Smokejumper Who Fights Wildland Fires, with Madison Whittemore

Episode Transcript
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Madison Whittemore (00:00):
Well, you know, What are smokejumpers? And
like, he started ascribing it tome. And I remember having this
thought like, that is thecraziest thing I could think of
like that I could, you know,that anybody could do you know,
I couldn't think of anythingthat was that sounded harder or
more in my mind, just like,challenging and cool. And I had
this, like, I remember the seedwas planted of, I was just
curious, like, could I do that?
I wonder if I, you know, if Iwere to go through all the

(00:22):
steps, could I make it that far,it wasn't like, I thought I
could or couldn't, it was justlike, I wanted to know. And so
then as things kind ofprogressed, and I saw my dad in
his element, and I startedmeeting people, I kind of just,
you know, set the intention oflike, I'm just gonna find out,
you know, I'm going to doeverything I can. So that way,
whether I make it or don't makeit, I look back on that time.
And I know that I truly gave iteverything I could, and I knew

(00:45):
if I had what it took to make itto that level because it's kind
of considered the pinnacle ofwildland firefighting.

Julie Berman - Host (00:56):
Hey, everybody. I'm Julie, and
welcome to women with cool jobs.
Each episode will feature womenwith unique trailblazing and
innovative crews. We'll talkabout how she got here, what
life is like now, and actionablesteps that you can take to go on
a similar path, or one that'sall your own. This podcast is

(01:16):
about empowering you. It's aboutempowering you to dream big and
to be inspired. You'll hear fromincredible women in a wide
variety of fields, and hopefullysome that you've never heard of
support. Women who build robotsand roadways, firefighters, C
suite professionals surroundedby men, social media mavens,

(01:37):
entrepreneurs, and more. I'm soglad we get to go on this
journey together. Hey,everybody, this is Julie and
welcome to another episode ofwomen with cool jobs. Today, I
have a super cool, superinspiring woman with a very
awesome job. And her name isMadison Whitmore. So I'm going

(02:01):
to describe her job and I wantyou to guess what you think that
she does. So Madison goes up ina plane. She has about 100
pounds of gear on which includestwo parachutes. One is a big
rectangular parachute. The otherone is a backup parachute. And
then she jumps out of saidplane, and then she lands on the

(02:22):
ground in the wilderness. Shewill be also with her co
workers. And she then walkstowards fire to go put it out.
So what do you think she is? Sheis a smokejumper. So Madison is
employed by the US ForestService to put out wildland

(02:44):
fires in remote areas. That'sher job as a smoke jumper. And
she's been a smoke jumper forabout four years. And besides
the fact that she is incrediblybrave for literally going and
risking her life every time shedoes her job. I think that she
is such an inspiration becauseshe has worked so so hard to get

(03:05):
to where she is today. She is atthe top of the physical fitness,
you know abilities for a womanlike she is so so fit. But it
was incredible to hear about allthe work that she has done over
the past few years to get to beable to be a smokejumper. And
also she really works on hermental health too. And she does

(03:29):
things every single day tocontinue to be at the top of her
field and ready to do her jobsuccessfully. And so smoke
jumpers if you are not aware ofthem, because I certainly wasn't
I'd heard of firefighters, I'dheard of hot shots. But I had
never heard of smoke jumperssmoke jumpers are considered to

(03:50):
be very, very amazingfirefighters, they are like the
elite firefighters. They workincredibly hard to get to where
they are. And they have veryspecific requirements to be a
smokejumper physically as wellas experience wise. So so it's
definitely an achievement toeven be a smoke jumper. The fact

(04:13):
that Madison worked so hard toget to where she is is a true
testament to her vision. Whatshe wanted in her life for her
career for her job is a truetestament to how much she loves
what she's doing, and also tohow much she's really serving
the communities around thecountry. And it was incredible

(04:35):
to hear all the details of herjob, whether it was the day to
day, you know what happens asshe is about to jump out of a
plane and then land on theground what that's like, also,
you know, the history of whereshe was and how she got here and
how she found out about thiscareer. So such a cool
conversation. And I know you'regonna enjoy it. If you had any

(04:57):
moments. that were reallysurprising or that you really
identified with and thought, Ohmy gosh, I totally get this, I
would love to hear from you. Andit's just so fun to connect. So
feel free to reach out onInstagram at women cool jobs,
feel free to also go on mywebsite, www dot women was cool
jobs calm and you can reach methere. And I always look forward

(05:18):
to hearing back whether you knowit's feedback or ideas or
something that really resonatedwith you, or made you laugh. I
love to hear it all. Thank youso much as always for listening.
Hello, Madison, thank you somuch for being here on the show
today. How are you doing?

I'm doing well. Thanks, Julie. How are
you?

I'm wonderful. So I was so excited
when I found out about you andyour job. Because it's something
that I of course, don't knowanything about you are a
smokejumper you're employed bythe US Forest Service to put out
wildland fires in remote areas.
And you've been doing this forfour years now. And you have
done a tremendous amount of workto get to where you are in this

(06:02):
career. There are so manyinteresting facets to what you
do. It's unbelievablyimpressive, like how much work
and how much time and energy andjust sheer willpower, I feel
like took you to get to thisposition. And I want to go into
all the details. But first, Iwant to start with welcoming

(06:24):
you. So thank you for beinghere. Thank you for having me,
of course. And I would love inyour own words, if you could
describe how do you define whatyou do?

Yeah, for sure. So how like you nailed it,
we're smokejumpers for the USForest Service. I'm based out of
Missoula, Montana. And so whatwe what we do is we train to
parachute into remote areas toput out forest fires. That's
kind of the simple way ofputting it. That's what
especially spoke jumping wascreated to do, it was created to

(06:57):
quickly insert people intoremote areas to put out fires
usually caused by lightning,sometimes by hikers or whatnot.
But get to those areas quicklyand put the fires out before
they ever become big ones thatyou see on the news, smoke
jumping has evolved over theyears. So now we also have a lot
of other functions as well, wedon't always just go put out
small fires, we will also jumplarge fires. It's just a quick

(07:19):
way of getting there and providesupport. So we are kind of a
jack of all trades, we like tosay that we can go to whatever
incident we do, you know, mostlyfires, but we can go via vehicle
or commercial airlines to otherparts of the country for other
disasters as well. So we like tothink that we're, you know,
trained and qualified to helpout with whatever sort of
emergency situation

there could be evolving. That's amazing. And
so I want to ask, like, what isthe thing that really led you
into this career? Like, was itsomething that you saw when you
were younger? And you're like,Oh, my gosh, I need to do this?
Or it was something that justover time you felt like you kept

(08:02):
considering and coming back tolike, what was that process?
Like, how did you get to thiscareer?

Well, my dad was in fire, my home pretty much
my whole life, he started when Iwas really little. And so I kind
of always had this relationshipwith fire without even really
realizing it, you know, he wouldbe gone pretty much, you know,
all throughout the summer, youknow, come back, you'd always
smell like charcoal and thisrelationship I'd even know I had
with fire. And you know, I grewup I wasn't really interested. I

(08:29):
was a competitive dancer throughhigh school and college, you
know, I wasn't really my cup oftea. And then I got to a point
in college where I was just kindof, I guess, underwhelmed by my
current trajectory. I was, youknow, not super excited by my
majors. You know, my multiplejobs weren't really doing it for
me. So my dad kind of kept beinglike, you know, hey, this is
always an option. Why don't yougo take a Fire Academy class,

(08:51):
see if you like it, and we'll gofrom there. And I was like, you
know, why not? It's not going tohurt. So I took a just your
basic entry level, it's called131 90. It's just your basic
wildland firefighting class. AndI loved it. I thought this was
super awesome. And my dad wasprobably my biggest inspiration.
You know, I had this kind ofcuriosity for what what it was
that always pulled him away inthe summers and what he was

(09:13):
going to do, I really didn'tknow. So in a lot of ways, I
figured even if I didn't end upliking it, it would be cool
because it would give me a senseof closure or peace with that
where I understood my data alittle bit a little bit better.
Yeah. And in turn, I ended upunderstanding him and myself a
little bit better. And it kindof gave us a different
relationship that we didn't havenecessarily before. But I think

(09:33):
the big pivotal moment was in2013. There were some really bad
floods in Boulder, Coloradowhere I grew up. My dad was the
incident commander for thefloods, which basically meant he
was the overall leader of theincident response. So he was
coordinating, you know, rescuesand you know, getting medical
help and just the military.
There's a lot of Blackhawksgoing out and doing search and

(09:55):
rescue missions. Basically, hewas in charge of the thing. And
he invited me to come to theincident command posts where
they were kind of their, youknow, headquarters where they
were running it all. And I went,and I had just gotten my EMT. So
I was able to help out with someof the medical for that. And
basically, to see him working,you know, it wasn't a fire, but
I got to work with people whowork in fire, I got to meet

(10:16):
these really cool women who wereon, you know, hotshot crews, you
know, other hand crews, justother EMTs paramedics. And it
was just all really cool peoplethat I, you know, I looked up
to, I didn't even know them. Butthey were, I remember sitting in
this garage type area in thisbuilding. And, you know, I was
watching these people just liketaking in everything about them.

