Connie Noonan Hadley: Loneliness, Psychological Safety, Team Effectiveness, AI | Work 20XX Ep33 - Work 20XX with Jeff Frick

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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In three, two, one.
Hey. Welcome back everybody Jeff Frick here
coming to you for anotherepisode of ‘Work 20XX’
We turn the calendar to 2025.
I don't believe itgot here so fast.
Well, we're excitedto have our next guest.
She's been an expert in the field,
both academically and writing for a lot of institutions

(00:22):
and great articles and research.
So she's joining us all the way from Boston
through the magicof the internet.
It's Connie Noonan Hadley
She is the Founderand Chief Scientist
at the Institutefor Life at Work,
and also an Associate Professorat Boston University
writes a lot for Harvard Business Review.
Connie, great to see you.
Thank you so much.
Great to see you. And good to be here.

(00:43):
Yeah. Thanks forthanks for coming on.
So you've beenat this for a while
and most recently,congratulations.
You had a cover story,[We’re Still Lonely at Work: Harvard Business Review, Nov-Dec 2024]
on the Harvard Business Review[We’re Still Lonely at Work: Harvard Business Review, Nov-Dec 2024]
on loneliness at work.[We’re Still Lonely at Work: Harvard Business Review, Nov-Dec 2024]
How did you get involvedwith loneliness?
We think about loneliness interms of mental health frequently
But I don't know that
it always comes upin the context of work.

(01:03):
So what is specialabout loneliness and work,
and what are some of the thingsyou found in your research?
Well thank you, yes.
One colleague referred to meas the ‘Queen of Loneliness’
which is
Is not really the titleI was going for, but,
and also, I want toacknowledge, that yes,
it was a great thrill to have our article featured
on the cover of HarvardBusiness Review's magazine.

(01:26):
That was research done with Sarah Wright,
who is an amazing Professor at the University of Canterbury in New Zealand.
And so I don't wantto take full credit for that.
What we were really trying to figure out
is not just why work loneliness happens,
and we knowit's happening quite a lot.
So Gallup's latest survey of the global workforce

(01:47):
said about 20% of peoplein the workforce
are feeling lonely,on a regular basis.
So we know it's happening a lot.
So we wanted to find outmore about why.
More importantly,because I spend so much time
talking to managers,
I wanted to find out, like,what can we do about it?
What should we betelling companies
to do to address this issue?

(02:07):
And Sarah has been studyingloneliness at work
for a long time, more in the scholarly literature.
And so it was a great combination
between the two of us.
You know, me spending a lot more timetalking to managers
and her spendingso much more time
thinking about it from a theoretical standpoint.
And we, it’s our second study together.
We've also written two bookchapters on work loneliness.
So we've really got a thing going,

(02:28):
I guess we’re the ‘Queens of Loneliness’, actually,
I shouldn't take this sole title there.
[laughter]
So why does itwhy does it matter?
I mean, I'm sure the cynics outthere will be going,
you know, you're at work,you're getting paid to be there.
One thing to be lonely at home, but.
Why is there an expectation thatthat you shouldn't be lonely?
Or why is loneliness a
an emotion that somebody at workshould be even worried about?

(02:49):
It's a greatand valid question,
and I do get that a lot.
So I'll come at it though,by answering it
how I really got intostudying loneliness
was not direct, at all.
I actually started off studyingpeople who love their jobs
and why.
And then mysecond project
when I was in on my doctoral program was,
how do people do really, really tough jobs

(03:10):
and not burnout?
And the answerto both of those questions,
how do you love your joband how do you avoid burnout?
Turned out to be havinga really strong connection
and social support systemat work with your colleagues.
And that really was the focusof my research for a while
was so how do we
create moreteams
and organizations that have this kind of

(03:31):
interwebing amongthe coworkers
and so I could tell it was good for outcomes that mattered
when it came to job satisfactionand lack of burnout.
But over time,what we've realized is
those social support networksalso really make a difference
for the bottom line.
They help with creatingmore innovative solutions.
They helpwith reducing conflict.

(03:51):
They help with inclusion.
They help with creating a more meritocracy
Like, you know,
there's like a better systemthan just worrying about
organizational politicsor other things that may be,
a little bit, below the surface.
And so having a stronginterconnected workforce
is really good for
the bottom line and for each individual employee.
So then the problem,of course, is that, well,

(04:12):
It’s not consistent across workplacesthat this is in place.
And there are many, many people.
And this was before the pandemic,
we were studying this
that don't feelthat way.
And they were kind of like this hidden,
invisible populationof suffers.
And that was a real problem for me.
You know, I wanted to helpbring this into the light,

(04:33):
normalize the factthat it's happening
because it's stillreally stigmatized.
And do somethingabout it.
Again, let's, you know, really
So I'm really trying
to always take this actionorientation in my work.
Right, right.
So I’ve pulled a couple of the myths,
that you had listedin the article
that I wantedto highlight.
One wasthat, you know,
loneliness, can be solved by in-person work.

(04:55):
You say that's not necessarily true.
Teams by themselveswill solve loneliness.
You're like, no, that's not necessarily true.
And that lonelinessis a personal problem,
not an organizationalproblem.
And I would imagine
a lot of people
would grab on tothat one
because I think, you know,
their first inclination might be,
this is you, this isn't us.

(05:15):
So how or what did you find out
in terms of dispellingsome of those myths?
Well, the first one on thethe remote work, issue.
This, you know, I think it'sbeen unfairly maligned,
that, you know, remotework is the problem here.
And it's way too simple of an explanation.
There are far more factorsinvolved in that and
I was just reviewingsome of the data

(05:36):
across multiple studies.
And even in my own research.
The answer is not
five days inthe office, in person
is what leads to lower loneliness.
You do see some perils associatedwith five day remote work
if the people arenever in person,
but hybrid work seems to belike a really good compromise

(05:58):
you know, in terms of workplace loneliness.
But in some of my studies,
I even see thatthe in-person folks
are less connectedthan those who are remote,
even the ones who are fully remote.
So it's,it's variable.
And the myths we were trying to dispel
was that it's like x equals, you know,
or X will determine Y.
Remote work will determine loneliness.

