March 20, 2025 • 33 mins
Amy was inspired by a conversation with her girlfriends at her birthday party this week to share a chat that Kat had with Justin Baldoni about some of the harmful messages that our culture's idea of masculinity creates. Justin came out with a book, titled Man Enough: Undefining My Masculinity, and started the Man Enough Podcast in 2021 in an effort to further undefine masculinity and offer freedom to those who have been hurt by the current popular beliefs of what being a man looks like. In this episode you will hear about some of those beliefs and gain a better understanding of why we need to start shifting how we view masculinity.
HOSTS:
Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy
Kat Vanburen // @KatVanburen // @YouNeedTherapyPodcast // YouNeedTherapyPodcast.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Okay, cats up thing little food for yourself life. Oh
it's pretty bad.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey, it's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Thing beautiful that for a little mouth's exciting, said, he
can cut your kicking with four Thing with Amy.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Brown, Happy Thursday. Four Things Amy Here. So I was
with my girlfriends last night for a little birthday celebration,
and today's episode is inspired by that. Kat arranged an
outdoor yoga class with six of our friends and it
was glorious, Like it was awesome. Bloom and Balance Wellness
is who she hired and they were amazing. I will
(00:53):
definitely be booking them myself for something in the future.
So if you're in Nashville, you're visiting for a bachelorette
or girls weekend, or even if guys are with you too,
make this one of your activities.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
They will come to you.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
They bring Matt's towels, spaw water, and intention cards or
waiting on your map for you. And my card said
I am on the right path and I trust that
things are moving in my favor, which that card is
so perfect for me right now. We did pilates and yoga,
so it was a fusion class and that was my
(01:25):
mantra while we worked out, I am on the right path,
and I trust things are moving in my favor and
that feels very very true for me right now, very true,
which feels really good. So anyway, Bloom and Balance, Bloom
and Balance Wellness, that is I think that's their full thing.
I try to look for their website. I don't know
if they have one, which is totally fine because they
have an Instagram and you can learn everything there and
(01:45):
their handle is at Bloom and Balance Wellness and I
just wanted to tell you all how amazing they are.
One of their posts on their Instagram says, hi, friends,
we are Bloom and Balance, two best friends bringing our
love of yoga and pilates to Nashville. Our mission is
to combine fitness, a good time and bring it to
wherever you are. Whether your group prefers a little sweat
(02:05):
sash or a restorative practice, it's whatever your jam is.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Let us curate your perfect class.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And they put a little heart so for us it
was more restorative and it was just what we needed.
It was a perfect way to sell Aburt my birthday
and I loved it. My friends loved it. So thank
you Kat for booking that we set up little blankets
afterwards for a picnic and we watched the sunset and
we talked and it was again the perfect way to
sell aburt my birthday. But a couple of my friends
(02:31):
are boy moms, so that leads me to today's episode
Gracie and Ali, and they were talking about how tender
their little boys are. Other boys are younger, and my
son is fourteen, Stevenson, but he also has a very
tender heart. So we were all looking at each other
like what happens to guys, Like somewhere along the way culturally,
(02:53):
many males lose touch with their tenderness. And so Kat
chimed in and she was like, oh, this is what
my EPs episode with Justin Baldoni was about. So I
would like for y'all to get to know Kat a
little more. And I think playing this interview is perfect
for this conversation because whether you're a boy mom, or
(03:14):
you're married to a boy, or you are dating a boy,
or might marry a boy one day, or have men
in your lives. I don't know why I keep saying boys,
but hopefully by the time you're getting married, they're a man.
But this episode is a great chat should be helpful
for you, and Kat would like it to be known
that she is proudly team Justin. This episode was recorded
(03:37):
for her You Need Therapy podcast a few years ago,
so there is no Blake Lively. It ends with us drama,
but she's Team Justin. All right, hope y'all have the
day you need to have and that you enjoy this
chat with Kat and Justin Baldoni.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Okay, so let's start with this question.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
So reading the book and then also listening to your podcast,
and also so your Ted talk that was I think
did that kind of spearhead all of this.
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Yeah, I started shooting the Men and of TV digital
series and then I did the Ted Talk.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
But the Ted Talk really is what kind of took
everything off, and I took off and inspired me to
go deeper.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
So a lot of what you are talking about is
talking about masculinity, the way the world's set up in
our culture and a lot.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Of the issues with it.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
But at the same time, the way that our culture
is set up around just like men and patriarchy, and
a lot of that benefits you in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
So I want to hear what has been.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Like for you to kind of break some of that down,
especially because I think depending on who you are and
where you are in your life, there's probably people that
are like, don't mess this up for us. You know,
there's probably some men that are like, well, this is
working for us because if we have our horse blinders on,
we don't have to pay attention to a lot of
stuff that you're exposing.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
So what has that process been like for you?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's a great question. Not the or fun or comfortable.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
But before you even get into that, the idea of
there's like a lot of men that would say, don't
mess this up for us is I think part of
the issue in that men aren't saying that because most
men don't think they're at an advantage. So this could
be controversial, but I just believe in the goodness of men,
(05:22):
and I don't believe that men are out there thinking
that this world benefits me. I'm at an advantage and
therefore I want to keep my power, because that would
be assuming that most men are not good men and
they're power hungry and they want to stay dominant. I
honestly believe, especially the men who are kind of anti
(05:42):
this movement of equality or keep men strong and all
this type of stuff. I honestly believe those men have
the most fear and that they they are looking at
their lives and saying, my life is freaking hard. I'm hurting,
I'm struggling. Work's not going great, you know, trying to
make it this work with my wife. I'm working too much.
I don't get to see my kids.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Like I think. I think that men are like, this
isn't working for me.
Speaker 6 (06:06):
Don't tell me I'm at a disadvantage, or don't don't
tell me I'm at an advantage. Don't tell me that
I have privilege. I think that that's where it comes from.
I don't think it's like I have all this power,
this world benefits me, and therefore, like f this guy
and stop talking about gender equality, because what we know
about privilege is that for folks with privilege, equality can
feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King. So in terms
(06:29):
of just this movement itself and like equality, I think
the issue is that, yes, as a man, I have
privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man, that
women don't have, that black men don't have. Right, gay
men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
But I was not.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
Taught to recognize that privilege as a man, I was
just brought up in this society and told this is
how it goes, and this is how it works, and
this is what you have to do if you want
to succeed or win.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And the problem with having.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
That type of privileg it's in a patriarchal society, is
that I am not allowed to hurt. So while yes,
there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as an example,
I don't have to worry about being sexually assaulted or
raped when I walk down the street. Right, I in
general know that just from being born, and if I
have an education, I'll make more money than women.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Right, there's innate privileges that come with it.
Speaker 6 (07:23):
But what doesn't come with it is the space to
hurt and to be in distress and to be depressed
and to be confused and to be and to have
anxiety and to be a human being in our culture.
