April 15, 2025 • 38 mins
In this unedited conversation Philip Gulley, Peterson Toscano, and Sweet Miche share their personal journeys of unlearning traditional theological concepts and reflect on what makes Quakerism a meaningful path to a more authentic faith.
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Episode Transcript
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>> Peterson Toscano (00:00):
Thank you, friends. Thank you,
(00:02):
Philip, for being with us. We've been so
excited. Uh, after we read your book, we're
like, oh, uh, we're so excited to see you.
>> Philip Gulley (00:10):
Well, it's an honor to be with you both.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:14):
Please say your name how you like it to be
said. Your full name.
>> Philip Gulley (00:18):
Philip Gully.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:20):
And, uh, when somebody asks you when you meet somebody and
they meet you for the first time and they say, what do you do?
What are. What's your go to answer these days?
>> Philip Gulley (00:30):
Um, well, it depends on where I am.
If I don't want to talk to people. For
instance, if I'm on an airplane and just want some
privacy, I tell them I'm a nuclear
physicist because no one knows anything
about that, and it immediately ends the
conversations. Otherwise, I just tell
them I'm a Quaker minister. I
(00:52):
used to say rider. But then if
people immediately ask, well, what do you write?
And, well, I write a lot of things. And if
I mention a book I've written, they say, never heard of
it. And it's just too demoralizing.
So I tend to say quaker minister.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:12):
And what are some identities that you have that you like
people to know about?
>> Philip Gulley (01:18):
That I'm married, that I'm a
grandpa, that I just found out that our
youngest son and his wife are going to have twins.
I like that. That I have a lot of friends and
that I feel very fortunate in life.
Those are the things that matter to me, that are important
to me. Yeah. And I
(01:39):
have a wonderful wife. We've been married 40 years now,
and she's a librarian and is
bright and curious and fun and.
And, uh. So that's a joy.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:50):
Also, librarians are great. It's like having your own personal
Google.
>> Philip Gulley (01:54):
It's wonderful.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:59):
My husband's like that. He's a professor at a
university, and I can just randomly
muse about something out loud. I
wonder how many people fly to
Mexico every year. And I don't have to
ask him to look it up. He has to look it up, and he has
to know.
>> Philip Gulley (02:16):
Yes. Yes.
>> Sweet Miche (02:18):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:21):
Well, we're here to talk about your book Unlearning, uh, God.
And it's about unlearning, uh, the beliefs that you
inherited about God, about faith, about
theology, practice. And for
you, what was one of the most challenging beliefs
for you to unlearn, and why do you think that is?
>> Philip Gulley (02:40):
Oh, I would say I grew up Catholic. I became a
Quaker at the age of 17. For me, it was the
big three. You know, God is omnipotent,
omniscient, and Omnipresent, knows
all, is everywhere, can do
anything, uh, that nothing is beyond
God's power. But then when you look at that,
(03:00):
those uh, assertions, you begin to realize
just how unhelpful they are. Especially
as you address the question of evil. It just
doesn't hang together. Oh, so God could have
prevented the Holocaust, but God
chose not to. Well, that
doesn't seem very moral to me. So it creates
these struggles in one's mind which
(03:23):
for most people is easily dismissed by
saying, we cannot fathom the ways of
God. Well, I'm sorry, I
can fathom what is moral and what is
ethical and what I would do if I
were in a situation to stop the Holocaust. Uh,
so I don't think it is outside of our purview to
(03:43):
ask that question and to attempt to
understand that. So something has to give.
So maybe what needs to give is our understanding of
God, uh, and what we've been
taught about God.
>> Peterson Toscano (03:58):
Yeah, I remember those days
asking these questions. There are a lot of consequences.
>> Philip Gulley (04:04):
Oh yeah. And they're just so
destructive. I can't tell you as a
pastor, the number of people who come to
me and, and who've said, I
don't understand why God took my only
child. And I don't want to get in, I don't like getting
in theological arguments with people who are
grieving. That's not an appropriate time to do
(04:26):
theology. Except for
that. When you say to them, well, let's talk about
that. Is that
God's, Is that consistent with the God you've
experienced?
>> Peterson Toscano (04:39):
Um, and why is this one so
hard to unlearn?
>> Philip Gulley (04:45):
Well, I think it's because it's one of the first
things we learn, that God loves us, that God's in
control. It is a product of our deepest
need, which is to live life without
being crippled by fear or a
sense of hopelessness. And so we
posit all these powers into a divine being
(05:06):
so that we don't have to go through life
worrying that no one's in
control and that this will somehow end
up okay. I think the start of maturity is when we
realize no one is in control
except for you. And even that's a limited kind
of power. I can't do everything I
(05:26):
want, um, and that
I have to make my peace with these realities and
limitations. Mhm. Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (05:37):
You mentioned fear. And fear
seems to be that sticky substance
that can keep people from
rethinking their beliefs. Oh yeah, because
of a lot of reasons. And you talk about the angry
God. Say more about that to someone who
has grown up under that and feels the
(05:57):
weight of it and is terrified to walk away because
of all the consequences of
walking away in their mind.
>> Philip Gulley (06:04):
Yeah. Well, it's clear that fear is
probably the driving motivation in
our culture. I think that's especially obvious
now with the rise of
Donald Trump and his supporters, which, in
a way, was a
masterfully evil
(06:24):
manipulation of human
fear. It identified and
targeted the other.
>> Peterson Toscano (06:33):
Painted.
>> Philip Gulley (06:33):
Uh, a dystopian,
uh, worldview of what might happen
if we didn't fix this and
get rid of these people. You
know, the other. Um,
and I think the reason 82% of
American evangelicals voted for him is
(06:55):
that is the language they understand.
They have been steeped in a culture
of fear, in judgment. And so when he
talks, he's speaking their language. I don't understand
it. I encourage as many of them as I meet and
encounter to get therapy because
I believe it's indicative of a mental
(07:16):
neurosis that needs to be healed.
The thing is, on one level, it works for them
emotionally. They find it emotionally
satisfying. And when you find your life
emotionally satisfying, you're not inclined to
get therapy. You're not
inclined to reflect and to
ask, are these beliefs really
(07:37):
helpful? Uh,
are they helping me become a more
loving and gracious and wise
person? You're
unable to ask those questions because you don't ask those
questions, because you don't feel that
existential vacancy that others
might feel if they were of that same
(08:00):
mindset.
>> Peterson Toscano (08:02):
And I, uh, at least from my. The traditions that I was
in it also, we were warned against
raising these questions, that we could open the door to
deception, to demons, to the
world.
>> Philip Gulley (08:14):
To ask is to wonder,
to doubt is a sin.
I love the Adam and Eve story,
where, uh, it's fruit
from the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil. And I wonder why
in the world would God
(08:36):
not have wanted Adam and Eve to be
able to discern between good
and evil? We know now
that four different authors wrote
the first five books of the Bible. And some of
those sources were very poetic,
exploratory, had all kinds of questions
and just wrote very movingly. Others
(08:58):
of them were priestly and really
liked nailing things down.
And I suspect the person who came up with
that story was somebody
who worshiped every day at the
altar of fear. This is the problem. The problem
is not letting God discern good and evil,
but you attempting to discern what is right and
(09:21):
what is wrong. And here's where that will get you. It
will get you thrown out of the garden
and subject to work and be miserable
and it's just such a, it's just,
uh, Yeah, I
like the other part of that where before they are
cast out, God stays up all
(09:41):
night sewing them clothes. So
God is grandmother.
And I really like that image.
Incidentally, I never heard that story
until I got out of an evangelical
church. I was never told in the
story of Adam and Eve that
(10:02):
God made them clothes,
fashioned them clothing. I was never told
that.
