#350 - Gavin DeGraw on Growing up in a Prison Town + Wanting to Finish His New Album Before His Dad Passed + Getting Roped into Dancing with the Stars + Opening for Billy Joel

Bobby and Gavin start by talking about the bars he owns in town and how involved he is in that business. Gavin shares the story behind his new album “Face The River” and how it is dedicated to his late parents, Wayne and Lynne which makes him very emotional.  He talks about what it was like growing up in a prison town, how he and his brother moved to NYC to pursue music and how he ended up in Nashville. Gavin also shares stories about why he ended doing Dancing with the Stars and getting to open up for his hero, Billy Joel. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome the episode three fifty. It's a good one. I
want to talk less here and just get to it
because because I don't know what to expect with Gavin.
I'd met him before, he had played with the Raging
Idiots once at our Ryman show a few years ago,
and he was so good. I just remember him singing,
and I've heard him singing before, but I was right
beside him and I was like, holy crap, Like he's

(00:23):
just different good. So what I want to do is
play this. And we went for over an hour and
just the guy put his heart on a sleeve, So
you know, I don't want to really cloud it up.
But what we're gonna do is we're gonna play the
full interview and then we're gonna play because we're gonna
insert some stuff from the show at the end of this. Right, Mike,
what are we doing at the end of this? Him
talking about I don't want to be playing it. So

(00:43):
what happened in this interview is we started talking about
his family, which he's got a really great story. He
grew up in a town with a bunch of prisons.
His dad was a prison guard. He'll tell you all
about it. And we started talking about his life so
much that I never wanted to pivot it and go
to like I don't want to be or the hits
because what we were doing was so cool. You'll see why.
But then I took a clip from the radio show

(01:05):
that's coming up next week and he tells that story
as well, So we kind of paired that on the
back for everybody that wants to hear that there's a
good one that I remember him leaving. And I was like, dang,
that's for real. Yeah, it's very real. It's a good one. Yeah.
Uh So. Gavin Degarraw his new record, Face the River,
came out May twentie. It is very good. It is
inspired by his late parents, Wayne and Lynn. He will
tell you all about that. He teamed up with Facebook

(01:27):
to film a six part docusea Rate. It's out now
about the album. You can check that out. And here
is Gavin DeGraw Episode three fifty Enjoy. So you're in
a bar, I know, in town, but is it on Broadway? Broadway?
Do you go? Do you go? Do you work it?
And I asked, because I have I have a few

(01:47):
gyms here, but I am part owner have the gym
of the gym. Have three gyms here? Cool. I don't
ever go in. I mean I going to work out,
but I don't. That's not my specialty. You know. I
told jokes and I do radio TV shows because I would.
I don't know what I'm doing. But do you what
do you do there? Um? I'm not real handy in

(02:11):
the bar business? Yeah? Same, That's what I wonder when
I said you owned it, I wonder do you go
in and actually like, all right, you're gonna work this shift?
Hey Clark, you're up here. No, I could never do that.
I can't do that just because, Uh, I wouldn't be
able to tell someone they don't have a shift, uh
unless they were like mean to me, you know what

(02:31):
I mean, only a punishment you could you got no
shift today? You know? So do you oversee or did
you buy in as a partner and you tell me
all this? I was just wondering because I have the
same kind of situation, and I wonder maybe Gavig just
way way more into being something other than an artist. No.

(02:52):
I mean, don't get me wrong, I like I like
to gamble, right, um, but I don't gamble at tables.
I'm like, but with my life guy. You know, it
seems a little more dangerous. At first, I was like, yeah, yeah.
I was like, oh no, I don't Yeah, yeah, I'm
over table. Okay, Okay, I don't. I don't know anything
about that. But but but I don't know, it's a

(03:12):
gamble with Uh. I don't know. There's something about like
going all in on stuff and and taking taking risks
with with things. Um No, I don't know all about
the bar business. I just grew up in bars, so
a bar bar thing felt pretty natural. How did that
come to you or did you go to it? Like

(03:33):
did you pursue? All Right, I'm gonna go find a
bar or a club whatever it is, you know. Um, alright,
so my brother and I we got in a into
a bar. Uh. We got in the bar business in
New York City in um man, We generated a lot
of money. So you're already doing it a little bit.
Then you've done this before. Yeah, we had a bar

(03:53):
for like five years before we got a bar here
in Nashville. So we had a bar in the Lower
East Side, like right a Houseton and Allen in Manhattan.
And we did it because we wanted to have We
were just you know, we did a lot of drinking.
So we're like, we're doing we're spending so much of
my dream. We made as well buy a bar anyway,
you know. And then um, and a lot of us

(04:15):
are friends with musicians because we're musicians. We grew up
playing in bars. You know. I was a teenager playing
bars on school nights, you know, fifteen years old playing
you know, you get done with basketball practice. You like,
now I've rat to go play a bar, you know. Uh.
And then so that was just a culture for us
growing up. So we got in the bar business in
New York scene. A lot of the music scene kind

(04:35):
of disappear out of New York City. We were like,
let's helped keep this thing alive, you know, we know,
with a bunch of musicians, and we would be nice
to provide a place. Um and that was cool for
a while, but you're just hemorrhaging dough. You know. We
generated a ton of money, but we never took any
money out right. Never ever. So one day my brother

(04:57):
calls me, he says, hey, I found a property in Nashville, Tennessee.
I said, okay for what he said, Well, you have
any interest in being the bar business in Nashville, Tennessee.
You weren't here at this time. You weren't here yet. No,
this was about um, fourteen years ago. You want to
open a bar in Nashville. I said absolutely not. No.

(05:21):
He goes, but I found a great location. I said,
where is it. He said, Broadway in Nashville. I said
on Broadway. He said on Broadway. I still want to
don't want to do the bar? I said no. He said,
but you haven't heard the terms. I said, what are
the terms? Uh, square foot, two thousand dollars a month

(05:42):
or something like that. I said, storefront. He said, yep.
I said, we're in the bar business, right, So we
signed a twenty five year lease on a storefront. Yep,
and just over two thousand dollars months. Uh. And the
market man, the town you know, the town erupted. We
we didn't see that coming. We thought maybe there'll be

(06:04):
more coming, you know on Lower Broadway, there maybe be
some development. But to the degree it happened as fast
as appen, nobody could predict that. Nobody less hemorrhaging on
this one than the New York one. Dude, this is
this one's it's a different place. Yeah, this is it's
incredible to a great business. Uh No, I mean it was.

