#154 - Joy Williams on going solo, her band The Civil Wars and touring Adele

Joy Williams was a member of the Grammy-Award winning duo The Civil Wars. She is about to release her 2nd album since the group called it quits called "Front Porch". She talks about their six year run and her solo career before and after the group. She also talks about writing with Taylor Swift and touring with Adele. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Episode one four with Joy Williams. And we
were talking beforehand. I was like, okay, just hit record
because I don't know you. That's a good question. We
were talking. You and I were talking about you said
you're toward, but you're touring whenever. Right when you have kids? Yeah,
right when I had Poppy, I did it was I
did that in the Civil Wars somehow. It was like

(00:22):
found out I was pregnant and like on a fifty
city tour like two days in and I was like, cool,
that sounds fun. So I went on the road and
played gigs till I was literally nine months pregnant and
played Bonaroo and then had my son like a week later.
You played nine months pregnant? Yeah, I sure did. What
is it like? And this was a question that I
had for Carrie Underwood was that she was singing her

(00:42):
brains out eight to nine months pregnant. And I was like, man,
don doesn't make you have to pee like it makes
you have to do a whole lot of things, Bobby,
But and peing is one of them. But and like
hyperventilating is also one of them, because you as the
baby grows, it just rests on your like all your
organs and it's and they moved up coinci your ribs
actually expand. So it's a weird thing to be um

(01:04):
singing that pregnant. But I was like we had just
said a minute ago. Somehow I tend to make people
and uh and music all the same time, So it
seems to work out that way. You like having babies, Um,
I like the people. I don't enjoy the pregnancies. I
don't have easy ones. No, I have like the twenty
four hour a day sickness, like like throw up if

(01:26):
I stand up kind of vibes. And I was doing
that on on the road with Miles he's now six
and a half. And then um, I was just like
laid out with Poppy, she's now five months pregnant. It
was like it was brutal, but again I was like, well,
surely I'll get over this at some point in time.
All this nausea. We ended up going in the studio
and I was three and a half four months pregnant,

(01:48):
and I thought, you know what, this all this nausea
is going to make me really really honest. So how
I sang. I just sat on a stool and saying
because I was like, I can't. I literally can't try.
There's no need to. I just need to show up
and try and tell the truth was all this music
and you know, and I I was like, screw trying
to be perfect, because it doesn't it doesn't really exist anyways.

(02:11):
So I just sat there and sang and we just
pressed record and it was like full performances and it
just felt right that way. I think I used to
be used to be like, oh, it has to be
just so, but it doesn't work that way from me anymore.
Life's handed me my ask too many times, you know
what I mean. I'm such a big fan and until
today we hadn't met. We had talked on Instagram a

(02:32):
little bit. I think the first time that we had one,
I think I was tagging your music. I'm a big
fan of your music, um, Civil Wars and in the
new stuff too, especially, And that was while Dancing with
the Stars was happening, and we're like in your trailer,
just like waiting, that's right. That's when the music started
to recome out again. That's what I associate because I
would listen to it. I was getting no sleep on

(02:54):
that show, and bet you and I would play the
Trouble with Wanting right, And I would play that over
and over on a loop, just trying to get any
sleep in my trailer because it would calm me down.
So my music put you to sleep. I only listen
to slow music. That's it. That's it, like all my music.
I think my most played song right now for like

(03:17):
the last two years is Everybody Hurts from r M.
I've literally was just talking about that song today, like
that's my tempo. Yeah, my, that's my speed too. I
remember the where were you the first time you heard it?
I remember seeing the video the first time, him walking
across the top of the cars, and so I had
to be Mike. If you look at what year that was,
I'm thirty eight, so I was probably so, yeah, we're

(03:39):
not too far away from each other age wise. And
I remember going that's and I remember losing my religion
and I was a fan, but I was like, this
is the craziest video I've ever seen. So I remember
watching it on tell of it. I don't remember where
I was, but I do remember it seeing it. I
remember sitting in my um. One of my best friends,
her older sister, was like an R e M fan,

(03:59):
just like freak fan and um like play just playing
it over and over in her room. And I just
remember laying on this like really terrible beige carpet and
hearing that song and just being like, oh my god,
I feel like he wrote that song for me. I
still feel like that song is written for me. I know.
That's where music is so good is when it it's
like it's that um, it's that connective thing. It doesn't
even matter how old the song is. I mean, there's

(04:21):
so many great songs like that in the history of music.
But I just, man, I love that you mentioned it today.
When was it for you that you heard a song
or an artist and you went, oh, they're actually speaking
for me, because John Mayer was the first one to
do it for me. I was going to ask you
that that's what John Mary would be for you. Yeah,
when I heard, um, what's the there's three or four

(04:47):
songs from Continuum, what's the song I have downstairs? Now?
My mind my mind is slept, and I have written downstairs. Yeah,
stop this training. Thank you? Aren't you glad you have him? Know?
What would you do without it? I have? And because
John Mary's about our age and the lyric is, I'm
so scared of getting older. I'm only good at being young.

(05:07):
And the first time I heard, I was like, oh
my god, that's how I feel. Like, like everything that
I was doing, I was ahead of the curve doing it.
But I thought, when I'm normal age, I'm not gonna
be good at this anymore. I'm only good at it
because I'm young. Do you think that's why you're such
a like? It seems like everything you do you go
so full on. It's amazing to me, like how much
you're able to accomplish, and like what you are able

(05:29):
to do, and like, have you always been wired that way?
That's kind of you to say joy, but I don't.
I'm not kissing your ass. I'm just saying, like you,
I don't even know how you sleep, like you've actually
known a lot. But I think it comes from having
to survive as a kid. You know, I didn't have
a mom. I have a dad. My mom was a
drug addict and so I'm really young, right, yeah, and
really young and she died in her forties. But I

(05:52):
had to you know, work to eat at Yes, your hustle,
that hustles like in your veins, normal and people be like,
how do you do it? And I'm like, well, it's
how do I not do it? Is maybe more of
your question. And we were talking before you came in.
You were like, man, when you're gonna slow it? And
I'm like, I don't know how. Yeah, and I have
to because I have a girlfriend. I'm not married. I like,
I get quite lonely. That's why I listened to listen

(06:16):
to That's why I listen to some songs that keep
you company and so but I think that's what it is. Yeah,
but okay, what about you? You can't talk to? The
question when was the first the first either song or
artists that you heard, and you went, oh, not only
do I like the music, but like that actually is
my voice? God? I mean I was. I grew up
in a really really conservative household, so like what I

(06:37):
was able to listen to is really really regulated, which
is why when I got my driver's license, I was like, hell, yes, um,
But I would say that I remember this might sound odd,
but I remember it hearing Billie Holiday saying for the
first time and being like, oh my god, this, this
amazing soul is coming out of my speakers, Like where

(06:58):
did this person come from, Like what is her story?
How do I like? I mean, I would I would
spend hours trying to emulate how she's saying, which it's
almost impossible to do. And like the lilt and the
like the squeak and the cracks and the breaks, was
like how she sang everything. Um, it just arrested me.
And I know that that's not like a super cool

(07:20):
I mean, I I think she's cool. I think she's amazing,
but like it wasn't like an age appropriate, you know
what I mean. I was sixte or seventeen. It's not cool.
It's really cool to be yeah, I mean, and I
was like sucked into the vortex of boy bands, just
like any other high school kid was too. But but
like when I was home by myself, like I would
put on Billie Holiday, I just felt like the ache

(07:42):
of what she was singing, no matter if it was
happy or sad, it was just like it always had
this tinge of sadness and I just felt, I don't
know somehow that that melancholy and telling the truth and
it being like all kinds of like dysfunctional, and I
mean the the like the song she's saying, they weren't Um,
they weren't like always walks in the park, like she

(08:02):
talked about really really terrible relationships and she I don't know,
I just loved how ballsy she was, and then being
so rebellious to sing something like strange Fruit was pretty
life altering when I realized what that song was about. So, um,
I don't know. I love ferocity, I love quiet rebellion,
and I think that that's that's probably where where that

(08:25):
first like hit me the first time with Billie Holiday?
Where did your em come from? Where's my emo? Uh?
I've kind of always been that way, but I think Okay,
a black sheep of the family, um Blake, I would say,
be like on the on the sort of like um
astrological signs, etcetera, etcetera. If you're into that kind of stuff,

(08:49):
I'm I am. I am, like, I'm halfway into that
stuff can be halfway in I am. So I guess
I think I think it's really fascinating. I'll just say that.
And I'm a triple Scorpio, so like in multiple houses
like my son Moon and all that stuff, I'm Scorpio.
And so I guess apparently we're always we're always like

(09:10):
going around in the dark and like lifting up every
like what's underneath this rock and what's underneath this rock?
So I've always kind of been that way. I don't
know if it's the stars or if it's just um
the way I was raised to I always I was
always the kid that was like kind of taking the
emotional temperature of everybody in my family. So I don't know.
How about you. I don't know that I'm emo. I

(09:33):
don't think you. I mean, I'm not terribly emo, how
she says while she's wearing all black, I should take
it back, Oh my god. And again, I'm so drawn
to your music because it does feel very emo, at
least to me. Emo in what way though? Emo? And
there's always just an emotion to your voice and your lyric.