(10:36):
And these women, I remember,like they were, you know, they
had dirt all over their faces,they were wearing like baggy
clothes and backwards hats. Andthey were like drinking black
coffee, and all these thingsthat I hadn't really seen
before. And I'm just rememberinglike, they look so free is the
best way I could describe it.
They just were comfortable. Theydidn't care about anything else,
other than just like, finishyour cup of coffee, get ready to

(10:58):
go back to work, wait for thenext, you know, assignment. And
they were just all having a lotof fun. And I was like, this is
the type of the people that Iwant to surround myself with.
And I understand why my dad did.

Yeah, that's incredible. Well, it's
just like, I think to have thatexperience to go into an
environment like that as kind oflike where you were at the
beginning. And see, like all thepossibilities, that sounds
really powerful to to just seethese women embracing these
different types of roles. Thatsounds like it was originally

(11:32):
very different from what youimagined for yourself. Like when
you were in college? Yes. Yeah.
So after you took that firstcourse that you did was that
through like a college or whereis that through that that sort
of introductory course,

they all these courses all over the
place, different colleges willhost them. There's different
wildfire academies that happenedthroughout the year, there's
usually a summer one and awinter one. And this one was in
Colorado Springs, and it wasjust just a basic Academy where
there's classes all the way fromyour entry level classes to your
more, you know, high upleadership classes, fire weather

(12:08):
classes, all sorts of thingslike that. And so basically, you
know, if you work for whetherit's the government like I do,
or you work for the state whereyou work for a private company,
those different people can sendtheir employees to this academy
and get them classes to makethem you know, give them more
qualifications and moreexperience. So they're all over
the place. You know, there'severy state, there's always

(12:29):
different different coursesgoing on hosted by different
organizations.

Okay, interesting. And so that's
primarily through the state thenthat you would find these these
courses.

Yeah, there'll be hosted by in
different states. But, you know,for the for, like federal
government, ones that arehosted, those ones are typically
for federal governmentemployees, okay. There are
private, you know, companiesthat'll, you know, host these
courses that are open toanybody, you know, if you don't
get sponsored by your job, ifyou don't have a job yet, then
like I did you just pay to go toit, it's usually not very
expensive. And you can just goget your class, and then you're

(12:59):
good to go.

Yeah, and that sounds like such a cool way
to get an overview, like yousaid, just to see if it's
something that interests you.
And so, at the point, when you,you know, you went, you're an
EMT, you're helping your dad inthat situation, and just all
these other cool women. Whathappened after that, like, was
that a moment when you're like,Oh, I want to be in this type of

(13:20):
career? Like, could you tellthat there was a pivot? Or, or
was it sort of so gradual?

That Yeah, there was definitely a pivot for
sure. You know, I at that point,I realized, okay, this is
definitely something that'sintriguing to me that October
prior. So the year before, wewere in Florida, with my family,
and I were sitting by the pool,and my dad was reading this
book, it was called, like, thesmoke jumper or something. And I
don't necessarily recommend it.
It's kind of like a romanticcomedy drama with smoke jumping

(13:48):
in it. It's not like actuallybatsman jumping. I'm not saying
go read the book. But I rememberasking him like, Well, you know,
What are smokejumpers? And like,he just started describing it to
me. And I remember having thisthought like, that is the
craziest thing I could think oflike that I could, you know,
that anybody could do you know,I couldn't think of anything
that was that sounded harder ormore in my mind, just like,
challenging and cool. And I justhad this, like, I remember the

(14:11):
seed was planted of, I was justcurious, like, could I do that?
Like, I wonder if I, you know,if I were to go through all the
steps, could I make it that far,and I wasn't like, I thought I
could or couldn't, it was justlike, I wanted to know. And so
then as things kind ofprogressed, and I saw my dad and
his element, and I startedmeeting people, I kind of just,
you know, set the intention oflike, I'm just gonna find out,

(14:31):
you know, I'm gonna doeverything I can. So that way,
whether I make it or don't makeit, I look back on that time.
And I know that I truly gave iteverything I could. And I knew
if I had what it took to make itto that level, because it's kind
of considered the pinnacle ofwildland firefighting.

Yeah, and I can see why I mean, you know,
just in in a, you know, a briefchat before this. I mean,
besides being obviously thatyou're jumping out of an
airplane with a lot of gear onAnd you're you're managing to do
your parachute, like the idea ofjust the job that you're doing

(15:09):
that you're literally jumpingout of an airplane to go fight a
fire, I mean that I was like,whoa. And so I can see clearly
why, you know, that isconsidered the pinnacle of
firefighting because there areso many different elements to
what you do, you know, not only,like the technical aspect of

(15:31):
what you're doing to fight thefires, and all the information
that I am imagining that youhave to know, and sort of
different scenarios that youhave to go through. But then
also, just your, your physical,like prep that you've done, and,
and all the things that you'vedone to really get yourself in
peak performance state where youcan physically go out and do

(15:55):
your job, and be safe and behealthy and keep doing it over
and over again, like I thinkthat's it's very impressive.
Like, I definitely want to sharesome of those details, because I
think like all that you do asfar as the exercise stuff, and
all that you did, you know, asfar as your roles that you've

(16:15):
had to get to where you are nowis really important to also look
at as a whole picture. So I loveyou know, to talk about at this
point, like, what was that nextstep for you, after you, you
know, saw your dad reading thatbook and heard about
smokejumpers. And then after yousaw all those super cool women,

(16:36):
when you were an EMT in thatsetting, what was that next
step? Like what sort of helpedpropel you to this point?

Yeah, so I started just applying for jobs.
You know, I kind of just a lotof googling talk to my dad, I
went on to USA Jobs, which isthe main place for federal
getting a federal job, and Ijust start typing in wildland
firefighter and I applied tolike every job I could find on
there. I applied to privatecompanies to you know, volunteer
fire departments usually havewildland teams, you can apply

(17:02):
for structure departmentsusually have wildland teams, so
I just applied everywhere. Andthen I took the first job I got
offered, because I just was likeI gotta get my foot in the door,
I'll take whatever I get, I needjust experience on my resume if
I'm going to move up. So thekind of the progression I took
was, I got a job on an engine, Iworked in South Dakota for two
seasons. And Mike, you know,when I started there, it was
like, Okay, get in learn as muchas you can about the basics,

(17:25):
learn as much as you can, I wason an engine at the time. So I
learned about, you know, all ofwhat it all what it took to
fight wildland fire via engine,you know, we went on some big
assignments to California andWashington as well as local
fires. And then my goal fromthere was I wanted to get on a
hotshot crew, which is kind ofthe next big step up, where
you're on a crew, they call ittype one crew, where you're with

(17:47):
a, you know, group about 20 to22 people and you go in, you
know, you do more complexassignments on usually, usually
large fires, usually prettylong, long hours and long weeks,
long months. When I started inSouth Dakota, my goal was, you
know, I need to get in a lotbetter shape, I was not a
runner, like I said, I was acompetitive dancer for a long

(18:09):
time, which is a very differenttype of fitness. So I could not
run, I mean, I could barely runa mile. And it was, you know, it
was embarrassing. So we would goout there, you know, we would, I
was I ran as much as I could,but I was slow, like an 11
minute mile was like,exhausting. And I got there and
I was the slowest in the groupby far. And I remember just
having, you know, going on crewruns and getting that like irony

(18:31):
taste in your mouth, when you'rebreathing way too hard. And
you're like, you kind of getthat panic. And I had I would
have these anxiety triggers whenI would run if I wasn't fast
enough where I was, that was inthe back, you know, in my throat
feel like it was closing up andI would get these like anxiety
attacks. So I was like I need toone get in better shape. And to
I need to learn how to controlthe mental part of it. Because

(18:51):
that's entirely within like,that should be no problem like
that. It's it's harder in a lotof ways. But at the same time, I
can control that physical stuffwill come with time. So you
know, I would work out two,three times a day, I built this
whole plan. And the plan wasboth short term and long term.
You know, I kind of had my goalsfor where I wanted to get that
month. And then where I wantedto get in five years. My goal

(19:13):
originally was that I wanted totry and smoke junk by the time I
turned 27. And I ended up fasttracking a little bit and I got
accepted the year I was I turned24. So I kind of had these long
vowels and short term goals, buteverything was working towards
that ultimate goal of likeneeding to be in good enough
shape to be a rookie smokejumperwhich i think you know, it was

(19:35):
overwhelming because your goalsare so big, but kind of break it
down into bite sized pieces andjust Hey, this is the run I got
to do today. And then I'll worryabout tomorrow. And then you
know, see how I progress.

