Colin’s joined by John Middlekauff, host of “3 and Out”!
They start with the draft evaluation for Shedeur Sanders and Colin argues that regardless of where he gets drafted, he’ll likely be the third best quarterback in his division and whether that analysis gets factored into his draft position (4:15). They dissect the Giants roster after signing Russell Wilson and whether it would make sense to pass on Shedeur and draft a different position of need (8:30).
John explains why a “high floor” isn’t really a thing when it comes to drafting whereas “high ceiling” is VERY real (12:45). They debate why teams missed on Brock Purdy in the draft, why there were signs early on that he was going to massively outperform his draft stock, and why intangibles really matter (16:00).
They look at the over/under win totals and make their predictions for who will over/under perform their expectations in Vegas. Colin predicts the Chiefs will underperform, John predicts the 49ers will overperform, and that the Dolphins will implode (26:00). They also predict overperformance from the Titans, Patriots and Chargers (31:15).
They pivot to college football and weigh in on the unorthodox pairing of Deion Sanders and Colorado, and the surprise of Deion being all in on the Buffs despite Shedeur moving on to the NFL (37:00).
They debate whether lower turnout in youth football will cause the NFL to become more like the NBA where it becomes a league of “have’s” and “have not’s” because of a diminished talent pool at lower levels, and why player mobility has transformed development (48:00).
Finally, Colin lauds college football becoming more professional in its model and why it’s been great for both the sport and fans (59:15).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
As I've told you, Fubo is my favorite way to
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(00:25):
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But check it out.
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FuboTV dot Com slash column fifty bucks off two months
Fubo TV. All right, John Middlikoff, former NFL scout, you
know him, you love him the podcast three and out,
loves his golf as well. As we get ready for
the Masters that's around the corner. But we've got some
(01:03):
NFL stuff to talk about. So we got into this
discussion on the show today and I said you know, obviously,
when the NFL had to write almost a you know,
a billion dollar check for CTE, the game got safer
really fast. And you can't touch quarterbacks. You already can't
go high or at the wrong angle on anybody but
(01:26):
a running back going forward. That's why it's really makes
sense to have two and three running backs in the rotation,
because it's the last position you can really clobber from
any angle at any time. And I said, because it's
become such an offensive league, there's only one way to
win with exceptional offensive quarterback play. And I said, here's
(01:47):
the thing about Shnur Sanders. If you're Cleveland, if you
draft him, he is at best the third best quarterback
in that division. He'll never be as good as Burrow.
He's not that kind of prospect. And he's not Lamar Jackson.
If the Steelers hit on a quarterback in the next
two years, he could be four. He's not an exceptional athlete,
not an exceptional arm and if, for instance, the Giants
(02:10):
wanted him, he's not going to be Jayden Daniels and
he's not special athletically like Jalen Hurts. He may be
better than Dak, but again, he would be third best
quarterback in a division. And so my takeaway and Shaudeur
Sanders is do teams think like that? It only takes
one coach to love bow Nicks, right like Sean Payton
(02:31):
loved him because there's a little bit of a doppelganger
with Drew Brees. But when I look at Shaduur and
I like him, I can't argue that Burrow Lamar Chaduur
is three. I can't argue that Jalen and Jaden Daniels
Shaduur is three. And those kind of quarterbacks are infrequent
(02:52):
playoff quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Do scouts think like that? Yeah? I mean these conversations
definitely come up, not only right now but throughout the
fall when your scouts are going in the problem with
that mindset, you would never draft a quarterback because who
the hell is ever going to be better than Lamar
Jackson or Joe Burrow? Right or you know you're never
gonna how are you ever gonna find like a twenty
three year old Matt Stafford. More than likely you're not
(03:15):
gonna draft this high again. And you know two names
that I hear come up a lot or definitely one,
and I'll use another name is Andy Dalton, and I
would throw Derek Carr in there as well. You know,
I think people that say you know that Kype skill set,
historically Shador Sanders, those guys went picked thirty five and
picked thirty six, I think ten years ago. He's going
(03:37):
in the second round and people are very excited about him.
Jimmy Garofflow as well. At the end of the second round.
Andy Dalton has made one hundred and sixty eight starts
in the NFL, and he was in a division with
a fantastic Ravens defense and Roethlisberger in his prime and
they were going to the playoffs all the time. Carr
took a dysfunctional Raider team twice to the playoffs. So
(03:57):
if Shador is in that mold, it's really on the organization.
And if you're the Browns, Andrew Berry's pretty good GM,
Stefanski's pretty good coach. They got a lot of talent
on the team. So if he can just become that
Andy Dalton, Jimmy Garoppolo, Derek Carr, Yeah, you're not gonna
beat you know, if Lamar Jackson or Joe Burrow are on,
they're gonna beat you. But you still have a lot
(04:18):
of other games throughout the season. So it's if you
can build the team well enough, can't you compete to
make the playoffs. I mean, they're drafting two over a
hole right now, right And granted that's because I mean
Deshaun became one of the worst quarterbacks we've ever seen.
Their team just fell apart this year. But more than
likely they're not gonna draft this high again. Now. Is
(04:38):
it an quote unquote overdraft. Yeah, but the reason Mac
Jones and Daniel Jones and those type guys became disastrous.
You couldn't even function with them as your starting quarterback, right,
Andy Dalton. For seven straight years with the Bengals, they
did a good job. You could just every year you
went in like, we're gonna win ten plus games. The
Browns would die to do that. Their owner, who can
(04:59):
be a little off the sometimes I give him credit
for making the comment the other day. You never hear that,
you know, admitting we still all the guy ninety million dollars.
It's a disaster. It's like, well, yeah, that's true. Well yeah,
they never say that he is spending a lot of cash,
like the salary caps different than cash being spent Jeffrey
Lury talked about that. I saw today they are spending more.
(05:19):
I think they've spent more money over the last four
years in cash than any other team in the league.
It's like well over a billion dollars. So he is
not in this to lose. But the betting markets have
Abdul Carter as the heavy favorite to be the number
two overall pick, so maybe they're thinking shad or Sanders.
What the hell's the difference of Shador Sanders. I know,
you like like Riley Leonard's of the world and those
(05:39):
type guys. We can get a guy like that in
the second or third round and maybe he can be
like our cousins or Dak. They also talk and think
like that, so maybe they go, I'd rather have Riley
Leonard or Kyle McCord and Abdul Carter than Shador Sanders
and whoever else we would get in the second round.
So I think you're doing a lot of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, there's a lot of people saying that Jackson Dart
has a better arm than shaduor Sanders, so you might
as well just wait and draft Jackson Dart. Although I
would say he's not nearly as accurate as Shadur Sanders.
An accuracy to me is like a real thing, maybe
the most important thing. Jalen Milrose mechanical. I think he
(06:20):
has to fold the right hands or he could just
be Anthony Richards at two point zero.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
You know, I've said Kyle McCord at Syracuse. I take
him in the second round and feel pretty good. I
will say this though, that you know, people say it's
not a very good draft, and I'll tell you I
look at certain teams that need skill players, like the
(06:46):
New York Giants. If they got Travis Hunter with their
first pick and then their second pick, god, is it
Trayvon Henderson from Ohio State. Yeah, with molite neighbors. I
look at that and I think myself, Oh, that's a
great draft for the New York Giants because I like
their head coach as an offensive coach, and I think
(07:08):
Russell will actually be a better version of the Pittsburgh
Russell because I think Mike Tomlins culture is years behind
Brian Daball offensively. Is there a team in this draft
that you look at and think, you know, it's not
a great draft, but what they need running back, tight end,
defensive tackle, there's a surplus of in this draft.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, I think if you look at the Giants, if
you're Brian day Ball, people go, why would they sign
both those two guys? Because Brian Dayball's coaching for his job,
Shador Sanders does not help him at all in twenty
twenty five. So he can take two quarterbacks, let the
cream rise out of the two and go back and forth.
He would go all in on Travis Hunter. He would
want players that help him win immediately. So if you
(07:50):
tell me they get Travis Hunter and they're starting running
back or starting tight end or just another more explosive player, yeah,
I mean I think the Giants are just much more feasib.
You watch him at the end of the year last
year when they had some injuries. It's like that this
team has a lot of parallels with the Patriots, right,
just no talent. What's going on here? But all of
a sudden you get Molik Neighbors, which he has concussion issues.
(08:13):
You know, you get another concussion. That's a little scary,
But there is no disputing his physical gifts. I mean,
he's a freak. I mean that's one you look back
and this is the hard part about the draft. There
is no such thing as a high floor because any
player might not work out. It doesn't matter how your
floor is determined once you get in the NFL. All
I heard last year is like Marvin Harrison's floor is
(08:33):
so Highlik's Malik could be boom or bust. And then
you watch You're like, you don't think the Arizona Cardinals
regret not going Moleak Neighbors over Marvin Harrison Junior, because
they do, and the Giants benefited from them making that choice.
And I think we use that term a lot. Ceilings
are real, like certain guys have higher ceilings. Cam Ward's
ceiling is obviously higher than Shad or Sanders, but a
(08:55):
floor like we've seen all sorts of players not work
out in the end. Ever know, and we always played
this game a couple of years later, should have taken him?
Should have taken him? No one knew that information. As
we sit here a month away from the draft. If
we would have known Richard Sherman and George Kittle and
these guys exist in the fifth round, they would have
been top twenty picks. So it is a little bit
(09:16):
of a crapshooting. I think it gets more difficult in
a class like this, which obviously there are gonna be
a lot of really good players that come out of
this draft, but no one feels that confident on a
lot of these guys. You know, it's like, well, how
high is Mason Graham's ceiling? Or it's like what's his name?
The LSU tackle, It's like, well, yeah, arm length kind
of matters at left tackle, but what if in five
(09:38):
years he just becomes an All Pro guard? But you
don't take an all Pro guard probably at five overall, right,
you'd rather have a tackle. So there's just a lot
of unknown, which I think a lot of these the
scouting community is just there's like, yeah, it's kind of
coin flip year. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I mean in your years of being a scout, I mean,
you have your top one hundred and fifty players, like
and you also have the red players that you won't
draft either personnel, personality problems, character issues or injuries. Are
there any dramatic moves with two to three weeks to
(10:15):
go in the draft process when in your experience.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, I would say you know the information most of
these teams, you know with the owners meetings, so all
the gms and coaches are flying home, if not last
night today and by either the end of the week
or first thing next week, all your scouts come in
and the scouts and your you know, your personnel people,
some of your other executives have been on campuses over
the last month, right meeting with coaches other personnel at
(10:41):
those schools. Certain guys you don't have to worry about
anything off the field, like they're just it's just perfect,
you know Andrew lux Or, But there are a ton
of those guys in the draft where it's like, you
don't even But there are some guys maybe not legalot
like they've been arrested or you know, crazy bad things,
but they're just like how much does he really like football?
Which might be a non negotiable in the organization, like
(11:03):
the Ravens don't draft many people that aren't addicted to
football watch them play over the last twenty years. So
you're just like, maybe you've heard some stuff and you
bring that information back to your GM, to your head coach,
and that can sway stuff. So it's not like a
dramatic unless someone gets in trouble and that becomes public knowledge.
But it's basic things like yeah, I've heard some things
that this guy might not be quite what we thought
(11:26):
as a person, because I think when you know a
lot of these people, when you talk to coaches and executives,
most people fail, especially draft in the first couple of rounds,
like they're meeting a lot of the requirements of height, weight, speed,
played a sweet schools. It's usually the person that fails focus,
screw around, not dialed in, doesn't really like football. Football
(11:49):
is not like baseball where you just get to play
every day, or basketball where you play three times a week.
You practice basically five days a week and you play
once and you only hit seventeen of the those games.
