Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer, those
are the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the station.
It's staff management or ownership. Good morning, you'll find me
out with beating the poet Gold.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Peter Leonard and I'm the poet Gold.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
And we're on the air this morning of Valcoholisle from
Reuniting Migrant Families and vow's don't explain all that. But
before she does that, we're going right to a poet
cold weekly poem prayer incantation Gold. Please let it roll.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well to honor poetry Month, because April is also poetry Month.
I'm going to read from a book that I am
in the editor of called Mightier, published by Caps Publishing Company,
and it's by Greg Correll. It's called for Harriet. If
you cry and I close my eyes to you, I
am not free. If you stumble and I don't catch
(00:52):
you help you stand, I am not free. If you
are sick and spill upon the floor and I complain
about the mess, I am not free. If you are
in bondage and I do not fill my fists with
sledges and saws, Unbraith the whip unload the pistol, risk all.
I am not free if you are ground up, used
(01:12):
by evil men, left to bleed alone, and I change
the channel. I am not free if you are almost gone,
reach from the winding sheet, terror like pepper under the skin,
not ready to go, and need my word, my hand,
And I just you know, can't deal with that, hope
you understand, just can't. I am not free. If you
(01:34):
offer a rock and I call it sand. If you
suffer fire and I call it friction. If you ask
for loving kindness and I call it end, call for
the check, call it a day. If you live besides me,
and you do but are not free, I am not free.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Well, I think a lot of us qualify it is
not free. On That's a moving poem, and usually thou
a goal that those one of her own poems, But
she took one from the books she edited, which is
a group of poems about justice and injustice. But we're
doing that in a Urana as a justice seeking person.
(02:13):
But let's go back to the beginning of it. You
are the leader of a group called Reuniting migrant Families.
Could you explain what that's about and how you got
interested in because you've been at it a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Reunite Migrant Families began in twenty eighteen when President Trump
started or when we learned that the administration was separating
children at the border, when we all heard those cries
of the babies in the cages, and I think people
were moved all over the country. Here in Poughkeepsie spontaneously,
(02:50):
there was a demonstration on Market Street. At the same time,
a group in Beacon started Granny's Respond which started a
caravan to drive down to the border to see what
was happening with the children in cages. And we're joined
by people from all over the country. The reunit Migrant
(03:11):
Families here and Poughkeepsie continued to demonstrate every Thursday. We
ended up moving just outside of Merris College on Route nine,
and we've pretty much, weather permitting, demonstrated every Thursday since
twenty eighteen. And we are what we Our issues are
immigration issues, humane fair, humane issues. We do not get
(03:35):
politically involved. We do not name political parties or presidents.
It's always been the issues and they've changed. They've changed
a lot over the years. Of course, children are still
being separated from their families through deportation, but along the
way we had titled forty two and remain in Mexico
in different things. So we've always been issue based, but
(03:56):
the point being that we should have humane fair ways
to become citizens of our country or just to be
here and work.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So the poem was perfect, right, yes, yes, yes, and
you know a relationship to the work that she does.
I knew she was coming on, and I wanted to
select something that was going to be appropriate and fitting
for your mission. I mean, that is such a level
of commitment to be consistently out there once a week
on Thursdays. Correct, And people can join you as well
(04:28):
to come out there.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Oh yes, you're all welcome, and we have lots of
signs so you don't even have to bring a sign.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
What time is it that you guys go on.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Twelve noon every Thursday? Actually now it's twelve noon, first, second,
and fourth Thursday. And what we do is we park
in the home Depot parking lot, we meet there, and
then we buy the McDonald's area of the parking lot
and then we walk down and go on both sides
of the streets, and you know, the commitment. It's been
(04:59):
interesting because no one thought we'd still be out there,
most of us didn't know each other. And now we're
very good friends and work together on a lot of
local immigration issues, and we invite new people. Especially the
last couple of weeks, we've gotten quite a number of
people who are interested in speaking up, speaking up for
(05:19):
fairness and justice, and so I've made new friends.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
What I find interesting about the immigration issue is how
detached some Americans are to the fact that we are
all immigrants, and some people were forced immigrants, you know,
like my lineage, my family history. We didn't you know,
get on a boat and row over here, and you know,
we were snatched, chained and murdered, and you know, all
in the process to build this country, you know, alongside
(05:47):
other groups of people. But the fact that people lose
the understanding that there are not many generations away from
immigrating to the United States, and the word empathy, you know,
being able to just put yourself in someone else's choose
or even your grandmothers. At this point, you know, you're
(06:08):
not like twenty generations away from someone migrating to America
who couldn't speak let's say English. You know, maybe your
Jewish descent is that the right terminology, and your and
your grandparents speak Yiddish, you know, right, right, I mean,
it's just like not not many generations away from that,
And so to to ostracize people who were who would
(06:32):
I get the whole legal aspect of it. You know,
it's a broken system. We have to figure it out.
But sometimes people are escaping brutality. That's that we can't
even imagine.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, I don't understand the lack of empathy either, because well,
I had a grandfather that was an American citizen, but
I also my mother was born in Argentina, so they migrated.
There's migration in the world over. It's not just immigrants
coming here, and there's usually a reason. You know, people
(07:05):
don't leave their homes, their families, everything that they know,
and often their occupations unless they have to, unless they're
really looking for a better life, or that they're in
fear of their life, right And most of us aren't
that many generations away, you know, And they did have
a tough time they came here, and they are grandparents
(07:28):
and great grandparents worked hard at the kind of jobs
that people are trying to do right now.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And I sometimes tell people, think of even within our
own country, how people you know, literally migrate from say
people say gentrification, you know, or people actually migrating within
the construct of the United States. You have people who
live in Tornado Alley, and I always say to myself, well,
why would you live there? Well, you know, they've they've
lived there for generations and with the depending on the
(07:54):
economics of it, they just cannot get up and uproot.
