Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What percentage of people do they believe have discalculia?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
All right, it does sound wrong when you say it.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
It does because there's part of me that on's say, dyscalcula.
But I believe it's discalculia. I should know this because
my kid has has It's not a severe case, but
he's got this this Yeah. Oh wow, Yeah, but it's not.
It's not it's not as severe as the case I'm
going to bring up.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They said six percent of the population is found to
be affected by a specific mathematics related difficulty, So it
doesn't I don't know if it gets down into exactly
those who are.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Dealing with discalculia. So I was reading about first of all,
am I saying it right? I should really know how
it's calculia.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I don't know why I keep wanting to say discalcula
because that sounds more natural. It does, But I think
it's I think it's discalcula. And again I feel like
I should know.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Maybe it's also because you're halfway through the work.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Because I feel like I'm stumbling as I get closer.
Just calculia. Oh, I got it a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, culia, you're saying again, it is different than what
you're saying, this calculia. So it's discalculia, this calculia.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I'm dyslassic. Will you find me somebody who either has
it or has a kid who has it, and say.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It for me again, this calculia. Yeah, this calculia.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Cue cue cool Oh Julia Jets, it's cool to have
it dis calculiahia.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's worse. Just call it math dyslexia.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
That would be much easier to say. But if somebody
has it or their kid has it, Kristen please eight
six six to Elliott eight six six two three five
five four six eight, And I do believe that there
are varying degrees of math dyslexia.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So are people who have dyscalculia? Are they also dyslexic?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I don't know. I don't I think like I think,
while you are getting diagnosed with having it, they'll say
you fall on the dyslexic scale, but that it manifests
itself in numbers. So I don't know if they will
say discount coolia is discount Now, discount coolia is a
(02:35):
form of dyslexia, and you just get lumped in with
the dyslexic crew, but it really is numbers related.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, they talk about like young children would most specifically
show this and school age kids, and then they talk
about adults. Symptoms in adults include trouble with word problems.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay, Diane, I don't think that this is you. You
do have problems with word problems.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
You know what, when I see a word problem, I'm like,
I'll never figure that out. The I automatically just say
I won't. I won't know how to do that.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Like my kid struggles with with word problems. But he's
also been diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
With this, they said, measuring quantities like for cooking baking recipes.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Now he's good with that.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Understanding and converting fractions, and it takes me a minute
measuring items, breaking down problems into multiple steps to solve them.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Do you know who Larry Mullen Jr. Is drummer for
you too? Exactly, So he just has been recently diagnosed
so his kid. So let me back up his kid's dyslexic. Right,
So he was recently diagnosed with having discalculia. Two things
about him, the son or Larry About Larry About Larry.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
As a junior, I guess he's a son as well.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So he struggles adding numbers. He also can't count.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And this is recently developed.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
He said that he like, he said that a lot
of people while he's he's a drummer, right, and so
he said that a lot of people would come up
to him and go, hey, why do you look like
you're in so much pain while you're drumming? And he
was like, I can't count bars.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So no, it's like a struggle. He has to think
really hard.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
He said, counting for him is the equivalent of climbing
Mount Everest. Oh my god, that counting bars is such
a he can't count. That it is such and I
realized that sounds asinine to say, right, that's got to
be a severe form. It's got to be like my
kid can count. He could do math? Is it hard? Yes?
(04:47):
Did he have to be taught? Did he have to
learn how to do math a very very specific way? Absolutely?
And thank god he had a math teacher in school
where he was able to this one teacher was able
to kind of break through my kids head and help
him understand how to do it and deal with word
problems and stuff which he struggles with. But to make
it make sense now. I also don't think he's as
(05:09):
bad as as Larry Mullen Junior. But Larry Mullen ju
Junior was like, I can't count. I can't count.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I said oftentimes for like teens and adults that counting
backwards is really difficult too.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Oh, I don't know if I've ever asked my kid
to count backwards.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So Larry didn't do any of the Sphere shows, and
it was at the time thought that it was because
of next surgery, but I just looked back and they
said next surgery and other ailments.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Oh, pardon.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Was this part of his decision not to play with
the band?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I wonder, Wow, I know that he was. So there's
a there's a documentary that was done that he did
all the music for, and it's about like he and
his wife are trying to open a school in New
York along with a group of people who have kids
that are dyslexic in the schools that's strictly for dyslexic kids.