(06:26):
It was a factor, you know. The main factor was that, Um,
I like the price for square foot around here when
I came here, and I liked the local culture here
a lot the people who've been here a long time
are really there was a certain amount of southern charms,
still really very Nashville Southern charm thing here that I

(06:46):
really liked. Um And a lot of a lot of musicians.
And they treated me well, and they treat songwriters really
well in this town. They really believe that songwriters aren't
important here, um, which I which I think is very
important in the music business. They on writers nicely, uh
or or you know these are you know, be out

(07:08):
there singing the A. B. C's you know and so.
And it was nice being around people who who were
in the same craft. That keeps you motivated and sometimes
competitive some sometimes camaraderie and all of it's good. Um.
It just keeps you going. Um uh. And we just
we liked a lot of things about it. The town

(07:29):
is cool and um. But nobody saw this coming, certainly,
not not me. Did you try or run Nashville at all?
It just come down for a few months or did
you just go let's go. I mean I've been to town,
you know, touring, you know, just playing gigs, and you know,
played a bunch of small spots. Um, what's that place
out you guys? The wrong guy about anywhere? And I

(07:52):
lived here nine days GPS t N, I know nothing.
So if you're really asking, great, if just doing that,
what's that what you're trying to figure it out here?
I'm trying, man, I can't remember. I played a bunch
of little places, you know, just you know, as you're
trying to get a career going coming through town. And

(08:12):
I just liked how people treated me here. I got
I got treated nice and and they people knew each other,
and it felt like I was tapping into a town.
When I came here. He had he had come with me, um.
And I mean he found that location on Broadway from
his lazy boy chair in New York City. You know,

(08:33):
he was just Craigslist to Halick, you know, and uh
just always looking for, you know, an opportunity to deal
or whatever. So we got to hold that place square
foot Now we're we have and that was now we
have a fifty year lease on the whole building. We're
fifty square foot. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, and we're still

(08:55):
developing it. I mean we're operating at forty square feet
right now. Do you ever trying to buy the building?
You know, it's a it's a peculiar thing. Um, it's
just we don't need to, you know, we don't need to.
The math wouldn't make sense. And this has been real
estate talk with Gavin and Bobby. So we'll see you
next week, everybody. I mean, if if the terms, if
the terms matched exactly right, it could work. But our

(09:17):
our lease is so favorable, I mean, fifty or at
least you ever pop in there and play, uh once
in a while, I get up with an act if
they're they're playing, you know, strumming. Um. We don't have
a ton of acoustic music in there as much as
we did. We started just like that. In fact, we did.
I mean we were doing blue grass, and I mean

(09:38):
it was, oh, brother artou up in there when you
walked in there, you know, and uh, I am mane.
You know it was you know like that, you know,
and uh, but we do um, I don't know. It
got the crowd and there got younger and younger, and
they were asking for DJs on the roof. So they're like,
let put a DJ on the roof. You know, I'm

(09:58):
not gonna tell them what they want. They're telling, they're
telling the building what they want. You know. Um, I
don't want to force feed anybody and anything. So yeah,
we've got like all these crazy rooftops and bull riding
and bowling and gaming and I mean, you name it,
that's what we're doing. You know that's cool. Yeah, it's
it's crazy. Man. You know way more about that than
I do mine. I mean, similarly, I was at the

(10:20):
gym all the time. Yeah, as you can tell about
looking at me. Yeah, I know, Arnold, but I was like,
why am I paying a membership? And why? I was like,
I should just see what's up. And the guy that
owned it, he don't I think you know, one or
maybe two at the time. I said, hey, let me
get in on this, like you run it really well.
I don't run a gym, but I can help you

(10:41):
in other ways. And so we split it, we bought it,
we bought another one, and so we have three. And
it's yeah, I don't know anything. Yeah, I just go
in down, don't pay membership. Hey, man, you know what
I said. I mean, it's just like you're going to
get free beer and that's all I got to do
with it. That's that's a ballsy move, man, you know
what I mean. You're like, why don't I just pay
upfront for all my exercise and now the rest of
my life and my kids? My kids? Right? So I

(11:06):
did the same thing, man. And it's funny because you're
never sure if it's gonna work out. You hope it
works out, and of course you do uh what I
call optimistic math on if it's gonna work out, you know,
and uh, this one, this one happens to be working out.
You know. Broadway Broadway in Nashville sells more alcohol per

(11:27):
square foot than anywhere in the United States, period, makes sense, right,
I would think Vegas would be with it or trailing
it slightly because but it's also a lot larger. Yeah,
So does Nashville felt like home to you? Like now?
You know, the people that I know for a long
time make it feel like home, right, But there's still

(11:49):
never going to be the substitute for running into the
people you actually grew up with, you know, even if
your hometown isn't really there anymore. And pretty much everybody
left because it didn't have anything really off. There's no
jobs where I grew up, you know, prisons. What is it?
What is the town? What's it called? It's called Fallsburg,
New York. And so how far outside I, like the
city would that be? If I was driving outside of

(12:10):
New York City, they would be about ninety miles down
the Highway, um and some you know, some okay roads
you know, other than that, you know, but to the
George Washington Bridge from on the Highway would be about
ninety miles. We were a sawmill town where I grew
up in Mountaine, Arkansas. Every sawmill. I'm assuming if it

(12:33):
was a prison town. Did you have family that worked
at the prison. Yeah? Yeah, my dad, Uh my dad
was a guard at at the prison, at the Maximax. Um.
So I'm assuming that's the max. Yeah, that's like that's
like the one that's like the really bad ones. Yeah.
And um so there was an annex that's people at
the end of their bid or or you know, more

(12:55):
minimal you know. Um there we had a medium security prison.
We had we had the Maxi Max and Maxi Max.
Um was were like my dad watched son of Sam
every day. I don't know if you know who that
is very famous lovely man, h you mean and by
the way, from those listening, not the show, the actual
guy that said the dog talk to him and he
actually watched him in presence what you're saying, Like, that's correct,

(13:17):
the actual killer. Yeah, he watched Willie Boskett every day.
Willie Willie Boskett was known as the Genius Killer. And um,
there is another very famous killer he watched every day
named Ronnie to Fail. You may know him by his
his other name, which is the Amityville horror Slayer. Did

(13:38):
your dad have and it's weird to say a relationship,
because these guys are really heinous beings, but did he
find that as humans that he could talk with? They
really weren't the feeling that we have about them of
just stabbing, killing and manipulating. You know, it's funny asked
him about son of Sam. I was like, man, how

(14:00):
did you do it? How do you do it? He said, Man,
it's not to Sam. I mean, I got animals in there. Guy.
You know, he's like he he's not nearly the scariest person.
I rubbed shoulders with um. But there's guys in there too.

(14:21):
That he told me when he retired, He said, I
missed a couple of my inmates. I had actually had
pretty good friendships with some of the guys. You know,
there's guys in there who you know, are a lot
like you. You're a lot like us, he said, Uh,
I said, do you think so? Huh? He goes yeah.
You know, ever think to yourself someone really upsetiate and

(14:43):
you think, man, I could just kill that guy, I said,
I mean, I guess as a figure of speech. He goes, yeah,
But the only difference between you and them, Gavin, is
that they actually do it. He said, But you know,
you think it I can kill that guy. That's more
like a figure of speech. But they do it. That's

(15:05):
the difference. Do you worry living in a prison town
if there's all these prisons that if there is an
escape of any kind, Yeah, they come to your house.
They that worried me as a kid. That worried me
because once in a while you'd have a break um.
And it was, by the way, there were other jobs there.
It's just that the prison probably employed the most people.

(15:25):
You know, so you realize, okay, you got you're definitely
gonna have other guards kids because my uncle was also
a guard. Mother uncle did prison psych and other some
other kids I grew up with their dad was guard.
And then there's other people you grew up with who
their fathers an inmate. You don't necessari necessarily know who
the inmate is, um, but you know because of the

(15:47):
nature of the town that you are going to school
with inmates kids too. So do people. Now. I've had
a lot of family in jail, but not like a
max place. So if someone's in a max, we'll families
move towards the prison to be close to their family
member in a max security place, Yeah, they would because
there's the father is Yeah, but like once a week.