(06:20):
That's just not true.
Nor will in-person workdetermine connectivity.
It's more than that.
So that wasmyth number one.
The second one about teamsnot being the answer
is based on some earlier research
I did with Mark Mortensen out of INSEAD’s Business School
and we have been studyingteams for a long time,
team effectiveness just in general.
And, we were just reallysurprised that

(06:42):
so many people who are working on teams
were feeling lonely and disconnected
from their colleagues,even on their own team.
And that was a puzzle to usbecause we thought
because we thought, well,at least the team is
is going to providethat level of connection.
And what we found isthat's not always the case.
And a lot of it’s because of how we design teams these days.
They're designedin such a way

(07:03):
that they really aren’t promoting long term connections,
or even the amount of time that
and opportunity that people needto get to know each other.
So when you think about like an agile team, for example,
that’s like you know, maybe 2 or 3 weeks long,
you can develop some bondsfrom an intense work project
in a short amount of time.
I'm not saying that,
but if you want to have like
a sustained relationshipwith people,

(07:23):
that just may not be sufficient,
especially if you have somebody who's
more reticent tonot as gregarious,
not as open
Right
to others, they need more time to warm up.
And other things like
just the fact that we're staffing people on team
on multiple teamsat once.
Mark [Mortensen] studiesmulti team membership.
And again that makes a lot of sense
for an efficiency
from an efficiency standpoint.

(07:44):
But it just means that you'reconstantly scattered.
You know, it's like havingjust so many different
people that you're tryingto stay connected with.
And it can really erode your ability to invest in those
in those connections.
So that's what's on the team front.
And then finally,
this notion of it's an individual problem
is one that we hear a lot,
particularly from managers
who don't really buyinto the fact

(08:05):
that this might be a problemthey need to tackle.
They just don't really feel likethis is their responsibility.
And the issue is, is that
you can't be lonely
I mean,
I don't knowif this makes sense,
but you can't be lonelyby yourself.
So
And what I don't mean by that is that there
there is in fact a difference between being by yourself and being lonely.
And those are notalways the same.

(08:26):
But what I mean by‘you can't be lonely by yourself’
is that it's a reaction tothe feedback
from other people
[Jeff] Right[Connie] around you
and the culture and the norms
and the systems that you are living and working in.
And so
If that's your responsibility if
if the way we operate
as an organizationis your responsibility,
then that’s where your culpability in termsof creating connection is.

(08:48):
Because, you know,
if I'm lonely,
it means that I'm getting negative feedbackfrom my environment.
This is not a place toto reach out and connect to people.
This's not a place where maybe
I particularly am welcomed or included,
or maybe it's a place
I'm just really not valued as an individual.
And so if I'm getting thatfeedback, like
I can't correct it by myself,
[Jeff] Right[Connie] I can't
I can't change that.
The individual cannot.

(09:10):
Yeah. That's interesting.
Yeah. That's interesting.
So you've got on your website,
you’ve got like a loneliness assessment tool.
With some really interestingquestions that I think
kind of tease out the differences thatyou were just talking about.
So I got it here. So like
‘People in my organizationunderstand who I really am.’
I mean, wow, that is a super deep question.
Depending on howhow deep you want to go there.

(09:31):
There are enough people at work
who would have my backif I needed support.
Again, a really,
well crafted question to getpeople to really think.
And the answers are never, rarely, sometimes, often, or always,
and then another onevery powerful.
I feel left out by othersin this organization.
So I think it's
it's an interestingtie back to what you just said.
You can't feel lonely at work by yourself

(09:53):
that it is really more this
kind of reflection of what
you're getting backfrom the people around you.
Right.
And so therefore it's a shared collective problem
And those questions, by the way,
that I developed with, with Sarah Wright as well,
and there's, these are freely available to people
if they want to usethem for their own research.
But they were
originally whatwe were using

(10:15):
as a, as a scholar
a scholarly field
was an adaptation of
the UCLA Loneliness Scale,
which has long been usedfor decades
to measure lonelinessin the general population, so
Often it was used just
for example, to understand, like what's happening
with senior citizensin a community.
But we did have to over time,we realized, you know,
some of those relationships,

(10:35):
the questionsabout like friends, for example.
You'll see we don't really use that word
in the work context.
We have to adapt and understand the fact
the relationships are different.
Expectations are different.
So there are parallelsto what you might expect
from a family memberor a friend outside of work.
So, for example,when we say like
they understand who I really am

(10:55):
we don't necessarily meanlike every aspect of yourself.
Right.
But if you're putting up a facade
or if people aren'tasking questions that allow you
to reveal somethingabout your true
professional backgroundand skills and abilities,
as well as your personal interests,
then you know
that’s where you can feel lonely at work.
Or similarly,
if you don't feel likepeople have your back,

(11:16):
as you know,there’s
It's inevitable.
There will be some level ofcompetition in an organization.
We are all tryingto succeed and get ahead.
But if you feel likeyou are literally on your own
and you're strugglingwith something,
or you need some support to
to get that, you know,
so people advocating for you to make that next leap in your career,
and nobody's there for you.

(11:38):
Like, it's
It's a really painful experience.
And I think that does, again,have some parallels
in the friend and family, arena.
But, you know, it's a different
if it's a different set of pressures that we feel at work
and the isolation, it's
It's really hard to achieve and succeed
by yourself again at workwithout some kind of ally.

(12:01):
Yeah.
And you offersolutions, right?
Because you're a solution oriented, person.
So what are some ofthe solutions
that people can put intoplace to reduce loneliness?
Well, we first always are going to advocate doing diagnostic.
So figure out what's going on.
And that's why we made this
these questions available to anyone

(12:21):
because sometimes people will try to guess
who's lonely, you know, by looking at things that don’t
aren't really indicators.
And that could be on a culture survey like
people might use, like a very general culture question, like,
you know, this is a culture of belonging.
And that's a good start.
But it's not reallyat the individual level
of whether you feel like
I personally have peoplewho have my back or not.

(12:43):
So I think you want to get a little bit
more directedin your diagnostics.
The next thing that we talked about is
designing slackinto your workflow.
And this is usually not welcomenews to senior managers.
But it's a reality check.
You need time to actually talk to other people
and that requires,

(13:05):
releasing a little bitof that time pressure.
Now, I think it's worth it.
I think you'll get paidback in the long run.
But, you know, you can't have it both ways.
If an organization is like,
Oh, my people are working ten hour days,
but I really want themto be connected.
That's like,
that's not reallya realistic request of them
unless they want to spend the 11th hour

(13:25):
hanging out together.
You do have to kind of be recognizing that.
And we heard this a lot.
We did a collected, stories from people.
Of times they felt connectedand disconnected at work and
there were these beautifulaudio transcripts
that I couldlisten to.
People talked a lotabout how, like
everybody's running around like crazy here.
Like, there's just no time.
So that's another one.
We also spent a lot of timein the article
talking about building some kindof social infrastructure.

