Marcus K. Dowling (@marcuskdowling) is the best at what he does. He is the Nashville Country Music Reporter for The Tennessean. He shares stories behind the thousands of interviews he’s done over the years and the secret to getting country superstars to open up. Bobby reveals the one question that Marcus asked him during an interview that he’d never been asked before. Marcus talks about how he grew up loving country music even though his mom hated it. He details his journey on working in several different genres that led him to Nashville and the role Bobby’s career had in getting him here.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Episode three sixty with Marcus Dowling, who is a great,
great writer who is really on the scene in country
music right now. He talks about the format, the genre,
where it's going, where it's been. He's worked on a
lot of different formats. It's interesting to hear his story
about being in West Virginia and being introduced to country music.
You know, he's done three thousand interviews over fifteen years,
(00:23):
So I always like to bring in someone in a
matter of fact, she just interviewed me for when I
did Snake in the Grass. That's how I met him,
and I went in. I was like, Dange, this guy.
He's really good. But there's a lot of good people,
but there was something about him, and I think I
mentioned it. He asked me a question I've never been
asked before. And it wasn't just that, because you can
ask me a lot of questions. I've never been asked,
like what color is a dog's liver? I don't know,
(00:45):
I've never been asked that before, but he was like
it was right on. I was like, da, that's a
great question. So he's just done so much. And I
don't want to say a whole lot here because I
think he says most of it. Mike, any takeaway from
this interview, I mean it felt like a master class
in like country music. That was really good. He is
the Nashville country music reporter for the Tennessee In, which
is part of the USA Today Network, which basically is
(01:06):
the biggest country music writer in America, and was the
recipient of the Rolling Stone Chat Flipball Award for Excellence
and Country music Journalism. What I want to say too
is gonna be very vague. We had to cut something
from this because there's another award dish thing happening, and
he we talked about it, but he can't talk about
it right now. But can't. Yes, but he's very decorated.
I hope you enjoyed this because I definitely did. Marcus
(01:29):
Dowling follow him Marcus K. Dowling on Instagram and Twitter,
And here we go, episode three sixty. Well, now we've
flipped roles because the last time I was in the
same room, and you're putting to be pretty good in
a good way. Yeah, No, I'm here for it. I
think before we continue on, let's so I met you.
Because I don't want to measure a position up. You're
(01:50):
like King Dingling a country music that's all King Dingling writer,
I am the Nashville country musical for at the Tennessee,
which actually sounds really cool and their substance there. But
it's even bigger than that in my mind, because a
lot of your stuff gets put in the USA Today
because this is the hub. Yeah, this is the Nashville.
(02:12):
Nashville is the Tennessee hub for the USA Today network,
which is owned by Gannett. So it's a whole, like
multi tiered system. And since Nashville is the Tennessee Hub
or since whatever, and you're running country music, that's that's
your that's your whole yes area, yes, yes, like girl,
I think on your on your cards or your your
(02:33):
digital card. Now I should just say King Dingling of
writers for country music, you can have that. I'd let
you have it. I wish I appreciate it, Like I mean,
it's funny because I work with Matt lan Cooler and
Dave Paulson at the Paper and they've been in the
space as well for a long long time, so it's
a funny thing. It's like I came into this and
(02:56):
was around a lot of bloggers and younger writers who
were like oh country music. I love it and really excited.
And then when I interviewed at the paper, I met
with Matt and Dave, and as like a journalistic in general,
I'm like, like, those guys are great, and it was
it was the first moment where it was like, oh,
so like I can actually like at my age and
(03:16):
feel comfortable into that and feel like this is the
level that I was supposed to be at all along.
So it's it's it's fascinating just some of the stories
that I've seen because I started following you on Instagram
after we met. We went away, and I was like, dang,
like like, I liked you, thank you. I get interviewed
by folks all the time, but I was like, day,
(03:37):
I like him. I don't follow anybody interviews me. I
appreciate that. And I was like, that's cool. I liked him.
So I followed you, and then I started to see
your stories because I follow your Instagram account, which, by
the way, is it's just your name at Marcus with
the C K Dowling d w L. I n g Oh,
there's a kid Marcus K. Dowling. Yeah, k okay, so
Marcus K. Dowling and he puts these little things up
and it looks like a mini version of a written story.
(03:59):
It's a little digital deal. And I saw one and
you were with jelly Roll, yes, and so I would
like to hear your takeaway from your time with jelly Roll,
because I spent some time with jelly Roll as well.
It's funny with jelly So I worked in hip hop
for gosh over a decade, and I became aware of
(04:19):
jelly Roll in two thousand and tennish when he was
I think he was just he had just stopped working
with Juicy J and h working with Hypnotized Mind Records,
I think. And it was him a little white and
a couple other like you know, trap rappers were renowned
independent Southern trap rappers. And I knew who he was
(04:41):
and I was like, okay, this is cool, and like
you got incarcerated, went away. He came out of prison
and he popped back up on my radar like almost
like indie rock thing, and I was like, okay, it
was the same guy. And then I listened to the
songs and I was like, okay, there's there's like legitimacy
here and it's not just like okay, kind of like
(05:02):
throwaway blog ready trapped rock kind of thing. And then
I dug even deeper and I was like, Okay, So
at the same time that he was having his rise,
yellow Wolf was having his rise. He had a song
called Pop the Trunk that I adore. Who I knew
yellow Wolf from being interested by eminem way back in
the day. Yes, exactly right. So I was like, Okay,
(05:23):
So he has legitimacy of my eyes from way prior
to this moment right now. And for me, the thing
about him that's important is that he's able to synergize
on a very street level and country rock hip hop
hasn't operated on a street level ever before. And the
Antioch thing that he's into right now, like that's his
(05:46):
like his reps, his community that's very much out of
hip hop, and he's doing this thing in rock and country,
like he has a number one rock song and very
soon that will be a number one country song. And
for a country to have that kind of street level legitimacy,
I think the closest that I could think of to
it is like if you talk about like William, those
guys in Austin and you know, mid seventies, like that's
(06:08):
the closest thing to it, but it's different because it's
got that hip hop flavor to it, So it's a
different swagger. What about some of the the Atlantic country guys though,
like a little I wouldn't say as my little well,
like like Zach Brown for example. Yeah, yeah, but I
think that's different in the sense that Zack doesn't have
like a hip hop a true like deep embedded hip
(06:29):
hop like legitimacy, like I know, but Willy Willie didn't
have it, right, That's what I'm saying. It was different, right, Yeah,
I was saying is there is definitely different in the
sense that that hip hop swagger has not been present
in the space probably ever in this way, right. I
guess my only thing when you're referencing Willie was people
that stay in their home, right, rep their home hard
(06:51):
and don't really go where everybody else's they have to go.
And and that's not even a hip hop thing. But
it's rare in country music, right, I mean it's on
some level. You see it with old be making in
the same way here. Yeah, he's got a whole record,
So what do you think of what do you think
about a jelly role? I'm a huge fan Um. I
(07:12):
think he's um. To me, he is Country's answer to
Biggie and what in what regard charismatic and and and
sensual and in a way that you're not expecting. Like,
I'm forty four, so I still remember when Biggie was
a breaking artist and like reading about him in a
(07:32):
source and like seeing on MTV for the first time,
seeing him on BT for the first time, and You're like,
there's something about this guy is an allure there, and
then there's also obvious talent and you you don't get
that mix of alluring talent in that frame of body.
That's a very rare thing. And to me, he has
that in SPADs and to be able to have that
(07:53):
in Country, which has already been trending towards hip hop already,
there's a space that he can uniquely occupy. That is
there that I don't think necessarily a lot of people see,
but I I feel it when I see him. I'm like, this,
this guy is Biggie, like he he is, you know,
for me, coming with my background into this space, being
able to like see that and know that and reflect that.
(08:14):
I hope that that adds some kind of value to
his development. I liked him because he was very authentic.
And there's a difference then being authentic about the things
you want to be authentic about and then just going
what what what do you want? We'll do it all.
And I can tell us someone who gets interviewed and
does a lot of interviews, when someone is being authentic
(08:38):
about the things they want to be authentic about, or
they're just a for real person and I'll dance with
you wherever you want. And I like even when I
feel like the most authentic person at times will go
you know, I'd rather not talk about that because they
would rather not and they're being honest, but they'll tell
you and everything else is wide open. A lot of folks,
it's it's it's almost like it's the opposite of what
(08:59):
it should be. I feel like the most real people,
if you get to a place that they don't want
to talk, they'll just go ahead, I don't want talk
about it, instead of like faking you out a little bit. Yeah,
but I think he's a person that has markedly less
to lose than anybody else in the top country space
by by a large margin. I think you and I
are similar in that we grew up on country music,
(09:19):
but we worked in other places for a long time.
Like you know, I grew up in Arkansas. My grandmother
shoved country music down my throat when I was a young,
young kid, and I thought what was contemporary? I thought,
I thought it was a new country, and it wasn't.
It was her country, right, And so then I get
tow Olver thirteen, and I'm like, all right, I still
love it. I'm a listen to it, but I'm gonna
go do it. I'm gonna do some alternative stuff. I'm
(09:40):
just some hip hop stuff, you know. And I worked
in pop and alternative radio, I worked in hip hop.
