In this episode we're talking with Dr. Margie Warrell who shares game-changing strategies for women navigating corporate America's evolving landscape. As DEI initiatives face unprecedented scrutiny, Warrell reveals how women can cultivate unshakable confidence without constantly proving their worth.
Discover actionable insights on:
- Building "courage muscles" through daily micro-challenges
- Leveraging feminine leadership strengths in high-stakes environments
- Identifying and challenging limiting beliefs that keep you playing small
- Creating psychological safety in your team, even when organizational culture resists
- Standing firm in male-dominated spaces without compromising authenticity
With 25+ years of executive coaching experience and six bestselling books, Dr. Warrell provides a masterclass in leadership resilience. She shares her personal journey balancing motherhood to four children with a thriving global career, offering practical wisdom for anyone ready to close their own "courage gap."
Perfect for professional women, allies, and leaders committed to workplace equality who want to thrive rather than just survive in today's corporate environment. Transform how you show up at work with Warrell's unforgettable advice: "Do not wait until you feel brave to do the brave thing."
About Dr. Margie Warrell
A global authority on courageous leadership, Margie has spent over 25 years helping individuals and organizations—from NASA and Marriot to Google and Deloitte —lead more boldly.
A bestselling author of The Courage Gap and five other books, Margie has advised Fortune 500 leaders, Congressional Chiefs on Capitol Hill, entrepreneurs and rising changemakers worldwide. She’s a former Senior Partner in Korn Ferry’s Board, Executive Consulting and CEO Institute and, a trusted voice in Forbes, and, for podcast fans, she hosts her own Live Brave Podcast.
#WomenInLeadership #CareerDevelopment #CorporateCulture #WorkplaceEquality #FemaleEmpowerment #LeadershipSkills #ProfessionalGrowth #ConfidenceBuilding #ExecutivePresence #CourageInBusiness
Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or the management.
Thanks for listening!
Hey! We love new friends! Connect with us!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And that is this courage gap I talk about.
It's the gap between who we areand who we could be if we
risked being brave and backedourselves more often.
What's going on, mel?
Not much.
You remember that movie, fieldof?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Dreams?
Yes, oh, mel, not much.
You remember that movie.
Field of Dreams?
Yes, oh, I love that movie.
It's such a good movie, yeah,and I rewatched it, balled my
(00:35):
eyes out.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It gets you in the feels.
It gets you in the feels.
It's such a great movie.
It's a great movie, it's aninspirational movie, it's a very
inspirational movie.
Different feeling when youwatched it the first time to now
.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I think I watched a movie like every 10 years
randomly and every year I feellike I've taken something
completely different from it.
This time I got super reppedwhen the doctor crossed the line
to help the kid and then RayLiotta's character was like hey,
kid, you were good kid.
And then Ray Liotta's characterwas like hey, kid, you were
good.
I fucking lost it.
Jeff and I were like, andEnzo's like where's he going?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Like it's just, yeah, it's so good.
I love that you're showing allthese classics to Enzo too, all
right, well, hey, friends, thisweek we had the pleasure of
sitting down with Dr MargieWorrell, a leadership advisor
and executive coach, a keynotespeaker, a bestselling author.
She wrote the Courage Gap,which is out now, and also
(01:33):
You've Got this.
She's the host of Live Bravepodcast, guest lecturer at
Georgetown University, and acourage catalyst is what she
likes to say.
And we were introduced to DrMargie through her recent
article in Forbes letting womenknow, as DEI is canceled, more
women need to own their worthand not prove it.
(01:54):
And the courage gap talks aboutfive different steps that you
can take to take braver actionin your life, and that's what we
talked about.
Francesca, what did you loveabout this episode?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I feel like, for all the strides women have made and
women before us, women beforethem we still have a lot of gaps
that we're trying to close.
From CEO titles, VP titles, payyou name it we're still on this
journey.
Some of that journey comes downto big changes like policy, but
a lot of it comes down to thesedaily interactions or these
(02:30):
daily moves that you make foryourself.
That can be really courageous,and so I was really interested
in talking with her about it andI loved what she had shared
with us.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
One of the biggest takeaways for me in the
discussion was we all have thesegoals and things that we're
aspiring to do, and it's hard todream sometimes or express your
dreams, and my favorite quotefrom her was be selective in who
you share your dreams with,because some people might throw
a cold bucket of water on it andyou don't want that to happen.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I also love that she shared the five key things to
have more courage for women andfor men.
They're very hyper practical.
I'm not going to I'm not goingto spoil it for folks.
You have to listen to theepisode.
There are things that we canall be doing now to have more
courage, especially at work.
Right, it can feel very hard tospeak up Sometimes.
It can feel hard to stand upfor yourself or to dream big,
(03:24):
like you talked about, and thoseare those exact moments when
you should.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
You should.
That's what I loved about herarticle and that's what I loved
about this episode.
It's really getting us through,overcoming our fear.
When we make fear-baseddecisions, and especially as
women, we probably feel like Ooh, we're, we just took 20 steps
backwards, so now we need towork even harder.
But that's not what we shouldbe doing.
(03:51):
According to Margie, we need toown what we already bring to
the table.
So with that, here's Dr Margie,good to be with you, good to
(04:12):
have you with us.
Recently, you wrote an articlein Forbes noting that, as DEI is
getting canceled everywhere,women need to own their worth
and stop proving it.
So we'd love to hear from youwhy it's more critical than ever
to discuss this topic.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh, I wrote that article because I have always
believed that, as women, we areour own greatest source of
strength and elevation, evenwhen the systems around us
aren't supporting us.
And as we've seen the kind ofthe firing or the cancellation
of DEI in many spheres, I thinkthat women are finding
(04:50):
themselves feeling a littledisheartened and demoralized and
some feel like they're havingto prove themselves all over
again.
So we can't wait for systems orother people to elevate us.
We have to elevate ourselves.
And yeah, we could pointfingers and we can lay blame and
we can complain about it, but Ithink, at the end of the day,
the most effective thing we cando is starting with ourselves
(05:10):
and backing ourselves andoperating from a place of owning
our value fully.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, yeah.
I was just reading anotherarticle today in Inc Magazine I
don't know if you've seen thatone yet where someone just
recently did a deep dive ofGoogle searches.
So what people do in theprivacy of their own home when
they're researching male CEOsversus female CEOs.
And for male CEOs, it's allabout compensation all the
keywords that come up and forfemale CEOs, compensation is one
(05:39):
keyword, but the remainingkeywords by 1,650% is related to
who is their husband, who istheir family?
Are they a mother?
Which I found reallyinteresting.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I just think it shows that there's a long way to go
until there's a genuinely levelplaying field.
I think another one is when weget to the day when we don't
blink for a man to be thecaregiver at home and that's not
anything to be.
Oh, she's got a house husband.
That's actually something thatwe raise our eyebrows about, and
I was just with someone theother day and she is out in
(06:17):
America from Australia, tarynBromfitt and she was saying how
her husband is at home withtheir four teenagers, and we sat
there as women having dinnerthis is two nights ago saying
good for him, that's great,how's he going?
How's he managing at all?
And she's going.
Good job.
And I had four children too, andwhenever my husband was left
with four children, we would gogood for him, he's managing.
(06:40):
Okay, that's great.
But never in the history ofever did anyone ever say to a
man whose wife was at home withfour kids going oh, how is she
managing?
That's good that she lets yougo away, that's great.
So there's just such thisdouble standard and so, yes,
when it's a woman, we're like oh, what's her situation?
Does she have children?
(07:01):
And I just think it speaks tothe double standards, but also
our own curiosity of how womenwho rise to senior ranks manage
to do Do they have children, dothey have a husband at home?
And just recognizing that weall bring some level of
sometimes our own bias andfascination with that, because I
(07:25):
think we've just got a long wayto go until that's just not
something that's of any moreinterest.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, I can't wait for the day.
Dei is just under a microscoperight now, unfortunately.
How do you feel this isspecifically impacting women in
the workplace you touched alittle bit on.
Now I feel like I have to provemyself all over again.
I can relate to that.
I'm sure we all can.
How else is this impactingwomen in the future?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Look, there's some women who say and some responded
to my Forbes column saying Idon't feel I have to prove
myself and I'm good and I don'thonestly feel this has affected
me.
So I want to just say that outthe front.
But I also know, because I getto work with a lot of women in
my work, who are saying, yeah,like there's been a shift in the
winds, even unspoken, asthere's this shift in the winds
(08:15):
and there is a little bit of didyou get to this place because
you're a woman?
How much of that was because ofyour gender?
And if you're a woman of color,even more so.
Are you only here because?