>> Peterson Toscano (10:07):
It's not a vegan friendly story.
>> Philip Gulley (10:09):
It's not a judgment friendly story.
>> Peterson Toscano (10:12):
But yeah, God, the very first grandmother
furrier. I'm going to step back for a moment.
You could jump in.
>> Sweet Miche (10:20):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah. I mean, I think that Peterson just
asked about why it's so hard. But could you tell us
more about a personal, your personal move
away from that, that fear based
God to the.
>> Philip Gulley (10:36):
I remember it perfectly. I, uh, was
at our local Bible bookstore and someone
there, another customer, handed me a book that he
had brought with him. It was a book of Clarence
Jordan's sermons. Clarence Jord
founded Koinonia community in the 19
Georgia. It was an interracial community
to bring together black and white farmers
(10:58):
and people who could live together. Which
as you know, in the 1940s in Georgia
was not a welcomed, welcomed, uh, scenario.
>> Sweet Miche (11:07):
Yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (11:07):
And so they were, came under attack. And
he wrote a book called the Cotton Patch Gospels. And
he wrote a beautiful sermon in there
about universalism
Based on Luke 15,
the parable of the lost Sheep, the parable of the
lost Coin, and the parable of the
(11:28):
lost Son or the prodigal Son.
And he ended with this
wonderful line, God is not
a jailer jangling the
keys on a bunch of
lifers, that is people sentenced to prison
for life. God is a woman looking for
a lost coin, a shepherd searching
(11:50):
for a lost sheep, a father
welcoming a lost child.
And the first time I read that it was an
Abraham Maslow peak experience,
I knew it was true. I knew
it was true. And in that
moment left behind the
(12:10):
evangelical Christianity that I had been
immersed in and became a universalist
and began writing and talking about that experience,
eventually leading to the book if Grace is
True, why God Will Save Every Person.
Which was a great fun book to write.
>> Sweet Miche (12:28):
That's. I feel like in, in your book
Unbelieving, you, you talk a few times
about how you don't know the date when you were
saved or like the exact moment, even though that
could have been. But it, yeah.
Um, but it sounds like you do know the date
where. Or maybe not the date, but you Know the moment where you
were like, okay, that's it. I'm interested in
(12:51):
kind of the difference.
>> Philip Gulley (12:52):
I remember my first epiphany. I
will say that. Yeah, I will say that.
That I remember when the door swung open. But
walking through it is always, of course, a
process, and it's an ongoing
process. One has never quite all the way through
it. I discover it Even now,
some 35, 40 years
(13:14):
later, that there are still things I've left
behind in the old places that in some sense still
speak to me, and I'm not willing to
shed them altogether.
Yeah, like, I'm pretty much a fundamentalist when it comes to the
Sermon on the Mount. I have a friend who's pastors here
in Indiana, which, as I said, is a pretty traditional
(13:35):
state. And so after
the election of Donald Trump, he began a sermon series on the
Sermon on the Mount and was told by an elder to
stop that. It was clear he didn't
support Donald Trump if he was
preaching that heresy. And
my friend said, you do realize where
(13:56):
I'm getting this, don't you? It wasn't written by
George Soros. Part of
the Bible. It's the book of Matthew. You
should try reading it sometime. Which is to say
there's a great deal of biblical and
theological ignorance floating around in the
church today, and it causes
(14:16):
real problems. But what I find
funny is how many
people, when I encountered this mindset
and tried to explain it, that this was
an outgrowth of revivalism that followed
the Civil War. It is a
uniquely American interpretation of
(14:37):
the gospel. So you mustn't act like
Paul invented this. He didn't.
Uh, a guy named Dwight Moody
championed this, and it has a start date,
and we know it, so you
don't. And they have been masterful, done
a masterful job at, uh, making Christians
(14:58):
think that it is the only
legitimate interpretation of the Christian
experience when it isn't.
It has a start date, and I
hope has an end date,
because I think it has caused far more harm than
good.
>> Sweet Miche (15:17):
Things from your previous
religious times and what you bring into
Quakerism. And I feel like, Peterson, you have a bigger
connection in that. And so I was wondering if. If that was something that
was interesting to you of, um,
not having to leave everything
behind.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:34):
Yeah, I found that interesting, Philip, when you said that. That there's some things
you're not yet willing to let go of. And
it sort of makes me wonder about the
discernment process. And, um,
how do you discern when to let go of a belief, when
to hold onto it? And maybe what's something, if you're willing
to share that you're holding on to, that you're like, m. I'm
(15:55):
not sure about this, but I'm not going to let it go yet.
>> Philip Gulley (15:57):
I look at. I look at every belief and ask this question.
Is it moving me forward or is it holding me back?
And by moving forward, I mean, is it
helping me grow? Is it making
me a more loving person? Then I retain
it? And I don't care who taught it to
me. It doesn't matter if I learned that from a Catholic
(16:18):
nun at the age of six, if it still
works, I'm going to keep it. Um,
if it makes me a smaller person, if
it makes me love less, if it
diminishes others, then I feel
very comfortable jettisoning it and letting it
go. And, uh, saying, I'm not going to let that
belief inform my life any longer. And I think all of
(16:41):
life should be this way. I think we need to do this not only
with religion, but I think we need to
do it with nationalism, with what we
were taught about America and the beliefs that we
retain and the beliefs that we
really ought to let go of. Uh, for instance,
what that might look like is the
unthinking sentiment, sentiment
(17:03):
that you often hear. America is
the greatest, freest nation
in the world. Well, okay,
we have ways to measure that now. There's a thing called the
Human Freedom Index. And we can see where America
ranks. And we now rank 17th out of all
the nations, out of all the global nations
(17:24):
in terms of freedoms that we have and that we're
allowed to have. Their happiness
indexes that show Costa Ricans and people
from Finland and Iceland are far more happy
than Americans. Other nations have far more
economic opportunities that we don't have, much
better health care, superior education.
So this mindless chant that we're the greatest
(17:47):
and we're the best has to be
re examined. And I think the same thing
is true of Christianity. Christianity
is the only way to God. Really?
Really. So just by some lucky
circumstance, I happen to be born in
a Christian culture. And what do you know?
(18:08):
That's the only way to God. Well,
how arrogant is that? And think of the
damage that does. Think of the damage that does
when fundamental Muslims, uh, believe
that about their faith, when Orthodox Jews believe
that about their faith and uh,
what it means in their ownership of Israel
(18:29):
and their treatment of Palestinians,
this exclusivity. And incidentally,
I think exclusivity is almost always
a sin, whether it is
religious or nationalist or,
um, racial
um, that is something
we need to outgrow.
>> Peterson Toscano (18:51):
M. Yeah, yeah. When there's a
covenant, typically there are a few on the
inside and a bunch on the outside of
that.
>> Philip Gulley (19:00):
And, you know, we Quakers went through that with
our quietest period in the. When we
were kicking one another out right and left
for marrying non Quakers. And
my family had been quakers. The first four
gullies to come to America were four Quaker
brothers who came to North Carolina in the 1600s.
None of us lasted. We were all read out of
(19:23):
meetings in the 17s and
1800s for violating Quaker norms
that now I look at and I think, well, that was
just stupid. Seriously, you're
going to kick somebody out because they're lapels?
They had a lapel on their jacket
or they had a piano in their home or they married
a Methodist. How foolish is that?
(19:46):
But that is religion.
This covenant mentality
that we are the pure insiders,
boy, that's another one that really sticks
us is this fascination with
purity that always ends up leaving,
identifying someone else as impure
(20:07):
and giving us the right to exclude them from
our lives.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:12):
So I have a practical question because
people get confused about Quakerism and
we have to be careful because I say, well, you know, as a
Quaker, I. But there are different
shades of Quakers, different types of Quakers.