So I feel blessed to have like all these tentacles
that have been exposed to other things that allow me
to see things a bit differently or or able to
see transitions. Now where we are. It's it's I think
it's why people either love you gonna hate you, because
(10:01):
in country there's not that acknowledgement of having a breadth
of influence. Because again I always tell people, country is
ninety five years old as a musical genre. It is
arguably the oldest pop musical genre in the space like pop,
Like you know, people say to blues whatever, but it's
like popular, like you know, mainstream music country, and so
(10:23):
troubling that and trying to think about that and look
at that from different perspectives frustrates people, or it makes
it incredibly excited because you know, but it's a very
much line in the sand conversation, or I feel like
they're ill educated because country music came from basically two places,
the slave ships and Europe exactly. It's two out influences
that came over to the States, and people they're like,
(10:44):
we don't like our outside influence. Country music is all
outside interface. But even that is a collision that is awkward,
that's troubled by you know, like American history. So it's like, okay,
So it's like you have like people who are from
a folk background in Appalachia, and you have of you know,
black people who bring their brandes over from Africa, and
(11:05):
that's troubled by slavery as a concept, so and in reality,
and when you combine those things together, that's obviously a
point of real tension. And it's always always been tense
um for me. It's like when I talk about, like,
you know, like the Black country movement, a thing that
people obviously like associate me with it a lot of ways.
It's like I say, Okay, so we we've been this
(11:27):
tense for a very long time. UM acknowledging that we're
not gonna make this any less tense tomorrow. It's not
that the goal is to not make this less tense.
The goal is to make this more right. And that
acknowledging that and accepting that, I think is the first thing.
And and I don't know what if it's in our conversation,
(11:47):
but I just wanted to make sure that was said. No,
if it's in our conversation, and that that's why you
want to talk about all the time, every day, all day, right,
And that's why we try to put it along all
the time. You know, when you talk about I'm don't
say genre bending, because it's not even what it is
any more. But people that are open to outside influences
inside the genre, like Hardy. And I saw your story
with Hardy. Yeah, yeah, I went to Whiskey Jamon had too,
(12:07):
and so I know Hardy a little bit. What is
your takeaway from from spending time with Hardy? He's a
rock star in the most authentic sense of it. And
I think that the journey for him is has been
backwards in some ways because there's a lot of reclamation
of like early two thousand's late nineties rock tropes that
(12:29):
he's finally come to a point in his career where
I think success allows you to be able to have
that space, to be able to say, Okay, I want
to make like a puddle of mud kid rock like
early two thousand's pop mainstream top forty record, and when
you hear like sold out, you're like, okay, Like you
(12:52):
can call it whatever you want, but I know that
that's a rock record, and I know that that identifies
him as a rock star and exactly everything that that
means is exactly what it means, and for him to
be able to do that, it's important, incredibly important, And
I think that that's part of the conversation if you
could say that, like you know Brelan is doing this
or Jimmy's doing that, and you know other artists are
(13:14):
doing whatever. To say that hard he's willing to be
a rock star in the country space is as important
and as necessary because we don't necessarily we haven't had
people fully embrace the rock thing like it's like you've
been a rock star, which youself to wear the cowboy hat,
you know, and there's none of that in Hardy's like
(13:34):
you know, like presentation right now. Where he gets the
cred that people go, you don't have to wear a
cowboy hat is that he writes great country songs, and
people go, well, he's country because he writes all these
great country songs exactly, and I think that there's value
in that. Is the same thing with him and with
Ernest too, and it says that Ernest was a rapper
long before he was a country artist. And in that
sense where it's like you can make music, but as
(13:56):
in some in some way, if your career touches an
intrinsic part of like the country like architecture, Like if
you're a writer or a producer or ranger or session musician, whatever.
If you do something else, that's fine, but if you
have a piece of that that is like authentically country.
(14:16):
And I think that that's where, like the Robber hits,
I think for me, what allowed me to push through
the first few years when I was constantly attacked for
not being country was that I grew up country. I'm
from a rural town that I wouldn't like go to
my home. I'd be like, go go to my home.
(14:37):
I'm for Washington, d C. You imagine me, I think
to your point, like eventually people are just like, all right,
we have to believe him because he's not somebody from
you know, uh Brooklyn. That's go and trust me. I'm
It's like, go listen to me talk, go to my home.
And that was only one but I had. I had that,
(14:58):
like I touched that. That was part of even though
I had all these other influences. Of course, of course,
you and I grew up in the napster, yes, and
I think we were the first generation two. We didn't
have to work very hard to be exposed other things.
We just had to be open to liking other things,
and that was pretty easy because it was all available.
So so I was a DJ in high school and
(15:19):
college and part of like when I graduating college, my
first job out of college was DJing at small bars
in and around like Georgetown and George Washington University area
about d C. And I was a DJ. I was
blessed to be DJ in late nineties and early two
thousand's because you would get like the C D books
and everything was in there, you know, like and you know,
(15:40):
I was typically playing college bars. So you're playing everything
from like Sweet Caroline to again like Limp Biscuit, and
then you're playing like House of Pain and method Man,
and you know, it's like all the same night. And
if you don't understand how to facilitate the transitions, you're
bad DJ. And that's like the last thing you want
(16:01):
to be. So like you start to just like intrinsically understand,
and you know, just LifeWise, I'm curious, intense curiosity. So
you know that that was just part and parcel of
it for me. Where did your love of country music
come from? Gonna win? Oh? Gosh? Okay? So I was
eight years old six um the year before for summer vacation.
(16:21):
My mom took myself, had a friend of mine to Florida.
We drove down from d C to Orlando to Disney World.
On the way back, our car broke down and we
had to fly back. My mother was like, I will
never incur that expense ever again to take you on vacation. Ever.
My that was the that was the that what she
got from it. No more vacations for you. Yeah, she
(16:42):
was like, she was like because she had to immediately
buy like four plane tickets. And she was like, that's crazy.
I'm not gonna do that. Like I grew up around
the quarter from Section eight housing. That was not going
to be a thing that my mother wanted to do.
So my aunt had won two double wise on the
prices right in, Yeah she wanted so she one like
she won. She won the pricing game and then she
(17:04):
did the double showcase showdown thing where you're within a
hundred dollars. Yeah, so she won like that you want
both showed out? Yeah, So yeah, so she had. So
there were two. There was a double ye trailer in
the pricing game and there was a double Ye trailer
in the showcase, so she had too. So she parked
them in Falling Waters, West Virginia, and we went up
there to like rent the trailers for two weeks. And
there was a family that lived across the path and
(17:26):
they had like the aluminum siding double ye like they
lived at the trailer park and they had two kids.
And they saw those women and her boyfriend and my
mother's boyfriend at the time, and my friend who was
with me lad the year Briar, Like they saw us
and they're like, oh, we have two kids, and if
you just want to hang out with your boyfriend all night,
like we could take your kids off your hands. And promptly,
(17:48):
I was sent across the path on Friday y Saturday
nights in Falling Waters, West Virginia. Whatever local TV you
know stations they had there, they would have he Hall,
followed by the grand Old Obry and this. I'm I'm
an eighties baby, so I kind of knew what country
music was. My mom watched Dallas, like I knew who
Kenny Rogers was by site, who Dolly Parton was by site,
Conway Twitty, but like you'd watch the hun Opery, and
(18:11):
these people like didn't look like countrypolitan eighties stars. They
looked like, you know, like the the you know, duty
suits and you know, like the like the square dancers
and with their taps and the whole get up. And
I'm like in tassels, and I'm like, these people look crazy.
And I'm eight years old, and I grew up where
I grew up, so I haven't heard a lot of
(18:32):
Southern accents in my life. So I'm like, these people
sound crazy, but I'm like the stories are incredible. So
I just became hooked and that's it's always kind of
trailed me in life. Like at every point in my life,
like I've always made time to like check in with
country music. Like so I had like a deep curiosity
(18:52):
and a passing knowledge of like whatever was pop of
the era. But like my my real wheelhouse was like
between like always say sixty and eighty three, that's my wheelhouse.
Those that's of stuff that like I'll always go back
to and listen to. Like it's like, yeah, this is
like if I'm like driving down the road or if
I'm like taking run or whatever. Like if you knocked
(19:14):
you over the head and grab my Spotify playlist, you'd
see a lot of that stuff. So West Virginia it
turns out to be kind of the birthplace a country
music love. Keith Whitley, like Dolly Parton, come Way Twitty,
like Kay Rogers. You know. Charlie Pride was like what
your mom think about her kid listen to country music?
(19:35):
Oh my god, mom hated it. Yeah, hated it. Oh
she hated it. She was like like every single trope
of like white redneck America. She like fostered whatever. I
would listen to country music for any extending period of time,
she'd be like, oh, well, you know they're all rednecks
or oh, like you know you should learn that's how
(19:57):
learn about the Civil War. Like I was like, well,
you know, if you if you listen to this music,
there's all these you know, their Confederates and and this
is how the Civil War happened. And I'm like ten
years old, and I'm like wow, really, but I'm like
look at that shirt. Oh, I'm like he look, Jesse
Colter looks really cool on TV. So what am I
(20:20):
supposed to do? So you listen to country music? But
probably also because that's the golden age, the birth of
hip hop. I mean that's when I so I did. Ah,
it's funny. I did a panel for UM Music bisin
conference and I was myself with one the duo um
The the ex girlfriend of Riz and her daughter are
(20:43):
in a country too. And when I was preparing them
for the thing, like she's you know, like obviously gotta
connection with New York hip hop. It's all like when
you think about like great storytellers, who pops in your
head and she goes, well, I think about She's like
I think about Slick Rick. And I was like, oh,
so we should get UPLI stage and do Children's Story.
