The Breakfast Club Sits Down With David Oyelowo To Discuss 'Government Cheese,' British Vs. American Acting & Opportunities, Oprah. Listen For More!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You op, it's the world's most dangerous morning show.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
To Breakfast Club shall mean the God Lauren le Rossa
and Bey and Jess are out, but we got a
special guest, David o' Yellowwoe was here.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Did I say it?
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Did you did? Okay? I had to ask you beforehand.
You know, I appreciate that you did.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah, I see it all the time, but I'm like,
I don't want to hack it when I try to
say it.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Now everyone everyone does. But yeah, you nailed that.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How are you, sir?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm very good, very good. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Absolutely So.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
You got a government cheese happening right now on Apple TV.
So and watching this but also some of the other
things that I've seen you playing. Can you just first
talk about your career and like the roles that you select,
all of the roles that I know you for are
very powerful, very like you. You tell stories that are
like so important to black people coming out the gate
(00:52):
you are. Is that something you were like, Hey, this
has to be it for me, this is what I
want to do or did you just fall into these roles?
Speaker 5 (00:58):
Because how did it happen.
Speaker 6 (01:00):
No, thank you for saying that. It's very intentional. You know,
I was incredibly influenced by film and television growing up,
and I was aware quite early that the images I
was taking in were in some ways informing me of
what blackness means globally speaking. And then I had this
(01:22):
incredible moment where, having been born and grown up in
the UK, we moved back to Nigeria for six years
from the age of six to thirteen, and I was
suddenly in a country, in an environment where I was
not a minority. Everything on offer in that society was
mine for the taking, and I realized that these images
(01:44):
that I was internalizing that often had black people on
the periphery or playing what I deemed to be caricatures
or stereotypes, were insidious, were detrimental to us as a people.
And so, having moved back to the UK becoming an actor,
I felt that if I'm not part of the solution,
(02:05):
I'm part of the problem. And so I've definitely gravitated
towards roles and projects that mean that I am trying
to change what I saw growing up. I'm trying to
widen the aperture and contextualize who and what we are
as black people.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's interesting. I wonder how did you know that?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
You know, they were characatures and stereotypes if you've never
if you hadn't been to America to see for yourself.
Speaker 6 (02:28):
Yet, because I was living in communities where black people
were central to their own lives, and I knew that
what I was saying, because it wasn't just America, it
was in the UK as well. You know, if if
every time you see a black person they are on
the periphery of the narrative, if so often they are
criminalized or marginalized, that was not my experience walking through
(02:52):
the earth, and so I felt that's intentional, that's political,
that's propaganda in a sense, and it's having a a
detrimental effect on me because there is a disconnect between
my lived experience and what I'm internalizing on screen. And
so that's how I knew it was something to become batter.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
You know, it's so interesting, right because I have that
conversation often, because you know, when you watch film in
television in the nineties, if everything had some type of
socially redeeming value, right, you.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
And I always wonder what the hell happened to it.
It felt like it was intentional. Yeah, put them to
stop showing us that and start giving us like the
reality television.
Speaker 6 (03:31):
Yeah, well, I can tell you exactly what happened. So
often why you got you had those films that were
bringing context to who we are as black people is
because it was largely being framed and made.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
By black people.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
What has happened a lot is that our stories, we
craft them, we developed them. But at some point you've
got to take it to people who have green light power,
who are not from our demographic and so therefore you're
having to push who we are through their perception of
who we are, and it almost always gets eroded, watered down,
(04:06):
or marginalized. And that's what's happening. For some reason in
the nineties that there were there were producers, there were creatives,
there were directors who were just doing it all themselves,
and it was getting celebrated and it was less watered down.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And that's why I think we had that golden era.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah, how you go from The Cosby Show being the
number one show on television, Different World being the number
two show on television, and then all of a sudden,
it's just like, Okay, that don't work no more.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Right right.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
I think there's some intention behind it, you know, you
look at what's happening in the education system. There's a
reason why they're trying to reduce what we have access
to by way of knowledge as to who we are.
Because knowledge is power. So you take that power away,
you can continue to subjugate people. So you know, in
relation to what you said, I love what I get
(04:55):
to do. I love being a storyteller, but I do
often feel like it's also a politic act get our
stories told.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Is it ever heavy for you?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Because I remember watching you and the story about doctor
Martin Luther King and yeah, Selma, And like, I know
there's a lot because you also have done theater. Yeah,
you're very serious about what you do, so I know
that there's a lot of study and like deep study
and things of that nature. So you're probably doing that
for every single role. And there's a lot of like
just trauma that you take on differently because you get
so close to your characters. How does that stick with you,
(05:26):
like in that pressure from outside world too, of like
these are characters and people that you know have shaped
our world.
Speaker 6 (05:32):
Yeah, I mean I try to stay away from the
trauma component. What I mostly gravitate towards aspirational representations of us.
So in playing Doctor King, the gift for me was
to see a leader, to see someone who was an icon,
but who was a human being as well. And I
(05:55):
am interested in stories where we get to be triumphant,
where we get to someone you would aspire to be,
no matter what demographic of person you are. More often
than not, when you see black people in a historical context,
we are browbeaten, we're broken down, and often we don't
we're not allowed to ascend. You won't catch me in
(06:16):
that narrative. For me personally, we have got to for
me be on an upward trajectory in whatever we do,
so it's less traumatic, it's more celebratory of who we
are without shying away from the challenges we've faced.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, they never want to show you the slave revolting right.
Speaker 6 (06:36):
Right exactly exactly. And for me, you know, that's why
I resist slave narratives because it's very hard to find
the triumphant in that. The closest I came to that
was playing bass Reefs. In that this show Low Man
bass Reefs, he starts enslaved. But the great thing about
being a producer is that you can ensure or be
(06:59):
a voice in where the narrative goes. I would not
have taken that on if he didn't go from enslavement
to empowerment. Staying in enslavement is not something that I
want to project to our people, because there are people
who enjoy that narrative as a means of.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Keeping us down.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
You said something interesting, you said it being a producer
you get to kind of like, you know, help to
figure out where the character development goes and stuff like that.
What part of your career did that become an option
for you, because not all actors have the ability to
be on a set and say, hey, I think that
we should change this or empower differently because of how
my people will see this.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
When did that happen first in your career?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
It happened by accident. It was on Selma.
Speaker 6 (07:37):
I got the script just as an actor in two
thousand and seven, felt a real calling to play that role.
But I auditioned for it and the first director said,
David o'yelowo is not Doctor King. That was literally the feedback,
And it took another seven years before the film came
to fruition. But what I could never had anticipated was
(07:59):
that I would go from being an actor who was
rejected initially to three directors later because they just kept
on not wanting to make that movie because black doesn't travel,
The audience is not going to gravitate towards it.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Whatever the excuses are. Say that, well they did back then.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, you think this is a
film about doctor king Ala Perry.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Because they said that, They told Tyler Perry black people
would in lead the theater to go to the movies.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
They don't travel beyond the.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Global you meant like global global box office, right.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Globally, but here as well.
Speaker 6 (08:33):
Then the narrative was black people don't want to see
black struggle. White people don't want to see, you know,
feel white guilt and things like that. But you know,
it wasn't until twenty ten. Lee Daniels actually came along
and was the one who actually cast me in it.
Still couldn't get the film made. In the meantime, I
did a small film with Averduvener called Middle of Nowhere,
(08:55):
small two hundred thousand dollars movie, and I felt.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
She is a genius.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
Lee had moved on from the project because they wouldn't
give him enough money to make it, and I went
in and fought very hard for Ava to be the
one to direct it. She rewrote the script. It was
a brilliant rewrite of the script. Still couldn't get it made.
I'd done the Butler with Oprah at that time. I
invited Oprah on to be a producer on the film.
(09:22):
Twelve Years a Slave came out and had done well,
which had broken down this notion of our stories not traveling.
And so the aggregation of all of those things is
what went on to mean Selma got made well. I
didn't realize I was doing by bringing on Ava, bringing
on Oprah, fighting daily to try and get the thing made,
was producing and so I thought, oh, okay, well I
(09:44):
can do that again for the things that I believe
in and I'm passionate about. And so you know, that
was ten eleven years ago now and I haven't stopped since.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Why didn't it.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
I was just gonna say, that's so crazy, because twel
Years a Slave came out in twenty thirteen, that was
even still a conversation then.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
It was the conversation back then. I mean, I had
done the last King of Scotland before that, and people
may not remember. But even though we think of Forest
Whitaker in that film, the lead of that film was
actually James McAvoy. They would not have made that film
(10:20):
unless there was the Scottish white doctor as the lead
of the role. It was the sheer force of Forest
Whitaker's performance that meant he went on to win Best Actor.
I was in The Help. It was the character played
by Emma Stone who was the lead character of The Help,
not Viola Davis, not Octavius Spencer. It was the sheer
force of their performances that means that they are the
(10:43):
ones we think about. So when I first read Selma
in two thousand and seven, Lyndon Johnson was the lead character.
Doctor King was a supporting character. This is how these
films were getting made back there.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Then.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
They were always fronted by by white characters and you
were sort of on the on the periphery. But it's
this year force of who we are as performers that
meant that you go, oh, that's you know the same.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Thing with Glory.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
You know, Matthew Broderick is the lead of that movie,
but we think of Denzel and Morgan Freeman, you know,
in that movie. So that's how these films always got
made until you know, twenty thirteen there was twelve Years
a Slave without Twelve Years a Slave. I don't think
Selma gets green lit in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Is there racism or business?
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Is racism real? No? I mean it's that it's not business.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
When the Butler, we couldn't get the film made because
no one would put money in. We had to go
to can to raise the funds. We sold seventeen maybe
eighteen foreign territories got the eighteen million dollars to make
the movie. The only reason the film got completed, because
that wasn't enough money to make it, is because a
hurricane hit the set. So we use the insurance money
(11:56):
to complete the movie.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So we made it.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
I think at the end of the day was a
twenty five million dollars we made that movie for it
made one hundred and seventy two million dollars. So it's
not business because you know, anytime we end up making
these shows or these films and they succeed, they then
get deemed that they have overperformed, which in my even
(12:18):
with the white lead, yes, but because because well in
The Butler, for as witzakers the lead and its centers
around a black family. So that's why there was resistance
to making it. But there's no way you're struggling to
raise twenty five million dollars to make a movie if
you knew it was going to make one hundred and
seventy two million dollars. The assumption is that it won't
(12:41):
make that money. So that's why I say it's not
a business decision, it's a yea.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I just wonder what those assumptions are based off. Are
they based off box office success? I mean, you know
now in twenty twenty five, it would be much harder
to have those conversations because of the success of a
lot of black laid movies.