So there's like, there's clear benefits, but I actually believe
that while it's benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more
than it's helping me, because all of the benefits I'm
(07:45):
getting from the patriarchy are material benefits the emotional tax
that I have to pay for that I believe is
far higher than the benefits, which is why I'm doing
this work, is why Yeah, I did it sets out reluctantly,
which is why I ended up writing the book reluctantly,
because I know that by coming out and challenging this
(08:06):
system and by saying this isn't working for anybody, there
are never going to be men who don't recognize that
they are even hurting, who don't recognize that they have
an eight privilege.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Who are going to then use what they have been.
Speaker 6 (08:22):
Taught the power dynamic of the patriarchy, to attack me
and bring me down and make me feel less than that's,
of course, the reluctance to doing this type of work.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Does that answer your question a little bit?
Speaker 4 (08:32):
That more than answers my question. Everything you said was both.
It's hard.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
I think part of it's hard for me to hear
that because that was my thoughts, in my bias, in
my own mind coming through asking that question. One, because
I'm not a guy and I'm not a man, and
it's making me think about the difference between as a therapist,
I work primarily with women, not because that's what I
ask to work with because the majority of people going
(08:59):
to therapy are women.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
And another thing is my specialty is eating disorders and body.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Amp Oh so cool.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
So the other thing about that is I have a
caseload of I probably have forty people in my caseload.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I think there's three guys.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Of those three guys, none of them are talking about
body image or eating or anything like that. And it's
also not because men don't have that problem. No, it's
because men aren't talking about that as much. Which to
go back to the chapter that I'm rereading, it's your
Body Image one two.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
That's a really deep chapter.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is
talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me,
I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation
to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff
and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things
and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men
(09:54):
don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us. And
so yeah, maybe we do make more money or we
have this, or we have but the real meat of
what life is about, we don't have as much space
in that realm.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
No, there's no space, and it makes this makes perfect sense.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
There's very few men in your practice, especially as it relates.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
To eating disorders, because what.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
We've done is we've disguised eating disorders as a as
a sign of masculinity. Like if you look at how
we as men are told we should look when our
bodies should look like, you really can't get there unless
you have some form of an eating disorder.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
I mean we've even disguised, like I know a ton
of men with eating disorders that just.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Say that they're fasting.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
You know, look at our diets, look at the way
we're look at the way we're eating, and the way
that we are tracking calories and all of these types
of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life,
which is why I talk in the book about the
why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome,
and that and that outcome isn't your job or truly
really your happiness. There's an underlying issue there that you're
(11:03):
not actually dealing with. And yet, you know, we follow
Instagram influencers and all these diet coaches and all these
types of things. In reality, like I know a lot
of these guys that are really unhappy.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
They are they need therapy.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
And they repress it and they push it down, and
they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that
they eat, and they obsess over their food and if
they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty four hours.
Like this is all very normalized types of things, but
we've normalized it because it's a sign of masculinity, it's
a sign of an attractive body, when in reality, there's
a very high chance probability that there's some meeting disorder
(11:38):
stuff happening there.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And on top of that, we have image.
Speaker 6 (11:41):
Disorders and body like body ed morphia, multipless morphia, all
these types of things that so many of us men have,
but we've just chucked that up to being men. This
is just a part of it, and we're not actually
talking about it. And also, finally, as it relates to
like the idea that there's no men in therapy or
in your practice, women have had to lean on each
(12:01):
other and build community to cope. I believe with the
stress and tacts of what it means to be a
woman in society, women that have had to be there
for each.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Other because men can't be there for each other.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
And therefore, in addition to all the bullshit that women
have to put up with on a daily basis from men,
men also then put women in a place where they
have to be their therapists and confide in them. So
not only are women holding all of the female things
that happen to them on a daily basis, the microaggressions,
the fear of sexual assault or rape, and the stress
(12:34):
of trying to raise a family and be mothers and
and get in and basically give herself to everybody, she
now has to also hold the weight of her man
because her man can't talk to men or anybody else
because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, and the only place
a woman can go is other women. So therefore community
was built, which is why, like, I know, you know
(12:56):
so many women who on like you know, they see
another woman and boom, how are you? What's happening in
your life? Tell me are you okay? And men are
just like, let's just avoid that conversation forever. Let's just
watch the game, drink a beer and whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Here's my question for you.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
What happens when a guy does do that like what
happens when a guy goes over to somebody's house and
maybe you're going to watch a game and you're like, hey,
before we put the game on.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
I don't know if men do this, Like how are you?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Men don't do that?
Speaker 6 (13:30):
The problem is is that from a very early age,
I don't want to say all men, but a vast
majority of men from my research and both in my research,
both in my personal life and also actual research, are
taught that that's not.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
A safe thing to do.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
And that happens because early on, when we're kids, when
we're in situations that would require vulnerability, or when our
bodies are changing, or if something happens, oftentimes the thing
that happens turns into shaming and like public shaming and
making fun of and humiliation, And what we're taught.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Then is that men are not safe spaces.
Speaker 6 (14:10):
That if I'm going to, as an example, like you
know who knows piss in my pants or something as
a kid, or pe in the bed and I'm going
to sleep over, then those boys will go tell other
boys and I'll get made fun of at school. So
the vulnerability thing, right, the thing that I'm struggling with
as a kid will then be used against me. Why
(14:30):
because as boys were taught that we have to one
up each other in order to gain power and popularity. Right,
So the ladder of achieving that this mythical alpha status,
even as a young boy, is using other people, put
putting other boys down to build yourself up. That's this
mirage of the patriarchy. That's how it's that's what it's
(14:52):
built on. It's this one upmanship. And so God knows
whether you're like, you know, the kid that had an
acted in it when you den well, we know that boys.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Hate that and keep calling that kid that name until
their teen years in high school, forever, forever you get
labeled these things.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
I remember I remember being what was I maybe eleven,
eleven or twelve or something, and my body was changing
like all the other kids, and I was getting these
like you know, the wind could blow and I would
get an erection. This is what happens to young boys.
Nobody talks to us about it. Our parents don't talk
to us about it. We don't learn about it in school,
we don't learn how to deal with it. So suddenly
(15:30):
there's just shame around it, and our bodies are changing
their shame around it. We haven't discovered sex yet. By
eleven or twelve, I had actually already been introduced to porn,
although my body hadn't really started changing so much yet
that I was able to use it to like masturbate
or things like that. But we're exposed to these things
at a young age. And I remember being with another
guy and no thought, no anything, My body is just
(15:53):
like I just got an erection, and I remember tucking
it into my pants and making a joke about it
because he's another boy and he's going through p and
I'm like, oh.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
He'll get it.
Speaker 6 (16:01):
And instead he went to school and started a room
or that I touched myself around.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Him, and I didn't know what happened, and all of
a sudden, everybody was laughing at me. When I got
off the butt the next day, and this was my
good friend, and I was like, what's happening? And people
were and girls were laughing, and guys were laughing, and
they were calling me names, and luckily I had so
many friends that were girls. I said, what's going on?
And a girl whispered to me.