So what was that timeframe like like when
you first started your positionon the engine to when you
actually then got that rookieposition as a smokejumper What
was that timeframe between then

yeah, so I started in 2014 on the engine, I
did two seasons doing that. Andthen I got on a hotshot crew in
New Mexico in 2016. And my goalwas to maybe do three to four
years in the hotshot crew beforeI was going to apply to jump. I
did two seasons in the hotshotcrew, and then one of my friends
encouraging me like, you shouldjust apply, like, just see what
happens. You know, theytypically don't pick you up

(20:22):
right away. When you startapplying. Usually, I'd like to
see your name on the list for afew years. So I kind of I
applied, not really expectingmuch. And I ended up getting a
spot that year in Missoula. Andso I just decided to go for it.
You know, I kind of had to trustthat I had done enough work up
to that point, to create a goodfoundation. And then yeah, in
the summer, I turned 24 went andrepeat. And here we are.

That's amazing. Yeah. And so that was
2018. And for that season, forthat summer season, when you say
season, is that that was yourrookie year. Yep. 2018. Okay.
Yeah. And that is amazing thatyou were able to not only have
such high level goals, but then,like, make the plan for that.

(21:08):
But then to do it that muchfaster. Do you think that you
were able to get there that muchfaster? Because you were
literally so focused? were youdoing things every day, in order
to achieve your goals? And ifso, what were you doing?

Yeah, for sure, you know, I kind of
developed this mentality oflike, everything I did, no
matter what it was, it needed tosomehow be in support of my
ultimate goal. And that doesn'tmean it was like, I will only
work out and eat protein, like,you know, if I was going to go,
you know, out for a night withfriends, it was going to be
because I needed to mentallydecompress from the training,
and that that was going to thenfurther me towards that goal,

(21:46):
you know, not to like makeexcuses for actions. But
everything was, you know, Itried to make everything
methodical and you know,thoughtful, you know, I tried to
incorporate in kind of yoga andmeditation, which I really
didn't like, but I knew, youknow, it was like that was going
to be crucial to be able toground myself, because I knew
that that was an issue I hadwith getting kind of, you know,
worked up if I wasn't doing wellat something. So both the mental

(22:08):
and physical training, I thinkwere equally as important. as I
got closer to actually rookietraining, like, when I got
accepted for the job, that'swhen the training really ramped
up. So rather than try andcontinue creating a strong
foundation, it was like, Okay,now you got to get in the best
shape your life, you don't needto be able to sustain this after
this, because nobody can trainthat hard and continue to, but I
just need to get to that rightto be able to perform for six

(22:30):
weeks. And then once you're in,you're in, you know, yeah,
always want to keep so highstandards. But

yeah, and it's really incredible. I think
that you were so focused, and,you know, on on the mental and
the physical elements, andmaking sure that everything you
do align to what you wanted todo in the future. And I think
that's such an interestingconcept, because I actually had
a friend, you know, even when Iwas talking about myself and my

(22:58):
podcast, and where I want totake it and build a community.
And she's like, okay, Julie, sohow can you think in a broader
way, like, is what you're doingtoday actually going to
contribute to what you're doingnext year? Or what you want your
vision to become in three years?
You know, like, what is thatbigger picture? And so that's so
interesting. I've literally justhad that conversation this past

(23:22):
week. And so it's like, whatdivine timing that literally
your you like walks the walk,you know, like, you're doing
that exact thing. And so it'sincredible to hear where it got
you and also the fact that youyou condense your own timeframe,
which is pretty awesome. Itreally shows how determined You
were so very impressive. So Iwant to talk a little bit about

(23:45):
when you were doing these otherroles. Were there a lot of women
who were in this career, youknow, whether it was when you
were, you know, on the engineteam, and then also, you know,
like, when you were with the hotshots, and then currently, what
was it like being a woman inthis field? Did you have any

(24:06):
challenges or things that weredifficult to deal with? Because
you are a female?

Yeah, for sure. You know, professionally,
when I started in South Dakota,you know, South Dakota, the
area, it was a little bit of agood old boys club, you know, I
was the first female that theyhad hired in quite a while, you
know, which I think wasintentional from the forest.
They're trying to diversify,which just naturally means that
somebody's kind of got to, youknow, put their toes in the
water first. So I kind of writethat on, you know, it's

(24:36):
interesting, I noticed, like theyounger generations, like people
more up my age, you know, maybe10 years older than me and
younger, like we're alwaysgreat. Like, I feel like the
like the new culture in firecoming up is really supportive.
And you know, kind becausethat's what they're used to, you
know, they're used to morediverse groups. They're, they're
more open minded. It feels likeyou know, what, what was

(24:56):
challenging for me is when Iwould work with some people who
had been there for You know, 40years, and we're so set on,
like, this is how it is, and youthreaten what we know and what
the way we've always done it.
And they would, you know, theywould make all sorts of kind of
like sexist comments or justlittle things to make me realize
that I wasn't there because theywanted me there. I was just
there because someone higherthan them is trying to, you

(25:19):
know, move chess pieces around.
So, you know, that was, that waschallenging. It was kind of one
of those like, okay, is thiswhat this field is like, you
know, and at that point, thatwas all I knew. So it was kind
of a, you know, I gotta, I gottafind my way to work through
this. There weren't other manyother women there that I could,
you know, kind of commiseratewith or, you know, ask for

(25:39):
advice. It was just kind oflike, bite the bullet and get
through it. So, you know, Ienjoyed learning a lot. I
enjoyed some of the people Iworked with a great deal, which
is what made it worthwhile. Itjust was the handful of people
who, you know, didn't want methere. That made it. Yeah,
challenging, but I knew that itwasn't my end game. So I was
like, I can put up with anythingfor because I know it's not this

(26:00):
isn't where I'm gonna end up.
So, you know, I got out after mysecond season, kind of was like,
Good riddance. Thanks for allthe lessons, but I gotta see
what, what else is out there.
And then I went to the hotshotcrew, okay. Yeah. And the crew
was awesome. They, yeah, thatwas in New Mexico. Okay, at that
my first year, there was justone other female on it. My
second season, there was five ofus. And it was a blast. Wow.

(26:24):
Yeah, they were, the leadershipon that crew is fantastic. great
group of guys and women. Thatwas, that was awesome. So when I
got there, I was like, Okay,this is giving me you know, hope
that things are, you know, thatthere's possible, you know, out
elements to this job that arenot like my first experience,
but you know, there's stilllike, little things, you kind of

(26:47):
you feel like you stand out areyou, you know, you're not as
strong at carrying a chainsaw,as the guys are little things
like that, where you get, youknow, you feel kind of feel
different. But those are allthings you can work on, you
know, if you're not good atcarrying a chainsaw, that has
nothing to do with your gender,that's, you know, I always like
to say what I lack in naturalability, I make up for an
effort. So, you know, I'm like,they probably could a month off

(27:11):
and lay on the couch and eat hotdogs and beer, and go crush it
the next day, I can't do that,you know, I got to actually work
for it. But you know, that'sonly going to make it more
worthwhile for me at the endanyways.

Yeah. And that's awesome to hear. I think
that is such an interestingpoint that you bring up because
that is, you know, the physicalaspect is something that I was
curious about, because like, youknow, even your example of
carrying a chainsaw, justnaturally, if men are taller and
larger, and, you know, yourability to carry more, or to

(27:44):
reach more, do certain things,is going to be a little bit
easier. And so how did you comefrom that mindset of like, I'm
just gonna keep working harderfrom the get go? Like, has that
always been your mindset to sortof really compete in this field
to have that equal footing withthem?

Yeah, I think the thing I've always
asked myself is what can I do togive myself an edge, okay, so
maybe I don't have the naturaljust build and muscle tone, but
you know, I am five foot eight,and I, you know, I'm not I'm
able to put on muscle. So I knowit's possible. So for me, it was
like I'm going to use and I'mgoing to use science, basically,
like I'm going to work on mydiet, I'm going to work on

(28:25):
hydration, I'm going to youknow, work on sleep, I'm going
to work on like when toappropriately consume caffeine,
like I, I had everything sodialed in, you know, so before I
rookie, I would walk around,like at the movies, or at a
friend's house or whatever. AndI would have my Ziploc baggie
full of ham and cheese, and justlike be just crushing it because

(28:46):
I knew if I could get my proteinup, you know, I had these set
goals every day, like I gottahit this non protein, carbs that
if I can hit all those, youknow, that I can put on this
amount of muscle per week, youknow, like, I broke it down. And
by doing that, like it truly itworks great, you know, and I'm
like, I guarantee not many otherThe guys are probably breaking
it down to such small pieces.
But I was like, that's gonnawork for me. And I'm training

(29:08):
smart, you know, I couldn't justgo out, put on 100 pound pack
and do that every day, theeffort needed to be methodical
as well. So it was incorporatingwhen to rest how to rest. I
would go to physical therapy, Iwould just I would do mobility
work yoga plan trainings towhere you know, you're doing
your lower body one day up orthe next right, you know,

(29:29):
everything kind of likeintegrating together to avoid
injury, and to really fuel themost progress possible, which
was cool because it'd be like inthe process, I learned so much
about like exercise physiologyand nutrition and everything
because I felt like I had tolearn it because like, that's
what I needed in order to giveme an edge.

