Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I understand some folks are gonna say, Roster, are you
really talking about this on a day where there's a
there's a plane crash?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Yes, I am uh And I wanted to have this
conversation for several days and we're doing it today. I
am very pleased to be joined by doctor Eli Shoop.
She's a a professor assistant professor at the University of
Texas at Arlington in the Philosophy and Humanity's department. She's
got a master's in philosophy, she's got a PhD in philosophy.
(00:29):
And before we before we talk about your your really
interesting piece, Eliab. Have you ever heard the comedian Steve
Martin talking about philosophy?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I have not.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
What does he say?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So? He said, yeah, it's thanks for thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
She He says, Well, if you're studying geology, it's all
facts and numbers, and unless you're doing it for a job,
you forget it as soon as you're done studying it.
But with philosophy, you remember just enough to screw you
up for the rest of your life.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
That is very true. And the more you know that
you don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I probably my favorite class that I ever took in
my entire life was introduction to philosophy that I took
in high school with a German professor named doctor Otto Mauer,
who let me take the class even though I was
only a sophomore and it was normally a junior and
senior class.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And just the whole concept that.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You can study how to think about thinking, which was
something I had never thought about as a sixteen year old.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I just loved it, and I still do.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So I'm a little jealous you get to make a
living doing philosophy.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I feel lucky every day.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
You wrote a really interesting piece, and apparently looking at
your other work, it's a topic you've cared about for
quite some time. The headline this is in the Washington
Post in the opinion section in the op eds is
how human bodies end up on section tables without consent?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And the subhead the remains of poor people in.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Texas were dissected for medical research.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
They deserve better.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So there's so many aspects of this to talk about,
But why don't we just talk about the most obvious question, Like,
normally you think somebody dies, there's a body, the family
comes and take it or takes it. What why are
their bodies lying around for whatever reason.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
A lot of people's bodies go unclaimed, you know, every
day in America, either they have they simply have no
next of kin or you know, loved ones who would
see the final arrangements, or those next of kin can't
be reached or found, or maybe they're there. But to
claim a body isn't just you know, pulling up with
a pickup truck. You need to have arrangements in place
(02:47):
for cremation or burial. You need to have that body
transferred to a funeral home from the Medical Examiner's office.
And some people simply can't afford that the average cost
of cremation is about one thousand dollars in the country.
So sometimes it's estrangement, lack of next of kins, sometimes
it's financial. So, but these bodies go unclaimed. And this
you know, there have always been unclaimed bodies in America.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Okay, So specifically with these unclaimed bodies, where were they, like,
which governmental agency or which state or which county or
which city?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Where where were the bodies.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And then who claimed who claimed them for a particular purpose.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, so this actually isn't specific to Texas. This is
something that is legal in most of the United States.
But basically, in most of the country, if no one
claims your body, the county is going to be the
level of government that deals with it, right, They're going
to have to see to the final arrangements. In most states,
it is actually legal for the county to donate those
(03:47):
bodies for the advancement of medical science to a mortuary
school or a medical school. And there's no legal requirement
in most of these states for any permission to begin
from next of kin or any prior consent to have
been received from the deceased right, And it's something that
not a lot of people know about. Basically, it's this
(04:10):
little loophole where if you die poor you don't leave
enough money behind to cover the cost of burial or cremation,
you might end up dissected, you know, without even having
been able to anticipate that could happen.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Okay, I'll play Devil's advocate for a second, just to
just to set up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Why is that a problem? Great question?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
So I am going to agree with the Devil's advocate
on a lot of points. I think that doctors need
bodies on which to train their art. I am actually
a registered body donor myself, I have a card. If
there were a huge shortage of human remains that could
(04:52):
be used for training, you know, maybe that might partly
justify it. But it's act of the matter is there's
no shortage. Most of the bodies used in medical schools
are willed body donors, So so for one, we're not
hurting for bodies. In fact, some of the medical schools
that accept unclaimed bodies make money off of them by
leasing them out, you know, to medical device corporations things
(05:16):
like that is sort of profit taking. But more importantly,
I think it just matters that people have given permission
or that their family members have because if we start
treating you know, human remains like they don't matter, we
might start treating humans like they don't matter in medicine,
and medicine has a long history of treating people in
(05:38):
problematic ways, right, Like in the past, we didn't really
care about consent in medicine quite as much. You know,
African Americans were experimented on without their knowledge. Okay, so
like we want to move away from that sort of
you know, way way of treating people, in a way
of thinking about people. But also like another reason why
it matters is because people think it matter utters. So
(06:01):
a lot of people are really upset when they find
out their loved ones have been used like this, and
it's going to make people less likely to donate their
bodies to science. It might even make them less likely
to trust healthcare professionals. So I think it might seriously
harm public trust, and it falls short of sort of
the professional standards in medicine in terms of how we
(06:24):
treat other people.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
One of the I think obvious objections to that particular
situation would would come from people of certain religions.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Right, so I'm not very.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Religious, but I'm Jewish, and under Judaism, if you were
a religious Jew, you would not. You can't donate your
body to science. You can't get you can't be cremated.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And that's why you can't donate the science, partly because
that process culminates in cremation. So in fact, I think
under ideal circumstances, the county would bury people as a default.