(13:47):
And one of the advantagesthat we had in our recent study
is that we actually testedspecific types of
opportunities that organizations could offer.
There were eight of them,
and this is just based on
collating what was happeningin the marketplace
and what some
what we've seen in some of our previous studies.
So, a range of things,like all the way from
meeting chit chat to doing like a retreat.

(14:10):
And we asked people like,
What's happening in your current organization?
How often are you having these?
And how many of these different things that you have
have been having?
And we can see just this such a stark difference.
It's one of the biggest statistical results in our study, that
the people who are
reported being highly lonelyin our sample
had far fewer of those opportunities.

(14:30):
Now, that doesn't necessarilymean cause and effect.
You know,it doesn't mean like,
okay, throw a bunch of events out there
and you'll automaticallymake everybody less lonely.
But it's a good step.
And so we also provide someinformation about why it helps, I mean.
Getting into a routine of offering well crafted opportunities
that are based, by the way, on employee input.
So like make sure you're actually

(14:50):
asking people whatthey want to do.
It reduces some of the strain on people
of trying to figure this out on their own.
Right.
It provides that forum.
It gives a sense of certainty,
a sense of welcome,
a sense of routine,
a sense of priority.
A lot of companiesare trying to do that.
But we want to make surethey're investing in them,
whether they're doing itin person or remotely.
So that's the other thing to,

(15:10):
you know, don't give up on remote work.
There's so muchyou can do as well
to build connectionthat way.
Right,Right.
When Covid first hit,
we had a bunch of remote work specialists on
because no one
was very familiar with
hybrid and remote.
So we brought in a bunchof remote people
to talk about best practices.
And Darren Murph, at that time,he was a GitLab said.
Just a really amazing thing too,
He’s like a) be intentional about everything you do

(15:33):
which reinforces what you said.
You know, you just don't throweveryone in a bullpen and
now that's culture
and they're all going to get together.
The other thing that I listened to you
in another one of your podcasts is
you talked about the roleof silence and,
and the role of managersmisinterpreting silence as
‘Everything is Okay.’
And again, it goes backto that intentionality,

(15:53):
You have to draw itout of people.
You have to spend the time.
And the other piecethat you talked about,
is doing it during the workday, right?
This expectation that
a lot of these social activities
and these teamwork things happen after work
or I think you pointed out so well
if you cram them in the workday.
Now, do I have to do my real work

(16:14):
after the kids go to bed or,
you know, at fourin the morning
or these types of things?
Oh, and it was Darren's point
was really about the async.
What async allows you to do
is to move a lot of the kind of
tedious, routine, rote, you know, things,
out of the face to face,
out of the direct connection time
so that you can invest that time
into doing these types of things

(16:35):
that build bonds, build strength,
build relationship,
you know, strengthen the team.
So it's a really
it's a really easy thing to take from the all remote world
because they had to do it.
They had to be good at what,
what all businessesshould be good at,
which fundamentallyis communication.
Yes, and there are plenty of examples of those companies out there
started remote firstand are still remote first.
Who have thisincredibly connected culture

(16:57):
because you're right they,they had to figure that out.
And I wish those lessons were being adopted in other places more.
You know I wanted to,to also just pick up on a point to
that you referencedin terms of,
of the silence.
Again, because it'sso stigmatized,
you probably have no ideawho's lonely.

(17:17):
I mean, I could beincredibly lonely,
even though I'm sitting here having a very,
you know, open, lively conversation with you.
Those are not the tellsof whether someone's lonely.
And you have to really get intowhat's happening in their,
in their world to, to understand that.
And then even if you do find outwho's lonely,
the challenge is that onceyou've become lonely,

(17:39):
it's harder to getthose people to engage,
even if you offersocial opportunities.
And it's like a double hitbecause they become
and this we knowfrom studies of loneliness
outside of the work world as well,
that you just sort of develop an armor, a defensiveness.
You know, I remember listening to one of the,the participants tell a story,
and he.
The question was you know

(17:59):
Tell us a time when you felt disconnected?
And he said, well,I don't feel disconnected
because I don't needrelationships at work.
And then he went on to talk about how
everybody gets togetherwithout him.
And so it clearly wasbothering him,
you know and he wanted to be part of those,
you know, get togethers or just chit chats.
But now at this point,

(18:21):
he turned it intolike his choice
that he didn't want to do that.
And so, you know, whenyou understand that psychology,
you realize that'sthat's why this is not an easy fix.
Because not only do you have to design appropriate things
as the general populationof what your workforce wants
you have to really reach out
and connect with those peoplewho may be resistant,

(18:41):
It's better obviously, like everything else in organizations,
if you have a clean slate.
Like if you’re starting an organization from scratch,
you can prevent a lot of loneliness.
But if you have an established organization,
especially a big one,
you probably have tons of itgoing on right now.
And now you got to do that
extra work of tryingto remediate it
and break down those walls.
Right.
Well, let's shiftgears a little bit

(19:01):
to talk about somethingthat's very related
but slightly different.
Which I've actually spenta lot more time talking about.
And that's psychological safety.
And you've defined it really simply
just make it safe for people,
for employees to speak up.
I talk about it oftenreally around risk taking
because, you know, the way business is moving so quickly,
you know, you really needto leverage the experience and,
and kind of the depth of attitudes and life experience and perception

(19:25):
so that people will ideate much quicker,
have a lot more different ideasthat you'll get to better
solutions faster.
But really, it kind of goesback to this lonely thing and
how do you help draw it out?
We had an interestingconversation,
about meetings and, you know, trying to
draw people into the meeting to contribute.
And it's this really

(19:46):
delicate balance where
you don't want to bully them into participating.
You don't want to make themfeel compelled to have to.
But truth be told, sometimes people need
that little tug, you know,they need the pump to be primed
to get over that initial reaction,
to get into a positionwhere they can
start to realize some of these benefits.
Right
That's true.