Speaker 6 (16:22):
And they said, he said that you were touching yourself
in front of him, and I was mortified because I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I literally was adjusting my eleven year old direction. And
here was this boy who knew that if you went
to school the next day and made fun of me,
that everybody would view him as more powerful or popular
or whatever it is. So at eleven years old, I knew, Boom,
men are not safe. Boys are not safe. Girls are safe,
(16:49):
and that's what we do.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
So that's in us, and every man has their own
version of that, their own experience. But that happens over
and over and over and over again in our lives.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
So much was just brought up in that I'm sitting
here thinking about, like, so, then what do we do?
Because you're bringing back a memory for me of working
in a treatment center. I worked in the eating disorder program,
but there's tons of different programs here. I worked with women,
but I was I started a men's body image group
because I was like, I think people might want to come.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
And little by little, one guy came.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Then the next week, three guys came, the next week
finally there's like ten twelve guys, which was a cap
And one of the guys said to me one day
because I was like, do you guys like want to
come here, like do we want me to keep doing this?
And he was like, Kat, this is the group and
these people are in its residential treatment, so they're in
groups in therapy all day long, all week long. He said,
I look forward to this group every week now. It
(17:43):
is the group that I feel the most safe. And
I don't necessarily know that that was because there's a
female running. It could have had something to do with that,
But I think the other thing is the group was
created to talk about things that weren't talked about in
their house, in their in their program, it was like
the women's issue. So that memory just got brought up
from me as you were talking, because they could have
(18:04):
been talking about that in their groups. They could have
been talking about body I mentioned in their group, but
obviously they didn't feel safe to do that because somebody
would have made fun of them, I'm sure, or made
a joke or said something or looked at them weird.
And in that group, nobody was doing that because everybody
had the same shared issue. So long winded way, what
are we supposed to do to help men feel safe
with other men? So then the women aren't exhausted and
(18:25):
the men actually can get their needs met.
Speaker 6 (18:27):
The two things that I can think of, one of
them actually is and unfortunately comes back to women. Yeah,
because women are not immune from the shaming response either.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It's really tricky.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
So, you know, Bell Hooks is, I'm sure you've read
writes about female misogyny and I don't believe it's intentional.
I'm sure there are some women that are absolutely misogynistic
because for a lot of reasons, right, But it's very
surprising how many quote unquote woke women actually have a
lot of their own internal misogyny. And what that looks
like is I think a combination a lot of things.
(19:00):
One is, we've all been raised the same way men
and women have been socialized in the same way. Women
have been socialized to view men in the same way
that men have been socialized to view men, and to
be themselves.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So there is a part of many women, while they desire,
I believe vulnerability in a man, there's a part of
them that has been trained to be disgusted by it.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Well. Yeah, it's like in my head, I just thought,
like be vulnerable, but like not too much, Like I
want I want my partner to cry, but I don't
want him to be like two whiny and.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
What is that line, right? And that's a really tricky thing.
Speaker 6 (19:36):
Glennon Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility that
women have here and really this is a woman's conversation.
I can't have the conversation for women. What I can
tell women who are listening, assuming that most of your
listeners are women, is that be very mindful of the
moment a man opens up to you and your reaction,
because your reaction will train him whether or not it's
(20:00):
safe for him to open up. Because if he can't
open up with men, and he does finally open up
with a woman and the woman loses attraction or tells
him to man up, which has happened many times. Yeah,
you're creating a situation where a man literally has.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Nowhere to go. Now.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, putting their
own women, but we have to start somewhere, and there's
nowhere for us to go. The idea of going to
a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for many men
who have never trained, Like, it's not going up and
hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into Mount Everest.
Talking to another dude calling another guy and being like,
(20:41):
hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist in our vocabulary,
which is why so many of us men go to
women and have made women are therapists. The difference is
how can women hold some of that without allowing that
boundary to be crossed so that they don't become the therapist?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And what ends up happening?
Speaker 6 (20:59):
As I've had I can't even tell you how many
messages I have from men who have watched that Ted
Talker read the book now and have opened up to
women and had and the women have rejected them. It
just happens all the time, and not even the woman's fault,
because the woman has been told this part of a
man if they do this, the guy's a pussy, that
guy's of this, that guy's he's weak and he and
then what do we tell women that a weak man
(21:21):
can't protect them?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Why? Because women need to be protected from who from men?
Speaker 6 (21:27):
So it goes back to it's it's it's like, I
have so much empathy and compassion especially for women here
because it's not your fault. You need a strong man
to protect you from other men. So the idea of
vulnerability when it comes into the equation. It makes women
feel unsafe in this strange way. And so what I
would ask is, like, read Bell Hooks, Read Glenn and
(21:49):
Doyle's book, Read Untamed about especially her chapter I think
It's Boys where she talks about it. See if you
can push past that initial response and hold it for
a moment, and then let's like not train our men
like the Pavlov style to run away from vulnerability. The
second piece of this is it's not just to snap
your fingers and men can create safe faiths for men,
(22:11):
but the only way it will start to work is
if there are super badass strong men who are willing
to start to be vulnerable, which is why I personally
believe if we were to slip the idea of these
masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Bravest man sure, like, great, you trained, you go, you
run into a burning building and save people's lives. Awesome?
Speaker 6 (22:36):
But can you run into the burning building of your
depression and share that with another man? I would argue
that the emotional bravery is true bravery.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
We we're talking about something that Berne Brown used to
talk a lot about in the beginning of herself too.
Is the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being
the kind of person who will run into a burning
and building, and courage is the kind of person who
will show up with their whole heart. That's what you're
talking about. And I think that's really important because I
mean that last part you said about like women need
(23:09):
men to be manly, masculine and strong and all of that,
because we need men to protect the whole cycles like
we need those men to protect us, but we need
those men to protect us because of the whole thing.
And the first yes, it's wild to me, which also,
(23:35):
this is one of my favorite quotes that I've pulled
from your book.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
And I might not say exactly correct.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
But you said something, Okay, great, so it was in
the body of a chapter. It's my favorite chapter so far.
But you said something like looking strong is in a
way to be strong, but a way to avoid being weak.
And I think that that's kind of what you're talking
right here. Like the person that runs into a burning
building to save somebody, that person looks really freaking strong,
and maybe they are in some aspect, but like, what
(24:02):
are are you doing that to look like a man?
Because you feel like you have to because of X,
Y Z or or why are you even doing that?
And then in your life and your relationship, in your
job and whatever, are you able to show up? Are
you able to run into the burning building of the
conflict that you guys have exactly?
Speaker 6 (24:21):
And and let's be mindful of course, because firefighters and
you know, police officers, right, you know, of military folks,
that is extreme bravery. It is and I don't want
to say like one is more important than the other,
but what you find oftentimes is is, uh, these professions
are professions, and they're high risk professions. But we've been
(24:43):
taught as men and boys as a young age that
those are the professions that equate to a certain masculine status,
like those are the heroes.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Right. So there's always this i think unmet need of
wanting to grow up and be and be seen as
that we're told to take physical risks. It hurts us
and it it kills us, and it also is the
thing that makes us brave because that young boys were
taught you're a boy, you're a man.