And so there's this document men and he did all
(06:01):
of the music for it. So I don't know if
he was also working on that at the time, because
he talks about how hugely personal. This is but I
guess I'm going through all this. He went and got
himself diagnosed. The only issue I have is they keep
talking about it as being a learning disability. I'd like
to see the writers call it a learning difference. We
don't use that word anymore, although I still do and
(06:22):
Jackie gets mad at me. But I don't know if
that was why. I don't know if it's because he
was working on all that or he was dealing with
it himself.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
But he did actually have surgery, that is true. Oh yeah,
it was a physical problem with his neck that had
him set out the entire residency. But for them to
say other ailmen's at the time, you just think, oh,
is it connected to the surgery. Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Or maybe he was like, I can't do the math
on how long it's going to take me to recover
so I can go be a part of the shows.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Or maybe and this would take somebody who knows you
two inside and out. Maybe over so many decades of
a career. He hinted at this, but the diagnosis finally
came to him recently.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
So maybe he was like a drummer who would talk
about it and these fans from certain interviews can put
the pieces together. Now.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Where there were cards where he would have come out
and said I can't count.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
He said, there's emotional symptoms that go hand in hand
with it too.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Oh, I believe that. I believe that as an adult,
if you said to someone I can't count, they don't
patch on the back and say congratulations.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Said when faced with situations where math is necessary, people
could display anxiety, agitation, fear, yes, physical symptoms of any
of the above, nausea, vomiting, sweating, stomach aches too.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But think about how hard that would be. I mean,
forget simple math, right, which would which you could see
that causing all of those things. How about not just
being able to count?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Right? And those can be all internal and then you
have external horses that exacerbate those feelings. Because I'm sure,
and I'm not picking on Elliott or wanting to make
this assumption, but before your son was diagnosed, did it
also frustrate you?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Oh my god, yes, yes, see, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And did you ever let that frustration show?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Oh? I yelled at him. Yeah, because you want to go,
oh Jesus Christ, please, we're not We're not, We're not
doing calculus here, let's go right now. He could count,
so I didn't have that where I was like, no, four.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Five, which is usually helpful.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
No, no, I would, but yeah, no, of course of
course I would.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So what was Bono saying to Larry.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Jesus he was a dick? Oh my god, can you
come in at the right time?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Is that the origin of that very famous miss Spanish count?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Oh? Because Larry was like, I don't know it in English?
Do you want me to know it in Spanish? Dummy?
Don't you get off your timptoes? I bet it is
two fourteen? But yeah, no, I would, we'd get I mean,
That's how I mean, ultimately, that's how Jackie and I
(09:28):
ended up having to get my kid tested. Was we'd
sit there and go, we can't do this like we
are it is so frustrated. Well, I mean he was
falling behind at regular school, but it was so frustrating.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Were you told by a teacher to maybe have this
looked at by a specialist or did you bring him
to specialist without that nudging?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
No? So the real answer to that was he was
he was falling behind, right, and so we went to
the school to try to get accommodations for him, but
they they said, he's still learning, so we won't give
him accommodations. We're like, yeah, he's learned, but he's fallen
way to the back of the pack here and like
and not doing well at all. And they're like, well,
(10:09):
we can't give you a commodation. And there were some
teachers that were like, he needs accommodation. Yeah, but we
couldn't get the county to do it. So they said,
unless you could get a doctor to do it. So
we took him to like I forget what they call him,
some educational psycho something or other. And when we met
with him, he was the first one that was like,
while we're doing the test and waiting for the results,
(10:32):
you might want to start looking into some schools that
specialize in this. So and then when the results came
back that we were like, he would have he would
have never made it out.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Is the management of it of dyscalculia similar to the
management of dyslexia.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I would assume, So I would assume it's pretty similar.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
What were some of the tactics that either you read
about Larry using or your son did, having me help,
not having people scream at you the no no.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Honestly, to his teacher's credits, when we got him into
the school, he learned how to do it now and
it was it was routine and it was going over
and he would explain some of the stuff, but it
was nothing, nothing that we did. It was all taught
to him on how to adjust himself and advocate for himself.
(11:25):
He will advocate for himself, like to the point where
you're like, you know, you're annoying people and he's like,
I don't care, I need to know, but you know what,
And the good news is for anybody who has a
kid who has it, like he's in college, like he
did great. He did great in high school once he
learned how to learn, he did great. And now he's
sitting in like big college classes and I mean, he
(11:47):
still has some accommodations in college, but you like, there
are times where you're like, you're never going to get
out of this mess, and he did. Now. I don't
know what Larry Mullen Junior was doing. I mean I
assume that he just had bono in Spanish for him
and that was good enough for him to get in.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
But in terms of his horizon, Larry we expect him
to be behind the kit once more. Absolutely, this isn't
his diagnosis. It may be something he's dealt with his
whole career, so he's figured out ways to manage it
as well. I'm guessing.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes, it seems like that. How do you learn to
count as an adult?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
What a frustrating diagnosis so late in life?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, oh yes, I mean the only I would say,
the only good part is he's probably well, I mean
he's known he's had this problem but his whole life.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
But I just read that he was recently diagnosed. He
didn't know he had calculia.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, I don't think he knew by name, but I'm
sure he knew he couldn't count, like he would hear
everybody else going like hide and seek one two three,
Larry played. He probably never went looking for anybody. He
probably just waited a while. It would just be like humm,
like he knew did he know numbers? He just couldn't
him in order.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I think the ordering and the new like the numerical
order sequencing he struggled with. And if you saw about
counting bars, that's what he's he's dealing with.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
But like as a kid, was he doing like one
seven fourteen, get ready or not? Nobody.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It just shows you that's that's a generational thing because
like back back then, it would have been had to
have been really really debilitating for that to be diagnosed
by anybody.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Oh, of course I would think so. I would think so.