Speaker 6 (13:00):
Then, you know, because we've eroded the lie we have
too many we have draw data. And that's the thing
that streaming has done as well, you know, streaming. For
I saw a clear uptick in my career when streaming
came along. Because the reason why it's racism is it's
tied to the opinion of a very small sample size
(13:21):
of people who are not our demographic, who make these
decisions purely based on opinion, not on raw data. Now, Netflix, Amazon, Apple.
You know there is data we see the you know
law men bass Reeves. I tried to get that show
made for ten years. It got rejected by Hollywood three times.
Went on to be the most successful widely viewed show
(13:44):
on Apple TV plus globally in twenty twenty three. There's
no way would that was the estimation of what it
would be, you know, in relation to how many times
it was rejected.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So we have consistently.
Speaker 6 (13:59):
Eroded them, but we still are being saddled with this
what I deem to be a pejorative, which is it overperformed. No,
didn't overperform, just performed. The audience gravitated towards it because
we're human beings telling great stories in a great way
and the global audience are rewarding us for it.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I do get mad at uh.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I do get mad at us sometimes when we don't
show up for certain projects, right, because you have to, like,
at the end of the day, it's still I understand
everything you're saying, and you're right, but it is still
a business, yeah, at the end of the day, and
we make it easy for them to say no when
we don't show up.
Speaker 6 (14:35):
Well, I guess it depends on when you deem us
not showing up. I've definitely had projects where I was like, oh,
come on, guys, show up. But you know, I think
we're fourteen percent of the population here, but black and
brown people.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
You know, we're trillion dollars in spending exactly here.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
Yeah, but we over index. It's like forty percent of
viewership on a on streaming. It's us, you know. So
we show up for the art form. We are the culture.
We are the drivers of the culture. And so to
constantly have the folks who are driving that culture on
(15:14):
the margins of it doesn't really make sense.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I wonder if it's the type of art too, though.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
That is either because they're quick to make a comedy, right,
they'll make a right, you know what I mean, But
when it's actually something of some substance, Yeah, it's a
little harder to make.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Well, that's why, And to your point, that's why I
try to push the envelope with what I do. I'm
always trying to find something that is a fresh way
into telling a story. So, you know, Government Cheese is
a comedy, but it's a surrealist, parabolic, fantastical comedy that
has this sort of spiritual journey element, something you'd probably
(15:48):
expect more from Wes Anderson than from us. So it's
it's comedy, but I like to think it has more substance,
you know, artistically, that there's there's there's layers to it,
and so it's a little bit chicken and egg as well,
because if we get opportunities to do one thing and
(16:10):
that one thing is doing well, well, you're going to
keep feeding that machine. If it's harder for us to
color outside the lines, and then there's so much pressure
on whether that thing succeeds or not. That's really difficult
because you know, if I'm a white person and I'm
taking a big swing, the chances are I'm going to
have about four, five, six, maybe seven at bats, you know,
(16:32):
with us one maybe two, and so that puts a
lot of pressure. So the temptation is to keep on
doing the safe thing. But that's the thing I've I've
told myself, I can't afford to be safe.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I want to ask real quick, why didn't they want you?
Why didn't the director want you to play Mlkay?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well?
Speaker 6 (16:45):
His reason, well, he was he was entitled to his opinion.
I mean he was a white male director. Who I
think was more focused on the LBJ character and he
had another actor in mind, Like I say, his his
his his choice. But to be honest, when I think
(17:06):
about it now, that's not the version of the story
I would have ever truly been proud of. Or you know,
that's in line with those other movies I talked about.
You see it with The Constant Gardener or Blood Diamond
as well. You know, these these films that insist on
a white protagonist when we are central to the story,
and that's what that version of someone was going to be.
(17:27):
So I'm actually really glad that that version isn't isn't
the one that got made.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
What's success for you now?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Because when I think about the Semmer movie, I remember
the Ascar situation where you guys were up for these
wars like the movie itself within you and able to
do rene and you spoke out and said that you
feel like you guys were snub because you protested wearing
that I can't breath t shirts.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
So it can't be a war shows for you at
this point, right.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
No, no, no, no, no, I mean.
Speaker 6 (17:53):
The the the opportunity that adversity has afforded is to
know that Ultimately, I don't know that those accolades are
necessarily designed with us in mind. Don't get me wrong,
happy to get them if and when they come along.
But the reward which I couldn't have for seeing with
(18:15):
Selma was Oscar so white. You know, the fact that
Selma started that movement and meant that our industry was
held to account from without the industry. The culture literally
said we do not agree with how you treated that
film or how you're treating us generally, and that pressure
(18:35):
really did change the face of Hollywood for a time anyway.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
You know, it definitely moved the needle.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Because that year all twenty act nominees were white.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Right.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
But so for you when you come in after that
year and you're you know what I mean, you do
your whole back. You're very vocal about how you feel
what you're experiencing on the business side of it as
a producer, someone that is directing and doing all these
things that you're doing. Are studios welcoming you with opening
arms like in an ideal world or do you feel
the resistance more after a moment like that.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
It's complicated because you know, in that situation, it was
that first year and then the next year it was.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
The same thing.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Right.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
So you know what was helpful about that is that
you again, like I said earlier, data, it's I'm not
just playing the race card. I'm not just complaining you
have two years in a row where every nominee is
a white person and not a person of color. That
suggests there is something wrong with our industry when you
(19:30):
consider how much our communities support this industry, how prolific
we are within this industry, the work that we're producing,
which the audience is saying they value and are remunerating
at the box office, and so that becomes something you
can hold the industry accountable to. And that's something, like
you say, I've been vocal about. I've been very energized about,
(19:52):
and that has been a big driver for my work.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I love something you say.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
You said, an opportunity that adversity has afforded.
Speaker 6 (19:58):
Yeah, you expound on it for well, you know, when
you're in the middle of it, it's no fun, you know,
when your film is being attacked, when it's being accused
of inaccuracy, when people are saying, actually, the Selmer March
was Lyndon Johnson's idea, not doctor King's idea, all of
which is completely true. Sorry, all of which is completely false.
(20:18):
But you can feel the reason you're being attacked is
because you're actually doing something worthwhile. Doesn't feel great, breaking
new ground doesn't feel great, but the ultimate reward is
there is nowhere in the world I go now where
you know black people in particular are not just hugely
(20:39):
supportive of me. Because that adversity that we face publicly,
people are facing in their lives privately and say they go,
I see you, I see what you're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I'm with you.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
I'm going to support you. And so that level of
support is something no one can take from me. And
since that adversity, I can feel it, and it's a
continuing ground swell because my contracts not just with black
people as an audience, but with the audience generally, is
I'm going to just consistently try to contextualize who we
are as black people. If you're down for that, come
(21:13):
on the ride with me. And that may have not
been something I was so focused on if I had
had all the accolades that you know could have been afforded.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
I want to talk about government cheese. So the name
itself of the series. Let's talk about that first, because
it's referring to the government Cheese program, which is a
kind of like an overarching conversation that you guys have
throughout the series without.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Really having it all the way.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Yeah, so talk about the you know, just the choice
to title it that, and you know what, you hope
the hope is that people get just from looking at
the title before they even see it.
Speaker 6 (21:44):
Yeah, I mean, government cheese for us was symbolic of
what we tend to do as black people. You know,
necessity being the mother of invention. We will take nothing
and make it into something. And government cheese, as people
may know, as government subsidized food. There was powdered eggs,
there was powdered milk as well, and with government cheese
(22:05):
in particular. You talk to people even now they have this,
you know, they go into this place in their heads
when they think about those grilled cheese sandwiches or the
mac and cheese, and they talk about it incredibly fondly
because it was, you know, a not particularly nutritious food
that people made into a delicacy. And what you have
with the Chambers family is that they are this black
(22:27):
family in the valley in the sixties, making something out
of nothing. This guy starts the show incarcerated, has this
epiphany about making a self sharpening drill. It's going to
be the means by which his family comes out of
the challenging situations they're in. So it's aspirational. You have
the character that Simone Misic plays. She's a receptionist, but
(22:49):
she wants to be an interior designer. You have our
son who's aspiring to be a pole vaulter. You have
this other son of ours who you know is completely
obsessed with Native American culture. Every One is looking beyond
where they are from an aspirational point of view, and
in many ways, government cheese is sort of symbolic of that.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
What's the equivalent of government cheese in the UK? I
don't as a british Man, did you understand what that was?
Speaker 6 (23:12):
Yes, I mean we don't have exactly the same thing,
but I remember, you know, you got bottles of milk
that everyone got, you know, that would get dropped at
your house every morning, and that was something that was
across the nation. Super rich people were not getting that necessarily,
but it was you know, lower income families. So that's
the closest that we got in terms of that situation.
(23:35):
But the thing I know from living in the UK,
living in Nigeria and Africa, living here is that wherever
you go, the resilience of black people in terms of
you know, making something out of nothing is just something
that feels pretty universe.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
You've had other roles that have highlighted black life in
the sixties. What about Government Cheese felt different from those
other projects.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
This is the amount of joy on display and just
the relatability.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I think.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
You know, our experience is very specific, especially in the
sixties as it pertains to civil rights and black struggle.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
But you know, with this family, they are dealing not.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Only with economic challenges but marital challenges, and they're raising
kids and you know, just just trying to make ends meet,
and I think all of those things are what make
it fresh and familiar. At the same time, you know,
you've seen black people in the sixties, but never quite
like this, never quite in this place, and never this family.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
You know, they're kind of out there.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
But you know, I have a four kids myself, and
you know it's weird. It's not until you go to
a restaurant and you see people looking at you. Finally
you realize how weird and quirky your own family is
because you're just being super loud and people are king
into your conversation. So I think we're probably a little
bit more quick and with than we can to admit.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Well, this this series is definitely a lot more like
light and fun and you know, even though it takes
on like some serious undertones. But I was reading this
article that you did with a mentalth magazine and you
were talking about going out into Wyoming on a ranch
with your kids. Oh yeah, And I when I saw
the article, I was like, this is like a random
interview for him to have right now. And then I
was reading and I was like, I get it because
(25:25):
you put yourself in the light of like a person
who has had to learn again to just like relax
and just be fun and just be a person.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Because you know, you're studying your acting, you're working.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Then there's clauses where you can't go out and do
stuff like that, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
but those moments with your kids where you're just they're
seeing you as like a human or as like Dad
is fun, dad can do these things. How does that
reignite you when you get back on these sets, you know,
and you take on these characters like the one in
a government cheese.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
I'm so glad you brought that up, because you know,
everything I'm saying is hard work. And you know, when
I make a show, probably in the past, to an
unhealthy degree, I feel like it's a political act. I
feel like it's not just about me going to work
and taking on a story. I'm bringing my paper with me,
(26:15):
and you could argue that there are elements of that
that are unhealthy. And so to smell the roses while
you're on the journey, to continue to intentionally enjoy your family,
enjoy your marriage, enjoy your home has been something that
I've tried to afford myself more and more as I've
got deeper into my career, especially as there are now
(26:38):
more wins on the board. You know, there are really
significant things I've done that are absolutely in line with
what I set out to do, and the temptation is
to just be like, Okay, what's next, what's next, What's next?
