Jen Hatmaker: Starting Over, Being Outside Of Your Comfort Zone, Empty Nesting & Gratitude

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Okay, little food for you. So life, Oh it's pretty,
It's pretty beautiful than beautiful. That for a little moth

(00:29):
kicking four Happy Thursday, four Things, Bam. I sat down
with Jin Hatmaker the other day and I'm so excited
for you all to hear this chat. She has definitely
been through a lot the past two years. But the
cool part is is she's on the other side of
it now, so she is a guide to us, and
I think it's super cool. If you know anything about

(00:50):
her story, I guess if you don't, then I'll just
tell you right now. In she was hit with a
big surprise and found herself suddenly getting a divorce after
twenty seven years of me marriage. And sometimes life does
a one eighty on us and we don't really know
what to do, and it can get really difficult and challenging.
But Jen is here to offer us encouragement. And maybe

(01:11):
your whole life starting over situation isn't because of a divorce.
It might be a job that you're you're having to
start over somewhere, a new career. You never thought that
was gonna be happening to especially at you know, forty
fifty years old, or you have a different life circumstance
that is causing you to start over. Whatever the reason is,
Jen's story is going to offer you hope. She talks

(01:33):
through the suffering and the loss and how she was
able to heal and how she was able to rebuild.
So I'm very thankful for this chat. We also talk
about being outside of your comfort zone, because yes, she's
an author, but she just wrote a cookbook for the
first time, which I think is super cool. We also
talk about empty nesting, so from having a house full
of people all the time to suddenly being alone, and

(01:55):
that that is an interesting place to be. We also
talk about grat It's you four Things gratitude, and she
gives us you know, cold TV show book, a drink,
and an Instagram follow So some good recommendations from Jen.
But before I share with you the chat, I want
to just update you on two things. One thing is
that Haiti isn't a real bad place right now. It

(02:16):
has been for quite some time, but I just got
a devastating email from the Orphanage that they've had to
close down the bakery, which I know a lot of
you were a part of helping build that. If you
bought a blue Pimp and joy shirt back in the day.
All the money went towards building that bakery, and that
bakery being there is super important because it provides funds
for the Orphanage. It was a way for them to
be more self sustainable, and then also it provides jobs

(02:39):
for people in the community there. And because of high
prices of things, they've had to shut the bakery for
a little bit. It's not permanent. I know it is
temporary and it will open back up, but if y'all
could be praying for the Orphanage and the safety of
them where they are as a real volatile area right now.
So far, they've been good and behind gates, but it's

(03:01):
just an uneasy feeling for so many of them right now.
And they are such precious, precious people, and this bakery
is such an amazing thing for them, and I hate
that they've had to shut the doors. To just be
praying for that whole process and just the whole country
in general. And then also just know that there are
some items up that go directly towards supporting different organizations

(03:23):
that we work with in Haiti, because all of Haiti
is struggling right now, and there's four Things items, there's
fall items, there's Halloween stuff that's super cute. There's even
non false stuff you could customize the four Things tote
you could get and I'm fine, it's fine. Everything is fine.
I've been living in the new faded maroon corded pull

(03:44):
over that's so cozy and perfect for fall. But again,
you don't even have to get an item. I'm just
throwing this out there as an option if you want
to shop and find a way to support four things
dot com or to see all the fall items at
the shot Forward has the shot forward dot com slab
Fall and then second thing would be my live podcast
event is coming up soon. I can't even believe it.

(04:07):
And I am just giddy over those of you that
are coming from other parts of the country. We first
set it up in which Ita I just thought, well,
it's probably just going to be mostly people from Kansas
because that's just the first place we're going to do it.
And then there's people coming from different parts of the country,
which is blowing my mind. And I'm super grateful for that.
And if you aren't familiar with what we're going to
be doing, it's just it's a girl's night we're gonna

(04:29):
be keeping it real. It'll be like a podcast episode
sort of like what you're about to hear with me
and Jin talking through four different things. I'll be going
through four different things on stage, and different people will
be popping on with me. My sister is going to
join me for a thing. Cat Defato will be there,
who's my co host for the fifth thing, and she's
a licensed therapist, so she's the expert that's on hand

(04:50):
to maybe walk us through some things, especially if there's
a listener Q and A. We're gonna do an audience
Q and A session, and I feel better having an
expert on hand because I don't know what kind of
question jo'ell are going to be throwing our way. But
we're gonna be talking through some things in life like
are you really living? Are you stuck somewhere? Do you

(05:10):
need to make a move? What's the next right step
for you to do that? And then how are you
going to show up in the world. And we've got
some giveaways that we're going to be doing, and then
fun messages from country artists that you know and love,
words of wisdom for them and some encouragement. So super special,
fun night ahead. We've been working on the video components
of it and how everything's gonna lay out. Had a

(05:31):
big meeting about it yesterday and I'm just excited about it.
So it was gonna remind you all about that if
you can make it. Saturday, November five, select a seat
dot com slash Amy. Now, with all that said, here
is my conversation with Jen Hatmaker when it comes to

(05:52):
the first thing, the starting over topic. I have one
of my favorite posts that you put up that I
would like too. If you're okay with it, read your
words back to you. If that's not too awkward, sure,
all right, So y'all can scroll back if you go
to at gin hat Maker and you can check out
this entire post. It is from July. Then you did

(06:15):
you know a side by side photo one of yourself
two years ago and one of you this summer, And
then I'm just going to read your caption. I took
this picture on the left and wrote this post almost
exactly two years ago on August six, one day before
my birthday. No one knew I was getting divorced yet,
only that something had gone terribly wrong. And I've been
off socials and we were in a catastrophic crisis. I

(06:38):
can hardly look at this picture of me. I was so, so,
so sad. I have never been that sad before or since.
My face holds all the sorrow and shock and loss
and grief I never wanted. I was at the bottom
of the ocean. The pick on the right was today
standing under the same contree in my backyard. Everything I

(06:58):
wrote turned out to be true. All those things held,
They delivered me back to me that smiling, delighted, healthy, healed,
whole person right there on the right. Whatever we've built
into our lives is what shows up when everything collapses.
Not one good deposit is wasted. Not any of the hope,
the love, the relationships, the faith, the honor. Those keep

