January 30, 2024 • 31 mins
Michelle lives with Dyscalculia and limited hand dexterity. During this episode, Michelle shares her experience identifying and supporting children with learning challenges and what she wishes people knew when interacting with a person who has a learning disability.
#EmbraceTheDifference #LifeWithDisabilities #StrengthInStruggle
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You candid conversations that might just change how you look at the world.
Let's bridge cultures, transcend borders, and build a global family of change makers.
Welcome to if by chance.
(00:21):
This calcula is a word I struggle to say.
But Michelle has struggled with this learning disability her whole life.
And if we're honest, we all have something we're not great at.
In this episode, Michelle shares her experience and what she wishes people knew when
interacting with a person who has a learning disability.
(00:44):
I blog about my life with a learning disability, and I also have my photography as well.
And I work in a school for students that have disability, some who don't.
And I work as a parent educator or teacher's aide.
And I also contract with another group, all abilities media.
And in terms of the learning disabilities that you deal with, can you tell me a little bit
(01:12):
about that?
Sure.
I have dyscalculia, a math learning disability where it affects my ability to be able to do
math.
My brain is just not wired to do that.
But it also goes beyond just a math class.
I confuse my right for my left, and directional concepts such as east, south and west are
(01:33):
really difficult for me.
I also have visual perception issues, but that is in my brain as well, not in my eyes.
And it affects more like my eye hand coordination, my reaction time, and I have limited
hand dexterity in both of my hands, and that'll affect my small motor skill, my fine motor
skills, such as unlocking doors, grasping objects, using the pincher grasp, that sort of
(01:58):
thing.
Things will fall into my hands.
And when I didn't get that diagnosis till I was an adult, and then all of a sudden
everything just kind of came together.
I'm like, oh, that's why I drop things so much.
And it just all kind of comes to one source of having the learning disability.
Wow.
So was that a relief?
Did you think that there was something else going on?
(02:20):
We always knew what was going on because I was diagnosed when I was in kindergarten and it
was just an umbrella term.
We just said, oh, you have a learning disability.
And a lot of people were familiar, like, with dyslexia, and they didn't call it
dyscalculia.
However, they knew I wasn't going to be a mathematician around the time I was five, but
(02:40):
they didn't know about the hand dexterity as much, and they did know about the visual
perception.
That was something that they worked on as well.
So my understanding was dyslexia.
And I always have trouble saying the name of the disability that you said dyscalculate that
one.
Are they not two separate things or are they interrelated?
(03:04):
They're both learning disabilities, but they're two different types.
Now, you can have dyslexia and dyscalculia together.
I mean, sometimes we can have a variety of different kinds, but they're two totally
separate conditions.
Because I'm generally a good reader, I have reading comprehension issues, but I can tell
(03:24):
what the words are.
I don't have a lot of language based problems.
Any of the speech stuff that happened was because my ears were clogged when I was young.
I had speech therapy that was cleared up by the time I was in fifth grade.
So I can hear how words are, how they're pronounced.
I don't generally misuse words, but they are two very separate things.
(03:47):
Dyscalculia, or dyscalculia, depending on how you pronounce it, is more of a math based
one.
And I don't read numbers backwards, but my brain, for some reason, it just can't forget
steps of the problem.
I don't know all my addition, subtraction, multiplication facts.
I can't read the face of a clock.
(04:07):
I can tell you what the numbers are and where the handles and the little lines are, but
other than that, it doesn't comprehend to me.
So I use a digital watch.
It can be hard with budgeting.
It can also be really difficult with just how much do you tip somebody.
That's a lot of the math stuff.
But as I said before, directional concepts are difficult and also confused my right from my
(04:32):
left, which I always thought.
Was related to dyslexia, for some reason.
I had no idea that that was also involved in dyscalculia.
So what was, I don't know if.
You can remember back this far, but what was kindergarten like for you or early school?
(04:53):
Kindergarten was really difficult for me.
I was an only child for 13 years, so I didn't have a lot of social skills, and I certainly
struggled academically.
So I went in and I really struggled to keep up with my peers, and I struggled to keep up in
the classroom.
I can remember I would get a dot to dot page.
(05:15):
I thought, oh, I did perfect, and I get it turned in and it wasn't done correctly, and I
didn't understand that.
I struggled with counting.
I struggled with tying my shoes.
I didn't learn how to tie them until third grade.
And my preschool teacher thought that there was definitely something going on because I had
(05:36):
difficulty when I was in preschool as well.
But I was my parents first child, so they thought, okay, we'll just send her to school.
She'll catch up.
She's a normal kid from what we can see and for what they knew and I didn't.
And that's when I had a very good teacher that picked up on that and recommended to my
parents about getting tested for a learning disability.
(05:58):
And what changed for you after that?
Well, I had to repeat kindergarten the following year at a different school.
In our district, it was still a public school.
It was really difficult going back and repeating that grade, but also I had to do specialty
instruction where we really worked on having the disability and things that I could do.
(06:21):
And I can just remember it was really frustrating in the beginning.
I just thought that life was always going to be really hard and if I just didn't have my
disability and it would just be perfect if it just went away and it didn't go away.
But things did get better for me eventually.
After using all those specialty services with the classes and having accommodations, I was
(06:45):
able to be put into regular ed classes.
In the beginning it was just reading.
And then we did science and social studies.
And by the time I was in high school, I was in all regular ed classes except for math.
And we had a resource room where I could get support with my work socially.
It was really difficult, though.
(07:05):
I went to a small school district that didn't really value university and my disability
made me stick out like a sore thumb.
And the bullying started pretty early.
In the beginning it wasn't as bad, but as I progressed throughout school, it got easier
academically but really harder socially for me.
(07:26):
So did it feel like for all those years everybody was focusing on your weaknesses and not
your strengths?