And you know, I have four kids, three boys and
a girl. I have a wife who I deeply love,
and you know that is just as important and a
(27:00):
life well lived is not really about what you did.
It's how you made people feel. And the thing, well,
there you go, and you're right, and and I want
the people closest to me to feel like I was present,
to feel like I didn't just say I loved them,
but my actions demonstrated that as well. And I think
(27:22):
that's time. That's just constantly demonstrating to the people you
love that you value being in their presence. And so
that is That's what I'm working on it. I'm not
going to tell you that you know, I'm all the
way there, but that's definitely an intention. I'm trying to
bring more into my life.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Is that what you meant when you said in the
article that you came back a different dad.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
From which in that yeah, I came back a different Wow.
You guys really do your research. You really read that article.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Whoever whoever was that pitched that that was so smart
because in looking you up everything else. Okay, okay, I've knowed, Well,
you don't just end up in mental magazine.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Oh I thought.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
I would have ran it up too, but no, when
I saw that, I was like, it was so genius
because I think your reputation as an actor is so
like it. It's very like stern and you know, silent
and serious. And then I said this article about you
doing all this stuff with my ooman with your kids,
I'm like, wait, hold on, what maybe having fun?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
So it made that's what I guess.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yeah, when you said you came back a different dad,
I guess you just realized, like, I can't just be
so much into my work.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I still got to be pops.
Speaker 6 (28:35):
But but also, you know, I was a really rambunctious kid.
I would throw myself all over the place. I was
one of three boys. And then I had my own
kids and I got super like wrapping them in cotton wool,
like careful, careful, don't do that, you know. And then
we went on this trip where we're horse riding and
(28:55):
the ATVing and we're you're shooting arrows and bike riding,
and I just really just let myself go, probably a
bit too much because I went flying over the handlebars
of the ATV at one point. But you know, I
do that when I'm playing a role, because it's like
throw yourself into the role, do whatever the role requires.
(29:16):
But for my kids to see me having fun in
that way was an eye opener for them, and I
came back differently because I was like, you know what,
I am almost playing a role for my kids in
order for them to be safe, but they also need
to see dad sort of letting loose and having fun,
because then they'll hopefully take the right kind of risks,
(29:38):
not just you know, careless risks. And it was a
shift in the dynamic, and it was something I actually
didn't want to go on. Particularly my wife won it
in a raffle, this trip to this dude runch and
then sent us all out. And you know, I'm so
grateful that we did it, and we've done so many
more things like that since.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Then because it was a hugely beneficial for our family.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Want a trip at a raffle? Yeah, I get you
more money for a movie?
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah, hell yeah yeah. I know. I know that
made it sound bad.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Did you have any reservations about playing MLK because you
are a British actor and you know there's always that
thing or why are all the British actors playing the
roles of American icons?
Speaker 6 (30:19):
No, because of the way it came in. You know,
when I read the script in two thousand and seven,
I had never been thinking of myself as doctor King,
you know, but I'm a Christian. I was in a
time of praying and fasting and I felt God, tell
me you were going to play this role. And then
the way it came about eventually, which is that, you know,
(30:41):
I can safely say pretty much no one worked as
hard to get that.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Film made as I did.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
And I would probably say no one else was quite
as influential in getting that film made, between bringing on Ava,
between bringing on Oprah, between all the work done behind
the scenes to try and get the film. So for me,
I just found it unacceptable that the only American who
had a holiday named after him in the twentieth century,
who happens to be a black man, had not had
(31:11):
a film made about him. Yet I wasn't feeling like
I have to be the one to make it. But
this was already fifty years after his assassination. Why do
we not have the movie? And I'm a big believer
in if not me, then who, And so I was
never really thinking I'm British, it should be someone else.
And the reality is that when Lee Daniels was casting
(31:34):
for it, he met everyone I met. I saw the
list of some of the people he met, I was like,
oh my lord, I cannot believe I'm going up against
my heroes to even dare think I'm going to be
the one to play this. But I eventually got the role,
and so for me it's a question of Okay, now
I've been given the opportunity, It's less about whether or
(31:55):
not I should play it. It's more about how well
I do it, and that is going to be, at
the end of the day, the thing that I want
people to judge. And so I never really thought about
it in that way, because at the end of the day,
I have no interest in playing.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Myself on Spain.
Speaker 6 (32:09):
I'm always going to be gravitating towards the most extreme
challenge in terms of playing someone who's not necessarily me.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Oh, you answer that question when people say why do
British actors often portray Americans in movies and on TV,
but American actors rarely play British.
Speaker 6 (32:23):
Character I would say that the question comes from a
place of scarcity as opposed to the artistry of what
we do. Daniel day Lewis is never having to feel
that question when he plays Lincoln. You know, white British
actors who play a myriad of American roles Christian Bale,
Kate Winslet you know, they just not ask that question.
(32:46):
We don't ask that question when Meryl Streep goes and
plays Margaret Thatcher.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Really we'd actually don't really ask that question.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
When Forrest Whitaker goes and plays idiomein an African character,
or Morgan Freeman goes and plays Nelson Mandela, or the
Great and late Chadwick Boseman plays an African character in
Black Panther. I think it's to do with scarcity here
as it pertains to the work we have. And so
if there's scarcity, there are less opportunities, who gets the
(33:16):
opportunity is more scrutinized, and I think it's a function
of that, and so I'm less concerned with that debate.
I'm more engaged with let's create more opportunity and let's
actually realize there's more pie than we care to realize
or admit. And if you don't know that, create that,
(33:38):
you know, because Morgan Freeman tried to get Bassries made
for thirty years. I just don't understand how Morgan Freeman
couldn't get that made. You know, I came along one
hundred and fifty years after Bassrides was walking the earth,
and you know, I feel very blessed that I managed
to get it made. My question becomes, would you rather
didn't get made or that just wait another one hundred
(34:01):
and fifty years. You know, I can't speak to why
I've been the one afoord of the opportunity, but I
will tell you that it's pretty tough to outwork me
when it comes to getting these stories right.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
And I welcome, you know.
Speaker 6 (34:17):
A situation whereby Biola Davis gets to play an African
warrior in Woman King. You know, that's that's what we
should be doing because we are all from that place.
And so you know, like I say, all those African
Americans playing African characters is beautiful. I don't see why
it is so contested when the flow is the other way.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yeah, I forgot who we were talking to.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
It was an American actor, I can't remember, and they
were just simply they simply said, because British actors are
better and they take the craft more serious.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
And yeah, I challenge that.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
I challenged that because I think it's also to do
with opportunity. Look, the tradition in the UK is you
go to Drama school for three years. It's an expensive education.
My son is at Lambda, the same school I went
to right now, it's expensive. I managed to get a
scholarship to go there. Here there are great actors who
(35:14):
have trained. There's Andre Holland, There's Coleman Domingo, There's Grantham Coleman,
there are there are these extraordinary actors who have trained
and are getting those opportunities. Chad Chad, Chad Boseman was
trained as well, and so I wouldn't say that it's
a question of better. There's just a tradition in the
(35:34):
UK where it's almost an apprenticeship. You do those three years,
then I went I was at the Royal Shakespeare Company
for another three years, so that's six year training, you know.
So when I then eventually turn up to Hollywood ten
years after I've graduated, I'm coming in with a wealth
of opportunity and training that I had.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
In the UK.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
And that's a tougher thing to get here economically speaking,
the great schools that provide that kind of education. But
I'm working with African American actors who are just extraordinary.
I mean, you know, it was one of the things
I was very focused on when we did Bass Reefs.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
You have Lauren E.
Speaker 6 (36:09):
Banks who went to Howard and Yale. You have Jorquina
Kalakango who was at Juilliard. You have Granthan Coleman who trained,
You have these extraordinary actors. It's just that they're not
getting the opportunities to advance at the rate that their
white counterparts will, and so we don't get It's why
we don't get to know who Denzel is or Morgan
(36:30):
Freeman is or Don Chiedo is they're in their thirties
their forties, because it's all tied to opportunity.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
I saw a quote when you were talking about just
African stories that are being told right now. Yeah, because
you mentioned us being able to play roles for those
type of movies and you said that you don't feel
like there's enough stories out of Africa that don't involve
a white savior.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
Yeah, Like, can you.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Expand more on that and like the feeling around that,
And I know you have your production company and your
wife and some of the things that you're doing to
kind of count that.
Speaker 6 (36:59):
Yeah, I mean tradition speaking like I said before, for
a narrative to come out of Africa and be deemed global.
There tends to be a mindset that it needs to
be fronted by a white person to make it palatable,
to make it so that the West is going to
in some ways embrace it.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
The weird thing about that is that the.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
Global majority is black and brown people, not white people,
and that's over a billion Africans who now you know,
the piracy issue is becoming solved by streaming, and you know,
the diaspora is huge.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
So some of this.
Speaker 6 (37:41):
Thinking, in my opinion, is antiquated and comes from a
time where it was still twelve people in Hollywood dictating
what should be made and how it's going to be
seen and whether or not it's going to be successful.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
When you have.
