state
police all failed to follow upon his statement.
So there's your policeinvolvement again, and while I
do feel like, like RichardLawson, played a small role, he
again is showing a connectionbetween Lamborghini and the Bush
(25:12):
family and he's reaching outspecifically to one of the
victim's families, so he'sconnecting himself back in too.
Hannah (25:21):
So did those cops just kind of talk out of place Like,
oh yeah, we already know who didit?
Courtney (25:26):
And even such I mean even if that is the case the
right thing to do would havebeen to follow up on it.
Plus, the case is clearly notsolved.
I mean the amount of mediacoverage this thing has gotten.
I'm sure it was like newspaperarticle after newspaper article
after newspaper article.
Hannah (25:41):
I'm sure it was plastered everywhere.
I I kind of want the bushes forthis.
Courtney (25:43):
This just it feels it feels right yeah, and I feel
like and I kind of told myselfafter I had read like probably
halfway through the book I waslike you know what, if the
bushes aren't the person whosehand actually did the crime, I
still feel like they should havegotten accessory they know more
than they they knew how to getwhat they wanted, in my opinion,
and play different peopleagainst to use them for money so
(26:06):
the podcast you were listeningto like, did they have a
particular suspect that they orsuspects that they liked?
for the crime?
You know, not really.
And and so what I did noticethe common uh denominator
between podcasts for the oaklandcounty child killer was that
they were all pretty much late.
They were all laid outdifferently.
I think this one included islaid out very differently, um,
(26:27):
but they were also none of themused the source that I did,
which I liked, um, yeah, butthey also all kind of were about
like an hour and a half or twohours in length, and I feel like
they all kind of left with thatsame like what.
Like how did this guy or thisperson get away with this?
Um, and I think what it comesdown to is like did I mean, if
people can see it, did youreally get away with it?
(26:49):
Like, let's say, chris bush didit?
Did he really get away with it?
Because he kind of got hisanyways, I mean, I feel bad that
the families didn't get theirtheir closure.
Hannah (26:59):
But I do know like obviously his came in the end
anyways, at least the one thingthat the families did get was
the bodies were covered.
Courtney (27:06):
It's not like they're just wondering and they were
cared for, I think, the factthat the bodies were not, like,
mutilated other than than poorjill, yeah, yeah yeah, so I know
I've I've made promise thatwe're going to talk about
somebody named ted lambergine,um, but here he is.
So at the time of the book hewas 75 and was serving three
life sentences for unrelatedcrimes in michigan.
(27:27):
So just, a great great citizenright there some some things
about mr ted that I thought wereimportant, and there were a lot
of things.
Um, he refused to take apolygraph in the Oakland County
child killer case, optinginstead for a life sentence,
which seems kind of sus to me.
Hannah (27:43):
It does seem sus, but I also don't even like lie
detectors.
Courtney (27:45):
I don't really work all the time I don't either, but
the fact that you would flatout refuse it makes me a little
like, hmm, I mean, would you doone?
I mean, would you do one?
I mean, if I was going to be,if I was offered a different
deal for taking one or a lifesentence for something I didn't
do?
Yeah, probably, probably giveit a shot.
He laid low until RichardLawson testified about his
(28:06):
involvement in the Cass Corridorpedophile ring and also as the
Oakland County child killer.
In 2005, he was taken intocustody for the involvement in
the Cass Corridor situation, sohe did go down for that.
In 2007, he confessed to usingmoney, drugs and food to lure
(28:26):
young boys into being abductedinto homes, hotel rooms and a
bicycle shop where they weresexually assaulted and used to
make pornographic pictures whichwere sold.
Gross Gross.
Prior to that sentencingencing,he failed a polygraph test, so
he did end up taking one.
He was offered a 15-year stayin a more cushy federal prison
if he confessed to hisinvolvement, but he turned the
(28:47):
deal down saying only I havebeen forgiven.
What the fuck does that mean?
So let's, let's, before we getinto the pedophile ring, let's,
let's, list out ted Lambergine'scrimes for everyone shall we?
Hannah (28:58):
I'm sorry, like what the fuck does that mean?
Courtney (29:00):
I have no idea.
He said a lot of things thatwere very like.
I'm okay.
Hannah (29:04):
And we're like what the fuck does that even mean?
Right?
Courtney (29:07):
So his total crimes.
He had a life sentence for 14convictions of criminal sexual
conduct, 12 of which stemmedfrom summer 1976, only months
before the first OCCK murdersbegan.