My own county, so I helped them write some new legislation,
but they it's it's cremation as a default, unless they
knew you were you were religious, because burials so much
(07:12):
more expensive I wish it were burial as a default
because there are just more religious groups that object to cremation.
If you're thinking about what somebody would have wanted.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Does the county I guess there's lots of counties, but
the county you wrote about, particularly in your article in Texas?
Do they attempt to ask this question of next to
ken when they're asking, you know, do you want the body? No,
I can't afford it. Okay, do you mind if we
do such and such with it?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Do they ask?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I'm so so I found differences here. So we have
Dallas County and Tarrant County in the metroplex down here.
Tarrant County if there were next of kin that were
located and said they objected to the donation of the body,
Arrant County would pay for cremation. Dallas County, from what
I can tell, didn't care if the next five can
we're okay with it or not? No legal requirement for
(08:04):
next of can to give permission. Yeah, so you're in Colorado.
By the way, this is fully legal in Colorado as well.
Maybe it happens in Colorado. I haven't done research in Colorado,
so I don't know. But you know, if somebody dies
and their body goes and claim unclaimed in Colorado, perfectly
legal for the county to donate that body to a
(08:24):
mortuary school or a medical school.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
But the counties can't sell the body. They can only give.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It I think, so I would have to look at
the legislation, right, But who they give it to can
sell the body, can lease it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, that's an interesting part. That's a really interesting part
that you know you can sell and lease the body.
If there's what I'm trying to understand now is what's
the what's.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
The reasoning behind it? If there isn't a shortage, like.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Is money saving money for the county because burying and
cremating unclaimed bodies costs a lot of money. One of
one of our Texas counties say they say, they say,
have a million dollars a year by doing this.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Ah, that makes sense. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So if there's if there's two bodies.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Medical school pays for everything. If they take the body,
they pay for the cremation. It's basically they they take
the problem out of the county's hand.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Now I get it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
If if if there are two bodies available at the
same time, and one is somebody who agreed to donate
their body to science, and one is, you know, an
unclaimed body of an impoverished person. And then suddenly there's
a demand from a medical school for one body. Uh,
it saves the county the cost of dealing with the
unclaimed body to give that one and let the family
(09:40):
claim the body of the other one.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
To go ball.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
They would let the family claim the body of the
other one no matter what, probably if they wanted to.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But but.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You know, some medical schools won't accept unclaimed bodies for
basically sort of persuaded by the kind of argument yeah
I was having previously, you know some will.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So you you seem to think this is a real problem,
and I might be convinced that you're right.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I'm still thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I don't think it's the biggest social problem, but I
do think it's important, and I think it's a real problem.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting. It's not something I've ever
thought about. So what do you propose? What have you
considered as a solution or possible solutions.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
So one issue is that this is legal in most places.
Only a small handful of states have prohibited this. New York, Hawaii, have,
but and I think that's an issue. I don't think
it should be legal for somebody to be dissected without
their consent or the permission of the people who knew
them best and know it's what they would have wanted.
(10:48):
So I think there should be legislative change that happens.
I think states should prohibit this, and while we're waiting
for that to happen, counties can make it county policy
not to do this. I think medical schools should stop
accepting unclaimed bodies. I'm not a political philosopher. I don't
really have strong views about what a county owes its
(11:09):
residents in terms of varial So you know, I don't
know if it's morally permissible for the counties to offer
these bodies. I don't really think so. I know, though,
that it's not morally permissible for medical schools to accept
these bodies because it just falls short of the standards
of professional ethics in that domain. So I think, you know,
that needs to stop. Counties who do donate their unlade
(11:30):
claim bodies are just going to have to make room
in their budgets for cremation and burial of the unclaimed.
