🎙️Navigating the Landscape of the Past and Future of Trauma Therapy: A Conversation with Samuel Blanchette

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Music]
all right um this is the tap therapy
podcast um I'm Joel Blackstock and I'm
here with a man that truly needs no

(00:21):
introduction uh philosopher king um you
know Rockstar
uh published author uh World traveler uh
collector of rare
artifacts uh as AIC magic specialist no
um Samuel Blanchett am I saying that
right is another is another social

(00:42):
worker who reached out to to me and um
you know we're both kind of in the
similar world and a ton of uh the stuff
that I've done I think it's just because
our website is a little bit more visible
um has people see ideas and they're kind
of looking for people in their world you
know we've talked a little bit about how
academic psychology is going in a
different direction than clinical

(01:03):
practice um because the market is
wanting things that um are not happening
in the hospitals by and large which is
not a great place for the profession to
be in and um anyway I have a lot of
these conversations like on the phone
with people that want to connect and
like they're fun and they're interesting
and I I learn a buch of stuff and so
decided I'm just going to start doing
that on the podcast one because I'm out
of time all I do is therapy podcast and

(01:23):
play with my kids uh and sleep uh and so
uh yeah Sam was a really interesting
nice guy who reached down and wanted to
connect and um I'm sure we'll have a a
fascinating conversation so thank you so
much for being here can you introduce uh
your your act
biography yeah so aside from my arcanium
uh of you know esoteric skills and my

(01:46):
treasure seeking and so forth should
have come up with more like ASO more
like uh Antiquated titles like alienist
you
know right aasher yeah
faer
all of those all of those things in the
progression of learning how to be a
human right yeah um so uh yes I'm a

(02:07):
random human being that reached out to
you because I saw that you had um found
a a really kind of lovely way of
integrating some of the modern
neurological approaches with some of the
cool um more philosophical approaches
what I don't think there's really a
distinction there but just to make
discrimination
between as if we could do that to

(02:27):
ourselves um distinction only really yes
and so um I am a uh Master's level
clinician with a license associate
clinician um so I'm working towards my
ultimate end goal of whatever that is
stages here because here the C is the
terminal license interesting yeah so I'm
in Arizona so that's and it is different

(02:50):
across all the states and and my U my
degree is actually in counseling so I'm
I'm not coming from the social working
realm okay when you said LCS because
here it's Al C LPC and then social is is
counselor and then social worker is
lgsw um which they just changed to L
mssw and then it turns into LCSW which

(03:11):
used to be
LCSW our board and it's infinite wisdom
you some ERS
around absolutely I really appreciate
some of the states though that are
working on doing kind of interstate
compacts as far as that goes I think
that's kind of a really cool the
counselors are so much better at it than
the social workers um and it's like and
I think there's there's pros and cons to
both ones but overall it seems like the

(03:33):
social workers have like a little bit
less self-esteem or something like I
don't know what it is um and the boards
seem like we like during the pandemic
the counseling boards are like getting
together and The Clinical Psychology
boards are are making everything APA is
like making everything like so much
easier for the licens to practice across
straight lines and meet this need in a
mental health crisis and like our board

(03:54):
is making it harder and being like
actually there's these hoops because we
have to make extra sure um which I mean
there's maybe ways to do it but it's
just like they keep raising the number
of Ethics hours because they're like
well people keep sleeping with their
patients so maybe that they're doing
that because they haven't heard it for
eight hours instead of four and it's
like no like that I I don't think no one

(04:17):
I don't think no one told them not to do
it is the
problem like pretty much like
introduction to you want to be a mental
health
professional gonna be so bored that we
GNA K the beo of the entire profession I
mean it's like you you you need to kind
of catch that and the education level
and the support level and um The Lure

(04:39):
level which for some reason it's only
we'll just tack on these CES and and and
then that'll fix these problems
retroactively which supposed to be the
system's profession social social
workers are supposed to understand the
system as it actually works not as we
wish it did you know the The Stereotype
is the lpc's kind of in a vacuum being
like symptomology which isn't always
true and the social worker is more like

(05:00):
person and environment food racism
culture you know but for some reason
those are not the ones that uh that make
the loss about social yeah and I think
that's you know that's an interesting
point that you make about coming into
this field right and I think to some
degree well it seems that human beings
have an interest in how their minds
psyches Souls work right how this thing

(05:22):
functions because we all experience
suffering and so we try to create
methods of managing whatever that is
right and and I think that that's such
an interesting point about this like
creating a education of so many hours to
try and inform you of information and
there's such a a huge difference between
the experience of sitting with somebody

(05:42):
in an intensely emotional space and the
theoretical constructs around sitting
with somebody in emotional
space and everybody who doesn't do that
seems to want to tell you how to you
know the the the the psychiatrist that
has never been in therapy and doesn't
practice therapy and right of the
insurance board and the state
legislature have all these opinions

(06:03):
about things they don't do like teach
children or or do
counseling yes all of those pieces and I
and I think I mean you Ed a really I
mean explicit example right this idea of
like oh they keep on like engaging in
relationships with these uh you know
people that that's outside of the
framework and the boundaries of the like

(06:23):
the holding container right at the same
time if you don't know how to work with
the energy of human connection right
like the intensity of that on the levels
that are necessary to some degree to
like for multiple types of people you
kind of got to be a chameleon you need
to be what they need not what you you
know want absolutely and to stay with

(06:44):
that um is and I think that's a huge
part of what our field does we we create
mental constructs in order to feel safe
when we're journeying into the unknown
and I think um you know brain spotting I
think that they he the author makes a
really interesting point about like
there quadrillion Connections in the
human brain and I think that that's

(07:04):
lovely to be aware of because uh I think
one thing I've noticed as a struggle is
they boards and other you know Trends
try to dictate what is the right way of
doing therapy and oh boy I've I've had
so many internal conflicts or like you
can do the right thing for the wrong

(07:25):
reasons or the wrong thing for the right
reasons you know it's like like there's
some people who use exercise is an
avoidance you know so if they're
processing trauma with brain spotting
stop exercising it's not that that's a
bad thing to do you know but it's like
so a lot of times I think when you put
more control at the top level you're
just making Pro
providers sort of have a different

(07:46):
aesthetic about doing what they're doing
anyway you know it doesn't actually
change practice that much if anything it
makes it worse yeah you this idea of
having to change the language that you
express the thing that you're going to
be doing naturally anyway well and like
the whole profession I mean I think
that's like why mental health is such an
a weird spot is it's like because you

(08:07):
see it if you're a social worker and
you're working with like grants and
things yes so there's all these
assumptions baked in to the way the
rules are written that there's services
that exist and connections and and and
things that have not been around for 30
years so like half of it is ticking
boxes that are fake just because it used
to work this certain way and and like
it's not quite a catch 22 but need a

(08:29):
word for that I mean and one of the
things is it's like psychiatrists know
how to do therapy is just this
assumption because psychiatrist know how
to read research about CBT and it's like
no we we used to think that because it
used to be true because they used to do
therapy and they used to be in therapy
and now the vast majority of them are
not but for some reason they're the one
that calls me you know from an insurance
panel that I'm no longer in that says

(08:51):
well you should be able to treat
dissociative identity disorder in three
sessions with CBT or drugs are mandated
and no more therapy will be paid for and
also brain spotting isn't evidence-based
and neither is EMDR and neither is like
you know some other long list of stuff
she wanted me to I was like hey uh have
you ever done this like I I asked they
like they I I left the panel and then

(09:12):
they were like well fine and now they
call me every year and ask me to go back
in I never well but they're
like um you know like I don't know it
was it your dream to be the member of a
15ers you know fake referral insurance
thing that's local to this ZIP code like
what are you doing why are you telling
me how to do therapy you've never done
it
like and I don't know oh yeah that the

(09:37):
that divide is a curious one because on
some in some cases it actually like
Bears really Pleasant fruit right like
some of the really cool um neurological
studies and some of the like neuros
stuff um what I really love about it in
all honesty is it gives Credence to a
lot of historical and traditional
methods of working with people and now

(09:58):
we can just label it with scientific
terms and say it's good an example that
I really like so memory reconsolidation
I think is so lovely that's really been
encouraging to me this idea that there
is a way that the brain changes things
fundamentally permanently emotionally
right love that I it's very encouraging
to me and in my process of doing therapy

(10:19):
I deeply fell in love with Gestalt
therapy at the very beginning of things
I found the book ego hunger and
aggression and I'm like oh my goodness I
really love the the depth of this thing
BR pearls was was he was he was an
interesting guy yeah he was I think a
lot of um you know we have videos and we
use that to interpret a certain total
system of philosophical approach which

(10:41):
is it is what it is and that's what
people do but um his wife lauro Pearl
contributed so much um Goodman all these
different thinkers contributed to this
really really lovely existential
approach to and I think his downfall was
kind of two things too it's like one he
was kind kind of a little bit more of a
showman he was probably kind of like me

(11:01):
like he want it was like you're not I
want to show you how well this thing
works by demonstrating it and so people
thought it was to reductive not not
reductive they thought it was like too
much of like a um I don't know just some
kind of a tri technique or something
instead of he was showing them part of a
system and then also like east and west
coast castol kind of got in a fight I
mean it's like middle of California
people were like this should be therapy

(11:22):
and the other people were like it should
be religion you
know which I I guess your therapy
modality is successful it accidentally
forms like a a religion cult you know I
don't know like a philosophical life
approach yeah I think uh that you're
absolutely right though about that thing
and I think the the challenge that

