Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Scott Payne. How are you welcome to the Vinie Penn Project.
Appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm doing great, well, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Well. Look, I work with Dave Brown, who's a great guy,
especially on my special shows. This is a Patriots Day show.
But I'll tell you if he floated by me, I
got a guy he's known as the Hillbilly, Donnie Brasco,
I would have wanted John Anyway, This story, this story
is amazing. I can't wait to read the book Retired
(00:30):
Undercover FBI and I don't even know you know you
infiltrated this growing American Nazi group, the Base. Then again,
now that I'm thinking about it, I covered a couple
of stories involving the Bass and you did the Donnie
Brasco thing. You you went undercovered, befriended, right yep? And
(00:53):
did you if I remember in the movie correctly, and
I mean, and we'll get into Pale Horse, how I
went undercovered to expose America's Nazis. But if I remember
Donny Brosco, didn't Johnny Depp what he ultimately struggled with
was I started liking this guy, understanding this guy, having
empathy for this guy, any of that with you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, on certain cases, but when I'm dealing with the
neo nazis not so much.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I mean there is this. You know,
it's a crazy thing to say. I can't believe I'm
saying on radio and I've been in radio a long time.
You know, Mobster versus Nazi, huge difference. Yes, crazy statement
to make, but there really is. There's not as much
to I don't know that there could possibly be an
(01:42):
endearing quality. There's a lot of delusion. You had to
be dealing with a lot of delusional people.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yes, it was. It was different for sure. In the
base particularly there's there was a lot of younger guys,
so you get what I saw. Things I thought were
like people that were out cast, didn't have a partner,
probably been bullied, didn't belong to anything. And yeah, there's
some crazy ideologies, I mean, from Hitler still being alive
(02:12):
and hollow Earth with giant white men waiting to come
back to concave Earth and all kinds of crazy stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Uh do you mind my asking? I know central to
the story to the book Pale Horse is a Halloween
Halloween Night twenty nineteen, but how many years? What the
time span was here you for that case, well, for
(02:41):
you being the hillbilly Donnie Brasco. How long you did
it for?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh? I was. I was in law enforcement for twenty
eight years and I started working under cover in nineteen
ninety six, and I did it, you know, off and
on until I retired in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Wow. Okay, And how long has the base been around
or had they been around by the time you worked
on them.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
They had been around for a while at that point
in time. The accelerationist groups, which is what we termed them,
and they termed themselves. Yes, we're kind of newer. You
had Adam Woffen, which was created by a guy who
wrote a book, and that book kind of he's a
long time white supredices of that book kind of is
(03:24):
the culture. It's called siege, so they call it siege culture. Yeah,
the base have been around for a little while, and
it'd actually been infiltrated to a very minimal extent by
a journalists and outed some people. But by the time
we got in. Let's just stay that every time the
base got infiltrated, they got better with their operational security
(03:45):
and being smarter about how not to get.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Infiltrated, and well, the reason I even ask time frame
because it's not like it should matter. But there are
a lot of people who they want to look at
the rise of any neo Nazi group nowadays as a
direct result of a Trump presidency. That's why they don't
want to believe they're still around. And even if you
(04:12):
frame it the way we kind of just did, there,
oh there's been an up tech or it's grown, there
are many who will chalk that up to the Trump presidency.
I don't know if he does a good enough job
of distancing himself the way that he should. But have
you run into any of that.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
In some groups. But again, so let me explain it.
The acceleration is they don't like the government at all.
They don't like Trump, they don't like anything. They don't
believe that there is a political solution to save the
white race, and they believe that society is going to
collapse on his own or either from man made events,
and they want to speed that up. So they want
to cause that chaos. I mean, one of the guys
(04:52):
in the group that I infiltrated said that he actually
voted for Hillary Clinton when she ran and I was like, why,
here's a neo Nazi, but he's accelerationist, and I'm like, whine.
