8-23-24 *INTERVIEW* The World of Dating with Culture Writer for The Atlantic Faith Hill

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, I'm very very pleased to welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
The other Faith Hill.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
She writes for The Atlantic, and she wrote a fascinating
piece just a week or so ago. I don't have
the date in front of me week and a half ago,
entitled the People who Quit Dating, And I will just
note for listeners, you know, other than date night with
my wife, I haven't been on a date date in
twenty something years, and frankly I don't really miss it.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
But I'm always.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Fascinated by understanding the changes in how lots and lots
of people do things that everybody does, how people date,
how is that changing? How people shop? How was that changing?
And I hadn't really thought about this but quitting dating. So,
first of all, Faith, thanks for making time for us,
and welcome to Kowa. Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
Thanks so much for having me so as a.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Person who's not in the dating world.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
And just sort of commenting from the cheap seats. I've
been saying for a little bit of time on the
show that my gut instinct, and this might might just
be because I'm old, is that people long for a
direct human connection. And I'm not talking about the dating
yet as much as just talking to someone face to face,

(01:11):
looking someone in the eye, having a conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
And I thought that all this online.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Dating stuff swipe here and swipe there, which I've never
not done, is not durable, like wouldn't last in the
long run. I don't know whether that's what I think
or what I hope though, And so as we talk
about why people quit dating and the people who are
quitting dating, is that a factor in it?

Speaker 3 (01:38):
It definitely is. Yeah. I think online dating has really
changed the game, as you're saying, and I think it
has its benefits for sure, but it's a lot of labor.
Like you know, people really they have to sort of
put this work into it that is separate from their life.
So you know, people used to find partners more often
like at work or through their ends, and there wasn't

(02:01):
such a like clear divide between dating and the rest
of your life. But now there is sort of this
separate pocket of your life if you want a partner
and you don't have one, where you have to like
put in all this time. And it does it takes
away focus from a lot of other things.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
And I guess if it's taking away focus from a
lot of.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Other things, then what you're implicitly saying, is it also
comes down to what people prioritize, right, because you could
decide prioritize, you know, trying to find a partner, trying
to find a date, gosh, trying to find a one
night's stand. I don't care. Whatever people want to do
in their own lives is up to them. But I
find it I don't know. To me, this story is

(02:44):
a sad story, and I don't not tell stories because
they're sad. But did you react to your own homework about,
you know, learning about people giving up on dating with
a sense of sadness?

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, I think it's there's definitely sadness here. I think
for me, it's a mix because I think sometimes like
we have a hard time having the sort of complex
narrative in our society about singlehood, Like we used to
kind of look at it as a source of shame,
and now we've sort of almost overcorrected sometimes, I think

(03:20):
where we have to talk about single people as like
you know, like you go girl boss, like living our
best life. And I wanted to sort of tell the
story that was like emotionally in the middle of those
that was like there are some people who really want
to partner and haven't been able to find one and
are really sad about it, and like should be able

(03:42):
to talk about that. And at the same time, those
people can have full lives in other ways and you know,
have dignity and other sources of meaning.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
So I mean, it's not always fun, and it might
sound not nice to talk about, but in the real world,
some people are just a little bit less appealing to others, right,
And so I want to kind of make sure what
we're talking about here when you say there are people
who kind of would would like to have a partner
who don't that you know, are we talking about people

(04:14):
that when you meet them you think, gush, there's every
reason in the world that this person man or woman
should be able to find someone to date, you know,
versus some obese loser who doesn't shower, who probably even
thirty years ago wouldn't find someone to.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Date, Right.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
I mean, I think that that is sort of like
almost an underrated reality that a lot of people don't
don't realize. Is like, there are a lot of people
who are just totally normal, great people have lots of friends,
like are not sort of these isolated weirdos who for
whatever reason, have had a lot of trouble dating, and
you know, I think it sometimes it has to do

(04:55):
with things like they're like looking for something specific and
it's a certain pickiness or you know, something like that.
But I also think like we don't talk enough about
how there's just luck involved too, and some people have
gotten really lucky and they've found people that are right
for them, and other people just haven't had that yet.
And I mean one researcher that I talked to also

(05:17):
was you know, she said it very bluntly, and I
don't know how I feel about this, but she was like,
there may not be someone out there for everyone, like
some people just aren't romantically connecting yet. I think the
apps also make it harder in some ways. And and
so I just think there's like this yeah dating world
where people feel like it's their fault if they're still single.

