April 2, 2025 • 35 mins
The Yorkshire Ripper case reveals how Peter William Sutcliffe, a seemingly normal man, became one of Britain's most notorious killers while taunting police with fake letters and cassette tapes later revealed to be hoaxes.
• Sutcliffe sought publicity and attention through his crimes
• Letters and tapes sent to police were actually elaborate hoaxes from someone unconnected to the murders
• After killing Josephine Whitaker, authorities realized all women were at risk, not just sex workers
• Police responded by imposing curfews on women rather than men, sparking protests
• Women organized protest marches past curfew to express their outrage
• Sutcliffe was caught through a routine traffic stop when an officer noticed mismatched license plates
• He confessed immediately after arrest without resistance
• Despite attempting an insanity defense, the jury found him sane and sentenced him to minimum 30 years
• After his conviction, he confessed to additional attacks that authorities weren't aware of
• Died in November 2020 from COVID-19 complications after serving just 13 years
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cousin Marc (00:00):
That sounds pretty good.
Courtney (00:01):
Is something on fire.
I'm sorry, cousin Mark.
No, no, I can smell somethingburning.
Burning, yes, I smell a burning.
Smell.
Well, there's candles on.
It's like when you leave theiron on.
It's like when you leave theiron on for too long.
Yes, oh, my God.
Cousin Marc (00:17):
The kitchen's on fire.
Courtney (00:18):
Is there a fire?
Hey, hang on, there's a fire.
Cousin Marc (00:24):
Oh boy, Don't burn the house down.
Courtney (00:25):
I'm getting water, I'm getting water.
Cousin Marc (00:29):
Holy shit people.
They're talking about gettingwater and throwing water on.
Hopefully, everything's okay.
I don't know if I should put iton the top or.
Oh God, okay, okay, that wasjust a big flash.
Rob (00:45):
Okay.
Hannah (00:56):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Courtney (01:02):
Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal
encounters and all things spooky, Grab your flashlight and get
ready to wander into thedarkness with us.
Hannah (01:08):
This is Wicked Wanderings.
Hello Courtney, hi Hannah andhello Mark.
Cousin Marc (01:31):
Welcome back here in the virtual flesh.
In the virtual flesh.
Courtney (01:34):
We are here for part two of Mark's episode.
So if you haven't listened tolast week's episode, make sure
you go back and listen to thatone first, so you don't miss any
of the details.
There you go, Trust me.
Hannah (01:43):
Last week's episode was really interesting.
Courtney (01:45):
You don't want to miss it.
Cousin Marc (01:46):
No, no, you don't want to miss that.
This guy was quite thecharacter.
Although at first you did openby saying he was a nice
gentleman, this nice clean-cutgentleman.
But you know, I opened that waybecause that is exactly how he
looked.
He looked very presentable,nothing like a monster, and I'm
(02:08):
bringing him up just like Bundy.
Courtney (02:10):
Oh, five minutes and 50 seconds in, and Mark brings
up Bundy.
Hannah (02:15):
Love a good Bundy.
Cousin Marc (02:16):
That's it.
You look at these guys and theyreally don't look like they're
what they do.
Yep, that's what makes it soscary?
Courtney (02:24):
That's what makes it so scary, is it's what makes?
It so scary, is it's it's right, hiding in plain sight?
Yep, absolutely.
Cousin Marc (02:29):
And that brings us into part two, where he's
becoming more brazen and he'slooking for publicity.
Courtney (02:37):
Okay, you got me hooked.
I'm interested.
Cousin Marc (02:39):
Yeah, just like.
Um, just like BTK did when heyou know writes a letter to the
editor of the newspaper and sayshow many people do I have to
kill before I get anyrecognition?
Hannah (02:52):
Look at me, look at me.
Cousin Marc (02:53):
That's it.
That's how these people are.
They're only looking forthemselves and their own
gratification.
Courtney (02:59):
Attention.
Motivated function attention.
Cousin Marc (03:01):
That's right.
So, with him looking to be inthe spotlight, the police are
making a plea to get him to turnhimself in.
Obviously, you know thatdoesn't happen Right At this
point.
There now starts a series ofletters that were written and
sent to the police office.
They were sent to the lab tosee if they could get any
(03:21):
biological things off of it, andone of the things that they had
found was that the person whowrote the letter was a bee
secretor, so they had the bloodmixed with the semen when things
like that happened, which only6% of men have it.
Courtney (03:36):
Wait, wait, wait a minute.
We've had that conversationbefore on a different episode.
I think too.
Yeah, maybe it was.
Hannah (03:45):
I think I also found it when I was doing the Babysitter.
Can someone please remind meabout that conversation?
Courtney (03:48):
Hannah might have been three sheets, to the wind maybe
four Listen.
Rob (03:51):
Maybe, seven.
Courtney (03:52):
Listen, we did.
We had that conversation abouthow only a certain percentage of
men have that and that wasanother case.
We were talking about that.
That was how they determinedthat that was somebody they were
looking at, because they fitthat profile as well.
Cousin Marc (04:07):
Yeah, and back then , at this time, that was the
only thing they could do wasanalyze blood types and whatnot.
After the letter showed up,there was a cassette tape that
he was using to taunt the police, of course, throwing things out
there and saying differentthings about how you're not
going to catch me and this, andthat Almost like the Jack the
(04:29):
Ripper letters that was sentduring that time, the Dear Boss
letters.
Hannah (04:34):
I always feel like these are the kids that were like,
that were really good at tagYou're not going to catch me.
You're not going to catch me.
Courtney (04:41):
So was he using his actual voice on the cassette or
was he like misconstruing?
Cousin Marc (04:46):
it.
Courtney (04:46):
He was Very, very ballsy, I figured because he was
attention seeking, that it waslike I'm hiding right in plain
sight.
I don't even have to doanything to hide it.
Cousin Marc (04:55):
That's it.
We come to this point where,april of 79, he takes the life
of 19 year old JosephineWhitaker.
He takes the life of19-year-old Josephine Whitaker
this is the one that we hadtalked about before where he had
her helping look at the vehiclebecause the vehicle wouldn't
start.
Why is it?
He ended up killing her whenshe was looking under the hood
(05:17):
and he dragged her out into afield.
Courtney (05:19):
Right, that's right.
We did talk about that.
Cousin Marc (05:22):
Yeah, she wasn't a prostitute.
The drag marks indicated shewas attacked at the road and was
dragged into the field.
He was not a prostitute.
So that showed everybody thatall women were at risk.
Right, because the police atthis time were watching the red
light district and he knew thatthey were doing this For him to
(05:44):
go find a prostitute and do histhing.
Hannah (05:46):
He was changing his actions up to throw him off was
it now that they just might havelooked a little alluring and
then he just assumed she was aprostitute?
Or is he just changing his molike totally?
Does anyone speculate?
Courtney (06:00):
or he's changing it because he's trying to see how
far he can push the police.
That's what it sounds like he'sdescribed.
Cousin Marc (06:07):
Yes, plus, it was all, as we were getting into it
last week, was the fact that hehated women.
Hannah (06:13):
Right yeah.
Cousin Marc (06:14):
Because he had the issue with his mother cheating
on his father, and his fathershowed him everything.
It started off with prostitutesbecause they were easy targets.
Then he just started grabbingpeople off the street.
Courtney (06:25):
And prostitutes have the sex work piece as well.
So it's probably easier in hisbrain to say like women are, you
know, whatever the thing hethinks about their sexual acts.
And then he finds women who dothat for work, and I'm sure that
that's an easy, easygeneralization for him to make.
Cousin Marc (06:41):
Yeah, a couple of letters were still coming in.
The police still had the audiotapes for him to make.
Yeah, a couple of letters werestill coming in.
The police still had the audiotapes.
They had a stamp on theenvelope from the post office
and a voice that had an accentthat narrowed where he could be
from.
Hannah (06:56):
Let me guess Yorkshire.
Cousin Marc (06:57):
Oh it was.
It was like a.
I think they said it was like aCockney accent.
Hannah (07:03):
Oh, okay.
Cousin Marc (07:04):
Which was in a different part of England.
Hannah (07:07):
It's amazing, just for such a small part of a continent
, how their accents do change.
Courtney (07:12):
It really is amazing.
I mean, ours are kind of likethat too, yeah but America's
huge.
Hannah (07:17):
America's huge, though.
Listen to Mark talk.
Cousin Marc (07:19):
Yeah, but you guys are out there with your accent
and then I'm out here with theBoston accent.
Courtney (07:24):
Do we have an accent?
We do we have an accent.
Cousin Marc (07:28):
Yeah, yours is more Connecticut-based.
Hannah (07:30):
Ew what no one likes Connecticut.