It's it's emotion to uproot your whole life. You're uprooting
your narrative, your story, your history. If you have generations
that have been born into a place, just to move
from one state to a different state for your safety,
it's it's a difficult process, you know. So imagine someone
(08:17):
leaving a whole country.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Ye, why does your how the grandmother Argentina.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I think it was because of Peron. That's why my
parents were both born in Argentina. My father was not.
My grandfather on that side was not from Hungary like
my other's side. But I think usually it's either economic
or it's h rubbery pressive government or like we see now,
(08:46):
the governments in many of our that triangle, you know,
have been terrible. They they've been tortured, there are gangs,
or there's the climate change has caused them to starve.
You know, the climate change that is created mostly in
the United States and world where we have cars and
(09:08):
more more things are affecting the highlands of Guatemala where
they can't grow anything, you know, so they move, you know,
and it is they're moving. They're leaving a culture behind,
a culture that they loved, a language they loved. And
I think if you put yourself in that place of
moving someplace where you don't know the language, you don't
(09:29):
know what you're going to do, and you've left everyone behind,
I just don't understand how people lack that empathy. Maybe
they just don't want to look that don't look away
is the thing. Because there's one gentleman. He was a
from Mauritania. He was an air traffic controller. You know,
(09:49):
he's not an air traffic controller here. He's working very
well to become something more than working at subway. But
it's hard, you know. And we have doctors and nurses,
people they have left their occupations right behind because of
art there fleeing.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
If you're just tuning in, you're listening to finding out
with Pete and the poet Gold and I'm the poet
Gold and we're here today with Valie Carlisle, who is
the leader of reuniting migrant families.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I'm surprised and interested in your own family background. So
you had people who left hungry, so your European descent, right,
So you had a European people who moved to Argentina,
and then from Argentina as your mother moved to the
United States. So you've been being hounded for several generations.
(10:46):
So you might have an extra window onto the lives
and the feelings of migrants.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
You know, I guess I do. But at the same time,
I always felt privileged, you know. I I was born
in the United States. I was the first child born
in the United States for my family, and I had
all the privileges. My parents were not poor, they didn't
know English already, they were bilingual. So in fact, just
(11:16):
the other day I realized, like, wait a minute, I
was an American born child. Are they going to come
after me?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know, right right?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Which just made me feel I'm not really worried, but
it made you realize how close you are, Like yes,
like Poe gold says, we're so close to what's happening today.
Most of us don't have to reach back very far
to see movement in their family. And at the same time,
there are places where people don't want to move within
the country, right because they have had generations here.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And you said just a point that you were making,
how you know felt privileged? Are you married?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Okay, okay, because there is a bill that's trying to
be passed that woul suppress the women vote who are married.
They have to identify their place of origin. So so
when you if you're married and you have your husband's name,
you might possibly lose your right to vote because you
cannot prove when you show up to the booth. And
women don't know this. You cannot prove when you show
(12:16):
up to the booth that you are who you are
when you were born unless you show up with your
birth certificate and everything else that's needed.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
R voter suppression.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Right, it's the voter suppression for specifically aimed at married women.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
And I have to tell you that's what that's what
happened to my sister. She lives in Texas and she's
always renewed her license very easily. She's almost my age,
which is a lot, and all of a sudden she
had to try to go back to Spokane, Washington's records
to get the original birth certificate, you know, which happy
(12:49):
she hasn't needed for so, just so that she can
get the license and so she can vote.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
This is the United States right suppression.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yes, yes, you.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Know your family moved to Spokane, Washington.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
No, we were just born there. My sisters and I
were born there. They moved east to the New Jersey.
I grew up New Jersey. Then I moved to New York.
But meanwhile, my family has migrated all over the country
West Virginia, Texas, and Arizona. Now, you know, people migrate,
They've always migrated. We're still migrating. Yes, And these borders
(13:24):
that we put out there, their man made borders that change,
they've changed over time, and we're denying a natural thing
people do to seek a better life or to seek something.
You know, we tried. Americans travel. They you know, they
travel openly. They cross borders all the time to visit places.
(13:45):
It's curiosity. It's a better life, this emphasis.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
And we've had a history where we build on come here.
You know, we've boasted, We've thrown back our shoulders, pumped
up our chests, you know, and said come here with
a great country in the world, you know, And now
we're saying, okay, well, and I don't get me wrong,
I mean I don't care who you are. I don't
give you a white, black, yellow, brown, whatever. If you're
(14:12):
if you you know, have committed crimes against people, you
know in abundance, then yes, you should be held accountable
for that. But if you are someone who's abiding by
the law, who are paying taxes to this country. By
paying taxes, you're enriching the ecosystem and the financial system
of this country. You have committed you have not committed
any crime, then you've earned your right to be here,
(14:32):
just like anybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, I want to take a little exception for you
even saying that you're against criminals. I mean, anybody who's
murdered as somebody is not on the team, no matter which,
no matter what are they grows right, nobody is for criminals, right, Okay.