(16:10):
They could see him once a month, so they lived
close to do that. Can can can tell you the
exact whole thing. But then there's conjugal visits, which is uh,
you know about these? Yeah, I done a few. Yeah
I haven't, but I didn't know what that is. I
had a had a cousin, a first cousin. Let's talk

(16:30):
about those who uh and I come from a pretty
troubled family and I have a first cousin that you know,
he was uh pimp and he had been still a
lot of trouble and he escaped. You got a nice house, Bobby,
you're kind of a pimp self appreciate, thank you. That's
a different kind of pimper. He was all over national

(16:53):
news because there was a video of him escaping prison
and he there was a small little hole where you
would passed your documents into a maybe not the guard
but the person working the game, and he figured our
way to slide through it. Ran his mom my aunt
picked him up in the park. They ran for they
ran for weeks like that. Todays show was searching for him,
constantly calling me like have you seen your cousin? No,

(17:16):
I haven't seen it. So, you know, situations like that,
that's what makes me think of that if you lived
in that town, is there a lot of unpleasant business
happening just because you're near it? But probably not. It's
maybe it's like El Paso, and that El Paso is
right on the Mexican border, lovely town. Nobody, nobody else
on them there because they're so close and they crossed

(17:37):
the American and they're like, we're we're safe, can be,
We're close to a board, safest could be, you know,
so I don't know that that's true. The prison culture
is interesting to me. I've just had people in it,
but I never was brave enough to even go up there. Yeah,
it's um, I think it makes a little it's a

(17:57):
little fringe e. I think it makes you think a
little bit really about how people interact or should interact.
I saw a lot of violence, you know, I would yeah,
I would assume. Yeah. And you know, does she work
in that system or was she She was r N
at a you know, local hospital, and then she u
ended up joining the reserves because you know, we were

(18:19):
just never making enough money. Um. And she ended up
joining the reserves because you want to get her masters
because she wanted to you know, increase her pay be
a nurse practitioner. Um. And you know, by the way,
my dad becoming a prison guard wasn't wasn't like, hey,
I want to be a prison guard. It was he

(18:39):
was trying to be a local contractor, work on houses, molawans,
you know, Chimney sweet build tables and all that stuff.
You know, So we go out and help him here
and there. And you know, if you want to help
you out, we'll go out and you know, hang draw
or whatever. And um so when he became a prison guard,
that was like being a millionaire compared to how we

(19:00):
were living. Probably benefits too, right, I mean got benefits
he got, yeah, you got you got medical, dental, whatnot.
And so that was a huge improvement on our lifestyle.
Um and she my mom was dogging to two man,
I mean, she was driving an hour back and forth
to work, uh school full time, you know, putting on camouflage,

(19:22):
climbing ropes every however many weeks for the reserves, and
you know, I was just watching their grind, thinking, man,
this sucks. Man, this sucks. You know, this sucks, and
you know, you go to school. And this is one
of the things that really hung on me was that
we had a bunch of public housing too, right down

(19:43):
the street, and there was kids who I knew, I
knew their parents didn't work, and they had nicer clothes
and I did, nicer sneakers than we had, you know,
and I just couldn't. I just couldn't wrap my head around, like, hey,
where's your reward for like, you know, for trying, you know,
where's the reward for trying? You know, not to say

(20:05):
that those kids shouldn't have nice things, but it was
nicer than then my families thinks, you know, and everybody's
working their asses off, and I was thinking to myself, dude,
this don't seem right. You know, life ain't fair. You
come from a blue collar family, but you're here as

(20:28):
an artist. And I have found that because again I
grew up in a similar way of there wasn't a
lot around me that told me I could do it
because nobody did it. People weren't screaming you can't do
it because it was a fairy tale. Now I wonder,
with New York being ninety miles away, if again the
weird dichotomy is you're in an extremely blue collar situation

(20:51):
and you're doing what you just said. You live in
a life, and you're like, we're hustling as hard as
we can. Yet ninety minutes, ninety miles whatever it is
up the road that that that's the wonderland. Like you're
actually seeing people do creative things. So it's a it's
an odd place where right around your circle, really nobody's
doing what maybe you wanted to do. I don't know

(21:11):
when you want to start do it, but if you
just go a little further everybody's doing it. So when
when was it realistic that you could actually do art,
not be paid and not be rich and famous and
have number one songs, but make a living, even if
that's paying your bills doing art. Man uh man, I'm

(21:33):
I'm not sure. Did you go to New York City ever? Like,
was that a thing? Was it close enough that you
would go? Sometimes? We went occasionally? Yeah, it went occasionally. Um,
I got the New York experience. You know, you get
to go to town and check it out. Um, tap
into it, see it, see what it is. But you know,
it was also really intimidating going to New York City.

(21:54):
You had to have gas money, you had to find parking,
had to pay for part working. It was dangerous, you know. Um,
you know, you don't really know anybody. I had an
uncle living in Hell's Kitchen in the nineties, so we'd
go there because it him UM, which is the neighborhood.

(22:17):
I end up moving to UM because you knew what
the best. Yeah, it was familiar with a little bit.
I was like, oh okay, okay, my brother found the
apartment UM. In ninety What happened was I played a
gig at a place called The Bitter ended seven September
twenty second seven, played my first gig ever in New

(22:38):
York City and then we was at the bar. I'm
twenty years old, years old, yep, and uh, my brother goes,
we gotta move here. I said, yeah, yeah, we gotta
move here. And at the time I was working out
a lumber yard um called Wide lumber And which is

(23:00):
like the Mancello area, which is next time over. I said, okay, yeah, cool,
cool with what money? And uh, he said, don't matter.
We just got to get here. I said, okay. When
he said six months or whatever it was, I said
all right, And then uh, March that following March, we
moved in the Hell's Kitchen. He had lived in New

(23:22):
York City prior, like three years earlier or something like that,
for a year three and a half years older. Yeah,
he was g A at Sony Studios when he first
when he first lived there. Funny enough, he he didn't know,
like he wasn't connected or anything. And he was a

(23:46):
g A for Michael Jackson. Kid you not, It's like crazy,
you know, He's like, I can't believe. I wish I
would have had a camera back down. I didn't have
the money to even go get one of those little crappy,
you know, drug store cameras, and I was thinking I
should really go get one of those, but that's like
two hours salary, right. If your brother is working with

(24:11):
Michael Jackson, And my assumption is, I don't I don't
know this for true or not, but if you're growing
up in a small town and you find music, someone
has to lead you to that music, either through records
or through instruments. Somehow, your parents must have had something
musical about them. Either there's their love of listening and
giving you music or playing. Is that? Yeah? Yeah, my
folks were musicians. I mean, you know, if I was

(24:31):
to define them, I'd say they were musicians, right, Yeah.
And my dad played for a living when he was
a young man, and my mother played at church um
wrote songs and uh so that's really who they were.
What they played with her job? What was there special
with the guitar players, piano players, guitar They could both

(24:53):
play guitar. My dad was a I would say, a
good guitar player. My mom was okay guitar player. My
mom was okay piano player. My dad was a ship
piano player. And uh, because he didn't play. He could
just but he could sit down and figure it out.
But they sang good, and my father in particular sang great,

(25:16):
like too good, in fact, aggravating lee good. What was
the specialty singing like? What did he like to sing?
What do you remember him singing? I get his natural
voice was sort of an Irish tenor sort of range high, thin,
real clean, pretty sound right, um, almost like a McCartney
esque signed kind of singing, you know, very pretty voice,

(25:40):
Peter Stera esque sort of thing, high higher the mind.
You know, I can't. I can't sing like that. And
he would always weep when he's sang, and uh, his
eyes would run and uh. I remember sitting across he's
standing at the crook of the piano one day at
the house because I had, you know one once I
made money, I bought a nice piano and uh, I

(26:04):
had it up at their house. I'm sitting there playing
a song that he liked, Um, a song I had
written about some some stuff. It was called she Holds
a Key, And he wanted to sing harmony. He's looking
right at me, singing the harmony, singing a way above me.
Of course, because I can't hit those. And he's crying,
just crying now, not like bawling, like at a funeral

(26:26):
kind of cry. Just his eyes are watered and running
down his face tears. I said, Dad, you're crying. Why
are you crying? And I knew he cried when he
saying I said, but why do you cry when he singing?
He said, I always cry. When I was saying, I said,
why is it? Is it just physical physically happening to you?