And you know, in some ways, I'm advocating a return
to tradition.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
The potter's field or the pauper's grave is, you know,
sort of what people think of as what happens when
bodies go unclaimed, And I think that's what should happen, right,
I think, you know, that reflects kind of the social
moras that we have as a societ when we think
about the dead and respect for the dead.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, you know, I think I think I'm I think
I'm leaning in your direction for the primary reason of
your data point that there is not a shortage of bodies, Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
I think that's critical. Some medical schools have argued that
this is a good thing, though, because the majority of
people who donate bodies are white, and a disproportionate number
of unclaimed bodies are non white, And they say it's
great that our medical students can train on bodies that
are more representative of the kinds of patients they'll be
treating in their communities. But I don't think this is
(12:34):
a good way to achieved goals. And I think, you know,
if that's a motivation, you can increase donor recruitment, you
can reach out to communities. Yeah, people don't know they
can donate their bodies to science all the time. A
lot of people, you know, respond to my work and
they say, who cares, I'm meat after I'm dead. I
don't care, And I just ask them, Oh, do you
have a WILL body program card in your wallet? Are
(12:57):
you a donor then? Because if you're not, you know,
it doesn't take a long time. Just contact your local
medical school and say you'd like to donate.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, it's a really really fascinating Yeah. And yeah, DEI
with dead bodies is definitely a little bit of an
odd thing.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
There's the grave robber, the Wolke grave robbery. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
The only the only way there would be a legitimate
argument there would be if there were physiological differences among
human beings based on their race, which of course would
open an entire different political and philosophical conversation. But fortunately
there isn't any evidence of that in any important way.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, if you want, if you want, you know, a
certain demographic group in this in this pool, you know,
you have to do it with them. You can't just
can't just take their bodies asking them community.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, we want to we want to go, we want
to go use all the unclaimed bodies, but only the
black guys.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Oh my god, that it's just not a good look. No,
it's not a good look. It's from uh. Doctor. Eli
Shop is.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
An assistant professor of philosophy and the co director of
the Medical Humanities and Bioethics Program at the University of
Texas at Arlington. Her piece for The Washington Post, how
human bodies end up on dissection tables without consent.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Really interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Not something I ever thought about before, and I love
that kind of stuff, And it falls directly into the
category of with philosophy, you'll remember just enough to screw
you up for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Thanks joining you, Thanks so much for being here. Really
really fun conversation and interesting
I understand some folks are gonna say, Roster, are you
really talking about this on a day where there's a
there's a plane crash?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Yes, I am uh And I wanted to have this
conversation for several days and we're doing it today. I
am very pleased to be joined by doctor Eli Shoop.
She's a a professor assistant professor at the University of
Texas at Arlington in the Philosophy and Humanity's department. She's
got a master's in philosophy, she's got a PhD in philosophy.
(00:29):
And before we before we talk about your your really
interesting piece, Eliab. Have you ever heard the comedian Steve
Martin talking about philosophy?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I have not.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
What does he say?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So? He said, yeah, it's thanks for thanks for being here.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
She He says, Well, if you're studying geology, it's all
facts and numbers, and unless you're doing it for a job,
you forget it as soon as you're done studying it.
But with philosophy, you remember just enough to screw you
up for the rest of your life.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
That is very true. And the more you know that
you don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I probably my favorite class that I ever took in
my entire life was introduction to philosophy that I took
in high school with a German professor named doctor Otto Mauer,
who let me take the class even though I was
only a sophomore and it was normally a junior and
senior class.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And just the whole concept that.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You can study how to think about thinking, which was
something I had never thought about as a sixteen year old.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I just loved it, and I still do.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So I'm a little jealous you get to make a
living doing philosophy.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I feel lucky every day.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
You wrote a really interesting piece, and apparently looking at
your other work, it's a topic you've cared about for
quite some time. The headline this is in the Washington
Post in the opinion section in the op eds is
how human bodies end up on section tables without consent?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And the subhead the remains of poor people in.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Texas were dissected for medical research.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
They deserve better.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So there's so many aspects of this to talk about,
But why don't we just talk about the most obvious question, Like,
normally you think somebody dies, there's a body, the family
comes and take it or takes it. What why are
their bodies lying around for whatever reason.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
A lot of people's bodies go unclaimed, you know, every
day in America, either they have they simply have no
next of kin or you know, loved ones who would
see the final arrangements, or those next of kin can't
be reached or found, or maybe they're there. But to
claim a body isn't just you know, pulling up with
a pickup truck. You need to have arrangements in place
(02:47):
for cremation or burial. You need to have that body
transferred to a funeral home from the Medical Examiner's office.
And some people simply can't afford that the average cost
of cremation is about one thousand dollars in the country.