Yeah, and that's incredible. Like just the
amount of work and the amount ofplanning and yeah, like even
taking your baggie of cheese andmeat and just being so prepared.
That is true that it Um, and andI, I want to talk about, you
know a little bit about what youdo now as a smokejumper. And

(30:08):
talk about those details,because we've heard a lot of
your prep that you've done, youknow, like weathers mental
physical, getting your foot inthe door and the steps you've
gone through to get to thispoint that you're at now, tell
us like, What is that, like, Iknow, you mentioned, there's a
season for that. So if you couldkind of explain some of the

(30:30):
basics of what you do, what gearyou have, and your like your day
to day roles when you're inseason versus when you're off
season,

kind of day to day. So in the summer is
obviously that's like ourbusiest time of year. So we are,
you know, after training seasonsdone, which is in the spring,
everybody's up to you know, theyhad all their proficiency jumps
in, which basically means thatwe've, you know, done, practice
jumps to get people ready forthe season. So once everybody's
trained up and ready for theseason, then it pretty much
starts up depending on where thecountry starts burning first. So

(31:02):
we can go anywhere, pretty muchanywhere in the United States
where there's an airport, wewill be, you know, they call it
initial attack, where you arepretty much waiting for the
siren to go off. And then whenthe siren goes off, that means
you have a fire, and you havetwo minutes to suit up, which
basically means you have twominutes to put on all of your
gear, which is your jump jacket,jump pants, your harness, which

(31:23):
has your main parachute on theback, and then your reserve
parachute on your chest, andyour helmet and your gloves. And
then you have a personal gearbag, which is like your, it's a
backpack that you will use onceyou get to the fire, and then
that straps onto your front whenyou're in the plane. So two
minutes, you're geared up andready to go, you go out to the
plane, when you're in the plane,you then fly to the fire, you'll

(31:45):
get some information thatdispatch has over the radio, but
it's usually not a whole lotuntil you get there. And then
when we get to the fire, we willcircle it with the plane quite a
few times to get and get as muchIntel as we can. At that point,
we're sizing up the firebasically seeing you know what
it's doing, where it's going,like what to kind of expect, if
there's anyone already on theground, we might be talking to
them just to get getinformation, but where they want

(32:07):
us to jump will look for jumpspots, basically will look for
areas that are safe enoughdistance from the fire that
we're not going to get, youknow, burned by the time we get
to the ground big enough to jumpinto we can jump into pretty
small spots. So it's usually notis one of the big parts of
rookie training is making sureyou can jump into tight timber.

And what does that mean? What's the tight
spot like? size wise, just so wehave an idea?

we've jumped into spots that are like, you
know, couple 100 square feetjust like little small pond size
holes. pretty small spots.

That sounds really small considering you're
jumping in a parachute plan. Andwhat is the height that you
usually jump from?

We jump from 3000 feet. Now,

Unknown (32:52):
that sounds very impressive.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun. We once we pick out
the jump spot, and then wedecide, you know, kind of what
we're going to do. Basicallyeveryone in the plane all the
jumpers coordinate, like howwe're going to get there, we
when we parachute we parachutewe called a pattern where
basically you're flying kind ofaround the spot and coming in to
land almost as an airplane sameas an airplane would. Okay, I

(33:18):
know that might not make a tonof sense. But basically, we're
all coordinating in the plane,basically the path we're going
to take to get into the jumpspot. And then we once we're
good with that, then we get abriefing from the spotter. And
the spotter is usually anexperienced smokejumper, who's
kind of in charge of getting usall out the door. And then once
we get our briefing, we willthen jump and get to the spot.

(33:40):
And then as soon as we're on theground, we pack up all of our
gear and head to the fire. Okay,

and what kind of gear do you get?

So we jumped with, basically, you know, we
have our jumpsuit, ourparachutes, and then our
personal gear we have like mostpeople jump with a tent, and
we'll usually shove thatsomewhere into your jumpsuit for
extra padding. We've got youknow, with water, different
tools, stuff like that, after wehit the ground, the plane comes
back around again, and it'llthrow a pair of cargo, and the

(34:08):
pair cargo has our food, water,chainsaws, fuel, sleeping bags,
and that sort of stuff. And youknow, all that cargo is on its
own small parachutes that'llcome in. And that way we have
all of that and it's usuallyenough food to get get us
through, you know, three to fourdays.

Okay. Wow, that sounds very, like just
logistics wise to manage allthat. I mean, it sounds like is
everyone a really good planner?
Because I can tell just fromwhat you're telling me that is
like you're a really amazingplanner, and just like extremely
detail oriented and goaloriented. Do you feel like the
rest of your colleagues aresimilar in those traits? Yeah,

I think for the most part, and there's
definitely the people inleadership roles for like
operations and the pair cargosort of thing that people high
up in those positions are reallyReally good at that, you know,
and that usually trickles down.
But I think we all find that wehave to be organized. And the
more organized we are just themore successful things go. But
that being said, too, it's beenalso been kind of done the same
way for so long that I think,you know, it's just built into

(35:13):
the system of this. You know,you train people up. And that's
just the way you do it. And butit does, yeah, there are usually
quite a few moving parts, butthere's a lot of really good
people in good leadershippositions and make it make it
possible.

Yeah, that's awesome. And leadership
makes a huge difference. Yes.
Yeah. So that makes completesense. And so before then, you
had so many amazing quotes thatI would love to share one
because I thought it was sofascinating that you shared this
with me. So you said sometimesthe hardest part is being in the
plane flying to a fire, sweatingyour butt off in your jumpsuit,

(35:48):
fighting air sickness and tryingnot to let your anxiety of the
unknown get the best of you. Howwindy will it be? Are the trees
really tall? How fast is thefire moving? Did I remember to
pack extra underwear? And, andyou know what that last that
last one? Like? I just I startedlaughing too, because I was
like,

Unknown (36:09):
cuz, you know, it's

like, I'm like imagining you coming out of
the airplane falling near a firewith like, I think you said it
was 100 pounds of gear on. Andthen, like coming down. And that
Yeah, also wearing aboutunderwear was just so practical.

Unknown (36:26):
And important. But yeah, like you're literally
falling from an airplane to gofight a fire. So

it was just like that, that sort of that
paradox between a very bigimportant job and like the
practical like, I need to havefresh underwear for the next
day, or like I needed to face orwhere's my toothbrush? So with
that, like, how about thatmental part? Like what do you do
to really be in the right mentalspace to focus on what you need

(36:55):
to focus in the moment? And thenyou know, before and after those
important moments of focusing,like maintaining your mental
health and making sure you'reyou're where you're at and where
you need to be to continue doinga great job.

Yeah, that's a great, great question. And I
think, you know, it's taken meabout up until now, my fourth
year to finally feel like Ireally have the tools to do to
do that. And to kind of keep myheadspace right. You know, a lot
of it, it was it wasn't stuff Icould teach myself, or just or
just show up learn, you know,with the knowledge of it was
what people taught me. So myrookie trainers were awesome.

(37:31):
And one of the things that theyalways preach to us in rookie
training was essentiallycompartmentalization to where
you are only focusing on thetask that you were doing in that
exact moment, any past successesor any past failures are
basically no longer real. Andyou can take something from each
of them and bring it forward.
But you are not focusing oneither of them, you're literally
only focused on that exactmoment, that exact task. So that

(37:52):
compartmentalization, that kindof letting go attitude that then
set us up, I think for successgoing forward. Another aspect I
think, too, that they taught uswas the importance of
visualization. And so you know,when we're taking off on the
plane, and if you were to lookaround at the other jumpers, I'd
say probably two thirds, if notmore of us usually have our eyes

(38:13):
closed. And we're going throughin our heads, the parachute
flight that we're going to take,even if we haven't seen the fire
yet, or what it's going to belike we're going through
emergency procedures, we aregoing through kind of just
different flight patterns, we'rebasically visualizing it from
the point you leave the plane tothe plane hit the ground. And I
always visualize like how I'mgoing to feel when I'm on the

(38:34):
ground, you know, and it'susually like, when I get to the
ground, I'm gonna feel relievedthat I'm safe. I had a good
flight, you know, I dideverything that I was trained to
do correctly. And just imaginewhat that feeling is going to be
like. And so I think thatvisualization,
compartmentalization. And thenthird, for me is big is
breathing exercises. You know,when I started out, you my first
100 jumps or so, you know, I'dstill get kind of anxiety in the

(38:58):
plane and start thinking, youknow, thinking things through
pretty hard. So I started thisbreathing exercise where I would
like breathe in, and then blowout against my cheeks really
slowly. And that naturally kindof drops your heart rate, I find
that that really helps. Becausesometimes, you know, if you're
moving around with all that gearon and how tight your harnesses,
even small motions seem to makeyour heart rate go through the
roof sometimes. So stop,breathe, blow out, blow out

(39:21):
against my cheeks, and that'lldrop my heart rate enough for me
to kind of like, Okay, I'm good.
You know, I can handlewhatever's now.