(11:44):
happens the unfortunate thing is like
when certain people take things to their
extreme um especially when part of the
whole thing is trying to keep ideas
alive to some degree um like let like
you like you said let me show you
something cool right and um I think what
that winds up doing though is like

(12:04):
especially in the case of like AAL
therapy like here's this like beautiful
um in theoretical idea right field
Theory dialogical approach I am thou
phenomenology relationship in between
bracketing all these brilliant really
lovely existential Concepts kind of like
flowing into this approach um and then
we wind up with like oh yeah I do empty

(12:26):
chair work therefore I'm using
and it's
like it's like like saying like all yian
therapy is active imagination right like
it's like let's take a Technique we
don't even give yian therapy I mean
actual yans that are trained it's like a
ton of the time um they just especially
I think it's more of an American yunan

(12:47):
thing where they just sanitize it so
much and they're like oh it's just
therapy plus Jesus or it's like therapy
you can bring to church or it's like a
sand tray or like but there's not I mean
same it happens with all modalities same
thing you're talking about it's like
people mistake the technique for the the
the the lens of the modality which is
how you're understanding a person which

(13:08):
is how you're the conceptualization is
so much more important than what you're
doing in the room you know oh I agree so
fully I think and the hard part is like
how do you describe being a human right
like it's so potentially nuan problem
with psychology there you
know yeah and then how do turn this into

(13:29):
something that creates transformative
change and I think I again like out of
all the things that sort of Y youngan
slash Young's love of alchemical ideas
and that framework of thought I think
it's so beautiful because it's at least
language that's um not dependent on time

(13:50):
right so whether it's the dsts or aric
Traditions or these different things
they're all drawing from this concept of
trans
information uh and now my experience
especially when when we're looking at
things like Parts work and stuff
everybody labeled these things in their
own way with their own conceptual so

(14:11):
much of the part the especially like ifs
is like him just putting um which I I
don't dislike ifs like if I had a giant
treatment center and I needed to Train
everybody to be able to do the best work
like but like he put yian archetypes
together with ex with um gal Therapies
experiential component you know and some

(14:31):
maybe some DBT skills but like that's
what it is you know and I the language
of it is kind of dogmatic you know I
think it's like so much easier to just
say protective part you kind of feel how
this one's a physical protective part
that one's kind of an unconscious one or
whatever than getting in a fight with a
client about it something's like a
firefighter or protector what like
personally like I mean it's people who

(14:52):
do it do great work but yes you know I
just I'm not as wild about the language
of all that also they think it's family
therapy every time you say ifs people
think you're a family therapist sure
they're like do I have to bring my
mother in well the mother that lives in
you whether that's you know's already
here yeah she's in the space part of
your phenomenological field look how

(15:12):
we're doing this so what what did you
work with gastal but what are the kind
of broad strr of your practice now or
the stuff that you H so you know I'm not
an official anything right because
unfortunately there's a pace wall that
inhibits people from becoming certified
in anything and and I understand that to
some degree because people want purity
of systems possibly or they don't want

(15:34):
to be misrepresented or what whatever
that means and that's okay and I
understand that you know I think
unfortunately that again diminishes the
free exchange of information and ideas
and then you wind up with like you said
the dogmas that that have to approach
existence in a very fixed pattern and
that's that's neurotic traditionally

(15:55):
anyway um so I would say my current I
I I would say the collection of things
right so I do really
like primarily because it makes me feel
confident and science is important to
people and myself right so this sort of
neuro biological piece especially poly

(16:15):
Bagel Theory I really like that um and
again all of those are still constructs
built on our current understanding of
medicine and biology but I really like
polyle Theory I like um like I said
memory reconsolidation I like theide
that there are fundamental processes
that mammals use to make
adaptation and that just makes sense to

(16:36):
me um and then sort of more of that um
the Gestalt oriented humanistic type of
thing so kind of like M Loy kind of
existential stuff um and then I did a
real deep dive into like Parts work and
things
because if you've ever sat with anyone
whether you're a therapist or otherwise
you there is a there is a transition of

(16:58):
Consciousness between aspects of
themselves however you want to Define
that right and people have been
exploring that from the beginning of
time in fact like ey movement and all of
these things have been deeply an
analyzed by like dsts and in in ancient
Arab Arabia and like all these different
kinds of things people have been playing

(17:19):
with human observation and how we do
what we do um but one thing that
constantly shows up and I I met it first
in gestal work right doing empty chair
it's like oh my gosh what is this uh we
have two fundamentally different states
of Consciousness and I use Consciousness
to define the whole being right it's not
a a thought process but it's a total

(17:41):
representation of Self in the world
right with environment and it's just so
fascinating there and I really really
fell in love with that and started like
strongly believing in it in a sense
um
however that's an interesting space to
go because it's very unknown right like

(18:04):
um and so I was looking for framework to
understand this and I first like got
some deep framework in psychosynthesis
right um assagioli really going into all
these details about subpersonalities and
the alchemical process of you know
transmutation of self um and then I
started kind of playing around from
there
and and it's interesting to see now what

(18:26):
what my work kind of shows up as
uh after I've been exposed to all these
different methods voice dialogue you
know interal family systems all these
different on there's a gentlemen um does
voice dialogue have like purchase out
there I mean it seems like there's not a
ton of places still doing it
much I I so I had to look to find all of

(18:47):
these things right ego States is super
fun enjoyable from for folks because it
you know derives from a currently
utilized processes that are popular
that's like Last Remnant of
transactional analysis that's still out
there yeah no absolutely yeah like this
which which all have roots in this gal
thing which all have roots in you know

(19:08):
psychoanalytic processes right it ego
and super ego are parts right I mean
Define them how you will they're they're
something right yeah yeah and so I think
finding out how to work with parts and
also my own process has looked like
working with parts and also realizing
more of this kind of again this field

(19:28):
oriented idea or kind of this Buddhist
idea of this non-local
non-duality so it's like parts and no
parts can both mutually exist and what's
meaningful is how it applies in the
field of Exchange in that moment with
the the person at least that's kind of
where where I'm sitting at I'm kind of
wondering for your for yourself how how

(19:48):
have you integrated that do you stick
kind of like sharply to a process of the
way of working with parts or how have
you integrated this because you have a
lot of really cool neur biological
techniques right and then you have this
other stuff too I'm kind of like I'm
very curious about that well I mean I
think probably what you're responding to
is when I'm looking at the way that a

(20:10):
lot of these models are written you know
young or pearls or whatever I mean
they're written in phenomenological
language it's like this is just how this
feels yes um and and so they're kind of
intuitive which is the reason why a lot
of people they won't die a lot of people
are called back to them and a lot of
reasons why they're never going to be
institutionally
there is that they're not it's not an

(20:31):
objective thing it's kind of an
intuitive concept about don't you
understand this part of your own
experience you know if you're chasing
the academic thing and you don't
understand that part of your experience
that's not going to speak to you you
know because it's not it's not real you
can't see it t you touch it this is
about a subjective kind of felt state in
the parts of self that you can feel and
work with um and I mean frankly I think
to do certain kinds of trauma therapy

(20:52):
you have to bury a certain amount of
trauma that you've worked through don't
really understand it yeah and but then
now you know there's neurology and
neurobiology that is able to explain we
can make guesses you know I'll still get
like a nasty email um from a clinical
psychology student but like we can make
guesses about what these parts of the

(21:12):
brain do and that's always been my
interest and so it's like because I was
always frustrated with just how much how
how bad Academia is admitting that it's
wrong like it's the same people
publishing these papers that are like
you know Yung doesn't conscious isn't
real and this is
whatever yeah now trauma is trendy so

(21:33):
the same guy is like writing a paper
that's like well there's tertiary
secondary and primary levels of
consciousness but the tertiary levels
are only you know symbolic function and
show up in the body and you're like what
dude like you're you're wrong just just
WR I'm sorry you know that's the paper
that you should be
[Laughter]

(21:54):
publishing um you know you're you're
just so my my thing is going back and
saying look yeah these these
philosophies are Perennial meaning they
pop up independently because there's
people sort of feeling thems and
discovering the same thing about how we
work yeah and but then a lot of times
you I don't really have a friend
anywhere because I'm saying I'm not just
in this club I'm trying to say that all

(22:16):
these clubs share functions and that
neither one of them is they all have
pros and cons they all have drawbacks
yes people don't like that you know they
like me for the extent of me saying well
this is how what you're doing is
interesting and here's a cool way to
articulated and hear some techniques
there they like that and then I say okay
but here's where the limitations are and
where you can pivot if oh no don't don't
do that you know and that's that's the

(22:38):
you know people kind of like the stuff
online until they don't you know I won't
even get a chance to respond to the
email sometimes it's just like oh this
is great and I used it and this is great
and I used it oh wait you said this
thing that's threatening to the way that
I practice so I don't think you
understand me like I haven't said
anything yet like I don't know you know
um I don't know if that answers it but
you know that video that I have where
I'm talking about like know I think the

(22:58):
breakdown of these models is like how
experiential they are and how cognitive
they are and so the person who comes in
and says that they want existential
therapy and they're like I did my PhD in
SRA and I use that existential therapy
and I'm called to whatever I'm like in
the back of my head I'm like that's the
last thing that you need you know it's
not that other people are are hell it's
that you are in hell because you feel

(23:19):
bad like and you you don't need to you
know the same thing with the person who
comes in that's just totally in their
feeling State and their feelings all
it's real and they want to dump all this
emot I mean really what you need is to
kind of get out outside of that and see
a bigger picture and have some kind of
you know spiritual or philosophical ones
to analyze your life which yolum says
that in his book that the kind of
therapy you come in wanting is usually