Hannah (29:19):
Gross.
Courtney (29:20):
Two additional criminal sexual conduct charges
with a person under 13,.
The last offense date listed as12-31-1980, which is three
years after the last knownmurder on a holiday during the
winter.
Hannah (29:34):
That's New Year's Eve Okay eve, okay, but court.
So I thought we wanted thebushes for this, but they're all
connected.
So you think just lamborghini'sjust part of this sex ring?
Yes, so they're all fuckingguilty and they all deserve to
go to hell.
Courtney (29:49):
So what I think is really interesting is there's
there's a guy named geraldrichards, so let's, let's talk
about gerald richards I don'tknow if I can add another person
.
Hannah (29:59):
Court in my brain I'm aware.
Courtney (30:00):
I'm aware it's really hard.
So he is a mid-30s gym teacherfor saint joseph's catholic
elementary oh no, I have no, thecatholics don't know no he
offered to provide boys camp inexchange for helping with his
election pamphlets.
So he brought the children to asmall local airport, flew them
to north fox island, a three-daytrip that involved being
(30:20):
molested by gerald richards andfrank sheldon yeah, um, first of
all, gym teacher like yeah, butlike you're gonna pay for all
these boys yeah yeah.
So this guy is a real creep.
I mean he's like a certifiedcreep.
I even put that in my notes.
Like my notes say this guy is areal creep.
I mean he's like a certifiedcreep.
I even put that in my notes.
Like my notes say this guy is areal creep.
Um, he had been reported tostare at the school boys, pat
(30:41):
their butts and even measuretheir penises for athletic
purposes.
Okay, so there's, there weresigns.
There were signs that this manshould not have been near
children but he had great accessto them, right, because he was
a was a teacher.
Hannah (30:53):
Yeah, in a Catholic school, but like because, oh, if
you're in a Catholic school youmust be a person of God.
That is not a person of God.
Courtney (30:59):
No this person was not .
Hannah (31:00):
So how did he get away with all that?
But like, how did he get awaywith that?
Courtney (31:11):
And we're not even done.
Courtney, my brain hurts.
I know I'm a break.
I was up last night.
I need everyone on theWanderers to know.
Sidebar here for a minute.
I have been researching thiscase since it's been a while.
I'm like January.
Hannah (31:25):
It's been a while.
It's actually one of myfavorite songs.
Courtney (31:27):
I was about to start singing it and then I just had a
total brain fart.
But yeah, since, like january,and this has kept me up so many
nights where I'm like last nightalone I'm googling, I'm
googling, I'm googling, I'mlooking, I'm searching, there's
a lot, there's a lot here.
So at least two occurrences areknown in the summer of 1976,
where he and frank molestedchildren, either at a hotel or
(31:48):
at frank sheldon's home.
Okay, so this camp had twodirectors.
They were Frank and Gerald.
Ok, a 15 year old boy whoassisted with recruitment, named
Michael, was also molested andcould report many instances at
varying locations, some eveninvolving other minors.
So what was the purpose of thecamp?
(32:09):
The camp was to createphotographs and videos of child
pornography to dispense to thosewho quote unquote donated to
their cause.
So the client list equals theirsponsor list, which is
important because the sponsorswere paying for this camp,
because they were the clients.
That's disgusting.
When richards was brought infor questioning, he was a total
(32:30):
wreck on the verge of abreakdown.
Frank, meanwhile, flew away ona private jet, never to be seen
or heard from again.
Where'd the private jet comefrom?
The bushes, probably theairport.
That's exactly what I wasthinking so.
Somehow, despite knowing he wasin the netherlands, frank, he
escaped to the netherlands.
Nobody tried to extradite him.
They were never trying to doanything, even with fbi
(32:53):
involvement, which is importantso wait, I'm sorry, isn Isn't
the Netherlands like?
Hannah (32:56):
isn't Amsterdam part of that?
There's the red light district,I think so, where there's a lot
of trafficking.
Courtney (33:01):
Yep.
So some sources noted that hedied in the late 90s and some
speculate that he just took onanother identity and continued
to live on, which I'mhypothesizing was probably
related to other crimes.
Again, I'm assuming some shitblew up in his face again and he
moved on.
Yep, so march 1976, richardgives a testimony to the crimes
for a deal with leniency.
(33:23):
No, the timing of this one asit relates to mark fuck, mark
right.
When police received a warrantto search frank's ann arbor home
, it was vacant and the filmthat Richards testified was no
longer in the filing cabinets.