And we did in front of like an entire room
(21:04):
of like you know, country music executives, and they look
at us, like and I was explaining the story of
the song and they're like, wow, it was I'm not
off the stage just when it comes up to me
and she goes, you know, I might like wrap. Now
she's like in her sixties. Clearly, I'm just like wow,
Like it took me to like explain to you, like
(21:25):
the first eight bars of children's story for you to
get it, okay, cool, whatever it takes right for me.
A good writer or even as a curator, they don't
have an agenda, but they have an agenda at the
same time to give people a different outlook or maybe
expose them in a different way. Yeah, you're you're dead
(21:47):
on with that. So so there's no agenda in that
you're going to create a story. But maybe and I'm
saying you, I'm just gonna do yeah, I'll do me.
I'll do me. No, we could do me. It's it
doesn't matter either way. So I don't want to just
some bull crap and make and give you some false facts.
But I definitely have a perspective constantly and consistently about
how I feel about this genre, and I've been praise
(22:10):
and ridiculed at the highest points. I'm both and I've
always had this perspective in its mind and I own it.
Now Here are you. You're here now and you're writing.
You are writing for the biggest, the most powerful publication
that writes on country music. So you have to have
that not an agenda to make things happen, but an
agenda to cover it from your perspective. It's a thing
(22:31):
with like so being God is my boss at the paper.
We had to sit down conversation like first day. He's like, well,
what do you think about the job? And I'm like, well,
we just have to cover the best music. And to me,
that's like so great greatest side. Like I saw Morgan
Wallan twice at the bridge Stone Arena. This is after
(22:53):
I spent most of last year like writing like honest,
hard hitting, brutal, real pieces about racism. But I'm like,
he also has four billion streams on Spotify, So like, yeah,
I'm gonna sit there for two nights because I need
to understand impartially because I care more about the job
(23:14):
and I care more about the readership of the Tennessee
and and I care about what anybody thinks about me
because I know, at the end of the day, I
have to have an unbiased, unfettered opinion about all of this.
If my opinion stops at Scent of country music and
there's point three of it that sells out sells twenty
(23:36):
five artists whom I think we're great, then I'm not
doing my job. So like, for me, that's the thing,
It's like, I'll do that. I'll also write about Joe Clark,
who's an amazing virtuo so like black lesbian guitarist who
like you know, I met at American Fest last year
and she's now playing with Alison Russell's band, All right
(23:58):
about her in the same space, Like that's what you do,
because it's like to me, I look at I have
a week, like I have a white board. It's like
the week of country music. And if I'm not covering,
to me, what are the most compelling stories that week?
Even once they pushed me and stretch me and make
me have to like step outside of myself or reconsider
(24:20):
things or notions that I would have outside of me
having this job. That's what I do. You know, I could,
like I said, I went to Whiskey Jams, like you know,
like a lot of my friends who like, you know,
look at me from DC or wherever else and they're like,
so you like went to like Whiskey jm for like
four hours and like sat there and like watch these
guys like play country music. I'm like yeah, and they're
(24:42):
like why, and I'm like, well, it's the culture of
the city. I'm like, if you actually go to Lower Broadway,
the music that Hardy and Earnest and Ben Burgers are
making kind of like defines the top one per cent
what Nashville is doing on some level, and I wouldn't
be doing my job, Like yeah, is it is it
(25:02):
a fascinating thing to do, of course, but that's the job,
So of course I go to do the job. I
do the job. First, is your agenda to cover the
most compelling music stories, Because somebody's agenda could be to
cover the newest like breaking artists, or to cover you know,
(25:23):
there's there's all yeah. So but to me, it's like
if if it's a it's a rule I have with
the new artists, right, because nobody's new a country everybody
takes like, you know, a decade to become news. It's
a beautiful thing. But to me, it's like, if you're
new and you're making the best music in my unbiased opinion,
(25:44):
then I'm going to have something to say about the
music that you were making, like unquestionably, And that's the thing.
It's like, like, for right now, I have like two
stories I'm working on about Pillbox Patty because Nicolette is
in a plus level writer and her music is expanding
the expectations of what women doing the genre in a
(26:05):
way that hasn't been expanded in like fifty years, and
I'm like, I have to cover that. And and she's new.
You know, she's if I walked down the street to
to the public's one percent of the people in publics
and know who she is. But am I gonna put
her into Tennessee and absolutely, Like she's making great music
and she's on the Ashley McBride album, and you know
(26:27):
she's got her stuff and you know she's she's working
and relevant. So that's why I look at it. I
saw he did a story on Ronnie Done absolutely because
he has a new record out. Yeah, what's your experience
personally like with Ronnie, Like you go to a room
and you meet him, how does Ronnie come off to you? Well,
for me, Ronnie Donne is like essential to country because people,
(26:52):
if you don't know country music, you would really wonder
why I would give a million craps about somebody from Oklahoma,
Like to me, Oklahoma, Texas, that area, that red dirt area,
that to me is like the bread and butter of
the genre. And Ronnie understands that space better than almost anybody.
(27:12):
He's like, unquestionably people want to ask by Neon Moon
is one of the greatest songs of all time because
it for a large part of an enormous genre in music.
That song best defines what that look, sound, feel and
(27:34):
texture of a of a of a culture feels like.
And when you talk to him, it's just like, it's funny.
He's the only person I've ever met who, if you
put him on too high of a pedestal, will immediately
lower himself to your level by talking. Like we were
talking and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah this, But you
(27:54):
have you heard Parker McCollum. He's on my record, and
he's like that guy he looks better, he looks like
he stepped out of the gym and I like, you
know his look because he's got that Texas thing going on,
and you're just like wow, because it's the funny thing
I learned from him, was like, especially, it's the thing
that I love about country is that you could be
(28:14):
at the pinnacle of the space, but because you feel
competition every day, because Nashville is that kind of town.
Were like, somebody could have forty five number one hits
and somebody has fifty tw walks in the room right
after them. Like you're always competing, You're always working, so
you're always comparing yourself to whatever you feel is the newest, hottest, youngest,
(28:37):
most relevant thing because you're almost like trying to figure out, well,
where do I compare and my better or my worst
or what could I do to like meet or exceed
that level. I don't want you to stay in names,
because I wouldn't say names if you ask me this question, either,
But do you ever because you get to sit down
and get intimate with these folks usually go to a
(29:00):
place where they're comfortable, and when they're comfortable, they get
comfortable faster. Yeah you ever said with someone and go
all right? This person is not even really in this
They're they're putting on something that's completely false just to
make a buck, or because they couldn't they couldn't hit
it somewhere else. It's it's a funny thing with me
when it comes to interviewing, because you've you, I have
(29:21):
interviewed you, you've been in and you've sat across from me.
My job is to pull down your barrier before we
even asked the first serious question. If I can't pull
down the barrier, then I know that, like I know
something about this person is not at all legitimate or
(29:45):
relevant in what they're trying to do or trying to accomplish.
And I find ways to make sure that I meet
my subject wherever they are in their creative process and
what they're doing. Like that, to me is more important
than anything like understanding, like, Okay, you make music because
(30:07):
you just want to meet cool girls. A lot of
people who make country music because they want to meet
cool girls. They want to meet a life, they want
to have three kids in a you know, four car garage,
and that's it. And if I could find that in
that person and we dive in on that, and then
I'll work back way into the music and all the
other stuff I need. Then that's an interview of value
(30:29):
because I've I've found something about this person where I
know that I'm going to get pure, honest, unadulterated facts
and for them, when I come at them at that
level half of the interview, sometimes I feel like they're
like off put because they're like, wait, how does this
guy know that about me? That is strange and weird?
(30:53):
And I've never really told anybody that, but and that
just comes from me from years of just like observing people.
Like music is people. You know, It's like if you
sing a song or you write a song, something of
yourself is in that song, and me, as a journalist,
my job is to like figure that thing out and
expose it to the whole world and hopefully that impacts
(31:19):
there development or their fan base or their economic bottom
line or whatever. I don't know if it was strategy
by you, because if it was, it was an awesome
I wonder if I just happened to be the luck
of the day. But you know, you were here and
you interviewed me, and I had done fifty five interviews
in a row, and so I came in and I
had no my bearer had me eat a way any
barrier that I even wanted a house. I was exhausted,
(31:40):
But it's the best place to get me because I
just don't care anymore. I don't care for the most
part anyway, For the most part, I when it comes
to you and me were the same person, were opposite
sides of the same coin. And it took me like
a day of just like looking at the YouTube channel
and going, oh, I think I know Bobby Boes pretty well,
(32:03):
like and then I realized you were forty two and
forty four so and now I realize you're a cultural
influenced mine, And I'm like, there's a lot of similarities here.