(07:21):
they accure, they metastasize. Hang on to all the good
things you have the audacity to still fight for, still
believe in, keep building, keep choosing what is good and
right and true and lovely. Those will be there for you, beloved,
without even meaning to, you will have built a gorgeous, strong,
sturdy house that will shelter you during whatever raging storm comes,

(07:44):
And when it recedes, you may stand under the very
same tree two years later, smile from the depths of
your little minded heart and mean it keep going. Darling's
that post meant a lot to me and I'm sure
hundreds of thousands of other But when it comes to
starting over, I mean that that post is a lot

(08:06):
that has to do with that. And two years ago
you had to start over, and then here you are
on the other side. So what is it that you
have to say to people that might be in the
midst of something, or like you even said to some
people may be listening to this podcast and then they
might remember it six months from now when something happens
and they're like, oh, I need to go back and

(08:27):
listen to that. Right, I mean, some of us start
over because we choose to. We hit a fork in
the road, we make a decision, we make a choice,
and that is going to be a huge reboot, and
some of us start over against our will, right Like,
we didn't want that, we didn't ask for that, we

(08:48):
didn't choose that, we ended up losing something, or it
failed or it collapsed in some way that we didn't expect,
and then we still how have to figure out how
to move on, whether or not we wanted to be
there or not. That was the case for me, that
wasn't a start over that I wanted the loss of

(09:08):
my marriage. And I think I've learned a lot in
the last two years. The first is this when I'm
like thinking about your listeners, I'm forty eight and so
kind of right here in the middle ish. And one
thing that I have definitely learned is that this level
of kind of pain and suffering an unexpected change at

(09:32):
kind of this stage of life is really common. I
felt really lonely for a million reasons. Divorces the loneliest thing.
It is the saddest, most awful thing that um, you
kind of alone carry morning tonight. Um. Other people, of
course carry huge portions and with you the whole time.
And that was true for me, and you know your

(09:53):
extended family does too, but it's yours. It's really really lonely.
But at the same time, and you know, Amy, I
spent a great deal of time fifteen years probably in
leadership for which marriage and family was a cornerstone of
what I taught about and thought about and talked about.
And so I had this sense of failure that was

(10:16):
so profound, and like, how is this going to go?
And what am I a fraud? Now like I had
no idea what the future is going to look like.
But what I discovered is that you're just definitely not
alone in starting over. It's just so common. My reason
was this, but other people have a million reasons. But
the process is similar, the process of sometimes like shock

(10:39):
and loss and then like this huge question mark, what
the hell am I going to do? I have no
idea what this future looks like because I planned this one,
and so my community ended up being an immense support.
And so I'm thinking about people who are starting over,
and there's something comforting actually knowing that you're not by yourself.
That's literally comforting. And because it's not just us, it's

(11:01):
not just the sense of it. Folks jumped into my
life who had walked that path. So I did not
know what I did not know, and I did not
know anything about being divorced with five kids. I did
not know anything about that. And so when people started
saying this is how you're going to feel right now,
this is how you're going to feel next, this is
how you're going to feel in six months, these are

(11:23):
some things you're gonna learn, These are some things that
I want you to know in advance. Here's how you're
going to recover. I mean, it was just unbelievably helpful
to have people who literally understood. So they weren't just sorry,
they weren't just compassionate. They literally understood what it was
like to have to go into your bank and be
like how many accounts do I have? Like what's my password?

(11:46):
How much is my electric bill? I was starting over
at that level. Yeah, I mean for anybody that's if
they're not following you, they should be. And again the
handle is at jin Hatmaker, but I feel like I
was following along on your journey and then you and
I have caught up on the side as well, and
it I mean, there's probably a lot of people in
that situation where if you're sharing a life with someone,

(12:08):
everyone has their different responsibilities and so then suddenly everything
is your responsibility for yourself and you feel, yes, at
whatever age you're at, you are now becoming a new
kind of adult again, and these things that you feel
like you should have trying like, and you've even decided
to put out courses because I think you learned so much. Yes,

(12:29):
I learned so much. I learned so much, not because
I'm so smart and so naturally good at personal finance
and um and like time management, I learned because I
had to. I mean, I've been married for twenty six years,
literally my entire adult life. I mean I got married
before I was an adult. I got married when I
was nineteen, I was a child, And so to some degree,

(12:50):
a lot of marriages have a division of labor and
it's not necessarily a bad thing, but ours definitely was
tool demarcated anyway. That's a whole other conversation. But yeah,
like starting over at forty six, where you were like
what kind of insurance policy do I have? And then
just managing it all by yourself. It's no joke. It's

(13:12):
no joke. And you're also trying. I was trying to
walk my kids through their own like trauma and grief
and and keep a career going. And it was COVID.
It was the very beginning of COVID. It was July.
And so I'll just tell you that I would not
go back to if you paid me seven hundred million dollars.

(13:32):
I mean, there is no way I have ever had
a word that year than that. But it is amazing
what we're capable of. We are resilient, We are, and
we're smart, and we're strong, we're able to learn. It's
not too late for us to learn. Just because we
don't know something about something doesn't mean we can't learn it.
And I discovered there's all kinds of people out there

(13:53):
willing to help, who can say, all right, get a pen,
get a paper, bring your laptop, bring your calendar, we're
gonna sit down for three hours, and we're gonna hash
this out. It was just unbelievable, Like my helpers came
out of the woodwork. I got goose bumps when you
said the word resilient because it's so true, and I
think sometimes we don't believe that about ourselves. And then
sometimes there's, you know, the negativity or the judgment that

(14:15):
can creep in, and then that can just really take
hold of you. So what do you have for us
when it comes to that. Now you're you're on a
public platform, and like you said, you had spent a
bulk of your career focusing on marriage and family, but
having to to start over in that way. Some people listening,
they're not they don't have a profile, but they have
family members, they have friends, they have coworkers and people

(14:38):
that might be saying things. So what do we do
with that? Well, first of all, that we can do
about that, that's going to happen. It will happen, and
it does happen. And so people are just it's like
a hobby for some people to weigh in from the
peanut gallery on other people's pain. It's just what they'll do.
It's what they're going to do. People will make snap judgments.