And if you're a woman of colorwho is LBGTQ, even more so oh,
is that why you are where youare?
And so I think any woman whoalready has a little self-doubt,
(08:37):
whoever has a little impostersyndrome and I rarely meet a
woman who doesn't have momentsof that I think it just adds
like water onto the seeds ofdoubt.
Am I here because of that?
Now, I'm not saying everyonefeels that.
I don't feel that at all.
I have never thought I've gotanywhere because I'm a woman.
(08:58):
But I know there are some thatdo feel a little bit like they
have to prove themselves to bemore than worthy of that spot.
They have to work extra hardand do an extra good job.
And, let's face it, there arereal biases.
We know women are judged moreharshly on performance and when
women make a mistake it coststhem more than when men make a
mistake.
So it's not like this is alljust made up and in our minds.
(09:22):
There is realities there too.
It has left some women feelinglike they do have to prove
themselves and maybe they'redoubting themselves a little
more too.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Your article struck me.
I consider myself a relativelyconfident person and honestly,
it's a very interesting to feellike 45 and I'm still feeling
this sense of am I worthy?
I have to continually provemyself constantly.
You're only as good as yourlast success and I am curious
about why you think women feelthis way.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I think there's multiple factors that contribute
to women feeling that way.
But I think, if we just go allthe way back to our childhoods
and where we were raised, when Idid my PhD dissertation, I did
it on women who had reached theC-suite in multinational
corporations and so I did a lotof interviews with women who had
(10:18):
reached these positions ofsignificant positional power and
authority and influence.
And what was really interestingand I was looking at, what are
the defining features, what arethe defining characteristics and
mindsets of women who'vereached that spot and there was
a host of them reach that spotand there was a host of them.
(10:42):
But often they came from anenvironment where they had
someone who believed in them andsaid you've got what it takes.
A lot of them said they never,ever vaguely thought about being
in the C-suite.
That wasn't on their horizon,but they also had someone who
they had.
Experiences that helped tobuild like a little bit of grit
and resilience up in them andthey didn't let what other
(11:04):
people said be overly definingof them, like when people would
say, oh, you're just therebecause you're pretty or
whatever.
Like they were very, prettyresilient and what I would call
anti-fragile.
But I think we've got torecognize not everyone grows up
in some environment where theydo feel empowered and they're
emboldened and they develop realgrit and resilience and
(11:24):
anti-fragility.
And a lot of women grow upenvironments with a lack of
female role models, withoutpeople who are championing them,
saying absolutely, you can doanything you want.
You're 45.
I'm 10 years on you.
I grew up without any femalerole models, without anyone
saying you can do anything youwant.
You're 45.
I'm 10 years on you.
I grew up without any femalerole models, without anyone
saying you can do anything youwant.
And so I was way in my 30s andeven 40s where I'm like, oh, I'm
(11:47):
just as capable as these peopleover here, with that lack of
belief.
And so I think we don't alwaysgrow up with the same surrounded
and immersed in the same beliefsystems that we can do and be
anything we want.
We may intellectually know it'snot true.
We may intellectually know thatwe are just as capable and just
(12:08):
as clever, but there's oftenthese little lingering doubts in
the back of our head that aregoing who do you think you are?
And when are people going torealize you're not that good?
And that's not to say that mendon't also sometimes experience
that, but it's more pervasiveamong women.
(12:30):
And while I'd like to think theneedle has changed in the last
30, 40 years, I have a daughterwho's 25.
She has entered the workforceat a time that's really
different to when I entered theworkforce, but I still sometimes
see it like oh, I don't know ifI should do that.
I'm thinking, why not?
Of course you can, and I findmyself saying that.
(12:52):
Mind you, I sometimes still saythat to my sons as well.
So I'm not sure that she's gotmore doubt than my sons, but I
still see women sometimesholding themselves back more
than the barriers around them.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, those tapes that we have, those are hard
ones to take out, especially thevoices in your head.
I am curious, if you don't havesomebody that's saying you do
have what it takes, or having amentor that brings you along,
that sees something in you, whatcan somebody do on their own to
start feeling that they can ownit or they do have value, that
(13:25):
they shut off those tapes?
What are some things thatreally help?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I would say seek out people who inspire you.
Whether you get a book and readabout Madeleine Albright, get a
book and read about.
Whether you get a book and readabout Madeleine Albright, get a
book and read about.
Insert some woman that you findjust fascinating and inspiring,
whoever that may be, whetherthat's Angela Merkel or Oprah or
(13:48):
whatever, because when we readthose stories we can see a
little of ourselves in theirstory and, man, they overcame
that Like gee, yeah, they've gotstrengths and gifts that maybe
are different to yours.
But I think just that one seekout in person the kind of women
that you'd like to get to knowbetter.
(14:09):
Surround yourself, go out andgo to a conference where you're
going to meet those people andconnect with those people.
Join an organization where youget to meet those people people
and connect with those people.
Join an organization where youget to meet those people.
I have to say myself time andtime again it has been the
example of other women who go ohhoney, you got this, or like
they'll say stuff and they don'thave to know me really well,
(14:34):
but I'm like I love what theysee and they may be 15 or 20
years ahead of me or maybethey're 10 years younger than me
, but it's still affirming.
I would also say to be reallyintentional about the
relationships that you invest in, but also those that you don't
invest in, those that may beplaying you small and sometimes
that can be friends.
It can be our frenemies, it canbe our family and you might not
(14:57):
just be able to cut yourself offfrom family, and I'm not
suggesting for a moment that youshould.
I've got family members who I'mlike you know what.
I don't even tell them aboutsome of the things I'm up to
because I know they will justpour a big bucket of cold water
on it.
They are only going to feed mydoubts.
When I told my family I waswriting my first book, which is
(15:17):
quite a few years ago, and I wasnervous about doing it because
my family is in Australia,there's something called the
tall poppy syndrome and it'sthis cultural phenomena where,
if you aspire to raise too farabove your current level, you
run a significant risk of beingcut down like a tall poppy
(15:37):
that's standing out from all therest and the culture I grew up
in in rural Australia was strongwith this, and I remember
sharing with my family.
It was Christmas and I said toeverybody what's something
everyone wants to do in the next12 months?
And one sister said I want togo into South America and my
brother wanted to do his MBA andmy mother said she'd like to
volunteer more For her.
(15:58):
That was a big, bold thing, I'dlike to volunteer more.
And then I got around all mysiblings there were six siblings
and parents and they said whatdo you want to do in the next 12
months?
And I said I'd like to writethe outline for a book.
I didn't even say I wanted towrite a book, I just like to
write the outline.
I had four kids, six and underat the time, and my brother.
(16:23):
I have three, so I'm not goingto name which one.
He immediately said what are yougoing to write a book about?
And it was just like I didn'tneed that, like I did, I already
had that going in my head.
Who am I to write a book?
And I didn't need him to gowhat are you going to write a
(16:44):
book about?
And I said, oh, like how to be,how to like be more confident
and to go after what we reallywant to go after in our lives.
And I could just see him likegoing, oh, okay.
And the conversation moved on,and so I would just say it could
be family that you need to setsome rails on.
Don't share with them yourlittle seedlings of ambition if
(17:05):
you think they're going to jumpall over them.
And it could be your mother andit could be actually your best
friend, because maybe that'sthreatening to her because she's
not doing it.
So just be careful who youshare your aspirations with,
particularly in the early days,when it's just a little tiny
seedling that's stillgerminating and you're like
you've got so much doubtyourself.
(17:26):
You don't know yourself whetheror not you have what it takes.
So the last thing you need issomeone else to jump on that
wagon and go.
But how are you going to dothat?
That could be really hard.
60% of small business ownersfail.
Like how are you going tomanage that?
That could be really hard.
60% of small business ownersfail.
How are you going to managethat with three young children
or whatever it is?
As I said, I have four children.
I remember thinking abouthaving a fourth child and how
(17:47):
can I ever have a fourth childand pursue a career?
I did not know one woman whohad four children in a career.
It just speaks to that.
I had a pretty limitedenvironment and I didn't know
anyone.
And I had one girlfriend whosaid you can totally do it.
I know a woman has fourchildren.
And then she started likefinding examples for me of
others and I clung to thoseexamples oh, it can be done.
(18:10):
And to give myself permissionnot to know exactly how I do it,
but to figure it out as I wentalong.
That was very empowering for meto go okay, I'm along.
That was very empowering for meto go okay.
I'm going to now allow thepossibility for it to happen,
which to me actually was an actof courage, because I was a
little terrified that I wouldnot manage the juggling act.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, I love that.
It's an act of courage to moveforward and keep on moving
forward.