And the notion that you know, sometimes a lot of
our immigrants from Latin America are portrayed as absolutely a
(14:59):
couple people. I mean that's just not.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Fair, absolutely absolutely, And it's this it's how we spin it,
you know, like you know, we've I and I get
why sometimes white voices feel like, particularly poor white feel
like they've been invisible, because that's been a system. When
you look at the the visuals of who's poor in America,
they don't show you poor white for years, they've shown
(15:23):
people of color, you know, and and that has manipulated
poor white even they've even brought into that and they're going, well,
wait a minute, but we're poor too. But somehow they
get caught up in the trap as well of the
marketing that America has done. When you diplay, when you
display well, what is poor in America? What does it
(15:43):
look like? They don't show you the little the picture
of the little white boy who can't eat in the
Appalachian Mountains. They're going to show you a brown person.
They're going to show you a black person, but they're
not going to show you a white person.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Well we agree on that, okay, But yeah, I want
to go to the part where you know our personal stories.
So as Americans, we do have immigration as part of it.
And I mean, my family was not one that moved much.
I'm the first person really to migrate and I migrated
Spoughkeepsie from New York. And when I got some specifically
(16:17):
fl very very difficuent me too, What is this. My
family's been here, you know, not from the mayfile, but
from the eighteen forties when the potatoes in and grow
in Ireland. We had to get out. But it doesn't
seem as if anybody going from you know, Ireland to America.
(16:38):
I wanted to leave Ireland, except there was just no food.
The potato stopped in the Potato family, and so we were,
you know, sort of stuck in New York because you know,
working class people all that time. And then I leaked
out well the way to Dutchess County forty years ago,
and then your.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Family probably went through it, you know too, as well
as as Irish were called kinds of names. The Italians
will call kinds of names. We know, Black folks will
call kinds of names. I mean, it's it's at some
point I would hope that that we could transform as
human beings. I second that, you know, you know, when
(17:15):
at some point, when do we do the inner work
to sort of elevate the beautiful gift that that that
we are and that we've been given in life.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah, sometimes people reach back and say, well I had
to I went through that, you know, instead of saying
I went through that, and I don't want the next
group to go through that. I wanted. I want improve.
I want the world to improve. I don't need to
be stuck back where people are having a difficult time.
And that's what I'm looking.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
For, especially those who of faith and who claim to
be you know, quote unquote Christians and uh, you know,
love your neighbor, and you know, with all these exceptions,
I don't I don't.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Like the story, but isad doesn't somebody else do it right?
Because I did? It is almost always a lie, right,
I mean, like you know how that's that's for sure.
And bregging, even if it isn't a lie, bregging is
not something that's really admirable. Being sympathetic to its other people,
(18:19):
trying to encourage them, that's a better way to handle success.
And I want to indicate cold did we go to
a half an hour there?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So yes we do, Yes, we do. So I want
to make sure you're watching the clocks, so.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay, usually we used to go to twenty five minutes,
so we're just having a little adjustment there, But why
don't you go right for it?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Thank you for just tuning in. You're listening to finding
out repeating the poet Gold. I'm Peter and I'm the
poet Gold, and we're here with Viole Carli, who is
the leader of reuniting migrant families. Let me ask a question.
You came in and you oh, my buttons on my
they took my jacket. My buttons on my jacket. You
came in and gave everyone buttons. It has a blue triangle.
Thank I got another one blue triangle on Yes she is,
and it says we are all immigrants. Can you explained
(19:01):
why it's the blue triangle on this button.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
There's a group called Witness at the Border that since
children have been unaccompanied miners have been put in concentration
camps back in twenty eighteen at Tornello has gone to
witness these different places across the country and just to
see what's happening with your own eyes. And so I
have joined them many times, and we've been very disheartened
(19:29):
over what's happening and what we can do about it,
and came up with the idea of the blue triangle,
which was during the Holocaust, the people that were held
in Auschwitz in different camps. If you were an immigrant,
you wore a blue triangle, as the Jews had to
wear the yellow star, or the LGBTQ had to wear
(19:50):
a pink triangle. There I think there was about eight
different colors actually, but blues was for immigrants. So we're
co opting that and using it as a sign of
solidarity and allies of immigrants can wear them to We're
giving them out and promoting across the country. It's gotten
a big start, thousands already out there, and we're hoping
(20:12):
anyone everyone would join us, because you know, often kind
people and empathetic people aren't loud people, and sometimes the
loud is the hateful ones, and we don't you know,
you might be caring, you might give a donation, you
don't usually stand up and yell about it. So this
is just one quiet way of showing that you are
(20:33):
a part of the group that stands up for immigrants,
that recognizes that probably you are an immigrant. And of
course the Native Americans were the original ones here, so
we're not trying to put that down, but in general,
most of us are from immigrants or are immigrants now.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I saw a clip on Instagram and it was a
border patrol person and at one hand I felt concerned
for him because he's on Instagram and someone asked him
a question. He innocently responded, you know, I didn't really
sign on for this, and you know, he's having trouble
in trying to process the separation of children from their parents.
(21:14):
And it was he was placing a child, you know,
in the cage, and it is a cage. It is
a cage, folks, you know. And he was placing the
child in the cage, and you know, the children had
the I guess the silver blankets that they give them
to to keep them warm. And it was really just horrid,
you know, image to see if you could go to
(21:36):
sleep at night and and sort of just look at
your child, your baby, you're because these were babies. These
were seven year olds and eight year olds. I mean
sure there's teenagers there, but when you place your child
to bed tonight, I want you just to stand over
your child and look at your child for a minute
and reimagine that someone has taken your child and just
placed them in a cage.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Well, and I have an unrealistic but nevertheless deep fear
of my son Kevin, who's forty four years old. He's
got developmental disabilities. And he was born in Guadalajara, Mexico,
and he came to America when he was ten weeks old.