(14:58):
We will be misunderstood. Listen, I hate being misunderstood. That
is probably my least favorite category. And an indiogram three.
So this sense that people understand me correctly and and
have the full story and then love me for who
I am is inappropriately deep. But it's gonna happen. It
is and and so I think there's this moment I

(15:20):
think when you begin a process of like suffering and recovery,
where you just have to say, there are some things
that are mine to manage. There in my little yard,
my fences around it, and those belong to me, and
that's mine. Some things are outside of my fence, and
that's one of them. What people are going to say
or do, what they're going to assume, What if they're
going to gossip, if they are going to speculate if

(15:43):
they are going to mischaracterize you, or misjudge you, or
even intentionally go with God people, I cannot be in
charge of everybody's foolishness. So just laying that down on
the front end and realizing that even if you are
a misrepresented you're not going to die, You're really not.

(16:04):
They can't take you out and they don't actually have
a real bearing on your life. Like it feels so monumental,
it feels so painful because you're already hurting and then
you're dealing with all this other like noise surrounding it
that may or may not be true or fully true,
which is probably more accurate. Something has to go. So
what needs to stay is your own little heart and soul,

(16:27):
your own personal recovery, your people that you love the
most and love you the most, your little family, your
closest friends, your absolute closest colleagues like you that all stays,
That stays and stays and stays. So you're gonna have
to decide where am I going to not give my energy?
And for me, that was one of them, because, as
you can imagine, people wanted to wildly speculate about what

(16:48):
went wrong. Right, of course they did. And I kept
that really really private because I get to do that,
and I would tell anybody, I don't care if you're
a public person or not, you have the right to
pry the sea. And there is a difference between secrecy
and privacy. I mean, secrecy is sometimes marked by shame
or like untruth, but privacy you deserve. Everybody does not

(17:12):
deserve a front row seat to the details of your life,
particularly your pain. And so I kept my private life
private and I let the river's rage all around me
and it didn't take me out. Well, you said a

(17:37):
minute ago, we couldn't pay you. I don't know if
you said like seven million or something crazy dollars to
go back to, which I feel that. I feel like
my was like that for me. Yeah, were share of
my life. But you know now that we're on the
other side. Like I read your post from this summer
that I shared at the beginning, and I read that

(17:58):
because I knew it would be such encouragement to people.
And if they go look at the picture, you do
look like a different person. Yes, it's night and day.
I see it. To me, I would have seen that
picture two years ago and not really know anything. But
when you see it side by side with the gen
now your radiant, you're glowing, you you have a lightness
about you. It's different. So you went through all that,
and then there was the healing, and then there's all

(18:19):
these fun things that are happening to you now, like
Tyler merritt Um, the new boyfriend, and all these exciting
things too that you never thought would be a part
of your story right at all. So it's like, well,
I don't want to go back to it, but I
guess I'm glad it happened because look at me now.
It's the weirdest thing. I mean, I know people say

(18:42):
that all the time, and I wish it weren't true.
And I actually hate this system, I really do. I
hate this awful system that we tend to grow the most,
to learn the most, to become wiser and kinder and
more gentle, more honest through pain, and I just hate that.

(19:03):
That is the worst, Like why can't we get all
those goodies on the other side of happiness? Why doesn't
happiness produce it? But it doesn't. It's pain and it's loss,
and it's fear and its failure and and so almost
none of us would choose to go back and pick
those seasons of life. However, we can say and I

(19:26):
can say it, and I know you can do like authentically,
I mean it's sincerely. I am now grateful. I mean
I really am. I am so great when I think
about me right now, like what I know now, what
I am capable of, what I can do, what I've done, frankly,
how I have recovered, and how I held onto my

(19:47):
own honor. I am look so proud of that. And
also it's given me a confidence I did not have before.
I didn't know I was missing until I had it now.
But now I'm like, okay, boy, I learned some hard
lessons the hard way, but I know him now. I
know him now, and I will walk with this in me,
through me really all the rest of my days. And

(20:10):
so that's not it's a cold comfort when you're hurting.
People told me that right in the middle of it,
like you wait till you see you on the other
side of this. I'm like, I don't want to. I
don't want to see me on the other side of this.
I want to see me who I was, Like, I
want to go backward where everything made sense. I know
it's not comforting, but it is still true that if

(20:31):
we can hang on, and if we can hold on
like you read earlier, to everything that's good that we
care about, that we value, it will see us through.
It really will, and it will deliver us stronger and
better on the other side. Yeah, it's almost like suffering
is just it's stupid. It's stupid. I hate it, but
then it's also completely necessary. It is and it changes

(20:54):
us for better, for the better, if we'll let it,
if we'll let if we'll let absolutely, like you could
have wallowed in your pain for two years and become
this miserable person inside and out and just not morphed
into this, this lighter version. People have to go look
at the picture, it's like, and then you can do
this in your own life. Go look at pictures of yourself,

(21:16):
maybe at one point in your life, and it's really
wild how you are able to see it. And then
if you're not there yet, you might be in picture one,
but let that be encouragement and hope that picture two
is there for you. But you have to know it.
Like Jen said, I'm glad you said that. You have
to believe that it is possible. And it's true, and
that you do have the capacity for all the things,

(21:37):
and that you will get to the other side and
you can heal, and then starting over suddenly not daunting
it can. I've been going through some things that seems
so daunting, so daunting. A year ago, I wasn't even frankly,
really going to go through it because it's too daunting.
And then once you get there and you're in the
process of it, and you're doing it, and you're surrounding
yourself with people, and you have the advice and the

(21:59):
love and the hair and the tenderness, and you you
put in the work. It's your jet garden and you're
taking care of it. Suddenly it's like, oh, there's a
little flower sprouting, the turtle vegetable popping up there, and
you see it, and then you get excited about it,
and then it's less daunting. It's so true, and it
builds something into you too. You are able to handle

(22:21):
the next thing better. Your fear diminishes. Now that I
feel like I have faced the most impossible scenario I
could ever imagine and I did it, I'm like, Okay,
come on, life, we can handle this. We can And
it's day by day. And I appreciate you saying this

(22:42):
because it does also matter. Time is a huge factor,
but also so is the work. So you do have
to be a proactive agent in your own healing. You
do have to do that. I don't find that that
sort of recovery just lands in our lap like a miracle.
It comes because we decide to get really serious about