(23:40):
the last one that you need and it's that
um youngan function of opposites right
or this of opposites yeah yeah it's like
okay yeah we want to come in this way so
it's likely that the other side of that
is probably where we're going to get the
most yield however how do we how do we
get you to feel comfortable walking into
that space because we have to build
structure and some different scaffold
thing to step into the unknown right so

(24:02):
if I am like loaded with a certain
perspective it's easy for me to walk in
that world until I dip my toe in the
reality that I don't perceive then it's
like oh my goodness and then we get all
of the functions of like adaptation like
oh that threatens my self-concept and
all this Lov well I mean that's if you
just listen to conflict or politics or

(24:22):
you know whatever it's like half of the
half of the the fights that people get
into or where they become the most
reactive is just where somebody's saying
hey my behavior doesn't line up with my
self-image and you're pointing that out
to me you know which is like one of the
reasons why I can do therapy but
probably not anything else very well is
that I don't quit doing that ever um if
you say something I'm G to take it at

(24:43):
face value and because of that you know
people come into therapy there's kind of
a Buy in to that process of like but you
know it makes you a miserable you know
person to be around at
Thanksgiving maybe maybe we'll drop this
episode then
was in a hospital like I couldn't turn
it off I mean they would have this thing
where they're like hey we really want to

(25:04):
continuously improve and we want to know
what the problem is and we want your all
input and we want you to be honest and
then I'd be like okay well then here's a
thing that you could do easily that
would save you money and it would make
reduce burnout and it would reduce
errors and the downside is it might
threaten somebody's ego or we would just
have to admit that there's a problem
which is what you're asking oh no no
don't say that that's not what you're

(25:25):
supposed to okay fine then you don't
want what you said so don't do this
meeting like give me three hours of my
life every six months or say I want you
to give me your honest
feedback where it's you know you know
what I mean like like as long as you're
saying it I'm gonna continue to take it
at face value even though I know you
don't mean what you're saying and I'm
not gonna stop doing that I mean that's

(25:45):
that's all that I'm gonna die and that's
the phenomenological approach right like
you literally cannot know anything other
than what is happening in the immediate
now right it's like everything else is
extrapolation or some sort of like
projection or something so it's like
okay this is what you mean right and
they're like no okay so this is not what
you mean but this is what you're saying

(26:06):
is that correct and I and I love that um
I love that this um memory
reconsolidation like the fundamental
initial tenant is just creating this
explicit awareness and then a ju
deposition of like so this and this yes
can you talk a little bit about memory
reconsolidation for people that may not
be familiar the technique there yeah
absolutely let's see so eer um Bruce eer

(26:30):
uh Lauren hly uh so Bruce eer was a a
physicist before he started getting into
the whole therapy situation and you know
I love that people have passions because
passions create like they take people
down wormholes that lead to information
I would never find because my passion
doesn't lean in that direction and so um

(26:52):
they really did a lot of work looking at
this idea of um how we fun fundamentally
change our memories right uh there was
this idea up until like the early 2000s
or so that once it's in long-term memory
storage you're stuck with it right and
even we have in vender cul's book like
that body keeps the score it's like no

(27:13):
once it's in there it's in there you're
stuck and uh and then that leads right
that necessitates creating processes
where we're doing a counter um
development of a strategy right so we're
looking for distinction which is like
let me build up this neurological
pathway that's contrary to this one so
they can battle it out and hopefully my

(27:34):
prefrontal cortex wins down against my
lyic system and my subcortical areas
when I'm threatened um and and we can do
that through some desensitization and
building up strategies right which is
fine and that that also building
strategies is how we learn grow and
develop however the fundamental sense of
emotional pain when I access a

(27:55):
historical piece of my existence
that's not very fun and that's what
drives most of us um to seek
change right and and this idea is really
lovely because they were going off this
model like you can't erase long-term
memory once it's in it's in and then
whoa all sorts of cool experiments
they're using mice and then they're

(28:15):
putting in certain chemicals that
inhibit uh the consolidation of um
certain kinds of neurological processes
and bada boom bada bang now we we're not
having the long-term memory affect them
on an emotional level but they still
theoretically hold on to that
information in a chronological fashion
right so and anything like with brain

(28:36):
science because there are you know
billions of connections is going to be
reduced to some kind of metaphor I mean
you there's no way to talk about it
without being reductive unless you're a
supercomputer you know but I mean that's
another thing a lot of the research is
showing is the parasympathetic and the
sympathetic nervous system are out of
sync they're not acting in the same way
which I mean to me with brain spotting
and ET and a lot of the pupil dilations

(28:57):
stuff that we do you can't you can't
fake those reactions you know when
pupil's like doing this you're you know
you're having a brain bleed or you're
maybe brain spotting works and it's
doing something that's neurologically
reproducible
with a reproducible effect even if it's
not plast Dillion randomized controlled
trials and isn't 30 years old yet you

(29:18):
know something I can recreate in the
room I hear the same thing from the
patient it cures the same thing you know
that's how science Works um even it
starts it starts here you know um you
research it later and um and there are a
lot of studies on it now being more
effective than EMDR and some other
things but the parasympathetic and
sympathetic nervous system fighting each
other one dilates the eye and has kind

(29:38):
of a sphincter like muscle that tightens
and the other one has a pulling muscle
that opens the eye sorry I hit my mic um
and that when you usually don't drive
with your foot on the gas and the brake
right but what I can do is hit those to
be in tension you know with color light
frequency eye position um you know all
the different techniques that we have
now I move
sometimes until they rein and my body is

(30:01):
assuming the same thing that the front
of my brain is assuming about how the
world works not something that is 15
years old you know
traumatic I I love that and and this
even speaks to like um Peter LaVine the
oscillation felt senses right even going
back to um earlier stuff of
self-observation we're looking at like
gendlin Eugene gendlin in this focusing

(30:21):
right like here is a felt sense I
experienc it I look I put words on it
and then there's this Curious Thing um
speaking back to this memory
reconsolidation piece which I I love
because it's um non- theoretical right
it's the it is theoretical in the
scientific sense but it's uh trans
theoretical in the sense that it doesn't
belong to anybody nobody can yeah you
know like they say like this is my

(30:43):
method you can't reconsolidate memory
only I can do that right like I have it
all it's mine let pay me thousands of
dollars to learn my strategy which is
fine that is kind of even the models
that I like it's kind of off-putting
where they're like well if you use this
word then you're you know whatever it's
like man come on like why are you doing
this like well they we have to on some
because it's marking territory and it's

(31:05):
validating um philosophical processes
and trying to differentiate that from
something else and all all the things so
what I love though and I'm I'm very
curious especially with um brain
spotting um and various other eye
movement type things whether that's NLP
and the different ways of accessing or
looking in the visual field or any of
these things um or even just staying
with the micr Tremors and um neurogenic

(31:26):
tremoring that happens During certain
kinds of activation all the good stuff
right the lovely thing about this um
this idea so the concept here for the
memory reconsolidation is that it is
theoretically the way so not and and
sometimes that feels kind of powerful
but it is the way of
creating forever emotional change and

(31:49):
the way that it works is memory is
Consolidated during event of high
emotion right so boom I have store that
in my system however we do that we have
no clue right we we have all these ideas
on how memory works but it's way too
integrative to just be reduced to like
neurons it's a yeah so memory is stored
with emotion right in order to change

(32:12):
that the process is really really simple
but it's also challenging because um the
process is is this I need to activate
that as a felt experience that memory
with the emotional component once I
activate that memory in a felt
experience I need to create an explicit
um juxtoposition is the word that they
use something that fundamentally on a

(32:34):
felt sense disconfirms the fact that
that is whatever that might be whether
that's I'm using an i thing and I'm in a
safe space or whatever that is and what
that does is it unlocks all of the
patterns of how that's held because now
just like an animal right I have an
explicit fact that contradicts the
emotional content and once that opens

(32:56):
then we have a process of 5H hour window
where if we continually repeat a the
disconfirming event when it Rec
consolidates the evidence says that what
should happen is that should no longer
elicit anything you can call it back up
and it will be a historical piece of
information but it will not have the
emotional charge to it it sounds like a

(33:19):
lifespan integration is doing that too
I'm not trained in that one you know
I've read the book and one of my
supervision candidates is is really into
it um but it sounds similar and that
you're kind of taking these things that
are felt experiential pretty strong
activating memories but they are
contradictory and then ramming them all
through so quickly that you can't
continue to have all of that stored

(33:41):
sematic memory
um be unchallenged and then the brain
kind of lets it go yeah and that life
the timeline and lifespan stuff is
really interesting because if we look at
NLP they've been using timelines and
things for a long long long long time I
and this is one of the other things that
I struggle with is people will take
ideas that are explicitly described in

(34:02):
older therapeutic modalities they will
not give credit to the line of thinking
and they will attribute it to their own
process that is one of the things well
then sometimes they don't even know when
they're doing it I mean you can kind of
tell when people know that they're doing
it and when people don't you know like
Joseph Campbell bringing Yung to America
I mean I feel like he knew what he was
stealing and he in didn't you know give

(34:22):
he was a y he didn't give credit to it
you um he said that you know but um yeah
there's other people where I think
they've just heard something and then
they start doing something and then they
decide they came you know what I mean
like the
yeah yeah that's fair uh what I really
what I really love though about this
process so this idea memory recall it

(34:44):
somatically in a felt way justos of
experience something that completely ex
explicitly confronts that creates the
unlock which then allows new information
to be encoded and the memory to go away
uh and what's really kind of neat is
though this is very dependent on each
situation so you can you can remove the