Speaker 6 (25:06):
Physical risks, take them, so you grow up and you
become these these these professions, these you know, responders, these heroes,
But can we also do that in our personal life,
which is what you're saying, and that cycle of like
training men that this is what it's this is what
it means for you to be a man, this is
this is the type of job this is. You know,
(25:27):
it's like we have freaking calendars of firefighters because women
like google at them because they're sexy in uniform and
they risk their lives and all of these things. But
like are they talking about their feelings? Are they depressed?
Are they what therapist's office are they in? You know, Look,
there's just there's so.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Much repressed anxiety and fear and frustration.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
That so many of us men are walking around with
that we don't have an outlet for so so it
goes into our work, It ends up as work addiction,
It goes into us taking more physical risks and we
don't have any place to put it.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
And you're helping kind of end that cycle. So I
do want to say thank you because I think that
when you were saying, like, we actually do need strong
men that are willing to take the risk to do
this to show up because somebody has to start, Like
somebody has to start and that brings me to my
very favorite quote of all time, and so Margaret me
quote and she said, never doubt that a small group
of committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's
(26:21):
the only thing that ever has. And that's one of
the reasons I was like, I need to talk to
you because literally what you're doing, like you're starting with
these conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk and
then you're writing this book and it started with a
lot of what I'm hearing, a lot of women actually
leaning into the work you're doing. And then from that
then men are actually being invited in. And so you
start your one person who has started kind of like
(26:44):
a huge shift. And I don't know if it feels
huge to you, but it's huge, like it really is.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Appreciate it. It's a I don't know.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
I always try to go back to the one person,
the one man, And every day I'm getting a few
of these one men who are writing sayings something or
saying that it shifts something, you know, And I get
to keep having these moments every day where it's like
it is working, it is helping, it is making a difference.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Our society focuses.
Speaker 6 (27:09):
So much on mass change, like mass impact how many people?
It's like we grow up right now, it's like, not
enough to affect one person, you have.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
To affect millions or what are you doing with your life?
Speaker 6 (27:21):
And that's not at all especially being raised in the
buy of faith, that's not at all our view. It
gods all back to how to be a humble servant
and affect that one person.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
So even in this world where.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
Yeah, I have millions of followers and all of these
types of things, it's about the one man because that
one man at any given point in time is interacting
with how many women on a daily basis? How many
other men? How many you know? Does he have children?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
This is how we change the world. You have to
do that. You have to So it's very tricky, it's confusing.
I still struggle with it.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
It's still hard for me to reach out to other
men because then when you get to a point when
you're known as that kind of person, you're like, you know,
all these men look up to me.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, now even in my.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
Group of friends, it's like a how do I tell
them that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all
of these things, you know, because we're never immune to.
It's why I wrote the book as a student, as
a teacher, So yeah, it's all in us. It's it's
my socialization is in me. So I could be writing
a book and giving ted talks and talking about these
things and yet still struggling to call my friend if
I'm struggling with something, and that's that's just being human.
(28:27):
Like we don't just reach the other side. It's a
constant daily practice.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, So
I get that as therapists should I.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
Agree, But I get I that all that you're saying
is like, yeah, I struggle every day with stuff, and
I have to go get myself checked out. And I
have to make sure that I'm like staying in line
with what my beliefs are, and I have to make
sure that I am getting help and feedback because as
somebody who like you're in a helping profession. Now, as
somebody who's helping others, you've got to check yourself. So
(28:57):
I just wanted to wrap all this up once say thing,
thank you for all of what you're doing. I will
promise at one point I will finish the book.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
But I really don't want to well.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
But the good news is if I don't, you now
have a podcast, which is awesome. I listened to Matthew
McConaughey's episode this morning while I was getting ready, So
that was really really interesting and good. Yeah, but so
many of those episodes have been awesome. So if you
guys that are listening are hearing something, you're like, I
need more of this, Like you've already heard me talk
about his book, But go get the book and listen
(29:28):
to the Man Enough podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
And where else can they find and hear you?
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Social media the love hate relationship I have with it,
But yeah, social media, but I think the Man of
Podcasts is a great It's a great place right now.
You're gonna love this as a therapist. I just had
a deep conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
With my dad.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Oh well, just so you know, I already listened to it.
I listened to it last week. I think when it
came I don't know if it was when it came out.
I listened to it on road hip.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
It was last week. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (29:51):
Yeah, and we're just we're trying to go there. My
wife's coming on, my wife. We just had my wife
on coming on next week. We have an amazing. Amazing folks.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
The conversation you had with your dad was honest, like
it was good, and what you have done is modeled.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Because I think a lot of people, especially.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
When I'm in therapy with them, I'm like, we're talking
about how to have some of those conversations that you had,
and it's so like people can't even imagine it.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
What do you mean?
Speaker 5 (30:15):
I'm gonna be honest with my dad and tell him
how he hurt me, but also to say thank you.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Like what do you mean?
Speaker 5 (30:21):
And you're giving like an example of what that can
look like.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
And I think that's awesome.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
We need examples right now. We just unfortunately have so
few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I mean
there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and I
and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz calls
me on it.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
You know, I have a female co host, and that's.
Speaker 6 (30:41):
Part of this process is we have to be willing
to make mistakes. And men don't like making mistakes, especially
publicly or admitting we don't know the answer. And a
huge part of this and why I'm doing it, is
just to show that, like we can stay in the room,
like you can be told you're wrong and you could
be hold you are sexist or chauven and stick and
it doesn't mean that you're a bad per person, doesn't
mean that you're all bad.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah that part.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
We can stay in the room what you just said, Like,
we can mess up and be almost called out to
an extent or approached or confronted and we can still
be good people, Like we can stay in the.
Speaker 6 (31:15):
Room with handfled you. It's not it's over for you
because you're yeah, could you make a mistake.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It's oh shit, I made a mistake. I didn't think
of it that way. I'm sorry, Boom.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
It's amazing, right that we can be human beings and
be messy and messed up and still have the opportunity
to be friends or.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So that's that's what we're working on.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
And I you know, I'm grateful for folks like you
that are doing this work, that are trying to get
the message out.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And if you're a man listening to this, just know that.
Speaker 6 (31:43):
Or if you're a woman listening to this and you
want your man to listen to this, and now you're
a man listening to this, just know that you have
an ocean of depth in you, and you are so
much more than what the world has put on you.
And the feelings and thoughts and dreams and sensitivities you
(32:04):
have don't make you less of a man.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
They make you more of a man because they make
you a human.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
And at the end of the day, our job as men,
I believe, is to figure out how to be the
best human beings we possibly can. And that starts with
like using these ideas of what it means to be manly,
to be masculine, and going in and going deep and
getting comfortable and the uncomfortable, and exploring who we are
as individuals and showing.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Up and staying in the room. And I appreciate you listening.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Okay, that was beautiful, So if you are anybody listening
to that, rewind that and listen to it again.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
That was amazing.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
So we're going to end on that because that was
a good way to kind of close it out.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
So thank you for being here.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
And yeah, everybody listening, you can follow us at at
You Need Therapy podcast, get the book, listen to the
podcast Man Enough, Man Enough podcast, and thank you for
being Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
We all need therapy.