Cousin Marc (07:33):
I know that, but I didn't say New York, so Does
mine sound like dragons.
Hannah (07:38):
Where the dragons are from.
Courtney (07:40):
I don't know if he knows that story, Does he?
I can't.
So when I went to college aquick segue I went to Maine for
two years and then I went toWorcester State for my last two
years, and so when I moved intoWorcester State, my dad's
helping me move my stuff in andsomebody.
My dad will talk to anybody.
He's like the mayor of everyplace he's ever been, so
somebody said oh, where are youfrom?
(08:00):
And he was like the Berkshires.
And they immediately were like,oh, where the dragons are.
And he was like, uh, sure, Iguess.
And then every person who askedus for the rest of that day we
got in the truck.
He's like what the fuck do theymean where the dragons are?
And we never understood.
Hannah (08:12):
People sometimes will still say it to me and I'm like
I don't know what that meansyeah, like I've never heard that
it's very odd, and people inworcester area seem to be the
ones that do it, and I'm likeyou know you're really not that
far from Western Mass right, atleast from this section of
Western Mass, like the lowerpart of Western Mass, I know
(08:33):
everyone will call North Adamsand up like the armpit of
Massachusetts, which isn'tlovely at all.
I'm a dragon loving armpit.
Cousin Marc (08:44):
I've always said about Massachusetts, it's got
that little bump on the bottompart of the state above
Connecticut.
Hannah (08:50):
Yeah, yeah, I actually have the tattoo, so it's got
that little bump right there,spring-filly Salmonella dips,
yeah, dips it, yeah yeah.
Rob (08:59):
Hi there, Rob, here from the future editing this lovely
podcast.
I just wanted to come on hereand give you a quick correction.
That little part that dips downinto Connecticut is actually
Southwick Massachusetts, and infact in the 1800s there was a
war between Connecticut andMassachusetts for that parcel of
(09:22):
land.
And now back to the podcast.
Cousin Marc (09:26):
That is the little tab that holds it from sliding
into the ocean.
Courtney (09:31):
I mean, I do like to think we are the backbone.
Cousin Marc (09:35):
Yeah, we are, hey, we're all started right.
Courtney (09:38):
Sure, that's right All right, so back to the killing
Back to mid, the only contextyou can say that in
appropriately.
Cousin Marc (09:46):
That's it.
So this time he gets BarbaraLeach in September of 79.
So he's got a few months now.
He only had a short walk homebut she never made it.
That one was tough for mostpeople and it started to rile up
the public again.
The public was tryingeverything they could do to
protect the women and this iswhere it started to aggravate
(10:07):
the women of England.
They were told to go nowherewithout a male companion.
Courtney (10:12):
I would drive you nuts .
Cousin Marc (10:15):
And they're pissed off because that's who's doing.
This is the men.
Courtney (10:18):
Right yeah.
Cousin Marc (10:19):
You know there's a guy out there taking all this up
yeah, out there taking all thisup.
All this time the police formedProject R, a massive PR
campaign to get the publicengaged with finding the Ripper.
They did massive advertisingwith the Ripper's handwriting
for all of them to look at, andthen they were continuously
(10:41):
playing the tapes in differentplaces for them to hear the
voice.
And one of the investigatorswas reading the letters and he
actually made a connection withJack the Ripper.
Wait a minute, the way he waswriting the letters.
It was almost like the DearBoss letters were scripts for
(11:02):
him to write his letter.
Hannah (11:05):
Okay.
Cousin Marc (11:06):
The same way Jack the Ripper haunted the police
Like a glorifying of Jack.
This was when they figured outthat it was a hoax.
The letters, the tapes, it wasall sent in by this crackpot
that was looking to getpublicity.
Courtney (11:26):
Oh my God.
So it wasn't even the personwho was doing it.
Cousin Marc (11:29):
No, so the police were all going down one avenue
and it wasn't even the right one.
Courtney (11:34):
And that's so sad too too, because there was probably
so much money and manpower andall of those resources were
dumped into this one.
Cousin Marc (11:42):
Oh yeah, billions of dollars, oh god that's a lot,
that's a that's a lot of spacepalm.
Courtney (11:48):
Moment yeah, thanks, asshole right, maybe he paid him
20 bucks to do it, yeah.
Cousin Marc (11:55):
Yeah, he might have A five pound note.
Courtney (11:58):
Right, that's true.
Yeah, england, he better bringthe change, though, right.
Cousin Marc (12:02):
That's right.
So Maureen Leah was a lecturerat the University of
Bedfordshire and she wasappalled that she was thought of
as a prostitute, because heended up attacking her.
Hannah (12:17):
Well, I could see why she'd be pissed about that.
Courtney (12:19):
Yeah, I'd be more pissed that he attacked me, but
yeah.
Cousin Marc (12:22):
And she survived, and she just was beside herself
that I'm a college professorworking on things and you think
I'm a prostitute, to kind oftake me out.
Courtney (12:33):
Maybe she was a threat to something he was trying to
do on the back end.
Cousin Marc (12:36):
Yeah, very possible .
Was there an a threat tosomething he was trying to do on
the back end?
Yeah, very possible.
Hannah (12:38):
Was there an age range to these women at all?
I was just going to ask that.
Cousin Marc (12:41):
In my notes I have all the ages down.
The youngest one I think was 16.
Oh, wow, okay, was it 16 or 12?
Courtney (12:49):
Oh geez, that's pretty young Either way 16.
Cousin Marc (12:52):
The youngest one was 16.
I think the oldest one was 41.
Most of his attacks were justopportunity.
Hannah (13:02):
And this isn't grandma he's attacking either.
Cousin Marc (13:05):
No, most likely he had his girlfriend that was
cheating on him, which was young, and then his mother, who was
older, was cheating on herfather.
So he looked like he wastargeting women cheating on her
father, you know.
So he was looked like he wastargeting women in those age
groups In November of 80, so wejust went over a year before he
(13:28):
attacks again.
He was attacked on a Mondaynight and the police found a
bloody handbag on Monday, butnothing else.
On Tuesday a passerby found heronly 60 yards from the handbag.
Courtney (13:39):
Looked really, hard, I guess.
Cousin Marc (13:41):
Yeah, and the public again was really pissed
that the police just dropped theball on that one, right?
So guess what the police do?
Uh-oh, they put a curfew on thewomen.
So this man's killing thesewomen and the women that are out
there are being segregated.
Courtney (14:01):
Wouldn't that have made more sense to put a curfew
on the men?
I?
Know, why are they penalizingus, the people who are killing
at home or what?
Hannah (14:09):
Now he knows they're all at home.
Courtney (14:10):
You can just break into any house and there's
probably a woman there, jeezum.
Cousin Marc (14:14):
They organized a march that night that they did
that and all of them were allpast the curfew Hell yeah, the
women were pissed.
Courtney (14:26):
I'm pissed and it happened now, right.
They didn't mention anythingabout burning bras, so Well, I
guess that was a fight for adifferent time.
It was a fight for a differenttime yeah.
Free the nipple later.
Cousin Marc (14:41):
They had to free themselves first yeah, we gotta
make sure we can get out to freethe nipple exactly exactly free
the women.
Then the nipple got it free thewomen, then free the girls a
new t-shirt for cousin mark free, mark Free the world for you.
Hannah (14:58):
Free the girls I'm going to work on the Canva after this
.
Well now I know.
I'm going to do it too, and I'mnot going to send it before
we're both ready.
Cousin Marc (15:11):
Now we get interesting.
In January of 81, a policeofficer spots a man with a
female in the car and he runsthe plates and finds out that
they don't match the car thatthey're on.
Courtney (15:24):
He did a switcheroo.
Cousin Marc (15:26):
So, again, trying to be inconspicuous, you do one
of the biggest things that justbrings a red flag to you.
Courtney (15:34):
Right, you're better off just keeping the plates that
were on the car on the car andnot doing anything sketchy.
Hannah (15:39):
Right, because what was the other?
Case we did with you CousinMark, where he just didn't have
a plate at all and he had thebody in the trunk.
Cousin Marc (15:45):
That was Joel Rifkin.
Yeah, yeah.
Courtney (15:47):
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (15:49):
He's like gee, let me take the plate off and the
police won't notice me.
Courtney (15:52):
No, no, they'll notice you twice as much.
Cousin Marc (15:55):
But that's the thing and that's how they caught
Bundy.
Bundy was driving erratically.
The cop pulled him over for aDUI Right.
It's not any smart police work,no, it's just being at the
right place and getting theright person.
Courtney (16:10):
Luck of the draw and doing your job correctly.
Cousin Marc (16:12):
That's it.
Yeah, he's got them detained.
So the guy that's there.
He says I need to relievemyself.