I felt like that was what a lot of people focused on because if I would go into the
classroom, I would be really frustrated, especially during the elementary school years
where everything's rote memory and when you struggle with trying to remember a lot with
(07:49):
rote memory, that was hard.
And my handwriting was never great.
And I had a teacher that put a w on my report card indicating weakness for my.
Yeah.
And I had a teacher that I was coloring a map of the United States.
I thought, oh, I'm doing really good.
He held up my picture in front of everybody and said, does this look like she's doing her
(08:12):
best?
And my parents advocated for me.
Yes, they went to the school and then I had some other ones that were not so great too.
I can remember I was in a music class and the teacher had an idea, oh, we're going to teach
everybody how to play the keyboard.
But then other kids who are really good at music are going to teach everybody else how to
(08:34):
play, and it didn't really work that well.
And I had to get up in front of everybody to play like everybody did.
And the teacher sat and screamed at me in front of everybody because I couldn't do what
they wanted me to do.
But I think the worst had to be, too, is whenever I was in high school and I knew I wanted
(08:55):
to go to college, I was afraid to go in.
And my learning support teacher told me, I don't think you can handle going to college
because of your disability.
Why don't you go to a trade school?
That's such a classic.
And I have nothing against trade school.
Like, while you're in school, if you want to go and you want to do that, great.
But nothing there interested me.
(09:15):
So I decided I'm going to go on to college.
We have a federal program called office for vocational rehabilitation.
And they pay for testing.
They paid for college.
I was able to graduate debt free, but in order to get their services back in that time, we
had to get tested all over for a learning disability.
And test taking has never been my number one thing.
(09:37):
For me, it's always been a struggle, my parents and I, and we spent a lot of time studying,
and sometimes I didn't do well, even if I'd really worked hard.
And sure enough, the testing didn't come back very positive.
I had a lot of low scores in a lot of areas, and the psychiatrist put, most likely won't go
beyond community college.
And then later put after I went through a school and I thought, well, maybe I want to give
(10:01):
grad school a try.
And that didn't work out, but to get the accommodations once again.
And they said, well, you can't write news reports or you can't do all this stuff because
they asked me what I wanted to do.
And I find it kind of funny.
This morning I sent a check to the bank for an article that I wrote for a newspaper.
(10:24):
And I work at another agency where we work on how to do news reports in writing and things
like that.
And a lot of people, even when I got in school, people really focused on what the negatives
were saying.
Disability accommodations are cheating.
I had another professor and said I'd have limited job choices.
And it just was a lot of focus on what I couldn't do, rather on what am I good at?
(10:51):
What can I do?
And is that attitude the reason why you're still working in schools?
Yes, I want to be the voice that tells them that they can do it.
And I love being able to go in, especially working with students who have learning
disabilities, because sometimes listening to them is like hearing and reporting myself at
(11:12):
their age.
I hate my disability.
I wish I didn't have it.
And I get to be that voice that tells them it's not a bad thing to have a disability and I
have a disability.
And this is how you can advocate for yourself.
And a lot of times we'll take a really scared kid that doesn't know how to ask for help,
and I get to show them how you ask for those services, and they're not afraid anymore, and
(11:37):
they're empowered to be able to ask for support services.
That's so fantastic.
I'm kind of scared to ask this question.
Do you think schools have really improved since you were first there?
I think they definitely have improved on doing transition services, on what they can do
(11:59):
outside of school.
We start those programs when they're a lot younger.
I think sometimes a lot of students struggle when they don't have straight support service
classes in the area that they really struggle with.
And I think we have a lot of students that are really struggling in some of these basic
classes because it's not tailored to their level.
(12:21):
It's tailored to a general level of everybody, but not them.
And usually I'm getting pretty good at going in and finding out the kid that can't read,
because sometimes we'll see behavior problems and we think, oh, that's just a bad kid.
Then you go up and you talk to them and you're like, do you need help?
(12:42):
Do you want me to read this test to you?
And the kid will say, yeah, could you do that?
And if you read it to them, usually they'll give you the correct answer.
Sometimes they don't.
And then it's like, oh, the light bulb goes off.
That kid can't read.
That's why they're acting out in class.
So I think it's harder when we just put them in a classroom and we expect them to perform
(13:03):
at the level that every other basic kid can do.
Can you give me some practical tips on how someone might go about identifying where a child
is struggling without making them feel lesser?
Definitely.
I think some of the ways that we can do that is just talking with the teacher, talking with
(13:26):
another professional that might observe that.
And when we find out that maybe a child does have a disability, it's explaining it in
simple, age appropriate terms that are in a positive way.
I can remember my parents talking to me saying, you have a learning disability, you learn
differently.
And hearing, that was a lot better than a lot of my peers who were telling me that I wasn't
(13:48):
smart and just giving me other diagnosis that was definitely not accurate.
But I think it needs to be also in positive terms, too realistic and honest, but also in
positive.
For example, anytime I had an idea of what I wanted to do when I went to school, my mom
went to the meeting and she was honest and said, okay, michelle wants to do this.
(14:12):
And the teacher would say, okay, she's going to have to take some of these classes.
She might have to take a math or a science.
But sometimes it was just finding the right programs and just being that supportive voice
that you can still have the things that you want, you can still study what you want to do.
Sometimes we just have to find a different way around it.
(14:33):
And tell me about your art.
My art?
Yes.
I love photography.
I am not able to drive because of the visual perception, so I get that chance to bring out
details and flowers that other people will miss.
I'll be in the car with my husband and I'll say, oh, did you see that?
And my husband will be like, I'm driving.
I'll have that chance to go back and take that picture of a flower if I'm on a walk.
(14:56):
And if I was in the car, that's something that I wouldn't notice, and I couldn't take the
picture of it.
So that is one of the things that I do.
I have submitted my photos for magazines before and have them published there.