>> Philip Gulley (20:27):
Absolutely.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:28):
What's a nice, straightforward, simple way
you can explain to someone who's interested in
Quakerism, um, for them to know that there are these different
flavors?
>> Philip Gulley (20:38):
I just tell people, like all families, we're. We're
different. Some of us gather in silence every
Sunday. Others of us listen to a prepared message.
Some of us sing, others of us don't. What.
What seems to me to be the constant
among all Quakers, and I've traveled among,
been present and worshiped with all sorts of Quakers,
(20:59):
is our pretty
consistent assertion that God
teaches directly
and that silence is a useful tool
for that discernment. So even
in the most
unprogrammed meetings or, uh, most programmed
meetings I've ever experienced at all, the bells and whistles,
(21:21):
the prayers, the singing, the sermon,
there was still the
recognition that it is
possible to meet God in the silence and be led.
And that seems to last and
persist no matter what.
Now, the length of silence might
vary, but the belief in the
(21:43):
efficacy of silent listening is still
present.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:48):
Yeah, this past Sunday, I preached at
a church outside of D.C. a UCC church that
literally had bells and whistles and they had a bell choir
which I had never heard outside of Christmas, which was really
nice. Uh, they had a flautist.
>> Philip Gulley (22:02):
Wow.
>> Peterson Toscano (22:03):
When I got up to speak, I was like, as a Quaker, I feel
overstimulated by all the bells and
whistles. But I did talk about silence and
that I encourage people to just take just two minutes.
And to her credit, the minister during the prayer
time said, well, why don't we just take this up right now and
have two minutes of silence? And
people, I mean, that was a significant amount for them because they had not
(22:26):
experienced much of that before. And so many
people came up afterwards. And that was the most memorable
part of the service for them.
>> Philip Gulley (22:33):
The most meaningful is there is something
powerful about sitting in a room full of people
and no one's talking.
You're just sharing this gift and. And
holding it close to you. It's
wonderful. It's absolutely wonderful. And then
someone stands up and says something that just
(22:54):
blows you away. It's, uh, it's
my favorite part of the week.
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (23:02):
And you've written about how Quakerism
has given you space to
explore, to unlearn, to kind
of bring your ancestors back, in a
way to their place in Quakerism. But what is
it, would you say, about Quakerism, in
addition to the silence, its theology, its
practice community, what is it that makes it a
(23:25):
meaningful path for people who are
seeking something beyond Christianity, particularly at
this moment in history?
>> Philip Gulley (23:33):
Well, I would say how it's been helpful to
me is by virtue of the kind of people
Quaker meetings attract. The things I really
value in life. Generosity,
compassion, thoughtfulness.
Conversation can be
found in spades in
a, uh, typical Quaker meeting. So I
(23:55):
just like the kind of people that gather
there. I feel immediately at home with
them, no matter what meeting I'm at.
And I've probably participated in over 100 Quaker
meetings in the course of my life as a speaker and
writer. And they're all different, and yet they're all
the same. That is, the same. I find the same kind of
(24:15):
people there. Uh, and
in every Quaker meeting I have ever been to,
I have always found a couple of eccentric
people who would not be welcomed
anywhere else. But they are made
to feel loved and cherished in that space.
And I love that because I think
(24:37):
there ought to be a room for
everybody. M And I think there are a
lot of broken people out in the world, and if we can
give them a place to be
loved without letting
their neurosis drive the meeting,
which sometimes happens, that it can be healing
not only for them, but for those who love them,
(24:59):
who walk with them through this
process of growth and restoration.
I just like the kind of people that Quaker Meetings
attract.
And the funny thing is the
evangelical Quaker meetings, I've gone to the Bible
thumping Quaker meetings and the most
unprogrammed progressive Quaker
(25:21):
meetings attract the same
kind of people. And they all think they're different.
Unprogrammed meetings think program meetings
are evangelical and closed off and
programmed meetings think unprogrammed Quakers
are heretical and don't believe in Jesus.
And I've just not found that to be true at all.
(25:42):
They're the same kind of people. They just don't know
it.
>> Peterson Toscano (25:48):
I think I've also found like some
interesting traits too. Like I find that with most
Quakers regardless of their backgrounds, like we, we don't,
um, we don't believe in violence. We're just passive
aggressive.
>> Philip Gulley (26:02):
But boy, we do that.
>> Peterson Toscano (26:03):
Well, we did. It's like an art
form.
What questions do you have for
us? I know you don't know us very well and I don't know if you've listened to
our show before, but, um, want to give you a chance,
Philip, if you have any questions for us.
>> Philip Gulley (26:23):
Well, I would be interested in the traditions you grew up
in. I mean, I mentioned that I grew up
Catholic. And um. So what about both of
you, Misha? What tradition were you.
>> Sweet Miche (26:34):
Yeah, um, I grew up Methodist.
>> Philip Gulley (26:37):
Okay.
>> Sweet Miche (26:37):
In Portland, Oregon. And I went to Catholic schools
growing up. Um,
and I,
yeah, I loved the
idea of church and I really saw the
value in that community, but I don't think that.
Yeah, my belief in God kind of dwindled. I
(26:59):
lost my father when I was 11. And right after
that I dove really deep
into some of my Bible thumping as an 11 year
old. Um, and then I think,
yeah, understandably. Yeah. And then I think
as, as the grief kind of passed, I was
like, this isn't working for me
anymore. Um,
(27:21):
so, uh, yeah, I, I,
um. And then going to Catholic schools, I was
like, I don't know, I just didn't. I'm like, why are
we, uh, just, you know, the,
the patriarchy of it. And also like, I just
didn't understand the, um, the bells and whistles.
>> Philip Gulley (27:38):
Right.
>> Sweet Miche (27:38):
As you both said.
>> Philip Gulley (27:40):
Right.
>> Sweet Miche (27:41):
So I, I left it. And then after college
I found Quakerism. Um, and I was like, this, this is perfect where I
get this community.
>> Philip Gulley (27:48):
Where did you go to college?
>> Sweet Miche (27:49):
I went to Oberlin. I'm in Ohio.
>> Philip Gulley (27:51):
Over in Ohio. Sure. And what did you
study?
>> Sweet Miche (27:55):
I studied American Studies and Gender
studies. Just very classic liberal arts.
>> Philip Gulley (28:00):
You're like me, we, that
allowed us to make a lot of money, didn't.
You're looking at A theology and sociology
major.
>> Sweet Miche (28:15):
Exactly. Um, but yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (28:18):
Wasn't it wonderful to study those
things and have your world just
expand? Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
>> Sweet Miche (28:28):
Yeah. And then I got my master's in
theopoetics, so. At School of
Religion, so that really set me over the top on
the SAP.
>> Philip Gulley (28:37):
When were you at ESR?
>> Sweet Miche (28:39):
I graduated. It was 2020 to
2022. So recently.
>> Philip Gulley (28:43):
Okay. Well, we have a. An intern at our Quaker
meeting now named Jackson Napier.
>> Sweet Miche (28:49):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (28:51):
Jackson is wonderful. We're pastoring our
meeting together now.
>> Sweet Miche (28:55):
Whoa.
>> Philip Gulley (28:56):
Wow.
>> Sweet Miche (28:57):
That's lovely. Yeah, we had classes together.
>> Philip Gulley (28:59):
So you and I have many friends in common.
>> Sweet Miche (29:01):
Exactly.
>> Philip Gulley (29:02):
Yes. Wow. Yes. You were there
when Carol Spencer was there, weren't you?
>> Sweet Miche (29:08):
Yeah, I was.
>> Philip Gulley (29:09):
She was a delight.
>> Sweet Miche (29:10):
Yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (29:11):
And a native Oregonian.