(20:07):
You know, people talk about it,nudges and so forth.
I mean, we have this winning formulafor creating psychological safety
that Amy Edmondsonwho I have to give full props to
really put this concept on the map,
building on the work of Bill Kahn and others earlier.
So Amy and I and Mark Mortensen,who I already mentioned,
wrote an article for HBR[Harvard Business Review]
on how to create psychological safety.

(20:28):
And we promoted thiswinning formula.
And it's pretty simple.
But again, I think
underestimated in terms of how hard it is to accomplish and so
the winning formula is
and we have likethis little math diagram.
But it says the first thingyou need that rationale.
So as a leader to bring outsomeone to speak up,
you have to clarify,like why they should

(20:49):
not just for the good of the team
or good ofinnovation,
you know, some broad, high level sort of goals
like for them personally.
And so, you know, again,
we're all at some pointself-interested as well.
If we can make this case for how this is going to help my career,
help me get my jobdone more efficiently,
you know, that’s going to get my attention.
But then you also have to provide
like a really clear invitation.

(21:10):
That's the second variable.
And invitation meansso example
In a meeting it's
I can't stand it when there's like five minutes left in a meeting
And the leader will be like
‘Okay, any questionsor any comments?’
you know and I was like,
Who's going to start that?
Everyone wants to geton to the next meeting,
[Connie] you know, like [Jeff] Right, right.
You haven’t created a real forumfor people to speak up.
So you need to be really thoughtful
and again, intentional aboutwhat are the structures

(21:31):
for people to addthat contribution to them.
And it could be likea separate chain
or it could be aone-on-one or whatever it is.
But like you actually haveto provide
like a really clear channelto speak up,
and then you have to
at least double,maybe triple
the amount of positive reinforcement that you give.
And that's also wherea lot of leaders fall down.
They may ask for inputand then not like the input they get

(21:52):
which will quellany further contributions.
Or they just fail to saythank you, you know.
And so there are a lot of ways that,
that psychological safety can be accomplished,
but it requires the discipline
and the follow throughthat is often absent.
And then just to bridge my two
those two topics that you just covered,
I also studied psychological safetyand loneliness in combination

(22:15):
and I have multipledata sets
where there's a very, very strong correlation
between that psychological safety
and a sense of connectionand lack of loneliness.
And conversely,
the most lonely peoplein my studies
also have low psychological safety.
And so, you know,
we're still debating in the research
whether it's an exactwhat we call like a mediator

(22:37):
like this is a
they seek psychological safety,
the thing that makes people less lonely
or is it just a modifieror an enhancer?
To that, so we don't know.
I don't know that exactly,
but I will tell you that it'scertainly highly related.
And I think thatyou can think about it as a risk
to even just reach outand ask someone to coffee.

(22:59):
And having psychological safetywill make you feel less vulnerable
by makingthat kind of overture,
because you'll have seenin other ways
people can take a risk.
They can take a riskand made a mistake, or
offer that really tough criticismin a meeting.
And if I'm seeingall that happening,
then I'm probably goingto extrapolate and say,
‘Well, actually, I could probably also

(23:19):
ask this person to chat with me
and they're not going to reject me.
So, you know,for me,
psychological safety is not the cure all.
But like, it'scertainly provides
so many varied types of benefits to organizations.
And one of the things you’ve talked about quite a bit is
is modeling and signalingand really leaders
demonstrating through behaviors and actions

(23:40):
not only within the meeting
when somebodyhas an idea
that's maybe not so smart or,
you know, how do they react to it,
but also who gets promoted,
who gets to goto all the cool events.
And so these behaviorsare almost more important than
than the rulesand the regulations
and what you actually sayyou're trying to do.
Well, as with everything else,
people are watching their manager and their leaders

(24:01):
to discern what's really appropriate here,
what's really going to helpyou get ahead and
picking up on the, the relationship building,
if your manageris not
not only setting a time setting aside time for you
to connect with other people,
but they're not doingit themselves,
then you're getting a mixedsignal that this probably isn't,
a high value,at least to your manager.
But yes, and psychological safety

(24:22):
that's another big area where I,
I love speaking to senior leaders because
they bring me in oftento say, like,
how can we get our people to speak up more?
And I turn the tables on them,and I usually try to give them
like an exerciseor some simulation
where they're likeperforming an actual work task.
And I'll be like,
‘Well, how many of you spoke up?’

(24:42):
you know, or the last timeyou were meeting with your boss?
So last time you metwith the board of directors,
did you bite your tongue?
It's so easy to say these things,
but really hard, no matter what level you are in the organization
to take those kinds of risks.
And so the best managersare those who do that.
And I have another new area of researchthat are playing around with is,
this notion of being secure.

(25:02):
I've always had this theorybased on my own personal experience
as a junior manager
at General Mills in Minneapolis.
Two fabulousmanagers, but
one in particular was so secureand he really taught me
how importantit was
to have a manager
who was secure enoughto allow you to make mistakes.
And that's really a great way to create
that sense of psychological safety.

(25:24):
The question is also,
how do you make yourmanagers more secure?
How do you help thembe able to speak up?
How do you help them
to admit their own mistakes
so they can enable other people to do so?
So that's some future stuff.
[Connie] I’m working on[Jeff] Wow, We don't hear much about that.
You don't hear about doing it for the managers
so they can model it for the,for the other people.
I wonder, have you ever looked
at psychological safety in terms of

(25:45):
intrinsic motivation?
There was a great interview.
Actually, Toby RedshawI got it written down,
talked about discretionary effort,
and a lot of peopledon't talk about these things
in termsof discretionary effort.
But his point was,
if someone is showing up,
they're going to give you X,
but if they're actually motivated
and really want to contribute
and excited about the opportunity,

(26:06):
you know, what is the difference in their effort or their output.
Is it 10%, 20% ?2x, 10x ?
You know such a big difference.
And I think that safety.
And to allow me to invest,
for my own cognitive dissonance.
So I don't,you know
invest invest investand then just get
slapped down or beat down
because I make a mistake.
Have you ever tied it back together with

(26:28):
engagement and employee satisfaction?
How do those things relate?
Yes, definitely.
On engagement and satisfaction.
People with psychological safetyare far less likely to quit.
And they'll stay with the team that has it,
even if they’re in an organization
where it's not that prevalent.
You know, so they may even sacrificea little bit of career mobility
just to stay with itbecause
it is good.
I think you have to ask yourself

(26:49):
if you're not promoting psychological safety
again, I would questionyourself like,
is it because I am afraid? I'm afraid of my own reputation?
But also you have to ask yourself,
What is your philosophy aboutthe people that work for you?
Is your underlying philosophythat people are
lazy or you know,not very smart
or not willing to put in the that effort

(27:11):
unless you sort of stand over them and, you know,
corral them and manage themin a really intentionally way.
Or do you believe that your job is to release
their natural interest in being productive and high performing and
I think my evidence would saythat given the chance,
most people have that drive.
They want to put in the discretionary effort.