I also like the inverse of thatis the friend or the person
that's going to be like yeah, go, you can do this, you've got
this.
Listening to those stories,especially from women, that are
telling you to go and keep goingis huge.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, yeah, no, yes, and I think sometimes we give
away our power to the opinionsof others too quickly, too
readily, too often, and when Isay give away our power, we let
what other people might thinkmatter way more than is serving
(19:08):
us.
Do you think this is a goodidea?
Do you think I can do this?
What will people think if I trythis?
Maybe they'll think I'm alittle crazy.
Who am I to do it?
And I say hold your own opinionin higher esteem than you hold
the opinion of others.
That doesn't mean you shouldn'tseek out counsel and you
shouldn't seek out otherpeople's perspectives, but don't
(19:30):
let anyone else's opinionoverride your own opinion.
They've got their opinions andmaybe there's some value in them
and maybe they have some thingsthat will broaden what you're
considering and help you thinkabout things a little more
rigorously or consider thingsyou mightn't have considered.
But at the end of the day,you've got to trust yourself and
trust your gut and trust yourown intuition.
(19:51):
Just be careful how much poweryou give to what other people
think you should and shouldn'tdo.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
What I'd love to talk about are the unique strengths
women do bring to business,because I think there are unique
strengths we bring, likeintuitiveness.
It's not to say men don't havethat, but I feel like women
might have that unique strength.
One of the organizationsFrancesca and I follow is Pink
Chip, which follows the successof female CEOs and how they're
significantly outperforming maleCEOs in terms of business
success, for varying reasons.
So when you think about theleadership strengths or the
(20:39):
unique leadership strengthswomen bring to business success,
what are those unique strengthsthat we bring?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Women obviously have a strong our brains are wide
this way but just to be able toempathize with what's going on
for others, not justintellectually understand what
they think, but to be able toreally sense and feel what they
feel.
And we know that emotions driveaction, not logic.
And I think women bring a realgift and strength and some more
(21:08):
than others, obviously at beingable to empathize with what's
going on for others so they canform really authentic connection
with people at that deeperlevel, really authentic
connection with people at thatdeeper level.
I think women often aren't assettled with a sense of needing
to prove their strength and betough I'm generalizing but so
(21:29):
there's less ego often runningthe show.
It's what is it that it feelslike the right thing to do here
versus what's going to make melook strong and look tough.
I think women are naturallygood at building bridges and
gaining collaboration andbecause I think we're less
captive to an ego that has toprove how good we are and how
(21:51):
strong we are, we're able to getaround defensiveness at times
and get underneath it and toconnect with people at a
meaningful, in an authentic waythat sometimes men can't,
because there's a little moreposturing and proving, and I
call it pissing competitions,without getting too crude.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I'm bigger than you.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
My shoe is bigger than your shoe and I'm like,
seriously, what's the outcomeyou're trying to achieve here
and how can you go about workingtogether to get a better
outcome, versus making it aboutyou and your big ego and needing
to prove that you're trying toachieve here?
And how can you go aboutworking together to get a better
outcome versus making it aboutyou and your big ego and needing
to prove that you're betterthan that person?
I think on multiple differentways, women bring a great many
strengths.
Another in the research showsyes, men tend at times to be
(22:34):
more willing to wing it, so theycan be quicker to sometimes
just jump in and take a risk.
But they also can do more dumb,stupid things faster as well.
And so women tend to be alittle more considered, a little
more thoughtful about is this agood?
It doesn't mean women won'ttake risks, but they'll go about
it a little more thoughtfully.
They won't jump in.
(22:55):
Test the water with two feet.
They'll go.
Okay, let's test the depth ofthe water with one foot before
we jump in with two feet, and soon multiple different areas.
The study that came out ofHarvard of the 19 key strengths
of leadership, women werestronger on 17.
So I'm not going to list 17,but there is many ways that
women bring those strengths tothe table, and that's not to say
(23:16):
that men don't bring a lot ofstrengths too.
To me, this isn't about womenare better than men.
I feel really strongly aboutthat.
I don't like the saying thefuture is female.
I hope not.
I really hope not.
I hope that the future is justmore collaborative of men and
women on an equal playing field,partnering to make better
decisions and get betteroutcomes, because we need the
(23:39):
strengths the feminineleadership strengths, masculine
leadership strengths and we needthem to be in collaboration
together, and so I think it'simportant that that gets
recognized, and this isn't aboutone or the other one.
Better than worse than I dothink there's situations where
men's strengths may be moresuited for that specific
situation.
(23:59):
Maybe that company in thisindustry in this moment in time,
but yes, as you're talkingabout pink chip companies,
obviously women areexceptionally good at what they
do and make excellent leadersand can produce excellent
outcomes and really good atbeing inclusive and, I think,
harnessing the diversity withinteams and diversity on all
measures.
Diversity isn't just aboutgender and it's not just about
(24:20):
race.
It is on all measures.
Women are really good at beingable to harness that value of
diversity in all forms in theteams that they are leading,
that they're part of.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Yeah, it sounds.
Ideal state the future isbalanced across it all.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I get your opinion on this, because this is not a
political statement.
I'm going on objectivereporting here.
There's a lot of talk in etheraround masculine energy and I'm
curious about when it feels likein a lot of corporate America
the masculine energy is takingover.
What's your point of view onhow women operate now in
(25:00):
corporate America?
What's the move?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Stand your ground, stand tall in your power and
your worth and, given there maybe a sense that the winds are
shifting a little bit, don't letpeople play you small.
We teach people how to treat usand I think at times that means
we need to push back and callthings out, and that may not be
(25:29):
natural.
I know for myself.
My natural state is notcombative, it's not
argumentative.
It tends to be veryaccommodating and maybe a little
bit too acquiescent to otherpeople's, what other people
would like, et cetera.
But I know at times when I'vebeen in a situation where I feel
like someone is trying todominate here, they're trying to
(25:50):
claim an idea that's mine,they're trying to maybe take
advantage of my agreeablenessthat sometimes I need to lean in
and speak up and act in waysthat aren't my natural.
It's not my default and gosorry, excuse me, I haven't
finished what I was saying.
If you would just give me amoment, we can go over to you
once I finished and like, versusjust letting someone cut in
(26:13):
right or someone's taking youridea going, I just want to just
step back a bit for a moment.
I actually suggested thatyesterday and not doing it in a
way that's derogatory, but westand firm in our own power and
our own value and our worth, andwe make sure people know that
we won't be pushed over, becauseI think we do get what we
tolerate.
And sometimes we toleratethings to avoid conflict, to
(26:37):
avoid an awkward, difficultmoment, to avoid coming across
as being God, she's hard work orshe's sensitive, and yet over
time you're like okay, peoplewill take advantage of that.
As I wrote about in this book,the Courage Gap, how do we
cultivate our capacity to takebrave action?
Fear constricts our actionsthat we take and courage expands
(27:00):
the actions that we take, andit's about expanding your
behavioral repertoire.
No, I'm not a naturallycombative person, but can I be
combative if I need to be?
Can I be strident and reallyassert myself into something?
Yeah, you bet I can, and Idon't want to do that all the
time, but I can lean in and dothat when I need to, or ask for
(27:20):
my worth or make sure my voiceis heard and speak with the
authority that's needed.
And so practicing that and I dothink it takes practice.
If you're someone who tends tobe a little bit more diminutive,
you don't need your voice heard.
You're happy not to sayanything in a meeting unless you
have something compelling tosay.
I would say no.
Practice injecting your voiceinto that meeting.
(27:42):
Practice speaking up with alittle more volume or a little
more depth.
Practice standing a littletaller.
Practice you being first to aska question or to put forward an
idea, even though you're not100% sure how it's going to land
.
Practice that it's a musclethat you build and you've got to
put in those reps.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, Very true, very true, and I love it's those
moments where you need to standyour ground.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
And I actually think, in these times when you could
rationalize why, oh, pull yourhead in and don't do it, I
believe it is in times like this, when we can find the most
reasons to be a little timid, alittle cautious, to play it safe
, that our voice is most neededand we are most called to step
(28:32):
up, speak up and really claimour place.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Yes, absolutely yeah.
We've talked a lot about this,but when you say bet on yourself
, like in one sentence, whatdoes that truly mean?
You could do two sentences.
I don't want to give you limits.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Act in ways that affirm that you have everything
it takes to achieve your wildestvision of success.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Okay, I want to put that on a mug.
No.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
When I say back yourself, like back yourself and
not your doubts.
Act in ways that show that youexpect good things to come your
way and that you're going to doyour part.
If the universe is conspiringfor you, are you doing 100% of
your part to set yourself up forthose great things to happen?