And it's more and more prevalent now. Absolutely, I don't
think it's more and more prevalent for people to have it.
It's more and more prevalent for people to be diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah, people recognize that there's a problem with something and
then they send you to a specialist to get diagnosed.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Back in the day, you were you were in the
special led classes because you were quote one of the
stupid kids who couldn't.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Read says that due to high co morbidity with other
disability such as we mentioned dyslexia, but also ADHD. Some
researchers have suggested the possibility of subtypes of mathematical disabilities
with different underlying profiles and causes. So they say, they
discuss procedural concepts semantic memory, working memory.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Oh, working memories of delight?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
The I always said this. I hope my kid's not listening.
You want to feel like a genius. Remember the game
where you would lay all the cards out Memory and
you'd have to flip them over. Yeah, you want to
feel like the smartest person in the world. Play Memory
against my younger kid. He could have two jacks next
to each other and go like, oh, jack, and then
this one and then flip the other jack. He won't
(14:43):
remember that there are two jacks next to each other,
and then you see them and you go, got it,
and just flip them over one again.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I bet you were a joy.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I'm kicking your ass.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So Elliot didn't just yell when he was angry. He
yelled in celebration.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I'm doing well. I'm killing it at Memory. Where am
I going line for? Hi? Elliott in the morning? Hey, Hey,
who's this?
Speaker 4 (15:10):
My name's Kim.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Ask Kim. What can I do for you?
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Hey?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Y'all are talking about discalcoolia. My son had it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
He's twenty one now, right.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
It was horrible.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
How he I mean, how is he doing with it now?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Obviously he learned to adjust right, but he still struggles
with a lot of things. His job is difficult for
him because there's that he's an electrician. There's a lot
of math. He struggles, but he manages good. He's fully functionable.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
He in school teachers were horrible. It started in preschool
and they were like, you got to get your kid checked.
There's something wrong with him. And I took him to
the doctor and they said, oh, it's ADHD. We'll put
him on ye right, and he'll be okay. And he did.
He was in preschool at two and then in kindergarten
(16:09):
at five, and in kindergarten it was the same thing.
And I said, well, I don't know where to go
to get him tested. I don't know what to do.
You know, I need help, guidance something. Nobody wanted to help.
Nobody wanted to offer any advice until my son went
into second grade and his second grade teacher called and
she was like, listen, I know people, and we're going
(16:30):
to get you through it. And she did. She said,
we ended up at Uba to get him tested. Came back.
He has dyslexia, discalculia, and he does have ADHD, has brainsists.
He's just got a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
And Frederick County, Yeah, Frederick County schools here in Virginia
didn't want to do the ipev uh. The school.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, no, I know what you're talking about, had.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Him, but I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Yeah, So they didn't want to do it until we
threatened a lawsuit, and after that they were all for it.
So it was really really difficult for him. But once
he hit that second once he got that second grade teacher,
she was amazing and she got us through everything. And
he never went to college. He never he hated school.
It was difficult, obviously, no kidding. So yeah, you know,
(17:27):
I feel bad as a mom because I used to
get so frustrated with him sitting there. I'd be like, dude, listen.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So funny please. Yeah no, that part I get, and
you do. And I will say this as much as
much fun as I'll make fun of my kid, I
couldn't be more proud of it before figuring it out
and learning how to do it and doing well. So yeah, no,
doing great.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Yeah, absolutely, But it's like my oldest, you know, he
flew through school, he was great, and we just we
didn't understand why my youngest was having such a difficult time.
But like I said, his second grade teacher, she was
amazing and she got a.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Language language language. No, that's great, that's great. No, And
I'm glad, and I'm glad by the way. I want
to say that when when my kid was going through this,
we learned boys show symptoms, I guess, earlier than girls.