Okay, cats up thing little food for yourself life. Oh
it's pretty bad.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey, it's pretty beautiful.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Thing beautiful that for a little mouth's exciting, said, he
can cut your kicking with four Thing with Amy.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Brown, Happy Thursday. Four Things Amy Here. So I was
with my girlfriends last night for a little birthday celebration,
and today's episode is inspired by that. Kat arranged an
outdoor yoga class with six of our friends and it
was glorious, Like it was awesome. Bloom and Balance Wellness
is who she hired and they were amazing. I will
(00:53):
definitely be booking them myself for something in the future.
So if you're in Nashville, you're visiting for a bachelorette
or girls weekend, or even if guys are with you too,
make this one of your activities.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
They will come to you.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
They bring Matt's towels, spaw water, and intention cards or
waiting on your map for you. And my card said
I am on the right path and I trust that
things are moving in my favor, which that card is
so perfect for me right now. We did pilates and yoga,
so it was a fusion class and that was my
(01:25):
mantra while we worked out, I am on the right path,
and I trust things are moving in my favor and
that feels very very true for me right now, very true,
which feels really good. So anyway, Bloom and Balance, Bloom
and Balance Wellness, that is I think that's their full thing.
I try to look for their website. I don't know
if they have one, which is totally fine because they
have an Instagram and you can learn everything there and
(01:45):
their handle is at Bloom and Balance Wellness and I
just wanted to tell you all how amazing they are.
One of their posts on their Instagram says, hi, friends,
we are Bloom and Balance, two best friends bringing our
love of yoga and pilates to Nashville. Our mission is
to combine fitness, a good time and bring it to
wherever you are. Whether your group prefers a little sweat
(02:05):
sash or a restorative practice, it's whatever your jam is.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Let us curate your perfect class.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And they put a little heart so for us it
was more restorative and it was just what we needed.
It was a perfect way to sell Aburt my birthday
and I loved it. My friends loved it. So thank
you Kat for booking that we set up little blankets
afterwards for a picnic and we watched the sunset and
we talked and it was again the perfect way to
sell aburt my birthday. But a couple of my friends
(02:31):
are boy moms, so that leads me to today's episode
Gracie and Ali, and they were talking about how tender
their little boys are. Other boys are younger, and my
son is fourteen, Stevenson, but he also has a very
tender heart. So we were all looking at each other
like what happens to guys, Like somewhere along the way culturally,
(02:53):
many males lose touch with their tenderness. And so Kat
chimed in and she was like, oh, this is what
my EPs episode with Justin Baldoni was about. So I
would like for y'all to get to know Kat a
little more. And I think playing this interview is perfect
for this conversation because whether you're a boy mom, or
(03:14):
you're married to a boy, or you are dating a boy,
or might marry a boy one day, or have men
in your lives. I don't know why I keep saying boys,
but hopefully by the time you're getting married, they're a man.
But this episode is a great chat should be helpful
for you, and Kat would like it to be known
that she is proudly team Justin. This episode was recorded
(03:37):
for her You Need Therapy podcast a few years ago,
so there is no Blake Lively. It ends with us drama,
but she's Team Justin. All right, hope y'all have the
day you need to have and that you enjoy this
chat with Kat and Justin Baldoni.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Okay, so let's start with this question.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
So reading the book and then also listening to your podcast,
and also so your Ted talk that was I think
did that kind of spearhead all of this.
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Yeah, I started shooting the Men and of TV digital
series and then I did the Ted Talk.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
But the Ted Talk really is what kind of took
everything off, and I took off and inspired me to
go deeper.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
So a lot of what you are talking about is
talking about masculinity, the way the world's set up in
our culture and a lot.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Of the issues with it.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
But at the same time, the way that our culture
is set up around just like men and patriarchy, and
a lot of that benefits you in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
So I want to hear what has been.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Like for you to kind of break some of that down,
especially because I think depending on who you are and
where you are in your life, there's probably people that
are like, don't mess this up for us. You know,
there's probably some men that are like, well, this is
working for us because if we have our horse blinders on,
we don't have to pay attention to a lot of
stuff that you're exposing.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
So what has that process been like for you?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
It's a great question. Not the or fun or comfortable.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
But before you even get into that, the idea of
there's like a lot of men that would say, don't
mess this up for us is I think part of
the issue in that men aren't saying that because most
men don't think they're at an advantage. So this could
be controversial, but I just believe in the goodness of men,
(05:22):
and I don't believe that men are out there thinking
that this world benefits me. I'm at an advantage and
therefore I want to keep my power, because that would
be assuming that most men are not good men and
they're power hungry and they want to stay dominant. I
honestly believe, especially the men who are kind of anti
(05:42):
this movement of equality or keep men strong and all
this type of stuff. I honestly believe those men have
the most fear and that they they are looking at
their lives and saying, my life is freaking hard. I'm hurting,
I'm struggling. Work's not going great, you know, trying to
make it this work with my wife. I'm working too much.
I don't get to see my kids.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Like I think. I think that men are like, this
isn't working for me.
Speaker 6 (06:06):
Don't tell me I'm at a disadvantage, or don't don't
tell me I'm at an advantage. Don't tell me that
I have privilege. I think that that's where it comes from.
I don't think it's like I have all this power,
this world benefits me, and therefore, like f this guy
and stop talking about gender equality, because what we know
about privilege is that for folks with privilege, equality can
feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King. So in terms
(06:29):
of just this movement itself and like equality, I think
the issue is that, yes, as a man, I have
privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man, that
women don't have, that black men don't have. Right, gay
men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
But I was not.
Speaker 6 (06:45):
Taught to recognize that privilege as a man, I was
just brought up in this society and told this is
how it goes, and this is how it works, and
this is what you have to do if you want
to succeed or win.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
And the problem with having.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
That type of privileg it's in a patriarchal society, is
that I am not allowed to hurt. So while yes,
there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as an example,
I don't have to worry about being sexually assaulted or
raped when I walk down the street. Right, I in
general know that just from being born, and if I
have an education, I'll make more money than women.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Right, there's innate privileges that come with it.
Speaker 6 (07:23):
But what doesn't come with it is the space to
hurt and to be in distress and to be depressed
and to be confused and to be and to have
anxiety and to be a human being in our culture.
So there's like, there's clear benefits, but I actually believe
that while it's benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more
than it's helping me, because all of the benefits I'm
(07:45):
getting from the patriarchy are material benefits the emotional tax
that I have to pay for that I believe is
far higher than the benefits, which is why I'm doing
this work, is why Yeah, I did it sets out reluctantly,
which is why I ended up writing the book reluctantly,
because I know that by coming out and challenging this
(08:06):
system and by saying this isn't working for anybody, there
are never going to be men who don't recognize that
they are even hurting, who don't recognize that they have
an eight privilege.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Who are going to then use what they have been.