(09:55):
It doesn't always have to be I'm going to lock
myself in my closet. But nope, I haven't written that
song either. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't have to be the
emo side of it. But your music, I don't ever
listen to your music and go in your music now
or your music with Civil Wars and go oh well,
that's just just just a fun song for the time
to pass by. That's never happened to me. But the

(10:17):
single one of you guys, and you know even Front Porch,
which is is that the last one that you put out. Yeah,
it's not even out yet. It comes out, it comes
out there, it's out. The song is out. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
sorry I was. I was like, she's lying, and I
know it's out because I love to do it all
the people like Honey that is on Spotify. Yeah, no, no, no,

(10:39):
the record. Sorry when you say front Porch, I think
because it's the title track to the album. Yeah, the
song front Porch is also out. Play a little bit
of this and so when I hear this, there's an
emotion to everything that you do. That's why I ask.
I don't again, I don't ever there's not a chumba
womba in the mix of your songs. I think there
should just only ever be one chumbawamba. Okay enough, but

(11:01):
U but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I love
I love the art of conversation. I love sitting across
the table like this and hearing stories. And I think
that's what makes music so special to me, is that
you get the chance to tell a story and you
have to be really, really concise you know, have you
put the video out for that yet? It's so good.

(11:22):
It's like, I know I've seen it. Yeah, I I
messaged you because I don't ever watch anything early. But
I'm such a big fan, dude, I said, we sent it.
We sent it. I'm so glad you like it. It's
so good. And I don't give a crap out video.
I tell my friends and like, don't waste some money
on a video that's amazing. Well, this was not a waste.
I'm so I'm seriously so stoked about this music video

(11:43):
coming up. When does it come out? Because by the
time people hear this and maybe out, well it's not
going to be out by the time. Maybe it's it's
going to be right around the time. Well people listen
for years, don't Yeah, I don't know. If I tell you,
we have to kill you. But February it's going to
be coming out in the spring. Yeah, okay, yeah, so listen.
I can't tell you that weird people will listen to
this thing for years and years. These podcasts are evergreen,

(12:04):
So so no pressure, Bobby, I'm up. You know who
messaged me about that's because I I don't put a
lot of songs on my Instagram maybe a couple of
weeks and I put that up I think last week,
UM in a clip and Buzzby message me yeah, and
he was like, I love this song. And I guess

(12:25):
Emily Shackleton, yes, who writes for him. I wrote it
with you, Yeah, and Liz Rose too. We sat we
literally sat in UM at Lizz's house and it's like,
there's like this mov there's mob room in her house
with a big window. And it was nighttime and we
showed up when we drank red wine and I was
I was talking to her about you know, I come
back from Venice Beach after making the record Venus, which

(12:48):
is the one before this, and it was totally like
a sonic experiment for me. I just had to get
out of Nashville, had to get a way to clear
my head and get out of town after the Civil
Wars imploded and um, and plus my dad was passing
away from cancer and at the time, and so I
wanted to be closer on the West coast where he was.
So I was like, well, move to l A and
do that. UM. But after my dad passed away, it

(13:10):
was kind of and I made the record. I was
kind of like, I just want to go home, and
it was weird. I'd never talked about Nashville as if
it was home. That had always just been like I
grew up here in California. But something changed when my
dad passed, and I just was like I miss my
I missed my people, and I missed my house. And
so we came back and I started writing slowly but surely,
you know, And when Liz and Emily were available to write,

(13:33):
we sat in that room and I just said, you know,
what I feel like in my life right now, what
I'm what I've been going through is that, um, I'm
really starting to understand that the simple things in life
are sometimes the most beautiful ones. And I've spent so
much of my life like looking ahead to whatever was
next and then what's after that and what's after that?
And I said, I really feel like what I'm learning
is to like enjoy just simply where I am. And

(13:58):
and that's like a bub in the you know, in
the SuDS while I'm doing the dishes that has a
rainbow in it, or like you know, like the the
like hurricane that my house looks like because my kids
have been playing and stuff like that, and and I said,
so I think there's a simplification that I really feel
like it's happening not only for me in my life,
but I want I want to go back to a
simpler sound than I did Venus. And I said, and

(14:20):
I've been, you know, been talking about like, if I
can't play it on the front porch, it's probably not
for me. And Liz in her like salty voice, was
just like, well, have you've written a song called front Porch?
I was like no, And then it just flowed out.
It was so easy to write. And those are like
that you sometimes you have to wrestle the bear, but
that one, it was just it just kind of flowed

(14:41):
right out. Yeah, play a little bit more of that fun,
come on back to the portch this new project. If
three songs out, yes, I'll play one more. This is Canary.
I mean these songs. I've played these songs so many times.

(15:03):
I how do you kidding they're are? Because I keep
about fifteen songs on my current playlist and I'll rotate
them in an outlet, all three of these. But it's
just like you you are my style of music. Well, thanks,
like sing it slow, It's good well, it's like I
think it's fun too. It's it's like it's like the
French way, you know, it's like how do you how

(15:26):
do you take a few things and like and really
make it sing? And you know, I'm not I like
listening to music that has like a ton of elements
to it, but that's just the more the more stuff
I add to the music I'm making, I feel like
the less it means something at least to me where
my voice somehow it just changes. So I don't know,
it was I was just kind of like, all right,

(15:47):
what happens if I just remove almost everything except like
really really what's necessary and what's there? So it's it's
like it's it's not just a singer songwriter record and
that it's like just a guitar and vocal. You know,
we have a lot of instrumentation, but the whole process
in the in the time in studio with Kenneth Patt
and Gale who produced it with me, Um, you know,

(16:07):
I was, I was like, my requirement for all these
players is that they be empathetic players, because like I
just needs to be like smatterings. It doesn't need to
be like just blazing up a track, and it was
really fun in studio making the music. It was like
I've never laughed harder. And we recorded fifteen songs in
five days and it was like the most effortless experience,

(16:29):
and it was it was just it was just so
much fun. I'm talking a lot. I must you know
what this is? What this is for? Oh? Yeah, right,
this is this is what you get paid to do.
You you mentioned your dad. Was he a pastor? He
was what what denomination was it? He well, it's kind
of an interesting thing, like he'd probably have been like
under the moniker of like Presbyterian, but he he was ordained,

(16:53):
so he would joke that he could marry and bury people. Um.
But what he did was he actually he worked on
Capitol Hill and then worked for IBM, and then got
really disenchanted like with everything about all of that. Yeah. Yeah,
he was a good human, Yeah, and he was just
like I don't I don't want to do this anymore.

(17:14):
And so what he ended up doing was he'd already
had his ordination like a long time ago. So what
he wind up doing was being the executive director of
like a bunch of Christian retreat centers. So it was
it was an interesting thing like grow I grew up
in Santa Cruz, I was. I lived a couple other places,
like in the Midwest and the East Coast and then
but out to Santa Cruz before I was ten, And

(17:35):
it is always like the weirdest paradox. I grew up
in this like like faith based kind of retreat center,
like in the middle of Santa Cruz County, which is
just like like fly that freak flag, like like the
smell of weed permeating every part, like tied all over
the place. And I don't know, I feel like that
was a really um fun way to grow up, but

(17:57):
it was also kind of confusing at times. But um,
but yeah, so my dad was my dad, Like uh,
I didn't have a church that he was like the
head of, but he he was in charge of like
a hundred plus employees like at this conference and retreat center.
Did you feel like a pastor of kid A thousand
percent A thousand percent kid, Yeah, there's a pressure. And

(18:20):
I had friends that were the preacher's daughters, your sons.
Was that did you feel that? Yeah, I'm nodding on
a podcast, Joy say yes, Um, yeah, I totally did.
I mean it was it was sort of like, hey,
everybody's watching, like like, don't suck this up, you know.
And and I I think for a long time I
kind of went by that whole like gold Star Moniker

(18:41):
of like I will show you how great I can be.
And you know, I think life has a funny way
of of making you like check that at the door
and um, and I think the Civil Wars was one
of those one of those moments um for me too
of just like, well, that didn't go nearly the way
that I thought it was going to. But um, but

(19:01):
you know what, I don't know, the more I go
in life, the more I go, you know what, you
can get hard and bitter about all that stuff. Um,
when things don't go your way or when you lose,
but or you can it can make you kinder. And
that's that's what I'm that's at least what I want
to hope that I can become more like no matter
what happens to me, I feel like in the same

