December 22, 2022 • 45 mins
How accessible is the county of Wiltshire for disabled people?
Theo converses with Mary Reed, CEO at Wiltshire Centre For Independent Living, about the challenges of being disabled in a rural county like Cornwall or Wiltshire. -- Discover Voices (c) 2022, a production by registered charity, disAbility Cornwall & Isles of Scilly.
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(00:08):
Very good.
Hello.
So it's
Theo Blackmore here again from Disability
Cornwall of the Isles of Scilly.
And I'm talking to.
Mary Reed from Wiltshire Center
for Independent Living in Wiltshire.
Brilliant.
Whereabouts in Wiltshire are you?
So we're
based right in the very center
in Devizes.
And the reason
(00:29):
why that we cover the whole of Wiltshire
and the reason we're there
is because it's a bit of a
well as you know,
a bit of a county to navigate.
And so like Cornwall.
So we just try to be as central
as we could really.
You know, it's amazing.
I had a quick
look on the map
before we
having this conversation of Wiltshire.
(00:49):
You know, you've got some well,
you've got the motorway across the top
and you've
probably got the
A30 across the bottom and or the A308?
A303! ...
Road to the Sun.
And then you've got in the middle of it,
you really got Stonehenge
and you got cities
kind of in it and around it.
So it is quite a diverse county, I think.
Well the biggest pain about
(01:12):
Wiltshire,
if you're trying to do anything,
is it's got a massive firing range
in the middle of it,
which is Salisbury Plain.
So a massive
wilderness really, which is lovely.
But what it means is that
often people in the South
look to Southampton
(01:32):
and people in the north
look to either Bath, Swindon, Oxford,
and so it's really difficult
to pull people together
as a whole.
And you know, it's been funny.
We've tried all sorts of things,
but people never cross the plain
to come to an event.
Well, and it's
because they might get shot
(01:52):
at It's is
it is actually people
that with live ammunition.
Oh gosh yes.
I live on the edge of the plain.
And sometimes it's
like being in a war zone.
You can hear the ‘ratatatta’,
the machine guns and heavy artillery
and all sorts of things.
Yeah, it's proper war stuff here.
Is that so?
That must be really quite intense at them
because they're bringing people
over from Ukraine and training them.
(02:13):
Is are they training them there?
Maybe that would explain it.
Yeah. The houses being shaking.
Oh yeah, not today, but the other way.
It was like,
honestly, I kept going to the door, kept
thinking someone was
knocking at the door. So.
Yeah, yeah.
And you've also got Stonehenge.
You've got Stonehenge in Wiltshire.
Yeah. They havn’t blown that up!
Yeah.
We've got Stonehenge
(02:34):
and we've got Avebury as well,
which is much better than Stonehenge
because it's bigger
and you get in the middle of it
and walk around it
and there's a pub in the middle of it
as well. So.
So for people who don't know,
because I remember,
because I went to university in Redding
and a friend of mine went down there
and it's basically a stone circle
around a village, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah.
Amazing. Yeah, it's really good.
(02:55):
It's I always say,
because people always
want to get to Stonehenge like that.
It's a little bit of an anti-climax,
always going to Avebury!
Pretty good. Thing.
So, you know, life in Wiltshire
sounds pretty fabulous,
but it's also probably very similar
to Cornwall in lots of ways.
And the allowed
the ways of getting from A to
B are little tiny rural country lanes
(03:18):
with poor infrastructure,
bad public transport.
I don't suppose you've got many trains
going through Wiltshire.
Are trains are shocking.
So we, I mean parts of Wiltshire
you got direct line to London
and stuff like that,
but local trains are non-existent.
You couldn't
so you have to be, especially as a
disabled person,
(03:39):
you have to be a car driver
or have access to a vehicle.
The taxis are
awful as well,
so we have to arrange events around
certain times of day
because of school runs.
You won't get an accessible taxi
until about between ten and two.
(03:59):
You can get one,
but otherwise it's really difficult.
I can remember once we had Clenton
Farquharson [MBE] coming down
the chair of Think Local Act Personal
and he's a wheelchair user
and he he came to Chippenham.
We were like,
you sure are you going to be okay
to get to your hotel?
He's like, He comes from Birmingham.
(04:20):
He's like, Yeah, yeah, I'll be fine.
I'll be fine.
Oh, gosh, it was so embarrassing.
He
we had no means of getting him
from the train station
three miles up the road
because we hadn't booked a taxi
three days in advance.
And they kept saying to him,
Could you not just get out of your chair
for a little while and get into a taxi?
(04:40):
And so he was just aghast
because coming from Birmingham,
you just couldn't believe that.
You couldn't just easily get
from one place to another.
You know, it's amazing.
I forgotten about the school run,
so I tried to book a taxi a while ago.
In fact, today I couldn't at 3:00
or anywhere near that
because and that's the exact time
(05:00):
that I needed it, of course.
Yes. Yeah.
It's because there's a limit to vehicles,
isn't it, in the county.
And taxi drivers as well.
Yeah.
And how,
how's the bus services and all of that.
Do you have accessible busses there.
We do
and we've just done
some of really interesting.
So part of the stuff
we do
is our user engagement service,
which is funded by Wiltshire Council and
(05:24):
what was the CCG and clinical
commissioning group,
which is now the Integrated Care Board.
I think I have that right
where it might be the
integrated care system
and we
got some extra
funding from Transport Wiltshire,
the bus companies in Wiltshire,
to talk about how we could highlight
(05:47):
just how the bus drivers needed to work
with disabled passengers.
And we did loads of really cool stuff
for the team headed up by
someone known as ‘Young Mary’ at work.
So that makes me old Mary.
I think it's a really good
like focus groups on the bus
(06:08):
like secret shopper
loads of like tik-tok videos
about getting on
enough busses in Wiltshire
and they're training the bus drivers
now disability equality
and using all that they found
and the transport
really, really willing to do
things differently
and wants to do things differently.
And they gave us money
(06:29):
to do that project.
So there's willingness.
It's there accessible, it's just,
it's just promoting it really.
Yeah I well that's, that's good.
I should explain to everybody
that you can be a bit husky
maybe every now and again
and you've got a bit of a cough
because you're just surviving
your second round of COVID. Yes.
(06:51):
So, well. Well done for surviving.
And thank you for being here,
even though you'll probably be in bed
probably.
Feeling much better today
because my grandmother
always used to say.
But but
the it's just affecting my voice.
It's really annoying
because I love talking.
It's a terrible thing.
So this isn't probably the right place
to bring this up,
but I will bring it up anyway.
(07:12):
One of the things I like
reading his famous last words.
Yeah,
and as a playwright,
Norwegian playwright or Nordic
playwright called Ibsen.
Yeah, it is very poorly.
It is in bed and flat out it is his.
And yet a carer there looking after him,
feeding him and watering him
and all of that.
And somebody came and knocked
at the door and they said,
How is Mr.
Ibsen today.
The carer said
(07:33):
well I think he's,
I think he's doing a little bit
better at Ibsen.
Sat up in bed
and said on the contrary, then died!!
Not as good as the Spike Milligan
where he had on his
tombstone, I told you I was ill!
But the public transport thing,
so the busses thing.
So the thing about
what happens in Cornwall
is that they put,
they put the bus timetable up
(07:54):
and they have a limited number
of accessible busses, but
you don't really know which one is which.
And so the bus arrives
and it might be accessible
and then it goes in.
If it is accessible,
then it could take you from my village,
for example, to the town.
And then to get back again,
I have to wait for an accessible bus.
And again,
you can't tell from the timetable,
so one may show up at the time it says,
(08:14):
but also it might not.
So then you've got to wait
another hour for the next one.
And I think as well,
we're trying to get the drivers
more confident to gently and strongly
challenge people
being in the wheelchair spaces.
And I think that's part of the work
we be doing with this co-production
project is like it's okay to say
(08:35):
to people who are sitting that
you need to move
because woman in a wheelchair
wants to get on
because often
somebody in a wheelchair
then has to deal with that themselves
and it makes things
very uncomfortable for them.
Whereas if the bus driver
just took control and said,
actually this space is allocated,
I think that would make things
(08:55):
a lot easier for people
because in the past we've had it
where somebody has been waiting
and the drivers just driven past
because there's somebody who's been
sat in the space
with a buggy or, you know,
but it doesn't have to create conflict,
but it just needs
what we're all about
with that bus project and with loads.
What we do is just raising awareness
and saying,
(09:15):
you know, it's just about
being more thoughtful.
So I remember there was that
thing last year, wasn't it?
Was it last year or the year before even?
I don't know.
But about people with prams taken up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Accessible spaces or busses.
You don't want to pit groups
against each other
like young mums against disabled people.
Yeah.
Because that's what,
(09:36):
that's what people love
and that's really unhelpful.
But sometimes it is just explaining
or finding ways to,
to explain the situation to people
so that they understand
rather than creating conflict.
And so the consequence of that all
a bit as well is that disabled
people need to have
either their access to a car
or their, their own car,
(09:57):
but ways of getting around,
they need to make their own ways
of getting around,
otherwise they never get to get there
in terms of services.
So what I'm thinking is
lots of disabled people's organizations
provide specific services and
for example, in relation to
personal assistant services.
So in Cornwall
we have a PA [Personal Assistant] bank
through Disability Cornwall,
so that links up
(10:18):
if a disabled person lives in Bude
up in the north of the county,
then there's carers up there
after they will link them with them
rather than with people in 100 miles
way down here
and whatever get there on time.