(27:32):
If I mean, going back to,as I mentioned,
my very first study in my PhDprogram was on loving your job.
And who doesn'twant to love their job?
I really believe that that actually is
what most of us would like.
And when you do,
you know, put in that extra effort.
Do you know, the other wayyou can get people to
put in theextra effort
is to make them feel bonded to each other.
So this other study,

(27:54):
that Marilyn Zakhour from Cosmic Centaurs in the Middle East
and I just published.
We were lookingat rituals, team rituals,
and we were amazed at the degree to which
these teams had these rituals,
whether it’s professionalinformation sharing
or personal information sharing,
their whole commitmentto the team escalated.
So it, yes also increasedtheir psychological safety.

(28:15):
Yes, it also increased their personal satisfaction.
But what I lovedwas that it was like,
I'm now really in itfor this team.
So that's when you get peoplegoing above and beyond.
In some ways like you could have
the same exact purpose,the same exact set of goals,
one team that feels connected,another team that doesn't.
And you will see that differencein the pursuit
and the intrinsic motivationthat you just mentioned.

(28:36):
Right, right.
And you know, and that's
that's, I think that'sjust great for everybody.
Right? Right.
A tale as old as time, right?
Army, Army men fight forthe other person in the foxhole.
They don't fight for the politicians back
back in the Capitol.
Before we get off psychological safety, though,
I do want to ask you one more thing about it.
In terms of, just the environment
in which we live.
You know, starting with Covid.

(28:57):
And if you remember back, it was always like
we’re six weeks away
we’re six weeks away we’re six weeks away for,
you know, two yearswe were six weeks away.
We get through that.
Now there's the whole kind of back and forth about hybrid work.
Is it on?Is it off?
We have all of this crazinessgoing on in Washington DC
and just this barrage of headlines
like Him or Hate Him.
It's just this barrage ofof change and uncertainty.

(29:20):
So that's kind of a, you know,
a foundational,
rocking to
our core a little bit
in terms of what we can expectwhen we get up in the morning
compared to what we had yesterday.
How have you seen,you know, kind of
managing external shocks,inputs for managers
to have this kind ofextra layer of complexity,

(29:42):
and ambiguity that they have to help manage through with their people.
First, I'll just, I'll echoyour observation of the
escalation of uncertainty and change
that has happened recently in the United States.
You know, andacross the world.
But I'm more of an experton what we're doing here.
I've had a lot of conversationswith senior leaders in the last few weeks,
and I'm just thinking about also a

(30:03):
conversation I had with a colleagueat a different university yesterday.
I think right nowwe're in a period of,
some people are thrilled,
and that's that's great.
Some people are really scared,and there are a lot of people
who are waiting for moreinformation before they act.

(30:24):
And this is, in fact,going back to that article
on psychological safetythat I wrote with Amy and Mark,
that we wrote that as a reaction to the layoffs
that started happening at a wide scaleafter the pandemic receded,
because we knew
that any time people were scared about their jobs
anytime job security is at risk,
psychological safety tends to to go way down

(30:44):
and it's, you know, natural.
It’s about risk taking.
We're just going to reduce our own risk
the scarier and more chaoticthe world seems.
So I do think that this is the time
to get that same messagewe got out then
to everyone, particularly the leaders,
to say that
this is not the time that you want to let people retrench

(31:05):
and go underground and silent,
because this is the time when
to meet the challenges of today
to meet thechange and
resolve the uncertainty.
You actually do wanteverybody contributing.
Right
It seems counterintuitivethat the scarier things get
the more you you have to invest in this.
But it is true.
You know, when you think about

(31:26):
what do people look forwhen they're scared,
they look for safety.
So now is when we want to provide that.
And you do need to continue to provide it to
no matter what people'spolitical persuasion is.
Because I've also had
lots of researchwhere people have said
like hey, my organizationhas only declared
there's like one candidate in this race
and I'm not allowedto talk about my favor
for the other candidate.
So, you know, psychological safety

(31:47):
has to include the abilityto speak about whatever
your interests and your preferences are.
But it has to be done
sort of in a fair and open and an equitable way across that
so that no one's voice is silenced.
Yeah.
But right now is is a,
a real transition point.
I feel like in American workforces that we need
we should be addressing moreproactively and intentionally.

(32:11):
We'll get to AIin a minute.
But the ambiguityand the uncertainty
for all kinds of reasons.
War in Ukraine,I mean, there's
it just seems like it's been a never ending gut punch,
since March of 2020
that we've just hadall these things kind of
coming in and upsetting the apple cart in terms of
of the way things weredone in the past.

(32:31):
So definitely challenging times.
So let's jump back over to team effectiveness.
I definitely had that one on my list.
And you talked about it briefly.
What are the main keys
to bringing that team togetherto creating a coherent team?
Well, the first thingI'll say, like,
I want to talk about the ritualsa little bit more, but
and this goes back to mytraining in graduate school.
I had the benefit of workingfrom Richard Hackman at Harvard,

(32:54):
who is one of the world's leaders of
team scholarship.
And, you know, you also haveto design your team well.
So before you even get
to figure out what your team does together,
like actually figure outhow to design it well
and there's some keycharacteristics that we know
that again, aren'toften employed and
it starts with having a clear and compelling mission
that the groupis rallied behind,

(33:16):
but also has things like having a stable membership.
So making sure you actually knowwho's on the team
and that, believe or not,is not that common.
Often if I gospeak to someone,
I ask fortheir team list.
I'll get a different listfrom each person
who is supposedlyon the same team.
So, you know,
and that's not going to create the best outcomes.
But other things as well, like
like really having,a sense of role clarity.