Now that's not a hard and fast rule, but by
and large, kid, boys will show it at a younger
(18:30):
age than girls will. We'll show signs of it, right,
and again not a hard and fast rule, but they
do what they do. Say. Boys will show symptoms earlier
than girls.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Billy writes, I've always thought I was dyslexic, but it
was only with numbers. And now there's a name for
my condition.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Wait, so they didn't know they had discalculia, no, or discalcula.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Thought they were dyslexic, but it only applied to the numbers. Yeah,
so does it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It's got to live on that on that branch. Oh,
we know that, right. But so they just thought it
was dyslexia, not dis calculia.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I don't know if they were any sort of that
Billy saw. I'd see this is what Billy's are writing now,
I'd see numbers spatially, which made basic edition difficult. Yes,
now there's something too that came up when trying to
do some basic research just now numerical stroop effect. So
(19:27):
I guess the stroop effect that people are most common
with is when a word is written down in a
certain color ink, but it doesn't match the word.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Wait, so in a blue pant.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
And you read how that can totally throw people off.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Wait in a blue pant. If I wrote the.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Word red, yes, they they just want to say blue.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
But no, it's because.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You're your brain doesn't work that way. But for the
numerical this one's also. I can't imagine how frustrating this
would be. If the font size of numbers is slightly
incongruent yep, and the lower number is written slightly bigger,
(20:23):
the person who suffers automatically things, that's the higher number.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Oh so if I wrote seventeen here in two there, Yes,
you think the two is the larger number because it
is actually because it's written larger. Do you know the
hell I would have unleashed at home? Jesus, that's us too.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So think about that, because in your head you may
be picturing and Elliott wrote it down. And that's the
best way to imagine this. Because if you're reading a
printout from school or a worksheet, chances are the fonts
are going to be pretty uniform because it's a computer.
But a lot of math is show your work, so
there's handwriting involved and there's not a uniformity when it
(21:09):
comes to the human ten you know what, we're writing
it down?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Help because I get what Billy's saying about spatial is
my kids started with graph paper so that everything was
in line. But I do know for math, he wouldn't
use paper. He would write it all on his desk,
on the actual desk, yep. And they have to clean
his desk, but he would write everything on his desk.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I've never heard of that at all.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And the teachers were cool with that as Luxy cleaned
it up at the end of the day, taught him
that way.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Oh really yeah, Now like he's now now he's fine.
Well I want to say fine, but now he's back
to paper and stuff. But it started by writing everything
down on his desk. I was like, we're not doing
that at home. Line one real quick, Hi Elliott the morning.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Good morning.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Hi. Who is this Hi there?
Speaker 5 (22:09):
This is Amanda calling from Frederick.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes, Amanda, why are we singing?
Speaker 5 (22:15):
It's because I'm so excited to be on I'm a
long time listener, first time caller. I love you guys,
have been listening to forever.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh thank you. What can I do for you? Sure?
Speaker 5 (22:23):
Well, I have two things I'm calling about. I'm a
teacher of dyslexia out here in Frederick, and I know
a little bit about just calculate too, So that's one
reason i'm calling, right.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Yeah, And you're right. So a lot of.
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Kids need to do that writing on the desk. They
need to have that sensory interaction as they're learning things.
It's what helps their brain connect to what they're learning.
So we sometimes have them write in shaving cream, or
we have them write on textured paper so that they
can feel how the numbers or the letters are being
created and formed. So it helps their brain to understand
(22:54):
what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Interesting, Yeah, because all I know is that, like my
kid was taught just write it on the desk, Like
I'm not when you do that at school.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yeah, we do lots of things with like glitter pens
or different kinds of markers or whiteboards or anything that
has like a different sensory experience for the kiddos. It
just helps them connect to the information that they're learning.
A little bit more clearly.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Right, how long have you been teaching? How long have
you been teaching kids with this.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
About the last six or seven years.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
I've been teaching for twenty nine years. I've gotten involved
with some of the dyslexia programs in the last six
or seven years.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Good for you, Good for you.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, and well, I also no, go ahead, go ahead ahead,
I also am I'm going to change the subject. But
I want to go back to Tyler and the Perfect
Truffle because I am one of the my side Hustle
is one of the tour guides on the Maryland double
decker open bus that is driving all over Frederick and
given out tours. So I wanted to invite you and
(23:53):
the whole class to come out and hop on our
big yellow bus and we'll stop by the Perfect Truffle
and get you a big old cup of hot chocolate.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Drive.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I may take you up on that good now, don't
hold me to it, but that may that may happen.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Well, And I know you're you're I know you're limping
around right now, but we'll get you on that bus.
We'll get you up those steps.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
All right, Very good, very good. I appreciate last last
thing though, going back to dyslexia and dyscalculia and whatever
you say it and stuff like that, the I do
remember like at an early age, you feel like there
is no like you've hit a dead end, like your
your kid is doomed, and that it doesn't get better.
But it does. It does. Like once once it's stats
(24:33):
for them, it gets so much better.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
Yeah, And that's the big thing with that is that
you have to have a relationship with the teacher where
the teacher recognizes the struggle and says, I see where
you are, I see how this is hard. I'm going
to help you get through this because I recognize this
hurdle that you have to jump. And I think it's
really frustrating for parents if they don't have that connection
with that teacher who says, let's let's work through this
(24:58):
together and you you know, put sand on a paper
plate at home and work through the numbers and do
these different things at home, because I'm doing that at
school too, And so that teamwork capacity is really what
makes that learning click on or that light switch turn
on for the kid. And when it does, you're right,
it's just like, oh, I never thought I was going
to get here. I never thought I was going to
jump over this big speed bump.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Right, No, that's awesome. Good for you, all right, very good.
I appreciate it. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you.