So sometimes it's estrangement, lack of next of kins, sometimes
it's financial. So, but these bodies go unclaimed. And this
you know, there have always been unclaimed bodies in America.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Okay, So specifically with these unclaimed bodies, where were they, like,
which governmental agency or which state or which county or
which city?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Where where were the bodies.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And then who claimed who claimed them for a particular purpose.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Yeah, so this actually isn't specific to Texas. This is
something that is legal in most of the United States.
But basically, in most of the country, if no one
claims your body, the county is going to be the
level of government that deals with it, right, They're going
to have to see to the final arrangements. In most states,
it is actually legal for the county to donate those
(03:47):
bodies for the advancement of medical science to a mortuary
school or a medical school. And there's no legal requirement
in most of these states for any permission to begin
from next of kin or any prior consent to have
been received from the deceased right, And it's something that
not a lot of people know about. Basically, it's this
(04:10):
little loophole where if you die poor you don't leave
enough money behind to cover the cost of burial or cremation,
you might end up dissected, you know, without even having
been able to anticipate that could happen.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Okay, I'll play Devil's advocate for a second, just to
just to set up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Why is that a problem? Great question?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
So I am going to agree with the Devil's advocate
on a lot of points. I think that doctors need
bodies on which to train their art. I am actually
a registered body donor myself, I have a card. If
there were a huge shortage of human remains that could
(04:52):
be used for training, you know, maybe that might partly
justify it. But it's act of the matter is there's
no shortage. Most of the bodies used in medical schools
are willed body donors, So so for one, we're not
hurting for bodies. In fact, some of the medical schools
that accept unclaimed bodies make money off of them by
leasing them out, you know, to medical device corporations things
(05:16):
like that is sort of profit taking. But more importantly,
I think it just matters that people have given permission
or that their family members have because if we start
treating you know, human remains like they don't matter, we
might start treating humans like they don't matter in medicine,
and medicine has a long history of treating people in
(05:38):
problematic ways, right, Like in the past, we didn't really
care about consent in medicine quite as much. You know,
African Americans were experimented on without their knowledge. Okay, so
like we want to move away from that sort of
you know, way way of treating people, in a way
of thinking about people. But also like another reason why
it matters is because people think it matter utters. So
(06:01):
a lot of people are really upset when they find
out their loved ones have been used like this, and
it's going to make people less likely to donate their
bodies to science. It might even make them less likely
to trust healthcare professionals. So I think it might seriously
harm public trust, and it falls short of sort of
the professional standards in medicine in terms of how we
(06:24):
treat other people.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
One of the I think obvious objections to that particular
situation would would come from people of certain religions.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Right, so I'm not very.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Religious, but I'm Jewish, and under Judaism, if you were
a religious Jew, you would not. You can't donate your
body to science. You can't get you can't be cremated.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
And that's why you can't donate the science, partly because
that process culminates in cremation. So in fact, I think
under ideal circumstances, the county would bury people as a default.
My own county, so I helped them write some new legislation,
but they it's it's cremation as a default, unless they
knew you were you were religious, because burials so much
(07:12):
more expensive I wish it were burial as a default
because there are just more religious groups that object to cremation.
If you're thinking about what somebody would have wanted.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Does the county I guess there's lots of counties, but
the county you wrote about, particularly in your article in Texas?
Do they attempt to ask this question of next to
ken when they're asking, you know, do you want the body? No,
I can't afford it. Okay, do you mind if we
do such and such with it?
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Do they ask?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
I'm so so I found differences here. So we have
Dallas County and Tarrant County in the metroplex down here.
Tarrant County if there were next of kin that were
located and said they objected to the donation of the body,
Arrant County would pay for cremation. Dallas County, from what
I can tell, didn't care if the next five can
we're okay with it or not? No legal requirement for
(08:04):
next of can to give permission. Yeah, so you're in Colorado.
By the way, this is fully legal in Colorado as well.
Maybe it happens in Colorado. I haven't done research in Colorado,
so I don't know. But you know, if somebody dies
and their body goes and claim unclaimed in Colorado, perfectly
legal for the county to donate that body to a
(08:24):
mortuary school or a medical school.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
But the counties can't sell the body. They can only give.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It I think, so I would have to look at
the legislation, right, But who they give it to can
sell the body, can lease it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, that's an interesting part. That's a really interesting part
that you know you can sell and lease the body.