So the officer allows him to gooff to the side of the road to
relieve himself, which is wherehe threw the hammer and the
screwdriver that was in hispockets.
Oh my.
Hannah (16:28):
God, Do you know how many cops episodes I watch now
they're like who are you goingto pick?
We'll talk about that in aminute.
Courtney (16:36):
Like or a cigarette?
We oh, I want a pee, yeah,we'll talk about that in a
minute.
Or a cigarette?
We'll talk about that in aminute.
Or at least just go standnearby so if they drop something
, you'll hear it.
You don't have to watch, butyou'll be able to hear.
Hannah (16:42):
Well, I understand if they're trying to give the man
dignity on his own, but likeyeah, but you're looking at him
for something suspicious.
Cousin Marc (16:50):
So I feel like he had him in front of you like
this and you just pull it out ofyour jacket and toss it.
It's like when you were kids.
Courtney (17:00):
How big was this man?
He's got tools in his pockets.
He was just happy to see him.
Right, exactly, there'sHannah's sticker.
It'll be a hammer coming out ofa pair of pants that says just
happy to see you, it's like theflasher Hi.
Cousin Marc (17:18):
So the officer arrests both of them for
solicitation and everything likethat.
So he brings him in and he justso happens to look up at the
artist sketch that was in thepolice precinct.
He goes wait a second, this guylooks exactly like that and
you'd figure with everythingthat they got going on trying to
find this guy, the officerwould have been a little more
(17:40):
diligent.
Yeah, knowing that he looks likesomebody, oh man, it makes no
sense.
You know, even back then itdoesn't even look like people
had common sense then either.
But the officer eventuallyrealizes that while he's there,
so they have him, he goes.
Wait a second, I let that guygo relieve himself, I'm going
(18:06):
back there to sweep the area.
And that's when he ended upfinding the hammer and the
screwdriver and realized who hehad.
He had Peter Williams Sutcliffe, 35 years old, and while he was
in custody gave a detailedconfession.
Oh, just came right out and youguys are not going to believe
(18:29):
this story, I have to tell you.
And he just off, he goes.
Hannah (18:33):
Oh God, okay, I wasn't expecting that, yeah no, that
took a very hard right there.
Cousin Marc (18:40):
Oh, he did not give up any fight at all, just a big
wuss.
Hannah (18:46):
Just a big wuss.
Just a big wuss.
Cousin Marc (18:49):
Yeah, folded like a change lounge.
Courtney (18:54):
The puns.
The puns are great.
Like I don't know what to say.
I feel like that's like so,like you're like building and
building, and then it's likethen he gave up anti-climatic
yeah yeah, listen, I don't tellthe story.
Cousin Marc (19:10):
This story's already been told.
Courtney (19:12):
I'm just you're just telling me when.
Yeah that's it.
Hannah (19:16):
You're saying you have no control how the Yorkshire
Ripper ended.
Cousin Marc (19:19):
No man, but I do know he pled guilty to 13 counts
of manslaughter by reason ofinsanity.
Courtney (19:26):
Ah, he was going for the insanity part.
Cousin Marc (19:29):
He figured if he was insane he'd go to asylum and
, you know, live out the rest ofhis life in comfort I mean
honestly During that time.
As you know, live out the restof his life in comfort.
Hannah (19:37):
I mean honestly, during that time, Asylum's worse.
Courtney (19:38):
Yeah, I don't know that, an asylum versus prison, I
would take asylum.
I think I would have takenprison at that time.
Cousin Marc (19:43):
He ended up taking the stand in his own defense,
but it really didn't help himout that much.
Hannah (19:48):
Okay, what is with these guys defending themselves,
taking the stand by themselves?
Courtney (19:52):
That's the insane part for me.
That's the insane part for me.
That's where I'm like ohthere's insanity right there.
Cousin Marc (19:56):
Well, three psychologists came to the
conclusion of he was a paranoidschizophrenic, but his wife had
suffered from it, so he knew allthe symptoms.
Courtney (20:08):
He knew how to show all the signs that that's what
he was doing.
Hannah (20:10):
Well, that's an interesting point.
Exactly, I don't have ADHD, butI know Rob has ADHD.
I could manifest as having ADHDeasily for a little while.
Courtney (20:21):
I mean, and ADHD is one of those things that looks
different in men and women.
But, like you're friends withme and you see how mine looks.
Hannah (20:26):
You could just copy what I do and be like.
Courtney (20:29):
OK, now I've got ADHD.
Yeah, interesting.
Cousin Marc (20:32):
So the jury had to decide if he was crazy or if he
was faking it.
Courtney (20:36):
Oh man, that's got to be hard.
Yeah, I don't even know.
Cousin Marc (20:38):
They ended up figuring out that he was sane
and he got a minimum of 30 years, which that drives me nuts.
You know you killed all thesepeople 30 years, ok yeah.
And you get a minimum of 30years and then you're up for
parole.
Courtney (20:54):
Right, yeah, you shouldn't be getting parole, and
then you're up for parole,right?
Cousin Marc (20:56):
Yeah, you shouldn't be a gang girl.
Their laws over there just makeno sense to me.
Courtney (21:00):
Yeah, then you're thinking like what never makes
sense to me when there's, like,you see, there's 13 people that
he pled guilty to.
How many years per person'slife are we talking?
Hannah (21:11):
What's right?
Courtney (21:11):
That's like how can you put a year?
It's like two years and a monthfor each person.
And that's what somebody's lifeequates out to human life
equates out to two years and amonth of imprisonment.
Cousin Marc (21:24):
Yeah, yeah, well, see, what I would do is I would
take their age, okay, and thenwhat would be their life
expectancy?
Yeah, and how old do you thinkthey could live to?
And then those are the yearsthat you get for each person.
Courtney (21:39):
I think that makes sense.
I actually would vote in favorof that.
Cousin Marc (21:43):
You know, if you kill a 14 year old like Dharma,
did you know that 14 year oldcould have lived till he was 70.
?
Courtney (21:49):
You took a lot of life from somebody, so someone
should take a lot of life fromyou.
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (21:53):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think you should have free.
You should have even even thethought that you could get out.
Yeah, you shouldn't have yeah,that whole piece, I agree after
he was found guilty and thingswere moving on, the police that
were working on all this, allthe head investigators and
(22:14):
everything like that they allgot demoted.
Oh shit, they were given lesserjobs because they clearly did
not know what the hell they weredoing in this investigation
that kind of sucks.
Courtney (22:25):
But I mean oh well, yeah, more botched police work.
Cousin Marc (22:29):
Yeah, my episode was all about it too, it's just
yeah, it's not like being aweather person here in the
united states, where you can getthe weather wrong and you know,
oh well we'll wake up tomorrowand see what it looks like.
Right, she was found guilty inmay of 81.
In march of 84 he was moved toan asylum.
Oh, because he basically justwent nuts being in prison.
Courtney (22:56):
All the confinement.
Cousin Marc (22:58):
Yeah.
So they ended up moving on, orhe was pretending again.
Well, they obviously thoughtthere was enough to move him.
That's true.
Then, in November of 92, heconfessed to two more attacks
that the women survived, andthey didn't even charge him.
Hannah (23:13):
But like.
What was the point in that?
Cousin Marc (23:15):
Because he again again looking for attention.
So I come out and I say I didthis.
Courtney (23:22):
Now everybody's looking at me again right, yeah,
and it was just as people arestarting to forget about who he
was and what he did.
Cousin Marc (23:27):
Yeah and there was no sense in charge of him
because he was already in prison.
Courtney (23:33):
So unfortunately that's a tough part that sucks
because, especially for twowomen who survived it, yeah,
there's no justice for thosepeople.
They didn't get their moment toconfront that situation head-on
and come to peace forthemselves because the person
who did it to them receivedjustice but that happens all the
time it does.
It just sucks maybe that's myinner woman just being like.
I see how often that happens towomen and they don't get that
(23:56):
moment to confront theirattacker if they choose to.
Cousin Marc (23:59):
Yeah, yeah.
And then in 94, he confessed tokilling Marguerite Walls, which
brought his total to 13.
And they didn't even know thathe had killed her either.
Courtney (24:10):
Did he have to go back to trial for that one, or did
they just shrug no, I don'tthink no, they didn't do
anything.
Oh, that poor family.
Cousin Marc (24:19):
But it does have a happy ending, though.
For who?
Because he did die.
He did die in November of 2020due to COVID complications.
Courtney (24:30):
Well, bye for now.
Yeah, and I don't love the ideaof anybody dying, but but he
only served 13 years before hedied.
So that's really not that long.
Cousin Marc (24:43):
No, it's not.
Courtney (24:43):
And he only served a few years before he was sent to
the asylum.
Cousin Marc (24:46):
so yes, yep, but that was William Sutcliffe.