(35:04):
emotional um charge of a certain thing
but if it has other connections or other
parts are attached to it each of those
would also need to go through this
process of reconcil um memory
reconsolidation in order to get the full
effect of when I think of that in this
this this this this context it no longer
elicits that strong necessary emotional

(35:26):
survival
response um and what I like about it is
because it's kind of
like it just a concept neurologically it
means that every therapeutic modality
could theoretically work and if they
worked it means they followed this
natural biological process and if if

(35:49):
what I really love about Concepts like
that is that it's it gives a lot of
freedom back to the clinician to trust
their their artfulness their own
intuition their intuition yeah so it
says okay this is generally how it works
even if you was polyal Theory I think
was also beautiful for that this is
generally how it works now knowing that

(36:09):
within the confines of the biology let's
let's use our creative playful curiosity
to generate new outcomes yeah well and
that's the thing that you can't teach
you know it's like I love it if there's
an interview candidate that fights with
me um because they understand something
and they believe it and they know
something they're not just trying to
figure out what somebody wants from them

(36:31):
those are the clinicians that take years
to get better the ones that have coming
from the hospital or something and like
it's almost like they were trained not
to think for themselves and justify
everything they do in this thing and you
know like the question that you can't
fake in an interview you know if you're
uh if you're early in your therapy
education remember this one me just
obsorb a ton of podcasts and a ton of

(36:52):
like current material on that and then
go in with like a fresh perspective and
be like this is where I think it's
headed this is where it's not because
you can't fake that question I mean when
the when we do like Executive coaching
and people are talking about hiring like
I always mention like just ask them the
last thing that they learned
independently that they applied to their
job if somebody's telling you about what
they learned in college 20 years ago

(37:14):
don't hire them if they're like well I
kind of think this and I think this way
even if it's coding it doesn't have to
be therapy because you can't teach
curiosity no pretty good indicator of
one you know
self-awareness um a a conscious
relationship with intuition and a drive
to be better you know which is what you

(37:34):
want which is what you want in the room
you know I and I love I like that that
phrase he said curiosity can't be taught
and that other thing because it can't be
taught it means that it's a biological
function this is that like ventral vagel
thing it's like and and everyone uses
different languaging higher self maybe
the self or these things but the neat

(37:54):
thing is I think it can be healed you
know I'm not saying saying that some
people are born with it and some people
aren't it's genetic I'm saying that like
your relationship to your trauma and
your life and your sense of self that is
a really good indicator of whether or
not those things are in a good place you
know because a ton of people you know
it's like a ton of people who that's why
efj types are so dangerous you know you
getes you get Jesus and you also get

(38:15):
Hitler like you know because you your
your intuition is so strong in order to
like see what people want to hear and
then get them in their own language to
go somewhere which can make really
capable as a therapist but also as a cal
leader and a lot of those people who are
doing I mean some are grifters but a lot
of the people who are doing bad work
like it's not that they're um meaning to

(38:38):
it's that they're mistaking trauma for
intuition because they come from the
same part of the brain and they're
they're actually having this trauma
response but it feels like the spirit's
in me and I'm giving the
[Laughter]
sermon I don't know and like the early
days of charismatic Christianity in the
old west I mean it really was wild that
it was just like oh up in the mountains

(38:58):
everybody with ad dopamine disorder
needs they've got the calling now
let's people would scream and cry and
see things and lay on the ground and and
and buttoned up Victorian society was
like this slaps man like this is the
coolest thing like I'm you know and they
were feeling something like yes profound
yeah that's but you know you want your
int intuition to be conscious is the

(39:19):
point you know yeah I like that and I I
think that um like being able and even
speaking to that right the neat thing is
that humans when given a safe container
and given permission to be appropriately
expressive and to feel uh especially
with others because we do all this
really cool neurological connection you

(39:40):
know this mirror neurons and the
distribution of like emotional tension
whether that's electromagnetic through
whatever that is as we're doing all that
fun stuff or whatever but the neat thing
is when we have a community of people
that are coming together with a and
ideally with full intention and
understanding of what they're doing and
then they create a space for exchange

(40:00):
and support man those are the the most
beautiful healing environments the temos
right this container yeah that was the
title of will Salman's book about the
spirituality of urban planning the guy
he was on our podcast earlier he's a
really nice
guy tamos is the is the
name it's and the thing I think the

(40:23):
disempowering part of information right
and some ects I think like it is
theoretically it's neutered right it's
just information and we have the freedom
to ex connect with that but the another
battle that I fought one of my own like
internal oppressors or call it what you
will right is like trying to do things
the right way you know and and I've I've

(40:44):
been in enough it reduces anxiety if
there's a right way you know absolutely
and therapy gets to a point where
somebody's being like no I know that you
don't know I know it's up to me but I'm
worried that I'm doing me wrong you know
and it is this thing that such a silly
IDE idea or a silly statement but it's a
real thing and that we have this
insecurity about if we're doing us right
you know I mean I had somebody one time

(41:05):
that told me okay yeah you're saying
that if I get rid of this then I'll sit
down I'll know exactly who I am and I'll
be able to connect with people in a way
that's good and and but what if I do
that and I don't like who that guy is I
just started laughing just like what am
am I supposed to say if what if I like
myself and the self that I am right now

(41:25):
is by the that it could be in the future
if I hold my potential it's like but
it's so human it makes a ton of sense
it's not like that person I'm not making
fun of them I'm just saying like we all
do that right yes I just never heard it
said like what I don't like that guy I
don't like the authentic
me and I think um the the challenge with

(41:46):
all of these like structured ways of
having to be or trying to get it right
and somebody saying I have the way and
all of this stuff you know it the things
that I think get um hamstrung by those
things in particular are the power of
our own impressive creativity the beauty
of our intuition and then the other
thing is this and I think this is

(42:07):
something that earlier um young and some
of galst and and folks the aesthetic
value of beauty and felt sense like
congruence with beauty like I don't
think there's any objective way of
measuring what feels congruent right
good and beautiful
so well that's architecture we we read a

(42:28):
lot about architecture and I've talked
to a couple I'm supposed to be on the um
the Australian Institute of
architectures podcast a little bit later
on but that's one of the things is it's
like is it's an archetypal thing and not
a lot of people apply yung's theories
visually I mean some artist sort of did
that in the 70s and he didn't he
generally did not like that art because
he thought there was supposed to be a
descent and then a return you weren't

(42:49):
just supposed to be enamored with the
unconscious and become a psychonaut
posted to solve your ego and then come
back and have learned something from it
and have been transformed but also go
back to being how you were you know but
a journey piece but yeah architecture is
getting in touch or film Mak you know so
many of those things I mean that's what
you're saying is it's finding the
beautiful isn't just I came up with it

(43:11):
it's almost like you know intuition is
some like a radio wave that you tune
into and channel this thing or you don't
I mean and you can say that you could
use spiritual language about that or you
could use secular language of just this
kind of deep genetic programming that
we're getting in touch with but only you
can run your experiment to the end you
know your choice is do you do that or do
you fail to or do you ignore it yeah and

(43:32):
that's again that called to Adventure I
like that kind of languaging around this
thing and and I think um there's a
beautiful book um by um Pi fuchi I guess
uh is his name and he's a a
psychosynthesis right and he has I'm not
familiar with him um
psychosynthesis yeah so psychosynthesis
um was near the end time of Freud's um

(43:54):
process assagioli was a psycho um
analyst uh and he worked closely with
young as well down in Italy and he
created a beautiful beautiful model he
he was informed by theosophy which is a
really cool amalgam of a lot of
different spiritual Concepts msky and
these types of folks brought all that in
um and yeah a lot of those flying around

(44:14):
Vienna around that point yeah yeah yeah
during that time period right there's a
lot of this is kind of more of an
inevitability than we give him credit
for I mean there's other people or
they're not giv him credit for than we I
think give him too much credit you know
it's kind of like Columbus like you have
enough ships going around there
somebody's going to bump into it and
realize you can't sell to India if his
ship sinks somebody else does it when

(44:35):
you look at what's going on in Vienna
with like clamps everybody you know like
people were going to apply this idea
that maybe we are not only what we think
maybe there's forces beneath the
surface to medicine to psychology and
they probably would have done it a
little bit better than Freud you know
the the random guy you know

(44:58):
and unfortunately like he had to create
a modality that he could sell to a
community which believed in the world in
a certain kind of way you know some of
the earlier ideas and even the
archetypical imagery that comes in this
Thanos and Aeros and um puts the
thanoses back you know yeah like this
this existential requirement of this

(45:19):
death thing right and then like even
libidinal energy I love that whether it
goes into Wilhelm Reich and talking
about the embodied memory system how the
unconscious is the body um or or
otherwise I think that there's a lot of
really neat stuff there and then of
course you can see a lot of this
cultural overlay and you know and then
then we had all this beautiful stuff pre

(45:41):
that time even like mentalism and these
different kinds of like hypn hypnotic
type Concepts that used a lot of like
alchemical concept and um ways of
defining the world right the world is
mind uh in using like the Emerald Tablet
and these different theorems of like
alchemical transformation right so um
yeah I think it really set a really cool

(46:02):
space and gave words and language to it
to start playing around with it and I
love that people dissented explicitly I
think that that I think if anything that
is what mental health is about is like
you've created a construct and I love
that you've done that thank you so much
for putting words out there I disagree
on some of these levels and that's
important because if we all collude um

(46:24):
we we definitely uphold the delusion
yeah like yeah and I mean and I think
one one of my things has always been
like I don't want to just get trained in
a kind of therapy and then be the expert
I want to be in that kind of therapy as
a patient before I do it with another
patient because that there's the ah of
learning and then there's the AHA of
feeling and I'm so I'm a huge advocate I