For the majority of the league. You don't go to
the playoffs, and then you get OTAs you get training camp.
It's a lot of sitting in a room watching tape,
getting yelled at, getting up early, going to you know,
(12:11):
going to bed soar. It's not you know, Ray Lewis,
you pay me Monday through Saturday. Sundays are for free.
There's a lot to that. It's why the best players
typically are football addicts at all the positions, right the
JJ Watts, the Trent Williams that you just go around,
George Kittle, you know at every Travis Kelcey forever, all
the patriot type guys, the human being, but you got
(12:34):
to be careful with overvaluing that because you do need
to be able to play, and that's I think Belichick
got in trouble at the end of his career. So
it's it's hard. I mean, you run a company hiring people.
You've had a lot of people on your show for
years before even the volume. It's you're dealing with human
beings with a lot of pressure, with a very public job.
It's we all shit on it when guys miss, and
(12:57):
it's fair sometimes, but it's also like, this is really
really difficult to, you know, pick a guy. I hear
this a lot. Why can't the Chiefs find a tackle? Well,
it's like, guys, they've draft thirty one or thirty second
every single year. They don't have that much cap space.
And I don't know if you've checked free agency. Usually
Hall of Fame tackles don't hit free agency. It's like,
(13:17):
what do you want him to do? Like Lane Johnson
isn't usually sitting there at pick thirty two, And when
you're drafting at pick thirty two, you're also drafting at
the end of the second round and the third round.
It's it's much easier to draft when you're the Titans
and you dictate every round than it is when you're
the Bills or the Ravens or the Chiefs. How do you.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
How do you think the entire league accept San Francisco
missed on brock Prudy. I mean, listen, I don't think
I understand that he's not big, strong, But when he
left Iowa State with a good coach, Matt Campbell, that
program was a mess the next year, like they were
a mess? Did they overthink the room? I mean again,
(14:05):
I understand it. In Brady's generation, dude, all of his
games are on TV, They're on some network somewhere. There
are bigger scouting departments than ever. Why do you think
people missed on brock Purdy who this week Jed York said, yeah,
we're gonna sign him to he's a top ten quarterback
in the league.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, I think we naturally discriminate against shorter quarterbacks. I mean,
you know, you got to be pretty pretty special to
be a short quarterback like Kyler Murray. You know, Baker
Mayfield's winning the Heisman. He's at a smaller you know,
non traditional power. I heard Daniel Jeremiah say something a
couple of days ago to our buddy Yogi Roth, and
(14:43):
I guess he did a photo shoot with Brock or
did something through Toyota and spent some time with him
and asked DJ asked Purdy, like, what do you think
we miss people did evaluate on your position that you
never hear anyone talk about. And Brock respond He's like,
I don't ever hear anyone say like does this guy
inspire his teammates? And DJ was like, I've never heard
(15:07):
anyone talk like that, and then he started thinking the
best quarterbacks Brady, you know, Breeze, Farv Manning. It's like, oh,
they kind of were just like Mel Gibson leading the
troops here, right. And I'll never forget when perty when
Jimmy Garoppolo Garoppolo broke his foot, and remember the Niners
were rolling with him. I was like, they're screwed the
(15:27):
seventh rounder. And I'll never forget that. Next week leading
into the game, guys like Fred Warner and people on
defense and Nick Bosa saying because they had been practicing
against him because he was the scout team quarterback, talk
about him like he had been like a five year
NFL pro and it's like, I don't think Fred Warner
and Nick Bosa. I've watched these guys careers. They don't
just throw around this. He is really good in the
(15:50):
locker room with his guys. And that goes from Trent
Williams to I was on a plane flight going to
the Super Bowl with Deebo Samuel who at the times
asking for a trade and the way he spoke. He
loves Brock And obviously Brock is an accurate player, He's smart,
he can process stuff, He's good in Kyle's scheme. He's
an underrated athlete. But like you know, Brady's the greatest
(16:11):
teammate of all time, right, Peyton Manning clearly just resonates
with the guys. It's kind of been a knock on Rogers,
but you look at Mahomes, team loves him. Josh Allen
loved Lamar, loved Burrow. These guys love Burrow. That kind
of matters. And I think Perty just there's something about
(16:32):
him that he just gets guys. Because at the end
of the day, from a player standpoint, he's kind of
this as the quarterback, you're the CEO of the team,
and he's kind of good at that. I remember hearing
that in Philly when remember when Jalen technically wasn't a
Wally pipp because Carson wasn't injured, he just got benched.
It's like, yeah, the guys just like Jalen more. They
just like they don't really get Carson. They just like Jalen,
(16:55):
and it's like, we don't really discuss that, and sometimes
you see it's like, yeah, I don't think the team
really likes well, I mean kind of been a thing
with Russell.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Oh yes, I mean Russell. The minute he got out
of his athletic prime, he couldn't do it. He couldn't
do it on motivation and inspiration. He did it on elusiveness.
And the minute that was gone, he aged very very quickly.
And I think there's something too that I think Cam
Newton had a little bit of that where Cam was
sort of about Cam and once he was out of
(17:24):
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Speaker 2 (18:55):
I wanted to so the you know the overs and
unders are coming out, so I want us to give
the audience have some fun here. Two overs and two
unders and all start this. All the odds are provided
by DraftKings sportsbook. So I'm going to give you an under,
then you give me an under, and I'll give you
(19:19):
another under, and then we'll do two overs. So my
first under is the Chiefs at eleven and a half. Okay,
Joe Tooney was by far and away the most had
the most dexterity of any of their offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
He's gone.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They are now crossing their fingers on a backup left
tackle from San Francisco. They were eleven and oh in
one possession games, right, and now the division is much better.
The coaching and the quarterback play Bo Nixon year two
Geno Smith if they get a running back in the
first round. Geno Smith has a one zero six passer
(19:59):
rating in Seattle on play action passing like if you
give him a run game. Gino's very good on third
and two, right, He's very good with play action passing,
second in five, third and two, third and three. So
I don't think I would take the under. Now, maybe
(20:19):
they just go eleven and six. But I think the
division is going to be improved, the quarterback play between
Gino second year bo Again. I thought last year there
were offensive line injuries with the Chargers. My guess is
they'll be healthier. Okay, what say you give me an
Give me an under?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Do you say ten and a half? On that number, it's.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Eleven and a half. DraftKings has the Chiefs at eleven
and a half. I would bet the.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Under got you. They've won over twelve games. I think
every year Mahomes has started beside one. Yeah, but I
hear you. It's you can have a good year. I
mean they won a super Bowl, winning eleven. I would
say an under. I like I do think the forty
nine ers who are to the Rams won that division
(21:07):
and were really good and honestly, I mean a couple
of plays away from potentially beating the Eagles, and who knows,
they might end up in the Super Bowl and win it.
They wanted a ten and seven, right, so, and they're
a team going through a lot of transition. So the
forty nine ers won six games, though they were in
a lot of them. They kind of melted at the
end in a lot of them. So I actually think
(21:28):
I think a lot of people are gonna think they're
gonna win like six or seven games. I think they're
gonna be better than people think. But once you start
getting over ten, like ten and a half, like you
could win nine or ten games, be that seven seed, hell,
compete to win the division and have a good season.
So I think the days, you know, definitely this season
that's gonna be very dependent on young rookie players.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, they have twelve draft picks.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, I mean that's we've seen the Rams the last
couple of years. I don't know exactly, they've been a
fantastic team at the end of the year, that they're
not winning twelve games. So I think the Niners probably
more likely to win nine or ten games. I don't
think that division is just going to be you know,
the Cardinals are just a tough game every time you
play them. Obviously, the Rams are good in Seattle going
(22:12):
through a little bit of a transitional period, but they're
head coach. I think they're pretty well run operation.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, listen, they're one of my unders too at ten
and a half. Yeah, they tried to get green Law
back from Denver. They did not want to lose Hufunga. Okay,
those were two big defensive losses. And let's be honest, John,
the Bosas get hurt when Bosa was off the field.
Last year. They were not a very good defense. They
(22:38):
were really inconsistent. So now Whufungus gone, green Law's gone,
Bosa will miss a stretch and it's not a great draft.
So I don't think there's an impact player defensively. Maybe
if they got like Will Johnson at corner from Michigan,
I think that would be a really really you'd have
to be happy with that. But yeah, I think I
(23:00):
have San Francisco as an under. So I have Kansas City,
you have San Francisco, I have San Francisco. Give me
another under.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I would say, I think there's a chance Miami is
like the one of the worst teams in the NFL. Like,
it would not shock me if you tell me. As
you and I are sitting here doing a pre draft.
A couple of weeks. Miami's in the mix. Maybe they
don't have the number one overall pick, but I could
see him being like the giants of the Patriots draft
in three or four. It would not shock me to
see them struggle to win four or five games. I
(23:31):
think they're going to be terrible. I thought that last year,
and they just obviously when two was on the field,
they're more functional. It would not surprise me at all
if this Tyreek situation doesn't go away and he ends
up playing for another team this year. I don't know
if that trade would happen during the draft. I know
they've pushed back against that, maybe at the end of
training camp. But I just expect Miami to implode. I
(23:54):
really do. I mean, I don't really like the Jets
that much either, but like even last year, the Jets
do have a lot of good Oh absolutely, I just
don't think Miami has that many good players, and they
are one concussion away from all of a sudden, Zach
Wilson's are starting quarterback.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yes, okay, I'll give you an over. I think Brian
Callahan's a good coach. I think Will Levis is a
really really bad NFL quarterback. I don't think he was
a great college quarterback. And so I look at the
over under on Tennessee and you know it's five and
(24:29):
a half. Some have had it at six and a half.
I think they clear that bar easily. First of all,
cam Ward's a playmaker, and nobody's got real film on him.
He didn't do a lot of straight pocket stuff in college.
It was a lot of backyard stuff. And I think
(24:51):
the league will take a while. And they did this
with Jayden Daniels. It took a while to decode him.
People were bo Nicks. You'd not quite sure what he is.
It's a weak division. The Jags could be bad, the
Colts would be bad. Houston should be pretty good, but
not great. I think I'm gonna take the Titans over.
I think it's a pretty week schedule. I think cam
(25:14):
Ward is one of the only players in the draft
that can equal wins. I think people think Callahan's a
pretty good coach. And Callahan didn't just lack trust in
will Levis. If you listened to his postgame comments after losses,
he lost them three games straight out, and you watched
his body language, he almost resented that will Levis was
(25:36):
getting in the way of wins, and so I Titans
to me earn over.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, I don't think people. You know, we talk a
lot about the Browns because of Watson, because Deshaun Watson's
quarterback play by the month and no one was watching
the Titans. Their quarterback play was like historically poor. I mean,
the turnovers, the sacks he was taking. It was. Their
defense was actually pretty good. Yes, And like any team
with a pretty good defense, when your offense is that
(26:02):
crappy by the time you get to like mid November,
they can't maintain that level of play because they're on
the field so much. So if their offense is just solid,
I'm with you. I mean, he's got his dad there
coaching offensive line. Massive upgrade just based on talent alone.
I would say this, if you look at Vrabel, like
the linebacker version of Harbaugh, you know, wants to play defense,
(26:24):
wants to run the ball. Former players, just guys that
just win. I think the Patriots we're right up there
with the Bears as one of the worst coach teams
you will ever see. Last season. Why couldn't they go
nine to eight this year? So go the Jets. The
Jets are gonna be awful. I think the Dolphins are
gonna be worse. Yep, listen to the Bills. Who cares
(26:45):
that even if they sweep you. I could see the
Patriots winning eight or nine games.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Listen, they were seven and a half DraftKings. They are
now up to eight and a half. So the Sharks,
it looks like we're all over the Patriots. So New
England was one of my overs. And I said the
other day on the air, I said, I think Vrabel
from girod Mayo is worth three points. I think Drake
May is worth another point based on sophomore season. And
(27:12):
I think it's reasonable assume one hundred and ninety million
in free agency and eight to nine draft picks is
worth one and a half to two points. So if
they're just five and a half points to six points better.