Courtney (24:51):
Jeez, I guess my final reflection is that I can't end
the episode with the same wayyou started the last one.
I guess my final reflection isthat I can't end the episode
with the same way you startedthe last one.
I don't think he's a finegentleman, no.
Cousin Marc (25:02):
No.
Courtney (25:02):
Coward, maybe Douche canoes for certain.
Cousin Marc (25:06):
Yes, big douche canoe Definitely a douche canoe.
Courtney (25:08):
Huge douche, canoe, both paddles.
Cousin Marc (25:12):
But that you know, like I said in the beginning of
this show, that's what peoplelook like.
You don't expect them to looklike a pleasant person.
You know when they're doingmonstrous things.
You expect them to look like amonster.
Courtney (25:24):
Yeah, A very wise woman told me when I was maybe
18 years old the people who lookthe most put together are the
most fucked up and you should becautious of them.
Oh yeah, and that has livedtrue in my head ever since it
was said to me.
Cousin Marc (25:40):
Most of the nicest people are covered in tattoos.
Courtney (25:43):
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (25:43):
And the most judgmental and the most
judgmental people go to churchevery day.
Hannah (25:49):
A hundred percent agree with you on that, cousin.
Courtney (25:53):
The context that I was having with this person was
more about the families thatjudge and they throw stones from
a glass house where they'relike look at my perfect family
with the white picket fence.
She's like when you're lookingat those people in their perfect
house with their perfect life.
There's a mountain of crapunderneath all of that.
Cousin Marc (26:09):
Like my mother says , you never know what happens
behind closed doors 100% you go,Auntie Bernie.
Courtney (26:15):
Now we have to have that.
Auntie Bernie has to come now.
Hannah (26:18):
I love Auntie Bernie.
She cracks me up.
Yeah, she's a good egg.
Are we ready for a card?
We have to do pick a card, anycard.
I already picked one.
Are we good?
Courtney (26:33):
All right, are you going to send it to Cousin Mark?
Cousin Marc (26:34):
so he can read it.
No, she can read it.
Courtney (26:35):
Go ahead oh good, because she's doing gasp face.
Hannah (26:38):
Okay, all right, I'm weird, I understand.
I'm weird Like I have thispodcast.
I'm weird, we're all weird.
We're very weird, I'm shufflingthrough this deck and I'm like
I have like this feeling I Ijust keep going, I keep going, I
keep going, I keep going and Ijust pick one Holly.
Cousin Marc (26:53):
Is this your next door neighbor?
Courtney (26:55):
No no God, oh my God, that's who I was thinking about
doing an episode on Two ofHearts.
Hannah (27:01):
Holly Piernan.
Do you know about Holly Piernan?
Cousin Marc (27:05):
No.
Hannah (27:05):
Okay, so it wasn't like an out west here case.
It's actually one of thereasons why my mom like freaked
out when we would play outsideis because of holly piernan.
All right, so two of hearts,holly piernan.
On august 5th 1993, 10 year oldholly piernan was reported
missing from surbridge onoctober 23rd 1993.
Her remains were found in awooded area in brimfield.
(27:26):
If you have any info about thiscase, please call
1-855-MA-Solve.
Courtney (27:32):
I just listened to a podcast about her this week
because I was thinking aboutmaking an episode, because her
name will come up a lot whenyou're talking about Lewis Lent
Her name will come up.
When you're talking about thedisappearance of Molly Bish, her
name will come up.
So there's a lot of people thatthey've suspected are connected
(27:52):
with Holly, but there's neverreally anything beyond that.
So that's one of the ones thatthey've suspected are connected
with, yeah, holly, but there'snever really any thing beyond
that.
So that's one of the ones thatI've been diving down that
rabbit hole.
So that's super weird thatthat's the card that you pulled.
It's almost like the time wepulled lynn, I know what I was
talking about.
Hannah (28:04):
Lynn, did you just have like a feeling in the deck?
I had a feeling in the deckweird.
Courtney (28:09):
I wish there wasn't a deck of missing people from
massachusetts, I know I two.
Rob (28:13):
I know there's another volume they're coming out with.
Courtney (28:15):
But I I really just love the idea that they did the
playing cards to put them intothe jails to see if people would
talk about the cases.
I mean, it's a if you wandershaven't seen.
I mean, obviously we pull acard every time, but if you
missed the part where we talkedabout it a way to hopefully get
prisoners in jails to talk aboutanything they might know for
leads in the cases I believe youcan get them if you just go on
(28:37):
Google.
Hannah (28:38):
You can usually type in.
Oh yeah, but these are from2021.
Courtney (28:40):
Yeah, there's a new volume.
There's a new volume, I waslooking at yeah, they're from.
Hannah (28:44):
oh, they do get them mail at Framingham.
Cousin Marc (28:48):
Plus Ashley Flowers does the deck.
She does episodes on all thecards that she has.
Courtney (28:56):
We were looking at getting in the Connecticut deck
next, I think, spreading thewealth around to some other
places too, especially NewEngland I feel like that's.
Cousin Marc (29:05):
The other show that I had listened to before was
Dark Down East, and she's basedout of Maine and does all of New
England.
Courtney (29:15):
I've listened to a few different podcasts.
It's funny because when you'relooking up like particular
subjects, I find like whenyou're looking at like when I
was looking at the babysitter, Iwas getting all one area, and
then, like when I was looking atthe one on Cape Cod, I kept
getting all one area.
So it's kind of funny how weall kind of gravitate to like
doing the most about what's nearto us.
Cousin Marc (29:33):
yeah, yeah proximity based, all right.
Well, if we can get some of thelisteners to throw out a
suggestion to me about my nextepisode, maybe they can do that.
Courtney (29:43):
We'll see what happens you have ideas for what you
want, or do you want just atotally random write-in?
Cousin Marc (29:49):
no, probably someone serial killerish well,
why don't?
Courtney (29:52):
okay, let's do it this way you come up with three
names that you were thinking youmight want to do, and I'll put
a poll up on Instagram and we'llget them to vote on what one
you do next.
Cousin Marc (30:03):
Okay, that sounds pretty good.
Courtney (30:04):
Is something on fire.
I'm sorry, cousin Mark.
No, no, I can smell somethingburning Burning, yes, I smell a
burning smell burning smell.
Well, there's candles on.
It's like when you leave theiron on.
It's like when you leave theiron on something too long.
Yes, oh my God, is there a fire?
Hey, hang on, there's a fire.
Cousin Marc (30:24):
Oh boy, don't burn the house down.
Courtney (30:26):
I'm getting water, I'm getting water.
Cousin Marc (30:29):
Holy shit people.
They're talking about gettingwater and throwing water on.
Hopefully, everything's okay.
I don't know if I should put iton the top or.
Oh God, okay, that was just abig flash.
Hannah (30:44):
Pull me out and I'm just going to splash water in that
direction.
I'm so sorry.
Okay, hold on.
Okay, back up.
Okay, ready?
Are you ready?
I think so.
Oh my God.
Okay, we Are you ready?
I think so?
Oh my god.
Okay, we can't do that again.
How are we gonna put that out?
Cover it Back up, back up.
Courtney (31:06):
Uncle Mark is yelling.
We're good, cousin Mark, we'regood, oh my god, holy shit,
we're good.
Cousin Marc (31:20):
Holy shit, is it good?
Someone almost burned down theWicked Wandering studio.
Rob (31:27):
I hear something is burning .
Hannah (31:31):
Okay, okay, okay.
Courtney (31:33):
The best.
Okay, okay, the best part isthat was all recording.
Hannah (31:38):
Oh my God, we're good.
Okay, oh boy, we do have to goclean up a mess though.
Cousin Marc (31:46):
That's okay.
I've been sitting here doing aplay by play.
Next time there's a kitchenfire, cover it with something.
Courtney (31:53):
Yeah, we were trying to do that, but it was really
hot and it was in the bedroom.
It was a candle.
Cousin Marc (31:59):
Oh, my God.
Hannah (32:00):
Well, we figured it out, Okay.
Well, we love you, bye.
Courtney (32:07):
What was in it that was making it do that?
I don't know, Because normallywhen you toss water on a candle
it goes out.
I'm glad you stopped it.
Hannah (32:14):
Why, if I stopped it, I feel awful.
I just threw water at her.
No, no, it's fine, I'd ratherkeep my house.
You want more towels, maybe atowel wipe you can put on.
Hold on, let me get that out ofhere and use it in the sink.
Courtney (32:28):
Yeah, because there's got to be something in that
candle that when you put wateron it Because I had a candle, do
that to me on the stove onceand I did the same thing.
Hannah (32:35):
I did it and it went one little burst and then it went
out, so I didn't want you to getclose to the end of it, dear
God.