And I'm like, if I just talk to you point
blank straight, there's something about like the way that you
create magic when you interview people, in the way I
try to create magic where I read people, where I'm like,
something really special could occur. Well, you asked me something
(32:24):
no one's ever asked me before. And again, as you've
done three thousand interviews, and I've done many myself. I've
been interviewed many times. It's rare when something new happens.
And so I'm sitting here and we're talking about a
good time. I like h word and most interviews go
look at this, you did best sellers, look at you,
you did this show you did and are like, which
one watch favorite what? And you went what do you
(32:45):
what do you not have? And I was like, oh,
that's refreshing, Okay, set up straighter and I want to
get I remember getting like fired up, not at you,
at the fact that I'd never get to host the
A c MRC, amazed because I live with that. I
was just with a friend of mine who is so
upset that I'm not going to attach an agenda to them,
um that they are not asked to perform at the
(33:07):
c M A or a c M and they have
a ton of number ones and they and this person
is like, I don't get it, like I've done everything,
and I'm like bro or sis same And I was
talking about my interview with you, and I said, you
know what, I'm I've complained about it internally. We've had
all the meetings, have all the credentials requirements and um.
But because of whatever political things happening behind the scenes,
(33:31):
this person and myself in different worlds. But they're they're
they're a big star and and so you asked me that,
and I went, oh, I'd like to share this now.
Thank you for asking. I've never appreciated because it's like
because to me, it's like it's the satil page like
hit it word eight thing you know where it's like
that's what I think about all the time when I
(33:52):
think about those things. It's like if you because it's
like I've talked to like Quincy Joe's and I've talked
to like so I give you example. My very first
interview I ever did, like when I was like in journalism,
like I am in music journalism, this is what I do,
was with Tina Marie. My mother raised me on Tina Marie.
(34:12):
She's like, in my mind, there's at a certain age
in my life there was no more beautiful woman on
planet Earth the Tina Marie. And walk into her hotel
room to interview her, and she's done everything that I
would ever think that somebody who you know, makes R
and B should do. So I'm just like okay, and
it's like so it was funny. It's like the first
(34:33):
thing I asked her, like off the record, I'm like,
is there anything that Rick didn't do? For you, Rick James,
that you wish he would have done at a certain point,
and she just stops and she looks at me and
she goes, I don't know, and then like all of
a sudden, like the interview starts and there's like this
outpour of all of these things that she did later
in her career that she wishes that this person who
(34:58):
is intrinsically related to like the start of her career
would have done then so that she didn't have to
do them then. And it was this weird perspective switch,
and that's like, that's like that's like a two inside
baseball probably for people watching. Yeah, but no, it's okay,
I guess it works then. But that's the thing. It's like,
so I always go back to that, And it's like
anytime I sit in a room with somebody who I
(35:19):
know has done like everything, it's like I go back
to like little points like that, know, the little points
where it's like it's the thing is either that you
gloss over that you realize are bigger later in life
or the things that you literally just don't have that
are the things that create the compelling point that like
because for me, like I also try to make everybody
(35:41):
really human, because like I said, music is human, so
I try to make everybody human. And I'm like, okay,
so like and I know you have a giant fan
base of people who tune in, watch, subscribe, whatever. And
I'm like, okay, so like the value here and also
like for the Tennessee and subscriber based like you know,
public Occation'm gonna see and dot com one dollar for
(36:02):
six months. That's the whole thing. Like that's my job,
Like do it, Marcus, make it happen. And I'm like
all right, So I know, I'm like, all right, there
has to be something of like extraordinary value, and typically
that's the personal. So I'm like, okay, well I need
to find something personal about somebody. I'm like, well that
that might yield something. And then when you said what
you said, I was like, well, okay, all right, that's that.
(36:24):
That's the thing. I feel good about it because I
have no problem going anywhere personal and it's been asked.
I have offered it, it's been asked. But yes that
and I was like, I felt like it'side my ribs.
I got a little warm, and I was like all right, no,
I've never been asked this, I'm pretty passionate. I have
a reason to talk about it because I didn't just
bring it up, no, of course, like I and that's
that was the that's the fun of it. Like that's
(36:46):
the fun of the interview process and being a journalist
when like, like I've done like three thousands of these
things now. So it's like when you get to that
point where you know and if you make a push
it's gonna hit something like you don't really you can't
ever go into an interview knowing what you're going to hit,
Like you can have a list of questions in the
(37:07):
back of your head, like I want to talk about
this and this and that and that, like I'm sneaking
the grass and I want to talk about the show
and country music. And it's like, okay, wait, so if
I ask about this, I feel I folded. I'm like, okay,
we can push here. Maybe something will come out of this.
I don't know, and there's something does and I'm like, oh,
all right, here we go. You know, do you ever
(37:33):
have we experienced this pretty recently where someone's like, hey,
I would like to do a little pee like the
PR team riches, I would love to interview them, but
you know, they don't want to talk about this, and
you're like, no, but if they don't talk about that,
then I can't talk with them because pits. So I
get that all the time actually because this country music,
so you know, And the thing with me is that
(37:57):
that's why I do research, because I could do an
entire interview with somebody and not mentioned the thing, but
I could talk about a whole bunch of other stuff
that's fascinating about somebody and still have it have value
even without that obvious big thing that we're not supposed
(38:18):
to discuss, like you know, the hidden thing. It's like,
especially if it's an artist who has like like done
something over a period of time, because typically it's like
legacy artists, they have those like well, don't ask about
that thing or this thing. But it's like, well, they
also did like a hundred other things. And I also understand,
like in any space that I work in, whether it's
(38:39):
been hip hop or ETM or whatever, like I understand
culturally what's going on in the space, and I'm like, okay,
so let's me fine, Like the value for this person
to this space. It's like that's why, like interviewing like
eighties and nineties country stars right now. That's one of
that's one of the coolest parts for me about like
cm Fest, for instance, when they're like, hey, you get
to talk the ship and doa and Sarah Evans today,
(39:01):
and I'm like, yo, all right, like let's go, and
they're like really like they're they're played first in a second,
and but I'm like no, no, no, no no. I'm like,
if you ask any artist who wants to get to
where Sarah Evans is about their interest in Sarah Evans,
they want to know, like they really need like that answer.
(39:23):
So like, maybe I'm not doing this interview for like
ten trillion people to be able to do it for
like five female artists who are aspiring to get to Nashville.
But if that yields a generational pop country crossover superstar
because they heard Sarah Evans say I use Mariah Carey
for vocal cues, then we we've done. We've achieved a
(39:45):
bigger thing, and that's stuff that matters, you know, like
on some level, like this can't all just be like
you know, like gossiping through away journalism, Like not that
there's anything wrong with that, because it's there's a certain
market for that too. But on some level, like you
have to do something that has some kind of now
you somewhere, you'll still take and do the interview. If
they're like, we don't wanna talk about this, You'll still
do it and just find another way. Oh yeah, you're
(40:06):
a better person. I don't like, I'm out and I
don't even have to ask about it, man, Like it's
because a lot of this for me is like understand,
like I'll laugh at because I'm like, I like watch
Crooked Chase a lot as a kid. They're coming in
and a few weeks amazing, Like you know, so I
would watch these shows, and for me, when I get
(40:26):
the opportunities, it's the one thing that like, and you're
getting me back now because I'm saying that I've ever
said before. It's the one thing for me that always
gets me is like I have the moment that I
saw on TV happen in my life. That's always cool.
So it's like if it's like insert artists here, they
don't want to talk about this, that and that, but
(40:47):
did I see them get interviewed in two thousand and
four on CMT, Yeah, Okay, Well, I want to interview
in two thousand and twenty two, because heck, like I
watched that interview back then, and I had questions I
would have to ask, and I obviously would have never
imagined that a time would have come in my life
(41:09):
for that would have been an opportunity thing to do.
Most viral interview you've ever done, Oh god, um, yeah,
I did one with Walker Hayes at um so funny
they were walking. Everybody asked Walker the same set of
questions like Applebee's TikTok dancing, and nobody had asked him
(41:31):
what he thought about having to get to a point
in his career where learning how to use social media
was the most important thing. Like it blew my mind.
I'm like, that's the obvious question. Like he's been here
for seventeen years. When you get to a point where
you have to pick up a telephone, you can't like
(41:52):
go into a writer's room, Like the thing that defines
your career is I'm gonna pick up this telephone and
I'm gonna do this dance and it's gonna fit the
song and it's gonna amplify my career. Nobody asked him
that question, So I asked him a question at a
c M S and it did big numbers. And I
was very happy to see that because that's the thing
that I'm talking about, because it's like on some level
(42:12):
two for me, as like a writer and creator in
the digital era, you have to be able to like
look at the trends and say, okay, so like I
can't do like not to throw anybody under a bus,
But I can't do like seven thirty PM TV journalism.
I cannot. That is not a thing that I am
equipped to do. The many things I can do, that
(42:33):
is not one of them. So I'm like my take
on it is I'll do it if you force me,
but I'm gonna try to find like the blind spot
in that whole space and make that the push of
my work. Like if you want me to do it,
I'll do it, but I'm gonna do it this way.