And did you develop that breathing technique
yourself?

No, I learned that one from actually
one of the guys I read with hisgirlfriend came in one day
during Ricky training afterafter the day was over. And she
did like a little meditationcourse for us. And she talks
about one and it actually reallyworks for me. So that's awesome.
You are

great.
Always good to get those thoseamazing tips. And yeah, and
that's so interesting, too, thatyou have those sort of three
things. That you use the, thecompartmentalization, and then
the visualization, but also thebreathing. And, and it's, I
really appreciate that you sharetoo, that it's something that

(40:13):
has taken you time to figureout, you know, different things
that work for you and to sort ofmanage and then to really be,
like, in such a good place whenyou are doing your job. Because
I sometimes I feel like youknow, we are, we can be like our

(40:33):
own best helper are weak, and wecan also be our own worst enemy
as far as like getting into allthat mental stuff that goes on.
And the idea of the those, youknow, things combined. And then
also, I loved how you said, theemotional aspect of like, how
are you going to feel when youland. And like focusing on like,

(40:56):
how you're going to feel isreally intriguing to me, because
that's also something that I'veheard a lot about, just, you
know, in developing goals, ordeveloping a vision for the
future, or even when it comes tomarketing, like people talk all
the time about that emotionalaspect. So it's really

(41:19):
interesting that you're usingthat in such an amazing way for
your job. And I would have neverthought about that like it, you
know, but it's really cool tohear, because I think that that
part of the process is is reallyimportant, like how are you
going to feel when you'veachieved something, you know,
successfully? And that's animportant one getting to the

(41:41):
ground safely?

Yeah, yeah.
And I think big part too, is,you know, deciding how you want
to feel or imagine how you'regonna feel, but also not trying
to numb or mute the feelingsthat are going to naturally
arise, you know, so I thinkfirst, when I get the fear
aspect, I was like, I need tofind a way to stop this, like, I
need to, I need to find a way tonot be scared of this at all.
And I think that that was thewrong approach. Because that
fear, you know, is it'simportant, you know, it plays a

(42:06):
role. I remember flying a firemy rookie year, and it was just
this nasty cliffy, there wasjust a bunch of rocks and big
dead trees, and there was nogood place to jump. And I
remember looking down at it, andmy heart, I was like, I'm gonna
die like, this is like, yeah,I'm not gonna make it like this
is horrible. Now, we didn't endup jumping it because we decided
it wasn't safe enough. There wasnowhere to jump. But I remember

(42:28):
asking one of the guys I waslike, does this ever go away
like this fear. And he said, theday that you stop feeling, at
least a little bit afraid is aday, you should hang up the
towel, because that fear iswhat's going to keep you safe.
And I remember that, that hit mereally hard. Like, it's not
about trying to numb it or getrid of it. But it's about how to
how to make it work for you, youknow how to make that fear, keep

(42:50):
you safe, to give you an edge toget you there safely. And to
have more control over knowingwhat's realistic fear and
what's, you know, just selfdoubt, or anxiety or the demon
voices that you can, you know,push out. But that's an ongoing
lesson for me. But I think it'sbeen really helpful if just
whatever you do, whether it'ssmoke jumping, or whether it's,
you know, you're an artist, or aswim coach, or whatever you are,

(43:13):
you know, not ever trying toforce ourselves to stop being
uncomfortable, because that doesserve a purpose. Yeah.

And I, it's like, I think that's such a
profound statement. And almostto respect, when we do have
fear. And to, like, analyze withwhat you're saying, you know, is
like, is this serving a purpose?
And if so, like, what service?
Or what purpose? Is thisserving? Um, you know, or Yeah,

(43:44):
is this just like a, maybe aconfidence related thing, where
I'm psyching myself out. And,but if it does serve a purpose,
like being respectful of thepurpose that it serves, and
keeping it in mind, so that youcan go do something and, and do
it well, and be safe, as well.
So I love I really love thatperspective. And I totally agree

(44:06):
with you that I think that's soincredibly valuable in whatever
field or career you're in. Andso I want to go back as we went
on a little detour, but I wantto go back to when you do land
on the ground. What is thatprocess? Like at that point?
What are what are you doing?

(44:27):
What is your team doing aroundyou, if you could kind of walk
us through that?

Yeah, for sure. So typically, the first
jumper on the ground is thethey're called the jumper in
charge, and there'll be theincident commander where they're
basically the leader of thatfire. And depending on how
complex or complex or big thefire is, they might pass it off
to the next jumper, if they'vegot more experience if it's, if
it's, you know, a really big oneor more complicated or whatnot.

(44:51):
But basically the first personthe grounds leader, the first
several people that hit theground, we will first person
will pull a streamer out oftheir like pocket and a stream
is actually the wind theindicators that we throw out of
the plane. And so when we throwthem out of the plane when we're
flying around, it shows usbasically what the winds doing.
Wow. And it's a tool for us tofigure out where we're going to

(45:12):
get released in the air. So thatway we know how much when there
is and where we need to jump sothat we can get to the spot. So
basically, the first person willpull one of these streamers out
of their pocket and hold it upin the air. So that way, when
the other jumpers are coming in,they can see which way the wind
is going. Because you alwayswant to land going into the wind
to make your landing as soft aspossible. Okay, so they'll

(45:32):
they'll help the jumpers get tothe ground, and then their job,
the first few on the ground,we'll go to the fire and they'll
start scouting it out, kind ofstart figuring out what what our
tactics are going to be.
Everyone else is gathering upall the gear, all the cargo,
kind of organizing it in onespot, we jump with these big
kind of collapsible become packout bags, and then the big bags
that we will then shove all ofour junk gear and parachutes

(45:55):
into. And then they're, youknow, watertight, we'll put
these watertight bags aroundthem, stash them somewhere for
when we're done with the fire,usually in a safe spot. And so
once we get all the gear packedup all the cargo organized to
kind of establish where the fireis what we're going to do, then
we'll actually start engaging.
So there's always that pausebefore you start, where you're

(46:16):
figuring out what your plan ishow we're going to attack it,
you know what we're going to do,and then we'll go, we usually
have chainsaws, so it could beyou know, cutting trees or
cutting brush to create, youknow, a fuel break around the
fire. We have Polanski's whichare our hand tool we can use to
dig line around the fire, againto create a fuel break, which is
basically, you know, creatingDirt, dirt perimeter around the

(46:39):
fire. So it can it can't grow,if that makes sense. Yeah. And
so that's kind of the that'slike a typical, you know,
lightning fire in the middle ofthe woods. That's kind of what
we would do when we got to theground.

Okay, and how many people are you working
with at that point?

Yeah, so with our biggest plane, we can
jump with up to 10 jumpers on afire. So basically, if it's a
small fire, we might only throwtwo jumpers on it, if they can
handle it, if it's a big fire,and we think we're gonna need
everybody will throw 10. Andbasically, when I say throw, the
plane will take a couple passes.
And usually, usually you jumptwo jumpers at a time where it's
one and then the other, theplane will fly around and then

(47:13):
jump to more. So yeah, it'stotally dependent. That's one of
the things we determine when weget to the fire is kind of what
we think it's who how manypeople we think it's going to
take in order to to put it out.

Okay, so I want to also get into some of
the some of like, the morepractical or specific details of
your job. And I know youmentioned a few times, but I'd
love to hear more insight intoit. Like some people you said
have specific roles or specificknowledge on your team. And I

(47:46):
would love to talk about that,you know, as far as like the
people who get to work withdozers or, you know, other heavy
equipment or like what otherthings are you trained in? As a
smokejumper?

Yeah, for sure. So our job it feels like
it has like two very strongelements, obviously, the smoke
jumping aspect, and everythingrelated to smoke, jumping, and
then obviously the wildland fireaspect, which is the actual, you
know, the other half of the job.
So you know, within the base,then the actual smokejumper
base, there's a lot of differentskill sets and fields within
that. So you have the loft,which is your everything related
to parachutes, parachute,packing, repairs, manufacturing

(48:25):
harnesses and other gear. So wesew all of our own gear in the
winter, which is one of the bigwinter projects we take on. We
make everything except for theparachutes, we sell our
jumpsuits our pack out bags,everything of that sort. So you
have that element of everything.
And then you have the pair cargoside of things, which we call

(48:47):
load masters. And they're incharge of getting all of the
paired cargo side of things forfires that we jump. And we can
also support other fireresources and other fires. So
they could call the base andsay, Hey, we need we need some
food, can you send a plane overwith X amount for this many
days, and we can do that so wecan support other people as
well. And then we also have ouroperations area. And they're

(49:09):
kind of like the brain in thebase where they're the ones
coordinating with dispatch, whenwe get a fire call. They're the
ones just kind of overseeingeverything, all the moving
pieces, who's where you know howto get them back from a fire
once they're done. They're likethe Yeah, just to kind of the
main hub for everything. Andthen we also have training,

(49:29):
which is the training departmentwho coordinates rookie training.
And then proficiency trainingfor current jumpers every year
gets people classes, that sortof thing. So there's a lot of
elements within the smokejumping job, and then within
wildland fire, whether you'resmoke jumper or not. There's a
lot of different roles you cantake on as well like you'd
mentioned heavy equipment. Wecall them qualifications to

(49:52):
where you can want to get acertain qualification. You
usually have to have a couplenumber of training positions
where you go out and you withsomebody qualified to do that
role, and you basically learnfrom them, and once you've done
typically three or four trainingassignments and you get signed
off, and then you can then bethe actual, qualified person for
that position. So heavyequipments one of them, firing

(50:14):
boss is another one. That's,that's a lot of fun. That's, you
know, you're in charge of, youknow, if you're going to do a
burn operation on a fire, whereyou're setting up, you know,
they call back fire, or you'redoing a burnout away from homes
or whatever, you're kind ofcoordinating that and leading
that team. Now, the idea

with that, and correct me if I'm wrong is
to burn the stuff before theactual fire gets there. Right.
So it doesn't cross that thatline or that threshold.