What percentage of people do they believe have discalculia?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
All right, it does sound wrong when you say it.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
It does because there's part of me that on's say, dyscalcula.
But I believe it's discalculia. I should know this because
my kid has has It's not a severe case, but
he's got this this Yeah. Oh wow, Yeah, but it's not.
It's not it's not as severe as the case I'm
going to bring up.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They said six percent of the population is found to
be affected by a specific mathematics related difficulty, So it
doesn't I don't know if it gets down into exactly
those who are.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Dealing with discalculia. So I was reading about first of all,
am I saying it right? I should really know how
it's calculia.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I don't know why I keep wanting to say discalcula
because that sounds more natural. It does, But I think
it's I think it's discalcula. And again I feel like
I should know.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Maybe it's also because you're halfway through the work.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Because I feel like I'm stumbling as I get closer.
Just calculia. Oh, I got it a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, culia, you're saying again, it is different than what
you're saying, this calculia. So it's discalculia, this calculia.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I'm dyslassic. Will you find me somebody who either has
it or has a kid who has it, and say.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
It for me again, this calculia. Yeah, this calculia.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Cue cue cool Oh Julia Jets, it's cool to have
it dis calculiahia.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
It's worse. Just call it math dyslexia.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
That would be much easier to say. But if somebody
has it or their kid has it, Kristen please eight
six six to Elliott eight six six two three five
five four six eight, And I do believe that there
are varying degrees of math dyslexia.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So are people who have dyscalculia? Are they also dyslexic?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I don't know. I don't I think like I think,
while you are getting diagnosed with having it, they'll say
you fall on the dyslexic scale, but that it manifests
itself in numbers. So I don't know if they will
say discount coolia is discount Now, discount coolia is a
(02:35):
form of dyslexia, and you just get lumped in with
the dyslexic crew, but it really is numbers related.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Yeah, they talk about like young children would most specifically
show this and school age kids, and then they talk
about adults. Symptoms in adults include trouble with word problems.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay, Diane, I don't think that this is you. You
do have problems with word problems.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
You know what, when I see a word problem, I'm like,
I'll never figure that out. The I automatically just say
I won't. I won't know how to do that.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Like my kid struggles with with word problems. But he's
also been diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
With this, they said, measuring quantities like for cooking baking recipes.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Now he's good with that.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Understanding and converting fractions, and it takes me a minute
measuring items, breaking down problems into multiple steps to solve them.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Do you know who Larry Mullen Jr. Is drummer for
you too? Exactly, So he just has been recently diagnosed
so his kid. So let me back up his kid's dyslexic. Right,
So he was recently diagnosed with having discalculia. Two things
about him, the son or Larry About Larry About Larry.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
As a junior, I guess he's a son as well.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So he struggles adding numbers. He also can't count.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
And this is recently developed.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
He said that he like, he said that a lot
of people while he's he's a drummer, right, and so
he said that a lot of people would come up
to him and go, hey, why do you look like
you're in so much pain while you're drumming? And he
was like, I can't count bars.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So no, it's like a struggle. He has to think
really hard.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
He said, counting for him is the equivalent of climbing
Mount Everest. Oh my god, that counting bars is such
a he can't count. That it is such and I
realized that sounds asinine to say, right, that's got to
be a severe form. It's got to be like my
kid can count. He could do math? Is it hard? Yes?
(04:47):
Did he have to be taught? Did he have to
learn how to do math a very very specific way? Absolutely?
And thank god he had a math teacher in school
where he was able to this one teacher was able
to kind of break through my kids head and help
him understand how to do it and deal with word
problems and stuff which he struggles with. But to make
it make sense now. I also don't think he's as
(05:09):
bad as as Larry Mullen Junior. But Larry Mullen ju
Junior was like, I can't count. I can't count.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
I said oftentimes for like teens and adults that counting
backwards is really difficult too.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Oh, I don't know if I've ever asked my kid
to count backwards.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
So Larry didn't do any of the Sphere shows, and
it was at the time thought that it was because
of next surgery, but I just looked back and they
said next surgery and other ailments.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Oh, pardon.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Was this part of his decision not to play with
the band?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I wonder, Wow, I know that he was. So there's
a there's a documentary that was done that he did
all the music for, and it's about like he and
his wife are trying to open a school in New
York along with a group of people who have kids
that are dyslexic in the schools that's strictly for dyslexic kids.