(46:44):
mean sometimes people are kind of
sheepish and they've like well I've come
here for a while and you know it's like
yeah you don't need therapy anymore
you're fine like if if you're unsettled
something come back but like you should
go try something else you know youve
probably heard my perspective you've
heard the way that I think and like
you've gotten you've internalized what
you need to internalize you've filtered
out what you don't and like somebody
else is going to tell you something
different you know and that is going to

(47:06):
be useful too so I mean yian analysis
was a totally different experience for
me than CBT um was totally different
experience um been kind of more
psychodynamic but you you you you learn
that language and it's why I can wear
the hat now you know if you just try and
learn all of it intellectually and then
you're like oh I read all the books
that's why you're you like don't know

(47:27):
how to apply it and you end up just
picking the one you like the most you
know and only doing that it's because
you haven't really been in it as a
patient enough to know how to do it as a
provider I think I agree with that I
think I've struggled with that too
because again there's this price wall
That's constructed in order to access
certain types of approaches right like
unfortunately if I label it with
something I can charge you another $50

(47:48):
right yeah yeah and that's when you're
saying that people are like coming up
with these new models and then changing
the name and not giving credit half the
time it's the person that they're it's
the institute's fault that is charging
you $200 to have this on your website
because we copyrighted a phrase right
well and that makes sense yeah having to
create language in order to not be like

(48:10):
copy there's there's to my movement
therapies that are combinations of ET
NLP and bsp that we worked on and we're
kind of doing with other therapists and
we've tried on our spouses and like it's
interesting yes but it's like where do
you go with that if I call that ET I got
to talk to Dr vascas if I call it brain
spotting I got talk to if I call it
Fusion I gotta talk to but like what do
I want to do you know I don't really
want to be the guy going to conferences

(48:31):
and being like here's a new thing you
know for 10 I just don't want to but
like or do you just make up a new thing
and then have everybody be like oh so
you just pulled this out of nowhere and
it's not evidence-based at all like yeah
I don't I don't know you
know I hear that yeah like for instance
like we have uh sensory motorcy therapy
we have um homi we have all these really

(48:52):
kind of nifty things right where people
are labeled in their personal approach
to and oftentimes rooted in a lot of
these traditional things right so we
have like vapy oriented will like
reichian stuff like whether people want
to buy into it or not or like the
outcome of willhelm reich's life or any
of those things like you you're probably

(49:13):
deriving some of your breath methodology
your observational awareness and
phenomenology from Old School body
armoring yeah yeah through bioenergetics
re didn't do himself any favors either
he kind of he was trying to shoot down
UFOs with orgm energy by the end of his
life and like rains and things and

(49:33):
that's yeah well the FBI could took all
the equipment too which even for the
time was kind of an overreaction I mean
he really made some people mad or maybe
they just wanted all the orgasm energy
for themselves I don't know I mean what
I think is funny too is like any
Psychotherapy lens like what you're
talking about that kind of perspective
when you you go so far into it and then

(49:55):
you extrapolate it it like becomes a
cosmology you know like Yan analysis is
like oh wow there's archetypes so what
does that mean and Freud's but willham
Reich you know going nuts kind of was
somebody making a Freudian mesop physics
like a classical Freudian metaphysics
and then being like okay well if
sexuality is the energy ever under
everything maybe sexuality is also the

(50:17):
energy of the cosmos and atoms are
respond to orgasms or you know what
like yeah right so this orgon energy
which is taken from the idea of the
original libidinal energy libidinal
energy is just life energy which is
sexual or otherwise it's projection
whatever that is but it lives right fre
usually applied it in the realm of sex
more than other places yes he

(50:39):
did um however the neat thing though is
let's say like let if we change our lens
and we look at tonric Traditions from
Tibet or India right now we have this
idea of the Inplay of this duality of
relationship between energies of
masculine and feminine when they use um
SE ual language to describe the
fundamental workings between polarities

(50:59):
right and so the alchemical marriage
right so this idea of creating a a total
self using this sort of language I was
gonna say the chem the rose Chuan
chemical marriage but I mean even like
just sex is kind of you know a big force
in part of our Humanity but it also is
just a pretty obvious metaphor when
you're kinding metaphors you know even
like I mean there's Psalms in the Bible

(51:20):
that are talking the love of God Is the
Love you're you loving God is the same
of the love of man and woman know it's
like what does that Meme that's out now
where they're like you know somebody
invents like a clock and then they're
like oh God is a watchmaker and then
somebody invents architecture and
they're like God is an architect and
then somebody invents an AI and they're
like oh we're in a simulation you know
it's just like the easiest way you know

(51:41):
that's true it's not too far removed cre
metaphor that incorporates that I think
though the nice thing though when we're
starting the neat thing about that is
when we connected these qualities like
psychic qualities or libidinal qualities
or whatever ever to the body what we
what we can do at that point though is
now we have some languaging to explore

(52:02):
the phenomenology of my felt experience
oh that's excitement how does excitement
work well I experience it in this
fashion in this way and then now we're
like oh how do how does my body produce
energy which is felt yeah for me to
engage with this world and then we have
all the kind of ways that we create
creative adaptation to all the things

(52:22):
and that's another thing that I really
love from sort of this memory
reconsolidation um type stuff coherence
therapy is this Bruce eer and Lauren H
familiar it's like somebody trying to
make a solution Focus brief treatment of
psycho analysis which is kind of
interesting interesting because it's
it's it's following the memory
reconsolidation thing so theoretically
right and I I've always loved this and I

(52:43):
don't it always baffled me that a moment
of explicit trauma can indelibly burn in
a learned experience for life if that's
true using kind of this polarity
Duality process it it let you know the
brain is thinking about it in a
different way and like a almost
religious or spiritual way you know why

(53:03):
other moments are not being
re-experienced all the time but
traumatic moments are so that's telling
you that that's a different kind of
memory right so this idea that it does
this but my wondering is this right and
I've always wondered this from the very
beginning of every time I the first
sematic oriented therapy I think it was
um sensory uh yeah anyway I was looking

(53:26):
at Peter's work and I was like oh this
is curious is that like if a memory
experiencing is that yeah experien so if
a memory can be created so powerfully in
a moment it should be able to be
uncreated in a moment right making
contact with that sematic memory in a
way that is not ret traumatizing you

(53:47):
know and and it always like it always
kind of like tickled my mind to to think
that because if it can be created it
should be be able to be uncreated in
such in that kind of way now we've
talked about not wanting to
re-traumatize people and kind of tie
trading those experiences which which I
understand um certain things you can't
do you know it's why you have to be able

(54:07):
to you know
take you know appropriate risks at a
certain point but there's not always a
way to eat some of those memories in
this bite-size way that some of the
models are designed to do and I think I
think you're right in my experience
working with people and in my own kind
of self-process as I go through that
right like there are some me memories
that must be experienced as a gal like
the whole fix experience must be

(54:30):
digested in the moment it well brain
spotting does that you know like if you
if you have somebody who's pushy enough
to take you all the way in I mean I've
said you know I'm kind of frust everyone
that I've ever talked to that has had a
bad experience with brain spotting the
provider didn't look at the people at
all they didn't really map the trauma at
all they were just like what do you feel
here what do you feel here what do you
feel here what do you feel here and the
person was like nothing nothing um but

(54:50):
like it pulls everything up at once
which is kind of spiritually profound
and interesting to have this two three
day process where you're reexperiencing
all these things mastering them and at
the end you know memory comes back or
you kind of realize what it was you were
processing either yourself or working
with therapist you know ET um which is
you know a newer thing that yeah using
the yeah like it can bring up incredibly

(55:13):
specific Parts surgically you know and I
loved brain spotting I still love it so
it's not like you know but you know it's
not appropriate for everything I don't
think any one thing is and it's it's
wild like
with with ET there was like one of the
eye movements we had the color frequency
and the
person said can you do something with
like uh acid reflux and I was like well

(55:35):
I mean that's not really how it works
but I got you know what was supposed to
be for kind of throat lungs breathing
like top neck that area which is kind of
a blue green color certain flicker rate
whatever and she was looking at it and
then immediately started remembering
when she was eating as a kid and she was
shamed and then she her whole stomach
kind of shutting down and then this

(55:56):
whole thing just came up but it wasn't
this whole memory about your whole
relationship with this child like
everything it was just incredible around
that one sematic specific emotional
thing in this specific way yep yeah and
I think that's speaking to this kind of
memory reconsolidation thing that's
that's what that also looks like right
it's like every single moment that has

(56:18):
created a
pattern it has a that creative adaption
started because of a reason right so
it's like and if we attend to that
whether again we're focusing on a
Feeling whether we're looking at a space
in in a visual field whether we're
moving our eyes to inhibit our amigdalas
whether we're stomping our feet whether
we're psycho whether we're dancing

(56:39):
whether we're doing like uh you know any
any of the modalities that exist that
are human modalities of expression right
whatever we track and whatever we stay
with if we were to stay with it enough
and give language to it even if we were
doing some like um just Fillin the blank
sort of uh word Association stuff it is
likely that all those roads would lead
to a story right and once the nice thing

(57:02):
about knowing what the story is
sometimes our body remembers it in a way
that our the front of our brain can't
which is where a bunch of those
modalities get stuck I mean if you're
drugged or pass out during an experience
it can be traumatizing but the memory is
not written right it's like a corrupted
file on the hard drive where you know
you maybe you're all you're going to get
is the body's response to it and and
that and that's what you have to go