Okay, I was like no, no, no, no, we're still recording.
Oh, thanks for listening today.
Rob (32:55):
Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me Hannah and co-hosted by
me Courtney.
Hannah (32:57):
And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick, music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review, and be sure tofollow on all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
That sounds pretty good.
Courtney (00:01):
Is something on fire.
I'm sorry, cousin Mark.
No, no, I can smell somethingburning.
Burning, yes, I smell a burning.
Smell.
Well, there's candles on.
It's like when you leave theiron on.
It's like when you leave theiron on for too long.
Yes, oh, my God.
Cousin Marc (00:17):
The kitchen's on fire.
Courtney (00:18):
Is there a fire?
Hey, hang on, there's a fire.
Cousin Marc (00:24):
Oh boy, Don't burn the house down.
Courtney (00:25):
I'm getting water, I'm getting water.
Cousin Marc (00:29):
Holy shit people.
They're talking about gettingwater and throwing water on.
Hopefully, everything's okay.
I don't know if I should put iton the top or.
Oh God, okay, okay, that wasjust a big flash.
Rob (00:45):
Okay.
Hannah (00:56):
Hi, I'm Hannah and I'm Courtney.
Courtney (01:02):
Join us as we delve into true crime, paranormal
encounters and all things spooky, Grab your flashlight and get
ready to wander into thedarkness with us.
Hannah (01:08):
This is Wicked Wanderings.
Hello Courtney, hi Hannah andhello Mark.
Cousin Marc (01:31):
Welcome back here in the virtual flesh.
In the virtual flesh.
Courtney (01:34):
We are here for part two of Mark's episode.
So if you haven't listened tolast week's episode, make sure
you go back and listen to thatone first, so you don't miss any
of the details.
There you go, Trust me.
Hannah (01:43):
Last week's episode was really interesting.
Courtney (01:45):
You don't want to miss it.
Cousin Marc (01:46):
No, no, you don't want to miss that.
This guy was quite thecharacter.
Although at first you did openby saying he was a nice
gentleman, this nice clean-cutgentleman.
But you know, I opened that waybecause that is exactly how he
looked.
He looked very presentable,nothing like a monster, and I'm
(02:08):
bringing him up just like Bundy.
Courtney (02:10):
Oh, five minutes and 50 seconds in, and Mark brings
up Bundy.
Hannah (02:15):
Love a good Bundy.
Cousin Marc (02:16):
That's it.
You look at these guys and theyreally don't look like they're
what they do.
Yep, that's what makes it soscary?
Courtney (02:24):
That's what makes it so scary, is it's what makes?
It so scary, is it's it's right, hiding in plain sight?
Yep, absolutely.
Cousin Marc (02:29):
And that brings us into part two, where he's
becoming more brazen and he'slooking for publicity.
Courtney (02:37):
Okay, you got me hooked.
I'm interested.
Cousin Marc (02:39):
Yeah, just like.
Um, just like BTK did when heyou know writes a letter to the
editor of the newspaper and sayshow many people do I have to
kill before I get anyrecognition?
Hannah (02:52):
Look at me, look at me.
Cousin Marc (02:53):
That's it.
That's how these people are.
They're only looking forthemselves and their own
gratification.
Courtney (02:59):
Attention.
Motivated function attention.
Cousin Marc (03:01):
That's right.
So, with him looking to be inthe spotlight, the police are
making a plea to get him to turnhimself in.
Obviously, you know thatdoesn't happen Right At this
point.
There now starts a series ofletters that were written and
sent to the police office.
They were sent to the lab tosee if they could get any
(03:21):
biological things off of it, andone of the things that they had
found was that the person whowrote the letter was a bee
secretor, so they had the bloodmixed with the semen when things
like that happened, which only6% of men have it.
Courtney (03:36):
Wait, wait, wait a minute.
We've had that conversationbefore on a different episode.
I think too.
Yeah, maybe it was.
Hannah (03:45):
I think I also found it when I was doing the Babysitter.
Can someone please remind meabout that conversation?
Courtney (03:48):
Hannah might have been three sheets, to the wind maybe
four Listen.
Rob (03:51):
Maybe, seven.
Courtney (03:52):
Listen, we did.
We had that conversation abouthow only a certain percentage of
men have that and that wasanother case.
We were talking about that.
That was how they determinedthat that was somebody they were
looking at, because they fitthat profile as well.
Cousin Marc (04:07):
Yeah, and back then , at this time, that was the
only thing they could do wasanalyze blood types and whatnot.
After the letter showed up,there was a cassette tape that
he was using to taunt the police, of course, throwing things out
there and saying differentthings about how you're not
going to catch me and this, andthat Almost like the Jack the
(04:29):
Ripper letters that was sentduring that time, the Dear Boss
letters.
Hannah (04:34):
I always feel like these are the kids that were like,
that were really good at tagYou're not going to catch me.
You're not going to catch me.
Courtney (04:41):
So was he using his actual voice on the cassette or
was he like misconstruing?
Cousin Marc (04:46):
it.
Courtney (04:46):
He was Very, very ballsy, I figured because he was
attention seeking, that it waslike I'm hiding right in plain
sight.
I don't even have to doanything to hide it.
Cousin Marc (04:55):
That's it.
We come to this point where,april of 79, he takes the life
of 19 year old JosephineWhitaker.
He takes the life of19-year-old Josephine Whitaker
this is the one that we hadtalked about before where he had
her helping look at the vehiclebecause the vehicle wouldn't
start.
Why is it?
He ended up killing her whenshe was looking under the hood
(05:17):
and he dragged her out into afield.
Courtney (05:19):
Right, that's right.
We did talk about that.
Cousin Marc (05:22):
Yeah, she wasn't a prostitute.
The drag marks indicated shewas attacked at the road and was
dragged into the field.
He was not a prostitute.
So that showed everybody thatall women were at risk.
Right, because the police atthis time were watching the red
light district and he knew thatthey were doing this For him to
(05:44):
go find a prostitute and do histhing.
Hannah (05:46):
He was changing his actions up to throw him off was
it now that they just might havelooked a little alluring and
then he just assumed she was aprostitute?
Or is he just changing his molike totally?
Does anyone speculate?
Courtney (06:00):
or he's changing it because he's trying to see how
far he can push the police.
That's what it sounds like he'sdescribed.
Cousin Marc (06:07):
Yes, plus, it was all, as we were getting into it
last week, was the fact that hehated women.
Hannah (06:13):
Right yeah.
Cousin Marc (06:14):
Because he had the issue with his mother cheating
on his father, and his fathershowed him everything.
It started off with prostitutesbecause they were easy targets.
Then he just started grabbingpeople off the street.
Courtney (06:25):
And prostitutes have the sex work piece as well.
So it's probably easier in hisbrain to say like women are, you
know, whatever the thing hethinks about their sexual acts.
And then he finds women who dothat for work, and I'm sure that
that's an easy, easygeneralization for him to make.
Cousin Marc (06:41):
Yeah, a couple of letters were still coming in.
The police still had the audiotapes for him to make.
Yeah, a couple of letters werestill coming in.
The police still had the audiotapes.
They had a stamp on theenvelope from the post office
and a voice that had an accentthat narrowed where he could be
from.
Hannah (06:56):
Let me guess Yorkshire.
Cousin Marc (06:57):
Oh it was.
It was like a.
I think they said it was like aCockney accent.
Hannah (07:03):
Oh, okay.
Cousin Marc (07:04):
Which was in a different part of England.
Hannah (07:07):
It's amazing, just for such a small part of a continent
, how their accents do change.
Courtney (07:12):
It really is amazing.
I mean, ours are kind of likethat too, yeah but America's
huge.
Hannah (07:17):
America's huge, though.
Listen to Mark talk.
Cousin Marc (07:19):
Yeah, but you guys are out there with your accent
and then I'm out here with theBoston accent.
Courtney (07:24):
Do we have an accent?
We do we have an accent.
Cousin Marc (07:28):
Yeah, yours is more Connecticut-based.
Hannah (07:30):
Ew what no one likes Connecticut.
Cousin Marc (07:33):
I know that, but I didn't say New York, so Does
mine sound like dragons.
Hannah (07:38):
Where the dragons are from.
Courtney (07:40):
I don't know if he knows that story, Does he?
I can't.
So when I went to college aquick segue I went to Maine for
two years and then I went toWorcester State for my last two
years, and so when I moved intoWorcester State, my dad's
helping me move my stuff in andsomebody.
My dad will talk to anybody.
He's like the mayor of everyplace he's ever been, so
somebody said oh, where are youfrom?
(08:00):
And he was like the Berkshires.
And they immediately were like,oh, where the dragons are.
And he was like, uh, sure, Iguess.