They were mostly just empty andsitting there.
So they finally get into thisguy's house because they had to
(33:43):
get a search warrant, eventhough he left and he went to
the Netherlands.
They get in there and, surprise, surprise, this man literally
flew away with all of the porn.
I'm assuming he just took it toanother country and continued,
under a new name, to give it tothe same clients, right?
Hannah (33:57):
that's kind of what I would assume well, it's not like
he's taking a usb drive likeright.
Courtney (34:00):
He's taking literally rolls and suitcases of film.
So this leads to multiple knownchild sex offenders being
investigated.
One, referred to as lindsey,was investigated and he stated
that he didn't know frank, butthe pornography found in the
home and receipts of donationspainted a clear picture of his
involvement.
Those records were destroyed bypolice instead of entered as
(34:21):
evidence, because they destroyedit thinking that they were
protecting the children.
Quote unquote okay, my mouth islike don't get me wrong as a
person who works with children,I totally understand that your
first instinct is I'm gonna, Igoing to destroy this, because I
don't want anybody to ever seethis again, and I think that
after they found them, theyshould have destroyed that.
However, with it having a linkdirectly to somebody, why would
(34:47):
you have destroyed it and notjust locked it up someplace?
Hannah (34:49):
Right and I get what you're saying, or did somebody?
Destroy it because they wereafraid someone else in the
police department was going tosell it again I, I get that
those are all great reasons, butlike, if you're going to find
that, then you know what otherchildren are affected by this
and you can help them.
So it's like, yes, you don'twant to see this evil, but like,
unless you see the evil, youcan't help.
Yeah, yeah.
Courtney (35:10):
So now you're probably thinking where did gerald
richards up the psych ward toawait his trial?
He confessed to secretownership of a medical clinic
natural medicine, so he wasn't adoctor in a place called Port
Huron, which later came up whena young girl testified to the
FBI that she watched her fatherand others that she called a
rich man rape and kill a fewpeople in a doctor's office
(35:32):
which could have been thisnatural medical office, and she
witnessed a police officer beingpresent during those rapes.
Eventually he pled guilty andwas sentenced between uh to two
to twenty years in prison.
He served 10 and was backliving in michigan by the late
1980s I mean court.
Hannah (35:49):
It kind of makes sense why this hasn't been solved yet
there's the police involvementthat, and there's so many people
involved.
This isn't just one killer,it's not.
Courtney (35:57):
There's so many people involved in this and then I do
think it's important to notethat june 10th of 1976 the
tennessee bureau of criminalidentification outlined a link
between boys farm, which isanother camp similar, and
several major sponsors that wereresiding in the detroit area.
So conveniently the names wereomitted from the official logs,
but somebody in a differentstate did identify that there
(36:19):
were people who were doing thesethings this isn't like.
Hannah (36:27):
This isn't like a, like a bundy.
I know I'm bringing him upagain, but like that was a
one-man deal.
Courtney (36:31):
Yeah you, this is messy and I think that it's also
important to talk about.
There was a doctor, Dr BruceDanto.
So Christine's body was foundon.
Bruce Lane was the name of thestreet that it was found on and
people believe that the killerwas trying to use the name Bruce
Lane to connect to Bruce Danto,the psychiatrist.
(36:52):
They believed he was trying touse it as some kind of way to
gain clout or to like to make itlook like the doctor was being
incriminated.
So danto was explicitly knownfor doing studies about violence
and he was an area psychiatristso he was well known.
So it almost looked likesomebody was trying to be like
look at these violent thingshappening and they're on bruce
lane.
So another way that they werekind of like mind fucking with
people yeah, it's not kind of astretch, though like even if
(37:13):
that's what they're on BruceLane.
Hannah (37:14):
So another way that they were kind of like mind fucking
with people.
Courtney (37:15):
Yeah, it's not kind of a stretch, though, like even if
that's what they're doing, Imean that's kind of how I felt,
which is why I kind of likethrew it at the end, because I
was like I mean it's worthnoting.
Yeah, a mysterious packagearrived at the doctor's home
with a note from allegedly theOakland County child killer's
roommate.
The letter was typed andclaimed to explain why the
killer attacks children and thathe is a vietnam vet.
And they signed it just fromalan.
They bugged danto's phone andwhen alan called requesting a
(37:39):
meeting to grant his immunity,they sent danto with an
undercover cop.
Someone approached the cop atthis gay bar that they were
going to because alan suggestedthe place and he shut him down
so that the cop is undercover.