He said, well, if she gets in, usually there's a
less police force to fund the police type stuff, riot,
weaker border, and they just anything costs chaos, and that's
(05:13):
what they want because they believe. Now there's not a
lot of forethought or afterthought, but they believe that when
that day happens, that they're going to come down and
clean up. And most white supremacy groups that I've infiltrated
or worked on, it always ends with them wanting their
own f no state, whether that be a section of
the mountains or whatever, but it just be off white.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
This is jaw dropping stuff. What's that term you used,
but an accelerationist that I'm assuming you know that term
means someone who wants to ratchet things up, like their
sole goal is getting next level. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
No, you're correct. There's just to speed up the speed
up the collapse of society so they can come in
and clean up and have their own off white.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I can't believe there's a name for that. That's terrifying
in and of itself. And again, Mama, Scott paying right now,
a retired FBI agent twenty eight years in law enforcement.
And also the book is Pale Horse, How I went
undercover to expose America's Nazis. Now I did see, you've
got a wife, you got two daughters. I don't want
(06:18):
to get too personal here as far as ages, but
I got asked the question, was that home waiting for
you while you're sleeping in a shangri la with a
group of neo Nazis were sacrificing goats out in fields?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yes, and then it was the next Sunday. I was
probably on stage playing and singing because I'm a musician,
So yeah, it was all there.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Oh, I didn't know you were a musician too. So
is there a band name or a solo?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
No? No, I've just been playing at my church, you know.
But then if I gig, I usually gig by myself
or you know, a friend or something.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Well, were there phone calls? I mean having little girls
at home? I mean I've got a daughter myself. I can't.
I don't know if I've gone to day not in
at least talking to her? Where there did you have
to go stretches of time? Was there a burner phone,
you know in Donny Brosco. You see him. I hate
to give up, but I mean they're calling you the
hillbilly Donnie Brosco. So what can I do?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
He'd fight to tell joe I had to tell Joey.
He's a mentor and a friend. I'm like, hey, I
didn't pick that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, well it works. I mean it does convey what
you've done here. And for a guy named Vinnie, uh,
it gives me a lot to work with. I mean,
he would find payphones there, there was a time set
that he'd call and connect. Did you have any of
that or were you just like, We're going to go
along stretch here, girls, I'll see you, you know in
(07:45):
a month. How did that work?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Uh? It ebbed and flowed, especially depending on the case.
But yeah, I mean by the time I was doing
my undercovers, we had cell phones and stuff, you know,
so maybe not at the exact time to call, but yeah,
I tried to call. And of course I wouldn't use
my undercover phone to call my wife's fault, you.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Know, so I didn't know if there were burner phones involved,
I would imagine, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
No, That's what I did early on early on. I
did that just out of my own pocket so I
could call her and not you know, jeopardize any operational security.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, and how did things end as far as this
particular story is concerned. All right, I suppose read the
book right pick up code named palel Horse.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah. Uh, they we we uncovered a bunch of murder
plots and some other things like shooting up some rallies
and uh uh, all the all the FBI case teams
and myself. We we were on the timeline because we
knew one day it was going to be the day,
and we were able to get everything we needed for
the US Attorney's office. And several several members got arrested
(08:49):
and everybody put guilty.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
They did. And we're the names the murder plots, this
list of names. Would they surprise any of my listeners?
Would they surprise me? Or if you told me, then
take a couple of guesses. Would I probably get it right?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
If you looked around the Georgia area, Atlanta area and
you looked at some liberal journalists, you could probably name
some off. Yeah, they were already forming a list. It
was again, it was a little bit shocking to me
when I found out right. I thought we were going
to put up flyers and stickers and stuff, and I
go down to the farm in Georgia and I find
out that we're actually planning on murdering somebody. So yeah, yeah,
(09:28):
a little different.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
How did you finesse? Be totally cool? You know, don't
even our Channi, But I have so many tells, like
I wouldn't want to play poker with you. You've got no tells.