(23:04):
our own junk. We go to therapy, um, we handle
our health. Like, my blood pressure went through the roof,
my body fell apart, so I went to my doctor
and went help me, help me. We're sleeping. We are
surrounding ourselves with people who love us and believe in us.
We are dealing with their own junk. We've got stuff,
We've got stuff. We're not perfect. So I think the

(23:24):
work cannot be ignored either, because sometimes that's the last
thing you have the energy for. You just want it
to not You just want it to all go away.
But that's not how it works. And so that, like
slogging away, chipping away at the mountain of just impossibilities,
is kind of what gets you there. And then you're like,

(23:45):
look what I can do. Oh my gosh, look what
I can do. It's amazing. It really will change you.
I feel like you're sharing this whole starting over chat
is going to be comforting to a lot of people.
But also what is comforting to a lot of us,
especially in me now that I'm in eating disort of recovery,
Like I think about certain things that used to stress

(24:06):
me out, but now I love food and I'm allowed
to love food, and it's amazing, And your cookbook, I
feel like food. In the meantime, while you're doing the
therapy and all the things, you can also enjoy some carbs,
because that's where I bring you comfort. So but the
cookbook for you was stepping outside of your your comfort

(24:26):
zone because I've read several of your books and Jen
is a New York Times bestselling author, and things have
grown off of that, But it started with books and
speaking and then of course you have your for the
Love podcast, and you love books. You have a whole
gen hat Maker book club, you have all the things,
but your books I have enjoyed. But in the food lane,

(24:48):
like a cookbook is a totally different monster. Like what
why would you think you're suddenly qualified to write a cookbook?
I mean, if I have asked that question, why I've
had said forty thousand times. You know what's so funny
is like, as a bridge between these two conversations, is
that for me, at least, it turned out that cooking

(25:10):
and food writing specifically the whole project was a part
of my kind of healing work because for me, creating,
being a creative writing, and then of course just this
like nurturing practice of cooking, which is just knife onion, butter, sizzle, music,

(25:32):
glass of wine. It's just nurturing in and of itself.
Putting my energy and my attention on a project like
that that didn't just literally feed my people, but it
kind of fed my soul a little bit. It fed
my creativity, and it worked out a new muscle that
I never really used. Was also a huge part of

(25:52):
recovery for me. And so I think there's this moment
when anyone is staring down a project that is just ridiculous,
where you're like, I am not credentialed, I am not
qualified for this, or if I am, it's barely or
it just feels scary like high risk could fail, which,

(26:14):
by the way, it's always true. Welcome to the human race. Um,
we are not guaranteed outcomes. I think there's this moment
of hubris where you just either decide or you don't
decide to say, I'm gonna go for this because I
want to. That's really it. Like I did not have
another sense of like guaranteed success here. I don't have

(26:37):
it now. Hell, that book is not out. I have
no idea how this book is gonna do. I absolutely
no idea. But I wanted to do it, like I
just wanted to. I really did. I couldnot think of
anything else I wanted to put my energy toward. It
was so fun and it was so different for me.
And it was during the worst year of my life

(26:58):
when I wrote it, and so it just provided this
space where my sad little brain could go and have
some respite and then have some tacos, you know, Like
it's just what I needed at the time. And so
I love INNY time I am talking to an innovator
or an entrepreneur or a risk taker in any capacity

(27:20):
and in any category where they're just like, I just
decided to do it because I wanted to. I'm like,
I love it. I love to see it. I think
that sort of risk and confidence and passion is often
rewarded one way or another commercially or not, but one
way or another, it gets rewarded. I feel like you're
inspiring someone listening right now. I know it may not

(27:42):
be for a cookbook, but it might be for something
else that they're just you know, on the edge about
let this vi your permission to go for it. And
you know you mentioned tacos and I know you posted
something the other day because again, the book's not out well,
depending podcasts are weird because people listen. But it's officially
coming out on October, which is next Tuesday, so maybe

(28:04):
out if you're listening to this late, but I'll link
it in the show notes. But it's called feed these People.
And I love the different category, like the different sections,
you know, because in most cookbooks it's like oh, appetizers, dinner, breakfast, dessert,
but no, not you. Yours is like food that goes
with carbs, right, food when you have no more dance

(28:28):
to give? And I'm like, that's a chapter I can
get into because yeah, you just flipped to that when
you know you need that or hilarious. I think your
sides one is like foods that go with other foods.
That's right. You know this is because I'm not a
credential cookbook writer. Like to your earlier question, like why
do you get to do this, I have no idea.
And when I first wrote it and I turned it in,

(28:51):
I mean, I just didn't follow any recipe writing protocol.
I didn't follow cookbook protocol. I just wrote it the
way I would want to read it. And I just
wrote it the way I've been writing rest pies for
years and years and years online. So that part is
not brand new. I've just always written these long, rambley,
bossy things. And so everybody's like, if you write a cookbook,
it needs to be just like this. I'm like, well, good,

(29:12):
because it's the only way I know how to write.
And so my sweet sweet editor, who has edited so
many like best selling cookbooks, she's like, um, this is different.
I'm like, I told you, I told you upfront, But
I think maybe that's fun. It doesn't bother me to
break a mold. It's more important to me that I

(29:32):
feel like I can stand by it, like this is
very gin hat maker, this cookbook. I maybe have never
written a cookbook before, but if you know me at all,
you will read what every page like this, so jin
and so that to me, feels like it has integrity
in it. Like I wrote the way that I would write,
it's absurd, Like in fact, I don't like dessert really
like it's just not I'm not a sweet tooth and

(29:53):
I just like salty food. But um, my best friend's son,
who I used to give baths to and now he
has like a mortgage, he's grown, was like, if you
don't have a dessert in this cookbook, I'm not buying it.
And I was like, well, so I made a dessert
chapter and it has one thing in it, one dessert,

(30:14):
and then we get to know what it is. It's
cramper lay. It's my only dessert that I love the
most in the world. So that's it. I was like,
I'm going to give you one dessert, and if you
want more, I guess just drink some champagne. I don't
know what else there is. And so it is non traditional,
this cookbook. So when it comes to testing things for cookbook,

(30:44):
I don't know if when you were blogging about recipes,
if you had to be super thorough because it's like, okay,
I made this my family, it worked, but a cookbook
seems like next level. How many times did you have
to cook the recipes and then who do you trust
to taste them and tell you what's up? And then
was there times you had to go back and be like, Okay, fine,
I'll add this, yes, times a million. It's a whole thing.