And you know, he grew up in America, but he's
(22:19):
clearly got disabilities. It doesn't take you long to figure
that out when you meet them. And I have the
fear that, you know, somehow he should get swept up,
and you know it depending on how enthusiastic the raids get.
You know, some enthusiastic young immigration officers could grab Kevin
(22:41):
and basically asked him what his name is, and Kevin
starts talking to his hands, right, the immigration officers could
think that was being fresh, and all kinds of things
could happen. And I'm you know, a solidly middle class
person who could get a lawyer could get this. But
Kevin will be traumatized forever if he's spent an hour
in said nothing of date.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And I don't think that, you know, you you expressed
it as an enthusiastic I think we're here, you know,
so I don't think that it's unrealistic, you know, I don't.
I don't find it unrealistic that that fear. And you know,
I'm a person about fear. But I think that that's
a realistic fear because it's it's going on in some
parts of America, and you know, someone who works like
(23:21):
myself with with some migrant children in my journey. Uh.
You know, the fact of the matter is that when
they come, they come and they're not really concerned about
really who you are. It's well, let's just sort of
sweep everything up in the room and before we we
you know, for lack of a better metaphor, dump it
(23:41):
in the trash, so to speak, will kind of catch
you know, what's going in, but it's really not important.
It'll be figured out later. You know, it'll be sorted later.
And in that later there can be a Kevin. There
can be like that, gentleman. It's over in El Savador.
You know, these mistakes are already have it happening. So
I don't think your fear is unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Well, I don't know if you made me feel better
or worse. I'm not crazy, but I'm scared. You know.
One of the things I see between you know, goals
poem and goals whole sensibility, and you had demonstrations, you know,
since twenty eighteen, alerting people who travel Route nine, that
(24:22):
there's a problem with immigration and that we should be
opening our hearts rather than closing our borders. And you know,
my sense is you're seeing it as a moral mission,
almost more than a political one. In other words, when
you say you're not a political group, but you're clearly
(24:44):
wondering how come people don't feel bad for people and
want to help out. That's a moral position.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I agree, it is a moral And like I said,
both administrations we had complex about, you know, we left it.
They're both so you know, obviously you might be more
on one side or another, but we don't a lot
of ones.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Is okay both sides. I don't go there at all.
But way do you think that moral sensibility comes for
you personally and the way it may have played out
in your previous life as a teacher in the Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Schools, Well, you know, I think it's to go way back.
That made me think a bad When I was sixteen,
I went with amigos to Last America's to this tiny
town in Honduras, and I went from a you know,
having my own bedroom with you know that looked beautiful,
to this town where they were living in rooms that
(25:47):
were smaller than my bedroom, you know, and one hammock
and the whole group was in there, and it really
opened my eyes. And it was you see it. I
would see it in National Geographic, but to see it
in real life, you know, touched me. I forget what
else you were saying. So I know what I was
(26:12):
going to say, because you were you were part of it.
Back as a teacher in the fifth grade curriculum, social
studies had immigration, and immigration was Ellis Island. That's it,
Ellis Island. Uh. And I looked around at Poughkeepsie and
we had all these wonderful hawking stores and not so
(26:33):
many children in the school yet, you know, not so
many children, but there were e s L classes. And
then came I said, there's immigration happening right here. We
can well, we can talk about that. And that gentleman
was then killed on a hit and run on the
Route nine, and Peter, you and skip Manane and I
(26:58):
can't remember who else all went down to Wahaka to
bring money that had been raised along with the body.
And that really opened up everything. It opened up my
classroom into really knowing and you know, everybody's eyes that
people were here and this man had been traveling probably
to work or back from work on a bicycle, you know.
(27:19):
And the Pkeepsie Journal did that whole big spread about Wahaka.
That's before people knew how to pronounce it. And you
came into the classroom and skip came in, and the
photographer came in and talked to the children about immigration,
and we had we got together with the ESL classes
(27:41):
and through letters and got together for lunch and so
that's it all started.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Version of that long story is a person from Mohacca,
Mexico was killed on a hit and run accident in
skip Man and the detective was trying to get the
body back to Wahaka, and uh, you know, there was
no way to do that and the wife, his wife
really and four kid really warn him back in so
(28:11):
Skip started a fundraiser. Twenty eight thousand dollars was raised
over with every ethnic name. Oh yeah, and so you
know they were able to shipped the body back. And
then Pikeepsie Journal had a special trip for a Meirabeth
five for the Right of the Great photographer with Spencer Rainsley.
(28:32):
I was a columnist then, and we you know, went
down there and presented the check, but it was a
big political thing in The Poughkeepsie Journal did a great
job on it. The New York Times did a good job,
but we desired just five page spreading People magazine. It
was Pepsie had its best, Poughkeepsie getting caught with its
best foot forward. Before we knew how to dislike immigrants,
(28:56):
we were great and lead since your classroom, which was
when we first meet. And so it's for you to
be talking about fifth grade and the fifth grade about
immigration from people from Oahawcome, Mexico is a big deal.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It's always interesting what sparks a person's movement, you know,
and to transition into something in your life and it
comes out to be a sort of a meaningful journey,
you know. For the net. You go, wow, I never
thought I would be here, but I'm here.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I call that, since it's Poetry month, being the poem.
And people ask me, what do you mean by being
the poem? This is exactly it. You You you saw calling,
and spiritually and morally within yourself you responded to it,
and that's what being the poem is about.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
And you can see that working on Thursday. If you
go by you see people with signs you know you're
seeing the poem and Val Carlysle thanks an awful off
for being with us.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
On finding out with Pete and the poet Gold.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah. Man,
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer, those
are the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the station.