He gets hit on by a gay man.
They speculate that alan gotaway because the cop couldn't
put on a convincing act and letthe man just hit on him at the
gay bar because they.
(37:59):
So alan quote, unquote nevershowed up.
But I believe that it was theguy who approached the cop
trying to hit on him, and sothere's a lot of speculation
about alan where it's like, washe real?
Was it somebody who was just ahoax?
Because obviously that happenswhere people write in and they
try to like get attention and doall these things?
Yeah, and I don't really know.
I mean, I think that from whatI understand, there was no
(38:23):
roommate of any of the suspectsthat I am aware of and wasn't
really super talked about.
Probably they would have madethat connection pretty easily,
and what I will say is so afterI read the book I was kind of
like okay, let me look and seewhat's like recent in the news.
Sometimes things come up yearslater and obviously those are
worth noting which they have oncertain cases.
Hannah (38:41):
we've done Right, so in 2013,.
Courtney (38:44):
A new suspect enters the chat.
His name is archibald,otherwise known as arch sloan
sounds rich yeah, he does,archibald.
I love that name, but neatarchibald gossip girl.
Hannah (38:57):
Xoxo, gossip girl.
You know, you love me.
Oh, that was really good, Ishould do gossip by the way
wanders like we do, like gossipgirls, we like re-watch it.
Courtney (39:07):
We're weird it's a comfort.
It is a comfort show when we'reall done watching serial killer
movies.
So Archibald Sloan wasincarcerated since 1983 for sex
crimes against boys.
Of course, similar to ChrisBush and Gregory Green, he had a
lengthy list of crimes,beginning with indecent exposure
at around 19 and leading torape and sexual assault, you
know so on in his 20s.
(39:28):
Assault, you know so, on in his20s.
So he escalated pretty quickly.
He did some time on.
His first sex charges was outin Detroit in 1975.
He was working at servicestations, so gas stations, and
he was living not far from thespot where Mark Stebbins was
dropped in Southfield.
At the time of the OaklandCounty child killer murder
investigation he was given apolygraph and allegedly passed
given by the same person who didChris Bush and Gregory Green
(39:52):
their polygraphs, and they wereboth found to be faulty.
So I'm like if both of thosepolygraphs were found to be
faulty and the same guy did thisguy's, you know okay.
So despite this, they searchedhis car even though he had
failed the polygraph.
So, like now you're talkingabout, they're just doing things
kind of recklessly.
So despite it, they searchedhis car and combed for evidence
(40:13):
a vehicle that did not match thevehicle description related to
the crimes.
By the way, not at all thehairs that were found.
They were not submitted until2013.
So to determine that they'rewhat?
Yeah, yeah, they weren'tsubmitted.
Don't ask why Surprised theystill fucking had them.
Probably, yeah, surprised theystill fucking had them probably
yeah.
Hannah (40:31):
Who even knows if they're the same ones or if?
Courtney (40:32):
they pulled.
Yeah, exactly at this pointthey were determined that
mitochondrial matches to thehair found on both mark and
tim's body.
So this hair that was a matchdid not belong to sloan or to
vincent gunnels.
It must have been to someoneelse who had been in the car
nearby to them, which I know Italked about when we talked
about vin Gunnels too.
So it was determined that thissuspect is linked to the
(40:53):
murderer and might even know whoit is, but that he is likely
not the killer.
Links from him to Lamborghiniand Lawson are also assumed
based on his child sex crimes.
It was likely he was connectedto Chris Bush also.
So you're talking about allthese people I'm trying to
figure out.
So earlier on we also talkedabout and this is kind of like a
(41:15):
just keep this in the back ofyour head so we talked about the
boy named Sebastian and how hehad talked to one police officer
who you know ended up killed.
Well, there's another policemanwho was related to that as well
, who was found dead of asuicide Of course, in a church
parking lot in his car.
A nun and a priest reportedseeing two people in the
darkness in a blue car hoursbefore he was found.
Two guns found in the car werea police issued weapon to him,
(41:39):
so his own and a 44 caliber thatwas registered to his partner
and found on the passenger sidefloor.
There was no gunshot residuetest in the final police report.
The date of death was November14th 1978.
Two gunshot wounds to the chest, two different guns, two people
observed in the car, no residueon his own hands.
Remember November 22nd 1978,chris Bush was found shot to
(42:04):
death with a rifle shot to theforehead, completely tucked into
bed and ruled a suicide, and noresidue on his own hands.
The medical examiner estimatedfour days before was the date
that he died.