And again you're talking about between the draft and free agency,
like eight to nine new starters and a couple of
high end starters. You're talking about Drake May potentially with
(27:33):
a Travis Hunter. You're talking about the worst coach team
to probably one of the seven to eight to nine
best coach teams. That's five and a half to six points.
They were three and six in one possession games with
a rookie quarterback. If that's just six and three, you
don't have to go nine to zero. This is an
eight to nine win team. And again the Jets are
a bit lost. I agree with you, Miami's a mess.
(27:54):
So I think New England's in play.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I would say the other team would be speaking of
Harbaugh the Chargers. You know, last year, I just didn't
pull the trigger and he did exactly what he yes did.
They were the five seed. Well this year it's nine
and a half, and everyone always gets off the scent
with them. During like free agency, Jim is not going
to trade for DK Metcalf and give one hundred and
(28:18):
fifty million dollars. He didn't do it last year. He's
not gonna do it this year. He won't do it
next year. You know what he will do though, in
like the second round, all of a sudden, he will
draft his starting tight end for the next seven years
and in the third round find a defensive tackle that
everyone's going, this guy's not that sexy who will just
be a starter for him for a long time. Then
you watch the season and you just go, God, their
team is just physical and good. He has a really
(28:39):
talented quarterback. Why couldn't they win twelve games? I mean,
they're over under right now is nine and a half.
I think they are a lock. I mean, Jim Harbaugh
is now coach in the NFL five years and made
the playoffs and four of them. So I don't know
if they can overtake the Chiefs, but it wouldn't shock
me if it gets a little closer. And don't let
free agency fool you. He's never gonna play in swimming
(29:02):
that into the pool. They are never gonna do that.
But you know, you've talked about this huge advantage for Jim.
All these kids coming in the draft. He's recruited them all,
especially the good ones, so he's gonna know these guys.
It's gonna be a huge point of difference for him.
I would expect them to have a good draft. His
GM I think is pretty good. I mean, look at
last year, It's like, how did they pass on Malak Davers?
(29:22):
I don't know, they just got their starting tackle for
the next decade. So I think the Chargers they fooled
me is the wrong word. I just didn't have the
kahonas just because I was like, I don't know if
their roster is quite good enough, they are not gonna
have great ride receivers. He typically never does, and he
always wins. He won a national championship, he went to
a Super Bowl, like he's not exactly gonna have Jerry
(29:45):
Rice in his prime, and it's gonna work out just fine.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, speaking of college football, so I mean, and the
draft is obviously a convergence of pro and college football.
I love this whole and luck GM of Stanford, and
like now college football has an NFL field where teams
are paying players and there's a general manager. You know.
(30:09):
I got into this conversation the other day with somebody about,
you know, the NFL Draft and Dion Sanders, and Dion
looks like he is all in on Colorado, and he
looks like he is stepping back on you know, helicoptering
as a dad, which I understand on his sun should
or Sanders.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Are you surprised.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That Dion Sanders appears to be all in on college
football and all in in the most unlikely place that
Dion Sanders, a Christian man, would land Boulder, Colorado, which
is you can smell the cannabis from Denver. It is
a quirky anti establishment. I mean, it's it's thank you
(31:00):
Gene Oregon, which I love, but it's I would have
never guessed that Dion Sanders would have picked Colorado, And
when he signed that extension, I thought, Jesus, he's really
all in on this thing. Are you surprised?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
A little? And I always give a guy a lot
of credit. And I don't have Dion's financials in front
of me, but I think it's safe to say he
did not need to go into college football for money.
Like he was already pretty well off and done pretty
well financially and one thing wants his children leave right
to go to the NFL. He easily could have been
like it's been a good run. Yeah, maybe I'll do
(31:36):
it for a cople more. Yes, this feels like Deon
Sanders more than likely is going to be coaching four
years to come, and eventually I expect him one day
to be in the SEC or some big program. Right.
John Lytz did the same thing. It's like John Lynch
really gonna be the GM nine years later. The guy's
all in. He's going through like transitional periods. He's like,
let's do it. It's like these guys love football. I
mean to not having been around coaches and these players
(31:58):
that get into coaching. You gotta be a football addict,
and I think people underestimate, especially Dion. I'll never forget.
I've told this story before. Bobby April, who is a
special teams coach in Atlanta. He's like, you know, everyone
got it wrong with Deon because at the time he's
in these music videos and the chains and kind of
just the way he carried himself. This guy sat in
(32:19):
the front of my meetings, no one practiced harder, and
like he was just a special guy to coach. He's
like I, no one I would rather coach than a
guy like Deon Sanders. And I think if you had
asked me at fifteen years old in the mid nineties
like Dion would have felt like a pain in the butt,
like a too. He was the opposite. I think as
(32:39):
a player, people loved coaching him. Here's the other thing
he's got going on now. His buddies are with him,
Warren Sapps's defensive line coach, Marshall Fawkes's running back coach.
I bet he's just pretty cool place to work. Plus,
here's the thing with Colorado, they kind of needed him
more than he needed them, and now they've paid him
a lot of money. Like and the other thing with
(33:00):
the transfer portal. If you're willing to cut checks, I
think obviously you're going to have advantages at Texas or
Ohio State, but at Colorado in his the other thing,
look a look at his conference? Why why can't he compete?
You know, Oklahoma State's kind of falling apart, and t
Boone Pickens is no longer around. Why couldn't he make serious?
Arizona State was just in the playoffs. Yon's got to
(33:22):
be thinking, if we can recruit pretty well the next
couple of years, why couldn't we win ten eleven games
and win this conference to get a bid? And he's
not wrong. And then eventually, if Florida or one of
those schools calls, I think he would eventually take it.
But I don't think he's just leaving for a quote
unquote like lateral job anymore. It would have to be
a cream of the crop gig like he's they're paying
(33:42):
him what basically ten eleven twelve million dollars a year
for the next five years.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, it's I've got to be I've got to be
upfront here. I always thought Dion was a little inauthentic.
I mean, I know he had a belief, you know,
religious conviction, but he was always a little showy for me.
The Tim McCarver baseball stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
You know, that's what Bobby, That's what Bobby April used
to say. Don't let that fool you, because at his
core he loves When they were for his first year
during spring practice, they were tackling to the ground and
I went, you know where Deon gets mistaken by a
lot of people. This guy is an eighties nineties football guy.
This guy grew up around George Seaffert with those cowboy teams.
Even the Atlanta teams when he first got there weren't terrible.
(34:24):
Like this guy was used to a culture in football
that is not the culture now right. That's why when
that the story came out about Troy Taylor, who Andrew
luck has fired and Stanford fired, I was like, there's
not enough detail, like is this guy just an asshole
or is he is he legitimately crossing the line because
there football culture is not like a pretty place. You're
getting yelled at a lot a lot of swear worlds.
(34:46):
It's it's just an edgy environment offseason and in season,
and I think Deon's just Deon's very comfortable in football.
You know certain people you're comfortable behind the mike. Deon's
just comfortable around football players running football practice. Now he's
clearly you know. I was impressed Warren Sapp's hiring to
be the d line coach, and by the mid season
(35:07):
that I was gambling on Colorado a lot. I was like,
got their defensive line is really improved.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
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(35:39):
right now is in an interesting place. Baseball's on fire.
I mean the torpedo bats, I mean there's just it's great.
And I mean women's basketball. Caitlin Clark is a real
she's a real sensation. I mean the Jimmy Butler moved
to the Warriors, and Luca Lebroun is absolutely infused the league,
there's no question. And the College Football Playoff. I told
(36:01):
J Mack and I talked about this last this week,
and I said, when I got into this business, like
when football ended, you had like a month of it
was dead. And I'm like, well, now football has been
extended two weeks and they're going to add an eighteenth
game and they're going to give us another buy so
that will extend it two more weeks. And I'm like,
(36:21):
football now is Labor Day to March. First, you get
a week on vacation, you come back, it's free agency
and the tournament. And I really like what college football
is doing. I'm not a traditionalist, and I do think
the NIL bringing in general managers now is necessary. I
don't want, you know, I don't want Lincoln Riley and
Ryan Day being capologists, Like let's get somebody in the
(36:44):
building that knows what the hell they're doing.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
But I.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
You know, the only fear I have about football this
is weird. But you know, remember a few years ago
in the NFL really made a point of targeting women
and moms because you were having in certain states the
turnout level dropped precipitously with concussion fears, And I was
thinking about this the other day, John, I don't remember
a draft with less hyperbole this. People are saying, this
(37:14):
is as bad a draft as we've had. Like outside
a running back and maybe defensive tackle, there's just not
a ton of talent. And I do wonder if this
is the first draft and this now the NBA two
out of three drafts don't give us much. I mean,
Cooper Flag is a domestic product. This good is so rare.
You can't even name the last domestic product that was
(37:34):
looked this good. Zion was fantastic, but he didn't have
the dimensions and the dexterity and the overall game of
Cooper Flag. He was he was a torque machine. He
wasn't this. He wasn't close to this. His game didn't
look like this. Is that in college football. I'm wondering
if about every third or fourth draft this point forward,
because turnout levels of drop, because there's a fear of
(37:56):
concussions with kids. I wonder if we're going to become
the NFL. It's got a little NBA feel to it.
Last year, John, you had ten virtually unwatchable teams double
the number of teams that were non competitive by early December.
(38:16):
Do you think it's possible with lower turnouts and that
the game will start to be a little more NBA,
which there is eight great, eight okay, and twelve unwatchables.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I do think the NFL drafts have always been like
you have some bad drafts, they don't happen as frequently,
I would say, as the NBA. But last year looks
like it has a chance to be like a historically
great quarterback drafts. This is pretty crazy. I mean, obviously
they had twelve guys in the top or six guys
in the top twelve, but three of them are already
pretty good. I would say that one concerning part in
(38:57):
football is Brady's big thing. It's never been easier to
play quarterback. And he's not wrong because you don't get
penalized throwing over the middle. They can't hit you. But
the quarterback play can be pretty bad. I mean, I
feel like guys like fifteen through thirty two are really
hit or miss and their backups. It's just it's and
I think a lot of this is the training in
(39:17):
college now with guys transferring the training in the pros,
you don't have as much I mean training camp, I feel,
and again, the salary cap has changed things. But I
remember growing up, a lot of teams went too deep
with starters. Yes right, their backup was like the burg
or whoever, and it was like that guy could be
a starter somewhere else. And that really isn't the case anymore.
(39:38):
It feels like a lot of teams like if their
starter gets hurt, they will lose every single week. And
so I think the importance on the quarterback is awesome
when it works, when you nail it, but if you
miss or that guy gets injured, the falloff is precipitous
and it's a problem. But I do think that if
(39:59):
you just look over the next couple of years, I
think the talent in college football feels pretty high now.
The difference, though, is, you know, I if I was
an offensive lineman and I went to Iowa or Wisconsin
or just some of these schools, like I was going
to get developed, and more likely I was going to
get drafted if I was a good player. Even if
I wasn't a first round pick, second third, fourth round,
I'd play in the NFL A long time. Well, now
(40:20):
if I'm starting in Iowa and like, god, this guy's
an all conference guy, Ohio State, Georgia and Texas call
you so you start moving around in your development, maybe
pain scheme. Good point, and I do wonder in football?