(19:24):
you know kind of world that you speak of. It
it's made me more empathetic and more understanding. And I
don't know if I'm able to be kinder or not,
but I'm more understanding. Yeah, that's a good way of
saying that, Bobby. Yeah you've man, you've been through it.
We've listen, We've we've all been through it. You know,
we have our own crap in all different ways. I'm
a big believer that my crap is any more important

(19:46):
or different than anyone else's. But I think that there
are parts that I can understand. And I don't think
it makes me a better person. I don't even know
if it makes me kinder. I just understand that struggle. Yeah,
you get the pain. Yeah, you get the pain, that's
for sure to geta And people may look and go,
what a dick he doesn't even understand. Yeah. So I
don't know that I'm a good person in a lot

(20:07):
of ways, but I think i'm a wonderful person another
And I think we're just right at this meeting. We're
always trying to find that meter. Yeah, I think we're
all just I think that's partly. I mean, that's funny
that you say that, because I say a lot all
we want to do is just be seen and appreciated
and love for who we actually are, not the facade
or like what we can give other people. It's like Hey,

(20:27):
if you can see me and appreciate me, that's like
a great starting point. And I feel like that for everybody,
you know. I tell my son that that's how we
like we get to approach life and just people in general.
It is like there's always something you can learn from
every single person you meet. And um, everybody just wants
to be loved and seen and appreciated. And you know,
it's funny you say, preachers Are you a preacher's daughter?

(20:49):
Whose actually wrote a song on my record that's called
preachers Daughter? And yeah, and and I think it's in
a similar vein of like just wanting to be seen
and known and loved and um and what that looks like.
And that's hard sometimes in family to feel that, um,
you know, putting the phone and dysfunction um that we
all have. But I don't know. I think it's it's

(21:11):
important to own where we are, you know. And and
I think asking the questions it's really important as opposed
to just like racing into some kind of like foe answer.
So the one of my friends, I said, hey, Joy
Williams coming over, and he was like, ask her if
it's true. I guess there's I didn't know this. There's
an urban legend that you learned to sing by hearing

(21:31):
animals and you start to harmonize with animals. Um no,
but I really want that to be true. I'm sure
you've heard that. You haven't heard that Bobby who is
your who are your friends? At someone in music and
he said, he said, this is what I heard, because
he said you as a kid, he would have walked
through the woods and like birds would be, you know, charping,

(21:51):
and that you would harmonize with the birds. And that's
how your boy sounds like it is. Oh my god,
I love the story. They're not like Dr Doolittle, no
meat snow white. No, I'm totally not. I wish I
really wish I was. I mean, there's the only thing
that's true about that is that I would walk through
the forest. We were like poorest church mice when we
lived in Michigan. Right when I was growing up in
my my mom would uh take just get us out

(22:15):
of the house. I think she was just like, I
cannot handle my children, so we would just get out
and go on nature walks. But it's actually my mom
that taught me how to harmonize because she, um, she
was a singer as well. But um but I really man,
I should just I'm gonna keep it and I'm getting
I'm not. I'm going to go with this. And that's
where Canary came from. In Low and Low those many

(22:38):
years when I was working in the coal mines, I
thought to myself, I'm gonna write a song about canaries.
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as a kid, I guess why did you start singing?
Because you did Christian music for a while. There are

(24:52):
things I didn't know. I don't know you'd want so
many awards, like I guess I don't keep up with
that stuff, want so many awards. I don't know you
want all the double or any need. I won zero
of Wikipedia because and I hate just doing the Wikipedia
thing because it lies about me too. There's all kinds
of crap wig, but is it not true? But what
it does do is it gives you those graphs. And

(25:14):
so I scrolled the graphs and I saw all the doves. Yeah,
I guess I thought you want no once a bridesmaid
or always a bridesmaid, never bride that one. Um, yeah,
I got nominated and did I was in that genre
for a long time. I mean I started at seventeen
because it wasn't that long, but when you're not young,
it can feel that long. But yeah, I just I
felt like, um, I felt like my world view just

(25:35):
started shifting a whole lot. I just couldn't keep doing it.
So I actually asked out of my record deal at
basically the peak of my career at that point, which
is you can imagine how well that went over. Um,
but I just couldn't do it anymore. So I actually
left and sat on my couch for like a good
solid six months and then worked at a friend's boutique

(25:57):
in Green Hills, getting size, different sizes shirts for various
country stars. Yeah. Yeah, I was working at a shop
called Habit and Um, and I was selling ads for
a music magazine and then got called back by some
of my friends that were making music and asked if
I could start writing for them, and I was like, oh,
I can do this. I do like this, and then

(26:19):
got a pub deal and then I started writing jingles
for TV and film And that's how that's that's where
the seedbed of all the money that my husband and
I and Nate were able to put into the Civil
Wars because we fully funded that ourselves. And yeah, and
and the rest. They say it's history. Okay, let me rewind.

(26:39):
Could you said something that I want to go back to.
You used to get shirts for country singers? Yeah, who
would come into the store. Um I would um am
I allowed to say this. I don't want to be like,
I guess there's nothing they used to shop because they're
like a hippo law. I don't know. I just like
I remember Faith Hill would come into the store a lot.

(27:00):
She was always really sweet. Reba came in one time. Um. Yeah,
there was a bunch of there was a bunch of
artists that would come through and imagine like imagine if
you will, like you know, I've been on the road.
I've done this for a while. Not in country obviously,
but I'm sitting I'm sitting there being like in your
total is just being like what is happening to my life?

(27:20):
And it was twenty three but it was really good
for me because I think I started so young that
I was really used to that that sort of like um,
the buzz of applause. I was really used to that.
I didn't realize how much i'd kind of been addicted
to that, and then it used to never done cocaine,
but it was like it was like I think I realized,
like I thought it was like a cocaine high when

(27:41):
it was really just like a diet coke buzz and
and it was really good for me to kind of
be like, yeah, I'm alright if I don't do music.
And then somehow, once I let it go, that's when
it as you know, as they say, like once you
let it go, it can come back to you somehow.
So it's weird. I've had many different chapters of making music,
you know, like faith based music and then leaving that

(28:02):
and then like TV film music and then um, you know,
um go into a songwriting camp. Um for that the
sir Letic Brothers started for this band called Gloriana. And
she winked at me when she said that you can't
you caldn't see that, you know, I used to date
Rachel that a little Bertie told me today actually um

(28:22):
but um. And then it was like a different life,
don't Yeah, I get it for sure. But and then
it was like the Civil Wars happened, and then back
to solo. So there's just been like lots of iterations.
But I guess that's how life works, you know, you
just don't quite know how it's gonna wind and bend.
Did you miss the applause? I didn't realize how much
I'd gotten used to it. So yeah, did you find

(28:45):
your love on? Because I have found that, like I
think on a stage when I do stand up or
which is so brave of you, my god, it's all
the same for any of us to go and expose
ourselves and go please love me, because that's basically what
I feel like I'm doing. It's like I'm walking out
there and your heart just like and I'm just like,

(29:08):
please love me, Bobby. But I think, yeah, whether it's
a stage or not, don't you think? But I think
I think for me, I've again like I've had when
the Civil Wars ended, I've been called every name in
the book, you know, I've like I've I've experienced the
heights of applause and like the matching tattoos that I've

(29:28):
gotten with you know, A level artists, and then I've
gotten the I've gotten the like, oh my god, I
can't believe that someone actually called me that they have
no idea what they're talking about and so I think
I remember someone saying at one point, if you believe
your good press, you're gonna have to believe all you're bad.
So I think I don't know. I was a lot

(29:50):
more that way up to the ending of the Civil Wars,
and then it was like, oh wow, kind of like
the everything I've been working so hard to like like me,
like me, like me, love me, love me, love me, Um,
it backfired And and I'm still breathing, And that's really
good to know. And I think it helped me UM

(30:10):
move forward at least in a different way. But it's
still it's really vulnerable to get up on stage, like
you hope people like what you make, otherwise you don't
have a gig. You know. It's like cooking as well.
Like I think music is a lot like cooking. It's
like it's fun to make it for yourself, but at
the end of the day, it's a lot more enjoyable
when it's shared and and and people are at the

(30:31):
table and like digging in. You know that that feels
a lot better to me, UM, But I can't control it.
And I think that's that's maybe the part that I'm
getting to is. I can't control it. All I can
do is just show up and make what I make,
not be too precious about it. Uh, take what I
do seriously, but not take myself too seriously, and and
just enjoy it. Like my god, if I'm not enjoying it,

(30:55):
why would I keep doing this? This is an insane lifestyle,
like a difference city every night, and like dragging my
kids all around the country. And there's a lot that's
great about it too, but but it's I think I've
been learning to sort of like slough off. Hopefully I've
been sluffing off the ship that I don't need anymore.
I am allowed to swearing here okay, and here bathroom,

(31:20):
so I speak French flute ly. Um yeah, so I
think that that's what I've been learning these last few years.
Um yeah. Where do you feel like you fall in
line with that? Like, do you feel like you're still
that's still like kind of like the like on the
edge of like, I really need you to like what
I'm doing right now. I feel sorry now I'm your psychologist.