(57:23):
through and process it never going to be
able to do this stuff because you didn't
see it you didn't perceive it right you
know maybe if you're very young the
damage is written in a different way
kids don't make narrative memory till
kind of three or four right in a
cognitive way yeah and I think and what
I like too is like the narrative that we
experience doesn't have to be the The

(57:46):
Experience itself right so Consciousness
accessing something in a way that my
total brain can experience which inv
involves language components often right
um when I can conceptualize it even if
it's a a theme for instance I have to
not eat because I will be hurt now that

(58:07):
doesn't have to have a explicit memory
but that's a felt sense that I'm giving
words to and once I can hold that with
the experience in my conscious awareness
now and then I create these moments that
contradict those those are the things
that unlock those old patterns um
and you're right we can do that without
eliciting that cognitive piece however

(58:30):
it seems in my experience at least that
that part is very useful for
having a I guess a total gestal a whole
story right yeah yeah the narrative
piece is a really lovely part of me
understanding myself in the world um
whereas if I do a purely um sematic
exercise let's say I do a holotropic

(58:51):
breathing or I go through like some
psychedelic thing that can be really
awesome
however without the right framing I
think those things can also be
disempowering we're we're attributing it
to some other something instead of
acknowledging that it's a us thing yeah
well but I think that like it's not that
the narrative is unimportant when you

(59:12):
don't remember the event or it's not you
know able to be perceived it's that you
don't have like an intellectual
cognitive memory there it becomes part
of a bigger narrative you know a bigger
story and you're still linking it to
that but figuring out what happened or
who or whatever I mean even if you do
knowing Colonel Mustard in the green
room with the Rope doesn't heal you know
right it's reexperiencing physically and

(59:35):
then going through the crisis having the
crisis resolve and then letting my heart
and my body feel safety you know the
thing I love that and I love that
pattern and I think that animals are
such a brilliant um like exposition of
that right like we have these systems
because they're designed to deal with
the world and

(59:55):
when we get to a place of completion
like I'm activated I activate my
parasympathetic or my sympathetic
responses they engage they discharge
appropriately to create the safety that
I need and then I take in the
environment of safety which is a
completely different thing and then it
allows my body to dissipate or discharge
or complete that
cycle and the huge part and I think in

(01:00:17):
most of the sematic type work is like
the it never gets finished right it's
the unfinished business story right it's
like never got to feel like it worked
and I never got to feel that it's over
and I never get to feel safe so my
body's going to keep on generating I
don't want to admit that and accept that
framing because I know that it's over
yeah I know that I shouldn't have to

(01:00:39):
feel that is is the the fight that you
get into with the more kind of St um you
know sensory thinking type
patient and and I think that's an
interesting space because and again you
have to move that into that feeling
frame right it's like okay yes you're
right it is absolutely over and yet here
you are and your body is still
exhibiting behaviors necessary for that

(01:01:01):
condition to be met so so how do we
create an experience now where that can
be done right yeah like yeah and yeah
and I think that's the art of therapy
right it's not the yeah it's a it's a
very curious thing well it sounds like
you're doing amazing work um in your
practice and and where you are I mean
you have kind of longer term career

(01:01:23):
plans or what what do you what do you
see
yourself um I so I just love doing
therapy and I love reading all these
things and trying to make sense of it
because I'm a human in the world trying
to make sense of that the thing that I
would love to do at one point which is
something I deeply appreciate about what
you're doing and there's a lot of people
doing this is putting information out
for people to have access to it without

(01:01:43):
any pay walls or any kind of things like
that right I think I think giving people
free access to information so that they
can experiment with what works for them
so if I were to create a Fantastical
future adventure for myself right um it
would be to continue to learn and use
mediums along the way hopefully as I

(01:02:04):
feel a little bit more like grounded and
confident in my own
process and just share those things W
with always with the condition of like
this could or could not be true please
experiment with it within the
appropriate context using the
appropriate supports that you need in
order to achieve those outcomes you know

(01:02:24):
well I I think um I'd really love you
know it wouldn't it would be something
that would be down the road if I was
doing it but I'd love for like tap r to
be able to host like almost like a deth
psychology Library that's free um
because there's so much stuff that's out
there in the in the common domain um or
that people professors are retiring or
whatever and they're just likely to be
like yeah you can have all of my papers

(01:02:45):
and make them available and it's stuff
that you can't even get through the you
know that journal was gone 12 years ago
or whatever right and even if you pay
$600 a month you still can't read it
um but yeah I'd love to put together
something like that you know our website
our Collective is just kind of um we're
all trying to we think we can build
something that is better together than

(01:03:07):
we can individually and the cost sharing
and everything that goes with that but
yeah if you're ever interested in in
working on something that we if we could
help like if you know I can give you the
access to the website to you kind of
host or build something on the back end
like I don't know some some kind of
electronic you know thing if that's or
anything that you're interested in in
doing ah awesome thank you so much for

(01:03:28):
taking some time to kind of explore some
Concepts around the therapy it's lovely
to explore and have these conversations
and I think um it helps kind of flesh
out and build some um deeper
understanding for myself so thank you
very much for taking some time with me
yeah I mean and I've got you know I got
to pick my daughter up in just a minute
but um or I've you know got 15 20

(01:03:51):
minutes or so I mean what like is there
anything else cuz I don't want to you
had reached out I think initially with
some questions or or things you wanted
to discuss and I I would like to you
know get to all of that stuff I don't
know how much of that was included in
what we already did yeah I think a fair
bit was um if you're yeah so we have
another about 15 minutes is that right
yeah so um so and I you can call I can

(01:04:14):
call try and get in touch with you later
this week November's a lot the past
three months have been just like the
most wild ever I mean but it's it's cing
relatively
down so some things that I wonder that I
would I would like to bring up or
explore if we have with the time that we
have left sure um so because I'm not
officially trained in any of these
things and also there's these pay walls

(01:04:35):
to get exposure and therapy through
these things yeah um I usually wind up
being the subject of my own
experimentation right so I apply these
things the methods and Concepts to
myself as of as possible Right like
whether it's using um brain spotting
right and I'm kind of like feeling that
felt sense and associating with that or
it's Gult work or otherwise wise right
so I definitely understand the value of

(01:04:56):
having another person I think that that
fundamentally changes you can't always
do it you can't always afford it whether
there's somebody local or what I mean
sometimes the self-work is the only
option for certain things right and yeah
absolutely I agree with that so one
thing that I was wondering about and and
I did some more research in things when
I first saw brain spotting said oh my
goodness this looks really interesting I
like this idea right this is also before

(01:05:17):
I ran into mem uses with any kind of
therapy too you know even like cognitive
behavioral people like it I mean there
was somebody in the training usually
it's more kind of less cognitive
providers and somebody who was one of
the trainers and one of the things was
like I'm a cognitive therapy person does
brain spotting and I was like oh wow and
I was listening and she was like you
know brain spotting does the thing where
cognitive therapy can actually work

(01:05:37):
because the body calms down and then
they can learn all this stuff you know
it's like oh wow that's a neat way to
think about Behavior you know but that's
what my problem with behaviorism is that
they think you can change Behavior by
talking about it you know most times
people know what they're supposed to do
they just right do that you know right
and that's that
experimental needing to experience
that's the experiential therapies that

(01:05:58):
were in the 1960s 1970s when they were
doing all this really good stuff and
then we get into these ethical
quandaries that have created what we
have today to some degree but it is what
it is I but I've really deeply
appreciate living now in that there's so
much beautiful there's like a thousand
waterfalls pouring into this um current
you Zeitgeist right this current like

(01:06:19):
space and if if I want to and I'm open
to it and I I can I can check my
prejudices against certain
conceptualizations and methods I keep
Tak a lot of really beautiful stuff
that's very
transformative um so one thing as I I
was doing these kind of experiments
right kind of like playing with that up
down using the zxy accesses different

(01:06:40):
kind of like checking different points
and like moving between different points
what I I can't do brain spotting on
myself at all like there's inside and
outside window when you get training and
outside window is where the providers
just look at people and inside window is
when you're trying to see what the
person feels yeah and for me like so
outside window is a lot more effective
in my experience because a ton of my
patients are so dissociated they don't

(01:07:01):
know what they feel anyway so like I
don't notice anything there and I'm like
no just hang out a minute you're gonna
feel it but when I do brain spotting
with my therapist I'm just like I don't
know I think I felt something here and
she's like and then I'm gone you know so
like some sometimes you can sometimes
you can't I'm particularly bad at it so
I'm wondering in your processing so when
I did this thing and I'm kind of playing

(01:07:22):
around with this and as I'm holding the
space right I'm kind of like noticing my
natural responses right maybe some
swallowing maybe some like rapid
blinking maybe the eyes start to you
know agitate U maybe I I start feeling
kind of those little neurogenic trimers
that we're getting from this body
discharge stuff and and I love that and
it makes total sense from a biological
standpoint right everything starts with
orienting right period every every every

(01:07:45):
everything started with an orienting
reflex that's fun that's just how it is
right you and so I find this place I
hold that in space right holding that
and what I've noticed in my own process
as I've been playing with that in
certain um cases I'll start there with a
feeling right there's a felt sense I'm
experiencing that I'm with it and then

(01:08:05):
my mind will automatically start
populating that with parts so now what I
what I've seen happens is here's my
finger my finger is there I'm attending
to this and then my finger becomes a
part right so now I'm noticing that
there's me a self a part there and then
it has dialogue and concept that starts
playing out in my mind and then I'm
playing out and my active other parts