Good point, you know in the NFL. Like part of
the reason I saw Kyle Shanahan, He's like, I didn't
expect our backup tackle to get fifteen million dollars a year. Well,
(40:44):
I was texting with Andy. They love the guy because
they think, you know, the only reason he didn't start
is because what Hall of Fame tackle and that guy
has played before. They like what they saw and they
know he's a good guy, and they know he's been
coach well, same place, same coaching staff for four years,
so that that guy, you don't last that long. They
depend on you to basically be their swing tackle for
four straight years. If they don't think really highly of you, now,
(41:05):
do they overpay a little bit? We can debate that.
But they know exactly who's been coaching him in college.
It's like, well, he's been two different programs and three
different coordinators. It's a lot of movement now changing stuff,
which I think these the front offices are still trying
to get a feel for this, Yes, because it's it's
never quite been with quarterbacks. Is a little easier with
some of these other positions. Is their development? Do they
(41:28):
actually have room to grow in the pros? You know
that maybe they would have been maxed out before. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I mean take Will Howard. I liked him at Kansas
State and then at Ohio State. Did my perception change
and my expectations because I didn't like him as much
because I was like, well, they got better talent. You
have to be consistently good. Kyle McCord. At Ohio State,
I was like Ham and Eggar. Then I watched them
at Syracuse and I'm like, shit, that's a second round pick.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
That guy's good.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
So I'm wondering if scout you're doing that like just
Ohio State quarterbacks. I'm like Will Howard, I wanted more.
I saw him at Kansas State. I wanted more. I'm
disappointed he may not have changed at all. Kyle McCord.
I'm now on a high because I think he played
with far less talent and he put up huge numbers.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Well, we talked about Purty. Perty's a good example. After
his junior year at Iowa State when he was really
good and they were competing to be like a top
fifteen team. You don't think teams, I mean, Oregon's done
this now like three years in a row. They you know,
Dylan Gabriel, bo Nicks. Teams like that would have called
Brock perty and who knows, maybe Brock Purty then goes
to Oregon. He's playing on national television games and if
(42:35):
he's good, instead of going the last pick in the
seventh round, maybe Purdy goes in the fourth or the
third round. Yeah. So look at these transfer quarterbacks besides
JJ McCarthy. Last year, all transfer guys Drake may didn't.
But remember mac Brown came out going into his junior year,
was like he's offered five million dollars. Luckily he's loyal
to us, and it was pretty clear like the three
(42:56):
teams offering him that much money. This year, all the
quarterbacks are transferred. Cam Ward, this is third school Chador,
Kyle McCord. You know, it's like camp Ward is a
great example. He was going to the East West Shrine
game when he decided to commit to Miami. He probably
would have gone probably third or fourth round last year.
(43:16):
Now he's he's been I mean the Titans from what
I've heard, I was in Nashville month ago, pretty good source.
They've been dead set on him for like a month.
This guy's going the number one pick all because he transferred.
If I were these quarterbacks, it's a no brainer. If
you get the opportunity to jump up to a top
twenty team, and even if you're it is not just
(43:37):
Washington State. What if you're at like Minnesota or some
of these programs, and you can just take that next step.
So that's where in the conference the top dogs can
just they're just feeder systems. All these programs beside the
top fifteen twenty programs are essentially now the Billy ban
Oakland A's They're a minor league program that I'm eventually
going to take your your best players.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, the the NIL. One of the things I love
about sports is innovation because it makes me think, you know,
I get bored of just watching game after game after game,
Like I like trades, I like acquisitions, I love free
agency period and the NIL. It can be tricky because
there's so much mobility and movement among coaches and players.
(44:19):
Like in the NFL, the pension is so good for
a coach. I mean, Dante Scarnekia could have bounced around
and made more money. He's like, I'm going to stay here.
Pension's going to be great. I'm going to make twenty
thousand dollars a month pension once I leave this sport.
Why bounce around, Ernie Adams? Why bounce around? But in
college you don't get that pension. So coaches are just
(44:39):
constantly hopscotching, programmed to program to prom and they all
seemingly all want to be either coordinators or head coaches.
And in the NFL, I find there are some position
coaches that make like between eight hundred thousand and a
million forward.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
It's like pays a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
And the pensions herm Edwers told me is coaching pensions
are better than his player pensions. And so there's so
much more ability at the college level for coaches. And
now the players are moving, so the chances, I mean
bo Knicks didn't have like five coordinators.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah a lot. I actually met a guy that through
the podcast in Arizona that I played golf with. His
son was a big Division I football recruit over the
last couple of years, and he was one of those
guys that showed up at school early, you know, like
right after the winner, you know, went the start of
the technically the winter semester. Within two days of him
(45:32):
enrolling early, his coach takes another job, and forever the
media used to freak how unfair it is, how un
fair it is that kid immediately had the opportunity to
follow his coach or to go ten other places that
had been recruiting him. His phone was blowing up. Now
he chose to stay because he said it was a
lot going on for an eighteen year old. But like
(45:53):
that opportunity that you can move when stuff like that
happens to me has like neutralized the anger or you know,
the Maryland coach. Everyone's up in arms. It's like, guys,
the players can all leave now too, So it's like
everyone is under the same umbrella of And the difference
is if I steal a coach, typically I have to
pay a buyout. These the players can just leave it
(46:15):
free will. But it's like, I mean, who knows some
of these deals that are getting done. So I'm with you.
I think the nil which is kind of stupid. I
heard deonce say this, He's like, how many besides like
Shador Sanders. I turn on television, I don't see anyone
in commercials. It's just pay to play, which is fine,
which is eventually going to change and go to the
revenue sharing be a salary cap. And that's where to me,
(46:38):
the general managers, you know, the Lombardes and the Jim
Naggies and these guys, the GM jobs in college football
are paying. It's not like they're paying one hundred thousand.
Some of them are paying seven figures. These guys are
making or even if you're making seven hundred and fifty
eight hundred thousand dollars, if you're at an SEC school,
google how much the homes are in those areas you
are you're one of the highest paid W two employees
in the area.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah, it's yeah, there's I look at football today and
for the first time in my life, I feel that
college football has been pushed and prodded, but it is
starting to now look closer to the NFL. And to me,
that is a great thing because I've always said there's
(47:22):
one big problem with college football. We have a big
game problem. I mean, Labor Day weekend, you get one
or two big games NFL every one o'clock window. That's
the boring window. The best games are Sunday night Fox
and CBS late afternoon and Monday night and Thursday night
now Amazon biyas big games. The one o'clock window has
at least two big time games every week. I mean,
(47:45):
there's only like fourteen games in the NFL a weekend
seven to eight field big. College football's got sixty games
and four field big. And I think these super conferences
are creating I mean, I mean, you look at USC
schedule this year, five six games, It's like, oh, you
have to watch those. Those are really exciting games. I
like the pivot, I mean, and a lot of it's
(48:07):
Fox and the ESPN said, guys, we're getting rid of
the PAC twelve. We're gonna make these two super conferences.
We're gonna even this expansion to fourteen games in the
playoffs from twelve. This is all about networks. I have
no problem with it. We gave college football free license
forever to do what they want, and they avoided big
(48:28):
games and people the conferences couldn't face the same number
of conference opponents. It was uneven and finally the network
stepped in and said, all right, we're gonna take charge,
and I like it. Last year there were more big
games than ever before.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Totally, and I think I'm pretty confident that I don't
know when this is gonna happen, but it does feel
inevitable right that all the conferences, especially if we go
to like an AFC, NFC SEC Big ten where it's
headed you play the same number of conference games nine
and then you do some sort of rotating with those
extra three. Maybe you get your allowed one non power
(49:04):
for a Fresno State San Diego State type, but no
more UC Davis playing USC like those days half to end.
You're not allowed to play a Division one double a team.
So I still think we can make a couple more
steps because I looked at because I saw Belichick, Mark Andrews,
not Mark Andrews, but David Andrews's former center talked to
(49:24):
the team. So I google their schedule. I mean, they
got some games on that schedule. It's like, this is
it's not his fault. I mean he didn't say, but
some of these teams still, I mean there are weeks
you know, Saban fought this forever. It's like no one
wants to watch you play Mercer and luckily in the NFL.
You know, even if the Eagles are playing the Titans
on a given week, it could end up being a
(49:45):
decent game, and every team has pros, like there are
such a stark difference when Texas is playing McNee state.
It's like you cannot get mad at all the fraternities
for not showing up to that game. He's fifty to
nothing at halftime. So I think we just keep moving
moving forward, especially now you can lose games like there.
(50:05):
As we expand the playoffs go to fourteen teams or whatever,
there is inevitably going to be a three lost team
getting it. I mean there almost was this year.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Ohio State was a twenty point favorite and lost at
home to a bad Michigan team and won the Natty.
So yeah, I think, yeah, I think again. It's it's
I never like college football. It really mattered when you lost.
And I watched Kansas City win a Super Bowl two
years ago and play poorly in December, like when you know,
(50:35):
they always say idealism and cynicism kill progress, and they
were just college football and baseball fans. Too many purists
and traditionalists for me, like, let's just make it better,
let's have more big games. Let's not crush a season
because you lose in October for the second time. Like
if you reel off seven straight wins, get you in
the playoff, like this idea of and you know, and
(50:57):
there's some old things I like, are things in sports
that I miss the Rose Bowl, like when it really mattered.
But how many times could I watched you know, Washington
and Iowa. Like, let's at some point and I think
what happens, John, And I've over the course of my.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Life, I've learned this.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Everybody, certain people seek comfort in tradition, totally get it,
and not everybody grows. At the same time, it took
a lot of Americans to get comfortable with gay marriage.
It took a lot of people. Many still aren't comfortable
with legal cannabis. And there's a lot of sports fans
like they are just kicking and screaming. Here's all I
know about college football. Ohio State can lose as a
(51:38):
twenty point favorite and still get in. It's like, of
course they should get in. Of course they're one of
the twelve best teams. And Ohio State's opening with Texas.
Texas is opening with Ohio State. It doesn't matter who loses.
Ohio State lost to Oregon, it doesn't matter in the end.
If it's a competitive game, they'll both get into the playoff.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
I mean, I'm open minded like you, but there are
parts like I do think watching the NCAA Tournament, it
was weird seeing Oregon play Arizona and going, this is
a Big Ten versus Big twelve matchup. That was a
little bizarre in Sweet sixteen, But like, should Washington State
be in a power for conference? And I appreciate how
hard they try and everything, they should probably play Boise
(52:22):
State Forresne State in San Diego State, that feels right.
So it's like you could argue you could even trim
the fat with some of the teams in the Big Ten, right,
I mean some of these programs like the Yeah, I
mean Maryland. I mean you see that coach, He's like,
I'm out for Villanova, you know. So it's just like
I I think it's ultimately going to happen an AFC
(52:44):
NFC version of college football. And it's clear words, head,
it's the SEC and the Big Ten. We know Notre
Dame will they'll gravitate to or Clemson in Florida State,
Miami will gravitate too. In North Carolina. Maybe you take
Stamford and some of the academic schools with you to
the northern one, and that's what's gonna happen. And then
you only play each other because why the other thing
(53:05):
is now, with the amount of money that's on the line,
why would I pay UC Davis or Montana to come
in for one and a half million dollars? Why wouldn't
we Just the NFL would never do that. They just
pull their money and they keep it to spread it
with their partners' So why the SEC gets so angry.
They're making so much money and they push back, we
should get more people into the playoffs. And I don't
(53:25):
even think they're necessarily wrong, but it's like, how about
we all get under the same umbrella. Yeah, and then
those teams all have the opportunity to go. But like
the NFL, everyone's playing everybody they don't like randomly. The
Patriots don't get to schedule the UFL the Birmingham Bombers
right right, because they got the bills coming up next week.
And that to me is the next step, which it
(53:48):
feels closer to, like ten years away than two years away.