It's staff management or ownership. Good morning, you'll find me
out with beating the poet Gold.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Peter Leonard and I'm the poet Gold.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
And we're on the air this morning of Valcoholisle from
Reuniting Migrant Families and vow's don't explain all that. But
before she does that, we're going right to a poet
cold weekly poem prayer incantation Gold. Please let it roll.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well to honor poetry Month, because April is also poetry Month.
I'm going to read from a book that I am
in the editor of called Mightier, published by Caps Publishing Company,
and it's by Greg Correll. It's called for Harriet. If
you cry and I close my eyes to you, I
am not free. If you stumble and I don't catch
(00:52):
you help you stand, I am not free. If you
are sick and spill upon the floor and I complain
about the mess, I am not free. If you are
in bondage and I do not fill my fists with
sledges and saws, Unbraith the whip unload the pistol, risk all.
I am not free if you are ground up, used
(01:12):
by evil men, left to bleed alone, and I change
the channel. I am not free if you are almost gone,
reach from the winding sheet, terror like pepper under the skin,
not ready to go, and need my word, my hand,
And I just you know, can't deal with that, hope
you understand, just can't. I am not free. If you
(01:34):
offer a rock and I call it sand. If you
suffer fire and I call it friction. If you ask
for loving kindness and I call it end, call for
the check, call it a day. If you live besides me,
and you do but are not free, I am not free.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Well, I think a lot of us qualify it is
not free. On That's a moving poem, and usually thou
a goal that those one of her own poems, But
she took one from the books she edited, which is
a group of poems about justice and injustice. But we're
doing that in a Urana as a justice seeking person.
(02:13):
But let's go back to the beginning of it. You
are the leader of a group called Reuniting migrant Families.
Could you explain what that's about and how you got
interested in because you've been at it a long time.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Reunite Migrant Families began in twenty eighteen when President Trump
started or when we learned that the administration was separating
children at the border, when we all heard those cries
of the babies in the cages, and I think people
were moved all over the country. Here in Poughkeepsie spontaneously,
(02:50):
there was a demonstration on Market Street. At the same time,
a group in Beacon started Granny's Respond which started a
caravan to drive down to the border to see what
was happening with the children in cages. And we're joined
by people from all over the country. The reunit Migrant
(03:11):
Families here and Poughkeepsie continued to demonstrate every Thursday. We
ended up moving just outside of Merris College on Route nine,
and we've pretty much, weather permitting, demonstrated every Thursday since
twenty eighteen. And we are what we Our issues are
immigration issues, humane fair, humane issues. We do not get
(03:35):
politically involved. We do not name political parties or presidents.
It's always been the issues and they've changed. They've changed
a lot over the years. Of course, children are still
being separated from their families through deportation, but along the
way we had titled forty two and remain in Mexico
in different things. So we've always been issue based, but
(03:56):
the point being that we should have humane fair ways
to become citizens of our country or just to be
here and work.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So the poem was perfect, right, yes, yes, yes, and
you know a relationship to the work that she does.
I knew she was coming on, and I wanted to
select something that was going to be appropriate and fitting
for your mission. I mean, that is such a level
of commitment to be consistently out there once a week
on Thursdays. Correct, And people can join you as well
(04:28):
to come out there.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Oh yes, you're all welcome, and we have lots of
signs so you don't even have to bring a sign.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
What time is it that you guys go on.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Twelve noon every Thursday? Actually now it's twelve noon, first, second,
and fourth Thursday. And what we do is we park
in the home Depot parking lot, we meet there, and
then we buy the McDonald's area of the parking lot
and then we walk down and go on both sides
of the streets, and you know, the commitment. It's been
(04:59):
interesting because no one thought we'd still be out there,
most of us didn't know each other. And now we're
very good friends and work together on a lot of
local immigration issues, and we invite new people. Especially the
last couple of weeks, we've gotten quite a number of
people who are interested in speaking up, speaking up for
(05:19):
fairness and justice, and so I've made new friends.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
What I find interesting about the immigration issue is how
detached some Americans are to the fact that we are
all immigrants, and some people were forced immigrants, you know,
like my lineage, my family history. We didn't you know,
get on a boat and row over here, and you know,
we were snatched, chained and murdered, and you know, all
in the process to build this country, you know, alongside
(05:47):
other groups of people. But the fact that people lose
the understanding that there are not many generations away from
immigrating to the United States, and the word empathy, you know,
being able to just put yourself in someone else's choose
or even your grandmothers. At this point, you know, you're
(06:08):
not like twenty generations away from someone migrating to America
who couldn't speak let's say English. You know, maybe your
Jewish descent is that the right terminology, and your and
your grandparents speak Yiddish, you know, right, right, I mean,
it's just like not not many generations away from that,
And so to to ostracize people who were who would
(06:32):
I get the whole legal aspect of it. You know,
it's a broken system. We have to figure it out.
But sometimes people are escaping brutality. That's that we can't
even imagine.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Yeah, I don't understand the lack of empathy either, because well,
I had a grandfather that was an American citizen, but
I also my mother was born in Argentina, so they migrated.
There's migration in the world over. It's not just immigrants
coming here, and there's usually a reason. You know, people
(07:05):
don't leave their homes, their families, everything that they know,
and often their occupations unless they have to, unless they're
really looking for a better life, or that they're in
fear of their life, right And most of us aren't
that many generations away, you know, And they did have
a tough time they came here, and they are grandparents
(07:28):
and great grandparents worked hard at the kind of jobs
that people are trying to do right now.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
And I sometimes tell people, think of even within our
own country, how people you know, literally migrate from say
people say gentrification, you know, or people actually migrating within
the construct of the United States. You have people who
live in Tornado Alley, and I always say to myself, well,
why would you live there? Well, you know, they've they've
lived there for generations and with the depending on the
(07:54):
economics of it, they just cannot get up and uproot.