And every so often I hit a I, I hit
ALEG and it's it's a good look. I was talking
to Kathy like Gifford a couple of days ago. She
(42:55):
was talking about interview Martin Short and she was asking
about his wife and she was like, A, you guys
are such a great couple. Show ended. Uh, his wife
had died a year ago of cancer, but she didn't
know that. She was asking him, are your wife? How
is she? But he didn't want embarrass her on TV,
so he waited till the show was over, and he
was like, hey, listen, I know you didn't know, but
my wife died a year ago of cancer. And she
was like, that's the biggest, like the dumbest question I
(43:18):
ever asked. And she's like, I'm prepared, and I guess
I just she just knew them and so she didn't
look Yeah, you're you ever getting one of those situations.
Oh god, this is so funny story. I wasn't c
m A and Lingy Wilson is an artist I have
like written a lot about as she's had her moment
so earlier that day, like the big announcement had come
(43:40):
out about her and Yellowstone and I'm doing this interview
and this is this has proofd the research that I do.
I had like a whole set of questions I wanted
to ask lady in my head and her prs looking
at me and going like she's like off camera like
looking at me, like you're not asking I need you
to ask the question. About Marcus, like and I'm asking
(44:00):
about every other thing under the sun and Jesus talking
and it's glib. It's a good conversation. And then we
get done and she goes, Marcus, I need thirty more
seconds of camera, and I'm like why, and she's like
yellow Stone, and so I like pulled up my phoot
I said, yell, oh crap, okay, sorry. Like it happened
in the period of times from like the period that
(44:22):
like I had stopped doing my research to like the
moment I had her own camera, this thing had been announced,
and that one tiny window about her, the biggest thing
about her in a long time, it happened, and I
was just like, so we get back on camera. It
was fine, and it's like it was edited just fine.
But for me, it's like those those are the moments
that happened where I'm like because it's like you you
work so hard, do you think you got it? And
(44:43):
then it's like a little, little tiny things. But I
think that that's the thing that happens to a lot
of artists that I interview, because I end up like,
because okay, so red carpets of debate in my existence, Uh,
there's no worse place to do an interview than in
three minutes on the red carpet. But we do them
all the time because it's a whole part of the
(45:03):
word show experience. So you find these like older acts
who get asked like the same six questions, like you know,
it's like so like Sarah Evans and us. Sarah's a
perfect example, Like she gets asked about SuDS and bucket
like a hundred million times, and she has like the
same ninety seconds dip it. So it's like I stopped
her and I asked her about like her like vocal quality,
(45:26):
and she looked at before a second like I had
invented fire. She was like, oh yeah, yeah, And then
I had another question. It was like not about soudn't
or any of her her like spade of hits that
people typically ask her about, and she gives the same
ninety second questions, and so we get to the end
of it and ninety second answer, and then at the
(45:47):
end of it, I asked about like you know, like yeah,
it's like, you know, I don't think these songs and
how do you feel about like, you know, people like
having these moments when you hear your music Now twenty
years later and then you get done. She's like, I
appreciate that interview, Like, well, yeah, you know, it's the
least you can do, like because a lot of times
you find with those older artists, like people will do
that kind of like short sighted research and no miss
(46:07):
giant things, which is not ask questions that are reflective
of somebody's like breath of scope of work. Next week,
I was We've had some issues here at home, so
I'm not being able to do that. But I was
going to l A to do a g T, not
to perform, but to do some Snake in the Grasp
promo and be part of the show. And I was
(46:28):
looking forward to seeing the girl che which I was
introduced to a couple of years ago. They had sang
the national anthem at an event and I was like, wow,
there's pretty good. So Mike and I started playing them
on my Women and Country Music show, and so we've
played them pretty consistently for an inconsistent show where I
can't play people two weeks in a row really for
the most part, and so we started playing Chappel hard
(46:50):
and loading them up and people would ask questions, but
we played that song, did we played the Joliant song
though yeah fo yeah, way way before it's a hit. Yeah,
so weever in that like a hit. So they you know,
they go on a g T and they get the
gold ticket and so I was looking like, look at
you guys that this is awesome. Um, you talk to
them pretty recently. Yeah, where are they now? What what
(47:13):
mental space are they in? So it's funny with them,
like to give you, to give you a scope of
like my time with them. When I started at CMT
last year, they were next Woe in the country. Um.
I saw them playing Annapolis, Maryland, and I introduced them
on stage. So like I and and they're at a
place where they are over prepared for success. Um. I
(47:38):
put them in the same group that I put Madeline Edwards,
Minko Marks and artists who are like vastly Wendy Moton too,
who are vastly over prepared for the moment, Lane Wilson
and there as well, like people who like who always
show up as if their moment is about to occur,
(47:59):
like that that's been Chapel Hearts grind Um. They're they
are charismatic. They understand how to do three part harmonies
better than probably anybody else like in in the space
like they are that good. Uh, they have a stage
performance that is great because again, when you're at that
(48:19):
point of doing this for as long as they have
been doing it and doing it in the spaces that
they've had the opportunity to do it, and like they
tore parts of the country that are like died in
wool like country music spaces, and that's what they know.
It's not like they like came from some other genre
or they're like country artists that are you know, like
a lot of black country artists get pigeonholed into being
(48:40):
on you know, neo soul or R and B showcases
and you know they're like playing their guitar and trying
to fit. But no, Chapel Heart plays like country places
like they're like Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama, like that's Oklahoma, Texas.
Like they're they're in it, and so they're just like ready,
they're overright, like they're having fun. Like I called them
(49:01):
the day after it happened. I call it like their
manager and got them on the phone and I'm like
how is it And they're like great, oh my god,
Like we did it. And finally it's happening, and I'm
like yeah, and it's it's a cool thing. It's because
it's like the same thing with Windy mouton on the voice,
Like after Windy had her mom went on the voice,
I would call her up and be like, how are
you and she's like, yeah, it's finally happening, Oh my god.
And it's it's a cool thing to see when people
(49:24):
who are overprepared for success are able to just execute
at the highest level and slay it out of the gate.
It'll be interesting to see what happens after the show.
And I think I have an interesting perspective because one
I worked on American Idol for four years and I
would see these kids or young adults wind and you
(49:45):
only got a brief window to capitalize on that because
then nobody cares again, right, so you have it. So
I was able to watch it work there. But then
I also won Dancing with the Stars, where I had
a brief window in that world of the l a
TV world to capitalized because soon nobody cared again. And
so my advice as always to folks who go on
a show like this is you finished the show, like
(50:08):
you're not going to come away out of this and
be a big star. Well, you gotta grab on and
hold on and grind is that next step up. Don't
try to jump three steps because you can get that
next up right now. You get it's handed to you.
The best play that they made was making the direct
offered to the Opery as soon as they got the
golden ticket, like brilliant, and they got it. And I'm
(50:30):
going to be covering that when Septembar e teen they
make their like opre debut, which again they had, they
had that window. They said, let's pick our one or
two things that we can and they hit it. That
that was a home run moved by them to go,
we're not gonna go. We want to headline to c M.
As they went, we want to play the Opery. That
(50:51):
is an elevation and we think we can get that
right now. And Dan Rodgers is not unaware and Jordan
Pettitt they're not unaware, and they know what the deal
is and you know, like I I I am. It's
it's one thing with like reparational equity in Nashville right now,
like where people are showing up not because oh God,
(51:12):
George Floyd whatever, protests black lives matter, like you know,
like you know, all of all of those like few
requisite things were two years past that now now it's
just the thing where like if you put certain acts
on stage, especially black female acts, for the most part,
these are people who show up and blow away your
(51:32):
stage in a way that like is within the established conversation,
is not like you know, like brilliant to like at
the operay, like within the conversation, but also expanding it
in a way that isn't troubling or difficult to the
established audio. Always say like you can go to the
opery that is country music. Like those people like people
(51:54):
to go to the operate and sit there like that's
that's country. And if they're like standing ovation, you're okay.
You don't get that free, absolutely not. I don't care
what you look like, you don't get that for free.
It's interesting that you know where you talk about Nashville,
(52:18):
and I have found that just giving people chances, and
we've seen a lot of black artists. They've been given
chances in the last two or three years, more so
than I've ever seen. And it's just about exposure, right
for me, because I'm being exposed now, I'm going and honestly,
(52:43):
I don't put anybody on my show just because they're
a black artist. Sometimes I get in trouble for that,
but I'm like, why would this is? You can tell
me that I'm completely wrong here. I never want to
take someone I don't care man woman. Because this was
happening with the female artist as well. They're like, just
put all artists on. I was like, but if I
put a female artist on, that doesn't come on and crush,
(53:03):
everybody's gonna go. That's why we don't put female artists on.
And so I would get hammered, of course. And listen,
I was touring, I was taking out female artist. I
was doing whole concerts at a send. But I just
couldn't allow myself to highlight someone that I felt like
me highlighted them would hurt the cause more than a
quick highlights would help. To me, the coolest thing right
(53:25):
now is John Party taking Laney Wilson and Haley Winters
out on the roade with him, and you already know,
like you put them on a stage, it's like it's
it's it's a done deal. It's a rap, like they're
gonna it's Tierra. Yeah, right, exactly I mean that that
to me is I watched Tierra. I don't I didn't
know she had sent a video in a couple of
(53:46):
years prior that I thought was so good. We played
it on the show, but I didn't even connect him right,
And I'm talking to her, She's like and she's so country.