But it does feel inevitable at this point in time,
right with the amount of money and with how much
they're gonna have to pay these players, because obviously the
quarterbacks make a lot of money, but you and I
hear stories about how much some of these other guys
are making. It's the numbers aren't going to go down,
They're only going to rise. So let's let's keep all
(54:09):
a pool, all of our money like the NFL, or
like the NBA, and just keep everyone in the same pool.
And it sucks, but Washington States and the Fresno States
and the you're kind of just shit out of luck.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
John Middlikoff is always buddy. Thanks appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Thanks going the volume.
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
As I've told you, Fubo is my favorite way to
watch live sports. Flying from Chicago to LA this past week,
I'm all over Fubo, NFL, NBA, Baseball, college sports tournament,
Baseball's here, Masters next week. You know, sometimes you're at
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you just want you want that phone and you want
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(00:25):
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Speaker 1 (00:42):
But check it out.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
FuboTV dot Com slash column fifty bucks off two months
Fubo TV. All right, John Middlikoff, former NFL scout, you
know him, you love him the podcast three and out,
loves his golf as well. As we get ready for
the Masters that's around the corner. But we've got some
(01:03):
NFL stuff to talk about. So we got into this
discussion on the show today and I said you know, obviously,
when the NFL had to write almost a you know,
a billion dollar check for CTE, the game got safer
really fast. And you can't touch quarterbacks. You already can't
go high or at the wrong angle on anybody but
(01:26):
a running back going forward. That's why it's really makes
sense to have two and three running backs in the rotation,
because it's the last position you can really clobber from
any angle at any time. And I said, because it's
become such an offensive league, there's only one way to
win with exceptional offensive quarterback play. And I said, here's
(01:47):
the thing about Shnur Sanders. If you're Cleveland, if you
draft him, he is at best the third best quarterback
in that division. He'll never be as good as Burrow.
He's not that kind of prospect. And he's not Lamar Jackson.
If the Steelers hit on a quarterback in the next
two years, he could be four. He's not an exceptional athlete,
not an exceptional arm and if, for instance, the Giants
(02:10):
wanted him, he's not going to be Jayden Daniels and
he's not special athletically like Jalen Hurts. He may be
better than Dak, but again, he would be third best
quarterback in a division. And so my takeaway and Shaudeur
Sanders is do teams think like that? It only takes
one coach to love bow Nicks, right like Sean Payton
(02:31):
loved him because there's a little bit of a doppelganger
with Drew Brees. But when I look at Shaduur and
I like him, I can't argue that Burrow Lamar Chaduur
is three. I can't argue that Jalen and Jaden Daniels
Shaduur is three. And those kind of quarterbacks are infrequent
(02:52):
playoff quarterbacks.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Do scouts think like that? Yeah? I mean these conversations
definitely come up, not only right now but throughout the
fall when your scouts are going in the problem with
that mindset, you would never draft a quarterback because who
the hell is ever going to be better than Lamar
Jackson or Joe Burrow? Right or you know you're never
gonna how are you ever gonna find like a twenty
three year old Matt Stafford. More than likely you're not
(03:15):
gonna draft this high again. And you know two names
that I hear come up a lot or definitely one,
and I'll use another name is Andy Dalton, and I
would throw Derek Carr in there as well. You know,
I think people that say you know that Kype skill set,
historically Shador Sanders, those guys went picked thirty five and
picked thirty six, I think ten years ago. He's going
(03:37):
in the second round and people are very excited about him.
Jimmy Garofflow as well. At the end of the second round.
Andy Dalton has made one hundred and sixty eight starts
in the NFL, and he was in a division with
a fantastic Ravens defense and Roethlisberger in his prime and
they were going to the playoffs all the time. Carr
took a dysfunctional Raider team twice to the playoffs. So
(03:57):
if Shador is in that mold, it's really on the organization.
And if you're the Browns, Andrew Berry's pretty good GM,
Stefanski's pretty good coach. They got a lot of talent
on the team. So if he can just become that
Andy Dalton, Jimmy Garoppolo, Derek Carr, Yeah, you're not gonna
beat you know, if Lamar Jackson or Joe Burrow are on,
they're gonna beat you. But you still have a lot
(04:18):
of other games throughout the season. So it's if you
can build the team well enough, can't you compete to
make the playoffs. I mean, they're drafting two over a
hole right now, right And granted that's because I mean
Deshaun became one of the worst quarterbacks we've ever seen.
Their team just fell apart this year. But more than
likely they're not gonna draft this high again. Now. Is
(04:38):
it an quote unquote overdraft. Yeah, but the reason Mac
Jones and Daniel Jones and those type guys became disastrous.
You couldn't even function with them as your starting quarterback, right,
Andy Dalton. For seven straight years with the Bengals, they
did a good job. You could just every year you
went in like, we're gonna win ten plus games. The
Browns would die to do that. Their owner, who can
(04:59):
be a little off the sometimes I give him credit
for making the comment the other day. You never hear that,
you know, admitting we still all the guy ninety million dollars.
It's a disaster. It's like, well, yeah, that's true. Well yeah,
they never say that he is spending a lot of cash,
like the salary caps different than cash being spent Jeffrey
Lury talked about that. I saw today they are spending more.
(05:19):
I think they've spent more money over the last four
years in cash than any other team in the league.
It's like well over a billion dollars. So he is
not in this to lose. But the betting markets have
Abdul Carter as the heavy favorite to be the number
two overall pick, so maybe they're thinking shad or Sanders.
What the hell's the difference of Shador Sanders. I know,
you like like Riley Leonard's of the world and those
(05:39):
type guys. We can get a guy like that in
the second or third round and maybe he can be
like our cousins or Dak. They also talk and think
like that, so maybe they go, I'd rather have Riley
Leonard or Kyle McCord and Abdul Carter than Shador Sanders
and whoever else we would get in the second round.
So I think you're doing a lot of those conversations.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, there's a lot of people saying that Jackson Dart
has a better arm than shaduor Sanders, so you might
as well just wait and draft Jackson Dart. Although I
would say he's not nearly as accurate as Shadur Sanders.
An accuracy to me is like a real thing, maybe
the most important thing. Jalen Milrose mechanical. I think he
(06:20):
has to fold the right hands or he could just
be Anthony Richards at two point zero.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
You know, I've said Kyle McCord at Syracuse. I take
him in the second round and feel pretty good. I
will say this though, that you know, people say it's
not a very good draft, and I'll tell you I
look at certain teams that need skill players, like the
(06:46):
New York Giants. If they got Travis Hunter with their
first pick and then their second pick, god, is it
Trayvon Henderson from Ohio State. Yeah, with molite neighbors. I
look at that and I think myself, Oh, that's a
great draft for the New York Giants because I like
their head coach as an offensive coach, and I think
(07:08):
Russell will actually be a better version of the Pittsburgh
Russell because I think Mike Tomlins culture is years behind
Brian Daball offensively. Is there a team in this draft
that you look at and think, you know, it's not
a great draft, but what they need running back, tight end,
defensive tackle, there's a surplus of in this draft.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, I think if you look at the Giants, if
you're Brian day Ball, people go, why would they sign
both those two guys? Because Brian Dayball's coaching for his job,
Shador Sanders does not help him at all in twenty
twenty five. So he can take two quarterbacks, let the
cream rise out of the two and go back and forth.
He would go all in on Travis Hunter. He would
want players that help him win immediately. So if you
(07:50):
tell me they get Travis Hunter and they're starting running
back or starting tight end or just another more explosive player, yeah,
I mean I think the Giants are just much more feasib.
You watch him at the end of the year last
year when they had some injuries. It's like that this
team has a lot of parallels with the Patriots, right,
just no talent. What's going on here? But all of
a sudden you get Molik Neighbors, which he has concussion issues.
(08:13):
You know, you get another concussion. That's a little scary,
But there is no disputing his physical gifts. I mean,
he's a freak. I mean that's one you look back
and this is the hard part about the draft. There
is no such thing as a high floor because any
player might not work out. It doesn't matter how your
floor is determined once you get in the NFL. All
I heard last year is like Marvin Harrison's floor is
(08:33):
so Highlik's Malik could be boom or bust. And then
you watch You're like, you don't think the Arizona Cardinals
regret not going Moleak Neighbors over Marvin Harrison Junior, because
they do, and the Giants benefited from them making that choice.
And I think we use that term a lot. Ceilings
are real, like certain guys have higher ceilings. Cam Ward's
ceiling is obviously higher than Shad or Sanders, but a
(08:55):
floor like we've seen all sorts of players not work
out in the end. Ever know, and we always played
this game a couple of years later, should have taken him?
Should have taken him? No one knew that information. As
we sit here a month away from the draft. If
we would have known Richard Sherman and George Kittle and
these guys exist in the fifth round, they would have
been top twenty picks. So it is a little bit
(09:16):
of a crapshooting. I think it gets more difficult in
a class like this, which obviously there are gonna be
a lot of really good players that come out of
this draft, but no one feels that confident on a
lot of these guys. You know, it's like, well, how
high is Mason Graham's ceiling? Or it's like what's his name?
The LSU tackle, It's like, well, yeah, arm length kind
of matters at left tackle, but what if in five
(09:38):
years he just becomes an All Pro guard? But you
don't take an all Pro guard probably at five overall, right,
you'd rather have a tackle. So there's just a lot
of unknown, which I think a lot of these the
scouting community is just there's like, yeah, it's kind of
coin flip year. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I mean in your years of being a scout, I mean,
you have your top one hundred and fifty players, like
and you also have the red players that you won't
draft either personnel, personality problems, character issues or injuries. Are
there any dramatic moves with two to three weeks to
(10:15):
go in the draft process when in your experience.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, I would say you know the information most of
these teams, you know with the owners meetings, so all
the gms and coaches are flying home, if not last
night today and by either the end of the week
or first thing next week, all your scouts come in
and the scouts and your you know, your personnel people,
some of your other executives have been on campuses over
the last month, right meeting with coaches other personnel at
(10:41):
those schools. Certain guys you don't have to worry about
anything off the field, like they're just it's just perfect,
you know Andrew lux Or, But there are a ton
of those guys in the draft where it's like, you
don't even But there are some guys maybe not legalot
like they've been arrested or you know, crazy bad things,
but they're just like how much does he really like football?
Which might be a non negotiable in the organization, like
(11:03):
the Ravens don't draft many people that aren't addicted to
football watch them play over the last twenty years. So
you're just like, maybe you've heard some stuff and you
bring that information back to your GM, to your head coach,
and that can sway stuff. So it's not like a
dramatic unless someone gets in trouble and that becomes public knowledge.
But it's basic things like yeah, I've heard some things
that this guy might not be quite what we thought
(11:26):
as a person, because I think when you know a
lot of these people, when you talk to coaches and executives,
most people fail, especially draft in the first couple of rounds,
like they're meeting a lot of the requirements of height, weight, speed,
played a sweet schools. It's usually the person that fails focus,
screw around, not dialed in, doesn't really like football. Football
(11:49):
is not like baseball where you just get to play
every day, or basketball where you play three times a week.
You practice basically five days a week and you play
once and you only hit seventeen of the those games.
For the majority of the league. You don't go to
the playoffs, and then you get OTAs you get training camp.
It's a lot of sitting in a room watching tape,
getting yelled at, getting up early, going to you know,
(12:11):
going to bed soar. It's not you know, Ray Lewis,
you pay me Monday through Saturday. Sundays are for free.
There's a lot to that. It's why the best players
typically are football addicts at all the positions, right the
JJ Watts, the Trent Williams that you just go around,
George Kittle, you know at every Travis Kelcey forever, all
the patriot type guys, the human being, but you got
(12:34):
to be careful with overvaluing that because you do need
to be able to play, and that's I think Belichick
got in trouble at the end of his career. So
it's it's hard. I mean, you run a company hiring people.