(29:37):
Like?
You've got to do your part,you've got to be putting
yourself out there.
You've got to be taking therisks.
You can't expect amazing thingsto happen while you're playing
it safe.
You've got to take the risk,take the chance and make that
bet on yourself.
I had curiosity.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Do you feel like most people need to be grounded in,
like knowing that you have ahigher self or knowing that
you're here to do something?
Is there a higher purpose thinggoing on here?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
as well.
You're saying does belief insomething that's bigger than
ourselves help us show up in theworld as more of who it is, who
we can be?
I think that's something.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Much more articulately, steve.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Look, I get it.
There's some people who go Idon't believe in God, I'm not
religious, I'm not spiritualwhatever.
And I would just say this Ifyou ever say, oh, I believe in
karma, then you're believing insome force that's bigger than
yourself.
If you say the universe, you'rebelieving in some force that's
bigger than yourself.
If you believe in what goesaround, comes around, you're
believing in something that'sbigger than yourself.
(30:47):
I actually am a Christian, so Iabsolutely believe in something
that's bigger than myself.
But regardless of whether youhave any religious belief at all
, you can still believe that whoyou are is more than the body
that you're in and more than thebrains that you've got, and
more than your current emotionalstate.
(31:08):
And, yes, I believe that we areall here to fulfill a purpose
that leaves the world a littlebit better off, because we lived
, walked on it for 80, 90 years.
I believe that.
Does that compel me to be braveat times when I really don't
want to be?
Yes, it does.
But even if you don't believethat, there is something that is
(31:29):
immensely empowering to believethat you are innately worthy by
the virtue of the fact that youare in the world, and that you
have innate worth to bring toothers around you, and you
cannot bring that in all itsforce and all its glory if you
are second guessing yourself,because when you doubt yourself,
(31:51):
you don't only do yourself adisservice, you shortchange, I
believe, the whole world, butyou certainly shortchange all
those people around you of whoit is you can be.
And that is this courage gap Italk about.
It's the gap between who we areand who we could be if we
risked being brave and backedourselves more often.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
How can we enable people to close that courage gap
, especially women?
What can we be doing as bosses,as peers, I think
organizationally.
What would you say to that?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
When I look at leadership and I think of it as
three domains of the either weand the it, personal leadership,
interpersonal leadership andenterprise leadership, our
organization, our business, ourteam, et cetera, you know what
can we be doing?
I just wrote a book on that, sofind my book Courage Gap
Shameless plug.
But hey if you're going to doit.
That's what I wrote the bookabout.
(32:53):
Number one I'm just going toreally quickly just say five
quick things.
Number Number one I'm justgoing to really quickly just say
five quick things.
Number one focus on what it isthat you want.
What's the outcome you want foryourself?
What's the outcome you want forothers?
What's the outcome you want foryour team, your organization?
Get really clear about that.
And what are the values thatunderpin who you need to be, how
you need to show up to movetoward that vision of what you
want?
Because your vision for whatyou want, your commitment to
(33:14):
that, has to be bigger than thevision of what you want.
Because your vision for whatyou want, your commitment to
that, has to be bigger than thefears of what you don't want.
Otherwise, fear is going togovern.
Number two challenge the storythat you're telling yourself.
Our beliefs are the software ofbehavior and so often we're
operating from a narrative oh, Idon't think I've got what it
(33:35):
takes.
Oh, I'm not sure I'm ready.
Oh, I need to have a bit moreskill, knowledge.
Oh, what will people know?
What is the belief that youneed to operate from for you to
achieve what it is you want toachieve?
To become the woman that youknow you have it within you to
become.
What is the belief system?
So re-script, what's keepingyou stuck or stressed or having
you living a little too safely?
(33:57):
Number three embody courage.
Take a breath, stand tall, putyour shoulders back, like how we
hold ourselves physicallymatters.
In fact, there was a study outof Kellogg Business School that
found that how we hold ourselvesphysically shifts our
perception of our own power andagency, but it also shifts how
(34:17):
others see us.
When you walk in a room likeyou own that room and you sit
down like you absolutely belongthere, it shifts how other
people perceive you, but itstarts with how you perceive
yourself.
Number four make friends withdiscomfort, and if you can't
make friends with it, at leastmake a truce with it that you
are going to get uncomfortableas often as need be because you
(34:39):
cannot become who you want to beand do what you want to do and
create a psychologically safeenvironment around you.
If you're only ever beingcomfortable yourself, you've got
to be willing to do the veryawkward things, and from a
management and leadershipperspective, when it comes to
fostering what I call a cultureof courage and I have spoken to
Amy Edmondson, who coined theterm psychological safety on my
(35:01):
Live Brave podcast a few times.
The two go hand in hand.
They're the two sides of thesame coin.
We cannot foster apsychological safety if we're
not willing to be vulnerable, ifwe're not willing to say I
messed up, I don't know, or whatmight I have got wrong here, or
invite feedback.
So you've got to be rolemodeling that.
(35:21):
But start with making friendswith that discomfort and doing
the very things that scare youEvery day.
Do a little thing.
I'm going to do something everyday.
That's a little uncomfortable,and the more often we do that,
we build that muscle.
And number five be a littlekinder to yourself when you mess
up, because you're human.
Because you're human, you'rehuman.
(35:42):
And without knowing you reallywell, mel or Francesca, I'm
going to guess that today youwere not as brilliant and brave
and wonderful and organized anddisciplined and patient with
your children or whatever, asyou'd love to be.
And that is the human condition.
We are never going to be allthings all the time.
(36:08):
But when we can be a littlekinder to ourselves and extend a
little more grace inward, whenwe either try something and we
balls it up or when we hold backand we're like, oh shit, I know
I should reach out and havethat conversation.
When we hold back and we'relike, oh shit, I know I should
reach out and have thatconversation, but oh God, I
can't, I just can't, I'm justnot doing it today, like when
our inner chicken little getsthe better of us, just be kind
(36:28):
to yourself and go.
Okay, because we're not goingto risk being brave if we beat
up on ourselves every time wefall and we are a lot braver and
we show up as a bigger versionof ourselves when we can embrace
that we are fallible and we areflawed and we are not always
going to be fearless.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That's a good vibe though.
Yeah, that's a good vibe.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
All right, all right, we are closing things out with
rapid round.
So, margie, this is what welike to just get to know you a
little bit better one-on-one,get your thoughts outside of
just this topic.
Are you game for us to diveright in?
Yeah, go for it.
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
Speaker 1 (37:09):
I think we're going to see more fluid,
purpose-driven work environments.
I think the need that reallywas underscored during the
pandemic that people are lookingfor meaning.
They want to work fororganizations that reflect their
values.
I think we're going to see moreand more of that people
prioritizing purpose and meaningover titles, that also value
(37:31):
flexibility over formality.
I think we're going to see moreof that and a greater desire
for real authenticity, asdistinct from that sort of
posturing and looking good, thatpeople really want to see
people being really human.
As technology and gen AI takeson a bigger role, that human
touch is going to be even moresought after and valued.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Okay.
Totally agree, yes, we're onthe same page.
What, what music are youlistening to right now?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
oh, my goodness, I have a fairly broad repertoire.
I I have to listen to just 80sclassics.
Yeah, yes, I go back.
I still love john denver andneil diamond, but I also I love
ederan and I love Pink, so Ijust got this broad one.
(38:20):
I love Lauren Daigle.
I just there's a lot of peopleI like listening to.
I love Kelly Clarkson, soneedless to say, I'm broad.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
What are you reading right now?
Or listening to podcastsyourself?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Ah, podcasts.
I really like Ezra Klein.
I listen to him, but I actuallylisten to a broad spectrum of
people on podcasts.
I like 10% Happier.
I feel like this is a weird oneto say Joe Rogan I listen to
Joe Rogan.
I find him really interesting,though I do often fast forward
through it and I do littlebursts of Mel Robbins.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Okay, all right.
Who do you really admire?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Who do you really admire?
Who do I really admire?
I did admire my mom, who passedaway 18 months ago, because she
had such a beautiful, humblegentle, serene way about her.
She was all about service andnever about ego.
So I'm just going to stop there.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Okay.
What's one piece of advice youwant everyone to know oh, do not
wait until you feel brave to dothe brave thing.
I love it.
Thank you for being here, drmargie.
We really appreciate it and wedo want to plug the courage gap
(39:34):
five steps to bra Action becausethat just came out.
So please do check it out.
And, margie, how can ourlisteners connect with you for
ongoing insights and resourceson this topic?
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Oh, thank you.
They can find me on socialmedia, LinkedIn, anywhere though
I'm not very active on TikTok,but Insta I am there.