How did you? I mean, I appreciate the fact that, yeah,
twenty eight years in law enforcement, that doesn't and an
FBI special agent. That doesn't mean you know, there's acting
(09:54):
involved here. You were playing a role. You probably had
another name, right, You weren't going by Scott Payne.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
No, I was not. Yeah, I have another name and
all that good stuff. But I'm not going to say
my response is always the best. It's like when I
when he said, hey, we're gonna essentially we're gonna whack
some people, I went, huh, well that's way different than
putting up flyers. That's what That's what I said out loud.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Did you ever feel like anyone might be onto you
might be you know, did you ever have a nervous
walk with somebody where you thought this walk might end
with a confrontation.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Oh many times throughout the years. Absolutely, yeah, But you're
always trying to stay four steps ahead, you know, so
as my I coined, my friend coined the term another
great undercover. But he's like, look, man, it's a game
of chess, you gotta We're trying to think four moves
ahead and be ready for anything to throw them at you.
So yeah, yeah, it's a it's a wild ride.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It is, it is, and it's a it sounds like
a must read too. Code name Pale Horse, how I
went undercover to expose America's Nazi Scott Pain. He says,
right here, a true American hero sounds about right to me.
I would imagine retired because said you are also a
swat team operator, an instructor for firearms and tactics. You're
still working in that capacity, or if you called it
(11:09):
quits on all fronts, lost work.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yes, sir, I want to keep the rush golf. But
there is an organization called Alert and it is based
out of Texas. It is the national standard for training
law enforcement and active shooter response. And I'm gonna I'm
blessed enough to be an adjunct instructor with them, so
you put in for schools and if you get them,
you go teach.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's him, But sad to say, significantly more uncomfortable than
saying there's a huge difference between mobsters and Nazis, which
I said earlier. Sad to say, that's important work that's
going on there, because school shouldn't be getting shot up
at all. They sure as hell did. Weren't when I
was a kid, but it's sadly commonplace now. That's important work.
(11:54):
Appreciate what you do. Appreciate you being part of today's show.
Can't wait to read the book. Man.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Thank you very much for the time.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Thank you very much for what you do.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
All right,
Scott Payne. How are you welcome to the Vinie Penn Project.
Appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm doing great, well, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Well. Look, I work with Dave Brown, who's a great guy,
especially on my special shows. This is a Patriots Day show.
But I'll tell you if he floated by me, I
got a guy he's known as the Hillbilly, Donnie Brasco,
I would have wanted John Anyway, This story, this story
is amazing. I can't wait to read the book Retired
(00:30):
Undercover FBI and I don't even know you know you
infiltrated this growing American Nazi group, the Base. Then again,
now that I'm thinking about it, I covered a couple
of stories involving the Bass and you did the Donnie
Brasco thing. You you went undercovered, befriended, right yep? And
(00:53):
did you if I remember in the movie correctly, and
I mean, and we'll get into Pale Horse, how I
went undercovered to expose America's Nazis. But if I remember
Donny Brosco, didn't Johnny Depp what he ultimately struggled with
was I started liking this guy, understanding this guy, having
empathy for this guy, any of that with you.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yes, on certain cases, but when I'm dealing with the
neo nazis not so much.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I mean there is this. You know,
it's a crazy thing to say. I can't believe I'm
saying on radio and I've been in radio a long time.