So if he was found on november22nd and four days before was
the 18th, that means thatofficer flynn and chris bush
were killed within four days ofeach other and both ruled a
(42:25):
suicide with no gunshot residueon either of their hands
bullshit.
So you're talking.
I just put that in there as away to paint like there's
clearly some corruption going on, oh, absolutely.
And Officer Flynn was not asuspect, so he was just somebody
who must have known too much.
And as it relates back toSebastian talking to him, it
makes sense he knew too much andso they killed him off.
And it seems to be a patternthat whenever somebody knows too
(42:47):
much they kill them off, whichis why I think none of the other
books were ever finished it.
Hannah (42:52):
Just.
It boggles my mind that, as aperson with experience right
dealing with dead bodies, youcan put suicide on these, these
death certificates.
And how did they allow that?
Courtney (43:03):
that's the other part, like there had to have been a
whole corrupt system in place todo that, because otherwise I'm
just not sure, like if we wereworking together it's 101 court,
like there's no gun charge.
Hannah (43:16):
We know, and we haven't taken any classes on forensics,
it's just from like basicknowledge.
Courtney (43:23):
That's so upsetting it's upsetting, it's sad, it's
very sad and it's such like anunjust case that I feel like
that's why I'm having a hardtime letting it go myself, where
I'm like I kept digging anddigging and digging.
What I did appreciate that waskind of at the end of the book,
again in my reflection section.
I like that you do that.
The author talks about how DrNicholas Groth from the
(43:44):
Massachusetts Treatment Centerfor Sexually Dangerous Persons
completed a profile for thekiller which I thought was
interesting.
Center for Sexually DangerousPersons completed a profile for
the killer, which I thought wasinteresting.
So I'm going to read throughthe profile and then I'm going
to tell you what the authorstake on it and I'm going to see
if you agree and that's howwe're going to close out our
episode and we'll see how itgoes.
Hannah (44:01):
So it's a big opening where, at the end, isn't it?
Courtney (44:03):
It's just yeah it's a big, big, big, vast black hole.
Yeah, I've got nine things thatdr groth was able to determine
in his profile of the killer.
Okay.
So the first one was the killerwas intelligent but with no
formal education, which I agreewith.
I think that makes sense.
The second was the killer wasnot of a moneyed background or
(44:25):
esteemed social standing okay.
The third was the killer wasnot in a position of authority
in the workplace the power piece.
Four the killer had a previousrecord of criminal activity for
violence just beneath the degreeof violence now being
perpetrated by him, soinsinuating that he kind of got
away.
Whoever it was, they kind ofgot away.
Five the sex of the child wasless relevant to the killer than
(44:47):
the age of the child, which Idefinitely agree with as well.
Six the cleansing of the bodieswas in service to purification
which I agree.
I would agree with that seven,while mark had been struck on
the head, no violence other thansexual was inflicted on his
body, suggesting that it was areaction and not intended.
The same can be concluded aboutjill and the shotgun blast,
(45:08):
which I 100 agree with.
Eight, the positioning of markand christine was interpreted as
ritualistic because they had,like, a folded, relaxed position
about them.
And then nine, the killer'sfair treatment of the children
suggested a lifelong longing foraffection and or validation
from others.
Absolutely, I 100 agree with andwhat I enjoyed was the way that
(45:28):
the author broke it down, is helined up all of the profile
with kind of his own likethoughts on everything.
So let me, kenzie, I see thatyou really want to be included
here hannah's is all abouthannah's adorable little dog
wants to be directly she likesto think she's part of the
(45:49):
episode.
She likes to think she's part ofthe episode.
He, he kind of lays it all outand he says each one where he's
like the killer was intelligentbut with no formal education.
Green.
Hannah (45:58):
The killer was not of a moneyed background or esteemed
social standing gregory green sothat's why I was confused,
because I thought, okay, so isit kind of like green was the
brains behind it and bush justhad the money for it and the
prestige.
Courtney (46:13):
So the author drew the connection to Gregory Green at
each of the points andhighlighted that the reason
Green may not have ever beencharged was due to the fact that
Bush was involved in it and hismoney and power was what was
keeping them from being charged.
Because if you think about it,if they had ever tried to
formally charge Gregory Green,he would have rolled on Bush in
an instant.
And I'm wondering.
(46:34):
My theory with no evidenceWanderers, this is just me
speculating after what I read.
My theory is that Chris Bushwas in on it because of his
father.
It was a bigger situation andChris was being set up by his
father to take the fall if heneeded to.