It's you remember when I sent that video in And
I was like, I'm no what you're talking about. And
so we played it and I was like wow, and
just to watch her and I and she opened some
shows for me here and I'm taking her to the
Today Show in a couple of weeks. But it's not
(54:09):
it's not because she's a black artist. No, she's great
because she's great. But I do appreciate the fact that
people are working to expose more anything that doesn't allow
itself to be exposed naturally and generously, right, Like I mean,
because it's for me. It's like again, it gets back
to that point for me with having the best music
into space, Like that's my job at the beginning, middle
(54:31):
and end on the Nashville Country Reporter, So I report
about the best music in space. So like, yeah, you know,
it's like I all I tell young, especially because young
Black artists always talk to me and say, well I
think I'm ready, and I'm like, okay, well I'll send
them like Old King for instance, Like I said, somebody,
oh King recently and I said, okay, that's the standard.
Where are you towards that? And I'm like, frankly, like, frankly,
(54:55):
compare what you're doing on every scope to what she's doing,
not because she's like because it's great, Like that's the
standard for me right now for the thing that you're
trying to do. And it's like, oh, so you think
I could get there? And I'm like, well, I wouldn't
send it to you if I didn't think you could
get there, Like if I didn't think that that was
a navigable jump for your artistic creativity and your presentation.
(55:16):
And you're like, you know, Candor and everything, like you
know you can that that's the thing you can you
can reach. So for me, this that's the next layer
of this conversation is once you get into space, where
is your growth in that space? And how are you
getting resources? Like everyone else is getting to allow yourself
to grow, right, And but the resources are there. That's
(55:37):
the thing if you if you show up like if
you show up like Madeline Edwards showed up in two
thousand and twenty two, like your yeah, every all the
all the resources will be in your hands, so ultimately
that it is up to you to to make those
leaps because the resources are there, Like it's like, it's there.
I always tell people this. I say, there are no
(55:59):
closed wars in this city anymore. There may be closed
minds in those rooms, but there are no closed doors.
And that's the thing that has changed since the first
time I came here in February one in a musical
like capacity, you know, I wrote The Giants CMT Charlie Pride.
And to see that change has been heartening. And to me,
(56:22):
it's like when you deal with closed minds, that's just
the level of like people that are stodgy about talent anyway.
So there, so that's like, that's the next thing. But
there's no closed doors. There's people were closed minds behind
those doors, but the doors are certainly open. Now. What'd
you write today? Anything good? Oh? Yeah? So? Um, what's
the what's the guy's name who just had a hundred
(56:43):
number one thing was passed? He played? I can't think
any guy's name, but um, guitar was in A and
R two. Yeah, but I just wrote I wrote about him.
I what else did I write about that was good? Um,
A little big town. I sat down with them, Yeah,
(57:05):
for Mr. Sun, which is a great which is a
great record that's coming out. I interviewed them. I also
I'm working on something about actual Me Pride record on Lindaville,
which I'm sure you've heard it. I don't listen anything
before it comes out. I'm not you. No one depends
on me for what you They don't. They don't. They
(57:26):
they depend on you for pre and priming them for
what they're about to get into. People depend on me
for reaction. Yeah, No, it's it's I I explained that
to somebody recently. It's funny you bring that up, like,
because somebody was like trying to like figure out why
it looked like we had good chemistry, and I'm like, well,
we're like freaking frack. It's like I opened the door,
(57:48):
you walk through it, and Bobby's there. That's the way
it should work. Like if I opened the door and
you walk through, then Bobby's there. And if I opened
the door and you walk through and Bobby's there and
Bobby is only going to be there because I said
it was good and that's the way you should work.
And they're like, wow, that makes sense, and I'm like, yeah,
that's kind of what we do. Like that's that to
(58:09):
me is hopefully where this heads in this town. Like
that's one of my my great hopes next steps from
my career at least. Well, I appreciate what you do.
You know, we we generally don't have a lot of
journalists writers, I know, but I thank you. I think
going back to when I mentioned agenda, I am in
(58:31):
line with your agenda. Thank you. And I can appreciate
how hard it is because I don't do it the
same way you do it, and I don't take at
times the risks that you take, nor do you take mine.
But I can respect yours because I know what it's
like to have to take them. But I just think
what you do is needed here. I like you as
a person, and all that kind of worked down the
ven diagram of right in the middle of boom, let's
(58:51):
have him on. So I just love I told Mike,
I was like, well, let's get Marcus on, Like that
does awesome. Seriously, I sincerely appreciate it like, um, like,
are one of the reasons why I'm here. That's not true. No,
it is, It's not true. There are they are, like
there are like five people in this house right now. Yes,
you're the reason. I'm the reason you're in and so like. No,
because as an outside observer, I watched you take flak
(59:14):
and I feel like you take flak like in a
way that is unnecessary. And it's only because there's very
few people that are willing to leap as much as
you're willing to leap, because that's well, at the at
the end of the day, it's very conservative place and
maintaining a status quo. There's a certain economic bottom line
(59:35):
that's you know, benefited by people maintaining status quo, and
to take leaps in the midst of that is incredibly difficult,
but necessary if we're going to expand the genre and
the culture of country music as we have. So I'm like,
I know what I want to do a country music
This is me in two thousand and twenty, in the
middle of the pandemic, like, you know, trying to figure
(59:57):
out like my next move as a journalist and country
was it, Like, you know, if Bobby could survive ish
in Nashville. Then I'm like, I could possibly be okay,
like thinking the way that they can moving the way
I want to move. So it's it's it's really hardening
(01:00:18):
to hear you say that because it makes me feel
like I'm doing something halfway right, last saying, well, a
lot of respect from me and from this entire room,
and you guys follow if anything, just for the fashion influence,
Marcus k out, just look at the pit. I don't
even know how you have because I bet you that
I've given you a clothing budget at all, not at all.
So all like this is this is a mix of
(01:00:40):
like getting like a pandemic check and not and not
spending it smartly. Um, this is a mix of like
doing a lot of TV writing during the pandemic and
doing a lot of like work that required me to
like just sit around and steer it walls. Like I mean,
I've done stuff any networks and CMT, VIACOM, DC government whatever.
(01:01:05):
So like I wore a lot of hats and again,
like at the beginning of the pandemic, I thought we
would never go outside again, so I just started stockpiling
clothes because on Instagram and on the internet, like people
were just like selling things that like ridiculous discounts. So
like the shirts from this place called Halls and Curtis,
and they had this deals that were like four shirts
(01:01:26):
for a hundred and fifty dollars. And I love Elvis,
and I couldn't find high collar Elvis shirts anywhere on
the internet. And then I found this one place in
Great Britain. It had high color Elvis shirts and I'm like,
they have an amazing deal. Wow, I'm gonna buy. And
then they said and they sat in my closet for
a year. And then once we started getting out into
the world, and I'm like, wait, like going out into
the world is not gonna be like a celebration. We're
(01:01:48):
just gonna have to go out every day like we
used to. And I'm looking at my closet like this
is all I really have at this point, Like I
knew that, like when COVID happened, I'm like, this is
the end of the world, this is the end of times.
This is a terrible end of you know, like or
like capitalistic like you know, nightmare or whatever scenario we're in. No, No,
(01:02:10):
we're just gonna kind of go back to things, and
I'm like this whole closet, So I gotta, I gotta,
I have to at were you not the thing before
a pandemic? Like I was just no, not really like
I was. Country music made it all made sense. Um,
all the pieces were there, like anybody who knew me,
(01:02:30):
Like all of the pieces that kind of came together
in this space, we're all there. They just didn't have
any commonality, Like I can't wear collared shirts in d
M spaces, not when I'm like at you know, like
underground raves in Washington, d C. At three o'clock in
(01:02:54):
the morning, Like wearing this shirt, I'm going to ruin
this shirt. So wearing a T shirt is definitely ideal,
Like wearing like bootcut jeans in the middle of the
North Like doing whatever I'm doing in hip hop and
R and B, I'm going to get left out of
the room. Like that's just gonna happen. So like you know,
like eventually coming in the country, Like it just kind
(01:03:16):
of like people don't understand, like this is not a
professional move or not some kind of like socio political
thing that I'm trying to do because it's the wave
and so cool whatever whatever, it's like, no, this is
actually just weirdly how I view the world works for
(01:03:36):
me best in this space, Like anybody who knows me
will tell you my my ideal form of life exists
between there's some of the most golden eras in global history.
The music sounds great, the fashion is amazing, the culture
is incredible. Like there's freedom and social movement and the
(01:03:57):
ability to be like, you know, a free thinker and
a do thing. Things differently existed then and I lived there,
always have, always will. So like when country allows you
to do this every day and nobody blinks an eye,
why what is I you know, like would? And then
it's like it falls into the thing where I can
do it for every day for the rest of my life,
(01:04:18):
Like okay, you don't. You don't have to ask me twice,
you know, like you know, well following Marcus, thank you,
Kay Dowling. It's amazing. It's every day I'm like, well,
I gotta put a comment on that it looks great.