They can go to my website,margieworrellcom, and take my
courage quiz on the book page,sign up for my newsletter, and I
also have my own Live Bravepodcast.
That is everywhere you listento podcasts.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yes, we are following it, by the way.
So thank you, thank you forjoining us.
We really appreciate you beinghere.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
It was awesome to speak with you both and I just
want you two to just keepbacking yourselves because
you're doing great work in theworld.
To just keep backing yourselvesbecause you're doing great work
in the world.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
This episode was produced, edited and all things
by us myself, mel Plett andFrancesca Rineri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
(40:40):
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(41:00):
Take care, friends.
Bye friends, bye friends.
And that is this courage gap I talk about.
It's the gap between who we areand who we could be if we
risked being brave and backedourselves more often.
What's going on, mel?
Not much.
You remember that movie, fieldof?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Dreams?
Yes, oh, mel, not much.
You remember that movie.
Field of Dreams?
Yes, oh, I love that movie.
It's such a good movie, yeah,and I rewatched it, balled my
(00:35):
eyes out.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It gets you in the feels.
It gets you in the feels.
It's such a great movie.
It's a great movie, it's aninspirational movie, it's a very
inspirational movie.
Different feeling when youwatched it the first time to now
.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I think I watched a movie like every 10 years
randomly and every year I feellike I've taken something
completely different from it.
This time I got super reppedwhen the doctor crossed the line
to help the kid and then RayLiotta's character was like hey,
kid, you were good kid.
And then Ray Liotta's characterwas like hey, kid, you were
good.
I fucking lost it.
Jeff and I were like, andEnzo's like where's he going?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Like it's just, yeah, it's so good.
I love that you're showing allthese classics to Enzo too, all
right, well, hey, friends, thisweek we had the pleasure of
sitting down with Dr MargieWorrell, a leadership advisor
and executive coach, a keynotespeaker, a bestselling author.
She wrote the Courage Gap,which is out now, and also
(01:33):
You've Got this.
She's the host of Live Bravepodcast, guest lecturer at
Georgetown University, and acourage catalyst is what she
likes to say.
And we were introduced to DrMargie through her recent
article in Forbes letting womenknow, as DEI is canceled, more
women need to own their worthand not prove it.
(01:54):
And the courage gap talks aboutfive different steps that you
can take to take braver actionin your life, and that's what we
talked about.
Francesca, what did you loveabout this episode?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I feel like, for all the strides women have made and
women before us, women beforethem we still have a lot of gaps
that we're trying to close.
From CEO titles, VP titles, payyou name it we're still on this
journey.
Some of that journey comes downto big changes like policy, but
a lot of it comes down to thesedaily interactions or these
(02:30):
daily moves that you make foryourself.
That can be really courageous,and so I was really interested
in talking with her about it andI loved what she had shared
with us.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
One of the biggest takeaways for me in the
discussion was we all have thesegoals and things that we're
aspiring to do, and it's hard todream sometimes or express your
dreams, and my favorite quotefrom her was be selective in who
you share your dreams with,because some people might throw
a cold bucket of water on it andyou don't want that to happen.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I also love that she shared the five key things to
have more courage for women andfor men.
They're very hyper practical.
I'm not going to I'm not goingto spoil it for folks.
You have to listen to theepisode.
There are things that we canall be doing now to have more
courage, especially at work.
Right, it can feel very hard tospeak up Sometimes.
It can feel hard to stand upfor yourself or to dream big,
(03:24):
like you talked about, and thoseare those exact moments when
you should.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
You should.
That's what I loved about herarticle and that's what I loved
about this episode.
It's really getting us through,overcoming our fear.
When we make fear-baseddecisions, and especially as
women, we probably feel like Ooh, we're, we just took 20 steps
backwards, so now we need towork even harder.
But that's not what we shouldbe doing.
(03:51):
According to Margie, we need toown what we already bring to
the table.
So with that, here's Dr Margie,good to be with you, good to
(04:12):
have you with us.
Recently, you wrote an articlein Forbes noting that, as DEI is
getting canceled everywhere,women need to own their worth
and stop proving it.
So we'd love to hear from youwhy it's more critical than ever
to discuss this topic.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh, I wrote that article because I have always
believed that, as women, we areour own greatest source of
strength and elevation, evenwhen the systems around us
aren't supporting us.
And as we've seen the kind ofthe firing or the cancellation
of DEI in many spheres, I thinkthat women are finding
(04:50):
themselves feeling a littledisheartened and demoralized and
some feel like they're havingto prove themselves all over
again.
So we can't wait for systems orother people to elevate us.
We have to elevate ourselves.
And yeah, we could pointfingers and we can lay blame and
we can complain about it, but Ithink, at the end of the day,
the most effective thing we cando is starting with ourselves
(05:10):
and backing ourselves andoperating from a place of owning
our value fully.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah, yeah.
I was just reading anotherarticle today in Inc Magazine I
don't know if you've seen thatone yet where someone just
recently did a deep dive ofGoogle searches.
So what people do in theprivacy of their own home when
they're researching male CEOsversus female CEOs.
And for male CEOs, it's allabout compensation all the
keywords that come up and forfemale CEOs, compensation is one
(05:39):
keyword, but the remainingkeywords by 1,650% is related to
who is their husband, who istheir family?
Are they a mother?
Which I found reallyinteresting.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I just think it shows that there's a long way to go
until there's a genuinely levelplaying field.
I think another one is when weget to the day when we don't
blink for a man to be thecaregiver at home and that's not
anything to be.
Oh, she's got a house husband.
That's actually something thatwe raise our eyebrows about, and
I was just with someone theother day and she is out in
(06:17):
America from Australia, tarynBromfitt and she was saying how
her husband is at home withtheir four teenagers, and we sat
there as women having dinnerthis is two nights ago saying
good for him, that's great,how's he going?
How's he managing at all?
And she's going.
Good job.
And I had four children too, andwhenever my husband was left
with four children, we would gogood for him, he's managing.
(06:40):
Okay, that's great.
But never in the history ofever did anyone ever say to a
man whose wife was at home withfour kids going oh, how is she
managing?
That's good that she lets yougo away, that's great.
So there's just such thisdouble standard and so, yes,
when it's a woman, we're like oh, what's her situation?
Does she have children?
(07:01):
And I just think it speaks tothe double standards, but also
our own curiosity of how womenwho rise to senior ranks manage
to do Do they have children, dothey have a husband at home?
And just recognizing that weall bring some level of
sometimes our own bias andfascination with that, because I
(07:25):
think we've just got a long wayto go until that's just not
something that's of any moreinterest.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, I can't wait for the day.
Dei is just under a microscoperight now, unfortunately.
How do you feel this isspecifically impacting women in
the workplace you touched alittle bit on.
Now I feel like I have to provemyself all over again.
I can relate to that.
I'm sure we all can.
How else is this impactingwomen in the future?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Look, there's some women who say and some responded
to my Forbes column saying Idon't feel I have to prove
myself and I'm good and I don'thonestly feel this has affected
me.
So I want to just say that outthe front.
But I also know, because I getto work with a lot of women in
my work, who are saying, yeah,like there's been a shift in the
winds, even unspoken, asthere's this shift in the winds
(08:15):
and there is a little bit of didyou get to this place because
you're a woman?
How much of that was because ofyour gender?
And if you're a woman of color,even more so.
Are you only here because?
And if you're a woman of colorwho is LBGTQ, even more so oh,
is that why you are where youare?
And so I think any woman whoalready has a little self-doubt,
(08:37):
whoever has a little impostersyndrome and I rarely meet a
woman who doesn't have momentsof that I think it just adds
like water onto the seeds ofdoubt.
Am I here because of that?
Now, I'm not saying everyonefeels that.
I don't feel that at all.
I have never thought I've gotanywhere because I'm a woman.
(08:58):
But I know there are some thatdo feel a little bit like they
have to prove themselves to bemore than worthy of that spot.
They have to work extra hardand do an extra good job.
And, let's face it, there arereal biases.
We know women are judged moreharshly on performance and when
women make a mistake it coststhem more than when men make a
mistake.
So it's not like this is alljust made up and in our minds.
(09:22):
There is realities there too.
It has left some women feelinglike they do have to prove
themselves and maybe they'redoubting themselves a little
more too.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Your article struck me.
I consider myself a relativelyconfident person and honestly,
it's a very interesting to feellike 45 and I'm still feeling
this sense of am I worthy?
I have to continually provemyself constantly.
You're only as good as yourlast success and I am curious
about why you think women feelthis way.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I think there's multiple factors that contribute
to women feeling that way.