You've had a lot of people on your show for
years before even the volume. It's you're dealing with human
beings with a lot of pressure, with a very public job.
It's we all shit on it when guys miss, and
(12:57):
it's fair sometimes, but it's also like, this is really
really difficult to, you know, pick a guy. I hear
this a lot. Why can't the Chiefs find a tackle? Well,
it's like, guys, they've draft thirty one or thirty second
every single year. They don't have that much cap space.
And I don't know if you've checked free agency. Usually
Hall of Fame tackles don't hit free agency. It's like,
(13:17):
what do you want him to do? Like Lane Johnson
isn't usually sitting there at pick thirty two, And when
you're drafting at pick thirty two, you're also drafting at
the end of the second round and the third round.
It's it's much easier to draft when you're the Titans
and you dictate every round than it is when you're
the Bills or the Ravens or the Chiefs. How do you.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
How do you think the entire league accept San Francisco
missed on brock Prudy. I mean, listen, I don't think
I understand that he's not big, strong, But when he
left Iowa State with a good coach, Matt Campbell, that
program was a mess the next year, like they were
a mess? Did they overthink the room? I mean again,
(14:05):
I understand it. In Brady's generation, dude, all of his
games are on TV, They're on some network somewhere. There
are bigger scouting departments than ever. Why do you think
people missed on brock Purdy who this week Jed York said, yeah,
we're gonna sign him to he's a top ten quarterback
in the league.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, I think we naturally discriminate against shorter quarterbacks. I mean,
you know, you got to be pretty pretty special to
be a short quarterback like Kyler Murray. You know, Baker
Mayfield's winning the Heisman. He's at a smaller you know,
non traditional power. I heard Daniel Jeremiah say something a
couple of days ago to our buddy Yogi Roth, and
(14:43):
I guess he did a photo shoot with Brock or
did something through Toyota and spent some time with him
and asked DJ asked Purdy, like, what do you think
we miss people did evaluate on your position that you
never hear anyone talk about. And Brock respond He's like,
I don't ever hear anyone say like does this guy
inspire his teammates? And DJ was like, I've never heard
(15:07):
anyone talk like that, and then he started thinking the
best quarterbacks Brady, you know, Breeze, Farv Manning. It's like, oh,
they kind of were just like Mel Gibson leading the
troops here, right. And I'll never forget when perty when
Jimmy Garoppolo Garoppolo broke his foot, and remember the Niners
were rolling with him. I was like, they're screwed the
(15:27):
seventh rounder. And I'll never forget that. Next week leading
into the game, guys like Fred Warner and people on
defense and Nick Bosa saying because they had been practicing
against him because he was the scout team quarterback, talk
about him like he had been like a five year
NFL pro and it's like, I don't think Fred Warner
and Nick Bosa. I've watched these guys careers. They don't
just throw around this. He is really good in the
(15:50):
locker room with his guys. And that goes from Trent
Williams to I was on a plane flight going to
the Super Bowl with Deebo Samuel who at the times
asking for a trade and the way he spoke. He
loves Brock And obviously Brock is an accurate player, He's smart,
he can process stuff, He's good in Kyle's scheme. He's
an underrated athlete. But like you know, Brady's the greatest
(16:11):
teammate of all time, right, Peyton Manning clearly just resonates
with the guys. It's kind of been a knock on Rogers,
but you look at Mahomes, team loves him. Josh Allen
loved Lamar, loved Burrow. These guys love Burrow. That kind
of matters. And I think Perty just there's something about
(16:32):
him that he just gets guys. Because at the end
of the day, from a player standpoint, he's kind of
this as the quarterback, you're the CEO of the team,
and he's kind of good at that. I remember hearing
that in Philly when remember when Jalen technically wasn't a
Wally pipp because Carson wasn't injured, he just got benched.
It's like, yeah, the guys just like Jalen more. They
just like they don't really get Carson. They just like Jalen,
(16:55):
and it's like, we don't really discuss that, and sometimes
you see it's like, yeah, I don't think the team
really likes well, I mean kind of been a thing
with Russell.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Oh yes, I mean Russell. The minute he got out
of his athletic prime, he couldn't do it. He couldn't
do it on motivation and inspiration. He did it on elusiveness.
And the minute that was gone, he aged very very quickly.
And I think there's something too that I think Cam
Newton had a little bit of that where Cam was
sort of about Cam and once he was out of
(17:24):
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Speaker 2 (18:55):
I wanted to so the you know the overs and
unders are coming out, so I want us to give
the audience have some fun here. Two overs and two
unders and all start this. All the odds are provided
by DraftKings sportsbook. So I'm going to give you an under,
then you give me an under, and I'll give you
(19:19):
another under, and then we'll do two overs. So my
first under is the Chiefs at eleven and a half. Okay,
Joe Tooney was by far and away the most had
the most dexterity of any of their offensive linemen.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
He's gone.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
They are now crossing their fingers on a backup left
tackle from San Francisco. They were eleven and oh in
one possession games, right, and now the division is much better.
The coaching and the quarterback play Bo Nixon year two
Geno Smith if they get a running back in the
first round. Geno Smith has a one zero six passer
(19:59):
rating in Seattle on play action passing like if you
give him a run game. Gino's very good on third
and two, right, He's very good with play action passing,
second in five, third and two, third and three. So
I don't think I would take the under. Now, maybe
(20:19):
they just go eleven and six. But I think the
division is going to be improved, the quarterback play between
Gino second year bo Again. I thought last year there
were offensive line injuries with the Chargers. My guess is
they'll be healthier. Okay, what say you give me an
Give me an under?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Do you say ten and a half? On that number, it's.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Eleven and a half. DraftKings has the Chiefs at eleven
and a half. I would bet the.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Under got you. They've won over twelve games. I think
every year Mahomes has started beside one. Yeah, but I
hear you. It's you can have a good year. I
mean they won a super Bowl, winning eleven. I would
say an under. I like I do think the forty
nine ers who are to the Rams won that division
(21:07):
and were really good and honestly, I mean a couple
of plays away from potentially beating the Eagles, and who knows,
they might end up in the Super Bowl and win it.
They wanted a ten and seven, right, so, and they're
a team going through a lot of transition. So the
forty nine ers won six games, though they were in
a lot of them. They kind of melted at the
end in a lot of them. So I actually think
(21:28):
I think a lot of people are gonna think they're
gonna win like six or seven games. I think they're
gonna be better than people think. But once you start
getting over ten, like ten and a half, like you
could win nine or ten games, be that seven seed, hell,
compete to win the division and have a good season.
So I think the days, you know, definitely this season
that's gonna be very dependent on young rookie players.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, they have twelve draft picks.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, I mean that's we've seen the Rams the last
couple of years. I don't know exactly, they've been a
fantastic team at the end of the year, that they're
not winning twelve games. So I think the Niners probably
more likely to win nine or ten games. I don't
think that division is just going to be you know,
the Cardinals are just a tough game every time you
play them. Obviously, the Rams are good in Seattle going
(22:12):
through a little bit of a transitional period, but they're
head coach. I think they're pretty well run operation.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, listen, they're one of my unders too at ten
and a half. Yeah, they tried to get green Law
back from Denver. They did not want to lose Hufunga. Okay,
those were two big defensive losses. And let's be honest, John,
the Bosas get hurt when Bosa was off the field.
Last year. They were not a very good defense. They
(22:38):
were really inconsistent. So now Whufungus gone, green Law's gone,
Bosa will miss a stretch and it's not a great draft.
So I don't think there's an impact player defensively. Maybe
if they got like Will Johnson at corner from Michigan,
I think that would be a really really you'd have
to be happy with that. But yeah, I think I
(23:00):
have San Francisco as an under. So I have Kansas City,
you have San Francisco, I have San Francisco. Give me
another under.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I would say, I think there's a chance Miami is
like the one of the worst teams in the NFL. Like,
it would not shock me if you tell me. As
you and I are sitting here doing a pre draft.
A couple of weeks. Miami's in the mix. Maybe they
don't have the number one overall pick, but I could
see him being like the giants of the Patriots draft
in three or four. It would not shock me to
see them struggle to win four or five games. I
(23:31):
think they're going to be terrible. I thought that last year,
and they just obviously when two was on the field,
they're more functional. It would not surprise me at all
if this Tyreek situation doesn't go away and he ends
up playing for another team this year. I don't know
if that trade would happen during the draft. I know
they've pushed back against that, maybe at the end of
training camp. But I just expect Miami to implode. I
(23:54):
really do. I mean, I don't really like the Jets
that much either, but like even last year, the Jets
do have a lot of good Oh absolutely, I just
don't think Miami has that many good players, and they
are one concussion away from all of a sudden, Zach
Wilson's are starting quarterback.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yes, okay, I'll give you an over. I think Brian
Callahan's a good coach. I think Will Levis is a
really really bad NFL quarterback. I don't think he was
a great college quarterback. And so I look at the
over under on Tennessee and you know it's five and
(24:29):
a half. Some have had it at six and a half.
I think they clear that bar easily. First of all,
cam Ward's a playmaker, and nobody's got real film on him.
He didn't do a lot of straight pocket stuff in college.
It was a lot of backyard stuff. And I think
(24:51):
the league will take a while. And they did this
with Jayden Daniels. It took a while to decode him.
People were bo Nicks. You'd not quite sure what he is.
It's a weak division. The Jags could be bad, the
Colts would be bad. Houston should be pretty good, but
not great. I think I'm gonna take the Titans over.
I think it's a pretty week schedule. I think cam
(25:14):
Ward is one of the only players in the draft
that can equal wins. I think people think Callahan's a
pretty good coach. And Callahan didn't just lack trust in
will Levis. If you listened to his postgame comments after losses,
he lost them three games straight out, and you watched
his body language, he almost resented that will Levis was
(25:36):
getting in the way of wins, and so I Titans
to me earn over.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, I don't think people. You know, we talk a
lot about the Browns because of Watson, because Deshaun Watson's
quarterback play by the month and no one was watching
the Titans. Their quarterback play was like historically poor. I mean,
the turnovers, the sacks he was taking. It was. Their
defense was actually pretty good. Yes, And like any team
with a pretty good defense, when your offense is that
(26:02):
crappy by the time you get to like mid November,
they can't maintain that level of play because they're on
the field so much. So if their offense is just solid,
I'm with you. I mean, he's got his dad there
coaching offensive line. Massive upgrade just based on talent alone.
I would say this, if you look at Vrabel, like
the linebacker version of Harbaugh, you know, wants to play defense,
(26:24):
wants to run the ball. Former players, just guys that
just win. I think the Patriots we're right up there
with the Bears as one of the worst coach teams
you will ever see. Last season. Why couldn't they go
nine to eight this year? So go the Jets. The
Jets are gonna be awful. I think the Dolphins are
gonna be worse. Yep, listen to the Bills. Who cares
(26:45):
that even if they sweep you. I could see the
Patriots winning eight or nine games.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Listen, they were seven and a half DraftKings. They are
now up to eight and a half. So the Sharks,
it looks like we're all over the Patriots. So New
England was one of my overs. And I said the
other day on the air, I said, I think Vrabel
from girod Mayo is worth three points. I think Drake
May is worth another point based on sophomore season. And
(27:12):
I think it's reasonable assume one hundred and ninety million
in free agency and eight to nine draft picks is
worth one and a half to two points. So if
they're just five and a half points to six points better.
And again you're talking about between the draft and free agency,
like eight to nine new starters and a couple of
high end starters. You're talking about Drake May potentially with
(27:33):
a Travis Hunter. You're talking about the worst coach team
to probably one of the seven to eight to nine
best coach teams. That's five and a half to six points.