And so there's this document men and he did all
(06:01):
of the music for it. So I don't know if
he was also working on that at the time, because
he talks about how hugely personal. This is but I
guess I'm going through all this. He went and got
himself diagnosed. The only issue I have is they keep
talking about it as being a learning disability. I'd like
to see the writers call it a learning difference. We
don't use that word anymore, although I still do and
(06:22):
Jackie gets mad at me. But I don't know if
that was why. I don't know if it's because he
was working on all that or he was dealing with
it himself.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
But he did actually have surgery, that is true. Oh yeah,
it was a physical problem with his neck that had
him set out the entire residency. But for them to
say other ailmen's at the time, you just think, oh,
is it connected to the surgery. Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Or maybe he was like, I can't do the math
on how long it's going to take me to recover
so I can go be a part of the shows.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Or maybe and this would take somebody who knows you
two inside and out. Maybe over so many decades of
a career. He hinted at this, but the diagnosis finally
came to him recently.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
It's great.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
So maybe he was like a drummer who would talk
about it and these fans from certain interviews can put
the pieces together. Now.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Where there were cards where he would have come out
and said I can't count.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
He said, there's emotional symptoms that go hand in hand
with it too.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Oh, I believe that. I believe that as an adult,
if you said to someone I can't count, they don't
patch on the back and say congratulations.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Said when faced with situations where math is necessary, people
could display anxiety, agitation, fear, yes, physical symptoms of any
of the above, nausea, vomiting, sweating, stomach aches too.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But think about how hard that would be. I mean,
forget simple math, right, which would which you could see
that causing all of those things. How about not just
being able to count?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Right? And those can be all internal and then you
have external horses that exacerbate those feelings. Because I'm sure,
and I'm not picking on Elliott or wanting to make
this assumption, but before your son was diagnosed, did it
also frustrate you?
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Oh my god, yes, yes, see, Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And did you ever let that frustration show?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Oh? I yelled at him. Yeah, because you want to go,
oh Jesus Christ, please, we're not We're not, We're not
doing calculus here, let's go right now. He could count,
so I didn't have that where I was like, no, four.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Five, which is usually helpful.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
No, no, I would, but yeah, no, of course of
course I would.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So what was Bono saying to Larry.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Jesus he was a dick? Oh my god, can you
come in at the right time?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Is that the origin of that very famous miss Spanish count?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Oh? Because Larry was like, I don't know it in English?
Do you want me to know it in Spanish? Dummy?
Don't you get off your timptoes? I bet it is
two fourteen? But yeah, no, I would, we'd get I mean,
That's how I mean, ultimately, that's how Jackie and I
(09:28):
ended up having to get my kid tested. Was we'd
sit there and go, we can't do this like we
are it is so frustrated. Well, I mean he was
falling behind at regular school, but it was so frustrating.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Were you told by a teacher to maybe have this
looked at by a specialist or did you bring him
to specialist without that nudging?
Speaker 1 (09:47):
No? So the real answer to that was he was
he was falling behind, right, and so we went to
the school to try to get accommodations for him, but
they they said, he's still learning, so we won't give
him accommodations. We're like, yeah, he's learned, but he's fallen
way to the back of the pack here and like
and not doing well at all. And they're like, well,
(10:09):
we can't give you a commodation. And there were some
teachers that were like, he needs accommodation. Yeah, but we
couldn't get the county to do it. So they said,
unless you could get a doctor to do it. So
we took him to like I forget what they call him,
some educational psycho something or other. And when we met
with him, he was the first one that was like,
while we're doing the test and waiting for the results,
(10:32):
you might want to start looking into some schools that
specialize in this. So and then when the results came
back that we were like, he would have he would
have never made it out.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Is the management of it of dyscalculia similar to the
management of dyslexia.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I would assume, So I would assume it's pretty similar.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
What were some of the tactics that either you read
about Larry using or your son did, having me help,
not having people scream at you the no no.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Honestly, to his teacher's credits, when we got him into
the school, he learned how to do it now and
it was it was routine and it was going over
and he would explain some of the stuff, but it
was nothing, nothing that we did. It was all taught
to him on how to adjust himself and advocate for himself.
(11:25):
He will advocate for himself, like to the point where
you're like, you know, you're annoying people and he's like,
I don't care, I need to know, but you know what,
And the good news is for anybody who has a
kid who has it, like he's in college, like he
did great. He did great in high school once he
learned how to learn, he did great. And now he's
sitting in like big college classes and I mean, he
(11:47):
still has some accommodations in college, but you like, there
are times where you're like, you're never going to get
out of this mess, and he did. Now. I don't
know what Larry Mullen Junior was doing. I mean I
assume that he just had bono in Spanish for him
and that was good enough for him to get in.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
But in terms of his horizon, Larry we expect him
to be behind the kit once more. Absolutely, this isn't
his diagnosis. It may be something he's dealt with his
whole career, so he's figured out ways to manage it
as well. I'm guessing.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yes, it seems like that. How do you learn to
count as an adult?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
What a frustrating diagnosis so late in life?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, oh yes, I mean the only I would say,
the only good part is he's probably well, I mean
he's known he's had this problem but his whole life.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
But I just read that he was recently diagnosed. He
didn't know he had calculia.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, I don't think he knew by name, but I'm
sure he knew he couldn't count, like he would hear
everybody else going like hide and seek one two three,
Larry played. He probably never went looking for anybody. He
probably just waited a while. It would just be like humm,
like he knew did he know numbers? He just couldn't
him in order.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I think the ordering and the new like the numerical
order sequencing he struggled with. And if you saw about
counting bars, that's what he's he's dealing with.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
But like as a kid, was he doing like one
seven fourteen, get ready or not? Nobody.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
It just shows you that's that's a generational thing because
like back back then, it would have been had to
have been really really debilitating for that to be diagnosed
by anybody.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Oh, of course I would think so. I would think so.