But I think, if we just go allthe way back to our childhoods
and where we were raised, when Idid my PhD dissertation, I did
it on women who had reached theC-suite in multinational
corporations and so I did a lotof interviews with women who had
(10:18):
reached these positions ofsignificant positional power and
authority and influence.
And what was really interestingand I was looking at, what are
the defining features, what arethe defining characteristics and
mindsets of women who'vereached that spot and there was
a host of them reach that spotand there was a host of them.
(10:42):
But often they came from anenvironment where they had
someone who believed in them andsaid you've got what it takes.
A lot of them said they never,ever vaguely thought about being
in the C-suite.
That wasn't on their horizon,but they also had someone who
they had.
Experiences that helped tobuild like a little bit of grit
and resilience up in them andthey didn't let what other
(11:04):
people said be overly definingof them, like when people would
say, oh, you're just therebecause you're pretty or
whatever.
Like they were very, prettyresilient and what I would call
anti-fragile.
But I think we've got torecognize not everyone grows up
in some environment where theydo feel empowered and they're
emboldened and they develop realgrit and resilience and
(11:24):
anti-fragility.
And a lot of women grow upenvironments with a lack of
female role models, withoutpeople who are championing them,
saying absolutely, you can doanything you want.
You're 45.
I'm 10 years on you.
I grew up without any femalerole models, without anyone
saying you can do anything youwant.
You're 45.
I'm 10 years on you.
I grew up without any femalerole models, without anyone
saying you can do anything youwant.
And so I was way in my 30s andeven 40s where I'm like, oh, I'm
(11:47):
just as capable as these peopleover here, with that lack of
belief.
And so I think we don't alwaysgrow up with the same surrounded
and immersed in the same beliefsystems that we can do and be
anything we want.
We may intellectually know it'snot true.
We may intellectually know thatwe are just as capable and just
(12:08):
as clever, but there's oftenthese little lingering doubts in
the back of our head that aregoing who do you think you are?
And when are people going torealize you're not that good?
And that's not to say that mendon't also sometimes experience
that, but it's more pervasiveamong women.
(12:30):
And while I'd like to think theneedle has changed in the last
30, 40 years, I have a daughterwho's 25.
She has entered the workforceat a time that's really
different to when I entered theworkforce, but I still sometimes
see it like oh, I don't know ifI should do that.
I'm thinking, why not?
Of course you can, and I findmyself saying that.
(12:52):
Mind you, I sometimes still saythat to my sons as well.
So I'm not sure that she's gotmore doubt than my sons, but I
still see women sometimesholding themselves back more
than the barriers around them.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Yeah, those tapes that we have, those are hard
ones to take out, especially thevoices in your head.
I am curious, if you don't havesomebody that's saying you do
have what it takes, or having amentor that brings you along,
that sees something in you, whatcan somebody do on their own to
start feeling that they can ownit or they do have value, that
(13:25):
they shut off those tapes?
What are some things thatreally help?
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I would say seek out people who inspire you.
Whether you get a book and readabout Madeleine Albright, get a
book and read about.
Whether you get a book and readabout Madeleine Albright, get a
book and read about.
Insert some woman that you findjust fascinating and inspiring,
whoever that may be, whetherthat's Angela Merkel or Oprah or
(13:48):
whatever, because when we readthose stories we can see a
little of ourselves in theirstory and, man, they overcame
that Like gee, yeah, they've gotstrengths and gifts that maybe
are different to yours.
But I think just that one seekout in person the kind of women
that you'd like to get to knowbetter.
(14:09):
Surround yourself, go out andgo to a conference where you're
going to meet those people andconnect with those people.
Join an organization where youget to meet those people people
and connect with those people.
Join an organization where youget to meet those people.
I have to say myself time andtime again it has been the
example of other women who go ohhoney, you got this, or like
they'll say stuff and they don'thave to know me really well,
(14:34):
but I'm like I love what theysee and they may be 15 or 20
years ahead of me or maybethey're 10 years younger than me
, but it's still affirming.
I would also say to be reallyintentional about the
relationships that you invest in, but also those that you don't
invest in, those that may beplaying you small and sometimes
that can be friends.
It can be our frenemies, it canbe our family and you might not
(14:57):
just be able to cut yourself offfrom family, and I'm not
suggesting for a moment that youshould.
I've got family members who I'mlike you know what.
I don't even tell them aboutsome of the things I'm up to
because I know they will justpour a big bucket of cold water
on it.
They are only going to feed mydoubts.
When I told my family I waswriting my first book, which is
(15:17):
quite a few years ago, and I wasnervous about doing it because
my family is in Australia,there's something called the
tall poppy syndrome and it'sthis cultural phenomena where,
if you aspire to raise too farabove your current level, you
run a significant risk of beingcut down like a tall poppy
(15:37):
that's standing out from all therest and the culture I grew up
in in rural Australia was strongwith this, and I remember
sharing with my family.
It was Christmas and I said toeverybody what's something
everyone wants to do in the next12 months?
And one sister said I want togo into South America and my
brother wanted to do his MBA andmy mother said she'd like to
volunteer more For her.
(15:58):
That was a big, bold thing, I'dlike to volunteer more.
And then I got around all mysiblings there were six siblings
and parents and they said whatdo you want to do in the next 12
months?
And I said I'd like to writethe outline for a book.
I didn't even say I wanted towrite a book, I just like to
write the outline.
I had four kids, six and underat the time, and my brother.
(16:23):
I have three, so I'm not goingto name which one.
He immediately said what are yougoing to write a book about?
And it was just like I didn'tneed that, like I did, I already
had that going in my head.
Who am I to write a book?
And I didn't need him to gowhat are you going to write a
(16:44):
book about?
And I said, oh, like how to be,how to like be more confident
and to go after what we reallywant to go after in our lives.
And I could just see him likegoing, oh, okay.
And the conversation moved on,and so I would just say it could
be family that you need to setsome rails on.
Don't share with them yourlittle seedlings of ambition if
(17:05):
you think they're going to jumpall over them.
And it could be your mother andit could be actually your best
friend, because maybe that'sthreatening to her because she's
not doing it.
So just be careful who youshare your aspirations with,
particularly in the early days,when it's just a little tiny
seedling that's stillgerminating and you're like
you've got so much doubtyourself.
(17:26):
You don't know yourself whetheror not you have what it takes.
So the last thing you need issomeone else to jump on that
wagon and go.
But how are you going to dothat?
That could be really hard.
60% of small business ownersfail.
Like how are you going tomanage that?
That could be really hard.
60% of small business ownersfail.
How are you going to managethat with three young children
or whatever it is?
As I said, I have four children.
I remember thinking abouthaving a fourth child and how
(17:47):
can I ever have a fourth childand pursue a career?
I did not know one woman whohad four children in a career.
It just speaks to that.
I had a pretty limitedenvironment and I didn't know
anyone.
And I had one girlfriend whosaid you can totally do it.
I know a woman has fourchildren.
And then she started likefinding examples for me of
others and I clung to thoseexamples oh, it can be done.
(18:10):
And to give myself permissionnot to know exactly how I do it,
but to figure it out as I wentalong.
That was very empowering for meto go okay, I'm along.
That was very empowering for meto go okay.
I'm going to now allow thepossibility for it to happen,
which to me actually was an actof courage, because I was a
little terrified that I wouldnot manage the juggling act.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, I love that.
It's an act of courage to moveforward and keep on moving
forward.
I also like the inverse of thatis the friend or the person
that's going to be like yeah, go, you can do this, you've got
this.
Listening to those stories,especially from women, that are
telling you to go and keep goingis huge.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Yeah, yeah, no, yes, and I think sometimes we give
away our power to the opinionsof others too quickly, too
readily, too often, and when Isay give away our power, we let
what other people might thinkmatter way more than is serving
(19:08):
us.
Do you think this is a goodidea?
Do you think I can do this?
What will people think if I trythis?
Maybe they'll think I'm alittle crazy.
Who am I to do it?
And I say hold your own opinionin higher esteem than you hold
the opinion of others.
That doesn't mean you shouldn'tseek out counsel and you
shouldn't seek out otherpeople's perspectives, but don't
(19:30):
let anyone else's opinionoverride your own opinion.
They've got their opinions andmaybe there's some value in them
and maybe they have some thingsthat will broaden what you're
considering and help you thinkabout things a little more
rigorously or consider thingsyou mightn't have considered.
But at the end of the day,you've got to trust yourself and
trust your gut and trust yourown intuition.
(19:51):
Just be careful how much poweryou give to what other people
think you should and shouldn'tdo.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
What I'd love to talk about are the unique strengths
women do bring to business,because I think there are unique
strengths we bring, likeintuitiveness.