>> Peterson Toscano (29:13):
Yes.
>> Philip Gulley (29:14):
Peterson, what tradition did you grow up in? Or did
you.
>> Peterson Toscano (29:18):
Yeah, um, I'm thinking about Miche, though, and all the headhunters
who are after looking at. At
their experience, uh, of, uh, learning. Like,
we need to hire this person. I like you,
Philip. Grew up Catholic. Uh,
and. And at age 17, I made a
switch. Uh, I grew up, um, Catholic,
and I always had this sort of
(29:40):
mystical, longing side to me. And
at age 15, after hearing some
Baptists talk, just the basic Romans
road kind of thing, but there was something
real about them. They talked about God in a different way.
I sat in my room quietly and I had
this wonderful encounter with
Jesus. Uh, and I didn't know what to do with
(30:02):
it. And unfortunately, a Bible believing church
said, we know what to do with this. Come to our
service and hand over your
brain and we will keep it in a jar
so you won't be harmed by it. And we will
fill the cavity with all the truth.
So I became a born again evangelical
(30:24):
conservative, anti gay
republican Christian.
And then you went all the way, didn't you? I went all
the way, though. I was
whole hog. Uh, and, uh,
I then spent the next, like 17 years attempting to
destroy my sexuality and
everything attached to it, which turned to be creativity,
(30:47):
the liberal arts that I study, theater and
English. And so it almost destroyed me. And
I finally had to come to, like, the place
where you asked the good question, like, is it moving me forward?
I. I had assess, like, how come I don't see
the fruit of the Holy Spirit in my life.
I've been looking for joy and peace and kindness and self
control, and it's. I have none of that. I just
(31:09):
am miserable. And this doesn't. This is
not the hand of God in my life. This is something
Else. And then I remember this significant
moment, praying. And it wasn't that I heard a voice, but I got this
impression, you know, I was like, God, I've been asking you for
years to make me straight, to fix me,
whatever. And you know, it's like as if the Spirit
said um, yeah. And you wouldn't take no for an
(31:31):
answer.
And I never imagined the answer would be
no. I just always assumed I was asking the
wrong way or whatever. I was like,
that's wow. And then I. And it was in
2001, after 9 11. I, I
found the Quakers. And um, the, that meeting
(31:51):
was right after 9 11. I needed to be somewhere. A woman
I worked with was a Quaker. And I went and
everyone was in stunned silence.
There were no messages. And it
felt glorious.
>> Philip Gulley (32:05):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:06):
And I thought, you know what, I don't need to actually
listen to another sermon again. I have listened
to thousands of sermons.
>> Philip Gulley (32:14):
Right.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:14):
But I've not listened to the silence.
>> Philip Gulley (32:17):
Right.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:18):
And so I've been a Quaker since
2001 and it's been so
helpful in my coming out
experience because it's, it's an ongoing thing. It's like
unlearning, discovering what I had hidden in the past
that's still valuable, you know, those sort of things. And I'm
also a Bible scholar. That's the one thing I got from my
time. And I, I use those evangelical
(32:39):
Bible skills, right. To
explore gender non conforming Bible
characters. But I use the tools of the
evangelicals by saying look, it's in the
text so we have to take this interpretation
seriously.
>> Philip Gulley (32:53):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:53):
And that's been, that's. I'm actually so grateful that I
unders. I speak evangelical as a second language.
It's very helpful.
>> Philip Gulley (33:01):
Wonder about what was really happening with Jonathan and
David, eh?
>> Peterson Toscano (33:07):
Yes, exactly.
>> Philip Gulley (33:10):
Just what they did on all those camping trips.
>> Peterson Toscano (33:18):
Broke back Bible. The broke back
bible.
>> Philip Gulley (33:21):
Jesus and 12 guys looking kind
of shady.
>> Peterson Toscano (33:25):
Yeah, well. And then all the
gender differences, all the like people
transgressing and trans, you know, kind of
transcending gender, people breaking the rules.
>> Philip Gulley (33:36):
Oh yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (33:37):
And that cracked open to me when I heard a gay
guy say, I found another story about us
in the Bible. I'm like, what's that story? He says, you
know the Passover, the man carrying the pitcher of water,
he was gay. I'm like, wait, what? How do
you know that? And he says, oh, because only, um,
back then only women would carry water. So that means he's
(33:57):
gay. I say, no, that means he's gender
non conforming. He may be Gay, and that may be
why, but don't be stealing other people's stories from them.
And I thought, are there others like that? And I was. I'm
shocked to see how many gender outlaws
laws there are in the Bible.
>> Philip Gulley (34:13):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes.
>> Peterson Toscano (34:16):
Well, we're coming close to the end. I've spoken a
great deal. Mish. Philip, what are your
last closing remarks?
>> Sweet Miche (34:25):
I'm a little interested in, uh.
We have a thinking about young people
today identifying as spiritual but not
religious and how that is a growing,
um, faction. And if you
think that organized religion
is still useful, um,
(34:47):
or if it is time for something new
completely or something in between,
um, well, I think it's still useful.
>> Philip Gulley (34:56):
I don't know it, but I think that depends entirely upon
the community in which it
locates itself. Organized religion will
continue to be useful if it does several things
well, if it brings people together
in loving and, um, shared
efforts to enhance the world, if it
(35:16):
respects personal autonomy
and the right of all people to
discern, um, the best
way forward for them, as opposed to
imposing a standard upon them. It's useful as long
as it is loving, as long as its
social priorities are consistent with
the ethos of Jesus, which I believe
(35:39):
is radical love. And when it fails to do
that, I don't believe any organized
religion is helpful. And quite frankly, I wish
they would just die off. It needs to be jettisoned,
and we as humans need to do that. We need
to, um, be much more discerning in
what we give our hearts and minds to.
(35:59):
And be careful not to support things that
diminish us or diminish others. If we can
find a way to include all, to
help all, to encourage all,
who wouldn't want that? There's still
a place for us. Who wouldn't want that?
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (36:20):
I'm assuming a progressive hearing that
might say, well, good, because
I do that. I'm in the good spot. I'm in the good place. I
don't have to question anything. But, um, what is
your critique on progressives and where they might need
to grow or question
m. I say almost.
>> Philip Gulley (36:40):
Every Sunday at my, uh, at my
Quaker meeting, I said, if you've spent the week wishing
you could do more to help the hungry,
to home the homeless, speak truth to power,
and you have felt like what you've done isn't
enough, couple your
efforts to ours so that,
uh. So that what you have been doing can be
(37:02):
magnified. We can do more
together. Um,
and that's really true. I mean,
if we, um, we don't take up money
at our meeting every Sunday, we have these
big baskets that we had made, and we wheel them
up and down the aisles, and people put food in
them, and that food is
(37:24):
immediately taken out and, um,
distributed to hungry people. We do the same with
clothing in winter.
We do the same with school supplies for poor
children, um, in underserved
areas.
You know, you can give one
(37:46):
coat. If you come here and help us, we can give a
hundred. Yeah.
Um, so the multiplication
of. Of good that happens when people
are in a community.
>> Peterson Toscano (37:59):
Well, we have come to the end. Any last words
that you feel you must say, Philip, that is on your
heart.
>> Philip Gulley (38:05):
Well, I just appreciate what you two are doing. You
know, they used to call early Friends publishers of
Truth, and we wrote all these
tracts and books to get word out
about ourselves. And the new form of that, of course,
is the podcast.
You are reaching people my books will never
reach. You are reaching people who will never hear
(38:27):
the sermons I give of. You are the new publishers of
Truth among the Religious Society of Friends, and I commend you
for that. Keep up the good work.
>> Peterson Toscano (38:37):
Wow. I feel special.
Look at that. Mish. All right, I'm going to stop recording.