I mean,
do you have ways of getting around that?
Well,
what we're trying to encourage is
and we're working with the council on
this is more micro-enterprises.
(10:39):
So we have Abby, PA Development Worker.
She’s brilliant.
She uses PAs’ herself
and she goes and chats to
parents at the school gate, to local,
local groups and says,
Oh, have you thought about being a P.A.
and it's difficult, you know,
you don't have to see a carer in a tabard
(11:00):
and see it's your life's work.
But actually this could really fit in
with your life,
you know, could fit in
with your school, run,
or it could fit in
with your other responsibilities.
And what we're finding, as well as
what we're trying to do is group work.
So pull budgets, we're not there yet.
It's really complicated to do this
in terms of the funding,
but because what is it?
(11:22):
Someone won't travel
all the way out to a village
for one hour's work,
but it says within three miles
they can get like 5 hours
work in that day.
That's what I'm going to.
And we've even because at the moment,
as I expect in Cornwall,
they're really keen
to find
innovative ways to help people
get home out of hospital.
(11:42):
And we said, Well,
would you provide a grant
to pay for people
to get their cars back on the road?
Because a lot of the people
we're talking to in towns, say Salisbury,
the place around Salisbury,
which is like a city,
we can get those appeals in the city,
but there's loads of little villages
dotted around
that they can't travel to because
(12:05):
because of the cost of living,
they've had to take the car off the road
so they've no insurance or tax.
And we said,
or I MOT even, as we said, if we
if you could give them a grant
to make that car roadworthy again
and then that would kickstart them
to get in the job
and being able to travel out to that job.
So I will say we're trying
all sorts of things
(12:26):
to get
to get that support in the villages
because to be fair, a PA or a carer
and a minimum wage in a dodgy car,
they're not shows, you know,
very safe to drive
in, isn’t
going to want to be driving around
these lanes at 10:00 at night, you know,
doing the job.
It's because it's
(12:47):
it's not it's not very attractive
job really,
especially when they could be in a
residential home and be Yeah.
You know, everything that but equally
we're trying to Abby and her PA Danny
did a lovely video around what their
relationship was like
(13:08):
and it was brilliant and it just was so,
so different
from the usual plastic apron,
tabard type PA, you know, that
sort of Danny’s part of her family
and so we're trying to sell
care in a completely different way
to that, to what people perceive it,
(13:29):
because I do believe
that COVID has put people off care work
because they think,
hang on a minute, I'm paying paid
minimum wage
and I'm expected
to put my life on the line.
No, thank you. You know.
Yeah, No, that's amazing.
I hadn't thought of that.
The whole COVID thing.
I mean, did it
how did it hit you as an organization?
I mean, we basically closed
(13:50):
I mean, loads of across
the country closed their doors.
In fact, most
DPOs’ still are not open.
I think, you know,
they found new ways of working
so that the doors are closed
and some of them have stopped renting.
The building's full stop.
And so that means that
they don't have that
great big overhead cost
because they found that during COVID
they could operate in this way
(14:10):
that we're doing now.
So working from home
basically through the through the laptop.
We've always kind of done a bit of hybrid
because we're such a huge geography here.
So we've always done
lots of telephone support, lots of
we haven't always
just relied on home visits.
And in the early days
we used to try and get people together
for peer support
(14:30):
and they just weren't interested, right?
You they were like,
anything I've got going with the
is a benefit. Yeah, nothing else.
And actually I'd rather be with me
family and friends, but just support me.
Well here
so we were you we go
you know we
we tend to support people
to keep their own networks
as opposed to try and create new networks
for them to begin to.
(14:51):
Yeah, we kept our office space because
our values are really important to us.
And as
and our little tribe
is really important to us.
So we like coming together.
It's more for the staff
than for people coming externally and
because I think you lose
a lot by being at home all the time.
I think you lose a lot.
So one of the things
that I'm interested in
(15:12):
is about organizational knowledge.
So how do organizations work and operate
and what are all the different jobs
in that organization
and who is doing what?
And then so
if somebody phones in and says
can I do this,
then you can either answer it or,
you know, the person will answer it.
So yeah,
that kind of organizational understanding
is something that's very,
very important, I think.
So organizations
(15:32):
that lose their businesses
and disperse their staff in that way
might find that more.
And it makes it more difficult
to carry the organization forward.
And so when you recruit people, you know,
always remember going into new jobs
that they say, Oh,
this is how we do it around here.
We do that around here.
This is how that works.
Yeah, you don’t
get that
if you're working at home do you.
So I just think there's a disconnect
(15:54):
when you work from home all the time.
We didn't even get to hybrid working,
but we appreciate that.
But I work from home two days a week
because otherwise I wouldn't
get picked up because I'm
very easily distracted.
Yeah, but, but I think it's really the,
the culture of our organisation
was really important to us
(16:14):
and we have found that difficult
as we have expanded.
We had a bit of a weird experience
in Cambridge
and that we expanded quite rapidly
and we doubled our staff
because we took on new projects
which was really difficult to navigate
and I think we're still feeling
the aftereffects like that,
that as an organization,
still trying to bring
new members of staff on board
(16:35):
and an understanding of who we are
as a organisation.
I mean, loads of organizations
expanded temporarily
because they took on local contracts
to help
get through COVID,
to help disabled people with stuff
like food and medicines.
There's all sorts of different things
and knows that disabled people's
organizations changed
from being kind of reactive,
(16:55):
shall we say, so
with the telephone helpline.
So I would phone into my local DPO
and ask for help and assistance.
And Les
did the opposite
and started
calling out during COVID
to give people social contact
because other people are isolated
and living on their own,
like little remote hamlets
down here in Cornwall.
We were phoning them
and saying, We've got everything
you need, this, that and the other.
(17:16):
And then how are you today
and how is your,
you know, just doing a bit of social.
Yeah, we did.
We, we find everyone on DP lists
and we launched a community
Connect service
just before the community closed down.
So that was quite tricky.
Let's just say.
But it's gone from strength
to strength now.
(17:37):
And that's it's more about how we support
people to use their own strengths
and strengths of that community.
So rather than befriending or us
doing onto them, it's about how we grow
their resourcefulness, their resilience
and their self-belief
and get them the right resources around
them so that they live well
(18:00):
and that that works really well for us
because I honestly believe in Wiltshire.
I mean, I'm Wiltshire born and bred
and I really believe that
we're a brilliant community here
and that communities
want to be as inclusive as they can.
Sometimes they don't advertise it
(18:22):
because they worry about getting told of
risk assessments and safeguarding.
And so they do,
you know,
it can be a bit like Cornwall,
a bit of a lawless county.
And I love that,
you know,
I think if we don't risk stuff,
nothing ever develops.
Nothing ever changes.
So I love a bit naughtiness
with the stuff we do.
(18:43):
We try and take risks.
You know,
one of our main lines
at Wiltshire Centre for Independant
Living is
still is
don't ask for permission
first, ask for forgiveness later.
And and it just works for us.
Because if you wait for what:
A) why would you wait for the powers
that be?
And because who are they
to tell us what to do?
B) they have to go through
so many committees,
(19:03):
nothing ever gets done anyway.
But I think with us we run the Make
Someone Welcome campaign
and all that is is saying
it's just brilliant to
be inclusive of everybody
in your community,
not just disabled people, everybody.
And being inclusive can
mean can be as simple
as saying hello
(19:23):
to someone at the bus stop.
It doesn't have to be
a big grand gesture
of volunteering
or befriending or anything like that.
And it works better when you connect
with someone as an equal
as opposed to helping them or,
oh, you poor person with all your needs
I'm going to do on to you.
You know,
it was better for both sides
(19:44):
if you meet the equals.
And when we started that campaign
quite a few years ago,
we we developed a training package
and I can remember training package
on how to be inclusive. And I remember
doing that training package
and being really embarrassed
because actually
nobody needed to be trained
on being inclusive...
they got it, everyone was doing it.
(20:06):
They just weren't making a song and dance
about it.
You know,
I don't know very much about Wiltshire,
but I guess in the center of it
you don't get much through of people.
I mean, because
like what happens in Cornwall is,
you know,
the negative thing
that people say about Cornwall
is they know
we're like a Christmas stocking.
They say the nuts
always sink to the bottom.
(20:27):
Okay, people
get to the end of Cornwall
and then don't really move
for generations, you know,
And there are people
who've been down here and don't
go very far from down here
because there's not
there's no through road
or no through way.
And I suppose in the center of Wiltshire
there'll be similar
sort of places
where they're small villages with,
you know,
kind of static populations
(20:48):
who really do know each other.
Know everybody for each other.
Yeah, yeah.
We've had a bit of an influx of,
you know,
I can remember
the yuppies coming and things like that
and because we've got
train link to London.
But yeah,
communities are pretty solid
and you know, workingmen's associations
and stuff like that, it's,
(21:08):
there's, there's a lot of love
and care within the villages
I think can sometimes be overlooked.
Yeah.
And people really do
look out for each other.
I mean down here
in my local village,
everybody knows everyone,
but that works both ways.
And so it means that everybody
is looking out for everybody else
all the time.
Yeah, Yeah.
Can be a bit annoying
if you're a teenager.
(21:29):
Everything's annoying
when you're a teenager.
Well
when you are trying to do naughty things
and there's a hundred
people who know you are where you live!
But kind of the the,
the sort of the whole,
you know, the sum of all of those things.
If you haven't got great railway links,
your busses can be a bit intermittent.