You know, Mobster versus Nazi, huge difference. Yes, crazy statement
to make, but there really is. There's not as much
to I don't know that there could possibly be an
(01:42):
endearing quality. There's a lot of delusion. You had to
be dealing with a lot of delusional people.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yes, it was. It was different for sure. In the
base particularly there's there was a lot of younger guys,
so you get what I saw. Things I thought were
like people that were out cast, didn't have a partner,
probably been bullied, didn't belong to anything. And yeah, there's
some crazy ideologies, I mean, from Hitler still being alive
(02:12):
and hollow Earth with giant white men waiting to come
back to concave Earth and all kinds of crazy stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Uh do you mind my asking? I know central to
the story to the book Pale Horse is a Halloween
Halloween Night twenty nineteen, but how many years? What the
time span was here you for that case, well, for
(02:41):
you being the hillbilly Donnie Brasco. How long you did
it for?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Oh? I was. I was in law enforcement for twenty
eight years and I started working under cover in nineteen
ninety six, and I did it, you know, off and
on until I retired in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Wow. Okay, And how long has the base been around
or had they been around by the time you worked
on them.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
They had been around for a while at that point
in time. The accelerationist groups, which is what we termed them,
and they termed themselves. Yes, we're kind of newer. You
had Adam Woffen, which was created by a guy who
wrote a book, and that book kind of he's a
long time white supredices of that book kind of is
(03:24):
the culture. It's called siege, so they call it siege culture. Yeah,
the base have been around for a little while, and
it'd actually been infiltrated to a very minimal extent by
a journalists and outed some people. But by the time
we got in. Let's just stay that every time the
base got infiltrated, they got better with their operational security
(03:45):
and being smarter about how not to get.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Infiltrated, and well, the reason I even ask time frame
because it's not like it should matter. But there are
a lot of people who they want to look at
the rise of any neo Nazi group nowadays as a
direct result of a Trump presidency. That's why they don't
want to believe they're still around. And even if you
(04:12):
frame it the way we kind of just did, there,
oh there's been an up tech or it's grown, there
are many who will chalk that up to the Trump presidency.
I don't know if he does a good enough job
of distancing himself the way that he should. But have
you run into any of that.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
In some groups. But again, so let me explain it.
The acceleration is they don't like the government at all.
They don't like Trump, they don't like anything. They don't
believe that there is a political solution to save the
white race, and they believe that society is going to
collapse on his own or either from man made events,
and they want to speed that up. So they want
to cause that chaos. I mean, one of the guys
(04:52):
in the group that I infiltrated said that he actually
voted for Hillary Clinton when she ran and I was like, why,
here's a neo Nazi, but he's accelerationist, and I'm like, whine.
He said, well, if she gets in, usually there's a
less police force to fund the police type stuff, riot,
weaker border, and they just anything costs chaos, and that's
(05:13):
what they want because they believe. Now there's not a
lot of forethought or afterthought, but they believe that when
that day happens, that they're going to come down and
clean up. And most white supremacy groups that I've infiltrated
or worked on, it always ends with them wanting their
own f no state, whether that be a section of
the mountains or whatever, but it just be off white.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
This is jaw dropping stuff. What's that term you used,
but an accelerationist that I'm assuming you know that term
means someone who wants to ratchet things up, like their
sole goal is getting next level. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
No, you're correct. There's just to speed up the speed
up the collapse of society so they can come in
and clean up and have their own off white.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I can't believe there's a name for that. That's terrifying
in and of itself. And again, Mama, Scott paying right now,
a retired FBI agent twenty eight years in law enforcement.
And also the book is Pale Horse, How I went
undercover to expose America's Nazis. Now I did see, you've
got a wife, you got two daughters. I don't want
(06:18):
to get too personal here as far as ages, but
I got asked the question, was that home waiting for
you while you're sleeping in a shangri la with a
group of neo Nazis were sacrificing goats out in fields?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yes, and then it was the next Sunday. I was
probably on stage playing and singing because I'm a musician,
So yeah, it was all there.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Oh, I didn't know you were a musician too. So
is there a band name or a solo?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
No? No, I've just been playing at my church, you know.
But then if I gig, I usually gig by myself
or you know, a friend or something.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Well, were there phone calls? I mean having little girls
at home? I mean I've got a daughter myself. I can't.
I don't know if I've gone to day not in
at least talking to her? Where there did you have
to go stretches of time? Was there a burner phone,
you know in Donny Brosco. You see him. I hate
to give up, but I mean they're calling you the
hillbilly Donnie Brosco. So what can I do?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
He'd fight to tell joe I had to tell Joey.