(26:49):
He said, no, singing he makes me so emotional. I
can't help it. I just my eyes water. I can't
it's nothing I have control. I'm just so emotional when
I say, it was beautiful to watch. So it's so
so honest, you know, because you're looking at a guy,
anyone who knew my dad, even though he liked to

(27:11):
joke around, he's a fucking dude. And uh, I never
saw him cry, but crowding sang. I didn't see him
cried at his father's funeral. Was he embarrassed that he
cried when he's saying or because no, maybe it was

(27:32):
like he felt like it was his opportunity to be emotional. Finally,
you know, it was just beautiful to watch honestly special.
You guys sing together a lot when you were young.
How did you become the guy that could? How did
you come become the kid that could sing? I guess uh.
We were encouraged to play music at the house, you know. Um.

(27:56):
In fact, they didn't even mind if I woke him
up in the old nights and that piano singing, you know. Um,
and uh I think they I think I overheard them
telling the other siblings say, if Gavin wants to wake
us up playing and singing, and they leave him along,
you know um. Because it was an addiction for me

(28:18):
saying it was an addiction. My brother actually asked my
great uncle if they were such a thing as a
singing disease. Because I sank so much growing up, I
could shut then up, you know what I mean. It's
terrible and uh so. But the singing in the house,
it was, there was music in the house. You know.
It wasn't like we were playing records in the house
all the time. That's not what it was. It was

(28:39):
people were making music in the house. You know. Dad
comes home from work and he's sitting there with his
guitar that he had when he was a teenager. You know, strumming.
And you know, I come home from school, he's sitting
there with his you know that his old gibson listened
to the Dire Straits records playing you know, the solo
as Sultan's Wing, you know, along with the records. You know,

(29:02):
and that's just that was the household culture. You know,
his father after the war, after World War two, you know,
I bought a bunch of instruments and told his brothers
when everybody learned how to play instruments, and you know,
and so had an oregon and fiddle and bongos and
uh ban Joe guitars, and you know, just wanted everybody

(29:26):
to to pick and play and and because it was therapy.
You know, it's a good therapy, you know. And had
you know, hooting, and he's had. I had a great
uncle early as a dairy farmer, and you know we'd
do all the family unions out there, and you know,
the old dudes would get together and and play, you know,

(29:46):
nothing fancy, just playing songs they liked, you know, um
Marty Robbins and and and Hank Williams and Roger Miller
and old country you know, uh King of the Road
and hang me and El Paso. You know, my granddad
was buried to the song El Paso in fact out
in the West Texas town of El Paso. Yeah, he

(30:12):
was actually buried to that song. Uh. And he told me,
he told me his whole life. I'd walk into the
house sometimes and my granddad he's sitting at his kitchen table.
He had his kitchen table was centered his whole world. Man.
So the kitchen was the first room he really walked
into once he got in the house, and he had
this he had this this uh circular table there. It's

(30:36):
about four and a half feet across and his from
his chair, he could see the whole world, his world.
Right He's watching the front door, which was eight feet away,
and behind him was a window where he watched his
bird feeder that he put together. And off to the right,
about another thirty feet away was the TV. We had

(30:58):
the news on all the time all the time. And
within arms reach. He had his phone up on the
wall right there and his tea kettle. That was it.
That was Pop's world, you know. And I walk in there.
I remember walking in. He's got a guitar in his
hand and he I walk in and he's playing El Paso.
I walked right in the house. He said, to hear

(31:20):
that song. I said, yeah, Pop, I know you play
song all the time. He said, yes, my favorite song
the world. He said, I didn't play a song at
my funeral. He always used to say it, and of
course they did, you know. And on that day I
walked into the funeral parlor. Preacher gets up and bus
had like an eighties style boom box. I mean, this
thing was a big, dude. It looked like the preacher
should have been wearing eyes out shoulder man. Man. He

(31:43):
puts his boom box on a bar stool in front
of the coffin. He said, y'all know Russ love music,
and we're like, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, Russ warring
to be here together to enjoy his favorite country in
Western song. Click presses that button, you know, that big
click sound, a little bou box of babe, And sure enough,

(32:07):
Marty Robin's El Paso came on. It was I thought,
that's awesome. Perfect. I got a great story for you too.
My inheritance from my granddad, my Papa Russell, was a
two dollar bill. Two dollar bill. That's what we all got,
two dollar bills because he always used to say he
busted open his wallet. You go see that if you

(32:27):
got one of them in your pocket and have to
be broke. Right, So say, okay, so we got two
dollar bills. I go to El Paso, Texas salmon tour.
I leave the venue playing a little dive bar of
a place right kind of places so long on the
border that defence to get into Mexico is right there, okay,

(32:51):
and like right round the rio. Grand I says, uh,
I'm skip sound checking and go to the local cafe.
Like where a place I get a cup cup coffee.
That's wherever I'm waking up, super late musician around a
midnight guy. I walk into this place, I order a coffee,
and I go to put money in the tip jar.

(33:13):
What's sitting on top of the tip jar, the top
bill on the pile of singles is a two dollar
bill in the town of El Paso, Texas. I went, Man,
this is a god thing. I called my mother right away,
because she always said there's no accidents, so you're never
gonna believe this. I told her a story. She said,
that's called the language of God. Gavin, that's your experienced today,

(33:35):
I said, I think I did. She said, oh you did.
How many times in your life you've seen a two
dollar bill laying on anything? Honestly, just a random spot,
that's right? I mean I'm thinking, I mean I've only
ever seen them when someone's like, look I got a
two dollar bill. That's exactly right. And look what you
brought up. I didn't even bring it up earlier. You
brought up El Paso, Texas. See, there's no accidents. It's

(33:57):
a great one. That was wells were spend. And when
you were telling it, and I was like, it does
ever seen two dollar bill laying around? Was even me.
I was trying to go, okay, maybe, and I wasn't
gonna say it out loud, but I was trying to rationalize. Ago.
I was like, oh, crap, man, I've never seen a
two dollar bill just chilling. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah.

(34:19):
So it sounds like music to your dad, to yourself,
it was just understood. The importance was understood, maybe not
to make a full living, but to to have exist
inside of you. You start to play bars or restaurants
or church or when like when you were just you,

(34:39):
when you're like, oh, I'm gonna go do a show,
I don't even get when did that happen? Um, first
gig I ever played, my brother got. Well, it wasn't
a paid gig. It was my brother was going to
a local bar next town over Mana Cellos, a place
called the Nowhere Bar, across the street from police department. Um,

(35:02):
I want to say. And he had talked to the
bartender and said, hey, my my brother is a musician.
You know, because my my brother also, Joey, is a musician.
Damn good one. And um the guy goes okay, yeah,
and he well, can you come in and play here?