Speaker 6 (37:53):
Squid Gain being one of the biggest shows on Netflix
and it's not even English speaking, that shows that globally speaking,
we've been being told lies about what an audience is
going to gravitate towards on the basis of who's fronting
it or not. And some of that mindset still exists
because a lot of the gatekeepers still retain that mindset
(38:15):
because they are still the gatekeepers in power, being able
to say what gets made or not. So my point
is that We need more African stories. We just need
more stories. And I think a huge untapped source of
amazing global storytelling is Africa, absolutely and so, and for
(38:35):
those stories to be authentic, they need to be made
by people who are integrated in that culture, because I
truly believe the universal is found in the specific. The
more authentic those stories are, I actually think the more
potent they become.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Do you ever, could you have your production companies Euroba Saxon,
Eorba Saxon, So I know that you and your wife
co run that production company, and I'm sure a lot
of the stories that you guys tell are very close
to the heart as far as like black stories just
by your passion here do you get backlasher all because
you're not married to a black woman doing that?
Speaker 5 (39:08):
And how do you deal with that?
Speaker 6 (39:09):
If sol not to my face, I'm sure there are
plenty of people who feel some kind of way about that.
But we called it Yuba Saxon because you know, I'm
from the Yuoba tribe in Nigeria. She's Anglo Saxon, and
so you know, our company is a demonstration of the
(39:31):
fact that we are more alike than we are different
as human beings. Generally speaking, you know, in making government cheese. Yes,
it's a black family. But my hope and my bet
is that everyone is going to see their family in
that family because of the relatable themes and components that
we've woven into it. And so, you know, I'm incredibly
(39:54):
proud of my family. I fell in love with my
wife when Gusha. We met when we were teenagers. We
got married with she was twenty, I was twenty two.
And everything we have we built together. So you know,
for me, sometimes the accusation, you know, in marrying a
white woman is you know, they say things like there's
self loathing in there, or what's the other one, or
(40:17):
that she's a trophy or something like that we she
we were so poor when we started out, they couldn't
be less trophy or if it tried. But you know,
I am an incredibly proud black man, African Christian husband, father.
(40:37):
There are so many things that I am on top
of my demographic and who I'm married to, and those
are all reflected in the work that I and we do.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
And it's been twenty five years which are together.
Speaker 6 (40:49):
Twenty six years married, thirty years next month that we've
known each other.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
What have y'all learned, just as like co producers and
working partners on projects like race or just like.
Speaker 6 (41:00):
Oh god, I mean work life balance. That's a real
thing to try and find. We have a two week
rule whenever apart for more than two weeks. We managed
that for twenty six years. Yeah, because you know, to
be in a relationship, you have to be in proximity
to be able to relate. Ours is a very tough
business on marriages, and so you know, we we we
made that choice because we didn't want to be another
(41:22):
statistic in our in our business. We learned that, you know,
the marriage is the center. The kids are a welcome addition.
Do not let the kids be the glue between you,
you know, always keep stay invested in in that relationship.
And those things have all stood us in good stead
as business partners, you know, respect, never taking each other
(41:45):
for granted, you know the thing, those are the things
that have kept us strong.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
You and your wife should be thinking about producing a
biopic on a great man named doctor Umar Johnson.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
He's an activist here in America. Scholar.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, think about that.
Speaker 7 (41:59):
Just look look at look into it. Listen here, listen
I'm going to keep looking at you. He's about to
get in trouble. Was that about to become a mean?
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Just then?
Speaker 5 (42:12):
That was about me?
Speaker 1 (42:14):
A mean?
Speaker 5 (42:14):
There's a whole change.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Trust me, they'll love you for that role.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
That you will pitch that you morally said to yourself,
I can't do this.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Well.
Speaker 6 (42:24):
What tends to happen is the minute you play a
civil rights leader, you get every civil rights leader who's
ever lived, which so I definitely definitely said though to those.
The minute you play a groundbreaking character, there's a whole
genre called the first black man who. You know, I
get a lot of first black man who, which I'm
not interested in.
Speaker 5 (42:45):
What's the craziest thing? You was like, you don't even
know a black man? Didn't it?
Speaker 6 (42:50):
I mean, I want to say that there have been one.
There have been like windscreen wipers, the guy who invented
the paper clip, the guy like like it's it's it's ridiculous.
It gets as ridiculous as that, and people will come
to you like full of passion. The other one you
want to really avoid is when someone goes, man, I
(43:10):
got this script, it's a boy, my dad and h
he the first person who had a car wash in
Alabama and all that kind of stuff, and it's just like,
I don't know how.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
To tell you that that is not a movie.
Speaker 6 (43:26):
I'm just I'm just so sorry, but that's not going
to be my next but I got your.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Next project, go in and out.
Speaker 5 (43:32):
It is crazy.
Speaker 6 (43:35):
Because it happens a lot of a lot to me.
So so yeah, those are the ones to avoid as well.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Oh you mentioned so casually multiple times, Oprah, but.
Speaker 5 (43:46):
Just just very casually.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
I read another story about when you invite her to
Odello opening night and she had to sit on the
hard benches and she never let you let that down.
Speaker 6 (43:55):
She just never stopped talking about child those benches. But
she came to Coriolanus, which I just did in London,
and they had cushionsy, yes, so you know we are
beyond the bad benches now. But yeah, and they were
very tough benches towards three hours of Shakespeare.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
So she fair point. But I'm glad that we've broken
the deadlock.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
She show up a lot for you, though.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
It sounds like just in what I'm hearing you say,
like what's that relationship? And like, because you know, Oprain,
come at the house for everybody.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
She she is not, She's not. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 6 (44:30):
We met doing The Butler together, and I remember being
stood at a party at Lee Daniel's house that he
was renting in New Orleans when we were shooting that film,
and it was at a time when I just felt
I felt very isolated.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I felt very alone.
Speaker 6 (44:44):
I'd moved here with my family, If I'm totally honest,
I felt like there were other actors who saw me
as a threat in a way that confused me, because
I was like, I'm just you know, I'd come out
of theater in the UK. It's an environment where it's
all about, you know, about the work and working together,
and there are people who are like, you know, that
(45:06):
coming here to take our jobs thing was a real
thing I was feeling. And I just remember still being
stood in a corner at this party, and Oprah came
up to me and said, you okay, I said, you
know what, you know, I'm really glad to have gotten
this movie.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
But it's just I don't know if you've ever felt this, just.
Speaker 6 (45:23):
Like like your own community is is resisting you, which
is what I'm feeling.
Speaker 7 (45:33):
She's the first, whatever you said earlier, the first ever
I know, and so exactly your reaction.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
There was her reaction. She was like baby, and she
talked about how Sidney Poitier was the one who took
her under his wing and said, no, you're not crazy.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
This is a real thing.
Speaker 6 (45:53):
It's something that is unfortunately part of ascending in our community.
And he mentored her and she literally said to me,
I am going to do for you what he did
for me. And she has never abated on that. You know,
summer doesn't happen without her, My directorial debut doesn't acting
happen without her. So much of the advice, so much
(46:15):
that of the financial literacy I have came from her
because I didn't come from means. My parents were not
particularly good business people, even though they had a business.
And so yeah, she has really really made good on
that promise and it's been absolutely life changing.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
People definitely hate you now, just pop outside.
Speaker 6 (46:38):
I know, I know, I know, I made a rod
for my back. I should have shut up. Would you
can pass? Would you consider that a moment of divine intervention? Absolutely?
So many moments in my life have been divine intervention.
And when I when I look at how indisputably my
life changed for having met her. But you look at
(47:01):
the journey towards even playing Doctor King in Selma. You know,
like I said when I first read that script in seven,
the reason I ever even met Ava Duverna.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Is because I sat down next to.
Speaker 6 (47:13):
A guy on a plane who was watching a TV
show I had done in the UK on his iPad.
He looks to me and says, is this you I'm
watching on my iPad? I said yes. He pauses it says, oh, okay,
you're an actor. Give me some advice. Someone just asked
me to put fifty thousand dollars into this film called
Middle of Nowhere. It's been directed by this lady, Ava DuVernay.
(47:34):
You know what do you think? I was like, well,
send me the script. I'll give you my opinion. I
read it, blew my head off, And on the script
was the title, her name and her number, and I
called her asked her if I could be in her movie.
That's how I met Abra Wow. That was in twoenty eleven,
(47:55):
and that's how Ava came to direct Selma. If i'd
literally been sat in the rob I'm that guy. I
don't know that I'm meeting abad Vine. So you know,
to your point about divine intervention. That has been a
big part of my life. So this Hampton character is
kind of a little bit of type there you go,
a little bit, there you go. I love how you
want that back in because that is one of the
(48:15):
things I just loved about Hampton Chambers. Paul Hunter approached
me six years ago with a short film called Government Cheese,
based on his youth growing up in the Valley in
the sixties and seventies. And I'm playing a version of
his dad this in this show. And Paul has has
(48:35):
his own relationship with God. I have my very clear
relationship with God, and when I read that script, I
just related so deeply to a complicated relationship with God.
Mine is I like to think, very functional, but it
is a back and forth. There are moments where I'm confused.
There are moments where I'm like, what are you doing?
(48:58):
And That's what my character is doing throughout these ten episodes.
It's like he's trying to be a better man. He's
trying to be guided by God, but he is very,
very challenged at seeding control to God. And the tension
in the show is you take the wheel, no, I'll
take the whill. No.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
You take the wheel.
Speaker 6 (49:15):
No, I'll take the wheel, which I think is some
something that no matter where you are on the religious spectrum,
we can all relate absolutely.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
David, thank you for joining us, brother, Thank you. Government
Cheese is on Apple TV right now and it was
a pleasure talking to you. Man, don't be a stranger.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
It's David Oh yellow yellow yeah, Yellow, Yes, David O Yellow.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Definitely not making that film. He was recommended.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Now, I'm telling you, doctor Umar johnthan Biden.
Speaker 5 (49:40):
I mean it depends on when you want to live.
You want to go. Drew Ski sto, he is it?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Please?
Speaker 5 (49:52):
Please please let us like something.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
We got to see it first, Okay, Okay.
Speaker 5 (49:57):
Go look up doctor Umar and let us know how
you feel.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Okay, it's the Breakfast Reading to see what you love it.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Man, okay a just google doctor Lumar Johnson.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Nobody's never.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
See what comes happened, just happened this joy.
Speaker 7 (50:15):
When you do me like that, Oh my gosh, nobody's watching.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
It's okay, it's I'm so glad you're here. Wake that
ass up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
The Breakfast Club
Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
You op, it's the world's most dangerous morning show.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
To Breakfast Club shall mean the God Lauren le Rossa
and Bey and Jess are out, but we got a
special guest, David o' Yellowwoe was here.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Did I say it?