(31:05):
Like guess what. Writing a cookook is kind of hard.
Like I was just thinking, oh, you know, let's just
throw it up. Let's just throw it all together like
I do, which is kind of in precise, and like
I don't have a lot of measurements and I'm kind
of like, just put some it that is not gonna fly.
And so I had to put so many recipes in
the test kitchen so many times, and then everybody around
me is testing it. I have my friends come over

(31:27):
and they're eating like five completely non cohesive things like
that doesn't go together at all. I'm just like, I
need everybody to write their notes something She's absolutely failed,
and I had to redo over and over and then
I would send him in and my editor was like,
we got to tighten this up, like there have to
be quantities, and I'm like, and then I would go

(31:47):
back and write down all my quantities. So my friend
Daniel Walker, she told me She was like, Jin, I
can't stress this enough really for all cook writers, but
particularly how I think you're probably going to be. She's like,
you need some test kitchen recipe people like recipe testers,
and I'm like, oh, that is so smart. So we

(32:08):
recruited like three hundred people and gave them the whole book,
like way before it was solidified, and so can you
test all these I cannot tell you how many changes
I made because of their feedback. So yes, it turns
out it has to be a little bit precise. So
I got it as precise as I possibly could not.
For that, I was like, just print it, like, just

(32:29):
publish it. People will figure it out. Okay. Well, first
of all, my brain is like, wait a second, that's
a that's a gig, that's a job. So when you
send these, I mean, I'm these are probably just normal
everyday people, but it's like a hustle for them. They volunteer,
they get paid no volunteers. That was on my community.
I literally just went on socials almost like is there
any way anybody would be willing to test like two

(32:52):
recipes out of my cookbook? And everybody was like, yes, okay, cool.
I thought you pulled from like a database of like
I has recipes for just hooks, like this is a
cookbook for normals, Like it's a cook book for normal people.
So I'm like, I need to see of normal people
can follow this recipe and make it, and then that's

(33:12):
a success. So when it comes to food, what role
does that play in your life? Because I have a
feeling that I'm going to really love your answer. It's
always been super central and for a million reasons. I
genuinely love food, and I genuinely love cooking, and I
genuinely love feeding people. So it's just this perfect excuse

(33:36):
to gather your favorite people around a table. Everybody wants
to eat and nobody wants to do the work. I mean, literally,
this is it. This is how you get people in
your door. I thought this early on with kids. You know,
I have five kids, and so I learned the secret
right around the ten years when I was like, what
do I have to do to keep them here? My

(33:56):
old tricks don't work anymore. They're too big for that. Like,
what do I have to do to become the teen house?
So that my kids want to be here and their
friends want to be here? And it's cooking, and so
this was my trick and my ploy for all those teenagers.
They will stay here if you will feed them food.
And so I would just call up the stairs and

(34:17):
be like, who's here, who else is here? How many
people are eating here? And that I'll just put up
plates because it could be it could be too, it
could be fourteen. And so food is such a good
reason to come together, and then people are so people
feel loved by it. People feel loved when you cook

(34:40):
for them, even if you make them a hamburger. It
doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the thing is. The
thing is that you put your hands to it, that
you made it with love, and you invited them around
your table. That's really all that matters. And so that
connective tissue to me, both in my family and just
in my little community here, I can't figure out a
substitut to. I can't think of anything that I love

(35:02):
more than that. And so that's why I wrote it
in the first place. Food can be some people's love language.
And that's why I grew up with a dad where
that was what he did to show people, Hey, I
love you. I want to gather people. I kind of
wish he had expressed things verbally more. But you know,

(35:24):
looking back now, you know I realized on times that
I missed that opportunity to connect with him again because
I was dealing with my own stuff that I had
going on with food, and it gave me a lot
of anxiety and it sucks now. And I say that
to just encourage people, like, if you are struggling with
food and body image stuff like that hard work. Jen

(35:46):
and I were talking about a little bit ago, like
invest in that it is so worth it to get
yourself help. And I speak as someone on the other
side of that, because I missed opportunities around the table.
I missed the yummy things because I would bring my
own meal, and then of course I that would break
his heart. I mean, he never really said much to me,

(36:08):
but he was sort of confused, like, what is happening?
Why just she just bust out her own tupperware when
everybody else is enjoying this. And my dad was a
phenomenal cook and he has so many amazing recipes and
we lost him last year. But something my sister and
I have tossed around Jim is doing a cookbook of
some of his stuff. He used to have restaurants in Austin,
and I don't think yes. Back in the eighties, like

(36:31):
one of the most ones that's special to our family
was one that he named after my mom. It was
we grew up in Onion Creek, so south Austin and
right across where I don't know if Crumley's was there
when y'all moved to Austin, but now it's like a
car dealership, but it's right at the Onion Creek. I
thirty five exit and my dad had a restaurant called
Christopher's and my mom's maiden name was Christopher, and it

(36:54):
was I spent a lot of my childhood there, and
you know, my brother was a waiter there. It was
black Hie. A lot of people from Onion Creek would
come over and like have dinner. And my sister and
I were looking at the menu actually a couple of
weeks ago. And my sister is a beautiful writer, Like
she's so good and she's sort of coming into her
own thing right now. And her husband have a show

(37:16):
on HDTV, and she's I'm making her go to um Ali.
Fallon and Donald Miller do a workshop called Write Your Story.
In a couple of weeks and I'm making her come
and she's going because I'm like, you, Christie, you're going
to start writing. She's too introduced you to me. She's
seen you speak somewhere. Yeah, she's responsible for my introducing

(37:39):
you to me. But when you know, talking about cookbook
and I'm kind of going off on a little tangent here,
but I think it's important for people to hear sometimes
is that I don't want you to waste any more
time not gathering with people around food, because I wasted
a lot of that And there's so many special memories
that can be made, and so many recipes also that
I wanted to say this, like, ask your parents for recipes,

(38:01):
ask your grandparents to start collecting them now, because now
that my dad's gone, And what if one day my
sister and I do do that, which now I'm like,
oh shoot, it looks like it's going to be a
lot of work. There are people that can help you. Um.
I love this idea. What a wonderful idea like to
both like on and remember your dad, but also your
family and your future. I just think that is so fantastic.