(35:22):
You know, I heard you have an open mic? Can
can he come play? Can we play? He was like yeah, yeah, yeah,
come Tuesday or wherever it was. And so that was
really the first opportunity to regularly go to a bar
and play music, really play in front of people on
a regular basis, other than something like a camp talent

(35:42):
show or something like that, you know, color Wars. People
that didn't already have an investment in you as a
as a kid, as a human, we're watching you play
music for the first time. So like now Anton uncles
and friends and cousins of it. Was like people that
didn't even know you were there, are there, and now
they're hearing you play music. When you play, do you
find acceptance early or do you find that it's a

(36:04):
little more difficult than you thought when it's not your
warm family crew. I think, uh, well, I think because
because of the of youth, you're given an extra five
points out of ten right there. Right, Oh man, this
kid is great. No he ain't for fifteen exactly, but

(36:24):
it's great, right exactly exactly. So I was lucky in
that regard um that that there was there's an open mind.
You were very forgiving. When it comes to people being
young doing anything. It's almost like we're just happy somebody's
gotta work ethic. Oh look they're showing up to work today,
you know. Cool and uh it's so so in that

(36:48):
In that way, I think that was that was a
good you know, it was it was good enough reinforcement
to keep me going. And it wasn't it wasn't any
kind of embarrassment, you know, because the embarrassment sometimes will
gets you worse than anything else. What kind of student
were you at the time, though, decent? I was a
good student, you know, I cared a little too much

(37:10):
about homework to be honest with you. In fact, I
told my father a couple of years ago. It was
after my mom passed, and I saw how much fun
uh my dad, Uh I could have you know once
he didn't have someone telling him take it easy and uh.
And I said to my father, I said, uh, you know, Dad,
had I known you were this loose, I would have

(37:34):
had a lot more fun in high school, you know,
because you know, I didn't really want to get in
trouble because you get your ass whooped at home, you know, so,
so it was like he had to get permission to do.
You know, hey, Dad, you know this happened a school.
Can I disobeyed the rules to get my honor back? Sure, okay,

(37:56):
but if you got in trouble without Dad's permission, then,
you know, right, like for real? Um, I thought that
was all healthy though, to be honest, Um, I never
got the belt when I didn't deserve it. And uh anyway,
but he was real loose in some ways growing up too,
because he'd come out and play the bars with us.

(38:16):
You know, was that fun for you as a kid, great,
it's awesome. It was absolutely amazing that your dad, what's
open play with you? You didn't feel like, oh man,
my dad's really affected my style or hell no, No,
I thought I was lucky. Man. I thought I was lucky,
you know, I was getting that kind of attention from
my old man, you know. Um. And also that he

(38:40):
wasn't trying to curtail my interest in something as as
unreliable as the arts. He could have said, Man, that's
a stupid Gavin. This is not a This is not
where you should be putting your attention. I mean, especially
because he put his attention there and it didn't work
out like it. Because I would think your natural instinct
would be this sucked for me. Want you to know

(39:00):
this probably will suck for you. But he didn't do that. No.
You know, prior to me deciding to be a musician
for living, I want to go to medical school. I
was like, yeah, I go to medical school. That's what
I'll do. And then here's what happened. I see Billy
Joel play man. I'm looking around this place. I'm looking
around this arena that was our Christmas present that year.

(39:23):
Instead of getting a bunch of whatever, the socks and
underwear and all that, they were like Christmas present this
year is going to be Billy Joel concert tickets will
go as a family. Cool, all right, we go. I'm
looking around this arena, looking at strangers overwhelmed with joy.
They look like they're being cured or whatever was bothering

(39:44):
them when they walked in. I know it's not a cure,
but I'm saying I got to look around and say,
music is medicine. This is honorable job. This could be honorable.
This could be not just a hobby. This is not
just a selfish thing to do like this. It's really
else people. Man, this really speaks to people. And I
thought this, this could mean something. You gotta keep in mind.

(40:06):
I grew up in the church, hardcore. We were Church
of Hallo, So you know, I wanted to make the
Blind Sea like Jesus. I was committed. I was going
to I was giving me an out from ologist. I was,
you know, it was in there. But when I saw that,
I thought, well, I actually loved playing music and this
could help people too. You know, this is cool. You
know it's sorry spit when I talk, so you know, uh,

(40:30):
I was. I just thought, this is the right path,
This is the path for me. Is that the bug
that bet you? Right? Then if you're talking about it.
I'm watching your face kind of not just love music,
but love the idea that you could do music on
a bigger level, not just for yourself but for others.
I mean, I feel like that's the this is the
bug moment for you. That was a moment, yep. And

(40:51):
then there was another reassurance moment um when I was
about nineteen and uh, I had already I dropped out
of college. I don't know first or second time, and
uh we went to a pay local garage guy named
Frank Stratton on the garage right downtown. We lived seven

(41:12):
tenths of a mile from town, and there was this fella,
great guy, Frank Stratton. What a guy, just a good
good man, hard working, good damn man. And uh we
showed up there to pay him. My dad owe the money.
You know, you know, people money when you don't have money.

(41:32):
But Frank had worked on the car, and I guess
dad got paid, so we want to pay him off.
And oftentimes, you know, I remember being my father many
time where he opened his wallet so he'd say how much.
He turned his wallet to me, and he he turned
the wallet so that they couldn't see what he's looking
at but I could see in as well. He didn't
have any money, and he says, oh, I just don't

(41:53):
have that much on me right now. I pay you
back or can I pay whatever? Yeah, okay, yeah, no problem,
you know, because they're neighbors. You know, it's a small town.
So we pay Frank Stratton hopping the car as soon
as we start the car about we're just pulling out
and we're about to go over this this really short bridge.
We had a local lake that was at the edge

(42:13):
of town, and the bridge is about five ft over
the water. And I said, Dad, if you could change anything,
what would it be about your life? Without hesitation, he said,
I never would have stopped playing music. And I'm looking
at my father, who was about the age I am
right now, and I asked him that question. And I thought,

(42:35):
he's a great dad telling me the truth. But I thought,
I don't want to feel like that when i'm his age.
And uh, he expounded on it. He said, Uh, I
could have done it. I should have done I was
good enough. I was good enough to do it. And
I and I and I quit, and uh, that's what

(43:01):
I should have done. I just knew. Eyes said I
want to feel like that feels about that I want
to validate dead. I'm gonna validate him. I'm gonna validate
his talent, you know. And it makes me emotional heavy,

(43:26):
so I thought I wanted to prove it. Uh h,
it's heavy. It is heavy too, especially when we talked
about your new record in a second. But it is
so you know that I wanted to prove that he

(43:48):
could do it too. Yeah, you know you want to
do it for him. Yeah, it almost sounds like we're
doing for him before you wanted to do it for you.
I don't know, but I want to validate it. You know.
It's important to me and uh and uh yeah, yeah,

(44:11):
it's heavy, but he got to live his dream through me.
You know. You know the way you talk about your dad,
you can tell there's it's all the things, love, respect,
I mean, the whole list of things whenever you value
as human. And it sounds like your dad was that
to you, and you know, it kind of puts us
on the new record here, which, by the way, I

(44:33):
mean these guys here are can attest. I won't say
I really like something. If I don't really like something,
I just go ahead. I just go Hey, how about
that project, you know, how about that project you did
that the new record is really freaking good. That's well,
I told you before we even came in here that
it's like, this is music that I listened to when
I just get to listen to music. M hm. And

(44:53):
you know that's how how deep this record hit. And
that's even before I knew the reason you wrote, recorded
and put the record out when you did. And so
I want to start there and and you and I
rarely want to play a song from the front of
the record because then I feel like people go, well,
that's just the first song. So but Face the River
and you know that's the first track. I believe you

(45:14):
sent it to me on what was the service SoundCloud.
I believe this sounds to me a SoundCloud record. And
so I'm just like card of my Wife. I'm just
hitting and facetoever comes on and I'm like, god, damg
if every song is like this and it was just
one after the other. And Mike, if you'll play some
Face the River before me track one, please to Faceboo River,
kill thee and die all the wate thing about their um.