If there's what I'm trying to understand now is what's
the what's.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
The reasoning behind it? If there isn't a shortage, like.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Is money saving money for the county because burying and
cremating unclaimed bodies costs a lot of money. One of
one of our Texas counties say they say, they say,
have a million dollars a year by doing this.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Ah, that makes sense. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So if there's if there's two bodies.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Medical school pays for everything. If they take the body,
they pay for the cremation. It's basically they they take
the problem out of the county's hand.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Now I get it.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
If if if there are two bodies available at the
same time, and one is somebody who agreed to donate
their body to science, and one is, you know, an
unclaimed body of an impoverished person. And then suddenly there's
a demand from a medical school for one body. Uh,
it saves the county the cost of dealing with the
unclaimed body to give that one and let the family
(09:40):
claim the body of the other one.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
To go ball.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
They would let the family claim the body of the
other one no matter what, probably if they wanted to.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But but.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
You know, some medical schools won't accept unclaimed bodies for
basically sort of persuaded by the kind of argument yeah
I was having previously, you know some will.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So you you seem to think this is a real problem,
and I might be convinced that you're right.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I'm still thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I don't think it's the biggest social problem, but I
do think it's important, and I think it's a real problem.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting. It's not something I've ever
thought about. So what do you propose? What have you
considered as a solution or possible solutions.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
So one issue is that this is legal in most places.
Only a small handful of states have prohibited this. New York, Hawaii, have,
but and I think that's an issue. I don't think
it should be legal for somebody to be dissected without
their consent or the permission of the people who knew
them best and know it's what they would have wanted.
(10:48):
So I think there should be legislative change that happens.
I think states should prohibit this, and while we're waiting
for that to happen, counties can make it county policy
not to do this. I think medical schools should stop
accepting unclaimed bodies. I'm not a political philosopher. I don't
really have strong views about what a county owes its
(11:09):
residents in terms of varial So you know, I don't
know if it's morally permissible for the counties to offer
these bodies. I don't really think so. I know, though,
that it's not morally permissible for medical schools to accept
these bodies because it just falls short of the standards
of professional ethics in that domain. So I think, you know,
that needs to stop. Counties who do donate their unlade
(11:30):
claim bodies are just going to have to make room
in their budgets for cremation and burial of the unclaimed.
And you know, in some ways, I'm advocating a return
to tradition.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
The potter's field or the pauper's grave is, you know,
sort of what people think of as what happens when
bodies go unclaimed, And I think that's what should happen, right,
I think, you know, that reflects kind of the social
moras that we have as a societ when we think
about the dead and respect for the dead.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah, you know, I think I think I'm I think
I'm leaning in your direction for the primary reason of
your data point that there is not a shortage of bodies, Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
I think that's critical. Some medical schools have argued that
this is a good thing, though, because the majority of
people who donate bodies are white, and a disproportionate number
of unclaimed bodies are non white, And they say it's
great that our medical students can train on bodies that
are more representative of the kinds of patients they'll be
treating in their communities. But I don't think this is
(12:34):
a good way to achieved goals. And I think, you know,
if that's a motivation, you can increase donor recruitment, you
can reach out to communities. Yeah, people don't know they
can donate their bodies to science all the time. A
lot of people, you know, respond to my work and
they say, who cares, I'm meat after I'm dead. I
don't care, And I just ask them, Oh, do you
have a WILL body program card in your wallet? Are
(12:57):
you a donor then? Because if you're not, you know,
it doesn't take a long time. Just contact your local
medical school and say you'd like to donate.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, it's a really really fascinating Yeah. And yeah, DEI
with dead bodies is definitely a little bit of an
odd thing.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
There's the grave robber, the Wolke grave robbery. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
The only the only way there would be a legitimate
argument there would be if there were physiological differences among
human beings based on their race, which of course would
open an entire different political and philosophical conversation. But fortunately
there isn't any evidence of that in any important way.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, if you want, if you want, you know, a
certain demographic group in this in this pool, you know,
you have to do it with them. You can't just
can't just take their bodies asking them community.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, we want to we want to go, we want
to go use all the unclaimed bodies, but only the
black guys.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Oh my god, that it's just not a good look. No,
it's not a good look. It's from uh. Doctor. Eli
Shop is.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
An assistant professor of philosophy and the co director of
the Medical Humanities and Bioethics Program at the University of
Texas at Arlington. Her piece for The Washington Post, how
human bodies end up on dissection tables without consent.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Really interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Not something I ever thought about before, and I love
that kind of stuff, And it falls directly into the
category of with philosophy, you'll remember just enough to screw
you up for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Thanks joining you, Thanks so much for being here. Really
really fun conversation and interesting
The Ross Kaminsky Show News
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