(33:39):
Okay. So I'm on the team.
Now, what's my
What’s my job?
Like, what am I here to contribute?
How do I fitinto this?
How do I contribute to that mission?
And other things like having,you know,
a shared mindset and a shared set of norms that often
you have to explicitly establish up front like
here's how we do things.
And this is a great
advantage to if you're trying to create psychological safety,
is to really call outwhat are the consequences,

(34:00):
what are the expectations,
invitation, rationale, all that.
So that's the first thing is like actually
just design the team well
set it upfor success.
And then once you havethat in place,
then there are many thingsyou need to do,
including, you know, having the right kind of cadence
and performance management systemsand lots of other stuff.
But the thing thatthat I feel like
is an under tapped asset

(34:22):
that teams can employ is this
sense of,creating rituals.
And I came into that study.
I was invited by Marilyn [Zakhour]who's the CEO and founder of this,
teams consulting company out of Dubai.[Cosmic Centaurs]
Because she's really fascinated by scholarship
and wanted to sort of
help, investigate more.
How do wecreate better teams?
We looked at different typesof rituals, 11 different ones.

(34:43):
In our study, we did two different rounds
of surveycross-sectional surveys.
We had like over 900 peopleand then we did interviews.
And then we also dida field study
where we changed some stuff in a team.
I wasn't sure how powerful they would be in reality
I was kind of goingin a little bit skeptical, but
it turns out that we sawa really great benefit
from the teams that were.
And it’s kind of likethe social infrastructure

(35:04):
and the routine of itthat I mentioned with loneliness
in this case thoughwe saw that
I’ve already mentioned the outcomeslike commitment to purpose
and greater satisfaction.
But I think the reasonthese things can work,
is because you'retying them
like there's a real clear reasonwhy you're doing each ritual.
So maybe you're having a stand up every day for example.

(35:24):
Does the team know what that's about?
Are you there to improve your operations?
Are you thereto bond?
Are you there to do a course correction on your strategy?
You know, whatever it is like,
It’s often not explicitly made,
what the clarity of that is.
So that's like a big deal.
That's where we see the.
I think that where you startto see the benefit of rituals,

(35:44):
and then you do haveto also execute them.
Again, like withinintegration of
what the employees want to do.
You have to check in.
You have to have metrics attached
to make sure that they're actually doing the things
you thought they're going to do.
You have to employthem regularly.
So there's lots of things thatcompanies get wrong when they're
even if they have the ideaof doing a ritual.
But to me, it startswith this idea of like,
why are we doing this?
What is the statedpurpose and how?

(36:05):
And what is ourhypothesis behind?
Behind this idea thatthis is going to create that?
And so, you know,I've now become a believer.
I would say that,you know,
rituals really can make a difference.
And, one of the main ways
I see them affectingnot only the
these other outcomes I mentioned but is
the team relationshipsget better, too,
because you have a structure now
for people to share that exchange
to share thatinformation

(36:26):
and get to know each other,build trust.
I've got the list hereof all the different rituals,
stand up calls, creative catch ups,
client reviews,brand audits, etc.
the thing that kind of struck me though,
is they're crashing a little bit into
where those thingsbecome rote,
unproductive and,
next thing you know,my whole calendar is filled
with recurring meetings and, you know,

(36:47):
a big theme that I preach a lotin terms of meetings is
cancel all your recurring meetings,
basically to run them all through a review
to see whether you need them anymore
and why did we start themand do we start or,
to your point,being super intentional about
what is the point,what is the objective?
Are the right people here?
Are we goingto get to a decision?
We start with the best intentions.

(37:08):
You know, you put that thingon the calendar,
it’s every two weekswe're going to do such and such and
And without intentionalconsistency over time,
becomes a negativeas much as it's got
a possibility to be a positive.
That’s right. And somebut absolutely.
And I've experienced that kind of situation
and it's extremelypainful.
So that's why like you doin order to do them well,

(37:30):
not only do you need to startwith like this clear intention and
what you're hoping to achievebut you have to,
have to also buildinto your structure
a way to check, like
it shouldn't go two years before you find out
that no one likes this meeting.
You know.
And the other thing issharing responsibility,
because it's not just on the team leader
to make all this stuffhappen all the time.
That's a great wayto make them not happen,

(37:52):
because the team leader has gota lot of other things going on.
And if they can't show upto one meeting,
next thing you know, it's not happening
and so forth.
So, you know,
this has to be a democraticteam-led project as well.
And then the other thingI would say is also
don't get too carried away.
Like don't add too many things at once.
I'd rather see like two great ritualsthan ten bad ones.
I love people'senthusiasm,

(38:13):
but sometimes we geta little too carried away
when we start throwing thingsagainst the calendar.
I had a hypothesis on on the push back against,
remote and hybrid work
that I think it exposeda lot of people,
didn't have great performancemanagement practices in place,
didn't have great metrics as to what they were judging people on,
weren't doing a great job.
People would say, ‘Well how do I know people are doing work?’

(38:33):
It's like, ‘Well, don't you check in on them?’
Aren’t they working on thingsthat you want them to work on
and do youcheck in on those?
So it seemed like areal kind of
pulling back of the curtain for a lot of people
that hid maybe
less than greatperformance management.
You know, there's still too many annual reviews,
which is way too longof a frequency to be
to be giving feedback.
And then where do you come down
kind of on one-on-onesin terms of the manager to

(38:55):
to get a lot of thesethings accomplished?
I had a reallyinteresting interview
with Dave Montezat PayPal.
He has one-on-ones with everysingle person in his team
80 people worldwide,at least once a quarter.
And it just struck me,as you said, you know,
can you list the members of the team?
He could list the members of his team,
their spouse,their kids, their dogs,

(39:17):
and what's their favorite flavor of ice cream?
Because he puts in the effort.
Where do you come down on one-on-ones [1:1s]
and frequency and,
did Covid expose a bunch of badperformance management practices
that had a lot of roomfor improvement?
Well, to answer the second question,
in terms ofdid it expose,
I think we've known for a while.
I mean, I've been teachingMBA students

(39:38):
for a long time about
how we still,for some reason,
can't figure out how to manage knowledge work,
which isn't as easyto measure as
something like,you know
producing a something on a manufacturing, line.
So I'm not sure thatthis is new.
In fact, actually, if anyone wants to read like,
I highly recommend this
wonderful articleabout incentive systems.