(45:52):
I pictured my my, my, my mother had already passed.
My dad was already diagnosed m um with glib beast
alma um and um. I visualized my father looking across
the river at my mother m hmmm, and having to

(46:20):
face that particular point in his in his life stuff. Um.
But but I think that it's materialized. I didn't want
to shy away from I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't
shy away from it because of the time in my

(46:43):
life that I was writing it. Watching you're experiencing these
things with with these people, um, watching them go through
the stage of their life that we all know is
coming at some point. Um. We all we all have

(47:06):
some shared destiny. And uh Um, I couldn't ignore. I
couldn't ignore what I was seeing and just go off
in my corner and pretend like there was another world
that I could focus on that was happening right in
front of me. You know, even if it's a car crash, um,

(47:30):
you know it's uh you have to you have to
see it, and uh, I know what it is, and
you know you're hoping that the results aren't going to
be as bad as they are, but you know, it's
a car crash, um, and uh, I had to document it.

(47:52):
I had to document how how I felt and what
I thought maybe he felt. Uh, you know, our it's art, man.
It it's not product. It's it's art. And and it
should reflect, it should reflect a real moment and time

(48:16):
and and uh and it's it's called a record, man.
You know, a record, A record, a documents something permanent.
We should make a record of where we're at and
have that be so it's known, this is what it was,
this is what happened, you know, just the way you

(48:38):
look at any piece of history. Um, and then that's
what it is. You put it his track one. It's
such a powerful song, and obviously it's the name of
the record. And you know, sometimes the record is named
after the track. You know, there's never just a layout
of what the order is supposed to be meaning. So
that is, if not the most, one of the most

(49:00):
powerful songs on the record, and it just you turn
you play the record for a song boom, punch right
in the gut, A beautiful punch in the gut. I
mean in a way of like you emotionally are are
stung by it. Usually that didn't happen on track one.
Want you you went forward immediately was there any sort
of symbolism there with that? Um? Well, I think the

(49:23):
main thing was this is a different kind of record,
and that was the That was the big thing. It was,
you know, just letting the audience know that this is different.
It's very different. Um uh. And I was more preparing

(49:44):
them for everything else. You know, boy, you did I
mean that? And to also hear that story because this
record not only important because it's music, it's art that
you're putting into the world. But and I know you
and I talked about this in a in a different place,
but you wanted to make this right, this record, record
this record and have it ready, um, for your dad
before he passed away. Yeah. Did you have any sort

(50:06):
of idea like how fast you needed to actually get
this done? No? But I didn't know it was you know,
I knew it was bad. Um. But you know there's
no there's not ever an exact time as you know, um,

(50:27):
but it's a limited time. And was there a rush
on you? Did you feel like I gotta work fast?
I don't. I just it's a it's a it's a
timeline that you've gotta follow, But you don't actually know
word correct correct exactly there's no exact deadline that you're
aware of, right, um you know, weeks and weeks earlier,
he's in the hospital. He says to me it was

(50:50):
hard for him to talk because where the tumor was.
And he was saying to me a bit like marble
mouth is how he was trying to having a communicated. Unfortunately,
um m m. She said, you know, I want to
hear the music. You know, aren't you playing me the music?
I said, it's not done yet, Dad. I wanted you
to hear it, like I. Aren't you to hear when

(51:11):
it's right. It's really important to hear when it's right.
You gotta hear one it's right. I'm really uptight about,
you know, my job, and come on, blame me something,
Blame me something. I'm in the hospital with my sister
and uh and uh, I said, okay, okay, let me

(51:32):
let me see, let me see, let me see you.
I reach out to Dave Cobb, I say, and my
dad's in a hospital. He's really really begging me for
these songs. Is there anyway just to send me a
mix of just just a couple of songs. I love
for him to hear a couple of songs, just a
couple of songs really help. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah sure.
So a couple of minutes later, he sends me three

(51:55):
songs since we Faced the River and desk me in
summertime and uh and uh um. So Dad starts crying

(52:23):
when he hears the first high note of of the
chorus of Face the River. He's really feeling it right away,
you know, um, really reacting. And I played the songs,
the three that I had, and he says, I wish
your mother could heard these. I wish you could hear

(52:43):
this right now, this record. And I says, uh, she
wrote the record, that she wrote the record. He says
she did, She did write the record. Some weeks go by,
I'm trying to finish the album because I know the
state is not good. M Um, album is done. I

(53:07):
take it to him immediately. I said, Dad, you want
to hear the album, the whole album now. He said yeah, yeah.
So I put headphones on, turn it up so I
could hear where it's at, you know, loud enough. He
likes it loud anyway, and we go straight through the record,
top of bottom, and he's so moved, and m I said,

(53:34):
you want to hear it again. Played for me again. Later,
Let's do it later, I said, good, Okay, My brother
and I we hop in the car. We take a drive.
A half hour later, half hour after I finished playing
that record, phone rings and my dad's hav an emergency.

(53:55):
They need to take him to hospital immediately. There was
some kind of complication and it was taking the hospital
and put on heavy drugs and you know for the
next day and a half. Um, he's just on heavy
drugs for that. You know that slow bowl ride out,
you know. Um. So however, the timing worked out, without exaggeration,

(54:19):
got to play him the whole record in the nick
of time, and um, and it's uh, that's a little
bit of closure I get. Um is that is that
I got to give him that that experience and say,
you know, this is you know, your dedication. You know

(54:45):
so um, very hard. But but damn I hate crying.
I appreciate the vulnerability. I mean, you could tell the
love that you have for your mom and your dad.
You can also tell when you listen to this record.

(55:06):
I mean, even if you didn't know why, that's just
someone just came across this record on playlist, not even
individual songs, but you may you may like Gavin de
Girl Faced the River, I think you would listen to
this and go, well, something's got him like something because
it just feels different. It feels like there's there's. Yeah,
it feels like there is. It feels very deliberate in

(55:29):
the in the most beautiful way, and I want, I
want to go to let someone in because again you
start hardy in hard and you have all the emotions
all in between. But I want to play Mike, this
has let someone in track ten, someone you that needs.