And it's one after the other. It's all comments and
me going, you look wonderful, looking good, thank you sincerely,
Like have you watched the rehearsal yet? On HBO? Max yes,
(01:04:40):
yes you have Wait wait you think about it. It's good,
isn't it. It's great? I love it, like I um.
I started watching it last week. I mean I watched.
When I watched the first episode, I was jealous of
what nath Than had done because I went, I mean,
you're five layers deeper than I've ever been. And it's
(01:05:04):
one of those where it's just an appreciation of and
it's for those that don't know what it is. It's
called the Mike. You watch the rehearsal yet I haven't
started yet. Now. I thought it was honestly thought it
was a scripted show at first. Nathan Nathan for you guys,
on the scripted show, it ain't. He gets with people
who about to make big life decisions and he rehearses
it with them, and it's so it's so much deep.
(01:05:26):
It's it's crazy. As a as a person who like
you know, like mixes psychology with everything I do. Like,
I'm just like, yeah, this is this is beautiful. I
was sitting next to my wife and I was like,
I can't believe it. Did that does amaze? She was
like shut up. I was like all right, sorry, sorry.
She goes just do just watch this shows that it's
that it's that fact when people who get around us,
(01:05:46):
who don't like approach this at the layer that we
have to approach it at. Like I always told people that, like, yeah,
you look at things milecularly, but like I live with
the molecule. So it's like there's a layer that you
just you could never imagine because this that exists. I
think she also wanted to shut up and stop yelling.
I think I have been doing that on the lower
volume level two. It's probably been Okay, you're probably not
(01:06:06):
You're probably not wrong. Marcus, good to see it. Buckets
of admiration, A hand them all to you now, and
same to you following Marcus followers work subscribe to the
Tennessee and yeah, all the things that he's sending me
three dollars okay, and also telling me now you're not
handing me the money. I'm kidding. Yeah, I'll tell you.
I have. I have a podcast coming with the paper.
It's called The Tradition Myself from lebron Hill. He's an
(01:06:27):
award winning opinion writer. Is the feed up yet to
subscribe to or were announce? It is a It is
a pre announcement it is forthcoming. We are six episodes in.
There's an episode with low Cast, there's an episode with
Wendy Moten, there's one with Walker Hayes, Bluncle Brown, Lisla
Fram It's awesome, It's gonna be it's good, It's it's
gonna be a fun time. I have an episode where
I talked about my love with Teddy Pendergrass and how
(01:06:48):
he could have been a country star. Like it's it's
it's it's it's really been. Uh when is that happening?
It should be up within the month, all right, Yeah,
so like why the time this is out, like it'll
you'll you'll come back to it and it will be out.
So well, if you ever am like we'd like to
really scrape. I volunteered. I don't do a lot of
podcasts are on my own, but I'd be happy to come.
Thank you if you ever, if you find a different reason,
(01:07:10):
I'm a thousand percent having you on that just goes
outside there he is Marcu's good to see you, buddy.
Same here
Episode three sixty with Marcus Dowling, who is a great,
great writer who is really on the scene in country
music right now. He talks about the format, the genre,
where it's going, where it's been. He's worked on a
lot of different formats. It's interesting to hear his story
about being in West Virginia and being introduced to country music.
You know, he's done three thousand interviews over fifteen years,
(00:23):
So I always like to bring in someone in a
matter of fact, she just interviewed me for when I
did Snake in the Grass. That's how I met him,
and I went in. I was like, Dange, this guy.
He's really good. But there's a lot of good people,
but there was something about him, and I think I
mentioned it. He asked me a question I've never been
asked before. And it wasn't just that, because you can
ask me a lot of questions. I've never been asked,
like what color is a dog's liver? I don't know,
(00:45):
I've never been asked that before, but he was like
it was right on. I was like, da, that's a
great question. So he's just done so much. And I
don't want to say a whole lot here because I
think he says most of it. Mike, any takeaway from
this interview, I mean it felt like a master class
in like country music. That was really good. He is
the Nashville country music reporter for the Tennessee In, which
is part of the USA Today Network, which basically is
(01:06):
the biggest country music writer in America, and was the
recipient of the Rolling Stone Chat Flipball Award for Excellence
and Country music Journalism. What I want to say too
is gonna be very vague. We had to cut something
from this because there's another award dish thing happening, and
he we talked about it, but he can't talk about
it right now. But can't. Yes, but he's very decorated.
I hope you enjoyed this because I definitely did. Marcus
(01:29):
Dowling follow him Marcus K. Dowling on Instagram and Twitter,
And here we go, episode three sixty. Well, now we've
flipped roles because the last time I was in the
same room, and you're putting to be pretty good in
a good way. Yeah, No, I'm here for it. I
think before we continue on, let's so I met you.
Because I don't want to measure a position up. You're
(01:50):
like King Dingling a country music that's all King Dingling writer,
I am the Nashville country musical for at the Tennessee,
which actually sounds really cool and their substance there. But
it's even bigger than that in my mind, because a
lot of your stuff gets put in the USA Today
because this is the hub. Yeah, this is the Nashville.
(02:12):
Nashville is the Tennessee hub for the USA Today network,
which is owned by Gannett. So it's a whole, like
multi tiered system. And since Nashville is the Tennessee Hub
or since whatever, and you're running country music, that's that's
your that's your whole yes area, yes, yes, like girl,
I think on your on your cards or your your
(02:33):
digital card. Now I should just say King Dingling of
writers for country music, you can have that. I'd let
you have it. I wish I appreciate it, Like I mean,
it's funny because I work with Matt lan Cooler and
Dave Paulson at the Paper and they've been in the
space as well for a long long time, so it's
a funny thing. It's like I came into this and
(02:56):
was around a lot of bloggers and younger writers who
were like oh country music. I love it and really excited.
And then when I interviewed at the paper, I met
with Matt and Dave, and as like a journalistic in general,
I'm like, like, those guys are great, and it was
it was the first moment where it was like, oh,
so like I can actually like at my age and
(03:16):
feel comfortable into that and feel like this is the
level that I was supposed to be at all along.
So it's it's it's fascinating just some of the stories
that I've seen because I started following you on Instagram
after we met. We went away, and I was like, dang,
like like, I liked you, thank you. I get interviewed
by folks all the time, but I was like, day,
(03:37):
I like him. I don't follow anybody interviews me. I
appreciate that. And I was like, that's cool. I liked him.
So I followed you, and then I started to see
your stories because I follow your Instagram account, which, by
the way, is it's just your name at Marcus with
the C K Dowling d w L. I n g Oh,
there's a kid Marcus K. Dowling. Yeah, k okay, so
Marcus K. Dowling and he puts these little things up
and it looks like a mini version of a written story.
(03:59):
It's a little digital deal. And I saw one and
you were with jelly Roll, yes, and so I would
like to hear your takeaway from your time with jelly Roll,
because I spent some time with jelly Roll as well.
It's funny with jelly So I worked in hip hop
for gosh over a decade, and I became aware of
(04:19):
jelly Roll in two thousand and tennish when he was
I think he was just he had just stopped working
with Juicy J and h working with Hypnotized Mind Records,
I think. And it was him a little white and
a couple other like you know, trap rappers were renowned
independent Southern trap rappers. And I knew who he was
(04:41):
and I was like, okay, this is cool, and like
you got incarcerated, went away. He came out of prison
and he popped back up on my radar like almost
like indie rock thing, and I was like, okay, it
was the same guy. And then I listened to the
songs and I was like, okay, there's there's like legitimacy
here and it's not just like okay, kind of like
(05:02):
throwaway blog ready trapped rock kind of thing. And then
I dug even deeper and I was like, Okay, So
at the same time that he was having his rise,
yellow Wolf was having his rise. He had a song
called Pop the Trunk that I adore. Who I knew
yellow Wolf from being interested by eminem way back in
the day. Yes, exactly right. So I was like, Okay,
(05:23):
So he has legitimacy of my eyes from way prior
to this moment right now. And for me, the thing
about him that's important is that he's able to synergize
on a very street level and country rock hip hop
hasn't operated on a street level ever before. And the
Antioch thing that he's into right now, like that's his
(05:46):
like his reps, his community that's very much out of
hip hop, and he's doing this thing in rock and country,
like he has a number one rock song and very
soon that will be a number one country song. And
for a country to have that kind of street level legitimacy,
I think the closest that I could think of to
it is like if you talk about like William, those
guys in Austin and you know, mid seventies, like that's
(06:08):
the closest thing to it, but it's different because it's
got that hip hop flavor to it, So it's a
different swagger. What about some of the the Atlantic country guys though,
like a little I wouldn't say as my little well,
like like Zach Brown for example. Yeah, yeah, but I
think that's different in the sense that Zack doesn't have
like a hip hop a true like deep embedded hip
(06:29):
hop like legitimacy, like I know, but Willy Willie didn't
have it, right, That's what I'm saying. It was different, right, Yeah,
I was saying is there is definitely different in the
sense that that hip hop swagger has not been present
in the space probably ever in this way, right. I
guess my only thing when you're referencing Willie was people
that stay in their home, right, rep their home hard
(06:51):
and don't really go where everybody else's they have to go.