I think Chris was no longerwanting to be a part of it.
His father took him out.
His father had the money to beable to take out all the other
people too, without actuallygetting his hands dirty.
(46:56):
And I'm wondering if gregorygreen didn't just find himself
in a place where he was seekingthat validation.
He was seeking that prestigeand he had that.
He was so opposite of chris,but they had the same love of
young children all right.
Hannah (47:11):
So the first two we say are green.
Can we go through them again?
What's?
Courtney (47:15):
the third one, again, the killer was not in a position
of authority in the workplace.
Okay, so I didn't even know ifI didn't even know if he had a
job.
The last the only thing I knewabout his employment status was
that he had been in undercovernarcotics so could we also say
that for bush?
Hannah (47:27):
because if the dad is the one that owned the company,
maybe he's like oh, you're justa child.
Courtney (47:32):
You have, yeah, one of those like parents that are
just like you're not ready tohold yes, and I think the reason
why he was leaning towardsgreen is because chris did go to
like a very fancy, likeoverseas boarding school, like
he got a really high end, um,really high end education.
Next one the killer had aprevious record of criminal
activity for violence justbeneath the degree of violence
(47:52):
now being perpetrated by him.
So I think that's where we werekind of branching off into
Green, because even though Chrishad that, I mean and violence
is sexual assault I'm not sayingit isn't but Green had that
strangled a person right up tothe point where they were almost
dead.
So I see where the connectionconnection was clearer for green
there um, and then he calledems but then he escalated just
(48:13):
slightly to the point where hedidn't call ems, yeah, yeah.
So the next one is the sex ofthe child was less relevant to
the killer than the age of thechild, which could have been for
any of them, because obviouslyso, thinking about green, he had
that like hundreds of childrencould have been boys and could
have been girls.
Hannah (48:28):
I think there's something to be said for those
that age of like puberty and notpuberty and depending on
development.
Yeah, because if we think aboutDr Bill Bass, which we talked
about in the forensic book aboutthe death's acre in the body
farms, you know something Ididn't know.
Is that, like when you look ata child, a male and female
skeleton are the same?
(48:48):
Right, it's not until pubertywhere women actually develop
hips and everything else.
Courtney (48:53):
Yeah, so that could have come into play as well so a
certain degree it almostdepending on what kind of sexual
assault the person was goingafter.
Right, the physical bodyprobably didn't make that much
difference like, also like hair.
Hannah (49:07):
You know, like girls, little girls, don't have hair
yet, right like we don't developthat till puberty too.
So there's a lot of things thatlook similar.
There's a lot.
Courtney (49:15):
Not not to get gross, I just you know it's science and
I think a lot of the way thatwe discuss it and I think a lot
of the way that people wholisten to us know that we
discuss it is based on science.
It's not it's not based onbeing creepy right um, though
sometimes that line feels prettyblurred.
Hannah (49:28):
We all be respectful because like yeah of course
these kids like we.
Just, they went throughsomething awful and so did their
families.
Courtney (49:34):
I mean, I can't imagine what kind of like
ownership, especially barry king, who was just, he's easy to
talk about because he was soinvolved in it.
Clearly this is a person who, Imean he was an attorney, he was
you know what.
I mean he was prominent too andhe was connected to the law.
And obviously it makes mewonder was his child picked,
even though he was an outlier,because he was connected to the
law?
And obviously it makes mewonder was his child picked,
even though he was an outlier,because he was connected to the
law?
Hannah (49:54):
I can't imagine like going to bed and waking up every
day, where you're just thinkingabout your child.
Are they gonna find them today?
Are they gonna find them today?
And?
Courtney (50:00):
I know that we certainly were not just
extending that, I guess,heartfelt concern to these
families, but a lot of thefamilies we've talked about,
yeah, the same could be sameabout maura murray.
The same thing could be saidabout lynn burdick.
Lynn burdick, it always comesback to lynn burdick for me.
Hannah (50:17):
Our roman empires, our roman empires so six was the
cleansing of the bodies was inservice to purification which I
agree, then like childlikeexactly, and like porcelain doll
is what I keep going back toyeah and then seven is 100%
green in my head.
Courtney (50:33):
When Mark had been struck on the head, no violence
other than sexual was inflictedon his body, suggesting that it
was a reaction and not intended,exactly like the boy who got
him caught in California.
Hannah (50:42):
Yeah.
Courtney (50:43):
The positioning of Mark and Christine was
ritualistic was number eight.