(01:08:26):
are starting to play out there and if I
hold that space my my processing right
my primary modalities and otherwise
that's what they like to do they create
a dialogue oriented story because I'm
very
auditory and then they'll play that
through to a a sense of um completion
however that story wants to kind of
close itself up I'm kind of curious

(01:08:47):
though and that's what really drew me to
this is like what if we you know because
also the other piece is like if you have
your eyes closed and you do this as well
right your eyes still move if your eyes
are closed because that's just what we
do to access information and the neural
linguistic program folks talk about this
decades and decades and decades ago yeah

(01:09:07):
um but I'm kind of curious is that they
didn't have the neurology though like
the the problem is like they they don't
distinguish between prefrontal mid and
sub brain and so like that's why it's it
doesn't work it's like the the eye
movement NLP stuff is neurologically
very interesting but your ey is going to
drift there you're really feeling like
you could just look here and lie so
saying constructed memories here audio

(01:09:28):
memories there like that's not the best
metaphor about how the brain works
because it can do different things you
know right yeah the fixed location I
think is interesting but they using And
discussing the visual field and how
tracking side to side from different
areas of visual super fascinating I
think um I'm sort of wondering what's

(01:09:48):
been your experience you don't have to
give any explicit information but when
you've worked with folks and you're
doing this um brain spotting type
methodology either fix point or you're
kind of like jumping between points or
tracking between things or whatever
um does it often have a narrative
component like do people often um
express to you that they're experiencing

(01:10:10):
an internal story with parts um do you
and there's a whole Branch therapy is
like fuses so well with brain spotting
it's almost becoming part of the
training like most of the trainers will
train you in it and I'm not certified in
it so I mean I've done phase one and two
and then you know consult with a lot of
people that have done a lot of the
different new ones because there's a lot
of Splinter ones now um but it sounds

(01:10:31):
like what you're asking is like is there
a pattern with eye movement from NLP
iq's that is relevant with brain
spawning or do you are you saying do
people see a story when they hit the eye
position I think what I think if I were
to distill that it would be when people
are holding an eye position are they
accessing a awareness and

(01:10:51):
part or is it a part and a part
inevitably sometimes like part space
therapy can get you there but when
you're there with brainspotting you're
so deep in a lot of the time you're
losing time like you don't like I
dissociated for like 20 minutes when I
did the training and I was expecting
nothing because EMDR didn't do anything
for me I was like well but I saw it work

(01:11:13):
for some patients I was like well I'll
take some of the things from this
training and it was during Co we're on a
screen it wasn't even in person I was
like how could my ey know how far the
thing is away and I mean I like felt
like I just needed to move my head like
I was in water kind of yeah and I was
just silent and if it takes me and not
everybody goes in that deeply with
processing but if you do um like you

(01:11:36):
usually lose time like so the person
thinks the session was 10 minutes and it
really I'm like it's at the end of the
hour because it took me 10 minutes to
get them to go down so when you're
really deep in it's more about the
difference with like ET and brain
spotting and EMDR is like brain spotting
most of the processing is not in the
room you're like opening the this box
and throwing all this stuff from the sub
brain up into the midbrain but like the

(01:11:57):
front of the brain hypothetically I mean
don't see me an email and say I can't
prove that I
can't you don't even know what you're
thinking about for like two days you
don't know what it is and you also don't
really get to pick what you hit as much
right I like it because the processing
is so much more predictable like with
the MDR very few people do this but it's
still terrible when it happens and it's

(01:12:17):
possible with complex trauma like
sometimes somebody would come into
process like a car wreck and You' do it
and they feel great and then they're
thanking you and whatever two days later
totally decompensate I just remember
this thing from when I was a kid I'm
totally shutting down totally whatever
okay we're going to process that and you
know Dad did this thing okay and then de
compensate again oh but Mom was watching
I thought she was my protector now and

(01:12:39):
and they can't work and you know like
that decompensation just doesn't happen
with brain spawning in that way it's
it's not that there's no decompensation
it's said it's so predictable that you
can if it either doesn't work you didn't
because it's like you can knock the ball
over the hill and it's going to roll
down or you can keep knocking the ball
up the hill if you didn't get it to pop
like if you didn't go all the way
through it just nothing happens you they
feel kind of weird but you didn't you

(01:12:59):
didn't open it if you open it then they
go all the way through this thing for
usually two three days you know if
you're obsessive if you're compulsively
trying to figure out what it is if
you're smoking a lot of marijuana if
you're drinking a lot of alcohol if
you're doing anything obsessively you're
going to slow processing down you know
but it will still work it's just don't
do that because like it will make the

(01:13:20):
bad part last longer um but like your
dreams are very weird usually they're
kind of like letting you know what
you're chewing on they're kind of
archetypal they're just weird they're
not normal Dreams A lot of times there's
very photo real moments in it you know
that happened for me it's happened for a
lot of my patients with ET and brain
spawning or with ET the processing is
like five six hours and it's very

(01:13:42):
specific you don't have that huge thing
does that kind of answer your question
so saying is it activating a part or not
like you can use Parts work to be like
okay like I I'll use it to be like all
right now map that defensive part of you
like what does your spine want to do and
the P person's like you're like no
really listen like you're feeling this
like they're big do you want to curl up

(01:14:03):
into a ball well I kind of want to bend
okay are you wanting to curl up into a
ball like you're protecting yourself or
are you covering something up like
you're you don't want to be seen you
want to be invisible do you want to just
train spotting like flip back into the
carpet and disappear in that way do you
are you tense like your bracing CR
impack like you're a foot you're going
to be tackled like that's all
interesting information getting them to
go into the experience that would be

(01:14:23):
Parts based in mapping this part and
what it somatically is and what it
ideologically what does the world around
you feel like if you feel small that
means everything around you must be
bigger do I look bigger do I look
intimidating you know do you feel
smaller than the room weight do you feel
lighter than the room heavier than the
room you feel it could be green you
could feel GRE it doesn't have to make
sense it could you could feel VCR static

(01:14:45):
you know what what is that and and that
then that lets the eye open and you go
in you know but when you're going in
you're never like I'm fighting the inner
critic this is what I have to like it's
a pretty deep brain thing like generally
there's not much talking and yeah than
that that's useful to kind of hear I
think so in different forms of Parts

(01:15:05):
work right so uh and this is kind of it
covers a lot of different ones it's just
a strategy you're working with somebody
and they're accessing this thing say
okay yeah cool if this were to be in the
room here where would it be now in
inherently they do gaze spotting right
so they will they will naturally so the
question I wonder and this is a
philosophical question has it isn't

(01:15:26):
there's no neurobiology to Define it
right I wonder if whenever we do that we
are looking at something that's inside
of us that we' projected so if if on a
on a creative construct level you're
always looking at something right

(01:15:47):
because you can um you saying is that
how the brain works or is that where
you're looking dur a specific experience
where your I'm wondering if that's just
a normal function of how the brain does
this right so if I if I find a space
right and we have the other examples
working with kids you put a little
fluffy thing on top of it or an I mean

(01:16:07):
traditional sand treay therapy right
they're eye gazing down and they're
fixating on certain areas these are just
naturally occurring processes that are
pre-existent because they're human right
you you're working with somebody and
then they'll naturally fixate on a
specific location and then they'll just
start however yeah what is the thousand

(01:16:27):
yard stare in PTSD at somebody looking
at something that isn't there because
they're eyes going this memory from past
you know um yeah I
mean if I'm understanding your question
like I think it's a little bit of both I
mean what David gr would say the brain
spotting guy is that like you can't know
anything about how the brain works so
that's making an assumption and you

(01:16:48):
can't do that so just get out of the way
and let the patient's experience take
you somewhere which is probably you know
right you know as a researcher in my
experience if you don't have some kind
of conceptualization at least for me
like of helping them understand what's
happening a lot of people aren't going
to go anywhere like there's no Buy in
and so you can't really even get them to
the place where they feel it and kind of
understand that it's working um but I

(01:17:08):
think like there are times where
somebody specifically looked there
during a traumatic event and that's they
remember their buddy got blowed up or
they remember whatever but when they're
looking at that spot that memory the
visual tends to like come back in the
room and they're like thinking about it
and then there's other things that I
think are more about brain function like
resource spots tend to be down here you
know they tend to be lower and you and

(01:17:31):
there I've heard people speculate about
like well maybe that's where kids look
under their desk to self sooth or
something like that but for me like it's
like going back I mean some of what we
do now is like a fusion of the ET the
brain spotting the NLP iq's that we've
been looking at how that works because
if I put the glasses on you and I cover
up you know your left your right eye so

(01:17:51):
that everything's going through the the
right side of the brain because the left
eye is connecting to the right side of
the brain why do 95% of people have a
resource spot right here that
immediately if you pull all the anxiety
off and you kind of it's not processing
anything it's not an activation spot but
they're processing it they're they're
feeling calmer and then you go into
processing it works better you know like

(01:18:12):
I don't think 98% of people saw
something right here as a kid I think
that more as a brain function thing so I
mean that's of course incredibly
speculative but does that make sense
that I think it's both but I think that
the memories that are related to where
you were looking during an event that
was true for me too I remember like
looking at a spot and having memories

(01:18:33):
come back from childhood and then being
like Oh brain spotting works that's cool
when I was just reading the book and
trying to do it to myself and then
that's like the least part of the
process like that's not very deep in at
all that's not how the process works um
does that answer you I I feel like I'm
talking a lot and I don't know if I'm
answering what you're asking yeah no I I
think that that works I think part of