I also have them on my blog, on my store for the prints, and I've also had them in some
(15:17):
exhibits as well.
So what is your favorite thing of all the things that you do?
I think my favorite thing is writing.
I love to write.
It's always been really a source of healing for me.
That was the first talent we figured out that I could do whenever I was young.
I can remember I wrote a story about a dinosaur, and my dad read and said, this is pretty
good.
(15:37):
And that just encouraged me to write.
And it was really healing because it gave me a voice.
There might have been things that I couldn't say to somebody's face or say out loud because
I would hurt somebody's feelings, but I had that voice to be able to express how I felt
when somebody said something that was unkind or just anything that was going on that was
(15:59):
really stressing me out.
Writing gave me that voice, and I can remember I was in an adult writing group and I had a
friend that told me, wow, you really should write about having a learning disability.
I said, I don't know.
This is kind of personal.
Don't know how much I want to write about it.
And I think I wrote some bad poetry and some other really terrible things.
(16:21):
And once I finally got that courage to write about my struggle with limited hand dexterity
and opening up locks, it was really healing for me.
And I just wanted to write more about having that and share my experience.
And that's when I got more articles published.
And I also started my own blog.
(16:41):
So how old were you when you discovered the writing?
I had to be seven or eight, somewhere around that, maybe a little bit younger, because I
can remember making books out of wrapping paper when I was little.
And that wasn't encouraged at school or you just didn't have the opportunity for that
(17:04):
outlet at that time, I think.
It was slightly encouraged, but it wasn't something that they had.
When I was very young, I think we were trying to get me to be a good reader.
I was already pretty good at that.
I just needed a little bit of extra help.
I can remember we had fifth graders that came into my second time at kindergarten where
(17:24):
they paired us up, and one of the things we wrote about was a tree.
She drew the pictures and I told a story, and I didn't end up writing stories on the
computer, but there was a first grade class that I was in, and we dressed up worth our
Thanksgiving celebration.
One of the captions was, students wrote Thanksgiving stories on the computer.
(17:49):
And then once they figured out I liked to write, that was something that they definitely
could see that I had that potential in there.
And also the speaking.
That was one thing they really saw when I was young was that I could speak and that I read
with expression.
That was one of the notes that my learning support teacher put on one of my reports to my
parents to please encourage me to keep on reading because I read with such expression.
(18:14):
With the introduction of computers and innovation in technology, how has that changed
things?
It's a lot easier with the handwriting.
I wish they would have had that when I was a lot younger.
It would have solved a lot of problems.
Once I finally learned how to type, it took me a full semester, but once I was able to turn
(18:35):
documents in that were typed, people knew what I was saying and a lot of people would tell
me, oh, you need to improve your handwriting.
They called that a character flaw.
And I can remember I'd had a peer that told me, well, you have messy handwriting and you
want to be a writer, you have to learn to be neat.
And I'm yet to have an editor say, I want a handwritten piece done.
(19:00):
And I think that has helped.
I think also things such as Grammarly, because I definitely need to have that.
I mean, I'm good with knowing what I want to say, expressing my ideas, but just sometimes
grammar can be that little part that can be difficult for me.
So having that, having other soft flare with just checking my work, having somebody else do
(19:22):
that is also helpful too.
But it brought up a new world with that and also meeting other people that had a disability
like mine.
Mostly when I went to school, I was the only one in learning support that really struggled
with math.
Most of my other peers struggled with reading and behavior issues, and I got to meet other
people that have my disability and having that connection.
(19:44):
And that wouldn't have been possible without a good computer.
So are there any other tools that you'd recommend?
Yes.
For limited hand dexterity, I use an electric can opener because I can't use a manual one.
I also have jar openers that I use because my hands just can't open up some tight jars.
(20:06):
And we have a great one that'll do that.
And those are things that help me out, even sometimes simple things.
If I'm reading with my students and I'm having trouble visual track like on a piece of
paper, one of the things we would do when the time I was young is I'd have a piece of paper
underneath it.
And sometimes my students will ask me what I'm doing and I would say, oh, this just helps
(20:27):
me keep visual track, keeps things in order for me.
You can also use a note card with that too.
I also use a tip calculator whenever I'm out, and it helps me know what tip that I'm
supposed to give to somebody else.
And if I do have my debit card or credit, that can be harder for me because I'll spend more
(20:47):
money because it's more of an abstract concept.
But if I have $20, I can go into the store and I have an idea of a range of what I'm
spending, and I can visualize the dollars, the coins, and it's always a surprise when I get
to the register, but at least I have more of an idea of what I'm doing.
And other than Grammarly, are there any.
(21:09):
Tools and technology that you would recommend?
I do Hemingway app as well for myself.
It just helps me with that, with writing the Hemingway editor.
But there's also other tools for people with disabilities that they can use communication
devices with computers.
A lot of the iPads have that as well, and it just helps.
(21:33):
And I also use my Fitbit for another digital watch because I can't tell time on an analog
clock, which is we don't see a lot of them now, but everything is generally digital.
But that also has been real help, too.
I just want to go back to community.
Can you tell me what it's meant for you and if it's created any opportunities?
(21:55):
It has definitely created a lot of opportunities just to be able to connect with people and
talk, because sometimes that's validating.
I might say, oh, yeah, I can't read the face of a clock.
And a friend that has the same disability goes, hey, I know what that's like.
I have the same thing.
So I think it's creating that community of people, whether it's just with a meeting,
(22:16):
journaling group, or sometimes just if you're meeting up with somebody that, you know has a
disability.
And it also gives me a chance to be able to share my story and listen to other people's
stories as well.
Do you feel that it's helpful for.
People to understand that you have a disability, or what would you suggest that people do
(22:41):
if they have an inkling that there's something different about you, but they don't really
know how to approach it?