Yeah, exactly. You know, basically,
you're, you're doing it in acontrolled fashion, because when
fire starts moving, and it's thecall has like a strong head to
it to where it's pushing, youknow, whether you have a big
road, it can still jump rightover that. But if you're all
along that road, and yourlighting fire along it, then
that fire can will oftentimespull in to the main fire. And

(51:00):
then you're basically creating anice big barrier, because they
say hard black were things thathave already burned is the
safest place to be on a firebecause it's not going to burn
again, once it's already burnt.
Yeah, it feels like chess towhere it's like you're
constantly trying to think like,how can I get ahead of it? You
know,

wow, that's incredible. For those like
additional positions, orresponsibilities, or those
usually people who've been insmoke jumping for quite a while,
because you have to earn thoselike, you know, you have to do
those extra steps in order toget those and I said wasn't
certifications andqualifications? Thank you.

Yeah, it usually takes a few years to
start getting qualifications.
Okay, start out usually you justkind of have your basics. First
thing you typically get is your,you know, your firefighter one
two, where you're essentiallyyou're able to lead like a small
squad of people, then you getyour incident commander, type
five, which is the basicleadership qualification to
where you can, you can basicallybe the person in charge of a
small fire, maybe just like asingle tree struck by lightning,

(51:58):
or abandoned campfire, that sortof thing. And then you progress
your way up. And the more youYeah, the more you stick around,
the longer you're in it, you'llget more opportunities for some
of those other ones, typically,you know, like heavy equipment
might take you till you'rebetween your fifth and seventh
year or something in fire, maybelonger, depending on you, if
you're lucky enough to getassignments or not. Yeah,

that's really cool, too, because it
sounds like there's a lot ofopportunities for growth and for
learning different skills, justbeyond, I guess what I would
expect your main job to be ofliterally jumping out of a plane
and going to fight thesewildland fires. So that's really
interesting to hear that there'sall those aspects and those sort

(52:41):
of specialty areas that you canget that experience and
knowledge in.

It's interesting, you know, all these
different roles you wouldn'texpect expected to fill, you
know, heavy equipment,especially, I started working on
that one this last year. And youknow, you go you go to a fire
and typically, you know, heavyequipment operators, they're
kind of these kind of more ruraldudes who've been working, you
know, maybe they have acontract. So they just they've
made their main job is workingon a farm or whatever they like

(53:08):
to do ranching, this sort ofthing, you know, and then I show
up, it's like my blondeponytail, you know, five foot
eight, and I'm telling them whatto do with their dozer. I've
definitely gotten some like,Yeah, I don't know. If I'm gonna
listen to you. Like, no, I,

Unknown (53:25):
I do people usually do they usually listen, in the end,
typically, yeah, usually

I end up just like, kind of like, when
kind of breaking that liketension is usually I'll just,
I'm making it making trying tomake some more like humor of
their taste, you know, we'rekind of like, make it so that
they break down that wall alittle bit, to where I'm not
just the random blonde chick whoparachuted in starting bossing
them around, but you know, tryand just have fun with them. And

(53:51):
usually, I can get them tolighten up a little bit.

Yeah. Which sounds like a skill, that's a
skill set and is in itself,right, like making people
comfortable with what you'redoing. And also the fact that
you are a random blonde chick,who's telling them that they
need to do this in order toright protect their homes with
the land or what have you. Thatsounds like a really like maybe

(54:16):
a whole other conversationabout, like, how, you know,
like, even the people skillsthat you've probably honed over
the few years that you've beendoing this and just like
adapting to those differenttypes of situations.

Yeah, I think the the part that helps
the most is I don't feel thatstrong need to prove myself to
people like to people anymore,really anybody, you know,
obviously I'm always going tocontinue to strive to do better
and to work hard at my job. AndI do want the respect of my
peers, of course, but I think,you know, like, I'm at the point
now where it's like, I don'tcare if some random dude likes

(54:51):
me respects like, I mean,obviously, he's gonna have to
respect me but like, I don'tneed your approval. I don't like
my self esteem is not going tobe affected by whether or not
some random person And he likesme or thinks I should be there
or not. Because I think becauseI spent so much time proving to
myself that I do deserve to bethere that it's almost just like
entertaining part of the processtowards like, Alright, well, I'm

(55:11):
gonna just do it anyways, youthink what you want about it?

Yeah, yeah.
And that's a really good way tolook at it. It's like, and I
think, you know, that goes to aquestion that I have, because it
often comes up as the topic ofconfidence. And I think because
you started out in a careerwhere you were working with a
lot of men, it sounds like a lotof them did not accept you into

(55:36):
sort of the norms of what theirjob was, perhaps in decades
past. And so, you know, and thenas you progress to the hot shots
and where you are now, you know,luckily, it sounds like they're
really, they're really wonderfulcolleagues, just in general, it
doesn't matter if you're femaleor male. And you just, you know,
you're just the person doingyour job. And that's what

(55:59):
matters. And so but how did you,I guess, like be, how are you
able to be confident in what youwere doing and with where you
are going, in order to not letpeople stop you? Because I feel
like especially at thatbeginning, you know, that job at
the beginning where you wereworking on the engine? I was

(56:20):
curious about that. And like howyou just sort of got through it?
Because you knew you wanted todo this?

Yeah, I remember having one of the guys
in South Dakota, you know,somebody had mentioned like,
yeah, Madison's goals to besmokejumper someday. And I
remember him, like, like,looking at me, and he just was
like, Yeah, everybody wants tobe smokejumper. Like, that's not
going to happen. And I justremember thinking to myself,
like, you only make me want todo it more, like, you know, it's
not making me question if I cando it, it's just make, it's just

(56:52):
adding to the list of reasonswhy I have to do it now. You
know, and, and there definitelywas moments where I'm like, I
felt like I was doing it toprove a point. But then, I mean,
ultimately, like trying to provea point, like, that's not enough
motivation to get you throughsomething that challenging, you
know, you have to want it foryourself badly enough. And so I
think that was part of it, itwas just like, I want this, I'm
going to do this. And Ideveloped this mentality of

(57:14):
filtering pretty much anyone inanything out of my life that
wasn't supporting that goal. Andor that was taking away energy
from it, you know, it meantending relationships. It meant,
you know, feeling selfish attimes, which was a hard one, I
think, because I really, try notto ever be a selfish person, I
always want to do stuff forother people. But it meant, you
know, asking for what I neededwhen I needed it. And if people

(57:36):
were taking energy, instead ofgiving it it was either
conversation or your cut out.
And so I think it Yeah, thecollateral side of that was
like, it ended up clearing out alot of negativity in my life,
because I was willing to put mygoals first, which I had never
given myself permission to do.
But I knew I had to if I wantedto make it.