It's not to say men don't havethat, but I feel like women
might have that unique strength.
One of the organizationsFrancesca and I follow is Pink
Chip, which follows the successof female CEOs and how they're
significantly outperforming maleCEOs in terms of business
success, for varying reasons.
So when you think about theleadership strengths or the
(20:39):
unique leadership strengthswomen bring to business success,
what are those unique strengthsthat we bring?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Women obviously have a strong our brains are wide
this way but just to be able toempathize with what's going on
for others, not justintellectually understand what
they think, but to be able toreally sense and feel what they
feel.
And we know that emotions driveaction, not logic.
And I think women bring a realgift and strength and some more
(21:08):
than others, obviously at beingable to empathize with what's
going on for others so they canform really authentic connection
with people at that deeperlevel, really authentic
connection with people at thatdeeper level.
I think women often aren't assettled with a sense of needing
to prove their strength and betough I'm generalizing but so
(21:29):
there's less ego often runningthe show.
It's what is it that it feelslike the right thing to do here
versus what's going to make melook strong and look tough.
I think women are naturallygood at building bridges and
gaining collaboration andbecause I think we're less
captive to an ego that has toprove how good we are and how
(21:51):
strong we are, we're able to getaround defensiveness at times
and get underneath it and toconnect with people at a
meaningful, in an authentic waythat sometimes men can't,
because there's a little moreposturing and proving, and I
call it pissing competitions,without getting too crude.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I'm bigger than you.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
My shoe is bigger than your shoe and I'm like,
seriously, what's the outcomeyou're trying to achieve here
and how can you go about workingtogether to get a better
outcome, versus making it aboutyou and your big ego and needing
to prove that you're trying toachieve here?
And how can you go aboutworking together to get a better
outcome versus making it aboutyou and your big ego and needing
to prove that you're betterthan that person?
I think on multiple differentways, women bring a great many
strengths.
Another in the research showsyes, men tend at times to be
(22:34):
more willing to wing it, so theycan be quicker to sometimes
just jump in and take a risk.
But they also can do more dumb,stupid things faster as well.
And so women tend to be alittle more considered, a little
more thoughtful about is this agood?
It doesn't mean women won'ttake risks, but they'll go about
it a little more thoughtfully.
They won't jump in.
(22:55):
Test the water with two feet.
They'll go.
Okay, let's test the depth ofthe water with one foot before
we jump in with two feet, and soon multiple different areas.
The study that came out ofHarvard of the 19 key strengths
of leadership, women werestronger on 17.
So I'm not going to list 17,but there is many ways that
women bring those strengths tothe table, and that's not to say
(23:16):
that men don't bring a lot ofstrengths too.
To me, this isn't about womenare better than men.
I feel really strongly aboutthat.
I don't like the saying thefuture is female.
I hope not.
I really hope not.
I hope that the future is justmore collaborative of men and
women on an equal playing field,partnering to make better
decisions and get betteroutcomes, because we need the
(23:39):
strengths the feminineleadership strengths, masculine
leadership strengths and we needthem to be in collaboration
together, and so I think it'simportant that that gets
recognized, and this isn't aboutone or the other one.
Better than worse than I dothink there's situations where
men's strengths may be moresuited for that specific
situation.
(23:59):
Maybe that company in thisindustry in this moment in time,
but yes, as you're talkingabout pink chip companies,
obviously women areexceptionally good at what they
do and make excellent leadersand can produce excellent
outcomes and really good atbeing inclusive and, I think,
harnessing the diversity withinteams and diversity on all
measures.
Diversity isn't just aboutgender and it's not just about
(24:20):
race.
It is on all measures.
Women are really good at beingable to harness that value of
diversity in all forms in theteams that they are leading,
that they're part of.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Yeah, it sounds.
Ideal state the future isbalanced across it all.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I get your opinion on this, because this is not a
political statement.
I'm going on objectivereporting here.
There's a lot of talk in etheraround masculine energy and I'm
curious about when it feels likein a lot of corporate America
the masculine energy is takingover.
What's your point of view onhow women operate now in
(25:00):
corporate America?
What's the move?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Stand your ground, stand tall in your power and
your worth and, given there maybe a sense that the winds are
shifting a little bit, don't letpeople play you small.
We teach people how to treat usand I think at times that means
we need to push back and callthings out, and that may not be
(25:29):
natural.
I know for myself.
My natural state is notcombative, it's not
argumentative.
It tends to be veryaccommodating and maybe a little
bit too acquiescent to otherpeople's, what other people
would like, et cetera.
But I know at times when I'vebeen in a situation where I feel
like someone is trying todominate here, they're trying to
(25:50):
claim an idea that's mine,they're trying to maybe take
advantage of my agreeablenessthat sometimes I need to lean in
and speak up and act in waysthat aren't my natural.
It's not my default and gosorry, excuse me, I haven't
finished what I was saying.
If you would just give me amoment, we can go over to you
once I finished and like, versusjust letting someone cut in
(26:13):
right or someone's taking youridea going, I just want to just
step back a bit for a moment.
I actually suggested thatyesterday and not doing it in a
way that's derogatory, but westand firm in our own power and
our own value and our worth, andwe make sure people know that
we won't be pushed over, becauseI think we do get what we
tolerate.
And sometimes we toleratethings to avoid conflict, to
(26:37):
avoid an awkward, difficultmoment, to avoid coming across
as being God, she's hard work orshe's sensitive, and yet over
time you're like okay, peoplewill take advantage of that.
As I wrote about in this book,the Courage Gap, how do we
cultivate our capacity to takebrave action?
Fear constricts our actionsthat we take and courage expands
(27:00):
the actions that we take, andit's about expanding your
behavioral repertoire.
No, I'm not a naturallycombative person, but can I be
combative if I need to be?
Can I be strident and reallyassert myself into something?
Yeah, you bet I can, and Idon't want to do that all the
time, but I can lean in and dothat when I need to, or ask for
(27:20):
my worth or make sure my voiceis heard and speak with the
authority that's needed.
And so practicing that and I dothink it takes practice.
If you're someone who tends tobe a little bit more diminutive,
you don't need your voice heard.
You're happy not to sayanything in a meeting unless you
have something compelling tosay.
I would say no.
Practice injecting your voiceinto that meeting.
(27:42):
Practice speaking up with alittle more volume or a little
more depth.
Practice standing a littletaller.
Practice you being first to aska question or to put forward an
idea, even though you're not100% sure how it's going to land
.
Practice that it's a musclethat you build and you've got to
put in those reps.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, Very true, very true, and I love it's those
moments where you need to standyour ground.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
And I actually think, in these times when you could
rationalize why, oh, pull yourhead in and don't do it, I
believe it is in times like this, when we can find the most
reasons to be a little timid, alittle cautious, to play it safe
, that our voice is most neededand we are most called to step
(28:32):
up, speak up and really claimour place.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Yes, absolutely yeah.
We've talked a lot about this,but when you say bet on yourself
, like in one sentence, whatdoes that truly mean?
You could do two sentences.
I don't want to give you limits.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Act in ways that affirm that you have everything
it takes to achieve your wildestvision of success.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Okay, I want to put that on a mug.
No.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
When I say back yourself, like back yourself and
not your doubts.
Act in ways that show that youexpect good things to come your
way and that you're going to doyour part.
If the universe is conspiringfor you, are you doing 100% of
your part to set yourself up forthose great things to happen?
(29:37):
Like?
You've got to do your part,you've got to be putting
yourself out there.
You've got to be taking therisks.
You can't expect amazing thingsto happen while you're playing
it safe.
You've got to take the risk,take the chance and make that
bet on yourself.
I had curiosity.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Do you feel like most people need to be grounded in,
like knowing that you have ahigher self or knowing that
you're here to do something?
Is there a higher purpose thinggoing on here?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
as well.
You're saying does belief insomething that's bigger than
ourselves help us show up in theworld as more of who it is, who
we can be?
I think that's something.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Much more articulately, steve.
Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Look, I get it.
There's some people who go Idon't believe in God, I'm not
religious, I'm not spiritualwhatever.
And I would just say this Ifyou ever say, oh, I believe in
karma, then you're believing insome force that's bigger than
yourself.
If you say the universe, you'rebelieving in some force that's
bigger than yourself.
If you believe in what goesaround, comes around, you're
believing in something that'sbigger than yourself.
(30:47):
I actually am a Christian, so Iabsolutely believe in something
that's bigger than myself.
But regardless of whether youhave any religious belief at all
, you can still believe that whoyou are is more than the body
that you're in and more than thebrains that you've got, and
more than your current emotionalstate.