Speaker 6 (08:22):
Taught the power dynamic of the patriarchy, to attack me
and bring me down and make me feel less than that's,
of course, the reluctance to doing this type of work.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Does that answer your question a little bit?
Speaker 4 (08:32):
That more than answers my question. Everything you said was both.
It's hard.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
I think part of it's hard for me to hear
that because that was my thoughts, in my bias, in
my own mind coming through asking that question. One, because
I'm not a guy and I'm not a man, and
it's making me think about the difference between as a therapist,
I work primarily with women, not because that's what I
ask to work with because the majority of people going
(08:59):
to therapy are women.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
And another thing is my specialty is eating disorders and body.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Amp Oh so cool.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
So the other thing about that is I have a
caseload of I probably have forty people in my caseload.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
I think there's three guys.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Of those three guys, none of them are talking about
body image or eating or anything like that. And it's
also not because men don't have that problem. No, it's
because men aren't talking about that as much. Which to
go back to the chapter that I'm rereading, it's your
Body Image one two.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
That's a really deep chapter.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is
talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me,
I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation
to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff
and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things
and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men
(09:54):
don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us. And
so yeah, maybe we do make more money or we
have this, or we have but the real meat of
what life is about, we don't have as much space
in that realm.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
No, there's no space, and it makes this makes perfect sense.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
There's very few men in your practice, especially as it relates.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
To eating disorders, because what.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
We've done is we've disguised eating disorders as a as
a sign of masculinity. Like if you look at how
we as men are told we should look when our
bodies should look like, you really can't get there unless
you have some form of an eating disorder.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
I mean we've even disguised, like I know a ton
of men with eating disorders that just.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Say that they're fasting.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
You know, look at our diets, look at the way
we're look at the way we're eating, and the way
that we are tracking calories and all of these types
of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life,
which is why I talk in the book about the
why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome,
and that and that outcome isn't your job or truly
really your happiness. There's an underlying issue there that you're
(11:03):
not actually dealing with. And yet, you know, we follow
Instagram influencers and all these diet coaches and all these
types of things. In reality, like I know a lot
of these guys that are really unhappy.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
They are they need therapy.
Speaker 6 (11:15):
And they repress it and they push it down, and
they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that
they eat, and they obsess over their food and if
they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty four hours.
Like this is all very normalized types of things, but
we've normalized it because it's a sign of masculinity, it's
a sign of an attractive body, when in reality, there's
a very high chance probability that there's some meeting disorder
(11:38):
stuff happening there.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And on top of that, we have image.
Speaker 6 (11:41):
Disorders and body like body ed morphia, multipless morphia, all
these types of things that so many of us men have,
but we've just chucked that up to being men. This
is just a part of it, and we're not actually
talking about it. And also, finally, as it relates to
like the idea that there's no men in therapy or
in your practice, women have had to lean on each
(12:01):
other and build community to cope. I believe with the
stress and tacts of what it means to be a
woman in society, women that have had to be there
for each.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Other because men can't be there for each other.
Speaker 6 (12:13):
And therefore, in addition to all the bullshit that women
have to put up with on a daily basis from men,
men also then put women in a place where they
have to be their therapists and confide in them. So
not only are women holding all of the female things
that happen to them on a daily basis, the microaggressions,
the fear of sexual assault or rape, and the stress
(12:34):
of trying to raise a family and be mothers and
and get in and basically give herself to everybody, she
now has to also hold the weight of her man
because her man can't talk to men or anybody else
because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, and the only place
a woman can go is other women. So therefore community
was built, which is why, like, I know, you know
(12:56):
so many women who on like you know, they see
another woman and boom, how are you? What's happening in
your life? Tell me are you okay? And men are
just like, let's just avoid that conversation forever. Let's just
watch the game, drink a beer and whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
Here's my question for you.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
What happens when a guy does do that like what
happens when a guy goes over to somebody's house and
maybe you're going to watch a game and you're like, hey,
before we put the game on.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
I don't know if men do this, Like how are you?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Men don't do that?
Speaker 6 (13:30):
The problem is is that from a very early age,
I don't want to say all men, but a vast
majority of men from my research and both in my research,
both in my personal life and also actual research, are
taught that that's not.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
A safe thing to do.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
And that happens because early on, when we're kids, when
we're in situations that would require vulnerability, or when our
bodies are changing, or if something happens, oftentimes the thing
that happens turns into shaming and like public shaming and
making fun of and humiliation, And what we're taught.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Then is that men are not safe spaces.
Speaker 6 (14:10):
That if I'm going to, as an example, like you
know who knows piss in my pants or something as
a kid, or pe in the bed and I'm going
to sleep over, then those boys will go tell other
boys and I'll get made fun of at school. So
the vulnerability thing, right, the thing that I'm struggling with
as a kid will then be used against me. Why
(14:30):
because as boys were taught that we have to one
up each other in order to gain power and popularity. Right,
So the ladder of achieving that this mythical alpha status,
even as a young boy, is using other people, put
putting other boys down to build yourself up. That's this
mirage of the patriarchy. That's how it's that's what it's
(14:52):
built on. It's this one upmanship. And so God knows
whether you're like, you know, the kid that had an
acted in it when you den well, we know that boys.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Hate that and keep calling that kid that name until
their teen years in high school, forever, forever you get
labeled these things.
Speaker 6 (15:08):
I remember I remember being what was I maybe eleven,
eleven or twelve or something, and my body was changing
like all the other kids, and I was getting these
like you know, the wind could blow and I would
get an erection. This is what happens to young boys.
Nobody talks to us about it. Our parents don't talk
to us about it. We don't learn about it in school,
we don't learn how to deal with it. So suddenly
(15:30):
there's just shame around it, and our bodies are changing
their shame around it. We haven't discovered sex yet. By
eleven or twelve, I had actually already been introduced to porn,
although my body hadn't really started changing so much yet
that I was able to use it to like masturbate
or things like that. But we're exposed to these things
at a young age. And I remember being with another
guy and no thought, no anything, My body is just
(15:53):
like I just got an erection, and I remember tucking
it into my pants and making a joke about it
because he's another boy and he's going through p and
I'm like, oh.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
He'll get it.
Speaker 6 (16:01):
And instead he went to school and started a room
or that I touched myself around.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Him, and I didn't know what happened, and all of
a sudden, everybody was laughing at me. When I got
off the butt the next day, and this was my
good friend, and I was like, what's happening? And people
were and girls were laughing, and guys were laughing, and
they were calling me names, and luckily I had so
many friends that were girls. I said, what's going on?
And a girl whispered to me.
Speaker 6 (16:22):
And they said, he said that you were touching yourself
in front of him, and I was mortified because I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I literally was adjusting my eleven year old direction. And
here was this boy who knew that if you went
to school the next day and made fun of me,
that everybody would view him as more powerful or popular
or whatever it is. So at eleven years old, I knew, Boom,
men are not safe. Boys are not safe. Girls are safe,
(16:49):
and that's what we do.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
So that's in us, and every man has their own
version of that, their own experience. But that happens over
and over and over and over again in our lives.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
So much was just brought up in that I'm sitting
here thinking about, like, so, then what do we do?