And then every person who askedus for the rest of that day we
got in the truck.
He's like what the fuck do theymean where the dragons are?
And we never understood.
Hannah (08:12):
People sometimes will still say it to me and I'm like
I don't know what that meansyeah, like I've never heard that
it's very odd, and people inworcester area seem to be the
ones that do it, and I'm likeyou know you're really not that
far from Western Mass right, atleast from this section of
Western Mass, like the lowerpart of Western Mass, I know
(08:33):
everyone will call North Adamsand up like the armpit of
Massachusetts, which isn'tlovely at all.
I'm a dragon loving armpit.
Cousin Marc (08:44):
I've always said about Massachusetts, it's got
that little bump on the bottompart of the state above
Connecticut.
Hannah (08:50):
Yeah, yeah, I actually have the tattoo, so it's got
that little bump right there,spring-filly Salmonella dips,
yeah, dips it, yeah yeah.
Rob (08:59):
Hi there, Rob, here from the future editing this lovely
podcast.
I just wanted to come on hereand give you a quick correction.
That little part that dips downinto Connecticut is actually
Southwick Massachusetts, and infact in the 1800s there was a
war between Connecticut andMassachusetts for that parcel of
(09:22):
land.
And now back to the podcast.
Cousin Marc (09:26):
That is the little tab that holds it from sliding
into the ocean.
Courtney (09:31):
I mean, I do like to think we are the backbone.
Cousin Marc (09:35):
Yeah, we are, hey, we're all started right.
Courtney (09:38):
Sure, that's right All right, so back to the killing
Back to mid, the only contextyou can say that in
appropriately.
Cousin Marc (09:46):
That's it.
So this time he gets BarbaraLeach in September of 79.
So he's got a few months now.
He only had a short walk homebut she never made it.
That one was tough for mostpeople and it started to rile up
the public again.
The public was tryingeverything they could do to
protect the women and this iswhere it started to aggravate
(10:07):
the women of England.
They were told to go nowherewithout a male companion.
Courtney (10:12):
I would drive you nuts .
Cousin Marc (10:15):
And they're pissed off because that's who's doing.
This is the men.
Courtney (10:18):
Right yeah.
Cousin Marc (10:19):
You know there's a guy out there taking all this up
yeah, out there taking all thisup.
All this time the police formedProject R, a massive PR
campaign to get the publicengaged with finding the Ripper.
They did massive advertisingwith the Ripper's handwriting
for all of them to look at, andthen they were continuously
(10:41):
playing the tapes in differentplaces for them to hear the
voice.
And one of the investigatorswas reading the letters and he
actually made a connection withJack the Ripper.
Wait a minute, the way he waswriting the letters.
It was almost like the DearBoss letters were scripts for
(11:02):
him to write his letter.
Hannah (11:05):
Okay.
Cousin Marc (11:06):
The same way Jack the Ripper haunted the police
Like a glorifying of Jack.
This was when they figured outthat it was a hoax.
The letters, the tapes, it wasall sent in by this crackpot
that was looking to getpublicity.
Courtney (11:26):
Oh my God.
So it wasn't even the personwho was doing it.
Cousin Marc (11:29):
No, so the police were all going down one avenue
and it wasn't even the right one.
Courtney (11:34):
And that's so sad too too, because there was probably
so much money and manpower andall of those resources were
dumped into this one.
Cousin Marc (11:42):
Oh yeah, billions of dollars, oh god that's a lot,
that's a that's a lot of spacepalm.
Courtney (11:48):
Moment yeah, thanks, asshole right, maybe he paid him
20 bucks to do it, yeah.
Cousin Marc (11:55):
Yeah, he might have A five pound note.
Courtney (11:58):
Right, that's true.
Yeah, england, he better bringthe change, though, right.
Cousin Marc (12:02):
That's right.
So Maureen Leah was a lecturerat the University of
Bedfordshire and she wasappalled that she was thought of
as a prostitute, because heended up attacking her.
Hannah (12:17):
Well, I could see why she'd be pissed about that.
Courtney (12:19):
Yeah, I'd be more pissed that he attacked me, but
yeah.
Cousin Marc (12:22):
And she survived, and she just was beside herself
that I'm a college professorworking on things and you think
I'm a prostitute, to kind oftake me out.
Courtney (12:33):
Maybe she was a threat to something he was trying to
do on the back end.
Cousin Marc (12:36):
Yeah, very possible .
Was there an a threat tosomething he was trying to do on
the back end?
Yeah, very possible.
Hannah (12:38):
Was there an age range to these women at all?
I was just going to ask that.
Cousin Marc (12:41):
In my notes I have all the ages down.
The youngest one I think was 16.
Oh, wow, okay, was it 16 or 12?
Courtney (12:49):
Oh geez, that's pretty young Either way 16.
Cousin Marc (12:52):
The youngest one was 16.
I think the oldest one was 41.
Most of his attacks were justopportunity.
Hannah (13:02):
And this isn't grandma he's attacking either.
Cousin Marc (13:05):
No, most likely he had his girlfriend that was
cheating on him, which was young, and then his mother, who was
older, was cheating on herfather.
So he looked like he wastargeting women cheating on her
father, you know.
So he was looked like he wastargeting women in those age
groups In November of 80, so wejust went over a year before he
(13:28):
attacks again.
He was attacked on a Mondaynight and the police found a
bloody handbag on Monday, butnothing else.
On Tuesday a passerby found heronly 60 yards from the handbag.
Courtney (13:39):
Looked really, hard, I guess.
Cousin Marc (13:41):
Yeah, and the public again was really pissed
that the police just dropped theball on that one, right?
So guess what the police do?
Uh-oh, they put a curfew on thewomen.
So this man's killing thesewomen and the women that are out
there are being segregated.
Courtney (14:01):
Wouldn't that have made more sense to put a curfew
on the men?
I?
Know, why are they penalizingus, the people who are killing
at home or what?
Hannah (14:09):
Now he knows they're all at home.
Courtney (14:10):
You can just break into any house and there's
probably a woman there, jeezum.
Cousin Marc (14:14):
They organized a march that night that they did
that and all of them were allpast the curfew Hell yeah, the
women were pissed.
Courtney (14:26):
I'm pissed and it happened now, right.
They didn't mention anythingabout burning bras, so Well, I
guess that was a fight for adifferent time.
It was a fight for a differenttime yeah.
Free the nipple later.
Cousin Marc (14:41):
They had to free themselves first yeah, we gotta
make sure we can get out to freethe nipple exactly exactly free
the women.
Then the nipple got it free thewomen, then free the girls a
new t-shirt for cousin mark free, mark Free the world for you.
Hannah (14:58):
Free the girls I'm going to work on the Canva after this
.
Well now I know.
I'm going to do it too, and I'mnot going to send it before
we're both ready.
Cousin Marc (15:11):
Now we get interesting.
In January of 81, a policeofficer spots a man with a
female in the car and he runsthe plates and finds out that
they don't match the car thatthey're on.
Courtney (15:24):
He did a switcheroo.
Cousin Marc (15:26):
So, again, trying to be inconspicuous, you do one
of the biggest things that justbrings a red flag to you.
Courtney (15:34):
Right, you're better off just keeping the plates that
were on the car on the car andnot doing anything sketchy.
Hannah (15:39):
Right, because what was the other?
Case we did with you CousinMark, where he just didn't have
a plate at all and he had thebody in the trunk.
Cousin Marc (15:45):
That was Joel Rifkin.
Yeah, yeah.
Courtney (15:47):
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (15:49):
He's like gee, let me take the plate off and the
police won't notice me.
Courtney (15:52):
No, no, they'll notice you twice as much.
Cousin Marc (15:55):
But that's the thing and that's how they caught
Bundy.
Bundy was driving erratically.
The cop pulled him over for aDUI Right.
It's not any smart police work,no, it's just being at the
right place and getting theright person.
Courtney (16:10):
Luck of the draw and doing your job correctly.
Cousin Marc (16:12):
That's it.
Yeah, he's got them detained.
So the guy that's there.
He says I need to relievemyself.
So the officer allows him to gooff to the side of the road to
relieve himself, which is wherehe threw the hammer and the
screwdriver that was in hispockets.
Oh my.
Hannah (16:28):
God, Do you know how many cops episodes I watch now
they're like who are you goingto pick?
We'll talk about that in aminute.
Courtney (16:36):
Like or a cigarette?
We oh, I want a pee, yeah,we'll talk about that in a
minute.
Or a cigarette?
We'll talk about that in aminute.
Or at least just go standnearby so if they drop something
, you'll hear it.
You don't have to watch, butyou'll be able to hear.
Hannah (16:42):
Well, I understand if they're trying to give the man
dignity on his own, but likeyeah, but you're looking at him
for something suspicious.