(31:08):
And, yes, I believe that we areall here to fulfill a purpose
that leaves the world a littlebit better off, because we lived
, walked on it for 80, 90 years.
I believe that.
Does that compel me to be braveat times when I really don't
want to be?
Yes, it does.
But even if you don't believethat, there is something that is
(31:29):
immensely empowering to believethat you are innately worthy by
the virtue of the fact that youare in the world, and that you
have innate worth to bring toothers around you, and you
cannot bring that in all itsforce and all its glory if you
are second guessing yourself,because when you doubt yourself,
(31:51):
you don't only do yourself adisservice, you shortchange, I
believe, the whole world, butyou certainly shortchange all
those people around you of whoit is you can be.
And that is this courage gap Italk about.
It's the gap between who we areand who we could be if we
risked being brave and backedourselves more often.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
How can we enable people to close that courage gap
, especially women?
What can we be doing as bosses,as peers, I think
organizationally.
What would you say to that?
Speaker 1 (32:33):
When I look at leadership and I think of it as
three domains of the either weand the it, personal leadership,
interpersonal leadership andenterprise leadership, our
organization, our business, ourteam, et cetera, you know what
can we be doing?
I just wrote a book on that, sofind my book Courage Gap
Shameless plug.
But hey if you're going to doit.
That's what I wrote the bookabout.
(32:53):
Number one I'm just going toreally quickly just say five
quick things.
Number Number one I'm justgoing to really quickly just say
five quick things.
Number one focus on what it isthat you want.
What's the outcome you want foryourself?
What's the outcome you want forothers?
What's the outcome you want foryour team, your organization?
Get really clear about that.
And what are the values thatunderpin who you need to be, how
you need to show up to movetoward that vision of what you
want?
Because your vision for whatyou want, your commitment to
(33:14):
that, has to be bigger than thevision of what you want.
Because your vision for whatyou want, your commitment to
that, has to be bigger than thefears of what you don't want.
Otherwise, fear is going togovern.
Number two challenge the storythat you're telling yourself.
Our beliefs are the software ofbehavior and so often we're
operating from a narrative oh, Idon't think I've got what it
(33:35):
takes.
Oh, I'm not sure I'm ready.
Oh, I need to have a bit moreskill, knowledge.
Oh, what will people know?
What is the belief that youneed to operate from for you to
achieve what it is you want toachieve?
To become the woman that youknow you have it within you to
become.
What is the belief system?
So re-script, what's keepingyou stuck or stressed or having
you living a little too safely?
(33:57):
Number three embody courage.
Take a breath, stand tall, putyour shoulders back, like how we
hold ourselves physicallymatters.
In fact, there was a study outof Kellogg Business School that
found that how we hold ourselvesphysically shifts our
perception of our own power andagency, but it also shifts how
(34:17):
others see us.
When you walk in a room likeyou own that room and you sit
down like you absolutely belongthere, it shifts how other
people perceive you, but itstarts with how you perceive
yourself.
Number four make friends withdiscomfort, and if you can't
make friends with it, at leastmake a truce with it that you
are going to get uncomfortableas often as need be because you
(34:39):
cannot become who you want to beand do what you want to do and
create a psychologically safeenvironment around you.
If you're only ever beingcomfortable yourself, you've got
to be willing to do the veryawkward things, and from a
management and leadershipperspective, when it comes to
fostering what I call a cultureof courage and I have spoken to
Amy Edmondson, who coined theterm psychological safety on my
(35:01):
Live Brave podcast a few times.
The two go hand in hand.
They're the two sides of thesame coin.
We cannot foster apsychological safety if we're
not willing to be vulnerable, ifwe're not willing to say I
messed up, I don't know, or whatmight I have got wrong here, or
invite feedback.
So you've got to be rolemodeling that.
(35:21):
But start with making friendswith that discomfort and doing
the very things that scare youEvery day.
Do a little thing.
I'm going to do something everyday.
That's a little uncomfortable,and the more often we do that,
we build that muscle.
And number five be a littlekinder to yourself when you mess
up, because you're human.
Because you're human, you'rehuman.
(35:42):
And without knowing you reallywell, mel or Francesca, I'm
going to guess that today youwere not as brilliant and brave
and wonderful and organized anddisciplined and patient with
your children or whatever, asyou'd love to be.
And that is the human condition.
We are never going to be allthings all the time.
(36:08):
But when we can be a littlekinder to ourselves and extend a
little more grace inward, whenwe either try something and we
balls it up or when we hold backand we're like, oh shit, I know
I should reach out and havethat conversation.
When we hold back and we'relike, oh shit, I know I should
reach out and have thatconversation, but oh God, I
can't, I just can't, I'm justnot doing it today, like when
our inner chicken little getsthe better of us, just be kind
(36:28):
to yourself and go.
Okay, because we're not goingto risk being brave if we beat
up on ourselves every time wefall and we are a lot braver and
we show up as a bigger versionof ourselves when we can embrace
that we are fallible and we areflawed and we are not always
going to be fearless.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That's a good vibe though.
Yeah, that's a good vibe.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
All right, all right, we are closing things out with
rapid round.
So, margie, this is what welike to just get to know you a
little bit better one-on-one,get your thoughts outside of
just this topic.
Are you game for us to diveright in?
Yeah, go for it.
Okay, it's 2030.
What's work going to look like?
Speaker 1 (37:09):
I think we're going to see more fluid,
purpose-driven work environments.
I think the need that reallywas underscored during the
pandemic that people are lookingfor meaning.
They want to work fororganizations that reflect their
values.
I think we're going to see moreand more of that people
prioritizing purpose and meaningover titles, that also value
(37:31):
flexibility over formality.
I think we're going to see moreof that and a greater desire
for real authenticity, asdistinct from that sort of
posturing and looking good, thatpeople really want to see
people being really human.
As technology and gen AI takeson a bigger role, that human
touch is going to be even moresought after and valued.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Okay.
Totally agree, yes, we're onthe same page.
What, what music are youlistening to right now?
Speaker 1 (38:00):
oh, my goodness, I have a fairly broad repertoire.
I I have to listen to just 80sclassics.
Yeah, yes, I go back.
I still love john denver andneil diamond, but I also I love
ederan and I love Pink, so Ijust got this broad one.
(38:20):
I love Lauren Daigle.
I just there's a lot of peopleI like listening to.
I love Kelly Clarkson, soneedless to say, I'm broad.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
What are you reading right now?
Or listening to podcastsyourself?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Ah, podcasts.
I really like Ezra Klein.
I listen to him, but I actuallylisten to a broad spectrum of
people on podcasts.
I like 10% Happier.
I feel like this is a weird oneto say Joe Rogan I listen to
Joe Rogan.
I find him really interesting,though I do often fast forward
through it and I do littlebursts of Mel Robbins.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
Okay, all right.
Who do you really admire?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Who do you really admire?
Who do I really admire?
I did admire my mom, who passedaway 18 months ago, because she
had such a beautiful, humblegentle, serene way about her.
She was all about service andnever about ego.
So I'm just going to stop there.
Speaker 3 (39:13):
Okay.
What's one piece of advice youwant everyone to know oh, do not
wait until you feel brave to dothe brave thing.
I love it.
Thank you for being here, drmargie.
We really appreciate it and wedo want to plug the courage gap
(39:34):
five steps to bra Action becausethat just came out.
So please do check it out.
And, margie, how can ourlisteners connect with you for
ongoing insights and resourceson this topic?
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Oh, thank you.
They can find me on socialmedia, LinkedIn, anywhere though
I'm not very active on TikTok,but Insta I am there.
They can go to my website,margieworrellcom, and take my
courage quiz on the book page,sign up for my newsletter, and I
also have my own Live Bravepodcast.
That is everywhere you listento podcasts.
Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yes, we are following it, by the way.
So thank you, thank you forjoining us.
We really appreciate you beinghere.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
It was awesome to speak with you both and I just
want you two to just keepbacking yourselves because
you're doing great work in theworld.
To just keep backing yourselvesbecause you're doing great work
in the world.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
This episode was produced, edited and all things
by us myself, mel Plett andFrancesca Rineri.
Our music is by Pink Zebra andif you loved this conversation
and you want to contribute yourthoughts with us, please do.
You can visit us atyourworkfriendscom, but you can
(40:40):
also join us over on LinkedIn.
We have a LinkedIn communitypage and we have the TikToks and
Instagrams, so please join usin the socials.
And if you like this and you'vebenefited from this episode and
you think someone else canbenefit from this episode,
please rate and subscribe.
We'd really appreciate it.
That helps keep us going.
(41:00):
Take care, friends.
Bye friends, bye friends.
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.