They probably come along once every hour
and you don't have a car.
(21:50):
And in fact
right now with this snowy weather,
tidy lanes don't get gritted.
You know,
there can be situations
where people get really quite
isolated out of. Yeah.
So what happens here in a rural area.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
I mean
and I think that's up to us just to,
just to try
and make those local connections
(22:10):
because they're a lot more sustainable
than trying
to get in big services in to deliver.
Yeah, you get lost in big services,
but there's local
connections where you can see it
a lot more sustainable and that that done
because
there's a relationship between people,
whereas a service there's not that often
(22:33):
that there might not be
that relationship.
So a lot of the stuff
we do, it's my thing,
a lot of the stuff we do is relational,
all about relationships,
because if you care for somebody,
then you'll do something for them.
And we would talk.
We talking a lot
about community response,
and I'm very nervous about
(22:54):
there's a lot with the NHS plans
and changes around,
Oh well, the community will do it.
But what they don't understand is
the community is a resource to exploit,
you know,
and a community
can't be in crisis
response mode all the time.
So yes, the community
really galvanize itself on COVID,
(23:15):
but that's because we had a pandemic.
People went back to live their lives, but
also communities work
when people know each other.
So you can't try and
scale up everything that
happened in COVID
because a lot of it was street to street
neighbour to neighbour.
And that's what you want to,
(23:36):
you know, nourish and let grow slowly.
But they kind of always want to scale up
and turn into something
and then turn it almost into a service.
Yeah.
And a lot of the services
now are disappearing
or being cut,
you know, with all
that ten years of austerity
or whatever it was.
And then
and now we're in a situation
where it's going to
looks like it's going to be carrying on.
(23:57):
The local authorities in
many ways are getting well,
they're getting less funding
than they ever did get.
And so local authorities
know that there are services
and they know that
there are needs out there.
And so they kind of rely
a bit more on us
as the voluntary sector organizations
and I think think
that we will pick things up
if things really do fall through the net
or pick people up
if they fall through the that area.
(24:19):
Yeah, I know. And it
I don't know about you,
but we have to sort of
the way that talking to the VCSE.
Yeah.
Is like we're
we're one of the statutory partner
and we're sort of
I've shied away from some of that
because I think
I love working
for Disabled people's organization.
(24:40):
I feel
we were sort of
forged in the civil rights movement
and we are quite radical,
different organizations
that are prepared to push boundaries.
And I think it'd be really sad
if we just become part of the system.
You know, that's interesting.
So I've always said that
disabled people's
organizations are different
(25:00):
sector almost.
Yeah,
you lot people say that you're
just a subsector
of the voluntary community sector,
but we have our own thing as well.
So that's one thing is
that we're kind of controlled
and led by disabled people.
So as disabled people,
I think we're used to finding the gaps
and finding the way through the world.
And so our organizations
kind of do similar.
(25:21):
So that whole thing
that you were saying earlier
about the wild, Wild West, you know,
we're kind of used to doing that.
You have to take a bit of
a risk, otherwise nothing ever gets done.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm being massively flexible and a bit
bit naughty and quick and quick as well.
Yeah. Yes.
Somebody was saying to me about the,
the software
engineers in Silicon Valley, they,
(25:44):
they will put something it's practice
and come up with the idea
on the Sunday night,
put it into practice on Monday
it breaks on the Tuesday.
They fiddle around with it
and they have it back up at work
it on the Wednesday.
You imagine a local authority.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to change
how direct payments are delivered, right?
We've got to put it
to practice on the Monday
(26:05):
since we left them with.
No you know, local authority.
Yeah. They moved very slowly.
The committee by committee isn't it.
Yeah.
But I'm so going
with the Silicon Valley thing.
That's what I want to be.
That's what
I want
the organization to be like is quick.
You know, we learn from our mistakes.
Yeah.
And so do you see a difference
between I mean,
you must have contacts
(26:26):
with DPOs in urban areas.
So in places like London
or other cities, Bristol,
I suppose, would be the nearer one. I
we don't have a lot.
We do. We do.
We do some joint
visiting around direct payments.
I, I just
there's a little bit of envy going on
(26:46):
how quickly they can
mobilize disabled people
to rally around things.
Yeah, because we struggle.
I don't know if you find that.
It's just everyone
is really difficult to like.
We couldn't man
the barricades very easily in
Wiltshire firstly.
See we’d have to find somewhere
pretty central to put barricades up
(27:06):
and there'd be loads of arguments
about that. And,
and
so I can remember when it was was it
the Independent Living Fund?
Can you remember the Independent
Living Fund.
And they got rid of that. Yeah.
And we tried really hard
to get people together as individuals.
They were really cross and sad
(27:27):
that they were losing their ILF,
but we could not mobilize them
into a force that.
So we're looking we're doing it now
more and more,
but we're doing it through Facebook
and we're using social media
a lot more to
to do what we can't
do sort of in physical person.
(27:47):
And so that kind of
leads onto the next question is, is
which is like climbing
disabled people's organizations,
Do you think we are you know,
you mentioned
that we grew out of the civil
rights struggle
and we've evolved
into being what we are today.
Do you think the future for DPOs’
is that similar to what we are today?
So I think personally that we'll get lots
to attract a younger generation
to get on board.
(28:08):
In many ways,
they are much more tech savvy
than old people like me,
and they will
operate them in different ways.
So they'll DPOs will change and evolve,
I think can fill up
more of a virtual space.
So when you get that mobilization,
it might be easier to mobilize
disabled people
through that virtual space
rather than actually get them
to a specific place in time
(28:28):
on the Tuesday afternoon.
Yeah,
I think we're all
so we're just about start this.
We're really excited.
We've been trying to get funding to do
young people's co-production
for years and years and years
and we've got it
and we're going to be
starting that next year
and we're looking at things even like
having forums on Minecraft,
(28:51):
you know, Minecraft.
I shoot people game. Is it?
No, it's lovely.
Minecraft.
You build things, it's
like Lego, but online and, and like
kids love, it
is really creative.
So we're looking almost
to hold co-production groups
on, on things like that.
(29:11):
And
you know,
like having the focus groups on busses
so actually
taking activities
to people where they are
as opposed to expecting people
to come into a church
or with a cup of tea.
The biscuit
I think we have to make especially,
you know,
necessity is the mother of invention, is
that you can't do that in Cornwall,
(29:32):
you can't do in Wiltshire,
You can't just say, Right,
we've got to meet here on Tuesday
and it to be really easy.
Yeah, yeah.
You know,
but I don't even necessarily
think it's that easy
in other places either
because I remember I was in London,
went up to London,
this is a couple of years ago
now, and we stayed in a hotel
in the east end of London for a meeting.
And so my wife went out
to go and find out she's not, you know,
(29:54):
I use an entrance gates
and she's ambulant.
So she just went off to go find somebody
for us to have our dinner.
And she went to all these places
full of hipster
youngsters, all on their laptop
and then having a lovely time...
and reading the papers
and chatting and gossiping.
We couldn't get into any one of them.
Really. Yeah.
And so we ended up going
ended up getting a
delivery to the hotel
(30:15):
because we were in the hotel.
So that was.
Yeah,
but I
certainly think that actually London
might not be as easy
as I thought it would be.
Yeah, I think, I mean I think,
I think a while ago we decided,
although I really like linking
with national organizations
like Social Care Futures
and Think Local Act Personal,
and Disability Rights UK, where
(30:36):
I've sort of been linked with yourself
and things like that,
I think that's really useful
for my understanding.
But we are local in our focus and I think
partly why we decide
to just concentrate on Wiltshire
is because it's over
worryingly bleak sometimes.
And I think we
we need to feel like change is possible.
So if we can make change happen locally,
(30:58):
it sustains us
and we cannot change the cost
of living crisis nationally.
We cannot change the social care
funding nationally,
but we focus on making life
good for disabled people in Wiltshire.
So I don't tend to get too
invested on what's going on
nationally that day to day experience.
It just sometimes just looks a bit more,
(31:20):
as you say, cool,
hit them in like the cities.
There just seems to be
that maybe it is a it's accessible,
you know, maybe
maybe it's a myth.
Yeah. You know, they've got things.
We always end up going to places
like the Westfield Shopping Center,
which I was
would never have gone there
when I was younger. It's not.
Yeah, I'd go too.
(31:40):
But it is absolutely accessible.
And you've got restaurants
and bars and toilets and shops and blah.
Yeah. Yeah.
When I was there in London last time,
Peter Andre appeared on stage.
Really?
You can't ask for anything more, can you?
I don't think.
Well, that's a reason
to stay out of the cities!
(32:01):
So you,
there's a couple of things
you said that
you'd like to talk about, so.
Well,
I think we probably cover
the various
different ways of meeting
and connecting and delivering services
and things like you saying through the
what's the name of the software
of Minecraft.
I, I only know lots about it
because I have
a 12 year old son,
(32:23):
but it is about that is about how can we
like that's what co-production is about
you almost co-produce
how are you going to co-produce?
Because there's no point in on events
that people don't want to come to.
And I think, you know,
I as a carer,
my child's got learning disability
and I don't go to any parent groups.
(32:46):
I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole!
And that's not because
I don't believe in peer support or
I'm too busy
and I've got good enough closeness
group of friends and family.
I get my support from them.
Again, it's relational.
Yeah, they get me, they understand me.