He's a mentor and a friend. I'm like, hey, I
didn't pick that.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, well it works. I mean it does convey what
you've done here. And for a guy named Vinnie, uh,
it gives me a lot to work with. I mean,
he would find payphones there, there was a time set
that he'd call and connect. Did you have any of
that or were you just like, We're going to go
along stretch here, girls, I'll see you, you know in
(07:45):
a month. How did that work?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Uh? It ebbed and flowed, especially depending on the case.
But yeah, I mean by the time I was doing
my undercovers, we had cell phones and stuff, you know,
so maybe not at the exact time to call, but yeah,
I tried to call. And of course I wouldn't use
my undercover phone to call my wife's fault, you.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Know, so I didn't know if there were burner phones involved,
I would imagine, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
No, That's what I did early on early on. I
did that just out of my own pocket so I
could call her and not you know, jeopardize any operational security.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, and how did things end as far as this
particular story is concerned. All right, I suppose read the
book right pick up code named palel Horse.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah. Uh, they we we uncovered a bunch of murder
plots and some other things like shooting up some rallies
and uh uh, all the all the FBI case teams
and myself. We we were on the timeline because we
knew one day it was going to be the day,
and we were able to get everything we needed for
the US Attorney's office. And several several members got arrested
(08:49):
and everybody put guilty.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
They did. And we're the names the murder plots, this
list of names. Would they surprise any of my listeners?
Would they surprise me? Or if you told me, then
take a couple of guesses. Would I probably get it right?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
If you looked around the Georgia area, Atlanta area and
you looked at some liberal journalists, you could probably name
some off. Yeah, they were already forming a list. It
was again, it was a little bit shocking to me
when I found out right. I thought we were going
to put up flyers and stickers and stuff, and I
go down to the farm in Georgia and I find
out that we're actually planning on murdering somebody. So yeah, yeah,
(09:28):
a little different.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
How did you finesse? Be totally cool? You know, don't
even our Channi, But I have so many tells, like
I wouldn't want to play poker with you. You've got no tells.
How did you? I mean, I appreciate the fact that, yeah,
twenty eight years in law enforcement, that doesn't and an
FBI special agent. That doesn't mean you know, there's acting
(09:54):
involved here. You were playing a role. You probably had
another name, right, You weren't going by Scott Payne.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
No, I was not. Yeah, I have another name and
all that good stuff. But I'm not going to say
my response is always the best. It's like when I
when he said, hey, we're gonna essentially we're gonna whack
some people, I went, huh, well that's way different than
putting up flyers. That's what That's what I said out loud.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Did you ever feel like anyone might be onto you
might be you know, did you ever have a nervous
walk with somebody where you thought this walk might end
with a confrontation.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Oh many times throughout the years. Absolutely, yeah, But you're
always trying to stay four steps ahead, you know, so
as my I coined, my friend coined the term another
great undercover. But he's like, look, man, it's a game
of chess, you gotta We're trying to think four moves
ahead and be ready for anything to throw them at you.
So yeah, yeah, it's a it's a wild ride.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
It is, it is, and it's a it sounds like
a must read too. Code name Pale Horse, how I
went undercover to expose America's Nazi Scott Pain. He says,
right here, a true American hero sounds about right to me.
I would imagine retired because said you are also a
swat team operator, an instructor for firearms and tactics. You're
still working in that capacity, or if you called it
(11:09):
quits on all fronts, lost work.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yes, sir, I want to keep the rush golf. But
there is an organization called Alert and it is based
out of Texas. It is the national standard for training
law enforcement and active shooter response. And I'm gonna I'm
blessed enough to be an adjunct instructor with them, so
you put in for schools and if you get them,
you go teach.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's him, But sad to say, significantly more uncomfortable than
saying there's a huge difference between mobsters and Nazis, which
I said earlier. Sad to say, that's important work that's
going on there, because school shouldn't be getting shot up
at all. They sure as hell did. Weren't when I
was a kid, but it's sadly commonplace now. That's important work.
(11:54):
Appreciate what you do. Appreciate you being part of today's show.
Can't wait to read the book. Man.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Thank you very much for the time.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Thank you very much for what you do.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
All right,
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