(38:23):
There's so many cool memories to pull from, like from
the restaurants, and I don't know. I just think this
is fantastic, especially if she loves writing, Like between the
two of you, you can pull it off. Yeah, like
she can do her fancy cute we're writing herds and
draw people in y'all are very she's very she's she
brings you in engaging, yes, and you know, I don't know.
I can just remind people eat the day food like

(38:45):
it's not worth saving out on so and then we
both have different stories around the different foods and recipes.
But you did this for your kids. Jin now you're
five kids. They've got feed these people and I don't know,
I'm sure we have another one coming, I hope. So
you'll do feed these people, keep feeding these people, parting,
feeding these people exactly these people more which you know,

(39:08):
I can't imagine what your household is like now that
you don't have all those people you're feeding. Like you said,
you would yell upstairs how many people are here? And
sometimes there will be fourteen? And now what are what
are you doing with yourself with all your kids gone?
Like you said your forty eight, most empty nesters are
like sixty something that it's because you have a unique

(39:30):
situation too, with your high school or studying abroad. But
still and like empty nest, almost kind of temporarily. My
I've got five kids, and my fourth just went to college,
so he moved out and he's a freshman. But my fifth,
my baby, is in Spain for the year doing for
an exchange program, and so she'll be back next summer
and then home for her senior year. So I'm not

(39:51):
but four right now. Nobody lives here except for me,
and it is so weird, and I cannot figure out
what to do with food. I mean, I just not
figure it out. I I cook because I like to cook,
actually like to cook. I look forward to cooking, and
so it also that's the end of my work day.
I'm so happy to like put my stuff away and
get my knife and get the music on, like I

(40:13):
love that hour. But nobody lives here, so I end
up cooking what I think feels like this is probably
about right for one person, and it will feed me
for four days. I cannot get it right, um, and
so it is a little bit strange. So the solution here,
which is a good one, is that my brother, I'm

(40:34):
the oldest of four kids. We all live in Austin.
My brother and his wife and his two sons, who
are two and four, live five minutes that way, and
so I'm telling you three nights a week, I'm like,
y'all want dinner, and they're like, we'll be there in
thirty minutes because they're they're young, working parents. And so

(40:55):
I feed my brother and his family all the time,
and I'll make him anything he wants, don't care. I'm
like a short order cook. What else are you doing
though with this time, this gift of time that you have,
Hopefully you're using it to your advantage, even just self
care and taking care of yourself, because like you said,
you got Remy will be back like in a year.

(41:16):
But even still one child, that's nothing. It's like it's
it's like I'm finished. That's a really good question. It's
only been four weeks, and so I'm still very discompopulated.
And I was telling my girlfriends this weekend we were
together watching football, and I was like, my days fell
the same, busy, busy, busy work. It's work, and it's

(41:38):
all this that is not the difference. The difference is
when work is over and it's nighttime, so cooking and
then I'm discovering I am bored, Like I am just bored.
So you know, I have a Tyler is the man
that I'm dating, but he lives in Nashville, um, and
so he's not here on the daily. Otherwise I'd be
spending a ton of time with him, and I do,
but it's in travel. And so I'm like, I need

(42:01):
something to do. I am too busy of a b
to just not have anything to say. I don't know
what I'm gonna do. I need It's like I need
a hobby or I'm not quite sure. I haven't figured
it out, but I'm like, this is the gift of
I keep going to bed at eight o'clock because I'm like,
i don't know what else to do. I'm just gonna
go to bed. I guess, like, is it too early?

(42:24):
I mean no, it is never to know. Actually, you're right,
I love an eight pm bedtime. And I I don't
know if it's you that I'm pulling from stuff I've
seen on socials, But don't you have this thing about baths?
And I know you drew Remy a bath and you
went off on this whole thing of like, hey, parents,
sometimes just your kids just need a bath or a moment.
So I don't know, I feel like you need to

(42:45):
speak to that. I've had three baths this week, three
so and primarily because I'm just trying to fill time.
I'm like, how can I feel time? Let me get
a let me get a book, and I'll get into
bathtub and that's gonna take me thirty minutes. And so
I think I will get used to this. And you know,
all my best friends love right by me too, like
literally right by me. We're on the same street and

(43:07):
one straight back, and so we spend a ton of
time together. Three of us are empty nesters. It's like
we have a little gang that we've activated now that
we've raised all these kids. You know, we have matching scooters.
I don't know if you've seen that before, like vespa's
like for real, they're so legitimate. And we have a
golf cart and we are just for our tearing it

(43:28):
up down here in Baudha, like on our vespas and
on our golf cart, and so we're having fun. People
are asking me, are you so sad that all the
kids are going on? Like is it okay to say
that I'm not that I have been parenting since I
was twenty three years old, and it feels kind of
nice to just have a break in my brain where
I'm just not solventee problems all the live long day.

(43:51):
It's kind of nice to be honest with you. Are
those the same friends though too? That do you do
Friday night Pizza night with that cry? Yep? Every Friday?
Which is another food thing. But I feel like you're
your ideas of how you're living, and you've always been
a very social person. And again it does involved the
food component because I know you used to post about

(44:12):
a supper club. I don't know if you still do that,
but just you're very intentional with connection and fun. I
know you're three on the angiogram, but do you have
like a little bit of seven? Sean a Nique is
my friends Lina always says that I was a seven
um that I have misdiagnosed myself that I am a
textbook three. But I do have this seven energy in me.