(31:41):
M I feel like a fraud, don't we all? Yes,
we do, But I really like and I think I'm
running just barely ahead of that. I feel like I'm
committing crimes all over America. That's not really feel like.
And eventually the cops are gonna catch that's oh, you
can't sleepy. But I do feel like I don't really

(32:04):
have a talent, Like I don't. There's nothing that you
would look at me and go, he's really good at that?
Are you kidding me? I mean, are you actually being serious? Yes,
I'm being absolutely seriously yes. Um, like I'm literally looking.
I mean we're sitting here and I'm looking at two
books that you've written. Yeah, but again that's just I've
worked my way to those. I have friends. That is

(32:28):
a skill. I think I learned it, so you're a
quick learner. But it's also talent. So my fear is
if I can't work, I don't have anything really. Have
friends are great writers, They could take a year off
and come back and write amazingly in a year. Have
friends are great singers, are great things. And so for
me it's I don't have that. All I have is

(32:51):
and so I don't think I'm not good at anything.
So I feel like a fraud all the time, all
the time. Bobby, this is fascinating. I feel like we
could like like that would be a whole other podcast.
We can talk a and I only put these books
up so when pictures are taking to this place that
people see them where they buy them. This is this
is key marketing. Yes, that's how I pay the bill. Yes,
in your House is beautiful, so well done. I mean,

(33:11):
I think I get it. I mean I think we
all feel like if if every if people really knew,
would they really like us? But you know a great
singer right like you have? I am a singer. I
mean I'm glad you think I'm a great singer. I
love singing. I think you have the recognition to say
you get a great You could walk on the street
right now and open a case and seeing if people

(33:33):
would give you money. If I walk down the street
right now and pulled a microphone out what I do
in this show, people be like, hey, idiot, why are
you talking about microphone on the street? Dude? But you
like the thing that I find fascinating about you is
that you are literally like you have nine lives. It's
I mean, it's like you're like I'm gonna go on
a show and you know I'm gonna dance and like

(33:54):
I'm gonna win that thing. And you do like I
don't you say you like I don't have talent and
I'm just the worst dancer. Now the second word dancer,
but there are thirteen people are probably the twelve words dancer. Okay,
but still you have this like tenacity about you that's
so apparent and and it's and like I don't know
you you. I think maybe that sense of like I'm

(34:14):
a fraud might be what helps keep you humble because
you do so much stuff. For sure, it keeps me humble,
and it's not even humble, it keeps me normal is
because I and I think that's why I relate to
people that will listen to this podcast, will listen to
my show, to my shows, is that I have what
they have. Yeah, we like you're one of them one
percenters has this great, great singing skill. Us normal folks

(34:37):
don't really have anything dynamic about us. And so I
think people root for me because I am them. Huh,
And that's what I feel like. So I feel like
a fraud a lot of til you ask what is it?
It's people like you're so brave, Bobby, No, I'm scared.
There's a difference. Yeah, but you still jump. That's the thing,
because I have to jump because there's a big alligator
behind me. It's like, I'm gonna die one of the
two ways, right, So I'm gonna jump dynam blaze of glories.

(35:01):
That that's kind of what it did for me. So awesome.
I get it. But you're dying in a blaze of
glory makes for a good story. Maybe I will die
in a blaze of glory. It's not gonna happen anytime soon. Well, okay,
it's not about me. You can feel free to ask whatever.
But like, I only have like an hour with you, Oh,
I know, So I want to talk all about Let's
just listen to our music together. Let's play all of

(35:21):
our songs, and I want to have a listening party.
And when you plan, like, I like that one. I
like that. I like that one, and I like that one.
I would like that one. I like that one too.
So you moved to Nashville. Yeah, how old were you
while you moved to a teenager for high school? I
graduated high school. I had to legally emancipate myself from
my parents in order to sign my record deal. How
they feel about that? They were fine? They were like,

(35:41):
it's just a piece of paper. Um. Yeah, and moved
out here when I was eighteen, had two bags, had
two hundred fifty bucks in my pocket, dropped one bag
off at my then manager's house, and um and hit
the road for two hundred fifty days that year, and
then hit the road for another two hundred and twenty
days that next year. And um, it was literally singing

(36:02):
with like Mike and like like tracks like on like
on a disk, and talk about like jumping off a
diving board. That's going to grow you up real fast,
as is being on a bus with being the sole
female on a bus. Um at eighteen with a bunch
of dudes that will also grow you up quickquickly. I
had friends. I have a couple of friends that were
Christian artists for a while and they switched and they

(36:23):
went secular. Yeah, And I would ask them like, hey,
why did you change with one they said they could
play more places. Yeah. Like they were like, really, what
we could have somewhat the same message but played. But
they also felt like that they were running out of
things they could write about. Yeah. It's the only genre
of music that's determined by lyrical content. Really, Yeah, I

(36:44):
never thought of it because there are a Christian rapper,
but you know, there are a lot of Christian types
of music, but they're still considered Christians. Sure, sure, sure,
I just I just felt like what I believe shifted
so much I couldn't keep doing it. So it wasn't
as much about you were in a box about what
did feel that too, But it was also just like
I've gotta i gotta get out of here, like and

(37:04):
I'm going to do I mean to grab a few
things and keep them in my backpack as I go,
but a bunch of this stuff, like I just, um,
it didn't feel like it resonated anymore with me. And
I wanted the freedom to just write what I wanted
to write about. And it's funny, like you know, writing
writing a jingle for Oscar Myers was definitely an Oscar

(37:24):
Meyer was definitely not my um like goal in life.
But that was interesting that like doing that led like
led for me to go down the path of writing
for other people and then writing I felt like the
Civil Wars, it was so much writing about the dysfunction
of relationship and like the obsessive nature of relationships and
um and so and now like moving through having been

(37:47):
in that duo and writing those kinds of music. Now
it's kind of like I like turning the gem so
to speak, like about what does it look like to
be human? And how does it? How does love work?
How does it not work? Um? What does it look
like to like admit when things are really terrible and
then when things are actually like there there might be
like a ray of hope and and um and just

(38:08):
playing around. I play around on this record actually with
some like religious um like uh, I guess wording like
a religious verbiage, but I'm turning it kind of on
its ear and um, it's it's fun to play with
that stuff for me. The record comes out my third
we mentioned that again. I want to play this with
the jingle. Okay, here is here's you can set this up.

(38:29):
This is the Oscar Meyer jingle that you wrote. Yes called.
It doesn't get better than this. It doesn't get it.
It doesn't get it to make you laugh. Have you
heard in a while? No, this is I played every
day when you're like brushing your teeth every morning. Yeah, Um,

(38:53):
it's your sunshine wake up song. Um, you can really guy,
he hates you so much I giggled because that I
literally wrote it in an afternoon over the phone with
with somebody in l A named Tim Meyers and um
and and I got six digits for writing that song. Yes,

(39:18):
I had zero clue, had zero clue at the time,
but that was when like that was like the height
of TV film, Like I don't know what you could
gross like making back then. Um, but it's just so
silly to me that like writing songs that like was
backing Bacon and lunch Meat like became how I've how

(39:39):
I paid my bills and like fronted the half of
a duo that I, you know, my husband and I
financially like got off the ground. It's just silly how
life works. But no, it's I'm going to leave no, no,
but it's really But it is funny because I just
signed a deal and I think it'll come out next

(40:01):
week with the General Insurance with Shack with the little
guy the commercial you know that you know that he
did and out of what I would never sign with
someone that I didn't think it was good. Like at
the point in my career now where I can I
can almost pick the partners that I have. They've made
so much money. See, you could afford to take a

(40:22):
vacation right now. That's all I'm saying. I just went
to wife for three days. How is that? I worked
the whole time. It was American. I went in and
tape American. Oh my god, you're like it was great.
It was a vacation, vacation Like I went ahead to
the radio show tape Idle and Mike went and he'd
worked like an hour a day and go to the
beach and then just surf and then yeah, then I

(40:43):
would go work and try to mentor the kids. Yeah,
but you're pretty good at I'm all right, I'm okay,
I mean love it. I just tell him, I tell
him how to avoid being sucky. The title of your autobiography,
how to avoid being Sucky. That was what we were
going to go with, but it said went with bare bones.
Yeah that worked too. That worked too. Let's I didn't