They know my son
and so for
(33:07):
me, when I started Wiltshire CIL,
so it was like I, I came in to, to
look at peer support
and we kind of moved away from
it really quickly
because we just realized people
didn't want it in that way, you know,
they didn't want us engineering it.
Yeah, And really interesting isn't it?
You know, I,
the study that I was dong for my PhD...
(33:30):
I was really interested
in different kinds of capital
and social capital
is a really interesting thing
in the way that it works.
So people with a common interest often
get together and like you
say, peer support,
talking about a specific issue.
But then if that specific issue
is all you're talking about,
then suddenly it's like, well, why
we here?
I don't want a cup of tea with you
because we don't do anything else
in common apart
from talk about that one thing!
(33:52):
And it could be
that sort of social comparison type thing
can be really useful at times.
I worked with an organisation
many years ago
and we did something when when they
when people were just discharged
from hospital, very, very frightened
because the stroke being such a sudden
and unexpected event
and we found social
comparison was very important to them.
(34:13):
They're in a group
where they didn't feel ‘other’,
they felt very safe
and they were able to say,
Oh, well,
I've got speech issues,
but at least I can walk,
or I'm in a wheelchair,
at least I can talk, you know.
And they used it to
everybody used it
in a really positive way.
But that was for a specific time
and place.
(34:33):
And then they
as they grew more confident,
they wanted to reconnect
with their networks and
their communities.
So I think it's that
it's just listening to people.
Isn't that what they want?
But yeah, I think deep
I think
as long as we keep our values straight
and our values are forged in sort of....
Steel,
they as a as a disabled
(34:54):
peoples’ organization,
that everything
nothing about us
without us choice and control,
that type of thing,
then I think that gives us loads of scope
to evolve and change.
And you know, but what I can't see myself
in any other
voluntary sector organization
because nowhere else would allow for.
(35:15):
And the
the word radical is almost
become a funny word now, hasn't it.
It's like it's,
it's, it's sort of being over used
but I think radical really applies to us
and I'm really proud to be so in a like
a radical organization.
You know,
I think we're really good at doing things
that are very difficult to do.
(35:35):
So you get given 50p and suddenly
you get £2,000 out of it.
Yeah, that's a bit extreme,
but obviously,
you know,
we're very good
at stretching budgets to big to be able
to do the things that we want to do.
Yeah.
Switch frameworks
so that
if a funding application comes out for X,
then we apply for it
and we get it because we do X,
but we'll also put a bit
Y and Z on the top.
(35:56):
Yeah, Yeah.
And then at that value
and then that goes into the tender. Yeah.
And then you say look at all
the added value regarding that
and also not letting funding stop us.
So
you know you can sit round
with ‘Makes Someone Welcome’ for example,
that was never funded.
So the first four years
(36:17):
we just started it as a
that's when we discovered social media
and how useful it could be for us.
And then we just kind of
let it grow itself and
trusted it to grow.
And then as it grew,
that got more attention
and then we start getting funding.
So it's like, build it
(36:37):
and they will come.
You know, we are the we are the future.
Yeah. Well.
What does the future look like,
you think, for DPOs? You know?
Well,
for us, I'm really excited
and I think we stay
a little bit left field from the way...
(36:59):
So.
So at the moment, as I said,
there's a real drive to have
the VCSE says it's very professional,
homogenous
sector.
That is the voluntary sector,
the voluntary community
service enterprise.
So no, that's not right anyway.
(37:19):
Is all the other voluntary
sector organizations.
There's lots of highfalutin meetings.
I'm invited,
so I'm very careful about the meetings.
I get a because actually
I, I ask all the staff to use
reflective questioning
in their daily work.
And is this making a difference?
The bit to disable people in Wiltshire?
If the answer is no,
(37:40):
don't go, don't get involved!
And that's from
their daily work to the stuff I do.
So we reflect on what we do
and make sure
that we keep on the mission.
But I think we're interesting
in that we can,
you know,
we can be a little bit left field,
but we get stuff done that way
with doers.
Yeah, yeah,
definitely do, is
(38:01):
you know,
time is of the essence at all times
I think.
Yeah.
Anything that you would
like to talk about.
I think we've covered
loads of stuff
we said we were going to talk about.
I think I think the rurality is an issue.
I think that there's a big gap
now with disability world
and the disability field.
Certainly I come from a disability
(38:22):
studies background
and there's very little research
in the field of disability
studies in relation
to disability and rurality
and I think we do have
a big set of our own issues and problems
because of all the infrastructure issues.
We've got a lot more people
who are lonely and isolated.
I think we probably get
a lot more
mental health issues
because people can feel
(38:42):
isolated and lonely sometimes
and it's difficult to get out of stuff.
It's difficult
to go out and get a bag of
sugar or a cup of tea
when you want those things.
If you live in the middle of nowhere
and you can't drive a car or whatever.
Yeah,
I think there is a whole set of issues
around disability and rurality,
which isn't,
which is that
relates to those things but also more.
(39:03):
Yeah,
and I
definitely think for younger
disabled people
who aren't given the opportunity
to leave home
and end up
living in a very rural setting,
that's some, you know, there's people
we work with
who are really bloody miserable
(39:23):
because they're a young person
who should be going out
exploring who they are as a person,
going out, get drunk or not.
But, you know,
having lots of different experiences
and they can't
because they can't get the right care.
So they get
a big agency coming in
to deliver their care.
(39:43):
They're living at home with mum and dad,
and that's not right for anybody
from the age of like 18 to 25.
That should be a time of exploring.
And I think maybe
this is where I'm jealous of cities,
because you get things
like if say, if I was we're
in a big university city
you could get things like gig
(40:04):
buddies in place
where you get volun volunteers
coming together
and taking people off to gigs
and you know, the whole
stay up late campaign
and stuff like that.
That's a lot easier to do in a city.
But if you've got a young person
who's stuck out in a village
in the middle of nowhere
and we have worked
with with people like that
(40:24):
throughout the years,
Who, just has quite complicated
care needs, but is a young person
who wants their own life
and their own identity and their own job.
That's that's the bit...
I think we've got to crack.
Yeah, no, I agree.
There's a stay up late
event I remember in Penzance
(40:44):
a few years ago.
But you know, from villages like mine,
which is,
you know, it's
only five miles away from Penzance.
Well, how are they going to get there
and how is it going to work out
and how are they going to get home again?
And you have all of that kind of process.
Yeah. Yeah.
Whereas if you're in a
like University City,
say, for example, you just
then that would that would work.
Well, you could be brilliant.
(41:06):
It'd be easy.
So it makes life harder
living in we're living in
these huge rural places
that, you know we have to just.
In terms of things like second homes
and second home ownership.
And so a lot of our properties
around me,
there's a village down the road from me
and it's like 70% empty
in the dark months of the year.
(41:27):
Yes. Horrendous.
You know.
And so,
yeah, we've gone through the roof
so local people can't buy houses.
So the disabled people
to find the accessible property
and to get onto that
accessible property ladder.
That's yeah, a nightmare.
Yeah. For local authority.
So I know somebody wants to move out.
They became
they were like 18, 19, 20 years old.
They wanted to move out
(41:47):
from their parents house,
so they applied to the local authority
for an accessible property
and they got,
they found an accessible property,
but it was 70 miles away
and they want to.
Rip in
that rip in them
away from community, family,
all the things we say that matters,
You rip them away from that.
You know,
they wanted to move out of home,
but not that out of home.
(42:07):
We do have that.
Yeah, we do have that here.
So
we have the housing stock,
but it's not in the right.
It's not where people live.
Yeah, So,
so and because we have the same problems
with huge swathes of green,
which is lovely, but what it means is
(42:29):
you take,
you're taking people away
from everything they know and love
and then shoving them in a house
where they've got no connection,
they don't feel safe,
they don't feel well supported
and we have been working with the Council
on the Housing policy, just saying, look,
the things that matter to people
are having really good relationships
(42:51):
in their lives,
having communities
where they feel valued.
You can't just shove someone
bricks and mortars.
The first thing you know...
I keep referring to this at the moment
the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Exactly.
You can't just dig the bottom.
Yeah, you've got to
(43:12):
you know,
you've got to do all the bits
of the triangle.
Go and make sure that people get to live
well as as opposed to just living.
Yeah, but at the moment,
I mean this is why I'm,
I try the organization tries to stay
optimistic in terms of the wins we get.
But at the moment it's really difficult
(43:33):
to see that people are even struggling
just to,
you know,
get to that that bottom rung is working.
Now, what it's very difficult
times are
when we're about
we're going into the winter
and it's going to be difficult.
You're right. Yeah.
Focus on all those stick
with our local wins.
We have to win locally
because you know
and that your real question
(43:54):
that you ask yourself
is it going to make a difference
to people
locally is a big question
and that's the question
I think we will keep at the front
of our minds all the time.
Yeah, stay
motivated really,
because otherwise you will.
As you know, if you
if somebody accused us of what
we were
at some London events
and I was like, oh,
we only concentrate on Wiltshire
(44:15):
and they're like,
You sound like such a yokel.
And I'm like, That's fine.
I'm proud to be a yokel Or go to London.
I've got a stick, a straw in my mouth
every time I go there,
and I'm pleased of it.
In fact,
you can tell when you go to the cities
because everyone looks nice,
neat and tidy,
not just a scruffy 1970s Theo!!
With mud up, always mud splattered.
(44:36):
Exactly.
Hey, listen, it's lovely talking to you.
Lovely to see you...
I feel that I have talked at you again!
That's the point.
I like it.
Thank you very much for your time.
No worries!