Yeah. And I think that's such good insight,
like even, you know, even youtalking about, you know, being
selfish. And I actually, it's, Iknow, you're not a mom right
now. But like, for me, as a mom,I think it's the conversation
that I was just having as well,because, you know, sometimes it
feels selfish to say no, or tosay, like, I don't have the

(58:22):
bandwidth to do that right now.
Because I'm focusing on this,and especially like, as a mom of
two little kids, it's like, it'sreally hard to, I guess, to have
that time. And to have thatmentality where I say, okay, no,
it's okay to do certain thingswhen I need to do them, because
I know this is what's best forme. And it's what's best for me,

(58:44):
not only now, but so I can be ahealthier person going forward
and go towards the goals that Iwant to achieve. So I really
respect that because I, I trymyself now to not even think of
it as being selfish to justalmost think of it as like a
form of self care. And havingthat mindset of like self worth,
because we do need to take careof ourselves in order to take

(59:08):
care of others and in,especially in the jobs that you
were doing, then in a job thatyou're doing now, like you are
completely taking care ofothers, right. Like you're
you're not only taking care ofyourself, but you're trying to
be aware and trying to be thebest co worker for your team at
that moment. But then also onsuch a broader scale for the

(59:29):
communities that you're helping.
And I think that's like a reallyimportant piece to hear. And
like I wish I wish more peoplemore women would talk about that
component because I thinksometimes as women especially
like we're, we just like want tohelp other people and we're

(59:49):
like, oh, let me take care ofyou or like let me you know,
figure out how I can, how I canhelp in a situation. It's like
Give, give give, and so it doesfeel sometimes so To take that,
that time or those moments orsay no, but I, I've tried now to
really shift it, which is reallyhard for me and I'm practicing,

(01:00:09):
but to shift it, so that it'slike, you know, it's helping me
say, Okay, well, I'm valuingmyself and valuing my vision for
the future, and my health andall these things. So I love
that. And I think that is reallywonderful to share. So I
appreciate that, you know,another thing that I wanted to

(01:00:29):
ask you about is like, for womenwho are listening, you know,
whether they're younger orolder, do you have any advice
for them that you have learned?
from your experience? Or thehard way? I'd love to hear it.
Yeah, I

Madison Whittemore (01:00:43):
think, you know, I'd say for anybody, but
you know, especially women, youknow, if there's something that
you've always wanted to do,we're always thought about
doing, you know, the only thingthat's ever going to satisfy
that is, is to do it, you know,maybe if it's not something that
seems realistic anymore,there's, there's gonna be other
things, but you know, we find somany, so many ways to make
excuses for why things are notgoing to work and, or why, why

(01:01:04):
it's not feasible, why it's notdoable. And there's always a
way, it's just a matter of ifyou're willing to put in the
work, you know, I call it thelong game of just because we
want something doesn't mean ifwe can't get in a year, it's not
possible, it's just Are wewilling to wait it out and to
put in the baby baby steps toget us there? You know, so I
think that's one of the biggestlessons learned, you know, I
tell that to my brothers, I tellthat to my friends, I tell that

(01:01:25):
to everybody, like, if you wantsomething, don't expect it next
year, don't even expect it infive years. But like, as long as
you don't stop expecting it, orstop planning on it as if it's
going to happen, thenabsolutely, it can happen. You
know, and for women, too, I'dsay like, there's something so
powerful about learning, findingthe way to put your value not
necessarily on what your bodylooks like, or what anything

(01:01:46):
like that, but what it can do,you know, like, find ways that
your body can work for you towhere it makes you feel strong,
I think, you know, like mostteenage girls, I struggled with
body image issues, and, youknow, just kind of eating
disorders, all sorts of thingslike that. And I think it was so
powerful for me to findsomething that required my body
to work for me, you know, andthat my value feels a lot more

(01:02:08):
based off of like, how strong Ifeel how healthy I feel how well
rested, I am then and what itlooks like is at this point,
like, almost irrelevant, I don'treally you know, have time for
that. But you know, it doesn'tmean you need to go have a
physical job, but it's just Ithink finding a way to have a
healthy relationship withourselves to seeing our bodies
is working for us not as thisthing that needs to make a

(01:02:30):
statement to the world by how itlooks.

Julie Berman - Host (01:02:32):
I love that. Yeah, and especially man,
those teen years, when you're,when you're in high school, and
everything else got and it isall focused on image and body,
you know, whether to too tall ortoo short or too thin or too fat
or whatever it is. It's like,you know, we we put our own

(01:02:54):
labels on ourselves, but I thinkthat's such an empowering
message to kind of get out ofthat mindset where we're looking
at all the possibleimperfections that exist or do
not exist. Yeah, our bodies.
And, and thinking about, like,yeah, like, what can my body
help me do? And what is thepower? You know, I have this

(01:03:17):
body like, what, what can I dowith it? Like, what power? Can
it give me what what is possibleto achieve? And I think that's a
really cool way. Like, I don'tthink I've ever actually thought
about that for my own body. Um,it's something you know, like, I
mean, I baby yeah, that's,that's something that allowed me
to do. But I mean, other thanthat, like, I don't know that

(01:03:37):
I've really ever thought aboutit that way. So it's a such a,
it's a really refreshingviewpoint. So I'm gonna think
about that. Yeah, and becauseit's important, and it's such a
nice, that's a really nice shiftaway from from what typically,
especially as like a younger, ayounger woman. I've read about
all those things, too. Yeah. Soand I know we're not alone.

(01:03:58):
Yeah. And yeah, okay. Well,that's wonderful advice. And I
want to also talk about, youknow, just to wrap up, I had
another quote that I, that Ireally loved, and it's a little
bit longer, but I'm going toread the whole thing, because I
think it's really wonderful. Soyou said, I occasionally forget
what it felt like not to be asmokejumper I have to remind

(01:04:20):
myself what it took to get here.
And how much of who I am now isnot because I'm a jumper, but
because of the road I took toget here. I was so worried that
I spent so many yearsromanticizing the job that when
I got here, I would bedisappointed or lose my drive.
instead. I feel like I finallystepped into the person I was

(01:04:43):
meant to be all along.

Yeah, for sure. I was I was always worried
about that. You know, like, isthis a goal that I've set and
I've spent all these yearsobsessing over that when I got
there like what I would I beunsatisfied, but I feel like I
always needed to keep chasingsomething. And thankfully, that
didn't happen. at all, like, Ifelt like I went through this
incredible journey to get here.
And now that I'm here, like,this is what I wanted. And I, I
should have trusted myself thatI knew deep down what I wanted,

(01:05:08):
you know, and then I was goingtowards that and I wasn't just
chasing some, you know, somehyped up goal that I was just
trying to go, you know, check abox that I did something cool.
And wow, you know, what anamazing challenge. But you know,
all the things that I was makingroom for in my life, both
healthy relationships,satisfying career, you know,
physical empowerment, all thesethings that I wanted ended up

(01:05:30):
this job gave me You know, itgave me the tools to learn what
I can do with my body, it gaveme the tools to learn how to
control my anxiety, it gave metools to learn how to be part of
a team, you know, the process,like have to get here and then
the process of working here,it's, it's taught me the skills
that I wanted to be the personthat I want it to be. So I'm

(01:05:51):
super grateful eternally toboth, you know, the people I
work with the trainers who gotme here, the job itself, the
leadership, you know, becauselike, I don't know, if there's
anything else that I could havegotten, gotten all these lessons
from the way I did, so I'm justconstantly humbled to be here.
That's awesome. And

I think that's so wonderful, because
it's something that I you know,I feel like so many people
search for, we all are searchingfor, sort of like where, where
we can be a pea in the pod, youknow, like, where we feel like
we fit with other people, andwhether it's, you know, in, in

(01:06:30):
smoke jumping, whether it's afear of like a, or something
like tech, or whether it's as ateacher or a nurse, or, you
know, whether you're an engineerof some sort, but it's like, you
know, we're all sort of tryingto figure out where is our
place, like, Where can we useour skill set, you know, to not
only benefit like ourselves inour lives, because we're doing

(01:06:53):
it all the time for so manyhours every day and every week,
but also to serve other peopleto serve, you know, our
communities, and just contributein the world. So I think that's
so incredible. And I think whatyou do is, like, besides being
amazing in so many capacities,and I just think you're so

(01:07:14):
brave, and all of yourcolleagues are so brave, um, but
like you're serving thecommunity in such an important
way. And, you know, we'reconstantly hearing about
wildfires, unfortunately. And soI feel like your job has so much
more importance, especially now,because of all the things that

(01:07:36):
are happening. And I reallyappreciate what you do. And I
think you and all of yourcolleagues here. Of course, it
was my pleasure. So interesting.
So I want to wrap up because Iwant to talk about if there are
women who are interested in thistype of career or a similar one,

(01:07:57):
what are some ways that they canget started. So the first thing
would be like, if there's anysort of formal education, or
even informal education thatyou'd recommend, and where they
could go to find that?

Absolutely.
And I say the very first andforemost thing, the most
important thing that I foundworked for me and work for other
people is networking. And thatmight be driving to your local
fire department and talking topeople because it's such a small
community in such a small worldthat if that's not the person
that's going to help you,they're going to know somebody
who will. So it's just a matterof talking, whether it's
reaching out to me or reachingout to somebody else that you

(01:08:34):
know, who knows somebody likethat will always usually pan
out, you know, if you want towork in wildland fire for the
Forest Service like I do,there's you can google like my
local Forest Service, you know,fire station, and you can find
the local, the one closest toyou, you can call them up, go
visit them. Most places lovethat, because that's how they
end up getting really goodpeople who want to be there. So

(01:08:55):
that's always what I say like,if you don't know, just start
asking and start looking around.
For women, especially, you cangoogle this thing. It's called
Women in wildland, and there'sthese different academies hosted
by federal government that willbasically give you all the entry
level training you need and canget you on a crew. There are all
women crews as well that you canget you on one of those for the

(01:09:16):
summer. The women in wildland isreally cool because you get your
basic classes and then you'llget to go through scenarios and
you're learning all the basicsand you're learning how to you
know how to start backfires, howto dig line, you're learning all
these things with other women.
And so for a lot of women, Ithink that that can create kind
of a judgment free, safe way todo that, where you're not like
oh, you know, you know, you'renot worried about what other

(01:09:38):
people are thinking of you somuch as you're all in the same
boat and you're learning withother typically like minded
women, and you can just Googlethat and you'll that'll pop
right up. You know, there's okaybasically the only training you
really need is you'll get yourread to get your red card which
is basically your qualificationto fight fire is 131 90 which is
a week long, basic firefighterclass, and then you'll do a pack

(01:09:59):
test, which is just your basicfitness test. Have you carry a
45 pound pack for three miles?
And it's the time requirementvaries depending on like,
location. I think it's likedifferent sea level versus
mountain. So I'm,

I can't remember. Okay. No, that's,
that's fine. That's helpful.
Yeah, that's quite the test tolike, I don't think I would do
very well. Like,

Unknown (01:10:24):
alright, like, I don't know, I
i've been carrying my like, youknow, 25 pound kid, but like,
luckily, he runs now. So I don'thave to carry him for miles and
miles.