They were three and six in one possession games with
a rookie quarterback. If that's just six and three, you
don't have to go nine to zero. This is an
eight to nine win team. And again the Jets are
a bit lost. I agree with you, Miami's a mess.
(27:54):
So I think New England's in play.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I would say the other team would be speaking of
Harbaugh the Chargers. You know, last year, I just didn't
pull the trigger and he did exactly what he yes did.
They were the five seed. Well this year it's nine
and a half, and everyone always gets off the scent
with them. During like free agency, Jim is not going
to trade for DK Metcalf and give one hundred and
(28:18):
fifty million dollars. He didn't do it last year. He's
not gonna do it this year. He won't do it
next year. You know what he will do though, in
like the second round, all of a sudden, he will
draft his starting tight end for the next seven years
and in the third round find a defensive tackle that
everyone's going, this guy's not that sexy who will just
be a starter for him for a long time. Then
you watch the season and you just go, God, their
team is just physical and good. He has a really
(28:39):
talented quarterback. Why couldn't they win twelve games? I mean,
they're over under right now is nine and a half.
I think they are a lock. I mean, Jim Harbaugh
is now coach in the NFL five years and made
the playoffs and four of them. So I don't know
if they can overtake the Chiefs, but it wouldn't shock
me if it gets a little closer. And don't let
free agency fool you. He's never gonna play in swimming
(29:02):
that into the pool. They are never gonna do that.
But you know, you've talked about this huge advantage for Jim.
All these kids coming in the draft. He's recruited them all,
especially the good ones, so he's gonna know these guys.
It's gonna be a huge point of difference for him.
I would expect them to have a good draft. His
GM I think is pretty good. I mean, look at
last year, It's like, how did they pass on Malak Davers?
(29:22):
I don't know, they just got their starting tackle for
the next decade. So I think the Chargers they fooled
me is the wrong word. I just didn't have the
kahonas just because I was like, I don't know if
their roster is quite good enough, they are not gonna
have great ride receivers. He typically never does, and he
always wins. He won a national championship, he went to
a Super Bowl, like he's not exactly gonna have Jerry
(29:45):
Rice in his prime, and it's gonna work out just fine.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, speaking of college football, so I mean, and the
draft is obviously a convergence of pro and college football.
I love this whole and luck GM of Stanford, and
like now college football has an NFL field where teams
are paying players and there's a general manager. You know.
(30:09):
I got into this conversation the other day with somebody about,
you know, the NFL Draft and Dion Sanders, and Dion
looks like he is all in on Colorado, and he
looks like he is stepping back on you know, helicoptering
as a dad, which I understand on his sun should
or Sanders.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Are you surprised.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
That Dion Sanders appears to be all in on college
football and all in in the most unlikely place that
Dion Sanders, a Christian man, would land Boulder, Colorado, which
is you can smell the cannabis from Denver. It is
a quirky anti establishment. I mean, it's it's thank you
(31:00):
Gene Oregon, which I love, but it's I would have
never guessed that Dion Sanders would have picked Colorado, And
when he signed that extension, I thought, Jesus, he's really
all in on this thing. Are you surprised?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
A little? And I always give a guy a lot
of credit. And I don't have Dion's financials in front
of me, but I think it's safe to say he
did not need to go into college football for money.
Like he was already pretty well off and done pretty
well financially and one thing wants his children leave right
to go to the NFL. He easily could have been
like it's been a good run. Yeah, maybe I'll do
(31:36):
it for a cople more. Yes, this feels like Deon
Sanders more than likely is going to be coaching four
years to come, and eventually I expect him one day
to be in the SEC or some big program. Right.
John Lytz did the same thing. It's like John Lynch
really gonna be the GM nine years later. The guy's
all in. He's going through like transitional periods. He's like,
let's do it. It's like these guys love football. I
mean to not having been around coaches and these players
(31:58):
that get into coaching. You gotta be a football addict,
and I think people underestimate, especially Dion. I'll never forget.
I've told this story before. Bobby April, who is a
special teams coach in Atlanta. He's like, you know, everyone
got it wrong with Deon because at the time he's
in these music videos and the chains and kind of
just the way he carried himself. This guy sat in
(32:19):
the front of my meetings, no one practiced harder, and
like he was just a special guy to coach. He's
like I, no one I would rather coach than a
guy like Deon Sanders. And I think if you had
asked me at fifteen years old in the mid nineties
like Dion would have felt like a pain in the butt,
like a too. He was the opposite. I think as
(32:39):
a player, people loved coaching him. Here's the other thing
he's got going on now. His buddies are with him,
Warren Sapps's defensive line coach, Marshall Fawkes's running back coach.
I bet he's just pretty cool place to work. Plus,
here's the thing with Colorado, they kind of needed him
more than he needed them, and now they've paid him
a lot of money. Like and the other thing with
(33:00):
the transfer portal. If you're willing to cut checks, I
think obviously you're going to have advantages at Texas or
Ohio State, but at Colorado in his the other thing,
look a look at his conference? Why why can't he compete?
You know, Oklahoma State's kind of falling apart, and t
Boone Pickens is no longer around. Why couldn't he make serious?
Arizona State was just in the playoffs. Yon's got to
(33:22):
be thinking, if we can recruit pretty well the next
couple of years, why couldn't we win ten eleven games
and win this conference to get a bid? And he's
not wrong. And then eventually, if Florida or one of
those schools calls, I think he would eventually take it.
But I don't think he's just leaving for a quote
unquote like lateral job anymore. It would have to be
a cream of the crop gig like he's they're paying
(33:42):
him what basically ten eleven twelve million dollars a year
for the next five years.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, it's I've got to be I've got to be
upfront here. I always thought Dion was a little inauthentic.
I mean, I know he had a belief, you know,
religious conviction, but he was always a little showy for me.
The Tim McCarver baseball stuff.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
You know, that's what Bobby, That's what Bobby April used
to say. Don't let that fool you, because at his
core he loves When they were for his first year
during spring practice, they were tackling to the ground and
I went, you know where Deon gets mistaken by a
lot of people. This guy is an eighties nineties football guy.
This guy grew up around George Seaffert with those cowboy teams.
Even the Atlanta teams when he first got there weren't terrible.
(34:24):
Like this guy was used to a culture in football
that is not the culture now right. That's why when
that the story came out about Troy Taylor, who Andrew
luck has fired and Stanford fired, I was like, there's
not enough detail, like is this guy just an asshole
or is he is he legitimately crossing the line because
there football culture is not like a pretty place. You're
getting yelled at a lot a lot of swear worlds.
(34:46):
It's it's just an edgy environment offseason and in season,
and I think Deon's just Deon's very comfortable in football.
You know certain people you're comfortable behind the mike. Deon's
just comfortable around football players running football practice. Now he's
clearly you know. I was impressed Warren Sapp's hiring to
be the d line coach, and by the mid season
(35:07):
that I was gambling on Colorado a lot. I was like,
got their defensive line is really improved.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
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(35:39):
right now is in an interesting place. Baseball's on fire.
I mean the torpedo bats, I mean there's just it's great.
And I mean women's basketball. Caitlin Clark is a real
she's a real sensation. I mean the Jimmy Butler moved
to the Warriors, and Luca Lebroun is absolutely infused the league,
there's no question. And the College Football Playoff. I told
(36:01):
J Mack and I talked about this last this week,
and I said, when I got into this business, like
when football ended, you had like a month of it
was dead. And I'm like, well, now football has been
extended two weeks and they're going to add an eighteenth
game and they're going to give us another buy so
that will extend it two more weeks. And I'm like,
(36:21):
football now is Labor Day to March. First, you get
a week on vacation, you come back, it's free agency
and the tournament. And I really like what college football
is doing. I'm not a traditionalist, and I do think
the NIL bringing in general managers now is necessary. I
don't want, you know, I don't want Lincoln Riley and
Ryan Day being capologists, Like let's get somebody in the
(36:44):
building that knows what the hell they're doing.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
But I.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
You know, the only fear I have about football this
is weird. But you know, remember a few years ago
in the NFL really made a point of targeting women
and moms because you were having in certain states the
turnout level dropped precipitously with concussion fears, And I was
thinking about this the other day, John, I don't remember
a draft with less hyperbole this. People are saying, this
(37:14):
is as bad a draft as we've had. Like outside
a running back and maybe defensive tackle, there's just not
a ton of talent. And I do wonder if this
is the first draft and this now the NBA two
out of three drafts don't give us much. I mean,
Cooper Flag is a domestic product. This good is so rare.
You can't even name the last domestic product that was
(37:34):
looked this good. Zion was fantastic, but he didn't have
the dimensions and the dexterity and the overall game of
Cooper Flag. He was he was a torque machine. He
wasn't this. He wasn't close to this. His game didn't
look like this. Is that in college football. I'm wondering
if about every third or fourth draft this point forward,
because turnout levels of drop, because there's a fear of
(37:56):
concussions with kids. I wonder if we're going to become
the NFL. It's got a little NBA feel to it.
Last year, John, you had ten virtually unwatchable teams double
the number of teams that were non competitive by early December.
(38:16):
Do you think it's possible with lower turnouts and that
the game will start to be a little more NBA,
which there is eight great, eight okay, and twelve unwatchables.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
I do think the NFL drafts have always been like
you have some bad drafts, they don't happen as frequently,
I would say, as the NBA. But last year looks
like it has a chance to be like a historically
great quarterback drafts. This is pretty crazy. I mean, obviously
they had twelve guys in the top or six guys
in the top twelve, but three of them are already
pretty good. I would say that one concerning part in
(38:57):
football is Brady's big thing. It's never been easier to
play quarterback. And he's not wrong because you don't get
penalized throwing over the middle. They can't hit you. But
the quarterback play can be pretty bad. I mean, I
feel like guys like fifteen through thirty two are really
hit or miss and their backups. It's just it's and
I think a lot of this is the training in
(39:17):
college now with guys transferring the training in the pros,
you don't have as much I mean training camp, I feel,
and again, the salary cap has changed things. But I
remember growing up, a lot of teams went too deep
with starters. Yes right, their backup was like the burg
or whoever, and it was like that guy could be
a starter somewhere else. And that really isn't the case anymore.
(39:38):
It feels like a lot of teams like if their
starter gets hurt, they will lose every single week. And
so I think the importance on the quarterback is awesome
when it works, when you nail it, but if you
miss or that guy gets injured, the falloff is precipitous
and it's a problem. But I do think that if
(39:59):
you just look over the next couple of years, I
think the talent in college football feels pretty high now.
The difference, though, is, you know, I if I was
an offensive lineman and I went to Iowa or Wisconsin
or just some of these schools, like I was going
to get developed, and more likely I was going to
get drafted if I was a good player. Even if
I wasn't a first round pick, second third, fourth round,
I'd play in the NFL A long time. Well, now
(40:20):
if I'm starting in Iowa and like, god, this guy's
an all conference guy, Ohio State, Georgia and Texas call
you so you start moving around in your development, maybe
pain scheme. Good point, and I do wonder in football?
Good point, you know in the NFL. Like part of
the reason I saw Kyle Shanahan, He's like, I didn't
expect our backup tackle to get fifteen million dollars a year. Well,
(40:44):
I was texting with Andy. They love the guy because
they think, you know, the only reason he didn't start
is because what Hall of Fame tackle and that guy
has played before. They like what they saw and they
know he's a good guy, and they know he's been
coach well, same place, same coaching staff for four years,
so that that guy, you don't last that long. They
depend on you to basically be their swing tackle for
four straight years. If they don't think really highly of you, now,
(41:05):
do they overpay a little bit? We can debate that.
But they know exactly who's been coaching him in college.