And the voice held out!
The voice held out and
it's that time of year.
Have a very merry Christmas
and a very happy New Year.
Cheers Theo, bye!
(44:59):
Bye!
Very good.
Hello.
So it's
Theo Blackmore here again from Disability
Cornwall of the Isles of Scilly.
And I'm talking to.
Mary Reed from Wiltshire Center
for Independent Living in Wiltshire.
Brilliant.
Whereabouts in Wiltshire are you?
So we're
based right in the very center
in Devizes.
And the reason
(00:29):
why that we cover the whole of Wiltshire
and the reason we're there
is because it's a bit of a
well as you know,
a bit of a county to navigate.
And so like Cornwall.
So we just try to be as central
as we could really.
You know, it's amazing.
I had a quick
look on the map
before we
having this conversation of Wiltshire.
(00:49):
You know, you've got some well,
you've got the motorway across the top
and you've
probably got the
A30 across the bottom and or the A308?
A303! ...
Road to the Sun.
And then you've got in the middle of it,
you really got Stonehenge
and you got cities
kind of in it and around it.
So it is quite a diverse county, I think.
Well the biggest pain about
(01:12):
Wiltshire,
if you're trying to do anything,
is it's got a massive firing range
in the middle of it,
which is Salisbury Plain.
So a massive
wilderness really, which is lovely.
But what it means is that
often people in the South
look to Southampton
(01:32):
and people in the north
look to either Bath, Swindon, Oxford,
and so it's really difficult
to pull people together
as a whole.
And you know, it's been funny.
We've tried all sorts of things,
but people never cross the plain
to come to an event.
Well, and it's
because they might get shot
(01:52):
at It's is
it is actually people
that with live ammunition.
Oh gosh yes.
I live on the edge of the plain.
And sometimes it's
like being in a war zone.
You can hear the ‘ratatatta’,
the machine guns and heavy artillery
and all sorts of things.
Yeah, it's proper war stuff here.
Is that so?
That must be really quite intense at them
because they're bringing people
over from Ukraine and training them.
(02:13):
Is are they training them there?
Maybe that would explain it.
Yeah. The houses being shaking.
Oh yeah, not today, but the other way.
It was like,
honestly, I kept going to the door, kept
thinking someone was
knocking at the door. So.
Yeah, yeah.
And you've also got Stonehenge.
You've got Stonehenge in Wiltshire.
Yeah. They havn’t blown that up!
Yeah.
We've got Stonehenge
(02:34):
and we've got Avebury as well,
which is much better than Stonehenge
because it's bigger
and you get in the middle of it
and walk around it
and there's a pub in the middle of it
as well. So.
So for people who don't know,
because I remember,
because I went to university in Redding
and a friend of mine went down there
and it's basically a stone circle
around a village, isn't it?
Yeah. Yeah.
Amazing. Yeah, it's really good.
(02:55):
It's I always say,
because people always
want to get to Stonehenge like that.
It's a little bit of an anti-climax,
always going to Avebury!
Pretty good. Thing.
So, you know, life in Wiltshire
sounds pretty fabulous,
but it's also probably very similar
to Cornwall in lots of ways.
And the allowed
the ways of getting from A to
B are little tiny rural country lanes
(03:18):
with poor infrastructure,
bad public transport.
I don't suppose you've got many trains
going through Wiltshire.
Are trains are shocking.
So we, I mean parts of Wiltshire
you got direct line to London
and stuff like that,
but local trains are non-existent.
You couldn't
so you have to be, especially as a
disabled person,
(03:39):
you have to be a car driver
or have access to a vehicle.
The taxis are
awful as well,
so we have to arrange events around
certain times of day
because of school runs.
You won't get an accessible taxi
until about between ten and two.
(03:59):
You can get one,
but otherwise it's really difficult.
I can remember once we had Clenton
Farquharson [MBE] coming down
the chair of Think Local Act Personal
and he's a wheelchair user
and he he came to Chippenham.
We were like,
you sure are you going to be okay
to get to your hotel?
He's like, He comes from Birmingham.
(04:20):
He's like, Yeah, yeah, I'll be fine.
I'll be fine.
Oh, gosh, it was so embarrassing.
He
we had no means of getting him
from the train station
three miles up the road
because we hadn't booked a taxi
three days in advance.
And they kept saying to him,
Could you not just get out of your chair
for a little while and get into a taxi?
(04:40):
And so he was just aghast
because coming from Birmingham,
you just couldn't believe that.
You couldn't just easily get
from one place to another.
You know, it's amazing.
I forgotten about the school run,
so I tried to book a taxi a while ago.
In fact, today I couldn't at 3:00
or anywhere near that
because and that's the exact time
(05:00):
that I needed it, of course.
Yes. Yeah.
It's because there's a limit to vehicles,
isn't it, in the county.
And taxi drivers as well.
Yeah.
And how,
how's the bus services and all of that.
Do you have accessible busses there.
We do
and we've just done
some of really interesting.
So part of the stuff
we do
is our user engagement service,
which is funded by Wiltshire Council and
(05:24):
what was the CCG and clinical
commissioning group,
which is now the Integrated Care Board.
I think I have that right
where it might be the
integrated care system
and we
got some extra
funding from Transport Wiltshire,
the bus companies in Wiltshire,
to talk about how we could highlight
(05:47):
just how the bus drivers needed to work
with disabled passengers.
And we did loads of really cool stuff
for the team headed up by
someone known as ‘Young Mary’ at work.
So that makes me old Mary.
I think it's a really good
like focus groups on the bus
(06:08):
like secret shopper
loads of like tik-tok videos
about getting on
enough busses in Wiltshire
and they're training the bus drivers
now disability equality
and using all that they found
and the transport
really, really willing to do
things differently
and wants to do things differently.
And they gave us money
(06:29):
to do that project.
So there's willingness.
It's there accessible, it's just,
it's just promoting it really.
Yeah I well that's, that's good.
I should explain to everybody
that you can be a bit husky
maybe every now and again
and you've got a bit of a cough
because you're just surviving
your second round of COVID. Yes.
(06:51):
So, well. Well done for surviving.
And thank you for being here,
even though you'll probably be in bed
probably.
Feeling much better today
because my grandmother
always used to say.
But but
the it's just affecting my voice.
It's really annoying
because I love talking.
It's a terrible thing.
So this isn't probably the right place
to bring this up,
but I will bring it up anyway.
(07:12):
One of the things I like
reading his famous last words.
Yeah,
and as a playwright,
Norwegian playwright or Nordic
playwright called Ibsen.
Yeah, it is very poorly.
It is in bed and flat out it is his.
And yet a carer there looking after him,
feeding him and watering him
and all of that.
And somebody came and knocked
at the door and they said,
How is Mr.
Ibsen today.
The carer said
(07:33):
well I think he's,
I think he's doing a little bit
better at Ibsen.
Sat up in bed
and said on the contrary, then died!!
Not as good as the Spike Milligan
where he had on his
tombstone, I told you I was ill!
But the public transport thing,
so the busses thing.
So the thing about
what happens in Cornwall
is that they put,
they put the bus timetable up
(07:54):
and they have a limited number
of accessible busses, but
you don't really know which one is which.
And so the bus arrives
and it might be accessible
and then it goes in.
If it is accessible,
then it could take you from my village,
for example, to the town.
And then to get back again,
I have to wait for an accessible bus.
And again,
you can't tell from the timetable,
so one may show up at the time it says,
(08:14):
but also it might not.
So then you've got to wait
another hour for the next one.
And I think as well,
we're trying to get the drivers
more confident to gently and strongly
challenge people
being in the wheelchair spaces.
And I think that's part of the work
we be doing with this co-production
project is like it's okay to say
(08:35):
to people who are sitting that
you need to move
because woman in a wheelchair
wants to get on
because often
somebody in a wheelchair
then has to deal with that themselves
and it makes things
very uncomfortable for them.
Whereas if the bus driver
just took control and said,
actually this space is allocated,
I think that would make things
(08:55):
a lot easier for people
because in the past we've had it
where somebody has been waiting
and the drivers just driven past
because there's somebody who's been
sat in the space
with a buggy or, you know,
but it doesn't have to create conflict,
but it just needs
what we're all about
with that bus project and with loads.
What we do is just raising awareness
and saying,
(09:15):
you know, it's just about
being more thoughtful.
So I remember there was that
thing last year, wasn't it?
Was it last year or the year before even?
I don't know.
But about people with prams taken up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Accessible spaces or busses.
You don't want to pit groups
against each other
like young mums against disabled people.
Yeah.
Because that's what,
(09:36):
that's what people love
and that's really unhelpful.
But sometimes it is just explaining
or finding ways to,
to explain the situation to people
so that they understand
rather than creating conflict.
And so the consequence of that all
a bit as well is that disabled
people need to have
either their access to a car
or their, their own car,
(09:57):
but ways of getting around,
they need to make their own ways
of getting around,
otherwise they never get to get there
in terms of services.
So what I'm thinking is
lots of disabled people's organizations
provide specific services and
for example, in relation to
personal assistant services.
So in Cornwall
we have a PA [Personal Assistant] bank
through Disability Cornwall,
so that links up
(10:18):
if a disabled person lives in Bude
up in the north of the county,
then there's carers up there
after they will link them with them
rather than with people in 100 miles
way down here
and whatever get there on time.
I mean,
do you have ways of getting around that?
Well,
what we're trying to encourage is
and we're working with the council on
this is more micro-enterprises.