Thank you, friends. Thank you,
(00:02):
Philip, for being with us. We've been so
excited. Uh, after we read your book, we're
like, oh, uh, we're so excited to see you.
>> Philip Gulley (00:10):
Well, it's an honor to be with you both.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:14):
Please say your name how you like it to be
said. Your full name.
>> Philip Gulley (00:18):
Philip Gully.
>> Peterson Toscano (00:20):
And, uh, when somebody asks you when you meet somebody and
they meet you for the first time and they say, what do you do?
What are. What's your go to answer these days?
>> Philip Gulley (00:30):
Um, well, it depends on where I am.
If I don't want to talk to people. For
instance, if I'm on an airplane and just want some
privacy, I tell them I'm a nuclear
physicist because no one knows anything
about that, and it immediately ends the
conversations. Otherwise, I just tell
them I'm a Quaker minister. I
(00:52):
used to say rider. But then if
people immediately ask, well, what do you write?
And, well, I write a lot of things. And if
I mention a book I've written, they say, never heard of
it. And it's just too demoralizing.
So I tend to say quaker minister.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:12):
And what are some identities that you have that you like
people to know about?
>> Philip Gulley (01:18):
That I'm married, that I'm a
grandpa, that I just found out that our
youngest son and his wife are going to have twins.
I like that. That I have a lot of friends and
that I feel very fortunate in life.
Those are the things that matter to me, that are important
to me. Yeah. And I
(01:39):
have a wonderful wife. We've been married 40 years now,
and she's a librarian and is
bright and curious and fun and.
And, uh. So that's a joy.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:50):
Also, librarians are great. It's like having your own personal
Google.
>> Philip Gulley (01:54):
It's wonderful.
>> Peterson Toscano (01:59):
My husband's like that. He's a professor at a
university, and I can just randomly
muse about something out loud. I
wonder how many people fly to
Mexico every year. And I don't have to
ask him to look it up. He has to look it up, and he has
to know.
>> Philip Gulley (02:16):
Yes. Yes.
>> Sweet Miche (02:18):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (02:21):
Well, we're here to talk about your book Unlearning, uh, God.
And it's about unlearning, uh, the beliefs that you
inherited about God, about faith, about
theology, practice. And for
you, what was one of the most challenging beliefs
for you to unlearn, and why do you think that is?
>> Philip Gulley (02:40):
Oh, I would say I grew up Catholic. I became a
Quaker at the age of 17. For me, it was the
big three. You know, God is omnipotent,
omniscient, and Omnipresent, knows
all, is everywhere, can do
anything, uh, that nothing is beyond
God's power. But then when you look at that,
(03:00):
those uh, assertions, you begin to realize
just how unhelpful they are. Especially
as you address the question of evil. It just
doesn't hang together. Oh, so God could have
prevented the Holocaust, but God
chose not to. Well, that
doesn't seem very moral to me. So it creates
these struggles in one's mind which
(03:23):
for most people is easily dismissed by
saying, we cannot fathom the ways of
God. Well, I'm sorry, I
can fathom what is moral and what is
ethical and what I would do if I
were in a situation to stop the Holocaust. Uh,
so I don't think it is outside of our purview to
(03:43):
ask that question and to attempt to
understand that. So something has to give.
So maybe what needs to give is our understanding of
God, uh, and what we've been
taught about God.
>> Peterson Toscano (03:58):
Yeah, I remember those days
asking these questions. There are a lot of consequences.
>> Philip Gulley (04:04):
Oh yeah. And they're just so
destructive. I can't tell you as a
pastor, the number of people who come to
me and, and who've said, I
don't understand why God took my only
child. And I don't want to get in, I don't like getting
in theological arguments with people who are
grieving. That's not an appropriate time to do
(04:26):
theology. Except for
that. When you say to them, well, let's talk about
that. Is that
God's, Is that consistent with the God you've
experienced?
>> Peterson Toscano (04:39):
Um, and why is this one so
hard to unlearn?
>> Philip Gulley (04:45):
Well, I think it's because it's one of the first
things we learn, that God loves us, that God's in
control. It is a product of our deepest
need, which is to live life without
being crippled by fear or a
sense of hopelessness. And so we
posit all these powers into a divine being
(05:06):
so that we don't have to go through life
worrying that no one's in
control and that this will somehow end
up okay. I think the start of maturity is when we
realize no one is in control
except for you. And even that's a limited kind
of power. I can't do everything I
(05:26):
want, um, and that
I have to make my peace with these realities and
limitations. Mhm. Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (05:37):
You mentioned fear. And fear
seems to be that sticky substance
that can keep people from
rethinking their beliefs. Oh yeah, because
of a lot of reasons. And you talk about the angry
God. Say more about that to someone who
has grown up under that and feels the
(05:57):
weight of it and is terrified to walk away because
of all the consequences of
walking away in their mind.
>> Philip Gulley (06:04):
Yeah. Well, it's clear that fear is
probably the driving motivation in
our culture. I think that's especially obvious
now with the rise of
Donald Trump and his supporters, which, in
a way, was a
masterfully evil
(06:24):
manipulation of human
fear. It identified and
targeted the other.
>> Peterson Toscano (06:33):
Painted.
>> Philip Gulley (06:33):
Uh, a dystopian,
uh, worldview of what might happen
if we didn't fix this and
get rid of these people. You
know, the other. Um,
and I think the reason 82% of
American evangelicals voted for him is
(06:55):
that is the language they understand.
They have been steeped in a culture
of fear, in judgment. And so when he
talks, he's speaking their language. I don't understand
it. I encourage as many of them as I meet and
encounter to get therapy because
I believe it's indicative of a mental
(07:16):
neurosis that needs to be healed.
The thing is, on one level, it works for them
emotionally. They find it emotionally
satisfying. And when you find your life
emotionally satisfying, you're not inclined to
get therapy. You're not
inclined to reflect and to
ask, are these beliefs really
(07:37):
helpful? Uh,
are they helping me become a more
loving and gracious and wise
person? You're
unable to ask those questions because you don't ask those
questions, because you don't feel that
existential vacancy that others
might feel if they were of that same
(08:00):
mindset.
>> Peterson Toscano (08:02):
And I, uh, at least from my. The traditions that I was
in it also, we were warned against
raising these questions, that we could open the door to
deception, to demons, to the
world.
>> Philip Gulley (08:14):
To ask is to wonder,
to doubt is a sin.
I love the Adam and Eve story,
where, uh, it's fruit
from the tree of the knowledge of good and
evil. And I wonder why
in the world would God
(08:36):
not have wanted Adam and Eve to be
able to discern between good
and evil? We know now
that four different authors wrote
the first five books of the Bible. And some of
those sources were very poetic,
exploratory, had all kinds of questions
and just wrote very movingly. Others
(08:58):
of them were priestly and really
liked nailing things down.
And I suspect the person who came up with
that story was somebody
who worshiped every day at the
altar of fear. This is the problem. The problem
is not letting God discern good and evil,
but you attempting to discern what is right and
(09:21):
what is wrong. And here's where that will get you. It
will get you thrown out of the garden
and subject to work and be miserable
and it's just such a, it's just,
uh, Yeah, I
like the other part of that where before they are
cast out, God stays up all
(09:41):
night sewing them clothes. So
God is grandmother.
And I really like that image.
Incidentally, I never heard that story
until I got out of an evangelical
church. I was never told in the
story of Adam and Eve that
(10:02):
God made them clothes,
fashioned them clothing. I was never told
that.
>> Peterson Toscano (10:07):
It's not a vegan friendly story.
>> Philip Gulley (10:09):
It's not a judgment friendly story.
>> Peterson Toscano (10:12):
But yeah, God, the very first grandmother
furrier. I'm going to step back for a moment.