Because you're bringing back a memory for me of working
in a treatment center. I worked in the eating disorder program,
but there's tons of different programs here. I worked with women,
but I was I started a men's body image group
because I was like, I think people might want to come.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
And little by little, one guy came.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Then the next week, three guys came, the next week
finally there's like ten twelve guys, which was a cap
And one of the guys said to me one day
because I was like, do you guys like want to
come here, like do we want me to keep doing this?
And he was like, Kat, this is the group and
these people are in its residential treatment, so they're in
groups in therapy all day long, all week long. He said,
I look forward to this group every week now. It
(17:43):
is the group that I feel the most safe. And
I don't necessarily know that that was because there's a
female running. It could have had something to do with that,
But I think the other thing is the group was
created to talk about things that weren't talked about in
their house, in their in their program, it was like
the women's issue. So that memory just got brought up
from me as you were talking, because they could have
(18:04):
been talking about that in their groups. They could have
been talking about body I mentioned in their group, but
obviously they didn't feel safe to do that because somebody
would have made fun of them, I'm sure, or made
a joke or said something or looked at them weird.
And in that group, nobody was doing that because everybody
had the same shared issue. So long winded way, what
are we supposed to do to help men feel safe
with other men? So then the women aren't exhausted and
(18:25):
the men actually can get their needs met.
Speaker 6 (18:27):
The two things that I can think of, one of
them actually is and unfortunately comes back to women. Yeah,
because women are not immune from the shaming response either.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It's really tricky.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
So, you know, Bell Hooks is, I'm sure you've read
writes about female misogyny and I don't believe it's intentional.
I'm sure there are some women that are absolutely misogynistic
because for a lot of reasons, right, But it's very
surprising how many quote unquote woke women actually have a
lot of their own internal misogyny. And what that looks
like is I think a combination a lot of things.
(19:00):
One is, we've all been raised the same way men
and women have been socialized in the same way. Women
have been socialized to view men in the same way
that men have been socialized to view men, and to
be themselves.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
So there is a part of many women, while they desire,
I believe vulnerability in a man, there's a part of
them that has been trained to be disgusted by it.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Well. Yeah, it's like in my head, I just thought,
like be vulnerable, but like not too much, Like I
want I want my partner to cry, but I don't
want him to be like two whiny and.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
What is that line, right? And that's a really tricky thing.
Speaker 6 (19:36):
Glennon Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility that
women have here and really this is a woman's conversation.
I can't have the conversation for women. What I can
tell women who are listening, assuming that most of your
listeners are women, is that be very mindful of the
moment a man opens up to you and your reaction,
because your reaction will train him whether or not it's
(20:00):
safe for him to open up. Because if he can't
open up with men, and he does finally open up
with a woman and the woman loses attraction or tells
him to man up, which has happened many times. Yeah,
you're creating a situation where a man literally has.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Nowhere to go. Now.
Speaker 6 (20:18):
I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, putting their
own women, but we have to start somewhere, and there's
nowhere for us to go. The idea of going to
a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for many men
who have never trained, Like, it's not going up and
hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into Mount Everest.
Talking to another dude calling another guy and being like,
(20:41):
hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist in our vocabulary,
which is why so many of us men go to
women and have made women are therapists. The difference is
how can women hold some of that without allowing that
boundary to be crossed so that they don't become the therapist?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And what ends up happening?
Speaker 6 (20:59):
As I've had I can't even tell you how many
messages I have from men who have watched that Ted
Talker read the book now and have opened up to
women and had and the women have rejected them. It
just happens all the time, and not even the woman's fault,
because the woman has been told this part of a
man if they do this, the guy's a pussy, that
guy's of this, that guy's he's weak and he and
then what do we tell women that a weak man
(21:21):
can't protect them?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Why? Because women need to be protected from who from men?
Speaker 6 (21:27):
So it goes back to it's it's it's like, I
have so much empathy and compassion especially for women here
because it's not your fault. You need a strong man
to protect you from other men. So the idea of
vulnerability when it comes into the equation. It makes women
feel unsafe in this strange way. And so what I
would ask is, like, read Bell Hooks, Read Glenn and
(21:49):
Doyle's book, Read Untamed about especially her chapter I think
It's Boys where she talks about it. See if you
can push past that initial response and hold it for
a moment, and then let's like not train our men
like the Pavlov style to run away from vulnerability. The
second piece of this is it's not just to snap
your fingers and men can create safe faiths for men,
(22:11):
but the only way it will start to work is
if there are super badass strong men who are willing
to start to be vulnerable, which is why I personally
believe if we were to slip the idea of these
masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Bravest man sure, like, great, you trained, you go, you
run into a burning building and save people's lives. Awesome?
Speaker 6 (22:36):
But can you run into the burning building of your
depression and share that with another man? I would argue
that the emotional bravery is true bravery.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
We we're talking about something that Berne Brown used to
talk a lot about in the beginning of herself too.
Is the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being
the kind of person who will run into a burning
and building, and courage is the kind of person who
will show up with their whole heart. That's what you're
talking about. And I think that's really important because I
mean that last part you said about like women need
(23:09):
men to be manly, masculine and strong and all of that,
because we need men to protect the whole cycles like
we need those men to protect us, but we need
those men to protect us because of the whole thing.
And the first yes, it's wild to me, which also,
(23:35):
this is one of my favorite quotes that I've pulled
from your book.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
And I might not say exactly correct.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
But you said something, Okay, great, so it was in
the body of a chapter. It's my favorite chapter so far.
But you said something like looking strong is in a
way to be strong, but a way to avoid being weak.
And I think that that's kind of what you're talking
right here. Like the person that runs into a burning
building to save somebody, that person looks really freaking strong,
and maybe they are in some aspect, but like, what
(24:02):
are are you doing that to look like a man?
Because you feel like you have to because of X,
Y Z or or why are you even doing that?
And then in your life and your relationship, in your
job and whatever, are you able to show up? Are
you able to run into the burning building of the
conflict that you guys have exactly?
Speaker 6 (24:21):
And and let's be mindful of course, because firefighters and
you know, police officers, right, you know, of military folks,
that is extreme bravery. It is and I don't want
to say like one is more important than the other,
but what you find oftentimes is is, uh, these professions
are professions, and they're high risk professions. But we've been
(24:43):
taught as men and boys as a young age that
those are the professions that equate to a certain masculine status,
like those are the heroes.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Right. So there's always this i think unmet need of
wanting to grow up and be and be seen as
that we're told to take physical risks. It hurts us
and it it kills us, and it also is the
thing that makes us brave because that young boys were
taught you're a boy, you're a man.
Speaker 6 (25:06):
Physical risks, take them, so you grow up and you
become these these these professions, these you know, responders, these heroes,
But can we also do that in our personal life,
which is what you're saying, and that cycle of like
training men that this is what it's this is what
it means for you to be a man, this is
this is the type of job this is. You know,
(25:27):
it's like we have freaking calendars of firefighters because women
like google at them because they're sexy in uniform and
they risk their lives and all of these things. But
like are they talking about their feelings? Are they depressed?