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Did you did? Okay? I had to ask you beforehand.
You know, I appreciate that you did.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Yeah, I see it all the time, but I'm like,
I don't want to hack it when I try to
say it.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Now everyone everyone does. But yeah, you nailed that.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How are you, sir?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I'm very good, very good. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Absolutely So.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
You got a government cheese happening right now on Apple TV.
So and watching this but also some of the other
things that I've seen you playing. Can you just first
talk about your career and like the roles that you select,
all of the roles that I know you for are
very powerful, very like you. You tell stories that are
like so important to black people coming out the gate
(00:52):
you are. Is that something you were like, Hey, this
has to be it for me, this is what I
want to do or did you just fall into these roles?
Speaker 5 (00:58):
Because how did it happen.
Speaker 6 (01:00):
No, thank you for saying that. It's very intentional. You know,
I was incredibly influenced by film and television growing up,
and I was aware quite early that the images I
was taking in were in some ways informing me of
what blackness means globally speaking. And then I had this
(01:22):
incredible moment where, having been born and grown up in
the UK, we moved back to Nigeria for six years
from the age of six to thirteen, and I was
suddenly in a country, in an environment where I was
not a minority. Everything on offer in that society was
mine for the taking, and I realized that these images
(01:44):
that I was internalizing that often had black people on
the periphery or playing what I deemed to be caricatures
or stereotypes, were insidious, were detrimental to us as a people.
And so, having moved back to the UK becoming an actor,
I felt that if I'm not part of the solution,
(02:05):
I'm part of the problem. And so I've definitely gravitated
towards roles and projects that mean that I am trying
to change what I saw growing up. I'm trying to
widen the aperture and contextualize who and what we are
as black people.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
That's interesting. I wonder how did you know that?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
You know, they were characatures and stereotypes if you've never
if you hadn't been to America to see for yourself.
Speaker 6 (02:28):
Yet, because I was living in communities where black people
were central to their own lives, and I knew that
what I was saying, because it wasn't just America, it
was in the UK as well. You know, if if
every time you see a black person they are on
the periphery of the narrative, if so often they are
criminalized or marginalized, that was not my experience walking through
(02:52):
the earth, and so I felt that's intentional, that's political,
that's propaganda in a sense, and it's having a a
detrimental effect on me because there is a disconnect between
my lived experience and what I'm internalizing on screen. And
so that's how I knew it was something to become batter.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
You know, it's so interesting, right because I have that
conversation often, because you know, when you watch film in
television in the nineties, if everything had some type of
socially redeeming value, right, you.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
And I always wonder what the hell happened to it.
It felt like it was intentional. Yeah, put them to
stop showing us that and start giving us like the
reality television.
Speaker 6 (03:31):
Yeah, well, I can tell you exactly what happened. So
often why you got you had those films that were
bringing context to who we are as black people is
because it was largely being framed and made.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
By black people.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
What has happened a lot is that our stories, we
craft them, we developed them. But at some point you've
got to take it to people who have green light power,
who are not from our demographic and so therefore you're
having to push who we are through their perception of
who we are, and it almost always gets eroded, watered down,
(04:06):
or marginalized. And that's what's happening. For some reason in
the nineties that there were there were producers, there were creatives,
there were directors who were just doing it all themselves,
and it was getting celebrated and it was less watered down.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And that's why I think we had that golden era.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah, how you go from The Cosby Show being the
number one show on television, Different World being the number
two show on television, and then all of a sudden,
it's just like, Okay, that don't work no more.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Right right.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
I think there's some intention behind it, you know, you
look at what's happening in the education system. There's a
reason why they're trying to reduce what we have access
to by way of knowledge as to who we are.
Because knowledge is power. So you take that power away,
you can continue to subjugate people. So you know, in
relation to what you said, I love what I get
(04:55):
to do. I love being a storyteller, but I do
often feel like it's also a politic act get our
stories told.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Is it ever heavy for you?
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Because I remember watching you and the story about doctor
Martin Luther King and yeah, Selma, And like, I know
there's a lot because you also have done theater. Yeah,
you're very serious about what you do, so I know
that there's a lot of study and like deep study
and things of that nature. So you're probably doing that
for every single role. And there's a lot of like
just trauma that you take on differently because you get
so close to your characters. How does that stick with you,
(05:26):
like in that pressure from outside world too, of like
these are characters and people that you know have shaped
our world.
Speaker 6 (05:32):
Yeah, I mean I try to stay away from the
trauma component. What I mostly gravitate towards aspirational representations of us.
So in playing Doctor King, the gift for me was
to see a leader, to see someone who was an icon,
but who was a human being as well. And I
(05:55):
am interested in stories where we get to be triumphant,
where we get to someone you would aspire to be,
no matter what demographic of person you are. More often
than not, when you see black people in a historical context,
we are browbeaten, we're broken down, and often we don't
we're not allowed to ascend. You won't catch me in
(06:16):
that narrative. For me personally, we have got to for
me be on an upward trajectory in whatever we do,
so it's less traumatic, it's more celebratory of who we
are without shying away from the challenges we've faced.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, they never want to show you the slave revolting right.
Speaker 6 (06:36):
Right exactly exactly. And for me, you know, that's why
I resist slave narratives because it's very hard to find
the triumphant in that. The closest I came to that
was playing bass Reefs. In that this show Low Man
bass Reefs, he starts enslaved. But the great thing about
being a producer is that you can ensure or be
(06:59):
a voice in where the narrative goes. I would not
have taken that on if he didn't go from enslavement
to empowerment. Staying in enslavement is not something that I
want to project to our people, because there are people
who enjoy that narrative as a means of.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Keeping us down.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
You said something interesting, you said it being a producer
you get to kind of like, you know, help to
figure out where the character development goes and stuff like that.
What part of your career did that become an option
for you, because not all actors have the ability to
be on a set and say, hey, I think that
we should change this or empower differently because of how
my people will see this.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
When did that happen first in your career?
Speaker 1 (07:33):
It happened by accident. It was on Selma.
Speaker 6 (07:37):
I got the script just as an actor in two
thousand and seven, felt a real calling to play that role.
But I auditioned for it and the first director said,
David o'yelowo is not Doctor King. That was literally the feedback,
And it took another seven years before the film came
to fruition. But what I could never had anticipated was
(07:59):
that I would go from being an actor who was
rejected initially to three directors later because they just kept
on not wanting to make that movie because black doesn't travel,
The audience is not going to gravitate towards it.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Whatever the excuses are. Say that, well they did back then.
Speaker 6 (08:18):
Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, you think this is a
film about doctor king Ala Perry.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
Because they said that, They told Tyler Perry black people
would in lead the theater to go to the movies.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
They don't travel beyond the.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Global you meant like global global box office, right.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Globally, but here as well.
Speaker 6 (08:33):
Then the narrative was black people don't want to see
black struggle. White people don't want to see, you know,
feel white guilt and things like that. But you know,
it wasn't until twenty ten. Lee Daniels actually came along
and was the one who actually cast me in it.
Still couldn't get the film made. In the meantime, I
did a small film with Averduvener called Middle of Nowhere,
(08:55):
small two hundred thousand dollars movie, and I felt.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
She is a genius.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
Lee had moved on from the project because they wouldn't
give him enough money to make it, and I went
in and fought very hard for Ava to be the
one to direct it. She rewrote the script. It was
a brilliant rewrite of the script. Still couldn't get it made.
I'd done the Butler with Oprah at that time. I
invited Oprah on to be a producer on the film.
(09:22):
Twelve Years a Slave came out and had done well,
which had broken down this notion of our stories not traveling.
And so the aggregation of all of those things is
what went on to mean Selma got made well. I
didn't realize I was doing by bringing on Ava, bringing
on Oprah, fighting daily to try and get the thing made,
was producing and so I thought, oh, okay, well I
(09:44):
can do that again for the things that I believe
in and I'm passionate about. And so you know, that
was ten eleven years ago now and I haven't stopped since.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Why didn't it.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
I was just gonna say, that's so crazy, because twel
Years a Slave came out in twenty thirteen, that was
even still a conversation then.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
It was the conversation back then. I mean, I had
done the last King of Scotland before that, and people
may not remember. But even though we think of Forest
Whitaker in that film, the lead of that film was
actually James McAvoy. They would not have made that film
(10:20):
unless there was the Scottish white doctor as the lead
of the role. It was the sheer force of Forest
Whitaker's performance that meant he went on to win Best Actor.
I was in The Help. It was the character played
by Emma Stone who was the lead character of The Help,
not Viola Davis, not Octavius Spencer. It was the sheer
force of their performances that means that they are the
(10:43):
ones we think about. So when I first read Selma
in two thousand and seven, Lyndon Johnson was the lead character.
Doctor King was a supporting character. This is how these
films were getting made back there.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Then.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
They were always fronted by by white characters and you
were sort of on the on the periphery. But it's
this year force of who we are as performers that
meant that you go, oh, that's you know the same.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Thing with Glory.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
You know, Matthew Broderick is the lead of that movie,
but we think of Denzel and Morgan Freeman, you know,
in that movie. So that's how these films always got
made until you know, twenty thirteen there was twelve Years
a Slave without Twelve Years a Slave. I don't think
Selma gets green lit in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Is there racism or business?
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Is racism real? No? I mean it's that it's not business.
Speaker 6 (11:33):
When the Butler, we couldn't get the film made because
no one would put money in. We had to go
to can to raise the funds. We sold seventeen maybe
eighteen foreign territories got the eighteen million dollars to make
the movie. The only reason the film got completed, because
that wasn't enough money to make it, is because a
hurricane hit the set. So we use the insurance money
(11:56):
to complete the movie.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So we made it.
Speaker 6 (11:58):
I think at the end of the day was a
twenty five million dollars we made that movie for it
made one hundred and seventy two million dollars. So it's
not business because you know, anytime we end up making
these shows or these films and they succeed, they then
get deemed that they have overperformed, which in my even
(12:18):
with the white lead, yes, but because because well in
The Butler, for as witzakers the lead and its centers
around a black family. So that's why there was resistance
to making it. But there's no way you're struggling to
raise twenty five million dollars to make a movie if
you knew it was going to make one hundred and
seventy two million dollars. The assumption is that it won't
(12:41):
make that money. So that's why I say it's not
a business decision, it's a yea.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I just wonder what those assumptions are based off. Are
they based off box office success? I mean, you know
now in twenty twenty five, it would be much harder
to have those conversations because of the success of a
lot of black laid movies.