(44:32):
I do love to have fun, and but I just
apply it in a three way, like three is just
always going to go all in, and so I go
all in on fun as much as I go all
in on work and it's going to be the best.
I'm gonna have the best trip, and just we're going
all out. And so you are right, that is a
huge value in my life. Absolutely huge are my friendships

(44:56):
and then also our commitment to each other to create experience.
So that means sometimes it's a big thing like a trip,
and sometimes it's a small thing like Friday night pizza night.
But one way or another that is not replaceable for me,
that is not negotiable either, and so I feel like
that keeps me even and healthy in a way that
almost nothing else does. You mentioned Shawna. So my sister

(45:20):
was sharing something with me. I think she learned it
from her. I don't know which book or what she's
read all of them. And she was saying something about
how because my sister got my dad's gene when it
comes to hospitality and having people over and cooking every
meal and doing all the things, and basically I don't
know Martha Stewart, and I feel as though I got

(45:41):
none of that, and it's annoying, and you know, I
want to serve things on paper plates and let's just
make it easy. And my sister says, now food tastes
better on real plates, and I'm like, okay, well we're
I'm hosting twenty three people and it's my house, so
you can do the dishes that right. She's like, okay,
I will. So she said something to me about Shauna, saying,

(46:06):
you know, hospitality is one thing or like you can
host people and like have people over and be a
good thing, but it's like what about the experience? Like
I want people. I don't want people to come and
just feel like this is hospitable or whatever. I want
them to walk away with an experience. And I thought, ah,
you know, and that's just that can be around food

(46:26):
or that could just be like in life in general,
and I feel like I need to get there kind
of what you're saying of like you're you're all in
and you're living for fun and creating experience with your friends.
And I feel like, now do you you if you
have you always been that way? Or is this part
of like the new you? And like you do you
feel like you're living life more than you were the
previous years before you went through all the suffering and

(46:49):
then the growth. Is it like gent two point oh?
Or how would you describe that part of you? Like
the fun part, I would say this part of me
has been baked in for a really long time. This
proceeds all this loss, and thank goodness because my friends
were an absolute lifeboat for me the last two years.

(47:11):
Because we've spent zillions of hours it can never count
um and so this has been a really baked in
part of my life really as long as I can remember.
But going back to something you just said about creating
an experience for people, which I've always loved to do too,
but not necessarily in a fancy way. So your sister

(47:34):
probably gets a lot of joy from like using the
beautiful plates and setting the beautiful table, and I do
too occasionally. Sometimes throwing a killer, beautiful dinner party is
just fun and special and you kind of pull out
all the stops. But I in my experience, both as
a host and as somebody who goes to somebody else's house,
I still get the whole experiential thing. On paper plates

(47:58):
like that does not defeat the sense of being like welcomed,
and it's the music, it's the people. Sometimes it's kitchy,
like we're gonna eat on paper plates and we're gonna
dump it on the trash can. Because I want to
spend more time with you than in the kitchen scraping
everything off of plates like that to me also signals

(48:18):
I'm here to be a part of this with you.
And so I think there's a lot of ways to
create an experience that is low brow, that is absolutely
like the opposite of fancy, the opposite of hard, because
that also to me tells me, you know what, you
are not trying to impress me. You are just welcoming me.

(48:39):
And I can feel the difference. You know, I feel welcomed,
and so I love that just as much when you
walk into somebody's house and all their shoes or by
the front door, I'm like, love it. I love it here,
like this is warm. I feel like I've got to
say this now because my sister is gonna listen back
to this and then be all irritated at me. I
should clarify the time I was hosting twenty three people

(48:59):
and when you wanted to eat off real dishes, it
was Thanksgiving Day, okay, And so yeah, we were was
we were creating a special experience. And she's not a
like she just probably would want me to clarify, so
she didn't put get put into right, and that she
too can eat off paper plates. But she's all about

(49:20):
I feel like y'all are y'all are very similar. But Christie,
that's just my disclaimer. So you know, Christie, you're not
fancy seven days a week. And also I got real
fancy on Thanksgiving, so I understand there's a time and
a place her fancy. That's right, that's right. Okay, you
want to do four things gratitude before we head out,

(49:40):
So I would love to hear from you a TV
show you're thankful for right now, a book, a food,
and a drink, and then someone to follow on Instagram.
Oh yes, I like these. I like these categories so much.
I would love to see a list of everything everyone's
ever said about these. That'd be fun to compile. Houston,
my my producer, you can put that together. Thanks, huh. Yes,

(50:02):
I mean I'm forever asking this these questions of people, like,
give me some recommendations. And so when I watch TV,
it's at night. That's what I when I get into bed,
and that's lights out, that's what. So my brain is
done and it doesn't want a hard thing. It wants
an easy thing. Um, and I generally like to laugh
and I don't like to be scared. I don't like
dramatic and dark. So thus what I love right now,

(50:25):
which has kind of recently come out, is Dairy Girls.
The next season, which is season three. Have you seen
this well, I haven't watched any episodes, but I know
it's it's not dairy like a cow. It's like d
e r r y. That's right. It's the name of
a town and it's in Ireland, and it is it's
high schoolers. It's Irish high schoolers in this quirky little
town and it's just it's so delightful that I howl

(50:48):
with laughter. I just love it. So the third season
just came out. You have to watch with close captions
because you can't understand the word they're saying. It's just
such a thick act um. But it's just it's so funny.
They're so quirky and inappropriate and just hilarious. Anyway, it's
kill everybody. Go watch Jerry Girls. It's on Netflix. I'm
going to check out season one since you just started

(51:11):
season three though, or that just came out. Yes, yes, okay,
what about a book? And my preference is to reach
for fiction. Fiction is my favorite thing to my favorite
thing to read when I'm thinking about gratitude, when I'm
putting it in the metric. Probably the book I've been
most grateful for the last two years consistently. It's called
Codependent No More and it's been around for like twenty

(51:33):
five years, maybe even thirty. It's by Melody Betty, and
I hated to find out that I was codependent. I
just didn't know what that meant and I didn't know
what it was. And Burne Brown told me I had
to read that book like right at the beginning of
everything falling apart, and it just made me so much.
Oh my god, it's right here on my dead find night.
It's marked up a billion look at it, Like, can

(51:55):
you just see how many every sentences, like every single
sentence is like underlined and starred. And so I've I
read that last year too, but I've worked my way
through it. I feel like it's one of those books
once you get it. Sometimes it for me, I felt
at times I was overwhelmed because I totally confused, and

(52:15):
I was like, what I don't So here's what I say.
There's also a workbook that you can get, so you
can get the workbook. Then you can also download the
audio book and you can listen to it and read it.
Not you don't have to sit there and listen to
it and read at the same time, but you can
consume it at different times and maybe read one chapter

(52:35):
and then later when you're driving, listen to that same
exact chapter. Such good advice, because it's a lot. It
is a beast, especially if if you're new to the concept,
even which I was, yes, even just like getting it
through my head was hard then much less applying it. However,
it has changed me in good ways. But it's a