(41:03):
realize as we get over to the Civil Wars. I
didn't realize again because I don't follow the awards so much,
that you guys have won so many freaking awards for
and and not, and that that didn't shock me. The
Grammys as much as the c m a S. Because
I never thought of you guys, and I hope it's
not an insult as a country duo. No, no, no,
neither did we. And it when we got sort of

(41:24):
welcomed into the fold, it was like, oh my god,
Like it was that moment where it's like they liked me,
they really liked me. It was it was amazing to
be invited into that community. And man, I lived in
Nashville a long time but not really felt like I
was in the fold of that. And we had a
good time. But I mean we were definitely like, you know,
we were the dark horses for sure. Um like when

(41:46):
all the names are you know, being announced, and it's
like clap clap, clap, clap clap, like up really award,
and it's like our name got called and it would
be like a lot less clapping because and no, no
offense taken. It was just we weren't well known in
that community. But but it would win. Yeah, and then
sometimes no, I mean if you win once, you would win,
that's a win. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose you want a couple, Um,

(42:09):
we just got nominated. You never want I like these grids,
and I think you guys want everything. I mean, I
let's go with that. You want four Grammy, Yeah, you
got you want the Best Folk Album, Best Folk Album, UM,
Best Performance by a Duo or Group. I think we
have here. I can look at my notes. I always feeling, yeah,
you tell me because I'm not great one and then
one for one for Safe and Sound that we wrote

(42:30):
with Taylor for the Hunger Games, Barton Hollow for Best
ball Album, Yeah, Best Country do our group before? Maybe
this is where the country I'm thinking of the country?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you did win a Grammy for
country for for Barton Hollow two thousand thirteen Best Songwritten
for Visual Media for Safe and Sound. Yeah, and then
two thousand fourteen Best Country from This Valley. Yeah. I
think that's what it was when I saw country in
the awards, because I did again, was a fan. Never

(42:51):
thought of you guys country yet neither did we. And
it wasn't that we didn't want to be. It's just
we we didn't think that we actually like classified under
the qualification of it. I mean we were in the
running with like a Little Big Town for some of
those and UM for the group duo performance, and and
we were like, well, surely they're going to get it,
so it was. We always felt surprised. I always felt
surprised anytime our name actually got called so um, but

(43:15):
I'm glad. I'm glad it did. They look nice on
my shelf and they're a good memory. Where do you
keep on? Um? We have a listening room in our
house that is um, there's like this old like flannel
looking very like Victorian looking swing, um, like almost looks
like a porch swing, but it's inside UM. And then
a whole wall of vinyl. The innate is obsessed with

(43:36):
like records, and then we have a record player, and
then there's like where the vinyl actually should go, because
now it's just like overflowed onto the floor where it's
now stacked. But um, there's for sort of like Cubbies
where you would stuck vinyl, but instead it's just prominently
placed and it's it's it's crazy to look up and
see those. It feels like an other lifetime. I go

(43:59):
to yeah, thousand present. So okay, let's talk about the formation.
You mentioned that you were able to make money to
actually finance at least the start of the Civil Wars,
So just kind of tell me that the birth of
the duo at that writing camp for um, for the
sir Letic Brothers trying to get a radio single for

(44:20):
a particular groups. Um, you can say, Gloriana, you write
anything for them. We did, but they didn't, I mean
not that they cut yeah yeah, um yeah. And so
we were in we were in a writing session and
it was almost like drawing straws. They were like, okay,
you you, you go in this room and right you
you and you go in this room and right you
union and then we'd like switch like it'd be like

(44:41):
two hour rites and then switched to like a writing
camp old school and um, first right of the day
was John Paul and and uh and a guy named
Greg Becker and and I just felt like i'd you know,
met a kindred spirit in John Paul and just the
writing was so easy and like we just started harmonizing
and it was it was just like I remember going
home and telling Nate like I think I met somebody

(45:03):
that I'm supposed to make music with, and you know,
and then like cuts you. Like a few months later,
we're all in our Nates in my black Honda Element
like driving down to Eddie's Attic and Decatur where John
Mayer would play back in the day and like recording
like the live board tape, recording that and then just

(45:23):
being like, why don't we just put it out. Let's
just see what happens, and then being like, wouldn't it
be cool if it got listened to, like fivemessbod be
so rad And then within the first week it had
like twenty five thousand listens and it just kept growing
and then we put out an EP and um, you
know a song got put on Grey's Anatomy in a
particular like you know, near the end, like the kind

(45:45):
of the big placement. Yeah, that was one of the
first somebody that actually has influence. Yeah, thanks were pretty good. Yeah,
I think so. I mean it's I can can tend
to be a blur looking back at that, there was
so much happening all the same time. Um, so poison
and Wine plays on Grayes Anatomy. Yeah, and it was
like here we go. You remember watching it go on?

(46:10):
Holy crap I do. And I've had other songs like
the Oscar Ryer jingle you know, and it was and
I've had other solo music of mine in that whole
era also get on Grays. So I had had a
relationship with the TV film supervisor for that show, and
and but they came, they came, I guess to discover
that music on their own and and and put it

(46:34):
into It's been really fun even now to see people
be like, oh wait, okay, so I used to listen
to you over here and then and then I discovered
the Civil Wars, and then I discovered it was you
like that that same girl I listened to. It was
the same girl it's in the Civil Wars. And then
I'm hearing that now her people are discovering the new
songs on Spotify and they're like, oh wait, that's the
girl from the Civil Wars, because nobody knew my name,

(46:55):
like when I was in the Civil Wars. So like
Joy Williams is not like that. That's not like a
like a one and done. People understand that that, you know,
that was half. I was half of that um in
terms of notoriety. But it's an interesting thing having had
that kind of notoriety and then to move into another
season where it's not starting over at all. But I

(47:18):
have so many different chapters of making music that there's
like kids who grew up listening to me making my
church music, and then you know, people who knew the duo,
and then people discovering the music for for the first
time now with what I'm making for their album Front Porch.
So it's it. There's so many different chapters. How would

(47:39):
you two decide who's saying what? That's what I would think, like,
I would always want to be wanted this thing to
freaking leave. Um was it? Was it? Ever? It was
never contentious about that until later. But um, like I
think I think for me, it just my memory of
it is that I mean, I love to harmonize, so

(48:01):
that just came so easily because you do exactly me
and the squirrels and um yeah. So it was like
I think a lot of times we'd come in to
a songwriting session and it would be like, hey, I
just watched this documentary you know, called Grey Gardens, and
I really want to let's let's write about that. And
it just depended on the day, like who would end

(48:22):
up taking the lead, Like if I found the melody
to something, that would generally be like I would take
the lead because that's the key that we had started in.
So we it was pretty fluid until it wasn't. What
was it like watching the crowds grow insane because it
was insane because you guys weren't together like twenty years.
It does all happened relatively quick in the live span. Yeah,

(48:43):
within five years time. Yeah, yeah, I mean it was
I remember we were on the road with another indie
act and the live at Eddie's Attic came out, and
which was the that board tape. I was just mentioning
and and we were going to cities we've never played,
and we were like first up and we would play

(49:04):
and people would be singing along and we've never been like,
we had nothing out besides that, and we've never been
to that city. And we watched that happened time and
time and time again until the person that was like
I'm supposedly like meant to close that the show was like,
why don't let's switch and that happened yeah, And and
I was I was like, what was this crazy? And

(49:26):
then getting the phone call that Adele wanted to take
us on the road that was that was like, oh
my god. And we've gotten the call like hey, come
play Leno, Hey, come play Letterman. Hey we're over in
the UK. Jules Holland wants you to play, and um,
and then getting the phone call that Adele was a
fan and wanted us to go on the road with her,

(49:47):
and us doing two tours with her, and like the
crowds just continued, and then writing with Taylor and we've
been friends, um and then getting to you know, make
music like that. It was just it was this. It
was lightning in a bottle. It really was. It was
kind of that classic phrases lightning in a bottle. But
gotta be careful with lightning in a bottle because that

(50:08):
can it can go away just as quickly as it came.
Did you guys play Jewels Halling? They've like, I've an
approached to kind of redo that show here, Really, what
do you think? I don't think I have the skill
set to do what Jewels does musically, like I play,
but he's proficient. He can sit down and really play.