(10:39):
So we have Abby, PA Development Worker.
She’s brilliant.
She uses PAs’ herself
and she goes and chats to
parents at the school gate, to local,
local groups and says,
Oh, have you thought about being a P.A.
and it's difficult, you know,
you don't have to see a carer in a tabard
(11:00):
and see it's your life's work.
But actually this could really fit in
with your life,
you know, could fit in
with your school, run,
or it could fit in
with your other responsibilities.
And what we're finding, as well as
what we're trying to do is group work.
So pull budgets, we're not there yet.
It's really complicated to do this
in terms of the funding,
but because what is it?
(11:22):
Someone won't travel
all the way out to a village
for one hour's work,
but it says within three miles
they can get like 5 hours
work in that day.
That's what I'm going to.
And we've even because at the moment,
as I expect in Cornwall,
they're really keen
to find
innovative ways to help people
get home out of hospital.
(11:42):
And we said, Well,
would you provide a grant
to pay for people
to get their cars back on the road?
Because a lot of the people
we're talking to in towns, say Salisbury,
the place around Salisbury,
which is like a city,
we can get those appeals in the city,
but there's loads of little villages
dotted around
that they can't travel to because
(12:05):
because of the cost of living,
they've had to take the car off the road
so they've no insurance or tax.
And we said,
or I MOT even, as we said, if we
if you could give them a grant
to make that car roadworthy again
and then that would kickstart them
to get in the job
and being able to travel out to that job.
So I will say we're trying
all sorts of things
(12:26):
to get
to get that support in the villages
because to be fair, a PA or a carer
and a minimum wage in a dodgy car,
they're not shows, you know,
very safe to drive
in, isn’t
going to want to be driving around
these lanes at 10:00 at night, you know,
doing the job.
It's because it's
(12:47):
it's not it's not very attractive
job really,
especially when they could be in a
residential home and be Yeah.
You know, everything that but equally
we're trying to Abby and her PA Danny
did a lovely video around what their
relationship was like
(13:08):
and it was brilliant and it just was so,
so different
from the usual plastic apron,
tabard type PA, you know, that
sort of Danny’s part of her family
and so we're trying to sell
care in a completely different way
to that, to what people perceive it,
(13:29):
because I do believe
that COVID has put people off care work
because they think,
hang on a minute, I'm paying paid
minimum wage
and I'm expected
to put my life on the line.
No, thank you. You know.
Yeah, No, that's amazing.
I hadn't thought of that.
The whole COVID thing.
I mean, did it
how did it hit you as an organization?
I mean, we basically closed
(13:50):
I mean, loads of across
the country closed their doors.
In fact, most
DPOs’ still are not open.
I think, you know,
they found new ways of working
so that the doors are closed
and some of them have stopped renting.
The building's full stop.
And so that means that
they don't have that
great big overhead cost
because they found that during COVID
they could operate in this way
(14:10):
that we're doing now.
So working from home
basically through the through the laptop.
We've always kind of done a bit of hybrid
because we're such a huge geography here.
So we've always done
lots of telephone support, lots of
we haven't always
just relied on home visits.
And in the early days
we used to try and get people together
for peer support
(14:30):
and they just weren't interested, right?
You they were like,
anything I've got going with the
is a benefit. Yeah, nothing else.
And actually I'd rather be with me
family and friends, but just support me.
Well here
so we were you we go
you know we
we tend to support people
to keep their own networks
as opposed to try and create new networks
for them to begin to.
(14:51):
Yeah, we kept our office space because
our values are really important to us.
And as
and our little tribe
is really important to us.
So we like coming together.
It's more for the staff
than for people coming externally and
because I think you lose
a lot by being at home all the time.
I think you lose a lot.
So one of the things
that I'm interested in
(15:12):
is about organizational knowledge.
So how do organizations work and operate
and what are all the different jobs
in that organization
and who is doing what?
And then so
if somebody phones in and says
can I do this,
then you can either answer it or,
you know, the person will answer it.
So yeah,
that kind of organizational understanding
is something that's very,
very important, I think.
So organizations
(15:32):
that lose their businesses
and disperse their staff in that way
might find that more.
And it makes it more difficult
to carry the organization forward.
And so when you recruit people, you know,
always remember going into new jobs
that they say, Oh,
this is how we do it around here.
We do that around here.
This is how that works.
Yeah, you don’t
get that
if you're working at home do you.
So I just think there's a disconnect
(15:54):
when you work from home all the time.
We didn't even get to hybrid working,
but we appreciate that.
But I work from home two days a week
because otherwise I wouldn't
get picked up because I'm
very easily distracted.
Yeah, but, but I think it's really the,
the culture of our organisation
was really important to us
(16:14):
and we have found that difficult
as we have expanded.
We had a bit of a weird experience
in Cambridge
and that we expanded quite rapidly
and we doubled our staff
because we took on new projects
which was really difficult to navigate
and I think we're still feeling
the aftereffects like that,
that as an organization,
still trying to bring
new members of staff on board
(16:35):
and an understanding of who we are
as a organisation.
I mean, loads of organizations
expanded temporarily
because they took on local contracts
to help
get through COVID,
to help disabled people with stuff
like food and medicines.
There's all sorts of different things
and knows that disabled people's
organizations changed
from being kind of reactive,
(16:55):
shall we say, so
with the telephone helpline.
So I would phone into my local DPO
and ask for help and assistance.
And Les
did the opposite
and started
calling out during COVID
to give people social contact
because other people are isolated
and living on their own,
like little remote hamlets
down here in Cornwall.
We were phoning them
and saying, We've got everything
you need, this, that and the other.
(17:16):
And then how are you today
and how is your,
you know, just doing a bit of social.
Yeah, we did.
We, we find everyone on DP lists
and we launched a community
Connect service
just before the community closed down.
So that was quite tricky.
Let's just say.
But it's gone from strength
to strength now.
(17:37):
And that's it's more about how we support
people to use their own strengths
and strengths of that community.
So rather than befriending or us
doing onto them, it's about how we grow
their resourcefulness, their resilience
and their self-belief
and get them the right resources around
them so that they live well
(18:00):
and that that works really well for us
because I honestly believe in Wiltshire.
I mean, I'm Wiltshire born and bred
and I really believe that
we're a brilliant community here
and that communities
want to be as inclusive as they can.
Sometimes they don't advertise it
(18:22):
because they worry about getting told of
risk assessments and safeguarding.
And so they do,
you know,
it can be a bit like Cornwall,
a bit of a lawless county.
And I love that,
you know,
I think if we don't risk stuff,
nothing ever develops.
Nothing ever changes.
So I love a bit naughtiness
with the stuff we do.
(18:43):
We try and take risks.
You know,
one of our main lines
at Wiltshire Centre for Independant
Living is
still is
don't ask for permission
first, ask for forgiveness later.
And and it just works for us.
Because if you wait for what:
A) why would you wait for the powers
that be?
And because who are they
to tell us what to do?
B) they have to go through
so many committees,
(19:03):
nothing ever gets done anyway.
But I think with us we run the Make
Someone Welcome campaign
and all that is is saying
it's just brilliant to
be inclusive of everybody
in your community,
not just disabled people, everybody.
And being inclusive can
mean can be as simple
as saying hello
(19:23):
to someone at the bus stop.
It doesn't have to be
a big grand gesture
of volunteering
or befriending or anything like that.
And it works better when you connect
with someone as an equal
as opposed to helping them or,
oh, you poor person with all your needs
I'm going to do on to you.
You know,
it was better for both sides
(19:44):
if you meet the equals.
And when we started that campaign
quite a few years ago,
we we developed a training package
and I can remember training package
on how to be inclusive. And I remember
doing that training package
and being really embarrassed
because actually
nobody needed to be trained
on being inclusive...
they got it, everyone was doing it.
(20:06):
They just weren't making a song and dance
about it.
You know,
I don't know very much about Wiltshire,
but I guess in the center of it
you don't get much through of people.
I mean, because
like what happens in Cornwall is,
you know,
the negative thing
that people say about Cornwall
is they know
we're like a Christmas stocking.
They say the nuts
always sink to the bottom.
(20:27):
Okay, people
get to the end of Cornwall
and then don't really move
for generations, you know,
And there are people
who've been down here and don't
go very far from down here
because there's not
there's no through road
or no through way.
And I suppose in the center of Wiltshire
there'll be similar
sort of places
where they're small villages with,
you know,
kind of static populations
(20:48):
who really do know each other.
Know everybody for each other.
Yeah, yeah.
We've had a bit of an influx of,
you know,
I can remember
the yuppies coming and things like that
and because we've got
train link to London.
But yeah,
communities are pretty solid
and you know, workingmen's associations
and stuff like that, it's,
(21:08):
there's, there's a lot of love
and care within the villages
I think can sometimes be overlooked.
Yeah.
And people really do
look out for each other.
I mean down here
in my local village,
everybody knows everyone,
but that works both ways.
And so it means that everybody
is looking out for everybody else
all the time.
Yeah, Yeah.
Can be a bit annoying
if you're a teenager.
(21:29):
Everything's annoying
when you're a teenager.
Well
when you are trying to do naughty things
and there's a hundred
people who know you are where you live!
But kind of the the,
the sort of the whole,
you know, the sum of all of those things.
If you haven't got great railway links,
your busses can be a bit intermittent.
They probably come along once every hour
and you don't have a car.
(21:50):
And in fact
right now with this snowy weather,
tidy lanes don't get gritted.