(55:57):
But i'd tell you why. This was just a great
song for the end. I'm sure you know I'm gonna
let me just tell you why. I think it is
a great song for me to listen to this record
over and over again because it is a very powerful album.
But as heart felt as this song is, it's still
it's an upper. It's just this is an emotional set

(56:17):
of songs. But let someone's a it's an upper. It's
a it's a mid tempo that makes feel good, but
you know there's some real power behind it, and it's
that rare mix of all of that and you're like, man,
I just kind of went through something, but I feel
good about what I'm about to go through next. So
just there's no word that I can really use except

(56:40):
it's just a wonderful project. Thank you man. Even if
I didn't know, and I didn't know all the details
about why you made you just send me the record.
You didn't send me a text and go hey, it's
about mom dad, and you just said hey, when you
think of this record, and I'm texting like, oh, I listened.
This is why I listened to my own own time.
And I finished it, and I'm like, well, I just

(57:01):
felt and now I actually feel like I should go
feel some more, but in the most positive way. And
that song, that song is is is the perfect clothes
in my opinion for this type of record. So thank you.
Just wanted you to know that. I hope you guys
check it out Face the River. It's been not a
few weeks now. It is so good. Thank you. I mean,
it's rare that you get an artist because it doesn't

(57:25):
happen all the time. I think with all artists, at
some time it happens that you can just feel their
DNA in the project so much by their influences, what's
affected them, what's still affecting them, what their hopes are
for the future based on their you just feel it
all through this and this is that project for you.
And I've been a fan for a long time of

(57:46):
a lot of your stuff, but and I rarely like
the newer stuff from anyone because you know, well, when
you get to be our age, you like stuff your
formidable years, when you're like, all right, I like that
the best. It's been the longest, it's proven. But this
is for me, This is this project is my favorite
thing you've ever done. Thank you, man. Wow, it means
a lot. So it means a lot. I really I

(58:08):
really tried hard to tell their story, my folk story
and my family story. I think just watching them go
to their daily war on the family's behalf. Um. I
just don't feel like that kind of life gets celebrated

(58:29):
enough in our in our culture. You know. I mean,
hey man, we all love sports and and and music
and movies and man, you know, I'd rather I'd rather
rock like Dad's picture, you know what I mean? And

(58:49):
because that those are my those are my heroes, you know,
that's my that's those are my blue collar heroes. You know,
they didn't they never even asked me for for thank you.
I think to thank you is you proving it can
be done and you can be somebody else's blue collar hero.
I think that's the thing. I think they knew that

(59:10):
and saw that, and I think they're probably thanking you
all the time. It just wasn't words going to your ear.
There are many ways to be thanked and to thank folks,
and I think that was there. Man. I got two
final things for you, and number one is a little trivial,
which I like. Though you went on Dancing with the
Stars and do very well. I always like to talk

(59:32):
to people who you did it? Back in I did
the show? Yeah, yeah, but you did? Will I did?
I rocked. I don't want to different. Listen, I won,
that's true. Who cares what I did? Who cares what
I did? I want feeling. What was your general what
was your general experience about my parents? Mant me again

(59:54):
with that show? How and we keep this quick? But
how did you get roped into it? Because I got
roped into it? Yeah? By the way, I love the
people there and experience. You're training with a pro athlete.
I agree you can never do that, no doubt. Brother,
give me your give me your experience, and like thirty
seconds on that show. The experience was killer. I did

(01:00:18):
get roped into it because I like to run motorbikes.
And I used to run motorbikes with the buddy of mine,
who's a lot of fun. He's a race car jar,
but he's a he's a red bull racer, right, So
we we like to run bikes. I like bikes. And
so one day the phone rings and somebody asked me,
who I knew was a dancer, Hey, do you wanted
to dance with the stars that. My reply, of course,

(01:00:39):
was what I said to people from One Tree Hill
originally was absolutely not. And my buddy says, uh, why
would you say no to that? I said, I don't dance, man.
He said that's the point. And then he said to me,
if you do it, i'll do it. I said really,
He said, yep, if you do it, I'll do it.

(01:01:00):
I said, you're wrong. I'm gonna get you on a
show too. So I talked to the people at the show.
I said, I'll do it only if he does it.
We're gonna do it together. Cool. I signed my contract.
I reached out to him. I said, they're sending the
contract over. I signed mine. He said, sorry, Bro, no
can do I just got a new ride. I was like,

(01:01:24):
I'm gonna kill you, bro. That's funny. It's hard though.
That was hard. It's hard, dude. Every week I'd get
a message from him say, looking good out there, twinkled toes.
I will kill you man. That's funny. The final thing
I want to hit you on is that's funny is
whenever you open to Billy Joel, oh Man, Billy Joel favorite, dude.

(01:01:49):
I gotta think that aside from it being an artist
that you just loved listen to and represented who you
where you're from, you know, we we have sure you
go back to that Christmas I mean the first time
did you is? What is that says? The first time
you open for Billy joelan? Yeah? I just did you
have any of those emotions the first time you went

(01:02:09):
up to go like, oh man, we came here for Christmas,
this is our Christmas present, and now I get to
be up here doing this unbelievable, full full circle moment
in life. You know. And uh, I'd met him briefly before,
once or twice. I met him because I pounded the
pavement for so long, for so many years. Um, before
I ever had a record deal, I used to play

(01:02:30):
at an open mic thing a bunch of players, studio
session guys and stuff on the over West side. I
had a gig every Monday night, and after my Monday
night gig, I used to go to another place after
hours and jam with these guys. And one of them
was a sack pary named Richie Kannada who was Billy
Joel's early sax player. I put a record out. I

(01:02:51):
got lucky with it. Did good. Richie reached out years
later said Billy's playing at the garden, uh eleven dates
or whatever it was. Will you come be my guest?
I said sure. He said one caveat sit with my son.
He's a fan. I said, I love to get to
the show. Richie text me come backstage. Billy wants to

(01:03:12):
meet you. I was like, yeah, So I go backstage.
There's Billy. Billy introduced himself and I was hoping he'd say, hey,
I love your music, but he said I've been reading
a lot about you. Thanks, And I said I'm a

(01:03:35):
huge fan a lot about you, you know. And uh,
I was like cool, I'm gonna go back and sit
in my chair now. And then years later, the phone
rang and my dad said, hey, Billy wants you to
open for him. And I said, Billy who? Because it's
been you know. He said, Billy Joel you moron? And

(01:03:58):
uh I said yeah, okay. When he said this date,
that date, this one date, I said, good. Where is
it going to be a place called the BB and
T Center in South Florida. So I said, great, I
go to the gig. I'm backstage. I just get their
guitar player. Uh. Tommy Burns, Billy's guitar player, being forever,

(01:04:19):
sees me backstage and he say, hey, Gavin Gavin, have
you seen Billy yet? Billy's here? Have you seen him?
I said no, No. He said, come outside, we're having
a smoke. I said, oh, okay. I go outside. Guys
are standing in a semi circle, billies in the middle,
having a dragon. I walk out. Tommy says, Billy, Billy

(01:04:42):
Gavins here, Gavin's here. I introduced myself again. I said, hey, man,
thanks for thanks for having me, say thanks, thanks for
coming out, you know, thanks for coming good. Glad glad
you were able to come here. I said, listen, you're
my idol. Okay, that's an honor. But I know there's

(01:05:03):
other musicians out there who want this gig. But I
want to say candidly, if you have anyone else in
mind for opening for you, yo, funk that guy. I
want this gig. They all started laughing. You know, he said,
can you do more more dates? I said, all canceled

(01:05:27):
dates to do these dates all cancel. You're such a
huge influence on me. He was like, you're the guy
you're hired, you know. And uh and he did and
he and I'm man, he gave me a million dates.
You know, we played the Garden a bunch of times.
I don't even know how many times. You know. Fenway Park,
uh uh, Wrigley Field. I lived around a corner from

(01:05:52):
Fenway Park when I was at college. For about a year,
I could never go to Fenway Park. I have money
to go to Fenway Park. Then one day I hop
in a shuttle bus, hop out of my hotel, getting
a shuttle bus, drive through a tunnel, and I get
out of a van in the middle of the field
in fami Way Park because I'm gonna open for Billy

(01:06:12):
that night. And I thought this was how I was
supposed to see family the park. This is so much better,
you know. Yeah, I don't know, but I can understand
how your inscription of it it is. Yeah, I don't
get to do that. Yeah, I mean they may give
me some free tickets in the outfield. I don't need
to do that. You guys. Check out Face the River.
It's just an amazing project. Thanks, you know. I I

(01:06:37):
and I'll shut it down here. But at Gavin de girl,
I can't believe that I bring up El Paso randomly,
just in a comparison to to your town and the jails,
and had nothing to do with anything. That's exactly right.
That to me, that's that's wildencies that's why that's it.