It's like, well, he's been two different programs and three
different coordinators. It's a lot of movement now changing stuff,
which I think these the front offices are still trying
to get a feel for this, Yes, because it's it's
never quite been with quarterbacks. Is a little easier with
some of these other positions. Is their development? Do they
(41:28):
actually have room to grow in the pros? You know
that maybe they would have been maxed out before. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I mean take Will Howard. I liked him at Kansas
State and then at Ohio State. Did my perception change
and my expectations because I didn't like him as much
because I was like, well, they got better talent. You
have to be consistently good. Kyle McCord. At Ohio State,
I was like Ham and Eggar. Then I watched them
at Syracuse and I'm like, shit, that's a second round pick.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
That guy's good.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
So I'm wondering if scout you're doing that like just
Ohio State quarterbacks. I'm like Will Howard, I wanted more.
I saw him at Kansas State. I wanted more. I'm
disappointed he may not have changed at all. Kyle McCord.
I'm now on a high because I think he played
with far less talent and he put up huge numbers.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Well, we talked about Purty. Perty's a good example. After
his junior year at Iowa State when he was really
good and they were competing to be like a top
fifteen team. You don't think teams, I mean, Oregon's done
this now like three years in a row. They you know,
Dylan Gabriel, bo Nicks. Teams like that would have called
Brock perty and who knows, maybe Brock Purty then goes
to Oregon. He's playing on national television games and if
(42:35):
he's good, instead of going the last pick in the
seventh round, maybe Purdy goes in the fourth or the
third round. Yeah. So look at these transfer quarterbacks besides
JJ McCarthy. Last year, all transfer guys Drake may didn't.
But remember mac Brown came out going into his junior year,
was like he's offered five million dollars. Luckily he's loyal
to us, and it was pretty clear like the three
(42:56):
teams offering him that much money. This year, all the
quarterbacks are transferred. Cam Ward, this is third school Chador,
Kyle McCord. You know, it's like camp Ward is a
great example. He was going to the East West Shrine
game when he decided to commit to Miami. He probably
would have gone probably third or fourth round last year.
(43:16):
Now he's he's been I mean the Titans from what
I've heard, I was in Nashville month ago, pretty good source.
They've been dead set on him for like a month.
This guy's going the number one pick all because he transferred.
If I were these quarterbacks, it's a no brainer. If
you get the opportunity to jump up to a top
twenty team, and even if you're it is not just
(43:37):
Washington State. What if you're at like Minnesota or some
of these programs, and you can just take that next step.
So that's where in the conference the top dogs can
just they're just feeder systems. All these programs beside the
top fifteen twenty programs are essentially now the Billy ban
Oakland A's They're a minor league program that I'm eventually
going to take your your best players.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, the the NIL. One of the things I love
about sports is innovation because it makes me think, you know,
I get bored of just watching game after game after game,
Like I like trades, I like acquisitions, I love free
agency period and the NIL. It can be tricky because
there's so much mobility and movement among coaches and players.
(44:19):
Like in the NFL, the pension is so good for
a coach. I mean, Dante Scarnekia could have bounced around
and made more money. He's like, I'm going to stay here.
Pension's going to be great. I'm going to make twenty
thousand dollars a month pension once I leave this sport.
Why bounce around, Ernie Adams? Why bounce around? But in
college you don't get that pension. So coaches are just
(44:39):
constantly hopscotching, programmed to program to prom and they all
seemingly all want to be either coordinators or head coaches.
And in the NFL, I find there are some position
coaches that make like between eight hundred thousand and a
million forward.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
It's like pays a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
And the pensions herm Edwers told me is coaching pensions
are better than his player pensions. And so there's so
much more ability at the college level for coaches. And
now the players are moving, so the chances, I mean
bo Knicks didn't have like five coordinators.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah a lot. I actually met a guy that through
the podcast in Arizona that I played golf with. His
son was a big Division I football recruit over the
last couple of years, and he was one of those
guys that showed up at school early, you know, like
right after the winner, you know, went the start of
the technically the winter semester. Within two days of him
(45:32):
enrolling early, his coach takes another job, and forever the
media used to freak how unfair it is, how un
fair it is that kid immediately had the opportunity to
follow his coach or to go ten other places that
had been recruiting him. His phone was blowing up. Now
he chose to stay because he said it was a
lot going on for an eighteen year old. But like
(45:53):
that opportunity that you can move when stuff like that
happens to me has like neutralized the anger or you know,
the Maryland coach. Everyone's up in arms. It's like, guys,
the players can all leave now too, So it's like
everyone is under the same umbrella of And the difference
is if I steal a coach, typically I have to
pay a buyout. These the players can just leave it
(46:15):
free will. But it's like, I mean, who knows some
of these deals that are getting done. So I'm with you.
I think the nil which is kind of stupid. I
heard deonce say this, He's like, how many besides like
Shador Sanders. I turn on television, I don't see anyone
in commercials. It's just pay to play, which is fine,
which is eventually going to change and go to the
revenue sharing be a salary cap. And that's where to me,
(46:38):
the general managers, you know, the Lombardes and the Jim
Naggies and these guys, the GM jobs in college football
are paying. It's not like they're paying one hundred thousand.
Some of them are paying seven figures. These guys are
making or even if you're making seven hundred and fifty
eight hundred thousand dollars, if you're at an SEC school,
google how much the homes are in those areas you
are you're one of the highest paid W two employees
in the area.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah, it's yeah, there's I look at football today and
for the first time in my life, I feel that
college football has been pushed and prodded, but it is
starting to now look closer to the NFL. And to me,
that is a great thing because I've always said there's
(47:22):
one big problem with college football. We have a big
game problem. I mean, Labor Day weekend, you get one
or two big games NFL every one o'clock window. That's
the boring window. The best games are Sunday night Fox
and CBS late afternoon and Monday night and Thursday night
now Amazon biyas big games. The one o'clock window has
at least two big time games every week. I mean,
(47:45):
there's only like fourteen games in the NFL a weekend
seven to eight field big. College football's got sixty games
and four field big. And I think these super conferences
are creating I mean, I mean, you look at USC
schedule this year, five six games, It's like, oh, you
have to watch those. Those are really exciting games. I
like the pivot, I mean, and a lot of it's
(48:07):
Fox and the ESPN said, guys, we're getting rid of
the PAC twelve. We're gonna make these two super conferences.
We're gonna even this expansion to fourteen games in the
playoffs from twelve. This is all about networks. I have
no problem with it. We gave college football free license
forever to do what they want, and they avoided big
(48:28):
games and people the conferences couldn't face the same number
of conference opponents. It was uneven and finally the network
stepped in and said, all right, we're gonna take charge,
and I like it. Last year there were more big
games than ever before.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Totally, and I think I'm pretty confident that I don't
know when this is gonna happen, but it does feel
inevitable right that all the conferences, especially if we go
to like an AFC, NFC SEC Big ten where it's
headed you play the same number of conference games nine
and then you do some sort of rotating with those
extra three. Maybe you get your allowed one non power
(49:04):
for a Fresno State San Diego State type, but no
more UC Davis playing USC like those days half to end.
You're not allowed to play a Division one double a team.
So I still think we can make a couple more
steps because I looked at because I saw Belichick, Mark Andrews,
not Mark Andrews, but David Andrews's former center talked to
(49:24):
the team. So I google their schedule. I mean, they
got some games on that schedule. It's like, this is
it's not his fault. I mean he didn't say, but
some of these teams still, I mean there are weeks
you know, Saban fought this forever. It's like no one
wants to watch you play Mercer and luckily in the NFL.
You know, even if the Eagles are playing the Titans
on a given week, it could end up being a
(49:45):
decent game, and every team has pros, like there are
such a stark difference when Texas is playing McNee state.
It's like you cannot get mad at all the fraternities
for not showing up to that game. He's fifty to
nothing at halftime. So I think we just keep moving
moving forward, especially now you can lose games like there.
(50:05):
As we expand the playoffs go to fourteen teams or whatever,
there is inevitably going to be a three lost team
getting it. I mean there almost was this year.
Speaker 2 (50:12):
Ohio State was a twenty point favorite and lost at
home to a bad Michigan team and won the Natty.
So yeah, I think, yeah, I think again. It's it's
I never like college football. It really mattered when you lost.
And I watched Kansas City win a Super Bowl two
years ago and play poorly in December, like when you know,
(50:35):
they always say idealism and cynicism kill progress, and they
were just college football and baseball fans. Too many purists
and traditionalists for me, like, let's just make it better,
let's have more big games. Let's not crush a season
because you lose in October for the second time. Like
if you reel off seven straight wins, get you in
the playoff, like this idea of and you know, and
(50:57):
there's some old things I like, are things in sports
that I miss the Rose Bowl, like when it really mattered.
But how many times could I watched you know, Washington
and Iowa. Like, let's at some point and I think
what happens, John, And I've over the course of my.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Life, I've learned this.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Everybody, certain people seek comfort in tradition, totally get it,
and not everybody grows. At the same time, it took
a lot of Americans to get comfortable with gay marriage.
It took a lot of people. Many still aren't comfortable
with legal cannabis. And there's a lot of sports fans
like they are just kicking and screaming. Here's all I
know about college football. Ohio State can lose as a
(51:38):
twenty point favorite and still get in. It's like, of
course they should get in. Of course they're one of
the twelve best teams. And Ohio State's opening with Texas.
Texas is opening with Ohio State. It doesn't matter who loses.
Ohio State lost to Oregon, it doesn't matter in the end.
If it's a competitive game, they'll both get into the playoff.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
I mean, I'm open minded like you, but there are
parts like I do think watching the NCAA Tournament, it
was weird seeing Oregon play Arizona and going, this is
a Big Ten versus Big twelve matchup. That was a
little bizarre in Sweet sixteen, But like, should Washington State
be in a power for conference? And I appreciate how
hard they try and everything, they should probably play Boise
(52:22):
State Forresne State in San Diego State, that feels right.
So it's like you could argue you could even trim
the fat with some of the teams in the Big Ten, right,
I mean some of these programs like the Yeah, I
mean Maryland. I mean you see that coach, He's like,
I'm out for Villanova, you know. So it's just like
I I think it's ultimately going to happen an AFC
(52:44):
NFC version of college football. And it's clear words, head,
it's the SEC and the Big Ten. We know Notre
Dame will they'll gravitate to or Clemson in Florida State,
Miami will gravitate too. In North Carolina. Maybe you take
Stamford and some of the academic schools with you to
the northern one, and that's what's gonna happen. And then
you only play each other because why the other thing
(53:05):
is now, with the amount of money that's on the line,
why would I pay UC Davis or Montana to come
in for one and a half million dollars? Why wouldn't
we Just the NFL would never do that. They just
pull their money and they keep it to spread it
with their partners' So why the SEC gets so angry.
They're making so much money and they push back, we
should get more people into the playoffs. And I don't
(53:25):
even think they're necessarily wrong, but it's like, how about
we all get under the same umbrella. Yeah, and then
those teams all have the opportunity to go. But like
the NFL, everyone's playing everybody they don't like randomly. The
Patriots don't get to schedule the UFL the Birmingham Bombers
right right, because they got the bills coming up next week.
And that to me is the next step, which it
(53:48):
feels closer to, like ten years away than two years away.
But it does feel inevitable at this point in time,
right with the amount of money and with how much
they're gonna have to pay these players, because obviously the
quarterbacks make a lot of money, but you and I
hear stories about how much some of these other guys
are making. It's the numbers aren't going to go down,
They're only going to rise. So let's let's keep all
(54:09):
a pool, all of our money like the NFL, or
like the NBA, and just keep everyone in the same pool.
And it sucks, but Washington States and the Fresno States
and the you're kind of just shit out of luck.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
John Middlikoff is always buddy. Thanks appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Thanks going the volume.
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Colin Cowherd
Jason McIntyre
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