You could jump in.
>> Sweet Miche (10:20):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah. I mean, I think that Peterson just
asked about why it's so hard. But could you tell us
more about a personal, your personal move
away from that, that fear based
God to the.
>> Philip Gulley (10:36):
I remember it perfectly. I, uh, was
at our local Bible bookstore and someone
there, another customer, handed me a book that he
had brought with him. It was a book of Clarence
Jordan's sermons. Clarence Jord
founded Koinonia community in the 19
Georgia. It was an interracial community
to bring together black and white farmers
(10:58):
and people who could live together. Which
as you know, in the 1940s in Georgia
was not a welcomed, welcomed, uh, scenario.
>> Sweet Miche (11:07):
Yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (11:07):
And so they were, came under attack. And
he wrote a book called the Cotton Patch Gospels. And
he wrote a beautiful sermon in there
about universalism
Based on Luke 15,
the parable of the lost Sheep, the parable of the
lost Coin, and the parable of the
(11:28):
lost Son or the prodigal Son.
And he ended with this
wonderful line, God is not
a jailer jangling the
keys on a bunch of
lifers, that is people sentenced to prison
for life. God is a woman looking for
a lost coin, a shepherd searching
(11:50):
for a lost sheep, a father
welcoming a lost child.
And the first time I read that it was an
Abraham Maslow peak experience,
I knew it was true. I knew
it was true. And in that
moment left behind the
(12:10):
evangelical Christianity that I had been
immersed in and became a universalist
and began writing and talking about that experience,
eventually leading to the book if Grace is
True, why God Will Save Every Person.
Which was a great fun book to write.
>> Sweet Miche (12:28):
That's. I feel like in, in your book
Unbelieving, you, you talk a few times
about how you don't know the date when you were
saved or like the exact moment, even though that
could have been. But it, yeah.
Um, but it sounds like you do know the date
where. Or maybe not the date, but you Know the moment where you
were like, okay, that's it. I'm interested in
(12:51):
kind of the difference.
>> Philip Gulley (12:52):
I remember my first epiphany. I
will say that. Yeah, I will say that.
That I remember when the door swung open. But
walking through it is always, of course, a
process, and it's an ongoing
process. One has never quite all the way through
it. I discover it Even now,
some 35, 40 years
(13:14):
later, that there are still things I've left
behind in the old places that in some sense still
speak to me, and I'm not willing to
shed them altogether.
Yeah, like, I'm pretty much a fundamentalist when it comes to the
Sermon on the Mount. I have a friend who's pastors here
in Indiana, which, as I said, is a pretty traditional
(13:35):
state. And so after
the election of Donald Trump, he began a sermon series on the
Sermon on the Mount and was told by an elder to
stop that. It was clear he didn't
support Donald Trump if he was
preaching that heresy. And
my friend said, you do realize where
(13:56):
I'm getting this, don't you? It wasn't written by
George Soros. Part of
the Bible. It's the book of Matthew. You
should try reading it sometime. Which is to say
there's a great deal of biblical and
theological ignorance floating around in the
church today, and it causes
(14:16):
real problems. But what I find
funny is how many
people, when I encountered this mindset
and tried to explain it, that this was
an outgrowth of revivalism that followed
the Civil War. It is a
uniquely American interpretation of
(14:37):
the gospel. So you mustn't act like
Paul invented this. He didn't.
Uh, a guy named Dwight Moody
championed this, and it has a start date,
and we know it, so you
don't. And they have been masterful, done
a masterful job at, uh, making Christians
(14:58):
think that it is the only
legitimate interpretation of the Christian
experience when it isn't.
It has a start date, and I
hope has an end date,
because I think it has caused far more harm than
good.
>> Sweet Miche (15:17):
Things from your previous
religious times and what you bring into
Quakerism. And I feel like, Peterson, you have a bigger
connection in that. And so I was wondering if. If that was something that
was interesting to you of, um,
not having to leave everything
behind.
>> Peterson Toscano (15:34):
Yeah, I found that interesting, Philip, when you said that. That there's some things
you're not yet willing to let go of. And
it sort of makes me wonder about the
discernment process. And, um,
how do you discern when to let go of a belief, when
to hold onto it? And maybe what's something, if you're willing
to share that you're holding on to, that you're like, m. I'm
(15:55):
not sure about this, but I'm not going to let it go yet.
>> Philip Gulley (15:57):
I look at. I look at every belief and ask this question.
Is it moving me forward or is it holding me back?
And by moving forward, I mean, is it
helping me grow? Is it making
me a more loving person? Then I retain
it? And I don't care who taught it to
me. It doesn't matter if I learned that from a Catholic
(16:18):
nun at the age of six, if it still
works, I'm going to keep it. Um,
if it makes me a smaller person, if
it makes me love less, if it
diminishes others, then I feel
very comfortable jettisoning it and letting it
go. And, uh, saying, I'm not going to let that
belief inform my life any longer. And I think all of
(16:41):
life should be this way. I think we need to do this not only
with religion, but I think we need to
do it with nationalism, with what we
were taught about America and the beliefs that we
retain and the beliefs that we
really ought to let go of. Uh, for instance,
what that might look like is the
unthinking sentiment, sentiment
(17:03):
that you often hear. America is
the greatest, freest nation
in the world. Well, okay,
we have ways to measure that now. There's a thing called the
Human Freedom Index. And we can see where America
ranks. And we now rank 17th out of all
the nations, out of all the global nations
(17:24):
in terms of freedoms that we have and that we're
allowed to have. Their happiness
indexes that show Costa Ricans and people
from Finland and Iceland are far more happy
than Americans. Other nations have far more
economic opportunities that we don't have, much
better health care, superior education.
So this mindless chant that we're the greatest
(17:47):
and we're the best has to be
re examined. And I think the same thing
is true of Christianity. Christianity
is the only way to God. Really?
Really. So just by some lucky
circumstance, I happen to be born in
a Christian culture. And what do you know?
(18:08):
That's the only way to God. Well,
how arrogant is that? And think of the
damage that does. Think of the damage that does
when fundamental Muslims, uh, believe
that about their faith, when Orthodox Jews believe
that about their faith and uh,
what it means in their ownership of Israel
(18:29):
and their treatment of Palestinians,
this exclusivity. And incidentally,
I think exclusivity is almost always
a sin, whether it is
religious or nationalist or,
um, racial
um, that is something
we need to outgrow.
>> Peterson Toscano (18:51):
M. Yeah, yeah. When there's a
covenant, typically there are a few on the
inside and a bunch on the outside of
that.
>> Philip Gulley (19:00):
And, you know, we Quakers went through that with
our quietest period in the. When we
were kicking one another out right and left
for marrying non Quakers. And
my family had been quakers. The first four
gullies to come to America were four Quaker
brothers who came to North Carolina in the 1600s.
None of us lasted. We were all read out of
(19:23):
meetings in the 17s and
1800s for violating Quaker norms
that now I look at and I think, well, that was
just stupid. Seriously, you're
going to kick somebody out because they're lapels?
They had a lapel on their jacket
or they had a piano in their home or they married
a Methodist. How foolish is that?
(19:46):
But that is religion.
This covenant mentality
that we are the pure insiders,
boy, that's another one that really sticks
us is this fascination with
purity that always ends up leaving,
identifying someone else as impure
(20:07):
and giving us the right to exclude them from
our lives.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:12):
So I have a practical question because
people get confused about Quakerism and
we have to be careful because I say, well, you know, as a
Quaker, I. But there are different
shades of Quakers, different types of Quakers.
>> Philip Gulley (20:27):
Absolutely.