I feel like somebody who'smolested that many people
probably has a ritual.
Hannah (50:53):
So I'm sorry.
Was that the kids that werefound at the police station?
Courtney (50:56):
No, that was the ditch in the Mark was the state
police area and Christine wasthe side of a railroad.
Hannah (51:05):
That was the postal service person.
Courtney (51:08):
Okay, Correct, and Christine was gone the longest.
So that was the first and thelongest.
If you want to look at it, thatperson?
Okay, correct, and Christinewas gone the longest.
So that was the first and thelongest.
If you want to look at it thatway, okay.
And then nine the killer's fairtreatment of the children.
Suggested a lifelong affectionand or validation seeking oh,
100%, absolutely.
And I could see how that couldalso be Bush or Green, because
I'm sure that growing up in ahouse the way like Bush's family
sent him away to boardingschool and then he had these
(51:29):
issues and they kept leaving toEurope, I can see where that
abandonment.
Even though I can understandwhy a parent might want to be
like stay over there, stay inyour lane, I can see where that
could impact them too.
So I'm definitely reallyleaning towards there's a bigger
scheme here, the fact that itrelates all back into this child
sex trafficking ring.
Hannah (51:48):
It's not just one person .
It's not just one person.
Courtney (51:49):
And I think it's super hard to look at.
A final thing that I kind ofwant to link to Chris Bush, just
because I know I'm kind of onthat line where I'm like Bush
green, bush green.
In Mark's case, specifically,there is a link to Christopher
Bush.
So when Bush's body was found,there was a pencil drawing over
(52:11):
his bed.
So he was found in his bed,wrapped in his bedding, shot to
the forehead.
There was a drawing over hisbed in pencil that resembled
Mark wearing a hoodie.
Eyes closed, screaming out inpain was how the boy was
depicted in the picture.
And this was also kept out ofall the press and from the
victim's families.
So it was a piece of art, yeah,drawn onto the wall.
Only law enforcement officersinvolved knew that detail.
(52:33):
Nobody else was ever clued inon it and and a lot of people
speculated, was the sketchartwork completed by chris as a
memento or was it planted at thescene after his suicide as a
way to to like?
Hannah (52:45):
I'm sorry, could you use last name?
So it was.
It was bush that was found.
Yeah, christy, and they'rewondering if green is the one
that drew it they didn't say.
Courtney (52:54):
They're just wondering if somebody else, whoever, if
christopher bush was not asuicide, which I don't think, I
don't think he was eitherwhoever the killer was, whether
it was someone hired to kill orsomeone killing for their own
agenda.
There was question aboutwhether it was like did
christopher bush draw thatbecause he wanted to remember
mark?
Did christopher bush draw itbecause he was planning to kill
(53:15):
mark?
Or was it like I'm killing youand I'm putting that there so
they really link you to it andthey stop looking for me?
Hannah (53:21):
I'm guessing there's not a picture of?
Courtney (53:25):
the artwork.
The only person who knew aboutit was police officers.
So when you, when you summarizeit, christopher bush had
connections from him to franksheldon's island sex ring
associates linking him to lawsonand lamborghese, and he was
directly associated with gregorygreen and archibald sloan,
whose mitochondrial dna wasfound on the two victims bodies,
(53:46):
it's reasonable he was thecommon denominator in all these
killings, parrot with hispowerful and rich family.
And my conclusion says that ifI had to put one person in my
mind who I think was themastermind or the the common
denominator, it's chris bush.
I because green, wouldn't havehad the access to the other
things without bush, I think.
(54:07):
I think that's the first spotand unfortunately, I think
whoever else was in on it and Ido think there was a lot of
people in on it they knew takinghim out was going to be.
Maybe they thought he wouldroll.
Yeah, because he's out of thesuspects.
He's the only one who waskilled off.
The other ones died in prison.
Damn, maybe the other onesbanded together and were like we
got to make this guy go.
Hannah (54:28):
I do agree, though, we gotta make this guy go.
Courtney (54:32):
I I do agree, though it wasn't one person.
It wasn't, it couldn't havebeen.
Maybe all of the acts were oneperson, but they served the
purpose of stealing thosechildren and it's disgusting to
think about served multiplepeople sick yep fantasies,
multiple yep, and so that is, atthis current state in time, on
march 9th 2025 at 1.15 pm, theOakland County child killer case
(54:56):
.
According to Courtney, that wasamazing.
Hannah (54:59):
It was Thank you, for that was a lot Of course.