Cousin Marc (16:50):
So I feel like he had him in front of you like
this and you just pull it out ofyour jacket and toss it.
It's like when you were kids.
Courtney (17:00):
How big was this man?
He's got tools in his pockets.
He was just happy to see him.
Right, exactly, there'sHannah's sticker.
It'll be a hammer coming out ofa pair of pants that says just
happy to see you, it's like theflasher Hi.
Cousin Marc (17:18):
So the officer arrests both of them for
solicitation and everything likethat.
So he brings him in and he justso happens to look up at the
artist sketch that was in thepolice precinct.
He goes wait a second, this guylooks exactly like that and
you'd figure with everythingthat they got going on trying to
find this guy, the officerwould have been a little more
(17:40):
diligent.
Yeah, knowing that he looks likesomebody, oh man, it makes no
sense.
You know, even back then itdoesn't even look like people
had common sense then either.
But the officer eventuallyrealizes that while he's there,
so they have him, he goes.
Wait a second, I let that guygo relieve himself, I'm going
(18:06):
back there to sweep the area.
And that's when he ended upfinding the hammer and the
screwdriver and realized who hehad.
He had Peter Williams Sutcliffe, 35 years old, and while he was
in custody gave a detailedconfession.
Oh, just came right out and youguys are not going to believe
(18:29):
this story, I have to tell you.
And he just off, he goes.
Hannah (18:33):
Oh God, okay, I wasn't expecting that, yeah no, that
took a very hard right there.
Cousin Marc (18:40):
Oh, he did not give up any fight at all, just a big
wuss.
Hannah (18:46):
Just a big wuss.
Just a big wuss.
Cousin Marc (18:49):
Yeah, folded like a change lounge.
Courtney (18:54):
The puns.
The puns are great.
Like I don't know what to say.
I feel like that's like so,like you're like building and
building, and then it's likethen he gave up anti-climatic
yeah yeah, listen, I don't tellthe story.
Cousin Marc (19:10):
This story's already been told.
Courtney (19:12):
I'm just you're just telling me when.
Yeah that's it.
Hannah (19:16):
You're saying you have no control how the Yorkshire
Ripper ended.
Cousin Marc (19:19):
No man, but I do know he pled guilty to 13 counts
of manslaughter by reason ofinsanity.
Courtney (19:26):
Ah, he was going for the insanity part.
Cousin Marc (19:29):
He figured if he was insane he'd go to asylum and
, you know, live out the rest ofhis life in comfort I mean
honestly During that time.
As you know, live out the restof his life in comfort.
Hannah (19:37):
I mean honestly, during that time, Asylum's worse.
Courtney (19:38):
Yeah, I don't know that, an asylum versus prison, I
would take asylum.
I think I would have takenprison at that time.
Cousin Marc (19:43):
He ended up taking the stand in his own defense,
but it really didn't help himout that much.
Hannah (19:48):
Okay, what is with these guys defending themselves,
taking the stand by themselves?
Courtney (19:52):
That's the insane part for me.
That's the insane part for me.
That's where I'm like ohthere's insanity right there.
Cousin Marc (19:56):
Well, three psychologists came to the
conclusion of he was a paranoidschizophrenic, but his wife had
suffered from it, so he knew allthe symptoms.
Courtney (20:08):
He knew how to show all the signs that that's what
he was doing.
Hannah (20:10):
Well, that's an interesting point.
Exactly, I don't have ADHD, butI know Rob has ADHD.
I could manifest as having ADHDeasily for a little while.
Courtney (20:21):
I mean, and ADHD is one of those things that looks
different in men and women.
But, like you're friends withme and you see how mine looks.
Hannah (20:26):
You could just copy what I do and be like.
Courtney (20:29):
OK, now I've got ADHD.
Yeah, interesting.
Cousin Marc (20:32):
So the jury had to decide if he was crazy or if he
was faking it.
Courtney (20:36):
Oh man, that's got to be hard.
Yeah, I don't even know.
Cousin Marc (20:38):
They ended up figuring out that he was sane
and he got a minimum of 30 years, which that drives me nuts.
You know you killed all thesepeople 30 years, ok yeah.
And you get a minimum of 30years and then you're up for
parole.
Courtney (20:54):
Right, yeah, you shouldn't be getting parole, and
then you're up for parole,right?
Cousin Marc (20:56):
Yeah, you shouldn't be a gang girl.
Their laws over there just makeno sense to me.
Courtney (21:00):
Yeah, then you're thinking like what never makes
sense to me when there's, like,you see, there's 13 people that
he pled guilty to.
How many years per person'slife are we talking?
Hannah (21:11):
What's right?
Courtney (21:11):
That's like how can you put a year?
It's like two years and a monthfor each person.
And that's what somebody's lifeequates out to human life
equates out to two years and amonth of imprisonment.
Cousin Marc (21:24):
Yeah, yeah, well, see, what I would do is I would
take their age, okay, and thenwhat would be their life
expectancy?
Yeah, and how old do you thinkthey could live to?
And then those are the yearsthat you get for each person.
Courtney (21:39):
I think that makes sense.
I actually would vote in favorof that.
Cousin Marc (21:43):
You know, if you kill a 14 year old like Dharma,
did you know that 14 year oldcould have lived till he was 70.
?
Courtney (21:49):
You took a lot of life from somebody, so someone
should take a lot of life fromyou.
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (21:53):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think you should have free.
You should have even even thethought that you could get out.
Yeah, you shouldn't have yeah,that whole piece, I agree after
he was found guilty and thingswere moving on, the police that
were working on all this, allthe head investigators and
(22:14):
everything like that they allgot demoted.
Oh shit, they were given lesserjobs because they clearly did
not know what the hell they weredoing in this investigation
that kind of sucks.
Courtney (22:25):
But I mean oh well, yeah, more botched police work.
Cousin Marc (22:29):
Yeah, my episode was all about it too, it's just
yeah, it's not like being aweather person here in the
united states, where you can getthe weather wrong and you know,
oh well we'll wake up tomorrowand see what it looks like.
Right, she was found guilty inmay of 81.
In march of 84 he was moved toan asylum.
Oh, because he basically justwent nuts being in prison.
Courtney (22:56):
All the confinement.
Cousin Marc (22:58):
Yeah.
So they ended up moving on, orhe was pretending again.
Well, they obviously thoughtthere was enough to move him.
That's true.
Then, in November of 92, heconfessed to two more attacks
that the women survived, andthey didn't even charge him.
Hannah (23:13):
But like.
What was the point in that?
Cousin Marc (23:15):
Because he again again looking for attention.
So I come out and I say I didthis.
Courtney (23:22):
Now everybody's looking at me again right, yeah,
and it was just as people arestarting to forget about who he
was and what he did.
Cousin Marc (23:27):
Yeah and there was no sense in charge of him
because he was already in prison.
Courtney (23:33):
So unfortunately that's a tough part that sucks
because, especially for twowomen who survived it, yeah,
there's no justice for thosepeople.
They didn't get their moment toconfront that situation head-on
and come to peace forthemselves because the person
who did it to them receivedjustice but that happens all the
time it does.
It just sucks maybe that's myinner woman just being like.
I see how often that happens towomen and they don't get that
(23:56):
moment to confront theirattacker if they choose to.
Cousin Marc (23:59):
Yeah, yeah.
And then in 94, he confessed tokilling Marguerite Walls, which
brought his total to 13.
And they didn't even know thathe had killed her either.
Courtney (24:10):
Did he have to go back to trial for that one, or did
they just shrug no, I don'tthink no, they didn't do
anything.
Oh, that poor family.
Cousin Marc (24:19):
But it does have a happy ending, though.
For who?
Because he did die.
He did die in November of 2020due to COVID complications.
Courtney (24:30):
Well, bye for now.
Yeah, and I don't love the ideaof anybody dying, but but he
only served 13 years before hedied.
So that's really not that long.
Cousin Marc (24:43):
No, it's not.
Courtney (24:43):
And he only served a few years before he was sent to
the asylum.
Cousin Marc (24:46):
so yes, yep, but that was William Sutcliffe.
Courtney (24:51):
Jeez, I guess my final reflection is that I can't end
the episode with the same wayyou started the last one.
I guess my final reflection isthat I can't end the episode
with the same way you startedthe last one.
I don't think he's a finegentleman, no.
Cousin Marc (25:02):
No.
Courtney (25:02):
Coward, maybe Douche canoes for certain.
Cousin Marc (25:06):
Yes, big douche canoe Definitely a douche canoe.
Courtney (25:08):
Huge douche, canoe, both paddles.
Cousin Marc (25:12):
But that you know, like I said in the beginning of
this show, that's what peoplelook like.