It's it's emotion to uproot your whole life. You're uprooting
your narrative, your story, your history. If you have generations
that have been born into a place, just to move
from one state to a different state for your safety,
it's it's a difficult process, you know. So imagine someone
(08:17):
leaving a whole country.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Ye, why does your how the grandmother Argentina.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I think it was because of Peron. That's why my
parents were both born in Argentina. My father was not.
My grandfather on that side was not from Hungary like
my other's side. But I think usually it's either economic
or it's h rubbery pressive government or like we see now,
(08:46):
the governments in many of our that triangle, you know,
have been terrible. They they've been tortured, there are gangs,
or there's the climate change has caused them to starve.
You know, the climate change that is created mostly in
the United States and world where we have cars and
(09:08):
more more things are affecting the highlands of Guatemala where
they can't grow anything, you know, so they move, you know,
and it is they're moving. They're leaving a culture behind,
a culture that they loved, a language they loved. And
I think if you put yourself in that place of
moving someplace where you don't know the language, you don't
(09:29):
know what you're going to do, and you've left everyone behind,
I just don't understand how people lack that empathy. Maybe
they just don't want to look that don't look away
is the thing. Because there's one gentleman. He was a
from Mauritania. He was an air traffic controller. You know,
(09:49):
he's not an air traffic controller here. He's working very
well to become something more than working at subway. But
it's hard, you know. And we have doctors and nurses,
people they have left their occupations right behind because of
art there fleeing.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
If you're just tuning in, you're listening to finding out
with Pete and the poet Gold and I'm the poet
Gold and we're here today with Valie Carlisle, who is
the leader of reuniting migrant families.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I'm surprised and interested in your own family background. So
you had people who left hungry, so your European descent, right,
So you had a European people who moved to Argentina,
and then from Argentina as your mother moved to the
United States. So you've been being hounded for several generations.
(10:46):
So you might have an extra window onto the lives
and the feelings of migrants.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
You know, I guess I do. But at the same time,
I always felt privileged, you know. I I was born
in the United States. I was the first child born
in the United States for my family, and I had
all the privileges. My parents were not poor, they didn't
know English already, they were bilingual. So in fact, just
(11:16):
the other day I realized, like, wait a minute, I
was an American born child. Are they going to come
after me?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
You know, right right?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Which just made me feel I'm not really worried, but
it made you realize how close you are, Like yes,
like Poe gold says, we're so close to what's happening today.
Most of us don't have to reach back very far
to see movement in their family. And at the same time,
there are places where people don't want to move within
the country, right because they have had generations here.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And you said just a point that you were making,
how you know felt privileged? Are you married?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
No?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Okay, okay, because there is a bill that's trying to
be passed that woul suppress the women vote who are married.
They have to identify their place of origin. So so
when you if you're married and you have your husband's name,
you might possibly lose your right to vote because you
cannot prove when you show up to the booth. And
women don't know this. You cannot prove when you show
(12:16):
up to the booth that you are who you are
when you were born unless you show up with your
birth certificate and everything else that's needed.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
R voter suppression.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Right, it's the voter suppression for specifically aimed at married women.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
And I have to tell you that's what that's what
happened to my sister. She lives in Texas and she's
always renewed her license very easily. She's almost my age,
which is a lot, and all of a sudden she
had to try to go back to Spokane, Washington's records
to get the original birth certificate, you know, which happy
(12:49):
she hasn't needed for so, just so that she can
get the license and so she can vote.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
This is the United States right suppression.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yes, yes, you.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Know your family moved to Spokane, Washington.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
No, we were just born there. My sisters and I
were born there. They moved east to the New Jersey.
I grew up New Jersey. Then I moved to New York.
But meanwhile, my family has migrated all over the country
West Virginia, Texas, and Arizona. Now, you know, people migrate,
They've always migrated. We're still migrating. Yes, And these borders
(13:24):
that we put out there, their man made borders that change,
they've changed over time, and we're denying a natural thing
people do to seek a better life or to seek something.
You know, we tried. Americans travel. They you know, they
travel openly. They cross borders all the time to visit places.
(13:45):
It's curiosity. It's a better life, this emphasis.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
And we've had a history where we build on come here.
You know, we've boasted, We've thrown back our shoulders, pumped
up our chests, you know, and said come here with
a great country in the world, you know, And now
we're saying, okay, well, and I don't get me wrong,
I mean I don't care who you are. I don't
give you a white, black, yellow, brown, whatever. If you're
(14:12):
if you you know, have committed crimes against people, you
know in abundance, then yes, you should be held accountable
for that. But if you are someone who's abiding by
the law, who are paying taxes to this country. By
paying taxes, you're enriching the ecosystem and the financial system
of this country. You have committed you have not committed
any crime, then you've earned your right to be here,
(14:32):
just like anybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, I want to take a little exception for you
even saying that you're against criminals. I mean, anybody who's
murdered as somebody is not on the team, no matter which,
no matter what are they grows right, nobody is for criminals, right, Okay.
