The Messy Middle Matters
The Messy Middle Matters podcast shines a much-needed spotlight on what it takes to work in, survive in, and even thrive in the messy middle of work.
Episodes
When the world shifts under your feet, what do you do next? In this episode, Indra talks with bestselling children’s author Nancy Krulik about the art of resilience and reinvention. From investigative journalism to over 250 books for kids — and now animation — Nancy’s career is a masterclass in adapting, learning, and staying curious when plans fall apart.
Together, they explore what it takes to recognize when it’s time to pivot, h...
Business goals and human behavior don’t always line up — and the friction can stall progress, frustrate teams, and leave leaders scratching their heads. In this episode, we dive into real-world examples where business logic clashes with human tendencies, from time tracking to communication challenges and conflicting incentives. We share strategies for bridging the gap, including clear rationale, collaboration across teams, and open...
Perfectionism can drive excellence — but it can also stall progress, create stress, and keep teams stuck. In this episode, we explore the “pencils down” metaphor, helping you recognize when good enough is actually brilliant. We discuss the roots and benefits of perfectionism, the pitfalls of over-editing and micromanagement, and how leaders can model healthy standards. Packed with practical strategies for releasing control, encoura...
Thinking about leaving corporate America but not sure what it really takes? In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson to explore the mental, emotional, and practical shifts involved in breaking free from the corporate system.
They unpack the culture and incentives of corporate life, address the fears and stigma around leaving, and discuss the logistical realities—from health insurance to financial planning—that o...
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra sits down with Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson to explore what it really feels like to be at a career crossroads. From packing up her life (and two cats!) to drive across the country, to rethinking what success looks like beyond job titles, Juleen shares her story of stepping outside her comfort zone and learning to trust herself. Together, Indra and Juleen unpack the tension between chas...
Branding yourself isn’t optional anymore—it’s essential. In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson, founder of Startup Baddie and F3 (Founders, Funders & Fractionals), to explore how to stand out, show up authentically, and even rebrand yourself when the time is right.
They dive into the signs it’s time to rebrand, the difference between corporate and personal branding, and practical steps for making your bra...
Your professional identity shapes how others see you, how you show up, and the opportunities that come your way. In this episode, we explore the difference between brand (how you want to be seen) and reputation (how others actually see you), and share practical strategies for defining and communicating your identity at work. We dive into real-world examples, tips for aligning your actions with your intentions, and ways to make your...
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra is joined by Victor Malena, founder of Ops on Tap, to explore the subtle but powerful difference between being smart and being prepared.
Victor shares a career-shaping story from an early mentor who taught him that success often comes less from being the "smartest person in the room" and more from being the one most ready to engage, ask questions, and adapt. Together, Indra and Vi...
Let’s be honest. Networking often conjures awkward happy hours, forced small talk, and a vague sense that you should be doing more of it. But what if it didn’t have to feel gross? In this episode, Indra and Amanda break down how to keep your network warm, show up authentically, and build meaningful relationships that support your career and your humanity. Whether you’re introverted, overwhelmed, or just not sure where to start, thi...
Indra drops into your feed with a short update on what’s ahead for The Messy Middle Matters. The next chapter features new voices and experiences, additional stories from the trenches, and an even deeper examination of the work that is rarely seen, heard, or celebrated. Don’t worry. Amanda will still be joining regularly.
In this episode, Indra and Amanda explore the difference between influence and authority and why mastering influence is essential for most people at work. While authority comes with titles and structure, influence is often how real change happens: through relationships, trust, and timing.
They share personal stories of leading without formal power, the subtle art of planting seeds and letting ideas take root, and strategies for shi...
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack a workplace tension that’s all too familiar: what happens when incentives, outputs, and motivation aren’t aligned.
They begin by defining key terms: intrinsic incentives (such as purpose or pride), extrinsic incentives (like pay or praise), and outputs (the tangible results of one's work). Then, they dive into two primary sources of misalignment:
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Belonging to a team can be deeply fulfilling, but what happens when that sense of loyalty starts to conflict with your growth in your craft?
In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the tension between short-term team alignment and long-term career development. They explore what it means to be loyal to your project team, your department, or your craft, especially in roles like program management, design, and marketing, where craft-...
Why does everything feel urgent all the time — and what does it cost us? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the toll of poor prioritization on teams, leaders, and organizations.
From the illusion of decision-making to the chaos of shifting priorities, they explore the mental and operational burnout that comes when no one says no. They offer practical tools for creating clarity, setting boundaries, and making prioritization a...
What do people mean when they say someone is “too senior”? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the layered, often coded ways the word "senior" is used in hiring and professional contexts.
From recruiter conversations to team dynamics, the term is frequently a stand-in for other qualities—such as executive presence, high salary expectations, and perceived difficulty to manage—that often reveal unspoken biases. They explore the...
What do you do when a talented team member has outgrown what your organization can offer? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the rarely discussed topic of supporting team members who are ready to move on, not because they've failed, but because they’ve grown. From recognizing career ceilings to embracing talent mobility, they explore how letting go can be an act of leadership, not loss. You’ll hear...
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into a frustrating contradiction many professionals have experienced: the same companies that go out of their way to hire the brightest minds often turn around and disempower them the moment they arrive. From micromanagement to fear-based leadership, they examine the organizational dynamics that hinder strong talent and the downstream consequences for innovation, re...
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee explore the language used in hiring, specifically the overused and often problematic terms “rockstar” and “unicorn.” They unpack how these labels, while meant to signal excellence, can set unrealistic expectations and perpetuate individualism over collaboration. Along the way, they highlight the real risks of unicorn hunting, the myth of the full-stack e...
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee delve into the evolving landscape of personal branding, beginning with the notion that LinkedIn is no longer just a digital resume. From resharing posts to publishing thought leadership, today’s professionals are expected to build a visible, credible presence that extends far beyond job titles and bullet points.
They reflect on the growing pressure to “s...
Taking notes isn’t always busywork; it can be a power move. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the underrated but essential skill of effective note-taking in the workplace. They reflect on how their own approach has evolved from admin duty to strategic tool and explore why the person writing the notes often holds more influence than you think.
From capturing decisions to controlling narratives, they share tactical advice on b...
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