I think it's just treating somebody the way that you'd want to be treated.
It's hard because sometimes people look at me and they can't see the disability, but they
can see some of the other things that might come out.
(23:03):
I know I was in the grocery store a couple of months ago, and I was unloading my cart, and
sometimes my husband will go in with me if it's a really crowded day, because it can be
hard for me to manage a cart and unloading things.
But it was a day that there wasn't a lot of people that were around.
And I'm not loading my cart, having a good day, and I had a woman that came up to me behind
(23:26):
me, and she started talking with me, and then she starts unloading my cart.
I'm like, oh, okay, I'll.
Thank you.
I thought, oh, it's odd, but that's nice.
Someone's helping me.
And she goes, after I thanked her, oh, I like to help people, and you look like you really
needed it.
And to me, I was just shocked.
(23:49):
I was like, oh.
Because usually people don't question that because they can't see my inability to do math.
But I think a lot of times it's asking a person, oh, do you need help with that?
If it looks like that, they might need assistance, and some people might say, yes, I could
definitely use help.
And other people can say, oh, I have it.
(24:12):
And I think of all the other people that I did help in the grocery store sometimes begin
elderly women that are really tiny, and they'll say, can you help me reach the beans on the
top shelf?
And sure enough, they'll do that if I can help them out and opening the door up to people.
But I think it's just treating somebody how you'd want to be treated.
(24:32):
If you already know me, or if you are getting to know me, just maybe ask, oh, I noticed
this.
Do you need help with this?
And I think that goes a long way.
So do you feel that lady who helped you overstepped?
She overstepped.
I think in some ways it was just very surprising.
(24:52):
I was just surprised by that.
But I had that.
So it's one of those things.
I'm sure she had good intentions, but I wish she would have asked, do you need help with
that?
Is there anything else that you would like people to know about what it's like to have a
disability?
Sure.
(25:13):
I think life with a disability definitely is something that I really struggled with
whenever I was young, and I thought that no good can come out of it.
But when you have a disability, it's all right and good does come out of it, and you just
have to find out what you want to do and be able to find a way to do it.
(25:34):
And sometimes success comes in a different package than you expected, but oftentimes it
seems better.
And do you think it would be.
Better if we started focusing on our strengths more than our weaknesses?
Yes.
What do you think that balance should be?
I think we should definitely focus on what somebody is good at, because sometimes that can
(25:58):
even be used to motivate people.
If someone likes to write, that can be a good tool to say, okay, maybe you can do a job
with writing.
This is what you need to do.
And be honest and be okay if you want to go to college.
This is some of the requirements that I know that you can do that.
And also look into programs, too, when something may not work out.
(26:19):
For me, if you had put me in an algebra class or even anything that involved math, it was
really difficult for me.
What I did was I took a philosophy based math course, and I didn't do well in the class,
but I was able to pass.
And I think it's finding a way using somebody's strengths, but sometimes you can't get
(26:40):
around it.
I couldn't get around having to do some kind of math or some kind of science, but it's
finding what's going to work for that person and definitely focusing on what you're good
at, because I find that if I focus on what I'm good at, it's more empowering than sitting
around and thinking, oh, I can't do math or I can't drive.
Can you tell me more about how philosophy and maths fits together?
(27:05):
Yes.
A lot of times people who take these courses are going to be lawyers.
And that was definitely not something that was going to be a goal path for me.
But we would do fallacies, which I could do that.
They had, like, charts, they had a lot of statements that if you said this, then that meant
(27:25):
that.
And it was very confusing.
It was definitely difficult, but the teacher was wonderful.
So was it a little bit like Sherlock Holmes?
A little bit, yeah, it was, because you were trying to do applied logic to figuring out
problems, and it was really a lot of logical things, conditional statements.
(27:53):
And the professor told us, I don't expect some of you to know which to remember all these
things when you leave, but what I want you to do is when you're hearing something and
something doesn't sound right to stop and to think about it, does this make sense, or is
this really how it is?
(28:15):
And that class does open up your eyes to, okay, does this make sense?
Is this what is really going on?
And that was his whole goal.
So, given your experiences, is your blog.
A platform to get your message out in this space and to make the world a little bit better
(28:36):
for people with disabilities?
Yes, I definitely want to get my story out, but I also want to be able to connect with
other people that have disabilities.
And I have a forum on my blog where people with disabilities can connect with each other.
That's really nice.
How long has that been going for?
That has been going on since this summer.
And what kind of people do you find are connecting on the forum?
(29:00):
I get some people that have disabilities, and I also get people that work with individuals
with disabilities as well.
We're still in the early stages of it, though.
So are you looking to connect with more people that have had experiences similar to you?
Yes, definitely.
I love that.
And I also like people that have had also different experiences as well.
(29:23):
In the disability space or just generally?
I think of the disability space, but generally is also nice, too.
But I think of the disability space, though, is where my main interest is.
Are there any last thoughts you want.
To leave us with?
Just want to encourage people with disabilities or who don't have them not to give up and
to just keep focusing on what they're good at and just to remember that success may not
(29:49):
come in the package you expected, but something a lot better.
That's great advice.
Thanks, Michelle.
The world is changing at a rapid pace, and it's good to hear that some institutions are
changing too.
But are we doing enough for people who don't do well on standard measures?
Perhaps it's not the people who are wrong, but the measures themselves instead.
(30:15):
Maybe we should do as Michelle suggests, just keep focusing on what you're good at, and
remember that success may not come in the package you're expecting.
Now, dear listener, it's your turn.
Have you got something to add to the conversation?
Then get in touch via the links in the show notes.
(30:37):
Whether you have questions, a message of support, or resources that you think might help,
we'd love to hear from you.
And if by chance you know someone with a story that will inspire others, be sure to let us
know.