Speaker 6 (13:00):
Then, you know, because we've eroded the lie we have
too many we have draw data. And that's the thing
that streaming has done as well, you know, streaming. For
I saw a clear uptick in my career when streaming
came along. Because the reason why it's racism is it's
tied to the opinion of a very small sample size
(13:21):
of people who are not our demographic, who make these
decisions purely based on opinion, not on raw data. Now, Netflix, Amazon, Apple.
You know there is data we see the you know
law men bass Reeves. I tried to get that show
made for ten years. It got rejected by Hollywood three times.
Went on to be the most successful widely viewed show
(13:44):
on Apple TV plus globally in twenty twenty three. There's
no way would that was the estimation of what it
would be, you know, in relation to how many times
it was rejected.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So we have consistently.
Speaker 6 (13:59):
Eroded them, but we still are being saddled with this
what I deem to be a pejorative, which is it overperformed. No,
didn't overperform, just performed. The audience gravitated towards it because
we're human beings telling great stories in a great way
and the global audience are rewarding us for it.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I do get mad at uh.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I do get mad at us sometimes when we don't
show up for certain projects, right, because you have to, like,
at the end of the day, it's still I understand
everything you're saying, and you're right, but it is still
a business, yeah, at the end of the day, and
we make it easy for them to say no when
we don't show up.
Speaker 6 (14:35):
Well, I guess it depends on when you deem us
not showing up. I've definitely had projects where I was like, oh,
come on, guys, show up. But you know, I think
we're fourteen percent of the population here, but black and
brown people.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
You know, we're trillion dollars in spending exactly here.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
Yeah, but we over index. It's like forty percent of
viewership on a on streaming. It's us, you know. So
we show up for the art form. We are the culture.
We are the drivers of the culture. And so to
constantly have the folks who are driving that culture on
(15:14):
the margins of it doesn't really make sense.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I wonder if it's the type of art too, though.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
That is either because they're quick to make a comedy, right,
they'll make a right, you know what I mean, But
when it's actually something of some substance, Yeah, it's a
little harder to make.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
Well, that's why, And to your point, that's why I
try to push the envelope with what I do. I'm
always trying to find something that is a fresh way
into telling a story. So, you know, Government Cheese is
a comedy, but it's a surrealist, parabolic, fantastical comedy that
has this sort of spiritual journey element, something you'd probably
(15:48):
expect more from Wes Anderson than from us. So it's
it's comedy, but I like to think it has more substance,
you know, artistically, that there's there's there's layers to it,
and so it's a little bit chicken and egg as well,
because if we get opportunities to do one thing and
(16:10):
that one thing is doing well, well, you're going to
keep feeding that machine. If it's harder for us to
color outside the lines, and then there's so much pressure
on whether that thing succeeds or not. That's really difficult
because you know, if I'm a white person and I'm
taking a big swing, the chances are I'm going to
have about four, five, six, maybe seven at bats, you know,
(16:32):
with us one maybe two, and so that puts a
lot of pressure. So the temptation is to keep on
doing the safe thing. But that's the thing I've I've
told myself, I can't afford to be safe.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I want to ask real quick, why didn't they want you?
Why didn't the director want you to play Mlkay?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well?
Speaker 6 (16:45):
His reason, well, he was he was entitled to his opinion.
I mean he was a white male director. Who I
think was more focused on the LBJ character and he
had another actor in mind, Like I say, his his
his his choice. But to be honest, when I think
(17:06):
about it now, that's not the version of the story
I would have ever truly been proud of. Or you know,
that's in line with those other movies I talked about.
You see it with The Constant Gardener or Blood Diamond
as well. You know, these these films that insist on
a white protagonist when we are central to the story,
and that's what that version of someone was going to be.
(17:27):
So I'm actually really glad that that version isn't isn't
the one that got made.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
What's success for you now?
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Because when I think about the Semmer movie, I remember
the Ascar situation where you guys were up for these
wars like the movie itself within you and able to
do rene and you spoke out and said that you
feel like you guys were snub because you protested wearing
that I can't breath t shirts.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
So it can't be a war shows for you at
this point, right.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
No, no, no, no, no, I mean.
Speaker 6 (17:53):
The the the opportunity that adversity has afforded is to
know that Ultimately, I don't know that those accolades are
necessarily designed with us in mind. Don't get me wrong,
happy to get them if and when they come along.
But the reward which I couldn't have for seeing with
(18:15):
Selma was Oscar so white. You know, the fact that
Selma started that movement and meant that our industry was
held to account from without the industry. The culture literally
said we do not agree with how you treated that
film or how you're treating us generally, and that pressure
(18:35):
really did change the face of Hollywood for a time anyway.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
You know, it definitely moved the needle.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Because that year all twenty act nominees were white.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Right.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
But so for you when you come in after that
year and you're you know what I mean, you do
your whole back. You're very vocal about how you feel
what you're experiencing on the business side of it as
a producer, someone that is directing and doing all these
things that you're doing. Are studios welcoming you with opening
arms like in an ideal world or do you feel
the resistance more after a moment like that.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
It's complicated because you know, in that situation, it was
that first year and then the next year it was.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
The same thing.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Right.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
So you know what was helpful about that is that
you again, like I said earlier, data, it's I'm not
just playing the race card. I'm not just complaining you
have two years in a row where every nominee is
a white person and not a person of color. That
suggests there is something wrong with our industry when you
(19:30):
consider how much our communities support this industry, how prolific
we are within this industry, the work that we're producing,
which the audience is saying they value and are remunerating
at the box office, and so that becomes something you
can hold the industry accountable to. And that's something, like
you say, I've been vocal about. I've been very energized about,
(19:52):
and that has been a big driver for my work.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I love something you say.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
You said, an opportunity that adversity has afforded.
Speaker 6 (19:58):
Yeah, you expound on it for well, you know, when
you're in the middle of it, it's no fun, you know,
when your film is being attacked, when it's being accused
of inaccuracy, when people are saying, actually, the Selmer March
was Lyndon Johnson's idea, not doctor King's idea, all of
which is completely true. Sorry, all of which is completely false.
(20:18):
But you can feel the reason you're being attacked is
because you're actually doing something worthwhile. Doesn't feel great, breaking
new ground doesn't feel great, but the ultimate reward is
there is nowhere in the world I go now where
you know black people in particular are not just hugely
(20:39):
supportive of me. Because that adversity that we face publicly,
people are facing in their lives privately and say they go,
I see you, I see what you're trying to do.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I'm with you.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
I'm going to support you. And so that level of
support is something no one can take from me. And
since that adversity, I can feel it, and it's a
continuing ground swell because my contracts not just with black
people as an audience, but with the audience generally, is
I'm going to just consistently try to contextualize who we
are as black people. If you're down for that, come
(21:13):
on the ride with me. And that may have not
been something I was so focused on if I had
had all the accolades that you know could have been afforded.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
I want to talk about government cheese. So the name
itself of the series. Let's talk about that first, because
it's referring to the government Cheese program, which is a
kind of like an overarching conversation that you guys have
throughout the series without.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Really having it all the way.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Yeah, so talk about the you know, just the choice
to title it that, and you know what, you hope
the hope is that people get just from looking at
the title before they even see it.
Speaker 6 (21:44):
Yeah, I mean, government cheese for us was symbolic of
what we tend to do as black people. You know,
necessity being the mother of invention. We will take nothing
and make it into something. And government cheese, as people
may know, as government subsidized food. There was powdered eggs,
there was powdered milk as well, and with government cheese
(22:05):
in particular. You talk to people even now they have this,
you know, they go into this place in their heads
when they think about those grilled cheese sandwiches or the
mac and cheese, and they talk about it incredibly fondly
because it was, you know, a not particularly nutritious food
that people made into a delicacy. And what you have
with the Chambers family is that they are this black
(22:27):
family in the valley in the sixties, making something out
of nothing. This guy starts the show incarcerated, has this
epiphany about making a self sharpening drill. It's going to
be the means by which his family comes out of
the challenging situations they're in. So it's aspirational. You have
the character that Simone Misic plays. She's a receptionist, but
(22:49):
she wants to be an interior designer. You have our
son who's aspiring to be a pole vaulter. You have
this other son of ours who you know is completely
obsessed with Native American culture. Every One is looking beyond
where they are from an aspirational point of view, and
in many ways, government cheese is sort of symbolic of that.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
What's the equivalent of government cheese in the UK? I
don't as a british Man, did you understand what that was?
Speaker 6 (23:12):
Yes, I mean we don't have exactly the same thing,
but I remember, you know, you got bottles of milk
that everyone got, you know, that would get dropped at
your house every morning, and that was something that was
across the nation. Super rich people were not getting that necessarily,
but it was you know, lower income families. So that's
the closest that we got in terms of that situation.
(23:35):
But the thing I know from living in the UK,
living in Nigeria and Africa, living here is that wherever
you go, the resilience of black people in terms of
you know, making something out of nothing is just something
that feels pretty universe.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
You've had other roles that have highlighted black life in
the sixties. What about Government Cheese felt different from those
other projects.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
This is the amount of joy on display and just
the relatability.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I think.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
You know, our experience is very specific, especially in the
sixties as it pertains to civil rights and black struggle.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
But you know, with this family, they are dealing not.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Only with economic challenges but marital challenges, and they're raising
kids and you know, just just trying to make ends meet,
and I think all of those things are what make
it fresh and familiar. At the same time, you know,
you've seen black people in the sixties, but never quite
like this, never quite in this place, and never this family.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
You know, they're kind of out there.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
But you know, I have a four kids myself, and
you know it's weird. It's not until you go to
a restaurant and you see people looking at you. Finally
you realize how weird and quirky your own family is
because you're just being super loud and people are king
into your conversation. So I think we're probably a little
bit more quick and with than we can to admit.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Well, this this series is definitely a lot more like
light and fun and you know, even though it takes
on like some serious undertones. But I was reading this
article that you did with a mentalth magazine and you
were talking about going out into Wyoming on a ranch
with your kids. Oh yeah, And I when I saw
the article, I was like, this is like a random
interview for him to have right now. And then I
was reading and I was like, I get it because
(25:25):
you put yourself in the light of like a person
who has had to learn again to just like relax
and just be fun and just be a person.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Because you know, you're studying your acting, you're working.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Then there's clauses where you can't go out and do
stuff like that, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
but those moments with your kids where you're just they're
seeing you as like a human or as like Dad
is fun, dad can do these things. How does that
reignite you when you get back on these sets, you know,
and you take on these characters like the one in
a government cheese.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
I'm so glad you brought that up, because you know,
everything I'm saying is hard work. And you know, when
I make a show, probably in the past, to an
unhealthy degree, I feel like it's a political act. I
feel like it's not just about me going to work
and taking on a story. I'm bringing my paper with me,
(26:15):
and you could argue that there are elements of that
that are unhealthy. And so to smell the roses while
you're on the journey, to continue to intentionally enjoy your family,
enjoy your marriage, enjoy your home has been something that
I've tried to afford myself more and more as I've
got deeper into my career, especially as there are now
(26:38):
more wins on the board. You know, there are really
significant things I've done that are absolutely in line with
what I set out to do, and the temptation is
to just be like, Okay, what's next, what's next, What's next?