(40:02):
That was written in 1995.
Oh gosh, what's the title of it? It’s something like
On the perils of expecting A while rewarding B[On the Folly of Rewarding A, While Hoping for B - Steven Kerr, 1995]
We've known this it's been a problem.
I do think that remote work though
made itclearer for sure
to a lot of people, because suddenly
we had thisproductivity paranoia.
And managersrealized

(40:23):
I'm worried they're not getting their work done
when I can'tsee them.
And the workers were like, well,what do you want to see?
I'll show you.
And they were like, I don't knowwhat I want to see, you know?
And so, you know,
I think that and that’s
I think underlying some of the reasons
that people are asking peopleto come back to the office.
It's like,‘Well, I don't know.’
I don't really want to have to define it, but
I'll know it betterif I just can see where it's.
[Jeff] Right, it’s all substitute attendance.

(40:44):
I mean, it's so silly
because most teams are distributed anyway.
I mean even if you're
on the same team in the same building,
there's going to be a bigportion of your team that isn't.
And even if you're on the same campus,
I mean, you go to some of these campuses, they’re giant
you know,you're not necessarily
going to be in the samebuilding, the same floor. So
again, I always go backto Darren's great point.
Intentional communicationsand effective communications

(41:06):
is something every company should be good at.
It just that the remote oneshad to be
because you couldn't ever tap somebody,
on the shoulder to ask a question in real time,
because that'sjust not a viable
solution for most people these days
in most big knowledgeworker situations
Right, and so I thinkwe haven't solved that yet.
I mean, even in my own work,you know,
when I hire a research assistant,

(41:27):
I don't think I dothe job I should.
In setting upreally clear expectations
for what high quality output looks like.
You know, I kind of waittill they provide something,
and then I give feedback on itand hope over time it kind of,
you know, becomes clear.
But that'sthat's not a very efficient way.
So, you know, I think we
we need to get better about proactively defining
performance standards.
And by the way,

(41:48):
I feel it's important
because people may think
that like, my only objective
is to create like,happy employees.
And that's not the case at all.
Like, I'm super interestedin high performance,
you know, that
that ultimately is, is what'sgoing to keep the lights on
and allow peopleto have employment.
So I do think we have toto elevate people's expectations
for performanceall the time.

(42:09):
But defining it inadvance is tough.
And then coaching it is the other problem.
And that's why getting back to your question
about one-on-ones
It's hard to find a substitute
for a great one-on-one,
even if it's a half an hour
where you has taken the timeto review the person's work,
and then you sit down with them
and ask questions like,
where did youget stuck?
You know, help me understand.
When someone does provide to me their output,

(42:30):
I'll say, you know, well what did you take away from this?
Not just what did you learn from doing it?
What did you take away fromthe experience of producing it?
Like, how could we make this better?
Did I give you enough direction?
Did you feel,you know
you couldn't reach out to me at one point,
you know, where did you get stuck?
How can I facilitate this work?
And also,you know
what examples do you need so that you can
can independently figure outhow to do this better?

(42:53):
If I find
you're finding it too hard to get my time and attention.
So that, you know, it's hard to replicate that,
it's very, almost impossible to do that any more than
I wouldn't do like a group
grading feedback with my students.
Like wouldn’t gather five of theminto my office and be like,
‘Okay Jeff, here's your paper’s problems.’
[Connie] All right?[Jeff] Right
Now, you know, like,
Now Noreen, here's your paper’s problems.

(43:14):
You want to give that kind of feedback
and coaching one-on-one.
And I think it's a great use.
You know, I think it's remarkable that
that executive is spendingone-on-one time with 80 people
every three months,
but I'm sure it's incredibly valuable.
And go allalso the other thing,
going back to your wholemeeting aversion,
you know,I have a different paper
that I published
a little while agowith some people,
Leslie Perlow and Eunice Eunat Harvard and

(43:35):
And we were talking about,like, the scourge of meetings,
like, you know,
and one of thethings we did with people
was helped carve out meeting free days
just to get away from that
rampant proliferation,
as well as the poor timing of them on their schedule
that really pockmarkedtheir days.
They couldn't get any longbreaks to really think.
Right.
Even though I'm advocating for one-on-ones,

(43:56):
that’s not toadd on to
an already overloaded calendar of meetings,
it would mean changing
how you spend your timeand using the tools that we have
to do more async stuff so that
the one-on-ones can land a place on the calendar without
without creating more trouble.
Right.
All right.
So we're getting kind of towards the end of our time.
So we have to talk about
the big elephant in the room that
that impacts all these things.

(44:17):
And that's AI.
And the impact of AI
AI in terms of, of threatening my job,
I'm not really sure.
But I keep readingin the headlines that it's
it's coming to take my job.
AI as a thing that I need to learn,
and spend time with.
And everyone's telling meI need to learn it and manage it.
In terms of an additional thing
that a manager now has to worry about and manage

(44:39):
are there people using AI?
Are they givingthem the tools?
Are they giving the restrictions
because everyone is tellingyou, you know,
if you’re not doing your work with AI,somebody who is using AI
is going to take your jobin the not too distant future.
So when you look at how AI
now fits both for the employee

(44:59):
as well as the managerin terms of the pressure
to incorporate itin just a little hindsight
Brian Elliott, who's a big future of work guy,
you probably know him,Future Forum
You know, his whole take is that
it's the mature managers who could handle the move to distributed work
are the ones that kind of havethe mindset to be able to start
moving into adoption of AIand helping their people adopt to it

(45:22):
because it's really about learning.
It's about experimenting.
It's about giving people space.
It's, you know, kind of a lot of the same
kind of higher order behaviors
that will put peoplein a position
that they can take advantage of this thing
because this is another giant, uncertain, scary
thing and just when you think you got, you know,
OpenAI figured out

(45:42):
DeepSeek,comes out.
So what what's youryour take on
where we are with AI today and where it's going to be tomorrow?
Well, I’ll, I’veseveral reactions
building on some of the topicswe've already covered.
One, what you just described
in Brian Elliot's perspective resonates with mine and
when you think about that,
that winning formula

(46:03):
I mentioned for creatingpsychological safety
same principlesI would apply
to encouraging your workforceto experiment with AI.
I mean, I was just at thisfabulous, like AI
leadership conference a couple weeks ago in New York and
I mean, my mind is blown about how fast
and furiously this technologyis advancing and changing and
I was also blown away by how