And the notion that you know, sometimes a lot of
our immigrants from Latin America are portrayed as absolutely a
(14:59):
couple people. I mean that's just not.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Fair, absolutely absolutely, And it's this it's how we spin it,
you know, like you know, we've I and I get
why sometimes white voices feel like, particularly poor white feel
like they've been invisible, because that's been a system. When
you look at the the visuals of who's poor in America,
they don't show you poor white for years, they've shown
(15:23):
people of color, you know, and and that has manipulated
poor white even they've even brought into that and they're going, well,
wait a minute, but we're poor too. But somehow they
get caught up in the trap as well of the
marketing that America has done. When you diplay, when you
display well, what is poor in America? What does it
(15:43):
look like? They don't show you the little the picture
of the little white boy who can't eat in the
Appalachian Mountains. They're going to show you a brown person.
They're going to show you a black person, but they're
not going to show you a white person.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Well we agree on that, okay, But yeah, I want
to go to the part where you know our personal stories.
So as Americans, we do have immigration as part of it.
And I mean, my family was not one that moved much.
I'm the first person really to migrate and I migrated
Spoughkeepsie from New York. And when I got some specifically
(16:17):
fl very very difficuent me too, What is this. My
family's been here, you know, not from the mayfile, but
from the eighteen forties when the potatoes in and grow
in Ireland. We had to get out. But it doesn't
seem as if anybody going from you know, Ireland to America.
(16:38):
I wanted to leave Ireland, except there was just no food.
The potato stopped in the Potato family, and so we were,
you know, sort of stuck in New York because you know,
working class people all that time. And then I leaked
out well the way to Dutchess County forty years ago,
and then your.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Family probably went through it, you know too, as well
as as Irish were called kinds of names. The Italians
will call kinds of names. We know, Black folks will
call kinds of names. I mean, it's it's at some
point I would hope that that we could transform as
human beings. I second that, you know, you know, when
(17:15):
at some point, when do we do the inner work
to sort of elevate the beautiful gift that that that
we are and that we've been given in life.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Yeah, sometimes people reach back and say, well I had
to I went through that, you know, instead of saying
I went through that, and I don't want the next
group to go through that. I wanted. I want improve.
I want the world to improve. I don't need to
be stuck back where people are having a difficult time.
And that's what I'm looking.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
For, especially those who of faith and who claim to
be you know, quote unquote Christians and uh, you know,
love your neighbor, and you know, with all these exceptions,
I don't I don't.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Like the story, but isad doesn't somebody else do it right?
Because I did? It is almost always a lie, right,
I mean, like you know how that's that's for sure.
And bregging, even if it isn't a lie, bregging is
not something that's really admirable. Being sympathetic to its other people,
(18:19):
trying to encourage them, that's a better way to handle success.
And I want to indicate cold did we go to
a half an hour there?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So yes we do, Yes, we do. So I want
to make sure you're watching the clocks, so.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay, usually we used to go to twenty five minutes,
so we're just having a little adjustment there, But why
don't you go right for it?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Thank you for just tuning in. You're listening to finding
out repeating the poet Gold. I'm Peter and I'm the
poet Gold, and we're here with Viole Carli, who is
the leader of reuniting migrant families. Let me ask a question.
You came in and you oh, my buttons on my
they took my jacket. My buttons on my jacket. You
came in and gave everyone buttons. It has a blue triangle.
Thank I got another one blue triangle on Yes she is,
and it says we are all immigrants. Can you explained
(19:01):
why it's the blue triangle on this button.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
There's a group called Witness at the Border that since
children have been unaccompanied miners have been put in concentration
camps back in twenty eighteen at Tornello has gone to
witness these different places across the country and just to
see what's happening with your own eyes. And so I
have joined them many times, and we've been very disheartened
(19:29):
over what's happening and what we can do about it,
and came up with the idea of the blue triangle,
which was during the Holocaust, the people that were held
in Auschwitz in different camps. If you were an immigrant,
you wore a blue triangle, as the Jews had to
wear the yellow star, or the LGBTQ had to wear
(19:50):
a pink triangle. There I think there was about eight
different colors actually, but blues was for immigrants. So we're
co opting that and using it as a sign of
solidarity and allies of immigrants can wear them to We're
giving them out and promoting across the country. It's gotten
a big start, thousands already out there, and we're hoping
(20:12):
anyone everyone would join us, because you know, often kind
people and empathetic people aren't loud people, and sometimes the
loud is the hateful ones, and we don't you know,
you might be caring, you might give a donation, you
don't usually stand up and yell about it. So this
is just one quiet way of showing that you are
(20:33):
a part of the group that stands up for immigrants,
that recognizes that probably you are an immigrant. And of
course the Native Americans were the original ones here, so
we're not trying to put that down, but in general,
most of us are from immigrants or are immigrants now.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I saw a clip on Instagram and it was a
border patrol person and at one hand I felt concerned
for him because he's on Instagram and someone asked him
a question. He innocently responded, you know, I didn't really
sign on for this, and you know, he's having trouble
in trying to process the separation of children from their parents.
(21:14):
And it was he was placing a child, you know,
in the cage, and it is a cage. It is
a cage, folks, you know. And he was placing the
child in the cage, and you know, the children had
the I guess the silver blankets that they give them
to to keep them warm. And it was really just horrid,
you know, image to see if you could go to
(21:36):
sleep at night and and sort of just look at
your child, your baby, you're because these were babies. These
were seven year olds and eight year olds. I mean
sure there's teenagers there, but when you place your child
to bed tonight, I want you just to stand over
your child and look at your child for a minute
and reimagine that someone has taken your child and just
placed them in a cage.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Well, and I have an unrealistic but nevertheless deep fear
of my son Kevin, who's forty four years old. He's
got developmental disabilities. And he was born in Guadalajara, Mexico,
and he came to America when he was ten weeks old.