You could you could crush it.

Unknown (01:10:38):
I got to think like that. Yeah. So okay. And then
what about resources that are,you know, as far as, like
associations, are

there any associations that people could
go find in and just, like, getmore information, or, as far as
other you know, like, evenpublications that you read,
books that are popular in yourfield,

there are a ton of books in our field,
there's a couple out there, Ididn't read a ton of smoke
jumping books, just because Ididn't I read about the history
of it, I didn't really read somuch just people's personal
accounts, because I wanted tojust to kind of go in almost
like, you know, with a freshplate, but you know, there's the
national wildland firefighterFoundation, and that's the
foundation that supports youknow, families of wildland

(01:11:23):
firefighters or firefighters,they get sick or injured, that
sort of thing. That's a reallygreat cause for anybody who just
wants to look into that. Andthat's the it's a great network
of people who are family membersof firefighters who were in fire
themselves, that sort of thing.
So I definitely would want togive a shout out to them. And,
you know, otherwise, I'm notlike an avid reader. So I don't
have a ton of bookrecommendations. But

Unknown (01:11:45):
that's okay. If Yeah, I'd say no worries, if there
aren't any.

Yeah, there's quite a bit of cool
history on the internet, too. Ifyou look up the history of smoke
jumping, there's some reallycool stuff you can learn, you
know, the smokejumpers were theones who trained the military
how to parachute, which Ithought was a super cool thing
to find out. There's a lot ofreally cool history. And so I
you know, anybody who'sinterested in that I say, any
area, you're gonna go work, asmuch as you can learn about the
history, there's probably somepretty cool, pretty cool
stories. And then there's a lotof really good books on fires,

(01:12:12):
you know, unfortunately, a lotof them are tragedy fires, but
that's what all of our current,you know, fire, just safety
measures and tactics are basedoff of is other people learning
hard lessons that willultimately hopefully keep us
safe. So there's, there's somegreat books on Granite Mountain,
which I know you're familiarwith, because that happened in
Arizona, the Granite MountainHotshots, who then died, and
then there's South Canyon firefrom Colorado, there's, there's

(01:12:35):
quite a few of those as well. Solots of good fire books out
there. Okay, thank

you. And I wanted to also ask, because I
didn't get to this, but I feellike it is a really, like in
particular for your job, becauseyou are risking your life and
your colleagues are risking yourlife like every time you go do
your job. Why do you keep doingit every day? Like what is it

(01:12:59):
about it that you love so much?
Where you wake up in the morningand you go for like a massive
run and you do all theseworkouts? And you just you keep
doing it? What What do you lovethe most?

I think one of my favorite quotes is Yon
Levin, Van Zandt, she said, if Iif you don't have a little bit
of pee running down your leg,then you're not living big
enough. And I love that becauseI feel like it's so right to
where like, you know, havingthat excitement having that,
like, every day is different,you don't know where you're
gonna wake up the next day, youdon't know where you're gonna
be, by the end of the evening,you know, you don't know who

(01:13:33):
you're gonna be with what you'regonna be doing. And you know, so
many of that, that excitementthat just things are always
changing. Like, that's a ton offun. And I think having that
that element is a big part ofit. And then also, just like,
for me, I always think, youknow, when you get done with a
long shift, and you're campedout somewhere super remotely,
it's just maybe you and ahandful of other smokejumpers,
you know, and you're all sittingthere exhausted, just finished

(01:13:56):
eating some dinner, and you'rejust looking at the stars. And
you're just you feel theremoteness of where you are, and
you feel just how truly uniqueof a situation you're in where
there's absolutely nothing likethat, you know, it's such a
like, I consider it like one ofthose, like the few remaining
like old Western trades whereit's, you know, it's so
physical. It's, it's so youknow, timeless it seems like you

(01:14:17):
know, it started in the late30s, early 40s just one of those
things that you know, peoplehave been doing for years and
years before you and I've beenin that same exact situation,
staring at the stars feeling howremote they are feeling how just
disconnected from the crazyworld and how bonded they are
with the people around them. Ithink that's that feeling really
just erases any of the stressor, you know, fear or exhaustion

(01:14:40):
from the day because you justhave that chance to kind of get
grounded and realize how luckyyou are to be where you're at.

Unknown (01:14:46):
Yeah,

that sounds incredible. And thank you for
sharing that. Yeah. So I want towrap up and we're trying
something new to wrap up. So Iwould love to get your your
jargon. that you use in yourfield or the verbiage that you
use in your field. And give usan example of what that would

(01:15:07):
sound like. And it can be in anysituation, and then translate it
for us so that we can understandit.

Okay, let's see. I think what I'll do is
I'll give you what a spotterbriefing is. And the spotter
briefing is what the experiencesmokejumper in the plane
basically says to us before wejump to the fire, you know,
before we leave the plane to goon the ground, and then when I'm
done with it, Allah, I'll giveyou my interpretation of it. And
keep in mind, I'm not a spotter.
I've just gotten this briefingso many times.

Unknown (01:15:37):
That's okay.

We know any different Yeah, no, we won't
know any different. So noworries. That sounds great. All
right.

So when it's your turn to go, you'll slide up
to the front of the plane. Andthe spotter will say two jumpers
ready and tight. And you'll nodand say, Alright, hook up. And
we'll hook up our static linecables to the head to the cable
and they'll go all right, yousee the streamer see the jump
spot and will not if we saw it,which we usually do. Alright,

(01:16:06):
you see the streamer, see thejump spot or flying standard
pattern into the wind 3000 feethas it's on the ground, there's
a fence that runs along thebottom of that drainage. Be
careful, the winds are pushingpretty hard Lee sides, you do
not go leeside no matter whatyou do. All right. Time on the
streamers, we got about 55seconds. We're getting quite a
bit of a push up high from thenorth. So keep that in mind when

(01:16:28):
you open up that you're notfacing downwind. Alright, do you
have any questions? We'll shakeyour heads if we do or we don't.
All right, we're at 3000 feethave you armed and armed is
basically have we turned on ourreserve parachute. So we'll if
we haven't already. We'll turnthat on. Okay. And he'll say,
All right. 3000 feet, you'reclear. I'll clear you in the
door. All right, we're on Final3000 feet, get in the door. And

(01:16:50):
then you'll get in the door.
You'll check your harness andyour your parachute to make sure
everything's hooked up. You'llgo drug release cutaway reserve,
lower RSL. And you'll grab thedoor handle and they'll say, all
right, you're clear. All right,get ready. And we says Get
ready. You put your hands out,you get a slap on the back, and
then you're out. And then thenext person gets in the door.
And then they get a slap andthen they go up, so I jumbled a
little bit.

Unknown (01:17:15):
Oh my gosh, I just like my heart, as you were saying and
describe your things like myheart's beating faster. That's
like imagining falling out.

I'm not good with heights or plains. My
views. Make sense? Right. Butyeah, that was awesome. Thank
you so much for sharing that.
That was perfect way to end ourconversation today. So thank you
again, Madison, for coming andsharing what you do as a
smokejumper. It was sofascinating. And also thank you
so much just for your servicefor what you do for all of us.

(01:17:46):
Yeah, thank

you so much for yours and sharing all these
stories. And you know, weappreciate it. And yeah, you're
doing amazing work as well.

Hey, everybody, thank you so much for
listening to women with cooljobs. I'll be releasing a new
episode every two weeks. So makesure you hit that subscribe
button. And if you love theshow, please give me a five star
rating. Also, it would mean somuch if you share this episode

(01:18:18):
with someone you think wouldlove it or would find it
inspirational. And lastly, doyou have ideas for future shows?
Or do you know any Rockstarwomen with cool jobs? I would
love to hear from you. You canemail me at Julie at women with
cool jobs calm or you can findme on Instagram at women who

(01:18:38):
will jobs again that's womenwill jobs. Thank you so much for
listening and have an incredibleday.

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Dateline NBC

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Smokejumper Who Fights Wildland Fires, with Madison Whittemore

40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season