You know,
there can be situations
where people get really quite
isolated out of. Yeah.
So what happens here in a rural area.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
I mean
and I think that's up to us just to,
just to try
and make those local connections
(22:10):
because they're a lot more sustainable
than trying
to get in big services in to deliver.
Yeah, you get lost in big services,
but there's local
connections where you can see it
a lot more sustainable and that that done
because
there's a relationship between people,
whereas a service there's not that often
(22:33):
that there might not be
that relationship.
So a lot of the stuff
we do, it's my thing,
a lot of the stuff we do is relational,
all about relationships,
because if you care for somebody,
then you'll do something for them.
And we would talk.
We talking a lot
about community response,
and I'm very nervous about
(22:54):
there's a lot with the NHS plans
and changes around,
Oh well, the community will do it.
But what they don't understand is
the community is a resource to exploit,
you know,
and a community
can't be in crisis
response mode all the time.
So yes, the community
really galvanize itself on COVID,
(23:15):
but that's because we had a pandemic.
People went back to live their lives, but
also communities work
when people know each other.
So you can't try and
scale up everything that
happened in COVID
because a lot of it was street to street
neighbour to neighbour.
And that's what you want to,
(23:36):
you know, nourish and let grow slowly.
But they kind of always want to scale up
and turn into something
and then turn it almost into a service.
Yeah.
And a lot of the services
now are disappearing
or being cut,
you know, with all
that ten years of austerity
or whatever it was.
And then
and now we're in a situation
where it's going to
looks like it's going to be carrying on.
(23:57):
The local authorities in
many ways are getting well,
they're getting less funding
than they ever did get.
And so local authorities
know that there are services
and they know that
there are needs out there.
And so they kind of rely
a bit more on us
as the voluntary sector organizations
and I think think
that we will pick things up
if things really do fall through the net
or pick people up
if they fall through the that area.
(24:19):
Yeah, I know. And it
I don't know about you,
but we have to sort of
the way that talking to the VCSE.
Yeah.
Is like we're
we're one of the statutory partner
and we're sort of
I've shied away from some of that
because I think
I love working
for Disabled people's organization.
(24:40):
I feel
we were sort of
forged in the civil rights movement
and we are quite radical,
different organizations
that are prepared to push boundaries.
And I think it'd be really sad
if we just become part of the system.
You know, that's interesting.
So I've always said that
disabled people's
organizations are different
(25:00):
sector almost.
Yeah,
you lot people say that you're
just a subsector
of the voluntary community sector,
but we have our own thing as well.
So that's one thing is
that we're kind of controlled
and led by disabled people.
So as disabled people,
I think we're used to finding the gaps
and finding the way through the world.
And so our organizations
kind of do similar.
(25:21):
So that whole thing
that you were saying earlier
about the wild, Wild West, you know,
we're kind of used to doing that.
You have to take a bit of
a risk, otherwise nothing ever gets done.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm being massively flexible and a bit
bit naughty and quick and quick as well.
Yeah. Yes.
Somebody was saying to me about the,
the software
engineers in Silicon Valley, they,
(25:44):
they will put something it's practice
and come up with the idea
on the Sunday night,
put it into practice on Monday
it breaks on the Tuesday.
They fiddle around with it
and they have it back up at work
it on the Wednesday.
You imagine a local authority.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to change
how direct payments are delivered, right?
We've got to put it
to practice on the Monday
(26:05):
since we left them with.
No you know, local authority.
Yeah. They moved very slowly.
The committee by committee isn't it.
Yeah.
But I'm so going
with the Silicon Valley thing.
That's what I want to be.
That's what
I want
the organization to be like is quick.
You know, we learn from our mistakes.
Yeah.
And so do you see a difference
between I mean,
you must have contacts
(26:26):
with DPOs in urban areas.
So in places like London
or other cities, Bristol,
I suppose, would be the nearer one. I
we don't have a lot.
We do. We do.
We do some joint
visiting around direct payments.
I, I just
there's a little bit of envy going on
(26:46):
how quickly they can
mobilize disabled people
to rally around things.
Yeah, because we struggle.
I don't know if you find that.
It's just everyone
is really difficult to like.
We couldn't man
the barricades very easily in
Wiltshire firstly.
See we’d have to find somewhere
pretty central to put barricades up
(27:06):
and there'd be loads of arguments
about that. And,
and
so I can remember when it was was it
the Independent Living Fund?
Can you remember the Independent
Living Fund.
And they got rid of that. Yeah.
And we tried really hard
to get people together as individuals.
They were really cross and sad
(27:27):
that they were losing their ILF,
but we could not mobilize them
into a force that.
So we're looking we're doing it now
more and more,
but we're doing it through Facebook
and we're using social media
a lot more to
to do what we can't
do sort of in physical person.
(27:47):
And so that kind of
leads onto the next question is, is
which is like climbing
disabled people's organizations,
Do you think we are you know,
you mentioned
that we grew out of the civil
rights struggle
and we've evolved
into being what we are today.
Do you think the future for DPOs’
is that similar to what we are today?
So I think personally that we'll get lots
to attract a younger generation
to get on board.
(28:08):
In many ways,
they are much more tech savvy
than old people like me,
and they will
operate them in different ways.
So they'll DPOs will change and evolve,
I think can fill up
more of a virtual space.
So when you get that mobilization,
it might be easier to mobilize
disabled people
through that virtual space
rather than actually get them
to a specific place in time
(28:28):
on the Tuesday afternoon.
Yeah,
I think we're all
so we're just about start this.
We're really excited.
We've been trying to get funding to do
young people's co-production
for years and years and years
and we've got it
and we're going to be
starting that next year
and we're looking at things even like
having forums on Minecraft,
(28:51):
you know, Minecraft.
I shoot people game. Is it?
No, it's lovely.
Minecraft.
You build things, it's
like Lego, but online and, and like
kids love, it
is really creative.
So we're looking almost
to hold co-production groups
on, on things like that.
(29:11):
And
you know,
like having the focus groups on busses
so actually
taking activities
to people where they are
as opposed to expecting people
to come into a church
or with a cup of tea.
The biscuit
I think we have to make especially,
you know,
necessity is the mother of invention, is
that you can't do that in Cornwall,
(29:32):
you can't do in Wiltshire,
You can't just say, Right,
we've got to meet here on Tuesday
and it to be really easy.
Yeah, yeah.
You know,
but I don't even necessarily
think it's that easy
in other places either
because I remember I was in London,
went up to London,
this is a couple of years ago
now, and we stayed in a hotel
in the east end of London for a meeting.
And so my wife went out
to go and find out she's not, you know,
(29:54):
I use an entrance gates
and she's ambulant.
So she just went off to go find somebody
for us to have our dinner.
And she went to all these places
full of hipster
youngsters, all on their laptop
and then having a lovely time...
and reading the papers
and chatting and gossiping.
We couldn't get into any one of them.
Really. Yeah.
And so we ended up going
ended up getting a
delivery to the hotel
(30:15):
because we were in the hotel.
So that was.
Yeah,
but I
certainly think that actually London
might not be as easy
as I thought it would be.
Yeah, I think, I mean I think,
I think a while ago we decided,
although I really like linking
with national organizations
like Social Care Futures
and Think Local Act Personal,
and Disability Rights UK, where
(30:36):
I've sort of been linked with yourself
and things like that,
I think that's really useful
for my understanding.
But we are local in our focus and I think
partly why we decide
to just concentrate on Wiltshire
is because it's over
worryingly bleak sometimes.
And I think we
we need to feel like change is possible.
So if we can make change happen locally,
(30:58):
it sustains us
and we cannot change the cost
of living crisis nationally.
We cannot change the social care
funding nationally,
but we focus on making life
good for disabled people in Wiltshire.
So I don't tend to get too
invested on what's going on
nationally that day to day experience.
It just sometimes just looks a bit more,
(31:20):
as you say, cool,
hit them in like the cities.
There just seems to be
that maybe it is a it's accessible,
you know, maybe
maybe it's a myth.
Yeah. You know, they've got things.
We always end up going to places
like the Westfield Shopping Center,
which I was
would never have gone there
when I was younger. It's not.
Yeah, I'd go too.
(31:40):
But it is absolutely accessible.
And you've got restaurants
and bars and toilets and shops and blah.
Yeah. Yeah.
When I was there in London last time,
Peter Andre appeared on stage.
Really?
You can't ask for anything more, can you?
I don't think.
Well, that's a reason
to stay out of the cities!
(32:01):
So you,
there's a couple of things
you said that
you'd like to talk about, so.
Well,
I think we probably cover
the various
different ways of meeting
and connecting and delivering services
and things like you saying through the
what's the name of the software
of Minecraft.
I, I only know lots about it
because I have
a 12 year old son,
(32:23):
but it is about that is about how can we
like that's what co-production is about
you almost co-produce
how are you going to co-produce?
Because there's no point in on events
that people don't want to come to.
And I think, you know,
I as a carer,
my child's got learning disability
and I don't go to any parent groups.
(32:46):
I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole!
And that's not because
I don't believe in peer support or
I'm too busy
and I've got good enough closeness
group of friends and family.
I get my support from them.
Again, it's relational.
Yeah, they get me, they understand me.
They know my son
and so for
(33:07):
me, when I started Wiltshire CIL,
so it was like I, I came in to, to
look at peer support
and we kind of moved away from
it really quickly
because we just realized people
didn't want it in that way, you know,
they didn't want us engineering it.
Yeah, And really interesting isn't it?