And you know, he grew up in America, but he's
(22:19):
clearly got disabilities. It doesn't take you long to figure
that out when you meet them. And I have the
fear that, you know, somehow he should get swept up,
and you know it depending on how enthusiastic the raids get.
You know, some enthusiastic young immigration officers could grab Kevin
(22:41):
and basically asked him what his name is, and Kevin
starts talking to his hands, right, the immigration officers could
think that was being fresh, and all kinds of things
could happen. And I'm you know, a solidly middle class
person who could get a lawyer could get this. But
Kevin will be traumatized forever if he's spent an hour
in said nothing of date.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And I don't think that, you know, you you expressed
it as an enthusiastic I think we're here, you know,
so I don't think that it's unrealistic, you know, I don't.
I don't find it unrealistic that that fear. And you know,
I'm a person about fear. But I think that that's
a realistic fear because it's it's going on in some
parts of America, and you know, someone who works like
(23:21):
myself with with some migrant children in my journey. Uh.
You know, the fact of the matter is that when
they come, they come and they're not really concerned about
really who you are. It's well, let's just sort of
sweep everything up in the room and before we we
you know, for lack of a better metaphor, dump it
(23:41):
in the trash, so to speak, will kind of catch
you know, what's going in, but it's really not important.
It'll be figured out later. You know, it'll be sorted later.
And in that later there can be a Kevin. There
can be like that, gentleman. It's over in El Savador.
You know, these mistakes are already have it happening. So
I don't think your fear is unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Well, I don't know if you made me feel better
or worse. I'm not crazy, but I'm scared. You know.
One of the things I see between you know, goals
poem and goals whole sensibility, and you had demonstrations, you know,
since twenty eighteen, alerting people who travel Route nine, that
(24:22):
there's a problem with immigration and that we should be
opening our hearts rather than closing our borders. And you know,
my sense is you're seeing it as a moral mission,
almost more than a political one. In other words, when
you say you're not a political group, but you're clearly
(24:44):
wondering how come people don't feel bad for people and
want to help out. That's a moral position.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I agree, it is a moral And like I said,
both administrations we had complex about, you know, we left it.
They're both so you know, obviously you might be more
on one side or another, but we don't a lot
of ones.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Is okay both sides. I don't go there at all.
But way do you think that moral sensibility comes for
you personally and the way it may have played out
in your previous life as a teacher in the Poughkeepsie.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Schools, Well, you know, I think it's to go way back.
That made me think a bad When I was sixteen,
I went with amigos to Last America's to this tiny
town in Honduras, and I went from a you know,
having my own bedroom with you know that looked beautiful,
to this town where they were living in rooms that
(25:47):
were smaller than my bedroom, you know, and one hammock
and the whole group was in there, and it really
opened my eyes. And it was you see it. I
would see it in National Geographic, but to see it
in real life, you know, touched me. I forget what
else you were saying. So I know what I was
(26:12):
going to say, because you were you were part of it.
Back as a teacher in the fifth grade curriculum, social
studies had immigration, and immigration was Ellis Island. That's it,
Ellis Island. Uh. And I looked around at Poughkeepsie and
we had all these wonderful hawking stores and not so
(26:33):
many children in the school yet, you know, not so
many children, but there were e s L classes. And
then came I said, there's immigration happening right here. We
can well, we can talk about that. And that gentleman
was then killed on a hit and run on the
Route nine, and Peter, you and skip Manane and I
(26:58):
can't remember who else all went down to Wahaka to
bring money that had been raised along with the body.
And that really opened up everything. It opened up my
classroom into really knowing and you know, everybody's eyes that
people were here and this man had been traveling probably
to work or back from work on a bicycle, you know.
(27:19):
And the Pkeepsie Journal did that whole big spread about Wahaka.
That's before people knew how to pronounce it. And you
came into the classroom and skip came in, and the
photographer came in and talked to the children about immigration,
and we had we got together with the ESL classes
(27:41):
and through letters and got together for lunch and so
that's it all started.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Version of that long story is a person from Mohacca,
Mexico was killed on a hit and run accident in
skip Man and the detective was trying to get the
body back to Wahaka, and uh, you know, there was
no way to do that and the wife, his wife
really and four kid really warn him back in so
(28:11):
Skip started a fundraiser. Twenty eight thousand dollars was raised
over with every ethnic name. Oh yeah, and so you
know they were able to shipped the body back. And
then Pikeepsie Journal had a special trip for a Meirabeth
five for the Right of the Great photographer with Spencer Rainsley.
(28:32):
I was a columnist then, and we you know, went
down there and presented the check, but it was a
big political thing in The Poughkeepsie Journal did a great
job on it. The New York Times did a good job,
but we desired just five page spreading People magazine. It
was Pepsie had its best, Poughkeepsie getting caught with its
best foot forward. Before we knew how to dislike immigrants,
(28:56):
we were great and lead since your classroom, which was
when we first meet. And so it's for you to
be talking about fifth grade and the fifth grade about
immigration from people from Oahawcome, Mexico is a big deal.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
It's always interesting what sparks a person's movement, you know,
and to transition into something in your life and it
comes out to be a sort of a meaningful journey,
you know. For the net. You go, wow, I never
thought I would be here, but I'm here.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
You know.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I call that, since it's Poetry month, being the poem.
And people ask me, what do you mean by being
the poem? This is exactly it. You You you saw calling,
and spiritually and morally within yourself you responded to it,
and that's what being the poem is about.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
And you can see that working on Thursday. If you
go by you see people with signs you know you're
seeing the poem and Val Carlysle thanks an awful off
for being with us.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
On finding out with Pete and the poet Gold.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yeah. Man,
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