(01:06:58):
That is crazy. Listen, I prett share the typers the bank.
You appreciate that, as you know. You should know, as
you know, you would say the same thing to me
if I were to get emotional talking to you. Never
be sorry for your emotions. Yeah, man, So I'm just
gonna hold that mirror up to you. That's what you
would say to yourself. Well, you know, it's funny because
you're right. You write the songs so you don't have

(01:07:20):
to talk about stuff because you have a hard time
talking about stuff. So you write the songs because you
need to get it out of it, right. Um. But
then people ask you about your songs if you're lucky
and you don't want to do the songs of disservice
for the people that are about so you gotta you
gotta talk about it and and you gotta get it

(01:07:41):
out of you anyway. And this was the opposite way
to do it, opposite of a disservice. It's such a service.
Appreciate it. Thank you, Gavin, Girl, you guys check out
the project obviously. Another song I love on there's called
Ford check that song. Thank you man. Yeah at Gavin
a girl and thanks me. I appreciate it. Thank you bro,
thanks so much. You know you mentioned you got lucky
with I Don't Want to Be Again. I was in

(01:08:03):
pop radio at that point. I don't know it from
one Tree Hill, have to show it's on. I don't
know it from that. I'll just know it from being
played on the radio. So which is this Chicken her egg? Here?
Was it a single? And then it got big and
the TV show put it on or the TV show
and then it went from there. Man, you know, it's

(01:08:25):
funny with that song because I thought that was the
obvious first single. My brother was screaming up all the
time at me, you know, in our apartment in New York.
He's like, that's just single. What's wrong with people? You know,
like they need to put that out first. Um, but
follow Through is the one, and um I got a
phone call from a guy. The song hadn't been selected

(01:08:45):
to be a single yet, and I got a phone
phone call from a guy named Joe de Vola, and um,
Joe de vol said, Hey, I want to use your
song for a TV show. My ship not absolutely not.
I don't even watch TV. TV stupid, you know. And uh,
it's just you know, that's the New York you know,

(01:09:05):
East Village art, you know snob at the time, you know,
I was kicking around Alphabet City and you know, twenty
years ago, right. So I said, no, I only watched TV.
Who watches TV? And I don't want to be associated
with it. He goes, listen, you gotta help me, help
you the song I think would be a big song,
and I want to put it in a show. I said, na, na,

(01:09:27):
and I really appreciate it. You sound like a nice guy,
but no, thanks. He goes, Okay, let me ask you
another question, how much money you got in your bank
account right now? And I was like, fuck you bro.
He starts laughing, and uh, he goes, listen, think about it.
We're not going to touch the song. We're just gonna
put it in a place where people are gonna hear it,

(01:09:50):
you know. And that show wasn't on yet. I wasn't
even honest. Yeah, And I followed through. Apparently had been
picked up and put in another that was in pilot,
in pilot mode that never got actually never became big
with I think Val Kilmers was about the porn industry.
Followed through. I don't know, but anyway, um, but yeah,

(01:10:12):
I said, you know what, all right, this guy's right.
Guys like me aren't gonna be watching this stuff anyway
and associated with certain things. I'm not going to associate
it with a teen show. I'm not a teenager, you know.
I was twenty seven at the time. I was adult.
But I said, all right, do what do you know, man,
Just do whatever you want with it. I appreciate it,
and you know what, just do it, Just do it.

(01:10:34):
And sure enough that the song took off. And then
I walked into the label and I had a meeting
with Clive Davis, and he said, Uh, with everything happening
around this the show with the song you've heard clap talk, uh,
the obvious next single would be I Don't Want to
Be And I was like, all right, great, this is awesome.

(01:10:55):
You know, so the song I originally wanted it is
finally going to be the this single and it did it.
It took off, and you know, fortunately that was a
foot in the door in the door moment. You know,
does that I don't know. Obviously it got you to
the place that you originally wanted, meaning it's kind of
a weird way that happened. You wanted it, they said no,

(01:11:15):
you didn't want it to be on the TV show.
Then you finally said yes, which got it back around
where you wanted it. So, but do you look back
at it being on the TV show and go, hm,
I wish I wouldn't have done it, or I wish
I would have done or you just like, you know
what nailed it. It had to happen when people go, hey,
I know you from One Tree Hill. That's right, right,
When people go I know you from One Tree Hill,

(01:11:37):
You're like, oh no, I say that's awesome because you
know that's cool, okay, because how you found me, however
you found me, however you found me. You know the
fact that you know, twenty years later, if someone's coming
up to me saying they know me from a team show,
but they're still coming to my shows, that means somehow
the music is making them feel good still, right, And

(01:12:00):
if they're only coming for that one song, hey, god
bless him. If they want to sit through two hours
of music, you know, for me to get the song
at the end of the night, you know, then cool.
Did you ever have a stage where you disliked playing it?
Did you play it so much? No? I've never not
ever play it? Thank god. Well it's about to get

(01:12:20):
real awkward. No, no, no, literally, But you know it's
funny because I do know acts who talk about I
don't want to play my hits. I don't want to
do those anymore. And and I think to myself, does
this mother know how lucky they are right now that
they get to do this? You know, you got to
pull them the side. But hey, listen, I know you

(01:12:41):
know you've been doing this song every day since you
wrote this song. But must I remind you you have
one of the only jobs in the world that when
you get to clock out, people collap for you and
tell you what a good job you did. You know,
name another one, you know, name another job you could
think of that the end of your workday, people go,

(01:13:02):
great job, that was amazing tonight. You know, you don't
get that. Nobody gets that. You know, get up there
and give them what they came for. You're so blessed
to be able to do that, or you you you're
you have forgotten how how tough real life really is.
If you don't want to do a song for three

(01:13:23):
and a half minutes for people who saved up three
and a half months to drive three and a half
hours to watch you sing that song, ill fuck you. Well, Okay,
Gavin the Gross here and he's looking at me when
he said that you listen as a fan. I'm glad

(01:13:46):
that you feel that way, right And and with that
being said, yeah, don't play the whole thing. Just give
me that, give me the hook of that. I don't
want to have them yelling. Just give me the hook
and we'll call that a day on that one. All right,
here's Gavin the girl hit me with that. I don't
want to be Yeah, I don't want to be anything

(01:14:08):
other than what I've been trying to be late, like
for I have to dude thinking me in a piece
of mind. I'm tired of looking around one's wanting what
I got to do I'm supposed to be. I don't
want to be anything other than me. That's awesome. Let's

(01:14:32):
get to the new stuff now, that's what we all
came for. It. Want to be drove three and half hours.
I don't want to yell at me again. I was
thinking about leaving. You leave after that. Everybody a studio
around