(50:28):
And so BBC said, hey, we want to remake the
Jewels hall On show. We want you to be the
host and for those who don't know Jewels, he's talk
show versus and a musician and they'll sit down with artists.
And I like, I want to do a talk show,
but I don't know if I could do what he does. Um,
but I'm a big fan of what Jewels does. And
so when you say that, and I spent so many

(50:50):
hours just watching his show because they were like, I
want to recreate this in America, and I know they
went to another artist here and said, hey, who has
much bigger skill set? About how about bringing it over?
I don't want to run that thing, but it's like, um,
but yeah, I'm a big Jewel's Holling fan and rarely
doesn't want to bring up Jels Holland Yeah. I mean
it's in the UK. It's an institution and I and

(51:10):
I remember like watching it and just being like, man,
I want to play that one day and then getting
to and it was like Tony Bennett was on it. Yeah,
it was like it was crazy, like the names that
were there. I was like, what am I doing here?
From act to act like you're all you're all like
it's yeah, you're literally in the round and it's and
it's almost like it's it's almost like, um, Tony Bennett

(51:34):
next to Arctic monkeys, next to I mean like a
country act. Um, it was Laura Marlene and it was
Tony Bennett and um, crap, I'm forgetting the other one.
Please forgive me anyways, Um, but it was great. I
like sat over to the side and had a conversation
with Tony Bennett about creating and painting and and he
was just like the most fabulous human being. I was like,

(51:55):
what is happening to my life right now? You know?
It happened so fast? Are you so good at what
you do? And I'm not kidding, I'm not being facetious.
Are you so good at what you do that you
don't get nervous doing it anymore? No? I always get nervous. Really, yeah,
it's an indication that I care. I absolutely agree with that.
Now maybe not nervous. Okay, let me rephrase this, Okay,
but let me answer and then for a second, and

(52:18):
then if I still have an answer, that let me know,
because I would say that. Um, I feel like I'm
in a whole new chapter again, Like I'm I'm like
going back to music that um is more stripped down,
more roots, more maybe akin to what people are familiar
hearing me having been in the Civil Wars, but it's
a new iteration. And so I think, I think, yeah,

(52:41):
I know how to do this, but how do I
do this now? So that's It's like I know how
to be present. Um, I know how to um sing
when my voice is tired. Um, you know, I know
how to sing when I've had three hours of sleep
and a crying baby in the middle of the night
on a bus. You know I can do those things. Um.
I know how to just be like you know, you

(53:03):
guys don't even know what city. I mean, you know,
and and just like let down, so to speak. But
I always get nervous. But are you nervous that people
won't like what you're doing? Or you're nervous for example,
like if you go on leno or on a map,
would you get more nervous as the stage got bigger?
Or do you get more nervous at the stage gets

(53:23):
it's a new stage. I think it's new. I think
it's new. It's new. I mean I remember playing Austin
City Limits when I was in the in the duo,
and it was people and that yeah, that yeah, that
we're there watching that our set, and I just thought,
we just have to go out and do what we do.
We do this all the time. We would we would
play he did yeh, that's right, right, that's right. And

(53:48):
I was a big fan. So I don't know how
many years you played it, but I saw you guys
one year for sure, we only played well then I
was there. I was that guy. You were that dude
were there, We were there. I knew it was you. Yeah. Um.
I think it's just you just do what you do.
It's the stage gets bigger, it's it's a little bit
more like uh, I still always will try and find

(54:09):
someone's eyes, you know, it's just more options. When the
when the crowd gets bigger, did you have a fear
as they got bigger? Again, I'm gonna project a lot
of my fears onto you, because I feel like we're
a bit similar in some ways. Did you have a
fear that when I got bigger, you had to take
care of more people, and that if I got smaller,
you couldn't take care of those people anymore? I think
the getting bigger part. I looked around at one point

(54:31):
and I was like, well, we were employing this many
people and the people I care about, And so when
the duo like imploded the way that it did, I
slipped around. I was like, oh my god, all these
people that have invested their time and like we're like
it's their salaries and all of that stuff. It was
such a heartbreak, but I'm glad to say that, Um,
I've remained friends but with you know, almost everybody UM

(54:54):
in that era. Um, with the exception of a few.
But for me, it's the have all. It's all my friends,
like all my show, I have like eight or nine people. Yeah. Well,
and you're super loyal as well, Like my people have
be on me forever. I know which is rad and
so I'm like, man, if I go backward, I mean,
I've put a lot of that pressure on me that
I can't go backward because I've these I've uprooted people
and moved them with you, so as as just gotten bigger.

(55:18):
I think the pressure has i' masked that I have
to keep it at least the same and hopefully bigger
because I want them to have better lives. Yes, I
totally get that, And I've had a lot of conversations
with other artists and people in various industries that when
they do well, they have that same they have that
same exact feeling. Today I had a little bit of
pride as Mike over here was wearing a jacket from

(55:39):
Nordstrom and very poor Mike was my intern. Mike was
my phone screener, like got Mike was eating top ramen
just to make things, make ends meet. The guy came
through the struggle the struggle was and said, what's up
with that jacket? I like that jacket and it goes.
I got it from Nordstrom. I was like, who are you?

(56:00):
The fact that you even in Nordney? What was it like?
Oh my god, it was so much fun. I'll never
forget the first time because we hadn't met her before
we literally went on the road. So we were sound
checking and she came. She came up. She was at

(56:20):
the top floor. She had her makeup the cape like
makeup hair cape like when you go to the salon
on half her hair and curlers the other half not.
She was smoking a cigarette and um and she yelled.
She was, oh my god, oh my god, you're finally here.
I'm so glad you're here. And it was like instant awesome,
Like she just is instantly awesome. And but I felt

(56:42):
I felt nervous. And there was kind of a distance
that we was sort of had with like the amount
of people on the road, and the tour was kind
of bigger and UM, but she hadn't really exploded to
the degree that she was just like right on the
precipice of UM. But day two, the show three, get
back Show Show three, she said, let's let's get dinner

(57:03):
on an off day, and so we did. We got dinner,
and I tried to keep up with Adele. She doesn't
so much anymore, but legendary. Oh my god. I thought
I didn't realize that we were a nice restaurant, you
know where like then your drink never fully gets empty
before they bring you a new one. UM. But I
was told later UM, that I had had like eight

(57:26):
Gin and Tonics. You didn't realize you were no terrible idea.
I wound up getting wheelchaired out of the We ate dinner,
and then I vaguely remember going back to her hotel
and hanging out in the lobby because we were having
so much fun, and all of a sudden, it just
like hit, It just hits so hard. UM, and I

(57:48):
wound up being wheelchaired out of the four Seasons and
sure was UM. And then um uh somebody had recorded
the experience UM that was on tour with us, and
it was on the projector when I went to sound
check the next day and was laughing so hard in
between needing to like really really vomit, and both Adele

(58:11):
and I had like buckets side stage that next night.
But after that we were like we were fast friends
and we stayed friends. And then on the last night
of tour, we got matching tattoos and um and she
she gave me a bottle of gin jerk just to
rub it in. But what tattoos did you get with
three dots on our left wrist? Oh? That's what I

(58:32):
just saw, that three dots on the left wrist. It's
the ellipsus that just means to be continued. And we
all just felt like there is tattoo. Yeah, there was
a lot. There was a lot happening in all of
our lives at that time, and and we thought that
would be a good thing. I was her first tattoo,
or she says her first time, but there has since
been more. I've not added as many as she has

(58:54):
on my body. You've got a couple and I just
got imagining one that says mirrorble searan and I got
we one way that's red. Yeah. We were like, well, first,
she never thought we were gonna win that show. I now.
I was like, I can figure things out, like bear
with me, Like, I don't know if we're gonna win,
but we're gonna get far. And I said, if we win,
we have to get match tattoos, just throwing, and she
said yes, and then we said it on the air.

(59:15):
So then we got him, but we didn't get the
actual mirrorball, just got the words mirrorball. Yeah, I'm curious,
like what, like, whose idea was it to get mirrorball? Well,
it was mine, but I made her think it was hers,
so I didn't really did it looked like look like
we were driving into a city like a like a
water tower whenever you drew the actual mirrorball. So I'd

(59:36):
suggested a few things and really highlighted the world. And
then like a week later, she was like, you know
what I was thinking? And I was like, what tell me?
I knew where she was going to I think, was
youoot the words? I was like, you know what a
great idea. That's a good idea. And I let her
have all of that because if it didn't turn out good,
I wanted to be her fault. Yeah it's on you
know it. This is my grandmotherhoo adopted me so that
my mom Oh I got it. Yeah, and then that's Arkansas. Yeah, dude. Um,

(59:59):
rumor is you're you, at some point want to run
to be governor of Oh yeah, there's not rumber. I
will be governor of Arkansas. I'll probably doesn't you will
go for it. I don't listen. If I can't want
a dance show, I can't want anything. Is dancing and
politics are pretty much the same thing. Just act like
you know what you're doing and act like you're enjoying it.
If people will be like, I vote for you, shake hands, kids, babies,