(05:40):
Like all the resources out there are sort of how
to date better, you know, like what you're doing wrong,
And I don't think there's like a lot out there
that's like telling single people that, you know, they can
choose to focus on other things if it's not working out.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
That is an option we're talking with Faith Hill a
really interesting piece over at the Atlantic dot com is
called The People who Quit Dating. I will note faith
that I met my wife just an absolute accident. I
saw some ceramics when I was on vacation in Australia.
I saw some ceramics that I really liked, and I
said I'd like to get some more of these, and

(06:15):
they said, well, you need to go talk to the artist.
And now she's my wife. So it was just it
was just complete, complete randomness. Let's talk about the apps
for a second, versus you know, old styles of dating.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
You know, when when I was in the dating.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
World, you'd go to a bar, or you'd go to
the gym, or you'd go to some event, and if
you were looking for someone to date, you keep your
eyes open and look for somebody who seemed who seemed
potentially interesting. I think, especially initially, I think guys are
a lot more visually driven and women are probably a
lot less superficial, even from the very beginning.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
But whatever, men and women are different.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
But when you're doing that in person stuff, there's some
relatively equal kind.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Of balance of power sort of.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
I have told again haven't experienced this myself. I've been
told that on the apps, the experience of men versus
the experience of women.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Is exceptionally different. Is that what you've found.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
I think that there are probably you know, I think
that that is real in a lot of ways. I think,
you know, I've heard a lot of women sort of
say that like part of their problem or they you know,
the part of the reason that they have decided to
quit dating is like they just sort of think there's
this hopeless gender imbalance where you know, like the men

(07:38):
have all the power and kind of always feel like
they can find something better. I will say, like, I
also heard from men who felt the same, and you know,
of course that's only talking about street relationships and so not.
You know, those aren't the only ones. But I do think, like,
I think there's both realities. Like I think is dating

(08:00):
apps are hard for women in a lot of ways,
and I also think dating is hard for everyone, and
it's easy to sort of feel like that is the
one thing. I think in reality, there's probably a lot
of factors going on, and for a lot of people,
like there is just this this sort of like overwhelming
deluge of options on the apps, and a lot of

(08:24):
them won't work out, and it's sort of like it's
very hard to find the needle in the haystack.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
I do wonder, like on the apps, how many of
the guys in their profiles are six five with a
great job, and how many women are the female equivalent
of that, and whether people feel like they can trust
what they find online. I think, I mean, when you're

(08:50):
meeting someone in person, they might tell you something that's
not true. But I think when you're standing there talking
to someone and you can see what.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
They look like and you can hear his or her voice.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
I think the level of I think there's orders of
magnitude difference in levels of trust that I suspect is
a factor.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, I think that's right. And I also think, like
when you're meeting soon and in person, those kinds of
factors might not matter as much. Like maybe you know
you're talking to a guy who's shorter than average, but
like you're getting to know him as a person and
not immediately thinking like is this a romantic prospect and
feeling like you need to decide, and then there's a

(09:28):
little bit more time for something to grow. So I
do think there's a way in which, like dating apps
doesn't let things develop naturally and you're sort of very
quickly faced with a decision point and you know, made
to make a judgment about someone. And I think a
lot of the people I talked to for the story
found that very dispiriting, Like they just didn't like the

(09:51):
superficiality of the apps. They you know, wanted to sort
of get to know people's people, but they felt like
it's just becoming harder and harder because dating apps are
so dominant in the in the dating world, like that
makes it harder than to meet people in other ways
because people aren't as likely to chat up people at
parties that they don't know or you know. It's I

(10:14):
think this is in some ways positive, but it's like
less of enormous to meet people at work. So it's
just it's a different world and that that's hard.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Okay, So I've got to follow up on that, and
then I've got a couple of listener questions. Uh So,
I noticed.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Among kids, including my kids, especially one of my kids,
that they're not nearly as good at just having a.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Face to face conversation with somebody.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
They are so used to texting and snapchat and writing.
I R L and b RB and l O L
and and they.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Barely know how to answer the phone.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
I heard I heard a comedian say once that a
telephone now.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Is just a rarely used app on somebody's phone.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
And and I wonder, now, these people are too young
to really be in the dating scene.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
But I wonder if the.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Younger part of the people who are in the dating scene,
I wonder how many of them are struggling because of
not having enough practice growing off in having real conversations
with people.

Speaker 3 (11:19):
I think that, yes, I think we're in a sort
of tough era of dating where like, you know, we're
far enough away from the point where dating apps weren't
a norm to like we're you know, I think people
have sort of lost some of those skills to talk
to strangers and right to not be sort of like

(11:39):
having technology mediate their interactions and have the sort of
added layer of security where like you don't start talking
to someone until they confirm some interest in you. But
at the same time, like we are, you know, close
enough to sort of the part of history where dating
apps were not a thing, where like people still really
have a craving for that, whether they experience themselves or

(12:00):
whether they've just heard about it from older people or
from movies. I think like there's a lot of nostalgia
for that reason that you know, people are people want
that human interaction. Yeah, they also, though, I think, are
not sure how to get it all right.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
A couple of listener questions for you. A few people
asked a version of the same question, do you think
that today's very tribal political environment is making dating harder?
And a couple listeners have also noted that, at least
just based on top level polling data, more men tend

(12:38):
to lean right and more women tend to lean left.
And this isn't a partisan statement of any kind, just
this is what the data show. So do you think
that that is making dating harder?