Are they what therapist's office are they in? You know, Look,
there's just there's so.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Much repressed anxiety and fear and frustration.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
That so many of us men are walking around with
that we don't have an outlet for so so it
goes into our work, It ends up as work addiction,
It goes into us taking more physical risks and we
don't have any place to put it.
Speaker 5 (26:00):
And you're helping kind of end that cycle. So I
do want to say thank you because I think that
when you were saying, like, we actually do need strong
men that are willing to take the risk to do
this to show up because somebody has to start, Like
somebody has to start and that brings me to my
very favorite quote of all time, and so Margaret me
quote and she said, never doubt that a small group
of committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's
(26:21):
the only thing that ever has. And that's one of
the reasons I was like, I need to talk to
you because literally what you're doing, like you're starting with
these conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk and
then you're writing this book and it started with a
lot of what I'm hearing, a lot of women actually
leaning into the work you're doing. And then from that
then men are actually being invited in. And so you
start your one person who has started kind of like
(26:44):
a huge shift. And I don't know if it feels
huge to you, but it's huge, like it really is.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Appreciate it. It's a I don't know.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
I always try to go back to the one person,
the one man, And every day I'm getting a few
of these one men who are writing sayings something or
saying that it shifts something, you know, And I get
to keep having these moments every day where it's like
it is working, it is helping, it is making a difference.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Our society focuses.
Speaker 6 (27:09):
So much on mass change, like mass impact how many people?
It's like we grow up right now, it's like, not
enough to affect one person, you have.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
To affect millions or what are you doing with your life?
Speaker 6 (27:21):
And that's not at all especially being raised in the
buy of faith, that's not at all our view. It
gods all back to how to be a humble servant
and affect that one person.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
So even in this world where.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
Yeah, I have millions of followers and all of these
types of things, it's about the one man because that
one man at any given point in time is interacting
with how many women on a daily basis? How many
other men? How many you know? Does he have children?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
This is how we change the world. You have to
do that. You have to So it's very tricky, it's confusing.
I still struggle with it.
Speaker 6 (27:53):
It's still hard for me to reach out to other
men because then when you get to a point when
you're known as that kind of person, you're like, you know,
all these men look up to me.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, now even in my.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
Group of friends, it's like a how do I tell
them that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all
of these things, you know, because we're never immune to.
It's why I wrote the book as a student, as
a teacher, So yeah, it's all in us. It's it's
my socialization is in me. So I could be writing
a book and giving ted talks and talking about these
things and yet still struggling to call my friend if
I'm struggling with something, and that's that's just being human.
(28:27):
Like we don't just reach the other side. It's a
constant daily practice.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, So
I get that as therapists should I.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
Agree, But I get I that all that you're saying
is like, yeah, I struggle every day with stuff, and
I have to go get myself checked out. And I
have to make sure that I'm like staying in line
with what my beliefs are, and I have to make
sure that I am getting help and feedback because as
somebody who like you're in a helping profession. Now, as
somebody who's helping others, you've got to check yourself. So
(28:57):
I just wanted to wrap all this up once say thing,
thank you for all of what you're doing. I will
promise at one point I will finish the book.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
But I really don't want to well.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
But the good news is if I don't, you now
have a podcast, which is awesome. I listened to Matthew
McConaughey's episode this morning while I was getting ready, So
that was really really interesting and good. Yeah, but so
many of those episodes have been awesome. So if you
guys that are listening are hearing something, you're like, I
need more of this, Like you've already heard me talk
about his book, But go get the book and listen
(29:28):
to the Man Enough podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
And where else can they find and hear you?
Speaker 6 (29:31):
Social media the love hate relationship I have with it,
But yeah, social media, but I think the Man of
Podcasts is a great It's a great place right now.
You're gonna love this as a therapist. I just had
a deep conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
With my dad.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
Oh well, just so you know, I already listened to it.
I listened to it last week. I think when it
came I don't know if it was when it came out.
I listened to it on road hip.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
It was last week. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (29:51):
Yeah, and we're just we're trying to go there. My
wife's coming on, my wife. We just had my wife
on coming on next week. We have an amazing. Amazing folks.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
The conversation you had with your dad was honest, like
it was good, and what you have done is modeled.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Because I think a lot of people, especially.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
When I'm in therapy with them, I'm like, we're talking
about how to have some of those conversations that you had,
and it's so like people can't even imagine it.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
What do you mean?
Speaker 5 (30:15):
I'm gonna be honest with my dad and tell him
how he hurt me, but also to say thank you.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Like what do you mean?
Speaker 5 (30:21):
And you're giving like an example of what that can
look like.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
And I think that's awesome.
Speaker 6 (30:26):
We need examples right now. We just unfortunately have so
few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I mean
there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and I
and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz calls
me on it.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
You know, I have a female co host, and that's.
Speaker 6 (30:41):
Part of this process is we have to be willing
to make mistakes. And men don't like making mistakes, especially
publicly or admitting we don't know the answer. And a
huge part of this and why I'm doing it, is
just to show that, like we can stay in the room,
like you can be told you're wrong and you could
be hold you are sexist or chauven and stick and
it doesn't mean that you're a bad per person, doesn't
mean that you're all bad.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Yeah that part.
Speaker 5 (31:04):
We can stay in the room what you just said, Like,
we can mess up and be almost called out to
an extent or approached or confronted and we can still
be good people, Like we can stay in the.
Speaker 6 (31:15):
Room with handfled you. It's not it's over for you
because you're yeah, could you make a mistake.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It's oh shit, I made a mistake. I didn't think
of it that way. I'm sorry, Boom.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
It's amazing, right that we can be human beings and
be messy and messed up and still have the opportunity
to be friends or.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
So that's that's what we're working on.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
And I you know, I'm grateful for folks like you
that are doing this work, that are trying to get
the message out.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And if you're a man listening to this, just know that.
Speaker 6 (31:43):
Or if you're a woman listening to this and you
want your man to listen to this, and now you're
a man listening to this, just know that you have
an ocean of depth in you, and you are so
much more than what the world has put on you.
And the feelings and thoughts and dreams and sensitivities you
(32:04):
have don't make you less of a man.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
They make you more of a man because they make
you a human.
Speaker 6 (32:08):
And at the end of the day, our job as men,
I believe, is to figure out how to be the
best human beings we possibly can. And that starts with
like using these ideas of what it means to be manly,
to be masculine, and going in and going deep and
getting comfortable and the uncomfortable, and exploring who we are
as individuals and showing.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Up and staying in the room. And I appreciate you listening.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
Okay, that was beautiful, So if you are anybody listening
to that, rewind that and listen to it again.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
That was amazing.
Speaker 5 (32:38):
So we're going to end on that because that was
a good way to kind of close it out.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
So thank you for being here.
Speaker 5 (32:42):
And yeah, everybody listening, you can follow us at at
You Need Therapy podcast, get the book, listen to the
podcast Man Enough, Man Enough podcast, and thank you for
being Thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
We all need therapy.
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.