Your contributions help turn inspiration into action, drive positive change, and make life
just that little bit better.
(30:59):
And if this conversation inspired you to expand your worldview, head to hellohuman Global
to join the conversation.
You candid conversations that might just change how you look at the world.
Let's bridge cultures, transcend borders, and build a global family of change makers.
Welcome to if by chance.
(00:21):
This calcula is a word I struggle to say.
But Michelle has struggled with this learning disability her whole life.
And if we're honest, we all have something we're not great at.
In this episode, Michelle shares her experience and what she wishes people knew when
interacting with a person who has a learning disability.
(00:44):
I blog about my life with a learning disability, and I also have my photography as well.
And I work in a school for students that have disability, some who don't.
And I work as a parent educator or teacher's aide.
And I also contract with another group, all abilities media.
And in terms of the learning disabilities that you deal with, can you tell me a little bit
(01:12):
about that?
Sure.
I have dyscalculia, a math learning disability where it affects my ability to be able to do
math.
My brain is just not wired to do that.
But it also goes beyond just a math class.
I confuse my right for my left, and directional concepts such as east, south and west are
(01:33):
really difficult for me.
I also have visual perception issues, but that is in my brain as well, not in my eyes.
And it affects more like my eye hand coordination, my reaction time, and I have limited
hand dexterity in both of my hands, and that'll affect my small motor skill, my fine motor
skills, such as unlocking doors, grasping objects, using the pincher grasp, that sort of
(01:58):
thing.
Things will fall into my hands.
And when I didn't get that diagnosis till I was an adult, and then all of a sudden
everything just kind of came together.
I'm like, oh, that's why I drop things so much.
And it just all kind of comes to one source of having the learning disability.
Wow.
So was that a relief?
Did you think that there was something else going on?
(02:20):
We always knew what was going on because I was diagnosed when I was in kindergarten and it
was just an umbrella term.
We just said, oh, you have a learning disability.
And a lot of people were familiar, like, with dyslexia, and they didn't call it
dyscalculia.
However, they knew I wasn't going to be a mathematician around the time I was five, but
(02:40):
they didn't know about the hand dexterity as much, and they did know about the visual
perception.
That was something that they worked on as well.
So my understanding was dyslexia.
And I always have trouble saying the name of the disability that you said dyscalculate that
one.
Are they not two separate things or are they interrelated?
(03:04):
They're both learning disabilities, but they're two different types.
Now, you can have dyslexia and dyscalculia together.
I mean, sometimes we can have a variety of different kinds, but they're two totally
separate conditions.
Because I'm generally a good reader, I have reading comprehension issues, but I can tell
(03:24):
what the words are.
I don't have a lot of language based problems.
Any of the speech stuff that happened was because my ears were clogged when I was young.
I had speech therapy that was cleared up by the time I was in fifth grade.
So I can hear how words are, how they're pronounced.
I don't generally misuse words, but they are two very separate things.
(03:47):
Dyscalculia, or dyscalculia, depending on how you pronounce it, is more of a math based
one.
And I don't read numbers backwards, but my brain, for some reason, it just can't forget
steps of the problem.
I don't know all my addition, subtraction, multiplication facts.
I can't read the face of a clock.
(04:07):
I can tell you what the numbers are and where the handles and the little lines are, but
other than that, it doesn't comprehend to me.
So I use a digital watch.
It can be hard with budgeting.
It can also be really difficult with just how much do you tip somebody.
That's a lot of the math stuff.
But as I said before, directional concepts are difficult and also confused my right from my
(04:32):
left, which I always thought.
Was related to dyslexia, for some reason.
I had no idea that that was also involved in dyscalculia.
So what was, I don't know if.
You can remember back this far, but what was kindergarten like for you or early school?
(04:53):
Kindergarten was really difficult for me.
I was an only child for 13 years, so I didn't have a lot of social skills, and I certainly
struggled academically.
So I went in and I really struggled to keep up with my peers, and I struggled to keep up in
the classroom.
I can remember I would get a dot to dot page.
(05:15):
I thought, oh, I did perfect, and I get it turned in and it wasn't done correctly, and I
didn't understand that.
I struggled with counting.
I struggled with tying my shoes.
I didn't learn how to tie them until third grade.
And my preschool teacher thought that there was definitely something going on because I had
(05:36):
difficulty when I was in preschool as well.
But I was my parents first child, so they thought, okay, we'll just send her to school.
She'll catch up.
She's a normal kid from what we can see and for what they knew and I didn't.
And that's when I had a very good teacher that picked up on that and recommended to my
parents about getting tested for a learning disability.
(05:58):
And what changed for you after that?
Well, I had to repeat kindergarten the following year at a different school.
In our district, it was still a public school.
It was really difficult going back and repeating that grade, but also I had to do specialty
instruction where we really worked on having the disability and things that I could do.
(06:21):
And I can just remember it was really frustrating in the beginning.
I just thought that life was always going to be really hard and if I just didn't have my
disability and it would just be perfect if it just went away and it didn't go away.
But things did get better for me eventually.
After using all those specialty services with the classes and having accommodations, I was
(06:45):
able to be put into regular ed classes.
In the beginning it was just reading.
And then we did science and social studies.
And by the time I was in high school, I was in all regular ed classes except for math.
And we had a resource room where I could get support with my work socially.
It was really difficult, though.
(07:05):
I went to a small school district that didn't really value university and my disability
made me stick out like a sore thumb.
And the bullying started pretty early.
In the beginning it wasn't as bad, but as I progressed throughout school, it got easier
academically but really harder socially for me.
(07:26):
So did it feel like for all those years everybody was focusing on your weaknesses and not
your strengths?
I felt like that was what a lot of people focused on because if I would go into the
classroom, I would be really frustrated, especially during the elementary school years
where everything's rote memory and when you struggle with trying to remember a lot with
(07:49):
rote memory, that was hard.