And it's more and more prevalent now. Absolutely, I don't
think it's more and more prevalent for people to have it.
It's more and more prevalent for people to be diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah, people recognize that there's a problem with something and
then they send you to a specialist to get diagnosed.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Back in the day, you were you were in the
special led classes because you were quote one of the
stupid kids who couldn't.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Read says that due to high co morbidity with other
disability such as we mentioned dyslexia, but also ADHD. Some
researchers have suggested the possibility of subtypes of mathematical disabilities
with different underlying profiles and causes. So they say, they
discuss procedural concepts semantic memory, working memory.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Oh, working memories of delight?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
The I always said this. I hope my kid's not listening.
You want to feel like a genius. Remember the game
where you would lay all the cards out Memory and
you'd have to flip them over. Yeah, you want to
feel like the smartest person in the world. Play Memory
against my younger kid. He could have two jacks next
to each other and go like, oh, jack, and then
this one and then flip the other jack. He won't
(14:43):
remember that there are two jacks next to each other,
and then you see them and you go, got it,
and just flip them over one again.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I bet you were a joy.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I'm kicking your ass.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So Elliot didn't just yell when he was angry. He
yelled in celebration.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I'm doing well. I'm killing it at Memory. Where am
I going line for? Hi? Elliott in the morning? Hey, Hey,
who's this?
Speaker 4 (15:10):
My name's Kim.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Ask Kim. What can I do for you?
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Hey?
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Y'all are talking about discalcoolia. My son had it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
He's twenty one now, right.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
It was horrible.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
How he I mean, how is he doing with it now?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Obviously he learned to adjust right, but he still struggles
with a lot of things. His job is difficult for
him because there's that he's an electrician. There's a lot
of math. He struggles, but he manages good. He's fully functionable.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
He in school teachers were horrible. It started in preschool
and they were like, you got to get your kid checked.
There's something wrong with him. And I took him to
the doctor and they said, oh, it's ADHD. We'll put
him on ye right, and he'll be okay. And he did.
He was in preschool at two and then in kindergarten
(16:09):
at five, and in kindergarten it was the same thing.
And I said, well, I don't know where to go
to get him tested. I don't know what to do.
You know, I need help, guidance something. Nobody wanted to help.
Nobody wanted to offer any advice until my son went
into second grade and his second grade teacher called and
she was like, listen, I know people, and we're going
(16:30):
to get you through it. And she did. She said,
we ended up at Uba to get him tested. Came back.
He has dyslexia, discalculia, and he does have ADHD, has brainsists.
He's just got a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
And Frederick County, Yeah, Frederick County schools here in Virginia
didn't want to do the ipev uh. The school.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, no, I know what you're talking about, had.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Him, but I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Yeah, So they didn't want to do it until we
threatened a lawsuit, and after that they were all for it.
So it was really really difficult for him. But once
he hit that second once he got that second grade teacher,
she was amazing and she got us through everything. And
he never went to college. He never he hated school.
It was difficult, obviously, no kidding. So yeah, you know,
(17:27):
I feel bad as a mom because I used to
get so frustrated with him sitting there. I'd be like, dude, listen.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So funny please. Yeah no, that part I get, and
you do. And I will say this as much as
much fun as I'll make fun of my kid, I
couldn't be more proud of it before figuring it out
and learning how to do it and doing well. So yeah, no,
doing great.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Yeah, absolutely, But it's like my oldest, you know, he
flew through school, he was great, and we just we
didn't understand why my youngest was having such a difficult time.
But like I said, his second grade teacher, she was
amazing and she got a.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Language language language. No, that's great, that's great. No, And
I'm glad, and I'm glad by the way. I want
to say that when when my kid was going through this,
we learned boys show symptoms, I guess, earlier than girls.