>> Peterson Toscano (20:28):
What's a nice, straightforward, simple way
you can explain to someone who's interested in
Quakerism, um, for them to know that there are these different
flavors?
>> Philip Gulley (20:38):
I just tell people, like all families, we're. We're
different. Some of us gather in silence every
Sunday. Others of us listen to a prepared message.
Some of us sing, others of us don't. What.
What seems to me to be the constant
among all Quakers, and I've traveled among,
been present and worshiped with all sorts of Quakers,
(20:59):
is our pretty
consistent assertion that God
teaches directly
and that silence is a useful tool
for that discernment. So even
in the most
unprogrammed meetings or, uh, most programmed
meetings I've ever experienced at all, the bells and whistles,
(21:21):
the prayers, the singing, the sermon,
there was still the
recognition that it is
possible to meet God in the silence and be led.
And that seems to last and
persist no matter what.
Now, the length of silence might
vary, but the belief in the
(21:43):
efficacy of silent listening is still
present.
>> Peterson Toscano (21:48):
Yeah, this past Sunday, I preached at
a church outside of D.C. a UCC church that
literally had bells and whistles and they had a bell choir
which I had never heard outside of Christmas, which was really
nice. Uh, they had a flautist.
>> Philip Gulley (22:02):
Wow.
>> Peterson Toscano (22:03):
When I got up to speak, I was like, as a Quaker, I feel
overstimulated by all the bells and
whistles. But I did talk about silence and
that I encourage people to just take just two minutes.
And to her credit, the minister during the prayer
time said, well, why don't we just take this up right now and
have two minutes of silence? And
people, I mean, that was a significant amount for them because they had not
(22:26):
experienced much of that before. And so many
people came up afterwards. And that was the most memorable
part of the service for them.
>> Philip Gulley (22:33):
The most meaningful is there is something
powerful about sitting in a room full of people
and no one's talking.
You're just sharing this gift and. And
holding it close to you. It's
wonderful. It's absolutely wonderful. And then
someone stands up and says something that just
(22:54):
blows you away. It's, uh, it's
my favorite part of the week.
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (23:02):
And you've written about how Quakerism
has given you space to
explore, to unlearn, to kind
of bring your ancestors back, in a
way to their place in Quakerism. But what is
it, would you say, about Quakerism, in
addition to the silence, its theology, its
practice community, what is it that makes it a
(23:25):
meaningful path for people who are
seeking something beyond Christianity, particularly at
this moment in history?
>> Philip Gulley (23:33):
Well, I would say how it's been helpful to
me is by virtue of the kind of people
Quaker meetings attract. The things I really
value in life. Generosity,
compassion, thoughtfulness.
Conversation can be
found in spades in
a, uh, typical Quaker meeting. So I
(23:55):
just like the kind of people that gather
there. I feel immediately at home with
them, no matter what meeting I'm at.
And I've probably participated in over 100 Quaker
meetings in the course of my life as a speaker and
writer. And they're all different, and yet they're all
the same. That is, the same. I find the same kind of
(24:15):
people there. Uh, and
in every Quaker meeting I have ever been to,
I have always found a couple of eccentric
people who would not be welcomed
anywhere else. But they are made
to feel loved and cherished in that space.
And I love that because I think
(24:37):
there ought to be a room for
everybody. M And I think there are a
lot of broken people out in the world, and if we can
give them a place to be
loved without letting
their neurosis drive the meeting,
which sometimes happens, that it can be healing
not only for them, but for those who love them,
(24:59):
who walk with them through this
process of growth and restoration.
I just like the kind of people that Quaker Meetings
attract.
And the funny thing is the
evangelical Quaker meetings, I've gone to the Bible
thumping Quaker meetings and the most
unprogrammed progressive Quaker
(25:21):
meetings attract the same
kind of people. And they all think they're different.
Unprogrammed meetings think program meetings
are evangelical and closed off and
programmed meetings think unprogrammed Quakers
are heretical and don't believe in Jesus.
And I've just not found that to be true at all.
(25:42):
They're the same kind of people. They just don't know
it.
>> Peterson Toscano (25:48):
I think I've also found like some
interesting traits too. Like I find that with most
Quakers regardless of their backgrounds, like we, we don't,
um, we don't believe in violence. We're just passive
aggressive.
>> Philip Gulley (26:02):
But boy, we do that.
>> Peterson Toscano (26:03):
Well, we did. It's like an art
form.
What questions do you have for
us? I know you don't know us very well and I don't know if you've listened to
our show before, but, um, want to give you a chance,
Philip, if you have any questions for us.
>> Philip Gulley (26:23):
Well, I would be interested in the traditions you grew up
in. I mean, I mentioned that I grew up
Catholic. And um. So what about both of
you, Misha? What tradition were you.
>> Sweet Miche (26:34):
Yeah, um, I grew up Methodist.
>> Philip Gulley (26:37):
Okay.
>> Sweet Miche (26:37):
In Portland, Oregon. And I went to Catholic schools
growing up. Um,
and I,
yeah, I loved the
idea of church and I really saw the
value in that community, but I don't think that.
Yeah, my belief in God kind of dwindled. I
(26:59):
lost my father when I was 11. And right after
that I dove really deep
into some of my Bible thumping as an 11 year
old. Um, and then I think,
yeah, understandably. Yeah. And then I think
as, as the grief kind of passed, I was
like, this isn't working for me
anymore. Um,
(27:21):
so, uh, yeah, I, I,
um. And then going to Catholic schools, I was
like, I don't know, I just didn't. I'm like, why are
we, uh, just, you know, the,
the patriarchy of it. And also like, I just
didn't understand the, um, the bells and whistles.
>> Philip Gulley (27:38):
Right.
>> Sweet Miche (27:38):
As you both said.
>> Philip Gulley (27:40):
Right.
>> Sweet Miche (27:41):
So I, I left it. And then after college
I found Quakerism. Um, and I was like, this, this is perfect where I
get this community.
>> Philip Gulley (27:48):
Where did you go to college?
>> Sweet Miche (27:49):
I went to Oberlin. I'm in Ohio.
>> Philip Gulley (27:51):
Over in Ohio. Sure. And what did you
study?
>> Sweet Miche (27:55):
I studied American Studies and Gender
studies. Just very classic liberal arts.
>> Philip Gulley (28:00):
You're like me, we, that
allowed us to make a lot of money, didn't.
You're looking at A theology and sociology
major.
>> Sweet Miche (28:15):
Exactly. Um, but yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (28:18):
Wasn't it wonderful to study those
things and have your world just
expand? Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
>> Sweet Miche (28:28):
Yeah. And then I got my master's in
theopoetics, so. At School of
Religion, so that really set me over the top on
the SAP.
>> Philip Gulley (28:37):
When were you at ESR?
>> Sweet Miche (28:39):
I graduated. It was 2020 to
2022. So recently.
>> Philip Gulley (28:43):
Okay. Well, we have a. An intern at our Quaker
meeting now named Jackson Napier.
>> Sweet Miche (28:49):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (28:51):
Jackson is wonderful. We're pastoring our
meeting together now.
>> Sweet Miche (28:55):
Whoa.
>> Philip Gulley (28:56):
Wow.
>> Sweet Miche (28:57):
That's lovely. Yeah, we had classes together.
>> Philip Gulley (28:59):
So you and I have many friends in common.
>> Sweet Miche (29:01):
Exactly.
>> Philip Gulley (29:02):
Yes. Wow. Yes. You were there
when Carol Spencer was there, weren't you?
>> Sweet Miche (29:08):
Yeah, I was.
>> Philip Gulley (29:09):
She was a delight.
>> Sweet Miche (29:10):
Yeah.
>> Philip Gulley (29:11):
And a native Oregonian.
>> Peterson Toscano (29:13):
Yes.