And my handwriting was never great.
And I had a teacher that put a w on my report card indicating weakness for my.
Yeah.
And I had a teacher that I was coloring a map of the United States.
I thought, oh, I'm doing really good.
He held up my picture in front of everybody and said, does this look like she's doing her
(08:12):
best?
And my parents advocated for me.
Yes, they went to the school and then I had some other ones that were not so great too.
I can remember I was in a music class and the teacher had an idea, oh, we're going to teach
everybody how to play the keyboard.
But then other kids who are really good at music are going to teach everybody else how to
(08:34):
play, and it didn't really work that well.
And I had to get up in front of everybody to play like everybody did.
And the teacher sat and screamed at me in front of everybody because I couldn't do what
they wanted me to do.
But I think the worst had to be, too, is whenever I was in high school and I knew I wanted
(08:55):
to go to college, I was afraid to go in.
And my learning support teacher told me, I don't think you can handle going to college
because of your disability.
Why don't you go to a trade school?
That's such a classic.
And I have nothing against trade school.
Like, while you're in school, if you want to go and you want to do that, great.
But nothing there interested me.
(09:15):
So I decided I'm going to go on to college.
We have a federal program called office for vocational rehabilitation.
And they pay for testing.
They paid for college.
I was able to graduate debt free, but in order to get their services back in that time, we
had to get tested all over for a learning disability.
And test taking has never been my number one thing.
(09:37):
For me, it's always been a struggle, my parents and I, and we spent a lot of time studying,
and sometimes I didn't do well, even if I'd really worked hard.
And sure enough, the testing didn't come back very positive.
I had a lot of low scores in a lot of areas, and the psychiatrist put, most likely won't go
beyond community college.
And then later put after I went through a school and I thought, well, maybe I want to give
(10:01):
grad school a try.
And that didn't work out, but to get the accommodations once again.
And they said, well, you can't write news reports or you can't do all this stuff because
they asked me what I wanted to do.
And I find it kind of funny.
This morning I sent a check to the bank for an article that I wrote for a newspaper.
(10:24):
And I work at another agency where we work on how to do news reports in writing and things
like that.
And a lot of people, even when I got in school, people really focused on what the negatives
were saying.
Disability accommodations are cheating.
I had another professor and said I'd have limited job choices.
And it just was a lot of focus on what I couldn't do, rather on what am I good at?
(10:51):
What can I do?
And is that attitude the reason why you're still working in schools?
Yes, I want to be the voice that tells them that they can do it.
And I love being able to go in, especially working with students who have learning
disabilities, because sometimes listening to them is like hearing and reporting myself at
(11:12):
their age.
I hate my disability.
I wish I didn't have it.
And I get to be that voice that tells them it's not a bad thing to have a disability and I
have a disability.
And this is how you can advocate for yourself.
And a lot of times we'll take a really scared kid that doesn't know how to ask for help,
and I get to show them how you ask for those services, and they're not afraid anymore, and
(11:37):
they're empowered to be able to ask for support services.
That's so fantastic.
I'm kind of scared to ask this question.
Do you think schools have really improved since you were first there?
I think they definitely have improved on doing transition services, on what they can do
(11:59):
outside of school.
We start those programs when they're a lot younger.
I think sometimes a lot of students struggle when they don't have straight support service
classes in the area that they really struggle with.
And I think we have a lot of students that are really struggling in some of these basic
classes because it's not tailored to their level.
(12:21):
It's tailored to a general level of everybody, but not them.
And usually I'm getting pretty good at going in and finding out the kid that can't read,
because sometimes we'll see behavior problems and we think, oh, that's just a bad kid.
Then you go up and you talk to them and you're like, do you need help?
(12:42):
Do you want me to read this test to you?
And the kid will say, yeah, could you do that?
And if you read it to them, usually they'll give you the correct answer.
Sometimes they don't.
And then it's like, oh, the light bulb goes off.
That kid can't read.
That's why they're acting out in class.
So I think it's harder when we just put them in a classroom and we expect them to perform
(13:03):
at the level that every other basic kid can do.
Can you give me some practical tips on how someone might go about identifying where a child
is struggling without making them feel lesser?
Definitely.
I think some of the ways that we can do that is just talking with the teacher, talking with
(13:26):
another professional that might observe that.
And when we find out that maybe a child does have a disability, it's explaining it in
simple, age appropriate terms that are in a positive way.
I can remember my parents talking to me saying, you have a learning disability, you learn
differently.
And hearing, that was a lot better than a lot of my peers who were telling me that I wasn't
(13:48):
smart and just giving me other diagnosis that was definitely not accurate.
But I think it needs to be also in positive terms, too realistic and honest, but also in
positive.
For example, anytime I had an idea of what I wanted to do when I went to school, my mom
went to the meeting and she was honest and said, okay, michelle wants to do this.
(14:12):
And the teacher would say, okay, she's going to have to take some of these classes.
She might have to take a math or a science.
But sometimes it was just finding the right programs and just being that supportive voice
that you can still have the things that you want, you can still study what you want to do.
Sometimes we just have to find a different way around it.
(14:33):
And tell me about your art.
My art?
Yes.
I love photography.
I am not able to drive because of the visual perception, so I get that chance to bring out
details and flowers that other people will miss.
I'll be in the car with my husband and I'll say, oh, did you see that?
And my husband will be like, I'm driving.
I'll have that chance to go back and take that picture of a flower if I'm on a walk.
(14:56):
And if I was in the car, that's something that I wouldn't notice, and I couldn't take the
picture of it.
So that is one of the things that I do.
I have submitted my photos for magazines before and have them published there.
I also have them on my blog, on my store for the prints, and I've also had them in some
(15:17):
exhibits as well.
So what is your favorite thing of all the things that you do?