You know, I,
the study that I was dong for my PhD...
(33:30):
I was really interested
in different kinds of capital
and social capital
is a really interesting thing
in the way that it works.
So people with a common interest often
get together and like you
say, peer support,
talking about a specific issue.
But then if that specific issue
is all you're talking about,
then suddenly it's like, well, why
we here?
I don't want a cup of tea with you
because we don't do anything else
in common apart
from talk about that one thing!
(33:52):
And it could be
that sort of social comparison type thing
can be really useful at times.
I worked with an organisation
many years ago
and we did something when when they
when people were just discharged
from hospital, very, very frightened
because the stroke being such a sudden
and unexpected event
and we found social
comparison was very important to them.
(34:13):
They're in a group
where they didn't feel ‘other’,
they felt very safe
and they were able to say,
Oh, well,
I've got speech issues,
but at least I can walk,
or I'm in a wheelchair,
at least I can talk, you know.
And they used it to
everybody used it
in a really positive way.
But that was for a specific time
and place.
(34:33):
And then they
as they grew more confident,
they wanted to reconnect
with their networks and
their communities.
So I think it's that
it's just listening to people.
Isn't that what they want?
But yeah, I think deep
I think
as long as we keep our values straight
and our values are forged in sort of....
Steel,
they as a as a disabled
(34:54):
peoples’ organization,
that everything
nothing about us
without us choice and control,
that type of thing,
then I think that gives us loads of scope
to evolve and change.
And you know, but what I can't see myself
in any other
voluntary sector organization
because nowhere else would allow for.
(35:15):
And the
the word radical is almost
become a funny word now, hasn't it.
It's like it's,
it's, it's sort of being over used
but I think radical really applies to us
and I'm really proud to be so in a like
a radical organization.
You know,
I think we're really good at doing things
that are very difficult to do.
(35:35):
So you get given 50p and suddenly
you get £2,000 out of it.
Yeah, that's a bit extreme,
but obviously,
you know,
we're very good
at stretching budgets to big to be able
to do the things that we want to do.
Yeah.
Switch frameworks
so that
if a funding application comes out for X,
then we apply for it
and we get it because we do X,
but we'll also put a bit
Y and Z on the top.
(35:56):
Yeah, Yeah.
And then at that value
and then that goes into the tender. Yeah.
And then you say look at all
the added value regarding that
and also not letting funding stop us.
So
you know you can sit round
with ‘Makes Someone Welcome’ for example,
that was never funded.
So the first four years
(36:17):
we just started it as a
that's when we discovered social media
and how useful it could be for us.
And then we just kind of
let it grow itself and
trusted it to grow.
And then as it grew,
that got more attention
and then we start getting funding.
So it's like, build it
(36:37):
and they will come.
You know, we are the we are the future.
Yeah. Well.
What does the future look like,
you think, for DPOs? You know?
Well,
for us, I'm really excited
and I think we stay
a little bit left field from the way...
(36:59):
So.
So at the moment, as I said,
there's a real drive to have
the VCSE says it's very professional,
homogenous
sector.
That is the voluntary sector,
the voluntary community
service enterprise.
So no, that's not right anyway.
(37:19):
Is all the other voluntary
sector organizations.
There's lots of highfalutin meetings.
I'm invited,
so I'm very careful about the meetings.
I get a because actually
I, I ask all the staff to use
reflective questioning
in their daily work.
And is this making a difference?
The bit to disable people in Wiltshire?
If the answer is no,
(37:40):
don't go, don't get involved!
And that's from
their daily work to the stuff I do.
So we reflect on what we do
and make sure
that we keep on the mission.
But I think we're interesting
in that we can,
you know,
we can be a little bit left field,
but we get stuff done that way
with doers.
Yeah, yeah,
definitely do, is
(38:01):
you know,
time is of the essence at all times
I think.
Yeah.
Anything that you would
like to talk about.
I think we've covered
loads of stuff
we said we were going to talk about.
I think I think the rurality is an issue.
I think that there's a big gap
now with disability world
and the disability field.
Certainly I come from a disability
(38:22):
studies background
and there's very little research
in the field of disability
studies in relation
to disability and rurality
and I think we do have
a big set of our own issues and problems
because of all the infrastructure issues.
We've got a lot more people
who are lonely and isolated.
I think we probably get
a lot more
mental health issues
because people can feel
(38:42):
isolated and lonely sometimes
and it's difficult to get out of stuff.
It's difficult
to go out and get a bag of
sugar or a cup of tea
when you want those things.
If you live in the middle of nowhere
and you can't drive a car or whatever.
Yeah,
I think there is a whole set of issues
around disability and rurality,
which isn't,
which is that
relates to those things but also more.
(39:03):
Yeah,
and I
definitely think for younger
disabled people
who aren't given the opportunity
to leave home
and end up
living in a very rural setting,
that's some, you know, there's people
we work with
who are really bloody miserable
(39:23):
because they're a young person
who should be going out
exploring who they are as a person,
going out, get drunk or not.
But, you know,
having lots of different experiences
and they can't
because they can't get the right care.
So they get
a big agency coming in
to deliver their care.
(39:43):
They're living at home with mum and dad,
and that's not right for anybody
from the age of like 18 to 25.
That should be a time of exploring.
And I think maybe
this is where I'm jealous of cities,
because you get things
like if say, if I was we're
in a big university city
you could get things like gig
(40:04):
buddies in place
where you get volun volunteers
coming together
and taking people off to gigs
and you know, the whole
stay up late campaign
and stuff like that.
That's a lot easier to do in a city.
But if you've got a young person
who's stuck out in a village
in the middle of nowhere
and we have worked
with with people like that
(40:24):
throughout the years,
Who, just has quite complicated
care needs, but is a young person
who wants their own life
and their own identity and their own job.
That's that's the bit...
I think we've got to crack.
Yeah, no, I agree.
There's a stay up late
event I remember in Penzance
(40:44):
a few years ago.
But you know, from villages like mine,
which is,
you know, it's
only five miles away from Penzance.
Well, how are they going to get there
and how is it going to work out
and how are they going to get home again?
And you have all of that kind of process.
Yeah. Yeah.
Whereas if you're in a
like University City,
say, for example, you just
then that would that would work.
Well, you could be brilliant.
(41:06):
It'd be easy.
So it makes life harder
living in we're living in
these huge rural places
that, you know we have to just.
In terms of things like second homes
and second home ownership.
And so a lot of our properties
around me,
there's a village down the road from me
and it's like 70% empty
in the dark months of the year.
(41:27):
Yes. Horrendous.
You know.
And so,
yeah, we've gone through the roof
so local people can't buy houses.
So the disabled people
to find the accessible property
and to get onto that
accessible property ladder.
That's yeah, a nightmare.
Yeah. For local authority.
So I know somebody wants to move out.
They became
they were like 18, 19, 20 years old.
They wanted to move out
(41:47):
from their parents house,
so they applied to the local authority
for an accessible property
and they got,
they found an accessible property,
but it was 70 miles away
and they want to.
Rip in
that rip in them
away from community, family,
all the things we say that matters,
You rip them away from that.
You know,
they wanted to move out of home,
but not that out of home.
(42:07):
We do have that.
Yeah, we do have that here.
So
we have the housing stock,
but it's not in the right.
It's not where people live.
Yeah, So,
so and because we have the same problems
with huge swathes of green,
which is lovely, but what it means is
(42:29):
you take,
you're taking people away
from everything they know and love
and then shoving them in a house
where they've got no connection,
they don't feel safe,
they don't feel well supported
and we have been working with the Council
on the Housing policy, just saying, look,
the things that matter to people
are having really good relationships
(42:51):
in their lives,
having communities
where they feel valued.
You can't just shove someone
bricks and mortars.
The first thing you know...
I keep referring to this at the moment
the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Exactly.
You can't just dig the bottom.
Yeah, you've got to
(43:12):
you know,
you've got to do all the bits
of the triangle.
Go and make sure that people get to live
well as as opposed to just living.
Yeah, but at the moment,
I mean this is why I'm,
I try the organization tries to stay
optimistic in terms of the wins we get.
But at the moment it's really difficult
(43:33):
to see that people are even struggling
just to,
you know,
get to that that bottom rung is working.
Now, what it's very difficult
times are
when we're about
we're going into the winter
and it's going to be difficult.
You're right. Yeah.
Focus on all those stick
with our local wins.
We have to win locally
because you know
and that your real question
(43:54):
that you ask yourself
is it going to make a difference
to people
locally is a big question
and that's the question
I think we will keep at the front
of our minds all the time.
Yeah, stay
motivated really,
because otherwise you will.
As you know, if you
if somebody accused us of what
we were
at some London events
and I was like, oh,
we only concentrate on Wiltshire
(44:15):
and they're like,
You sound like such a yokel.
And I'm like, That's fine.
I'm proud to be a yokel Or go to London.
I've got a stick, a straw in my mouth
every time I go there,
and I'm pleased of it.
In fact,
you can tell when you go to the cities
because everyone looks nice,
neat and tidy,
not just a scruffy 1970s Theo!!
With mud up, always mud splattered.
(44:36):
Exactly.
Hey, listen, it's lovely talking to you.
Lovely to see you...
I feel that I have talked at you again!
That's the point.
I like it.
Thank you very much for your time.
No worries!
And the voice held out!
The voice held out and
it's that time of year.
Have a very merry Christmas
and a very happy New Year.
Cheers Theo, bye!
(44:59):
Bye!
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