(52:57):
heavy lift for sure. Okay, and don't even don't since
Jen and I have now said, well you you maybe
probably could, but not me. Anybody that asked me to
define codependency, I'm like, um, well, it can look a
lot of different ways, So like google it. It'll it'll

(53:17):
make you want to make you want to drink. So
let's move on to that. Speaking of so, just this
year in and I don't even remember what the impetus
was it before it was I think it was because
it was the specialty where I was that night and
someone talked me into it. But I ordered an old
fashioned you know, which is like a classic cocktail. It's

(53:40):
just never ever been my reach. If I'm going to
drink something, I'd like it to be wine. But I
can't remember why. They're like, you're just gonna want to
try it here, And it was so delicious and so
thus I now have old fashioned on the brain. That is,
I bought all the ingredients to make it my own self,
like I'm working on with the little orange peel and

(54:01):
the bitters and the whole thing. I'm like, this is
a good cocktail to know how to do. It's just
like such a classic. So what's the animal in there?
Because I don't never had one Bourbon or whiskey, whichever
your preferences, Okay, Because I feel like whenever Madman was
really popular and they would drink I can't maybe it
was scotch whatever they did. I went out because I thought, oh,

(54:24):
I want to be like them. Now. I did my
friend and my friend's Sunday and I we did two things.
We went out to eat and just ordered scotch neat
or whatever. That did not go well. Gross, it was disgusting.
And then we also, you know, smoked a few cigarettes
because that's all they did on Madman, and it made
you want to be there? Did it remed? That also

(54:45):
made me want a gag And so yeah, those are
both gross unfortunately. Um but old fashion is good. But
an old fashioned is really really good. And it is
like just a delicious cocktail to both like enjoy and profess.
And also it's cozy. It's a very fal drink like
to me, it's very warm and it could be a

(55:07):
little spicy. It's like perfect for right now. So anyway,
that's what I'm loving. What about Instagram, Paula, I hope
you follow this person, and if not, I'm so excited
to be the one to introduce you to him. Do
you follow Vic Blend's Can you spell that? V I
C B L E N D S? Okay? So this

(55:28):
is this young kid. I mean he's in his twenties
and he's a barber, but he like goes and gives
haircuts just random people everywhere in parks and on streets.
But then while he's giving them haircuts, he just has
the most uplifting, positive, encouraging, motivational conversations with them. And

(55:51):
these are people from all walks of life, like everything,
and I just love him. I have never seen one
of his posts that I am like, wish I hadn't
just spent two minutes on that. Just the world is
so stupid right now. Everythings such garbage. It's just burning.
It's just nice to follow somebody who's just like so
dear and good and making you happy and having conversations

(56:12):
that are inspiring. Please follow him immediately. You're gonna be
so happy you did. And then I want you to
text me once you start following him, because I know
you're gonna love him. Oh yes, no, I'm already I
already hit the follow button and I'm looking at some
of his posts, and yes, he's like just goes to
parks cutting kids hairs and then he puts up the
whole thing and he's like, I hope this conversation can
help someone today. Yeah, you'll love him. You'll absolutely love him, Like,

(56:34):
and he's huge on TikTok, but you know, oh well
even on Instagram two point one million. Yes, so I
follow him on his TikTok's on Instagram because I'm old.
My kids tell me that's what old people do. I'm like,
I don't care. I'll give it where I get it,
and I get it on Instagram so yes, you're going
to enjoy him so very much. Okay, so I was.

(56:56):
I was going to actually ask you where you spend
most of your time, but it is Instagram on socials.
Feel like I spend the most of the time on Instagram.
It's it's the one that's the least awful to me.
I pretty much quit Twitter. Um. I quit Twitter mostly.
I just couldn't do it anymore. It just the law
of diminishing returns applied to Twitter so much. It was

(57:17):
where everybody was in my feed, the meanest, the maddest,
the worst. And I'm like, if I don't love any
seconds on this platform anymore, maybe I should just quit.
So I'm really not on Twitter at all. I'm still
on Facebook and Instagram because I'm an old. I'm old.
I understand that. Yeah, No, I mean I get this
right soon, I know. I I try to. I go

(57:38):
on TikTok and then have you downloaded? Be real yet? Okay,
my friends are all on it, and I downloaded to
be a part of it, But all it feels like
to me is homework every day when it beats in,
and I'm like, I'm busy. I'm busy, and so I've
I don't ever do to be real. They're like, why
are you even on here? I'm like, I don't know why.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure yet. I know same.
I'm like some days and like okay, fine, and then

(58:00):
other days and like stressed because I'm like, I only
have two minutes to be real. But then I learned
you can post late and I'm like, okay, I'll past
it later, no big deal, and we have two minutes
to be real. That's exactly how it felt to me,
Like I just stop telling me what to do. Well,
if you want to see more of Jen on socials,
I guess the best place to look is um, the

(58:21):
Instagram and the Facebook. That's it. That's where old people are.
And then but people can see you in person coming
up in November because you're doing You're All the Dish Tour,
So people want to check that out. I know they
can go to Jen hatmaker dot com slash events and
see the different cities that you're going to go to.
I think you're just knocking them out. Boom boom boom,

(58:42):
a different city every night, every city and night. Ye exactly,
it's bananas. Okay, Well, Jen, thank you for taking the time,
and congratulations on your your new baby and stepping outside
of your comfort zone. I'm so glad you did because
I feel like this cookbook is just going to be
so amazing and so many people are gonna love it.
And again that's called these people. And I'll link the
tour in the show notes to just want to see

(59:04):
if she's coming to a sitting here. I know you're
doing Austin, Nashville, Dallas, Tulsa, Westmoine, Houston. There we go,
so maybe if you're listening you can go and see her. Well, Jim,
thank you so much, love you love me too. I
just always love talking with you and you're a huge
encouragement to me online. And I've said that to you before,

(59:26):
but I'll say it again in front of all the
podcast world or those that are listening, because I think
it's finding those people that you know you can follow,
or it might not be someone that you've talked to
every day, but it's just it's a testament to to
who you follow and how it can be an encouragement
and social media isn't all bad, that's it can be
used for good. So thank you for the encouragement that

(59:48):
you are to me and so many others welcome. I

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jen Hatmaker: Starting Over, Being Outside Of Your Comfort Zone, Empty Nesting & Gratitude