And you know, I have four kids, three boys and
a girl. I have a wife who I deeply love,
and you know that is just as important and a
(27:00):
life well lived is not really about what you did.
It's how you made people feel. And the thing, well,
there you go, and you're right, and and I want
the people closest to me to feel like I was present,
to feel like I didn't just say I loved them,
but my actions demonstrated that as well. And I think
(27:22):
that's time. That's just constantly demonstrating to the people you
love that you value being in their presence. And so
that is That's what I'm working on it. I'm not
going to tell you that you know, I'm all the
way there, but that's definitely an intention. I'm trying to
bring more into my life.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Is that what you meant when you said in the
article that you came back a different dad.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
From which in that yeah, I came back a different Wow.
You guys really do your research. You really read that article.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Whoever whoever was that pitched that that was so smart
because in looking you up everything else. Okay, okay, I've knowed, Well,
you don't just end up in mental magazine.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Oh I thought.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
I would have ran it up too, but no, when
I saw that, I was like, it was so genius
because I think your reputation as an actor is so
like it. It's very like stern and you know, silent
and serious. And then I said this article about you
doing all this stuff with my ooman with your kids,
I'm like, wait, hold on, what maybe having fun?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
So it made that's what I guess.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yeah, when you said you came back a different dad,
I guess you just realized, like, I can't just be
so much into my work.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I still got to be pops.
Speaker 6 (28:35):
But but also, you know, I was a really rambunctious kid.
I would throw myself all over the place. I was
one of three boys. And then I had my own
kids and I got super like wrapping them in cotton wool,
like careful, careful, don't do that, you know. And then
we went on this trip where we're horse riding and
(28:55):
the ATVing and we're you're shooting arrows and bike riding,
and I just really just let myself go, probably a
bit too much because I went flying over the handlebars
of the ATV at one point. But you know, I
do that when I'm playing a role, because it's like
throw yourself into the role, do whatever the role requires.
(29:16):
But for my kids to see me having fun in
that way was an eye opener for them, and I
came back differently because I was like, you know what,
I am almost playing a role for my kids in
order for them to be safe, but they also need
to see dad sort of letting loose and having fun,
because then they'll hopefully take the right kind of risks,
(29:38):
not just you know, careless risks. And it was a
shift in the dynamic, and it was something I actually
didn't want to go on. Particularly my wife won it
in a raffle, this trip to this dude runch and
then sent us all out. And you know, I'm so
grateful that we did it, and we've done so many
more things like that since.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Then because it was a hugely beneficial for our family.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Want a trip at a raffle? Yeah, I get you
more money for a movie?
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yeah, yeah, hell yeah yeah. I know. I know that
made it sound bad.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Did you have any reservations about playing MLK because you
are a British actor and you know there's always that
thing or why are all the British actors playing the
roles of American icons?
Speaker 6 (30:19):
No, because of the way it came in. You know,
when I read the script in two thousand and seven,
I had never been thinking of myself as doctor King,
you know, but I'm a Christian. I was in a
time of praying and fasting and I felt God, tell
me you were going to play this role. And then
the way it came about eventually, which is that, you know,
(30:41):
I can safely say pretty much no one worked as
hard to get that.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Film made as I did.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
And I would probably say no one else was quite
as influential in getting that film made, between bringing on Ava,
between bringing on Oprah, between all the work done behind
the scenes to try and get the film. So for me,
I just found it unacceptable that the only American who
had a holiday named after him in the twentieth century,
who happens to be a black man, had not had
(31:11):
a film made about him. Yet I wasn't feeling like
I have to be the one to make it. But
this was already fifty years after his assassination. Why do
we not have the movie? And I'm a big believer
in if not me, then who, And so I was
never really thinking I'm British, it should be someone else.
And the reality is that when Lee Daniels was casting
(31:34):
for it, he met everyone I met. I saw the
list of some of the people he met, I was like,
oh my lord, I cannot believe I'm going up against
my heroes to even dare think I'm going to be
the one to play this. But I eventually got the role,
and so for me it's a question of Okay, now
I've been given the opportunity, It's less about whether or
(31:55):
not I should play it. It's more about how well
I do it, and that is going to be, at
the end of the day, the thing that I want
people to judge. And so I never really thought about
it in that way, because at the end of the day,
I have no interest in playing.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Myself on Spain.
Speaker 6 (32:09):
I'm always going to be gravitating towards the most extreme
challenge in terms of playing someone who's not necessarily me.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Oh, you answer that question when people say why do
British actors often portray Americans in movies and on TV,
but American actors rarely play British.
Speaker 6 (32:23):
Character I would say that the question comes from a
place of scarcity as opposed to the artistry of what
we do. Daniel day Lewis is never having to feel
that question when he plays Lincoln. You know, white British
actors who play a myriad of American roles Christian Bale,
Kate Winslet you know, they just not ask that question.
(32:46):
We don't ask that question when Meryl Streep goes and
plays Margaret Thatcher.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Really we'd actually don't really ask that question.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
When Forrest Whitaker goes and plays idiomein an African character,
or Morgan Freeman goes and plays Nelson Mandela, or the
Great and late Chadwick Boseman plays an African character in
Black Panther. I think it's to do with scarcity here
as it pertains to the work we have. And so
if there's scarcity, there are less opportunities, who gets the
(33:16):
opportunity is more scrutinized, and I think it's a function
of that, and so I'm less concerned with that debate.
I'm more engaged with let's create more opportunity and let's
actually realize there's more pie than we care to realize
or admit. And if you don't know that, create that,
(33:38):
you know, because Morgan Freeman tried to get Bassries made
for thirty years. I just don't understand how Morgan Freeman
couldn't get that made. You know, I came along one
hundred and fifty years after Bassrides was walking the earth,
and you know, I feel very blessed that I managed
to get it made. My question becomes, would you rather
didn't get made or that just wait another one hundred
(34:01):
and fifty years. You know, I can't speak to why
I've been the one afoord of the opportunity, but I
will tell you that it's pretty tough to outwork me
when it comes to getting these stories right.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
And I welcome, you know.
Speaker 6 (34:17):
A situation whereby Biola Davis gets to play an African
warrior in Woman King. You know, that's that's what we
should be doing because we are all from that place.
And so you know, like I say, all those African
Americans playing African characters is beautiful. I don't see why
it is so contested when the flow is the other way.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Yeah, I forgot who we were talking to.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
It was an American actor, I can't remember, and they
were just simply they simply said, because British actors are
better and they take the craft more serious.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
And yeah, I challenge that.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
I challenged that because I think it's also to do
with opportunity. Look, the tradition in the UK is you
go to Drama school for three years. It's an expensive education.
My son is at Lambda, the same school I went
to right now, it's expensive. I managed to get a
scholarship to go there. Here there are great actors who
(35:14):
have trained. There's Andre Holland, There's Coleman Domingo, There's Grantham Coleman,
there are there are these extraordinary actors who have trained
and are getting those opportunities. Chad Chad, Chad Boseman was
trained as well, and so I wouldn't say that it's
a question of better. There's just a tradition in the
(35:34):
UK where it's almost an apprenticeship. You do those three years,
then I went I was at the Royal Shakespeare Company
for another three years, so that's six year training, you know.
So when I then eventually turn up to Hollywood ten
years after I've graduated, I'm coming in with a wealth
of opportunity and training that I had.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
In the UK.
Speaker 6 (35:54):
And that's a tougher thing to get here economically speaking,
the great schools that provide that kind of education. But
I'm working with African American actors who are just extraordinary.
I mean, you know, it was one of the things
I was very focused on when we did Bass Reefs.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
You have Lauren E.
Speaker 6 (36:09):
Banks who went to Howard and Yale. You have Jorquina
Kalakango who was at Juilliard. You have Granthan Coleman who trained,
You have these extraordinary actors. It's just that they're not
getting the opportunities to advance at the rate that their
white counterparts will, and so we don't get It's why
we don't get to know who Denzel is or Morgan
(36:30):
Freeman is or Don Chiedo is they're in their thirties
their forties, because it's all tied to opportunity.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
I saw a quote when you were talking about just
African stories that are being told right now. Yeah, because
you mentioned us being able to play roles for those
type of movies and you said that you don't feel
like there's enough stories out of Africa that don't involve
a white savior.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
Yeah, Like, can you.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Expand more on that and like the feeling around that,
And I know you have your production company and your
wife and some of the things that you're doing to
kind of count that.
Speaker 6 (36:59):
Yeah, I mean tradition speaking like I said before, for
a narrative to come out of Africa and be deemed global.
There tends to be a mindset that it needs to
be fronted by a white person to make it palatable,
to make it so that the West is going to
in some ways embrace it.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
The weird thing about that is that the.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
Global majority is black and brown people, not white people,
and that's over a billion Africans who now you know,
the piracy issue is becoming solved by streaming, and you know,
the diaspora is huge.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
So some of this.
Speaker 6 (37:41):
Thinking, in my opinion, is antiquated and comes from a
time where it was still twelve people in Hollywood dictating
what should be made and how it's going to be
seen and whether or not it's going to be successful.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
When you have.