Courtney (55:02):
And I feel like I thought I was going to feel
better after, like, oh, it's allout, and I'm just like, nope, I
still it's going to be one ofthose cases that lingers in my
mind and when it comes up I'mjust like, nope, I still it's
gonna be one of those cases thatlingers in my mind and when it
comes up I'm gonna be like Ihave to, I have to look at this,
but if anybody else has otherresearch or theories, write in,
tell us all about it.
We would love to hear whatother people think about it too,
(55:23):
and I have one other tbr bookto do for the podcast, so if
people have suggestions ofthings they want, my individual
uh list is open, so I mean, Ihave plenty.
I could fill it in with text us, please, you too, cousin mark I
picked my old card.
Hannah (55:41):
Is that okay?
Courtney (55:42):
yeah, no, that's fine all right, here's gonna be a
card for us pick a god any god.
Hannah (55:53):
Four of clubs, are you sure?
Yes, are you sure?
I have to think of the spadeshape.
Courtney (56:00):
And then I know this could you dig a hole with it.
Yes or no?
No, so it's four clubs, so fourclubs.
Hannah (56:04):
Herbert r dixon on september 19th 1994, herber R
Dixon.
On September 1994 at 7.32 am,barnstable Police responded to
250 Vineyard Road in Cotuit Idon't think I've ever heard of
that, cotuit, c-o-t-u-i-t.
Cotuit and located the victimwith a single shotgun wound to
the back of the head.
(56:25):
Oh wow, not a shotgun again,that's uh execution style yeah.
The victim was the solecaretaker of the 60 acre estate
and would allow individuals fromthe area to hunt and fish on
the property when the ownerswere away.
Hmm, interesting.
Courtney (56:40):
If you have any info about this case, please call
1-855-MA-SOLVE I feel likeending on a card kind of sucks,
because it's like we read thisthing and we don't know anything
about it, because we go inblind.
We just pick it and then I justfeel like, damn, I guess we
could start, once we finishthese cards, going through and
researching the cases.
Yeah, absolutely, I've beenkind of teasing.
(57:02):
The idea of this was my first.
I don't.
Was this wicked wanderings?
No, it wasn't the firstunsolved.
No, we've had disappearances.
But have we ever had unsolvedmurders?
I know someone's gonna have tofact check us on this.
It was my first unsolved onethat I've done, aside from lynn,
which I have to just call it adifferent category, but I really
(57:23):
kind of enjoy it.
I have like a love haterelationship with unsolved cases
because, unsolved is likethere's ample stuff on it.
It kind of lives through theability to like, work your brain
into it.
But I feel like it's such a sadthing that then I want to go
down the rabbit hole and solveit, even though I know many
people before me have tried todo it.
Hannah (57:41):
Obviously I feel like I need to go through my books and
like think if there's anyunsolved murders, because of
course we have disappearances,right?
We?
Have marmory first right.
Courtney (57:53):
I don't know we're gonna have to come back to that
well we do have on our list thatwe want to come up with.
We want to create ourspreadsheet.
Yes, I feel like the wandersmight want to listen to us too.
I don't know why they wouldwant to do that, but I don't
know wonders if you love us, ifyou love us, let us know.
Not us, let us know.
Not just Cousin Mark, we lovehim, but we want more people to
love us.
Hannah (58:13):
We want more Cousin Marks.
Just don't talk aboutcannibalism.
Courtney (58:17):
I do have to say this is terrible, but I will say I
was out, and yesterday I was outat a convention kind of thing.
And so this man walks up to meand he's he's a vendor, I should
say, not just a random man andhe walks with me and he has a
pair of like cooking scissorsand he cuts a piece of beef
jerky off and hands it to me.
And I had this moment where Icouldn't get cannibalism out of
(58:40):
my head and I'm like watching mydad eat this piece of jerky and
I just want to like reach intohis mouth like a dog and pull it
back out, because all I canthink about is I love that song
yeah.
Hannah (58:54):
It's because of Mark's fault, we'll blame him.
Yeah, so now I think about thatconstantly.
Courtney (58:59):
So on that note, wanderers, don't think about
cannibalism, don't eat beefjerky from random people and
always keep on wandering.
Hannah (59:07):
Bye guys, bye.
Thanks for listening today.
Wicked Wanderings is hosted byme Hannah and co-hosted by me
Courtney.
Courtney (59:14):
And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick.
Hannah (59:16):
Music by Sasha M.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review and be sure to followon all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
(59:37):
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
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