Now that's not a hard and fast rule, but by
and large, kid, boys will show it at a younger
(18:30):
age than girls will. We'll show signs of it, right,
and again not a hard and fast rule, but they
do what they do. Say. Boys will show symptoms earlier
than girls.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Billy writes, I've always thought I was dyslexic, but it
was only with numbers. And now there's a name for
my condition.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Wait, so they didn't know they had discalculia, no, or discalcula.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Thought they were dyslexic, but it only applied to the numbers. Yeah,
so does it.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It's got to live on that on that branch. Oh,
we know that, right. But so they just thought it
was dyslexia, not dis calculia.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I don't know if they were any sort of that
Billy saw. I'd see this is what Billy's are writing now,
I'd see numbers spatially, which made basic edition difficult. Yes,
now there's something too that came up when trying to
do some basic research just now numerical stroop effect. So
(19:27):
I guess the stroop effect that people are most common
with is when a word is written down in a
certain color ink, but it doesn't match the word.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Wait, so in a blue pant.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
And you read how that can totally throw people off.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Wait in a blue pant. If I wrote the.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Word red, yes, they they just want to say blue.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
But no, it's because.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You're your brain doesn't work that way. But for the
numerical this one's also. I can't imagine how frustrating this
would be. If the font size of numbers is slightly
incongruent yep, and the lower number is written slightly bigger,
(20:23):
the person who suffers automatically things, that's the higher number.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Oh so if I wrote seventeen here in two there, Yes,
you think the two is the larger number because it
is actually because it's written larger. Do you know the
hell I would have unleashed at home? Jesus, that's us too.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So think about that, because in your head you may
be picturing and Elliott wrote it down. And that's the
best way to imagine this. Because if you're reading a
printout from school or a worksheet, chances are the fonts
are going to be pretty uniform because it's a computer.
But a lot of math is show your work, so
there's handwriting involved and there's not a uniformity when it
(21:09):
comes to the human ten you know what, we're writing
it down?
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Help because I get what Billy's saying about spatial is
my kids started with graph paper so that everything was
in line. But I do know for math, he wouldn't
use paper. He would write it all on his desk,
on the actual desk, yep. And they have to clean
his desk, but he would write everything on his desk.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I've never heard of that at all.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And the teachers were cool with that as Luxy cleaned
it up at the end of the day, taught him
that way.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Oh really yeah, Now like he's now now he's fine.
Well I want to say fine, but now he's back
to paper and stuff. But it started by writing everything
down on his desk. I was like, we're not doing
that at home. Line one real quick, Hi Elliott the morning.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
Good morning.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Hi. Who is this Hi there?
Speaker 5 (22:09):
This is Amanda calling from Frederick.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yes, Amanda, why are we singing?
Speaker 5 (22:15):
It's because I'm so excited to be on I'm a
long time listener, first time caller. I love you guys,
have been listening to forever.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh thank you. What can I do for you? Sure?
Speaker 5 (22:23):
Well, I have two things I'm calling about. I'm a
teacher of dyslexia out here in Frederick, and I know
a little bit about just calculate too, So that's one
reason i'm calling, right.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Yeah, And you're right. So a lot of.
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Kids need to do that writing on the desk. They
need to have that sensory interaction as they're learning things.
It's what helps their brain connect to what they're learning.
So we sometimes have them write in shaving cream, or
we have them write on textured paper so that they
can feel how the numbers or the letters are being
created and formed. So it helps their brain to understand
(22:54):
what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Interesting, Yeah, because all I know is that, like my
kid was taught just write it on the desk, Like
I'm not when you do that at school.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yeah, we do lots of things with like glitter pens
or different kinds of markers or whiteboards or anything that
has like a different sensory experience for the kiddos. It
just helps them connect to the information that they're learning.
A little bit more clearly.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Right, how long have you been teaching? How long have
you been teaching kids with this.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
About the last six or seven years.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
I've been teaching for twenty nine years. I've gotten involved
with some of the dyslexia programs in the last six
or seven years.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Good for you, Good for you.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, and well, I also no, go ahead, go ahead ahead,
I also am I'm going to change the subject. But
I want to go back to Tyler and the Perfect
Truffle because I am one of the my side Hustle
is one of the tour guides on the Maryland double
decker open bus that is driving all over Frederick and
given out tours. So I wanted to invite you and
(23:53):
the whole class to come out and hop on our
big yellow bus and we'll stop by the Perfect Truffle
and get you a big old cup of hot chocolate.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Drive.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I may take you up on that good now, don't
hold me to it, but that may that may happen.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Well, And I know you're you're I know you're limping
around right now, but we'll get you on that bus.
We'll get you up those steps.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
All right, Very good, very good. I appreciate last last
thing though, going back to dyslexia and dyscalculia and whatever
you say it and stuff like that, the I do
remember like at an early age, you feel like there
is no like you've hit a dead end, like your
your kid is doomed, and that it doesn't get better.
But it does. It does. Like once once it's stats
(24:33):
for them, it gets so much better.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
Yeah, And that's the big thing with that is that
you have to have a relationship with the teacher where
the teacher recognizes the struggle and says, I see where
you are, I see how this is hard. I'm going
to help you get through this because I recognize this
hurdle that you have to jump. And I think it's
really frustrating for parents if they don't have that connection
with that teacher who says, let's let's work through this
(24:58):
together and you you know, put sand on a paper
plate at home and work through the numbers and do
these different things at home, because I'm doing that at
school too, And so that teamwork capacity is really what
makes that learning click on or that light switch turn
on for the kid. And when it does, you're right,
it's just like, oh, I never thought I was going
to get here. I never thought I was going to
jump over this big speed bump.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Right, No, that's awesome. Good for you, all right, very good.
I appreciate it. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you.
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.