You don't expect them to looklike a pleasant person.
You know when they're doingmonstrous things.
You expect them to look like amonster.
Courtney (25:24):
Yeah, A very wise woman told me when I was maybe
18 years old the people who lookthe most put together are the
most fucked up and you should becautious of them.
Oh yeah, and that has livedtrue in my head ever since it
was said to me.
Cousin Marc (25:40):
Most of the nicest people are covered in tattoos.
Courtney (25:43):
Yeah.
Cousin Marc (25:43):
And the most judgmental and the most
judgmental people go to churchevery day.
Hannah (25:49):
A hundred percent agree with you on that, cousin.
Courtney (25:53):
The context that I was having with this person was
more about the families thatjudge and they throw stones from
a glass house where they'relike look at my perfect family
with the white picket fence.
She's like when you're lookingat those people in their perfect
house with their perfect life.
There's a mountain of crapunderneath all of that.
Cousin Marc (26:09):
Like my mother says , you never know what happens
behind closed doors 100% you go,Auntie Bernie.
Courtney (26:15):
Now we have to have that.
Auntie Bernie has to come now.
Hannah (26:18):
I love Auntie Bernie.
She cracks me up.
Yeah, she's a good egg.
Are we ready for a card?
We have to do pick a card, anycard.
I already picked one.
Are we good?
Courtney (26:33):
All right, are you going to send it to Cousin Mark?
Cousin Marc (26:34):
so he can read it.
No, she can read it.
Courtney (26:35):
Go ahead oh good, because she's doing gasp face.
Hannah (26:38):
Okay, all right, I'm weird, I understand.
I'm weird Like I have thispodcast.
I'm weird, we're all weird.
We're very weird, I'm shufflingthrough this deck and I'm like
I have like this feeling I Ijust keep going, I keep going, I
keep going, I keep going and Ijust pick one Holly.
Cousin Marc (26:53):
Is this your next door neighbor?
Courtney (26:55):
No no God, oh my God, that's who I was thinking about
doing an episode on Two ofHearts.
Hannah (27:01):
Holly Piernan.
Do you know about Holly Piernan?
Cousin Marc (27:05):
No.
Hannah (27:05):
Okay, so it wasn't like an out west here case.
It's actually one of thereasons why my mom like freaked
out when we would play outsideis because of holly piernan.
All right, so two of hearts,holly piernan.
On august 5th 1993, 10 year oldholly piernan was reported
missing from surbridge onoctober 23rd 1993.
Her remains were found in awooded area in brimfield.
(27:26):
If you have any info about thiscase, please call
1-855-MA-Solve.
Courtney (27:32):
I just listened to a podcast about her this week
because I was thinking aboutmaking an episode, because her
name will come up a lot whenyou're talking about Lewis Lent
Her name will come up.
When you're talking about thedisappearance of Molly Bish, her
name will come up.
So there's a lot of people thatthey've suspected are connected
(27:52):
with Holly, but there's neverreally anything beyond that.
So that's one of the ones thatthey've suspected are connected
with, yeah, holly, but there'snever really any thing beyond
that.
So that's one of the ones thatI've been diving down that
rabbit hole.
So that's super weird thatthat's the card that you pulled.
It's almost like the time wepulled lynn, I know what I was
talking about.
Hannah (28:04):
Lynn, did you just have like a feeling in the deck?
I had a feeling in the deckweird.
Courtney (28:09):
I wish there wasn't a deck of missing people from
massachusetts, I know I two.
Rob (28:13):
I know there's another volume they're coming out with.
Courtney (28:15):
But I I really just love the idea that they did the
playing cards to put them intothe jails to see if people would
talk about the cases.
I mean, it's a if you wandershaven't seen.
I mean, obviously we pull acard every time, but if you
missed the part where we talkedabout it a way to hopefully get
prisoners in jails to talk aboutanything they might know for
leads in the cases I believe youcan get them if you just go on
(28:37):
Google.
Hannah (28:38):
You can usually type in.
Oh yeah, but these are from2021.
Courtney (28:40):
Yeah, there's a new volume.
There's a new volume, I waslooking at yeah, they're from.
Hannah (28:44):
oh, they do get them mail at Framingham.
Cousin Marc (28:48):
Plus Ashley Flowers does the deck.
She does episodes on all thecards that she has.
Courtney (28:56):
We were looking at getting in the Connecticut deck
next, I think, spreading thewealth around to some other
places too, especially NewEngland I feel like that's.
Cousin Marc (29:05):
The other show that I had listened to before was
Dark Down East, and she's basedout of Maine and does all of New
England.
Courtney (29:15):
I've listened to a few different podcasts.
It's funny because when you'relooking up like particular
subjects, I find like whenyou're looking at like when I
was looking at the babysitter, Iwas getting all one area, and
then, like when I was looking atthe one on Cape Cod, I kept
getting all one area.
So it's kind of funny how weall kind of gravitate to like
doing the most about what's nearto us.
Cousin Marc (29:33):
yeah, yeah proximity based, all right.
Well, if we can get some of thelisteners to throw out a
suggestion to me about my nextepisode, maybe they can do that.
Courtney (29:43):
We'll see what happens you have ideas for what you
want, or do you want just atotally random write-in?
Cousin Marc (29:49):
no, probably someone serial killerish well,
why don't?
Courtney (29:52):
okay, let's do it this way you come up with three
names that you were thinking youmight want to do, and I'll put
a poll up on Instagram and we'llget them to vote on what one
you do next.
Cousin Marc (30:03):
Okay, that sounds pretty good.
Courtney (30:04):
Is something on fire.
I'm sorry, cousin Mark.
No, no, I can smell somethingburning Burning, yes, I smell a
burning smell burning smell.
Well, there's candles on.
It's like when you leave theiron on.
It's like when you leave theiron on something too long.
Yes, oh my God, is there a fire?
Hey, hang on, there's a fire.
Cousin Marc (30:24):
Oh boy, don't burn the house down.
Courtney (30:26):
I'm getting water, I'm getting water.
Cousin Marc (30:29):
Holy shit people.
They're talking about gettingwater and throwing water on.
Hopefully, everything's okay.
I don't know if I should put iton the top or.
Oh God, okay, that was just abig flash.
Hannah (30:44):
Pull me out and I'm just going to splash water in that
direction.
I'm so sorry.
Okay, hold on.
Okay, back up.
Okay, ready?
Are you ready?
I think so.
Oh my God.
Okay, we Are you ready?
I think so?
Oh my god.
Okay, we can't do that again.
How are we gonna put that out?
Cover it Back up, back up.
Courtney (31:06):
Uncle Mark is yelling.
We're good, cousin Mark, we'regood, oh my god, holy shit,
we're good.
Cousin Marc (31:20):
Holy shit, is it good?
Someone almost burned down theWicked Wandering studio.
Rob (31:27):
I hear something is burning .
Hannah (31:31):
Okay, okay, okay.
Courtney (31:33):
The best.
Okay, okay, the best part isthat was all recording.
Hannah (31:38):
Oh my God, we're good.
Okay, oh boy, we do have to goclean up a mess though.
Cousin Marc (31:46):
That's okay.
I've been sitting here doing aplay by play.
Next time there's a kitchenfire, cover it with something.
Courtney (31:53):
Yeah, we were trying to do that, but it was really
hot and it was in the bedroom.
It was a candle.
Cousin Marc (31:59):
Oh, my God.
Hannah (32:00):
Well, we figured it out, Okay.
Well, we love you, bye.
Courtney (32:07):
What was in it that was making it do that?
I don't know, Because normallywhen you toss water on a candle
it goes out.
I'm glad you stopped it.
Hannah (32:14):
Why, if I stopped it, I feel awful.
I just threw water at her.
No, no, it's fine, I'd ratherkeep my house.
You want more towels, maybe atowel wipe you can put on.
Hold on, let me get that out ofhere and use it in the sink.
Courtney (32:28):
Yeah, because there's got to be something in that
candle that when you put wateron it Because I had a candle, do
that to me on the stove onceand I did the same thing.
Hannah (32:35):
I did it and it went one little burst and then it went
out, so I didn't want you to getclose to the end of it, dear
God.
Okay, I was like no, no, no, no, we're still recording.
Oh, thanks for listening today.
Rob (32:55):
Wicked Wanderings is hosted by me Hannah and co-hosted by
me Courtney.
Hannah (32:57):
And it's produced by Rob Fitzpatrick, music by Sasha N.
If you enjoyed today's episode,don't forget to leave a rating
and review, and be sure tofollow on all socials.
You can find the links down inthe show notes.
If you're looking for somereally cozy t-shirts or hoodies,
head over to the merch store.
Thank you for being a part ofthe Wicked Wanderings community.
We appreciate every one of you.
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