(01:00:22):
and it's you. So I don't. I mean, skuy's the limit? Dude? Yeah?
Once I guess about a year and a half ago, Um,
I what's it going? I'm going to run for governor
of Arkansas. And the real governor of Arkansas was starting
to be annoyed by the fact that all the press
was covering that I may run for the governor of Arkansas.
And so he calls me and says, Bobb, why don't

(01:00:43):
you come to the Governor's mansion now for me. I
grew up in a town of seven hund people, Mountain Pine, Arkansas.
That was a huge deal. There are two people that
I would look at as a kid and think they
were hugely famous, the Governor and Ned probably the weather
man and Little Rock. Yes, and the Governor called me,
and so I go and myke all friends time Lindsay.
We go and we drive a little Rock and I'm

(01:01:03):
freaking out, like I've done some cool stuff, but I'm
jaded by this whole thing. Now. Well you've seen a lot, yes,
and and and again. I don't care about famous people
so much because it's just people. It's just people, right, So,
but it's a freaking governor of Arkansas. Yes, I'm different
with him. This is the coolest thing. I go in
and I didn't know he was throwing a party for me,
and they are like twelve people on the table. I

(01:01:24):
want the menu. It's like you can't eat me, but
I know. I was like, wow, this sounds really and
especial guests Lindsay l her name was on there. So
we have this dinner. Everybody's like standing up saying and
I'm like, what is happening. It's like Twilight Zone. I
bet so He's like, hey, can I talk to you?
Is he like, hey, can you not. Yeah he was.
He was for real or was he just kind of

(01:01:44):
being I wanted to know, Well, yeah, because you're you're
tour to forced dude. He wanted to really know. And
I said, you know, I'm not going to run yet
with him because he only had two terms. Anyone that
like this year you want to again, And I wasn't
gonna win, but I would have really been annoying, right,
and again, who knows what everything has happened? Who knows?

(01:02:06):
And so but we made a couple of deals and
I got to see firsthand, made a couple of deals.
Made a couple of deals in the back room that
sounds is legal. One of Yeah, isn't everything legal in politics?
One of them was that he would write in my book.
And he wrote a thing in my book. My last
books all about failure. That's all anyone could write about.
So he wrote about his biggest failure. And so another
one I can tell you off the air. But yeah,

(01:02:29):
that was really cool for me to to go and
do that. That's awesome to go. But I don't know
how I got over to this. You know what was
annoying to me at one point. I'm a huge Kyle
Cubs fan. I'm gonna give you an analogy here. I'm
a huge Chole Cubs fani. When they won the World Series.
That was so annoyed with everybody who became Chico Cubs
fans because he felt like it was I've been through
all the crap. I've been a Cubs fans, get it.

(01:02:50):
Whenever that song came out with Taylor, I was so
annoyed people that became fans of Civil Wars. I was
so annoyed because all of a sudden, everybody loved him.
You got of the favorite band, and I was like,
you guys, suck you got. I was a fan because
then all of a sudden, everybody was all on the
Civil Wars. And for about a month, I was like, yeah,

(01:03:11):
it now that everybody knows, this was a big thing
for you guys. It was. It was like it exposed
you to so many people that may not have searched
for even your type of music. Absolutely absolutely, And I
mean you know the timing of the Civil Wars coming
out too, It's like, who had any idea that like
Mumford and Sons in that whole kind of folk like
revival was going to come. Nobody knew I didn't know that.

(01:03:34):
We didn't write knowing that that was going to happen,
but um, yeah, I mean we were we were playing
a gig in l A. And Taylor texted me and
we we'd met, you know, become friends, and she was like, hey,
are you in town? I think you're in town. Checked
out your tourist schedule. You're in town, right. I was
like yeah. She's like I want you to come right
with me. Um, and I was like, okay, well we

(01:03:56):
gotta we got a gig tonight. And so she's like,
it's okay, we can write it in like three hours.
And so we went over to t bam Burnett Studio
and um and literally wrote it in two hours, recorded
the recorded what you hear the vocals like all in
one room and UM and that was that. So when
it comes out Monster movie with a monster artist, yeah,

(01:04:18):
from a monster book series that I was obsessed with
it and that's a whole different days. I know, you
and I get nerd out later loved it. I mean
that did that kind of pivot you guys commercially. Yeah,
I mean I think it did. What was amazing was,
um was Taylor and Adele. You know those things were,

(01:04:41):
and all the late nights starting to come, it was
you know, you could just we could just start seeing
the snowball effect happen. Um. So that was so crazy.
I got to do so many things that I'd always
hoped to do as an artist, and meet so many
people that I always you know, looked up to, and
have a lot of really good memories and take those
memories with me. You know, it was so painful when

(01:05:03):
the duo ended, and it was abrupt, and it was
it was really hard. But but I think now, you know,
with making music now, Um, you know, it's not like
I'm going to pretend I wasn't like ever that I
didn't never do any of that. Like, it's really it's
really important for me. It's fun to be nostalgic about it.
Um in the ways that it brings me a lot
of joy and how many people enjoyed the music and

(01:05:26):
connected with it and um and frankly allows me the
ability to keep making music now. So um, yeah, I
don't really know how we got. I was annoyed with
Civil Wars fans. Civil Wars fans just oh yeah, just
because you don't even real fans shut up. Well, you know,
What's funny is that you you talk about Chicago Cubs,
but I got married to a Boston Red Sox fan

(01:05:48):
in two thousand four, so which it was like, you know,
that was the year. It was after eight six years,
you know. So I'm I'm like laughing about you, you know,
joking about the fair weather ends, and I'm like, I
probably would have been one of them, if you could
have considered me one of them, because I was like
San Francisco Giants fan and then all of a sudden
married into like Red Sox family for like multiple generations

(01:06:11):
and was sitting next to my husband wearing like four
Red Sox shirts and all the house, Yeah, I'm married in, married,
I did, I'm married in. Then you guys, you guys
put out a free download and you're done. The civil
wars are done. We put out a free download, and
then we record an EP, the Poison and Wine EP,
and put that out and that's when the placement for

(01:06:33):
Gray's happens, and that's when stuff starts really like spinning.
We record a record with Charlie Peacock, and we record
with Charlie because I've known him since I was seventeen,
and I knew he could do a great job. Um.
We recorded it in an old, like gutted church that
was Charlie and Andy's home, and UM put it out.

(01:06:53):
And we've been touring and we just never stopped touring.
We just toured and toured and tore it and toord
and toward and toward, which was helpful for our careers
but not necessarily for our minds. Um. But and then
and then you get the phone calls. You know, you
know how this goes. It's like the phone call happens,
and then you get a bigger phone call, and then
you get a bigger phone call and it gets It's

(01:07:13):
very um, it's very alluring, like saying yes, and you
want to say yes because you've worked your whole life
to get you know, to a certain to a certain place,
whatever that place is. Isn't it cool to finally be cool?
I don't know, you know, I don't know. Listen, I
don't think I'll ever be cool. But what I mean
is people actually thinking you're cool, Like I get work
offered to me now, just like when you guys are blowing,

(01:07:34):
you had to be like, oh, we've been working so
hard and people now are offering us to come do
these shows. Yeah, yeah it was. It felt really good.
It felt really good. So what do you say about
the breakup? Um? That it's layered and that I'm um
only one half, so I try and speak with a
lot of discretion UM, And that it was really fun

(01:07:56):
until it wasn't. Do you miss having someone on stage
as a partner or do you like just do enjoy now?
I like doing this now. This feels very much like
where I'm supposed to be, UM, and I can be
thankful for the season and have learned a ship ton
from it. UM. But I once had somebody in an

(01:08:17):
office and a very high tall building, a very important building, UM,
in a very big city tell me that no one
wanted to hear me unless I was standing next to
a man. And that, for me was the moment when
I said, you know what, I don't think that's true
at all. And that was just a few years ago.
So I think for me, I'm exactly where I need
to be. And it feels really good to be standing

(01:08:38):
on my own t feet and I am collaborating with people.
I have an amazing UM, I'm an amazing band that
I get to travel with. I've got Anthony Da Costa
on guitar and Wilhelmina Frank Zerda who plays like every
instrument you could possibly think of, and um, and we're
harmonizing and um. You know, for a while we had
an upright base and I just I love it. I

(01:08:59):
do best when I elaborate. I'm not like a girl
that that's like, you know, flag on a hill. It's
my way or the highway. I've never been that way. Um,
I do really, I think I do a lot better
when I collaborate, and so I'll always do that in
some way, shape or form. Um. But this time, it
says a solo artist date solo headlining tour starting February

(01:09:20):
Phoenix in a wrap up in Nashville. You doing two
nights at Third and Lensley. Yeah. I wanted to come
to your release show, and I felt so bad because
I was like, I'm coming and I didn't get back
in time. You're totally fine. It was so fun. It
was at the O G Basement. Don't tell me how fun.
It was terrible. Sound was awful, it was great. I'm sorry.
It was so much fun and it felt so good