Speaker 6 (37:53):
Squid Gain being one of the biggest shows on Netflix
and it's not even English speaking, that shows that globally speaking,
we've been being told lies about what an audience is
going to gravitate towards on the basis of who's fronting
it or not. And some of that mindset still exists
because a lot of the gatekeepers still retain that mindset
(38:15):
because they are still the gatekeepers in power, being able
to say what gets made or not. So my point
is that We need more African stories. We just need
more stories. And I think a huge untapped source of
amazing global storytelling is Africa, absolutely and so, and for
(38:35):
those stories to be authentic, they need to be made
by people who are integrated in that culture, because I
truly believe the universal is found in the specific. The
more authentic those stories are, I actually think the more
potent they become.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Do you ever, could you have your production companies Euroba Saxon,
Eorba Saxon, So I know that you and your wife
co run that production company, and I'm sure a lot
of the stories that you guys tell are very close
to the heart as far as like black stories just
by your passion here do you get backlasher all because
you're not married to a black woman doing that?
Speaker 5 (39:08):
And how do you deal with that?
Speaker 6 (39:09):
If sol not to my face, I'm sure there are
plenty of people who feel some kind of way about that.
But we called it Yuba Saxon because you know, I'm
from the Yuoba tribe in Nigeria. She's Anglo Saxon, and
so you know, our company is a demonstration of the
(39:31):
fact that we are more alike than we are different
as human beings. Generally speaking, you know, in making government cheese. Yes,
it's a black family. But my hope and my bet
is that everyone is going to see their family in
that family because of the relatable themes and components that
we've woven into it. And so, you know, I'm incredibly
(39:54):
proud of my family. I fell in love with my
wife when Gusha. We met when we were teenagers. We
got married with she was twenty, I was twenty two.
And everything we have we built together. So you know,
for me, sometimes the accusation, you know, in marrying a
white woman is you know, they say things like there's
self loathing in there, or what's the other one, or
(40:17):
that she's a trophy or something like that we she
we were so poor when we started out, they couldn't
be less trophy or if it tried. But you know,
I am an incredibly proud black man, African Christian husband, father.
(40:37):
There are so many things that I am on top
of my demographic and who I'm married to, and those
are all reflected in the work that I and we do.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
And it's been twenty five years which are together.
Speaker 6 (40:49):
Twenty six years married, thirty years next month that we've
known each other.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
What have y'all learned, just as like co producers and
working partners on projects like race or just like.
Speaker 6 (41:00):
Oh god, I mean work life balance. That's a real
thing to try and find. We have a two week
rule whenever apart for more than two weeks. We managed
that for twenty six years. Yeah, because you know, to
be in a relationship, you have to be in proximity
to be able to relate. Ours is a very tough
business on marriages, and so you know, we we we
made that choice because we didn't want to be another
(41:22):
statistic in our in our business. We learned that, you know,
the marriage is the center. The kids are a welcome addition.
Do not let the kids be the glue between you,
you know, always keep stay invested in in that relationship.
And those things have all stood us in good stead
as business partners, you know, respect, never taking each other
(41:45):
for granted, you know the thing, those are the things
that have kept us strong.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
You and your wife should be thinking about producing a
biopic on a great man named doctor Umar Johnson.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
He's an activist here in America. Scholar.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, think about that.
Speaker 7 (41:59):
Just look look at look into it. Listen here, listen
I'm going to keep looking at you. He's about to
get in trouble. Was that about to become a mean?
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Just then?
Speaker 5 (42:12):
That was about me?
Speaker 1 (42:14):
A mean?
Speaker 5 (42:14):
There's a whole change.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Trust me, they'll love you for that role.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
That you will pitch that you morally said to yourself,
I can't do this.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Well.
Speaker 6 (42:24):
What tends to happen is the minute you play a
civil rights leader, you get every civil rights leader who's
ever lived, which so I definitely definitely said though to those.
The minute you play a groundbreaking character, there's a whole
genre called the first black man who. You know, I
get a lot of first black man who, which I'm
not interested in.
Speaker 5 (42:45):
What's the craziest thing? You was like, you don't even
know a black man? Didn't it?
Speaker 6 (42:50):
I mean, I want to say that there have been one.
There have been like windscreen wipers, the guy who invented
the paper clip, the guy like like it's it's it's ridiculous.
It gets as ridiculous as that, and people will come
to you like full of passion. The other one you
want to really avoid is when someone goes, man, I
(43:10):
got this script, it's a boy, my dad and h
he the first person who had a car wash in
Alabama and all that kind of stuff, and it's just like,
I don't know how.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
To tell you that that is not a movie.
Speaker 6 (43:26):
I'm just I'm just so sorry, but that's not going
to be my next but I got your.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Next project, go in and out.
Speaker 5 (43:32):
It is crazy.
Speaker 6 (43:35):
Because it happens a lot of a lot to me.
So so yeah, those are the ones to avoid as well.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Oh you mentioned so casually multiple times, Oprah, but.
Speaker 5 (43:46):
Just just very casually.
Speaker 4 (43:48):
I read another story about when you invite her to
Odello opening night and she had to sit on the
hard benches and she never let you let that down.
Speaker 6 (43:55):
She just never stopped talking about child those benches. But
she came to Coriolanus, which I just did in London,
and they had cushionsy, yes, so you know we are
beyond the bad benches now. But yeah, and they were
very tough benches towards three hours of Shakespeare.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
So she fair point. But I'm glad that we've broken
the deadlock.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
She show up a lot for you, though.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
It sounds like just in what I'm hearing you say,
like what's that relationship? And like, because you know, Oprain,
come at the house for everybody.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
She she is not, She's not. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 6 (44:30):
We met doing The Butler together, and I remember being
stood at a party at Lee Daniel's house that he
was renting in New Orleans when we were shooting that film,
and it was at a time when I just felt
I felt very isolated.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I felt very alone.
Speaker 6 (44:44):
I'd moved here with my family, If I'm totally honest,
I felt like there were other actors who saw me
as a threat in a way that confused me, because
I was like, I'm just you know, I'd come out
of theater in the UK. It's an environment where it's
all about, you know, about the work and working together,
and there are people who are like, you know, that
(45:06):
coming here to take our jobs thing was a real
thing I was feeling. And I just remember still being
stood in a corner at this party, and Oprah came
up to me and said, you okay, I said, you
know what, you know, I'm really glad to have gotten
this movie.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
But it's just I don't know if you've ever felt this, just.
Speaker 6 (45:23):
Like like your own community is is resisting you, which
is what I'm feeling.
Speaker 7 (45:33):
She's the first, whatever you said earlier, the first ever
I know, and so exactly your reaction.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
There was her reaction. She was like baby, and she
talked about how Sidney Poitier was the one who took
her under his wing and said, no, you're not crazy.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
This is a real thing.
Speaker 6 (45:53):
It's something that is unfortunately part of ascending in our community.
And he mentored her and she literally said to me,
I am going to do for you what he did
for me. And she has never abated on that. You know,
summer doesn't happen without her, My directorial debut doesn't acting
happen without her. So much of the advice, so much
(46:15):
that of the financial literacy I have came from her
because I didn't come from means. My parents were not
particularly good business people, even though they had a business.
And so yeah, she has really really made good on
that promise and it's been absolutely life changing.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
People definitely hate you now, just pop outside.
Speaker 6 (46:38):
I know, I know, I know, I made a rod
for my back. I should have shut up. Would you
can pass? Would you consider that a moment of divine intervention? Absolutely?
So many moments in my life have been divine intervention.
And when I when I look at how indisputably my
life changed for having met her. But you look at
(47:01):
the journey towards even playing Doctor King in Selma. You know,
like I said when I first read that script in seven,
the reason I ever even met Ava Duverna.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Is because I sat down next to.
Speaker 6 (47:13):
A guy on a plane who was watching a TV
show I had done in the UK on his iPad.
He looks to me and says, is this you I'm
watching on my iPad? I said yes. He pauses it says, oh, okay,
you're an actor. Give me some advice. Someone just asked
me to put fifty thousand dollars into this film called
Middle of Nowhere. It's been directed by this lady, Ava DuVernay.
(47:34):
You know what do you think? I was like, well,
send me the script. I'll give you my opinion. I
read it, blew my head off, And on the script
was the title, her name and her number, and I
called her asked her if I could be in her movie.
That's how I met Abra Wow. That was in twoenty eleven,
(47:55):
and that's how Ava came to direct Selma. If i'd
literally been sat in the rob I'm that guy. I
don't know that I'm meeting abad Vine. So you know,
to your point about divine intervention. That has been a
big part of my life. So this Hampton character is
kind of a little bit of type there you go,
a little bit, there you go. I love how you
want that back in because that is one of the
(48:15):
things I just loved about Hampton Chambers. Paul Hunter approached
me six years ago with a short film called Government Cheese,
based on his youth growing up in the Valley in
the sixties and seventies. And I'm playing a version of
his dad this in this show. And Paul has has
(48:35):
his own relationship with God. I have my very clear
relationship with God, and when I read that script, I
just related so deeply to a complicated relationship with God.
Mine is I like to think, very functional, but it
is a back and forth. There are moments where I'm confused.
There are moments where I'm like, what are you doing?
(48:58):
And That's what my character is doing throughout these ten episodes.
It's like he's trying to be a better man. He's
trying to be guided by God, but he is very,
very challenged at seeding control to God. And the tension
in the show is you take the wheel, no, I'll
take the whill. No.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
You take the wheel.
Speaker 6 (49:15):
No, I'll take the wheel, which I think is some
something that no matter where you are on the religious spectrum,
we can all relate absolutely.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
David, thank you for joining us, brother, Thank you. Government
Cheese is on Apple TV right now and it was
a pleasure talking to you. Man, don't be a stranger.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
It's David Oh yellow yellow yeah, Yellow, Yes, David O Yellow.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Definitely not making that film. He was recommended.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Now, I'm telling you, doctor Umar johnthan Biden.
Speaker 5 (49:40):
I mean it depends on when you want to live.
You want to go. Drew Ski sto, he is it?
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Please?
Speaker 5 (49:52):
Please please let us like something.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
We got to see it first, Okay, Okay.
Speaker 5 (49:57):
Go look up doctor Umar and let us know how
you feel.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Okay, it's the Breakfast Reading to see what you love it.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Man, okay a just google doctor Lumar Johnson.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Nobody's never.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
See what comes happened, just happened this joy.
Speaker 7 (50:15):
When you do me like that, Oh my gosh, nobody's watching.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
It's okay, it's I'm so glad you're here. Wake that
ass up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
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