I think my favorite thing is writing.
I love to write.
It's always been really a source of healing for me.
That was the first talent we figured out that I could do whenever I was young.
I can remember I wrote a story about a dinosaur, and my dad read and said, this is pretty
good.
(15:37):
And that just encouraged me to write.
And it was really healing because it gave me a voice.
There might have been things that I couldn't say to somebody's face or say out loud because
I would hurt somebody's feelings, but I had that voice to be able to express how I felt
when somebody said something that was unkind or just anything that was going on that was
(15:59):
really stressing me out.
Writing gave me that voice, and I can remember I was in an adult writing group and I had a
friend that told me, wow, you really should write about having a learning disability.
I said, I don't know.
This is kind of personal.
Don't know how much I want to write about it.
And I think I wrote some bad poetry and some other really terrible things.
(16:21):
And once I finally got that courage to write about my struggle with limited hand dexterity
and opening up locks, it was really healing for me.
And I just wanted to write more about having that and share my experience.
And that's when I got more articles published.
And I also started my own blog.
(16:41):
So how old were you when you discovered the writing?
I had to be seven or eight, somewhere around that, maybe a little bit younger, because I
can remember making books out of wrapping paper when I was little.
And that wasn't encouraged at school or you just didn't have the opportunity for that
(17:04):
outlet at that time, I think.
It was slightly encouraged, but it wasn't something that they had.
When I was very young, I think we were trying to get me to be a good reader.
I was already pretty good at that.
I just needed a little bit of extra help.
I can remember we had fifth graders that came into my second time at kindergarten where
(17:24):
they paired us up, and one of the things we wrote about was a tree.
She drew the pictures and I told a story, and I didn't end up writing stories on the
computer, but there was a first grade class that I was in, and we dressed up worth our
Thanksgiving celebration.
One of the captions was, students wrote Thanksgiving stories on the computer.
(17:49):
And then once they figured out I liked to write, that was something that they definitely
could see that I had that potential in there.
And also the speaking.
That was one thing they really saw when I was young was that I could speak and that I read
with expression.
That was one of the notes that my learning support teacher put on one of my reports to my
parents to please encourage me to keep on reading because I read with such expression.
(18:14):
With the introduction of computers and innovation in technology, how has that changed
things?
It's a lot easier with the handwriting.
I wish they would have had that when I was a lot younger.
It would have solved a lot of problems.
Once I finally learned how to type, it took me a full semester, but once I was able to turn
(18:35):
documents in that were typed, people knew what I was saying and a lot of people would tell
me, oh, you need to improve your handwriting.
They called that a character flaw.
And I can remember I'd had a peer that told me, well, you have messy handwriting and you
want to be a writer, you have to learn to be neat.
And I'm yet to have an editor say, I want a handwritten piece done.
(19:00):
And I think that has helped.
I think also things such as Grammarly, because I definitely need to have that.
I mean, I'm good with knowing what I want to say, expressing my ideas, but just sometimes
grammar can be that little part that can be difficult for me.
So having that, having other soft flare with just checking my work, having somebody else do
(19:22):
that is also helpful too.
But it brought up a new world with that and also meeting other people that had a disability
like mine.
Mostly when I went to school, I was the only one in learning support that really struggled
with math.
Most of my other peers struggled with reading and behavior issues, and I got to meet other
people that have my disability and having that connection.
(19:44):
And that wouldn't have been possible without a good computer.
So are there any other tools that you'd recommend?
Yes.
For limited hand dexterity, I use an electric can opener because I can't use a manual one.
I also have jar openers that I use because my hands just can't open up some tight jars.
(20:06):
And we have a great one that'll do that.
And those are things that help me out, even sometimes simple things.
If I'm reading with my students and I'm having trouble visual track like on a piece of
paper, one of the things we would do when the time I was young is I'd have a piece of paper
underneath it.
And sometimes my students will ask me what I'm doing and I would say, oh, this just helps
(20:27):
me keep visual track, keeps things in order for me.
You can also use a note card with that too.
I also use a tip calculator whenever I'm out, and it helps me know what tip that I'm
supposed to give to somebody else.
And if I do have my debit card or credit, that can be harder for me because I'll spend more
(20:47):
money because it's more of an abstract concept.
But if I have $20, I can go into the store and I have an idea of a range of what I'm
spending, and I can visualize the dollars, the coins, and it's always a surprise when I get
to the register, but at least I have more of an idea of what I'm doing.
And other than Grammarly, are there any.
(21:09):
Tools and technology that you would recommend?
I do Hemingway app as well for myself.
It just helps me with that, with writing the Hemingway editor.
But there's also other tools for people with disabilities that they can use communication
devices with computers.
A lot of the iPads have that as well, and it just helps.
(21:33):
And I also use my Fitbit for another digital watch because I can't tell time on an analog
clock, which is we don't see a lot of them now, but everything is generally digital.
But that also has been real help, too.
I just want to go back to community.
Can you tell me what it's meant for you and if it's created any opportunities?
(21:55):
It has definitely created a lot of opportunities just to be able to connect with people and
talk, because sometimes that's validating.
I might say, oh, yeah, I can't read the face of a clock.
And a friend that has the same disability goes, hey, I know what that's like.
I have the same thing.
So I think it's creating that community of people, whether it's just with a meeting,
(22:16):
journaling group, or sometimes just if you're meeting up with somebody that, you know has a
disability.
And it also gives me a chance to be able to share my story and listen to other people's
stories as well.
Do you feel that it's helpful for.
People to understand that you have a disability, or what would you suggest that people do
(22:41):
if they have an inkling that there's something different about you, but they don't really
know how to approach it?
I think it's just treating somebody the way that you'd want to be treated.
It's hard because sometimes people look at me and they can't see the disability, but they
can see some of the other things that might come out.