(46:24):
all these experts in the fieldwere saying that, like,
you can't teach this,you can't wait for the class,
you can't wait for things to settle.
You have to get into the middleand the deep end of the pool
and just like, start swimminguntil you figure it out.
And so that is the mandate,I think, for managers.
But how do you incentivizeyour people to do that?
Because framing it asanother example of risk taking,
just like what you know, need psychological safety for,

(46:46):
you need to providetheir personal rationale,
not just the organizational rationale
or not just some sort of like
generic sense of like, well, we should do this.
Like, how is it good for you and your job?
Why should you do this?
And then the invitation,what's the
what are the rules?
Because there area lot of people using it
without telling their managersbecause they're afraid
something bad will happenif they reveal it.
So providing that invitation,
that clear way, like,

(47:07):
How can we talk about this?
How do you want me to use thisand not use this?
And then reinforcingall those positive
reinforcements are just as important in that case
and removing thenegative consequences as well.
So that's sort of like a generic framework
of how I be thinkingabout getting people
to overcome their hesitancyto either use it
or to tell people they're using it.
But then the other thing that
I want to justpick up on is

(47:27):
I feel like
AI
in with its great promise,
offers two different potential outcomes for us
when we think about the employee life.
Option One is that AI
allows us to become our highestand best selves at work.
By removing a lot of the,

(47:49):
the lower level stuff
and freeing up our time and our mental energy
to do the high quality, creative workthat we're capable of
and learn and advanceat a rapid rate,
as well as
going back to thisdesigning slack into the workflow,
carving out time
that was otherwise occupiedby doing these menial tasks
or whatever other types of taskwe were doing that AI can now do

(48:10):
by using it to bond and to learn
and to grow together as a team,
as a collective.
So that's theideal outcome.
And there is one,
research project I did withKate Kellogg with, at MIT,
where we talked about,for example, how
we were seeing that certain AI tools
were allowing managersto do more of that
one on one coachingwe were just talking about.

(48:32):
It freed up their time from
trying to figure out how people were performing
and gathering data and analyzing data
to ‘Boom’
I've got this informationright in front of me.
Now let's talk.
So that half an hour
could now be devoted to coaching
this employee on how to get better based on that.
Like that is the ideal outcome in my mind from AI.
It's going to free uptime to use it better.

(48:54):
What I worry though
the other option
is going to be the that AI.
All the productivity gains will result in
reducing our workforce and
and pushing more workon to the remaining employees
so that there's no personal benefit for them,
there's no relational benefitfor the collective.
And we still end up in this rat race
where people are feeling disconnected,

(49:16):
overworked and burned out.
I think we have choices now
with what to do withthis amazing technology.
And I do hope that we will use it wisely for those goals.
Yeah, and not just say
‘You need to kick out twice as much as you did last month
because you're using AI’
[Connie] Yeah,[Jeff] I need twice as many reports,
twice as many papers graded,twice as many students taught.

(49:37):
So
Right.
We are getting to the end of our time.
So anythingreally cognizant
that we didn't touch on that,
you want to share
that people should really be thinking about
as we head into this new year with,
with all the uncertainty ahead and,
and that fast change, I mean, it's not going to go any slower, right?
Today's the slowest dayof technological change
for the rest of our lives. So,
[laughter]
Umm
[Connie] Now you’re making my anxiety rise[Jeff] with AI, I mean look at an old iPhone

(49:59):
Right?
Or if you look at your old PC and say,
Whoa, where's it going to bein five years, ten years?
Well, I mean, I do always want to leave people
with sort of a sense of hope,though, too, like
I mean the fact that you are inviting me
to talk about these topics,
I'm not sure you would have done that.
You know, maybefive years ago. Ten years ago.
And, by the way, one thing we haven't revealed is that

(50:19):
you and I do have a bit of a history
from way back 30 years agoin graduate school.
Even with that,even with that relationship,
I'm not sure you would haverung me up.
And, so I say that is a great sign.
And I do talk to many,many managers who are saying
we're not going to let up ontrying to promote a healthier,
workplace where people can really thrive.

(50:42):
And so let's continuethose conversations.
Yes, there areproblems to fix
and there are perilsto prevent or overcome.
But I think there's
we still have a lot of advantages here,
with this collective attention that
maybe it's the pandemicthat brought it,
maybe it's just,
you know, further enlightenmentas a human species.
But, you know,

(51:02):
I think there area lot of people out there
who are rooting for
for better days ahead for life at work.
And so there's a lot we can do.
And I don't want people
to feel discouraged,like it's hopeless.
Yeah, well I think you shared that
in a number of your podcasts where, you know,
the future of workcould be so much better.
I find a lot of peopleI talk to in the field
do have that,
encouragement becauseit's been kind of crappy.
We're still kind of treating paper and desks

(51:23):
like they were a factory
and we're taking stuffout of the inbox
and stamping it, and signing itand sticking it in the outbox
and sticking it inthe manila envelope
with the littlered string and,
sending it on to the next location,
which we're not, you know,we're not doing that anymore.
It's not the way.
No, it's not the way.
And also, all of these topics apply
to people who don't workin knowledge work too.
Like, you know,
there are lonely peopleworking in

(51:44):
restaurants and, and hospitalsand other places as well too.
So I don't want toforget about the
the other occupationsthat exist out there too.
Let's keep making those better as well.
Yeah.
All right. Connie. Well, thank you.
Thank youfor your work.
Keep publishing.
Keep the papers rolling.
Keep the research going.
So people can go to
the Institute for Life at Work.[https://www.InstituteLifeWork.org/]
You've got your researchpapers are available.

(52:05):
I'll put lots of stuffin the show notes as well,
but I really appreciatethe time.
And it's great to, to catch upafter 30 some odd years.
Oh my gosh, where did the time go?
I knowIt is great
Well, you look the same. So,
So do you.
[laughter]
Thank you so muchfor having me, Jeff.
This has been a lot of fun.
My pleasure,my pleasure.
All right, she's Connie,I'm Jeff,
you're watching‘Work 20XX’

(52:25):
Thanks for watching.Thanks for listening on the podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Take care.
Excellent.
All right.
All right,well, thank you.
Thanks again.It's great to see you.
Thank you. You too. Take care.

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Connie Noonan Hadley: Loneliness, Psychological Safety, Team Effectiveness, AI | Work 20XX Ep33

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Connie Noonan Hadley: Loneliness, Psychological Safety, Team Effectiveness, AI | Work 20XX Ep33