(01:09:40):
to be back down there and um, industry friends and
like you know, it just felt right. This season just
feels I've been through some really, really tough seasons, Bobby
like in the last few years, and it feels so
damn good to be in in a season where things
feel like again, like they're resonating and where I feel

(01:10:03):
more more grounded in myself. That feels really good. So
regardless of what happens, I am pleased that the music
seems to be connecting, but um yeah, I'm just enjoying
myself that connects with me. I told you I listen
this stuff all the time, all the time you and
I won't. I think someone sent me hey here, so
I would have listen to the whole record because I

(01:10:25):
felt like I cheat, I didn't. I don't listen to
a music from people ever, even my favorite artists. I
won't because I feel like that's cheating my people, and
I don't want to be cooler than they are, and
I don't want to be like I've already heard it
wait till you hear it, except do you already saw
the music videos? So that's different. The reason I was
able to cheat on that is wait, talk to me
about your justification, because I'm loving hearing that I could

(01:10:46):
see it. What has that happen to do with anything?
It was a music video. I would watch a movie
screener before I would watch a movie. I don't same okay,
So okay, I get movie screeners all the time. I
don't feel like I'm cooler than anybody else the music
videos that he check this out so and I was like,
I was like, should I mute it and watch it?
I didn't. I didn't, but I felt like I did
feel like I was cheating. I like, I like these quirks.

(01:11:09):
I liked that I'm figuring all quirks. Aren't we all?
I think we all are all quirks. I totally get that.
The other day I was like, where's the lid to
this pen? Where's the lid to this pen? And I'm like, oh,
I'm a little bit crazy. Do you know what has
made my life better? This massive sharpie that I have?
And because I checked, I haven't big on the lists.
I o c D about lists. I have lists. I
check everything off. I can't walk. Mike is my head

(01:11:31):
writer on the show, so I write all the games
and a lot of the stories that I talked about.
He has them already and I have this thing that
I check off, And about halfway through the show, I
give him everything i' checked off. He has to give
me a whole new list of things I haven't checked off,
and he got me this big sharpie. Let's enjoy. I
can mark off and holding with one sharpie stroke. It's
the greatest thing. I love it so much. Are you

(01:11:52):
endorsed by Sharpie? Because I'm not, But I am endorsed
by the General Insurance? Are yes? You are? Catch That's right.
They're not even advertising on this. That's amazing. What's on
the top of your list right now? On what what
to do? Oh? Every day, like I make a list
of things to talk about on the show, and so

(01:12:13):
you know, we started five am, and so I have
what I want to do. My show doesn't see my
my page. No one on my show, one on your
show does. Is the only one that sees it. You're
the keeper and also the helper. I'd never allowed any
I'm kind of a control freakause I never depended on
anyone else. I know. I finally let someone in a
little bit, so Mike does it with me now and
so no one sees it. And so every day it's

(01:12:35):
like a different different thing. And do you have lists
for like taking care of things? You need to take
care of everything on my computer all the time. If
I'm packing and make a list of things I gotta
make sure to put in my suitcase and then I
take it and not erase it. Were you doing? Were
you like that as a kid? I think I would
had to find ways to be efficient and get things done. Yep, yep,

(01:12:55):
So probably in different ways. I get that. So but yeah,
my point is we're all just quirks. Dude for days,
for days, I get it. I totally get it. Been
talking that funny, that's funny. Sometimes we'll shut these things
out like thirty minutes time. Well, I get it. I've

(01:13:16):
been there. That's like, that's like you have a lot
of first dates, you know what I mean? With people
that it's it's like you you know pretty quickly if
if you're like, oh, no, I'll just have a salad,
like can I get the side salad please? And no
I don't want coffee. At the end of this, I'm good.
I got somewhere to go. I totally get it. I
have a lot of first dates up here that because

(01:13:37):
it's a lot. It's like someone coming into my house
every time. To know. I get that, but I don't
have a lot of first dates in life, like I
have more work first days. I'm sorry, you gotta make
up that ratio. You gotta mix up that ratio. And
but you have to slow down if you're gonna meet.
But I don't know how to do that. I don't
even have to meet anybody. Now, what do you mean

(01:13:58):
there's like eight million ways to meet people. I'm not
really well, not really. I mean you can meet people,
but it just depends what kind of quality interaction you want.
I'm not trying to Yeah, yeah, you're you're past like
this swipe and all that stuff. Yeah, I'm not better
than it. No, I don't think you're saying that. I
just think I hear you saying I don't really want

(01:14:19):
to do that, and I don't trust people anymore, anybody.
Gratia Marks used to say, I don't want to be
in a club that would would have me, And it's like,
I don't want to date anyone that wants to date me. Well,
then they're they're in lies. Your quandary, dude, never ending.
You need a hug, Dude, I need a hug, and

(01:14:41):
I'll end with this story before I finish on your story.
When I was a kid, and this is not a
way story, but this is just a quick overview at
how my life is different but the same. When I
was a kid, I would like when church would drop
me off, I would never let them drop me in
front of my house because I'm embarrassed to where I lived.
I would never let anyone go to my house because

(01:15:01):
I was embarrassed of where I lived at all. No
one you couldn't see it, because I didn't want people
to see, you know how poor I was, and so
they I would have them dropping off a block away,
three blocks away, and I would lie about where I
lived all the time. The same thing, just different because
I do well now, I don't want anyone to see
where I live, except that we're all coming into your house. Well,

(01:15:23):
this is work, work is complete, separate. But I don't want,
I want. I don't want anyone to come into my
house like personally, like just like a chill day. I
don't want him to judge in any way. It's the
same feeling because I want him to always got a
nice house. I should probably want to like him the
same way. I don't even be like, oh, he's got
a terribly house. I don't want to I should not
like him. That feels exactly the same, Like it make

(01:15:46):
given me this like nauseous feeling. This is so like
I appreciate you being this honest and open with me.
This is it's really fascinating. It's like you feel you
feel really self conscious completely, Yeah, in the same way. Yeah,
just different circumstances. Yeah, yeah, like full one eight. Yeah,
it's like full circles. Yeah, the circumstances, but on the

(01:16:12):
circumstances three sixty on the field for a song that's
on you, we'll just have to write it together. We'll
do We'll write it together. Let me say this. The
record is called Front Porch and it is not out yet,
as she's told she scolded me at the first of
this podcast. Hopefully just gently school. I was talking about
this song. But the record comes out and they're so

(01:16:33):
many dates. Are all the dates up at Joy Williams. Yeah, okay, yep,
they are. They're all available tickets a lot of them
are selling out, which just feels great because the record
is not even out yet. How about that, right, Like,
isn't it a thing when people want to come to
a show, it's getting nervous. I just feel grateful. That's
what I feel like. I just I'm like, I literally
sometimes I'll say, I can't believe you guys are here,

(01:16:54):
and that's how I feel every night. I'm like, I
can't believe. I can't believe you showed up. I feel
the same freaking win. Know. I do stand up and
there'll be three thousand people or two in theater. People
it doesn't matter, and I will be like, I can't
believe you guys will paying money to watch me do this.
I know, but what a gift. It's so fun. I
love singing. I love when people show up. It's so

(01:17:16):
much fun. And I just feel like we're literally just
hanging out on you know, on a front porch, I guess,
or I have say sometimes in the living room, which
feels like we're all in it together. I love that feeling.
I'm gonna come. I'm gonna come. Ye you wanted to
come already. I never go to anybody, but I'm so
sad I missed it. Okay, let let me do the
money stuff here. The album Front Porch comes out May three.
If it's after May three, it is out for you. Now,
you should stream it, download it, you should go watch

(01:17:37):
a show. Um, it's been what almost four years since Venus?
Is that right? A little? Yeah? Give her take about
four years, give or take. Yeah, that's a long that's
a long time. It's been a few different life wow.
Um okay. Headlining tour starts February and Phoenix and then
she's all over the place. Well, let me say this

(01:17:58):
has been a real treat for me. I rarely get
to pulling people that I'm a genuine fan of. Most
of the time. People come in and I'm like, hey,
you're pretty good at what you do. Let's talk about it.
Than it was good Joy Williams at Joy Williams. Anything
you'd like to say. You took a breath. I thought
I was interrupted. No, I was just saying I was
just gonna say, it's really fun hanging out with you.
Thanks for letting me bombard your your cossa and you
cursed several times. Preachers daughter that cusses. Yeah. Living on

(01:18:21):
the Edge at Joy Williams Record Front Porch check out
Front Porch song. The video will be out sometimes soon.
Let me tell you it is a freaking awesome video.
When you see it, I'll go and post it on
my account tonight, episode one before Joy. Thank you all right,
every