(01:18:54):
mine is uh speculative right and so I
like how you kind of reiterated like we
can't fundamentally know what the brain
does it is useful though and then it
sounds like in your own research what
you're exploring is how the eyes which
are an external part of the
brain how they affect the way that the
brain works and processes things and

(01:19:16):
sometimes it's it's almost as if there's
just a mechanical framework that if it's
held generates a certain kind of
reflexive response well it's like if you
are building a computer I'm kind of
dating myself everything system on a
chip now but like when you build a
computer the stuff that has to talk
immediately has to be right next to each
other like the the CPU has RAM on the

(01:19:37):
chip and then the ram has to be right
next to it and the hard drive can be
farther away because the latency is less
and everything else is filtered through
kind of like mid and front brain that's
a sense smell goes pretty deep into
memory but the visual optic nerve
directly through to the brain stem
because you have to see something and
jump when you're a lizard I mean that's
the oldest part of the brain like and
you can't think about it you don't need

(01:19:58):
to pontificate and like you just have to
move so it's like with with brain
spotting somebody's moving before they
know why I mean for me I felt like I was
moving my back of my arm but I wasn't
choosing to like I didn't know why that
was happening um and it was confusing
and um like
so now I'm kind of losing my train of

(01:20:19):
thought of what we were talking about um
but like the yeah anyway I think vision
and the pupil is giving you the best
fastest indicator of what's happening in
a client's experience yeah even if
they're not aware like with ET people
dissociate on certain colors when that
color goes black and they're like they
know it's yellow but they can't see it

(01:20:39):
yeah that's immediately detecting
dissociation whereas normally I'm having
to look or do you look Spacey what's
your posture doing or you having trouble
traum of thought oh every time I bring
up Mom this happens it would take you
know multiple sessions to detect
Association sometimes ET immediately
there you go like with the pupil you're
able to see immediately what the brain

(01:20:59):
is doing you know right if
parasympathetic is you know active or if
sympathetic is active you know when your
pupil is just super wide under the same
lighting for no reason every time you're
in one location something's there right
yeah and I think that's like one of the
most
observable if you attend to it right
it's very clear and very descriptive um

(01:21:22):
versus
a a felt sense of a micr Tremor in the
ilos soaz of a human right unless they
have like a well-developed felt sense an
ability to track that yeah
it's it's very hard to like touch into
the body oriented things upfront like
that so I think yeah absolutely yeah I
think for myself it's definitely one

(01:21:43):
that I'm kind of curious in exploring a
little bit more the brain spotting
generally um and
then my my own self for my own benefit
there's theorizing about what that looks
like how that works and how to engage
that
uh organically right I I know sounds
like you're asking how you would
integrate brain spawning with the other

(01:22:03):
things you're doing is that kind of what
you mean um I that's what I'm looking
forward to as I kind of like create a
more integrative uh sense of how the
mechanics of everything works because my
my favorite type of work and I I'll kind
of like
uh speak to that is like I really love

(01:22:26):
the inherent
flow of how the thing how we process and
how we move and are as beings so I I
like when things naturally fall into a
method right it's like oh and now we're
here and this eye is over here now let's
do this and these things I really
struggle to some degree applying uh top

(01:22:51):
down like directive approach Roes to
other people because my ultimate belief
is about therapy generally right is like
I don't want to have this I I you I
would love for you to be able to learn
how you work in such a way that you can
make this happen on your own if needed
right you're wondering how to give
people a lens to make this something

(01:23:12):
that you could do individually yeah I
think that that's the ultimate thing and
whatever languaging that works with or
whatever pre Preamble or psycho
education ultimately it's this is
naturally you you've been taught not to
how do I give you how do I help or
provide the service where you can learn
to heal yourself in the way that you're

(01:23:33):
designed to do that without all cultural
you know inhibitions or requiring a
therapist even though I can definitely
speak to and honor the fact that it can
process much quicker and much more
efficiently when we have that ventral
vagel connection and sense of safety
well I I think that like there's a ton
of people who have tried to write
therapy as a book you know WR a modality

(01:23:53):
into there's a guy who did that with
adarian therapy it's something self
there's a guy that did that with ifs
that brought a ton of people to IFS
because it's basically how you do ifs to
yourself and and and those work for the
people who they work for who needs that
modality but the the benefit of having a
therapist in the room with you is that I
can switch between this like when I use
the language of Yi analysis you might
hear spiritual abuse or something scary

(01:24:14):
to you when I use this language like you
know somebody's going to be very like
for example like a lot of people who are
not typical therapy woo woo people are
going to be very attached to Ego focused
language right and they're going to
really want to concretely understand
what's happening and they're they're not
going to want to lose their sense of
self so when you start to explain the
hero's journey as this process of like

(01:24:34):
actually you know you're growing like
you're appealing to the way they think
anyway to help them and if you did that
ego Focus language to somebody like me I
would feel like you didn't get me and
weren making room for my experience
right and a book can't do that you know
I mean you could maybe make you could
write 50 books and then do a personality
test and then modular have it whatever

(01:24:55):
you know but that's not a book right
that's it's an electronic book at that I
am I misunderstanding it or is that what
you're
asking no I think that kind of hints it
sort of what I'm speaking to I don't
know if a book would be the means of it
I think fundamentally I believe that
humans have the capability built in
organismic self-regulation right to to

(01:25:15):
heal themselves um and I think that we
have a lot of um cultural constructs
that we've designed to um stop ourselves
from using our organic processes yeah I
mean like a ritual
or activity some kind of some some
process that would be self self-led
right and I think there's all sorts of
things and that's ultimately what these
are designed to produce right they're

(01:25:37):
designed to produce a means of accessing
our natural way of doing that and we do
that in relationship and I can like
honor that and understand the like
validity of connection on a on a yeah on
a very like healing level and
um I think the other part and this is
like a personal challenge is also

(01:25:59):
like finding
the not requiring or not being required
to you like required to be educated in a
way to use my own body and natural
processes to be healing right like like
I have have to go through a process of
relearning how organically my thing was

(01:26:21):
if could never you could one option
would be to never forget you know to
change the way that we raise children to
realize that emotion is not we're not
shaming the emotion we're CH shaming
your the way that you're handling it
that you need to feel it but you need to
feel it and not let it control you you
know and we don't do that so much of the
time what they learn is that the feeling
is bad and then they quit feeling right
and and and I think that catches so much

(01:26:43):
of it because whether I'm staring into a
certain location or I'm accessing a part
I think this idea of being able to feel
well not feel healthy but to feel as a
very concrete skill whole to feel yeah
wholeness in all of that I think that's
I think that that hopefully that's sort

(01:27:03):
of where the pendulum swings right it's
like but to feel whole is is not to be
perfect and even if we say I know I'm
not perfect whatever you know we don't
know that right and and that that's you
know all of therapy is kind of trying to
come around that so how do you you know
in a book or a ritual or self-led
process I don't know we working on it
for a long time

(01:27:25):
right I I do think that you could
probably train an AI to do fancier
things with pupil movement and and we've
work developer and some other things
right now the the problem is that a lot
of those companies are struggling to
figure out how to get their stuff into
the mental health space and they don't
want to talk to small people like me
that you don't have a giant company and

(01:27:45):
whatever well especially they're trying
to program them to do CBT basically like
the people that or or self-led
meditations and things and which is fine
I mean there's maybe a role for that but
I I'm really wanting somebody Microsoft
says that the pupil sensor that they use
to do the Hologram is on the Hollens is
a biometric information so they won't
give it to us you know Apple nobody will

(01:28:07):
talk to you me we've kind of run models
and played around with with different
things but you know you kind of need a
lot of money to sure to encourage
technology to help elicit uh certain
responses in human
healing yeah but I mean the pupil stuff
I mean and there may be patterns that I
can't detect that a computer running a

(01:28:27):
lot of Trials could could notice
something that's more um helpful than
what we're doing or noce subtlety that
that I can't targeted lights of certain
colors to certain locations on the
retina and all that kind of cool stuff
yeah um a lot of the one of the ET
modules with the goggles um uses light
Direction on the pupil and and like it
doesn't like usually there's not that

(01:28:47):
much emotion or the emotion is secondary
it's more physical it's like it breaks
these feedback loops in the way way we
experience pain so you can you can like
it functions sort of like a stellic
gangle on Block in that like you're not
changing the medical thing but the way
the person feels the pain becomes
different and the emotional assumption
about it becomes different and it's
instant so if anything in ET gets
validated soon it'll probably be the

(01:29:08):
goggles because it's like the most
objective thing that I mean when I did
it my ear was bleeding like my eardrum
had ruptured and I was like guys I
didn't mom issues my way into this thing
it's not psychosomatic and they were
like no just look here and like it
worked it wasn't pain I didn't take the
steroid or anything and like I it was
like I don't know if it really and they
would click it back to the other one and
I would feel intense pain so it's like

(01:29:30):
something about I don't know and and he
took you know basically thousands of
articles about light Direction mostly
Seasonal effective disorder research and
then put them together to make the model
most models come directly out of
observation I mean even braing did that
somebody tried something and tried it
and then they thought it was neat and
then they kept trying it ET is different
and that you could never notice any of

(01:29:51):
those things in the room with a patient
he read thousands of research studies
about how the brain works and then tried
to make a model from that so it's this
weird outlier in that way yeah and
there's some really kind of cool recent
evidence about memory reconsolidation
stuff by using directed light that cool
thing yeah well it's been really nice
having you on um I'm gonna one second so

(01:30:13):
if anyone I can point to your website
and psychology day page in the in the
show
notes
[Music]
in
it there a l

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🎙️Navigating the Landscape of the Past and Future of Trauma Therapy: A Conversation with Samuel Blanchette

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