(23:03):
I know I was in the grocery store a couple of months ago, and I was unloading my cart, and
sometimes my husband will go in with me if it's a really crowded day, because it can be
hard for me to manage a cart and unloading things.
But it was a day that there wasn't a lot of people that were around.
And I'm not loading my cart, having a good day, and I had a woman that came up to me behind
(23:26):
me, and she started talking with me, and then she starts unloading my cart.
I'm like, oh, okay, I'll.
Thank you.
I thought, oh, it's odd, but that's nice.
Someone's helping me.
And she goes, after I thanked her, oh, I like to help people, and you look like you really
needed it.
And to me, I was just shocked.
(23:49):
I was like, oh.
Because usually people don't question that because they can't see my inability to do math.
But I think a lot of times it's asking a person, oh, do you need help with that?
If it looks like that, they might need assistance, and some people might say, yes, I could
definitely use help.
And other people can say, oh, I have it.
(24:12):
And I think of all the other people that I did help in the grocery store sometimes begin
elderly women that are really tiny, and they'll say, can you help me reach the beans on the
top shelf?
And sure enough, they'll do that if I can help them out and opening the door up to people.
But I think it's just treating somebody how you'd want to be treated.
(24:32):
If you already know me, or if you are getting to know me, just maybe ask, oh, I noticed
this.
Do you need help with this?
And I think that goes a long way.
So do you feel that lady who helped you overstepped?
She overstepped.
I think in some ways it was just very surprising.
(24:52):
I was just surprised by that.
But I had that.
So it's one of those things.
I'm sure she had good intentions, but I wish she would have asked, do you need help with
that?
Is there anything else that you would like people to know about what it's like to have a
disability?
Sure.
(25:13):
I think life with a disability definitely is something that I really struggled with
whenever I was young, and I thought that no good can come out of it.
But when you have a disability, it's all right and good does come out of it, and you just
have to find out what you want to do and be able to find a way to do it.
(25:34):
And sometimes success comes in a different package than you expected, but oftentimes it
seems better.
And do you think it would be.
Better if we started focusing on our strengths more than our weaknesses?
Yes.
What do you think that balance should be?
I think we should definitely focus on what somebody is good at, because sometimes that can
(25:58):
even be used to motivate people.
If someone likes to write, that can be a good tool to say, okay, maybe you can do a job
with writing.
This is what you need to do.
And be honest and be okay if you want to go to college.
This is some of the requirements that I know that you can do that.
And also look into programs, too, when something may not work out.
(26:19):
For me, if you had put me in an algebra class or even anything that involved math, it was
really difficult for me.
What I did was I took a philosophy based math course, and I didn't do well in the class,
but I was able to pass.
And I think it's finding a way using somebody's strengths, but sometimes you can't get
(26:40):
around it.
I couldn't get around having to do some kind of math or some kind of science, but it's
finding what's going to work for that person and definitely focusing on what you're good
at, because I find that if I focus on what I'm good at, it's more empowering than sitting
around and thinking, oh, I can't do math or I can't drive.
Can you tell me more about how philosophy and maths fits together?
(27:05):
Yes.
A lot of times people who take these courses are going to be lawyers.
And that was definitely not something that was going to be a goal path for me.
But we would do fallacies, which I could do that.
They had, like, charts, they had a lot of statements that if you said this, then that meant
(27:25):
that.
And it was very confusing.
It was definitely difficult, but the teacher was wonderful.
So was it a little bit like Sherlock Holmes?
A little bit, yeah, it was, because you were trying to do applied logic to figuring out
problems, and it was really a lot of logical things, conditional statements.
(27:53):
And the professor told us, I don't expect some of you to know which to remember all these
things when you leave, but what I want you to do is when you're hearing something and
something doesn't sound right to stop and to think about it, does this make sense, or is
this really how it is?
(28:15):
And that class does open up your eyes to, okay, does this make sense?
Is this what is really going on?
And that was his whole goal.
So, given your experiences, is your blog.
A platform to get your message out in this space and to make the world a little bit better
(28:36):
for people with disabilities?
Yes, I definitely want to get my story out, but I also want to be able to connect with
other people that have disabilities.
And I have a forum on my blog where people with disabilities can connect with each other.
That's really nice.
How long has that been going for?
That has been going on since this summer.
And what kind of people do you find are connecting on the forum?
(29:00):
I get some people that have disabilities, and I also get people that work with individuals
with disabilities as well.
We're still in the early stages of it, though.
So are you looking to connect with more people that have had experiences similar to you?
Yes, definitely.
I love that.
And I also like people that have had also different experiences as well.
(29:23):
In the disability space or just generally?
I think of the disability space, but generally is also nice, too.
But I think of the disability space, though, is where my main interest is.
Are there any last thoughts you want.
To leave us with?
Just want to encourage people with disabilities or who don't have them not to give up and
to just keep focusing on what they're good at and just to remember that success may not
(29:49):
come in the package you expected, but something a lot better.
That's great advice.
Thanks, Michelle.
The world is changing at a rapid pace, and it's good to hear that some institutions are
changing too.
But are we doing enough for people who don't do well on standard measures?
Perhaps it's not the people who are wrong, but the measures themselves instead.
(30:15):
Maybe we should do as Michelle suggests, just keep focusing on what you're good at, and
remember that success may not come in the package you're expecting.
Now, dear listener, it's your turn.
Have you got something to add to the conversation?
Then get in touch via the links in the show notes.
(30:37):
Whether you have questions, a message of support, or resources that you think might help,
we'd love to hear from you.
And if by chance you know someone with a story that will inspire others, be sure to let us
know.
Your contributions help turn inspiration into action, drive positive change, and make life
just that little bit better.
(30:59):
And if this conversation inspired you to expand your worldview, head to hellohuman Global
to join the conversation.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.