Speaker 3 (12:51):
I do? I mean, I think I think it's like
it's probably for you know, plenty of people, not something
that is making it hard, but for a lot of
people it is. And I think dating apps has to
do with that too, Like it's that kind of thing
where you're not initially getting to know someone as a
person before you decide whether they could be a romantic

(13:12):
prospect for you. Like on an app you could filter
out someone with like a different political affiliation. You you know,
you see it and you make a judgment about that,
and then they become like an option or not an option.
And I think when it was more common to me,
people just like in life, like, we didn't all fall
under the labels so.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Much, like mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
You know that wasn't the first thing that you got
to know about someone.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Right, Yeah, that's an interesting point.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
I lived in Amsterdam for a while, and you know,
just in terms of the first thing you get to
know about someone, what I learned very early on, and
this didn't have anything to do with dating, although I
did end up with a Dutch girlfriend for a while,
but just socializing with people. If if fairly early on
in getting to know somebody you ask them what they

(14:00):
did for a living, that was considered really rude because
it's so one important about anything fundamental about the person.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
And I thought that was really interesting. We have a
few minutes left.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Multiple listeners are also asking what your homework shows you,
What your research for your article showed you about dating
among older folks, senior citizen dating.

Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, I mean I think I've actually written about that
sort of like, you know, how dating is changing for
older adults, and I think it's an interesting time. I mean,
I think like apps have been very hard for a
lot of older adults to sort of get a handle on,
and it can be hard to feel like that is

(14:46):
like the way that people date now. And at the
same time, I think there's a lot of like beautiful
things about dating when you're in older age, like because
you have already developed your life and you're not sort
of like waiting on a partner for you know, to
know whether to have kids or buy a house or
sort of like how you should plan your life. Like

(15:07):
I think that you can sort of hold out for
someone who is really good for you because you're a
little bit less like dependent. Like I think one thing
that was that came up that was very painful for
people I talked to for this story was like when
you are a little bit younger, you are really like
you just feel like you're stuck until you find that

(15:28):
and it's this thing that you're supposed to have and
you don't know whether to grieve that part of your
life that you expected. And I think there's some freedom
for people who are a little older that like they
might have come to terms with that, or maybe they've
experienced it and it didn't work. Out and you know
they've like really probably already focused on some of these
other parts of their life. Oh and and with that

(15:52):
rich life, then you sort of have more freedom to
date in the in the way you want to date
without feeling so desperate.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
All right, we have we have literally two minutes left,
so I need quickly There's to two questions in your
article you talk about and I think you just touched
on it something called ambiguous loss. Can you just quickly
tell us what that is and why it's important here? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (16:12):
So, I mean it's a psychological concept that was developed
by a researcher named Pauline Boss, And essentially the idea
is that when you don't know whether your loss is
sort of going to continue or whether it will end,
it's impossible to get closure. So she talked about this

(16:34):
with like families waiting for prisoners of war to come home.
But you know, of course it's so different with singlehood.
But there's a similar kind of unresolved nature where if
you don't know whether you will have a partner in
the future, you don't know whether to grieve that loss
or whether to keep hoping, and you just feel kind
of stuck, all right.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
Last question for you faith.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
So we've talked about, you know, people giving up on dating,
and we've talked about all the potential troubles in dating,
But why don't we end on something a little bit
hopeful or optimistic. What are you seeing in your research
that makes you feel like the situation for people who
want to date and want to find somebody might be
getting better.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Well, I would say, like, one thing that's hopeful is
not just you know, hopeful and the context of dating,
but hopeful and the context of people's whole lives is that, like,
even if it's not working out to find a partner,
I think that it is sort of you know, kind
of hopefully becoming more accepted to live life without a partner.
And even if that's something you want it, I think

(17:36):
people can live really beautiful, profound lives without it. And
it's a good reminder that a lot of a lot
of us don't end up with our perfect life. We
can't have control over everything, but there are still ways
to kind of shape your life given your circumstances, to
end up somewhere that is meaningful for you.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
I would add to a that I hope that just
because someone can live.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
A great life without a partner.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I hope that the dating world as it evolves makes
it easier for them to find a partner if.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
They want to.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
And we'll see, because technology is actually, in a way
made it more difficult. It's made it easier in some
ways and more difficult in other ways, and everybody's going
to have to figure it out. It seems like there's
been enough time to figure it out, but clearly there hasn't.
FACE really interesting piece over at the Atlantic dot Com
is called The People who Quit Dating. The subhead as

(18:38):
being single can be hard, but the search for love
may be harder. Faith Hell, thanks so much for your
time and the interesting conversation.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Good to see you