>> Philip Gulley (29:14):
Peterson, what tradition did you grow up in? Or did
you.
>> Peterson Toscano (29:18):
Yeah, um, I'm thinking about Miche, though, and all the headhunters
who are after looking at. At
their experience, uh, of, uh, learning. Like,
we need to hire this person. I like you,
Philip. Grew up Catholic. Uh,
and. And at age 17, I made a
switch. Uh, I grew up, um, Catholic,
and I always had this sort of
(29:40):
mystical, longing side to me. And
at age 15, after hearing some
Baptists talk, just the basic Romans
road kind of thing, but there was something
real about them. They talked about God in a different way.
I sat in my room quietly and I had
this wonderful encounter with
Jesus. Uh, and I didn't know what to do with
(30:02):
it. And unfortunately, a Bible believing church
said, we know what to do with this. Come to our
service and hand over your
brain and we will keep it in a jar
so you won't be harmed by it. And we will
fill the cavity with all the truth.
So I became a born again evangelical
(30:24):
conservative, anti gay
republican Christian.
And then you went all the way, didn't you? I went all
the way, though. I was
whole hog. Uh, and, uh,
I then spent the next, like 17 years attempting to
destroy my sexuality and
everything attached to it, which turned to be creativity,
(30:47):
the liberal arts that I study, theater and
English. And so it almost destroyed me. And
I finally had to come to, like, the place
where you asked the good question, like, is it moving me forward?
I. I had assess, like, how come I don't see
the fruit of the Holy Spirit in my life.
I've been looking for joy and peace and kindness and self
control, and it's. I have none of that. I just
(31:09):
am miserable. And this doesn't. This is
not the hand of God in my life. This is something
Else. And then I remember this significant
moment, praying. And it wasn't that I heard a voice, but I got this
impression, you know, I was like, God, I've been asking you for
years to make me straight, to fix me,
whatever. And you know, it's like as if the Spirit
said um, yeah. And you wouldn't take no for an
(31:31):
answer.
And I never imagined the answer would be
no. I just always assumed I was asking the
wrong way or whatever. I was like,
that's wow. And then I. And it was in
2001, after 9 11. I, I
found the Quakers. And um, the, that meeting
(31:51):
was right after 9 11. I needed to be somewhere. A woman
I worked with was a Quaker. And I went and
everyone was in stunned silence.
There were no messages. And it
felt glorious.
>> Philip Gulley (32:05):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:06):
And I thought, you know what, I don't need to actually
listen to another sermon again. I have listened
to thousands of sermons.
>> Philip Gulley (32:14):
Right.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:14):
But I've not listened to the silence.
>> Philip Gulley (32:17):
Right.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:18):
And so I've been a Quaker since
2001 and it's been so
helpful in my coming out
experience because it's, it's an ongoing thing. It's like
unlearning, discovering what I had hidden in the past
that's still valuable, you know, those sort of things. And I'm
also a Bible scholar. That's the one thing I got from my
time. And I, I use those evangelical
(32:39):
Bible skills, right. To
explore gender non conforming Bible
characters. But I use the tools of the
evangelicals by saying look, it's in the
text so we have to take this interpretation
seriously.
>> Philip Gulley (32:53):
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (32:53):
And that's been, that's. I'm actually so grateful that I
unders. I speak evangelical as a second language.
It's very helpful.
>> Philip Gulley (33:01):
Wonder about what was really happening with Jonathan and
David, eh?
>> Peterson Toscano (33:07):
Yes, exactly.
>> Philip Gulley (33:10):
Just what they did on all those camping trips.
>> Peterson Toscano (33:18):
Broke back Bible. The broke back
bible.
>> Philip Gulley (33:21):
Jesus and 12 guys looking kind
of shady.
>> Peterson Toscano (33:25):
Yeah, well. And then all the
gender differences, all the like people
transgressing and trans, you know, kind of
transcending gender, people breaking the rules.
>> Philip Gulley (33:36):
Oh yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (33:37):
And that cracked open to me when I heard a gay
guy say, I found another story about us
in the Bible. I'm like, what's that story? He says, you
know the Passover, the man carrying the pitcher of water,
he was gay. I'm like, wait, what? How do
you know that? And he says, oh, because only, um,
back then only women would carry water. So that means he's
(33:57):
gay. I say, no, that means he's gender
non conforming. He may be Gay, and that may be
why, but don't be stealing other people's stories from them.
And I thought, are there others like that? And I was. I'm
shocked to see how many gender outlaws
laws there are in the Bible.
>> Philip Gulley (34:13):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes.
>> Peterson Toscano (34:16):
Well, we're coming close to the end. I've spoken a
great deal. Mish. Philip, what are your
last closing remarks?
>> Sweet Miche (34:25):
I'm a little interested in, uh.
We have a thinking about young people
today identifying as spiritual but not
religious and how that is a growing,
um, faction. And if you
think that organized religion
is still useful, um,
(34:47):
or if it is time for something new
completely or something in between,
um, well, I think it's still useful.
>> Philip Gulley (34:56):
I don't know it, but I think that depends entirely upon
the community in which it
locates itself. Organized religion will
continue to be useful if it does several things
well, if it brings people together
in loving and, um, shared
efforts to enhance the world, if it
(35:16):
respects personal autonomy
and the right of all people to
discern, um, the best
way forward for them, as opposed to
imposing a standard upon them. It's useful as long
as it is loving, as long as its
social priorities are consistent with
the ethos of Jesus, which I believe
(35:39):
is radical love. And when it fails to do
that, I don't believe any organized
religion is helpful. And quite frankly, I wish
they would just die off. It needs to be jettisoned,
and we as humans need to do that. We need
to, um, be much more discerning in
what we give our hearts and minds to.
(35:59):
And be careful not to support things that
diminish us or diminish others. If we can
find a way to include all, to
help all, to encourage all,
who wouldn't want that? There's still
a place for us. Who wouldn't want that?
Yeah.
>> Peterson Toscano (36:20):
I'm assuming a progressive hearing that
might say, well, good, because
I do that. I'm in the good spot. I'm in the good place. I
don't have to question anything. But, um, what is
your critique on progressives and where they might need
to grow or question
m. I say almost.
>> Philip Gulley (36:40):
Every Sunday at my, uh, at my
Quaker meeting, I said, if you've spent the week wishing
you could do more to help the hungry,
to home the homeless, speak truth to power,
and you have felt like what you've done isn't
enough, couple your
efforts to ours so that,
uh. So that what you have been doing can be
(37:02):
magnified. We can do more
together. Um,
and that's really true. I mean,
if we, um, we don't take up money
at our meeting every Sunday, we have these
big baskets that we had made, and we wheel them
up and down the aisles, and people put food in
them, and that food is
(37:24):
immediately taken out and, um,
distributed to hungry people. We do the same with
clothing in winter.
We do the same with school supplies for poor
children, um, in underserved
areas.
You know, you can give one
(37:46):
coat. If you come here and help us, we can give a
hundred. Yeah.
Um, so the multiplication
of. Of good that happens when people
are in a community.
>> Peterson Toscano (37:59):
Well, we have come to the end. Any last words
that you feel you must say, Philip, that is on your
heart.
>> Philip Gulley (38:05):
Well, I just appreciate what you two are doing. You
know, they used to call early Friends publishers of
Truth, and we wrote all these
tracts and books to get word out
about ourselves. And the new form of that, of course,
is the podcast.
You are reaching people my books will never
reach. You are reaching people who will never hear
(38:27):
the sermons I give of. You are the new publishers of
Truth among the Religious Society of Friends, and I commend you
for that. Keep up the good work.
>> Peterson Toscano (38:37):
Wow. I feel special.
Look at that. Mish. All right, I'm going to stop recording.
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