And and that's not even a hip hop thing. But
it's rare in country music, right, I mean it's on
some level. You see it with old be making in
the same way here. Yeah, he's got a whole record,
So what do you think of what do you think
about a jelly role? I'm a huge fan Um. I
(07:12):
think he's um. To me, he is Country's answer to
Biggie and what in what regard charismatic and and and
sensual and in a way that you're not expecting. Like,
I'm forty four, so I still remember when Biggie was
a breaking artist and like reading about him in a
(07:32):
source and like seeing on MTV for the first time,
seeing him on BT for the first time, and You're like,
there's something about this guy is an allure there, and
then there's also obvious talent and you you don't get
that mix of alluring talent in that frame of body.
That's a very rare thing. And to me, he has
that in SPADs and to be able to have that
(07:53):
in Country, which has already been trending towards hip hop already,
there's a space that he can uniquely occupy. That is
there that I don't think necessarily a lot of people see,
but I I feel it when I see him. I'm like, this,
this guy is Biggie, like he he is, you know,
for me, coming with my background into this space, being
able to like see that and know that and reflect that.
(08:14):
I hope that that adds some kind of value to
his development. I liked him because he was very authentic.
And there's a difference then being authentic about the things
you want to be authentic about and then just going
what what what do you want? We'll do it all.
And I can tell us someone who gets interviewed and
does a lot of interviews, when someone is being authentic
(08:38):
about the things they want to be authentic about, or
they're just a for real person and I'll dance with
you wherever you want. And I like even when I
feel like the most authentic person at times will go
you know, I'd rather not talk about that because they
would rather not and they're being honest, but they'll tell
you and everything else is wide open. A lot of folks,
it's it's it's almost like it's the opposite of what
(08:59):
it should be. I feel like the most real people,
if you get to a place that they don't want
to talk, they'll just go ahead, I don't want talk
about it, instead of like faking you out a little bit. Yeah,
but I think he's a person that has markedly less
to lose than anybody else in the top country space
by by a large margin. I think you and I
are similar in that we grew up on country music,
(09:19):
but we worked in other places for a long time.
Like you know, I grew up in Arkansas. My grandmother
shoved country music down my throat when I was a young,
young kid, and I thought what was contemporary? I thought,
I thought it was a new country, and it wasn't.
It was her country, right, And so then I get
tow Olver thirteen, and I'm like, all right, I still
love it. I'm a listen to it, but I'm gonna
go do it. I'm gonna do some alternative stuff. I'm
(09:40):
just some hip hop stuff, you know. And I worked
in pop and alternative radio, I worked in hip hop.
So I feel blessed to have like all these tentacles
that have been exposed to other things that allow me
to see things a bit differently or or able to
see transitions. Now where we are. It's it's I think
it's why people either love you gonna hate you, because
(10:01):
in country there's not that acknowledgement of having a breadth
of influence. Because again I always tell people, country is
ninety five years old as a musical genre. It is
arguably the oldest pop musical genre in the space like pop,
Like you know, people say to blues whatever, but it's
like popular, like you know, mainstream music country, and so
(10:23):
troubling that and trying to think about that and look
at that from different perspectives frustrates people, or it makes
it incredibly excited because you know, but it's a very
much line in the sand conversation, or I feel like
they're ill educated because country music came from basically two places,
the slave ships and Europe exactly. It's two out influences
that came over to the States, and people they're like,
(10:44):
we don't like our outside influence. Country music is all
outside interface. But even that is a collision that is awkward,
that's troubled by you know, like American history. So it's like, okay,
So it's like you have like people who are from
a folk background in Appalachia, and you have of you know,
black people who bring their brandes over from Africa, and
(11:05):
that's troubled by slavery as a concept, so and in reality,
and when you combine those things together, that's obviously a
point of real tension. And it's always always been tense
um for me. It's like when I talk about, like,
you know, like the Black country movement, a thing that
people obviously like associate me with it a lot of ways.
It's like I say, Okay, so we we've been this
(11:27):
tense for a very long time. UM acknowledging that we're
not gonna make this any less tense tomorrow. It's not
that the goal is to not make this less tense.
The goal is to make this more right. And that
acknowledging that and accepting that, I think is the first thing.
And and I don't know what if it's in our conversation,
(11:47):
but I just wanted to make sure that was said. No,
if it's in our conversation, and that that's why you
want to talk about all the time, every day, all day, right,
And that's why we try to put it along all
the time. You know, when you talk about I'm don't
say genre bending, because it's not even what it is
any more. But people that are open to outside influences
inside the genre, like Hardy. And I saw your story
with Hardy. Yeah, yeah, I went to Whiskey Jamon had too,
(12:07):
and so I know Hardy a little bit. What is
your takeaway from from spending time with Hardy? He's a
rock star in the most authentic sense of it. And
I think that the journey for him is has been
backwards in some ways because there's a lot of reclamation
of like early two thousand's late nineties rock tropes that
(12:29):
he's finally come to a point in his career where
I think success allows you to be able to have
that space, to be able to say, Okay, I want
to make like a puddle of mud kid rock like
early two thousand's pop mainstream top forty record, and when
you hear like sold out, you're like, okay, Like you
(12:52):
can call it whatever you want, but I know that
that's a rock record, and I know that that identifies
him as a rock star and exactly everything that that
means is exactly what it means, and for him to
be able to do that, it's important, incredibly important, And
I think that that's part of the conversation if you
could say that, like you know Brelan is doing this
or Jimmy's doing that, and you know other artists are
(13:14):
doing whatever. To say that hard he's willing to be
a rock star in the country space is as important
and as necessary because we don't necessarily we haven't had
people fully embrace the rock thing like it's like you've
been a rock star, which youself to wear the cowboy hat,
you know, and there's none of that in Hardy's like
(13:34):
you know, like presentation right now. Where he gets the
cred that people go, you don't have to wear a
cowboy hat is that he writes great country songs, and
people go, well, he's country because he writes all these
great country songs exactly, and I think that there's value
in that. Is the same thing with him and with
Ernest too, and it says that Ernest was a rapper
long before he was a country artist. And in that
sense where it's like you can make music, but as
(13:56):
in some in some way, if your career touches an
intrinsic part of like the country like architecture, Like if
you're a writer or a producer or ranger or session musician, whatever.
If you do something else, that's fine, but if you
have a piece of that that is like authentically country.
(14:16):
And I think that that's where, like the Robber hits,
I think for me, what allowed me to push through
the first few years when I was constantly attacked for
not being country was that I grew up country. I'm
from a rural town that I wouldn't like go to
my home. I'd be like, go go to my home.
(14:37):
I'm for Washington, d C. You imagine me, I think
to your point, like eventually people are just like, all right,
we have to believe him because he's not somebody from
you know, uh Brooklyn. That's go and trust me. I'm
It's like, go listen to me talk, go to my home.
And that was only one but I had. I had that,
(14:58):
like I touched that. That was part of even though
I had all these other influences. Of course, of course,
you and I grew up in the napster, yes, and
I think we were the first generation two. We didn't
have to work very hard to be exposed other things.
We just had to be open to liking other things,
and that was pretty easy because it was all available.
So so I was a DJ in high school and
(15:19):
college and part of like when I graduating college, my
first job out of college was DJing at small bars
in and around like Georgetown and George Washington University area
about d C. And I was a DJ. I was
blessed to be DJ in late nineties and early two
thousand's because you would get like the C D books
and everything was in there, you know, like and you know,
(15:40):
I was typically playing college bars. So you're playing everything
from like Sweet Caroline to again like Limp Biscuit, and
then you're playing like House of Pain and method Man,
and you know, it's like all the same night. And
if you don't understand how to facilitate the transitions, you're
bad DJ. And that's like the last thing you want
(16:01):
to be. So like you start to just like intrinsically understand,
and you know, just LifeWise, I'm curious, intense curiosity. So
you know that that was just part and parcel of
it for me. Where did your love of country music
come from? Gonna win? Oh? Gosh? Okay? So I was
eight years old six um the year before for summer vacation.
(16:21):
My mom took myself, had a friend of mine to Florida.
We drove down from d C to Orlando to Disney World.
On the way back, our car broke down and we
had to fly back. My mother was like, I will
never incur that expense ever again to take you on vacation. Ever.
My that was the that was the that what she
got from it. No more vacations for you. Yeah, she
(16:42):
was like, she was like because she had to immediately
buy like four plane tickets. And she was like, that's crazy.
I'm not gonna do that. Like I grew up around
the quarter from Section eight housing. That was not going
to be a thing that my mother wanted to do.
So my aunt had won two double wise on the
prices right in, Yeah she wanted so she one like
she won. She won the pricing game and then she
(17:04):
did the double showcase showdown thing where you're within a
hundred dollars. Yeah, so she won like that you want
both showed out? Yeah, So yeah, so she had. So
there were two. There was a double ye trailer in
the pricing game and there was a double Ye trailer
in the showcase, so she had too. So she parked
them in Falling Waters, West Virginia, and we went up
there to like rent the trailers for two weeks. And
there was a family that lived across the path and
(17:26):
they had like the aluminum siding double ye like they
lived at the trailer park and they had two kids.
And they saw those women and her boyfriend and my
mother's boyfriend at the time, and my friend who was
with me lad the year Briar, Like they saw us
and they're like, oh, we have two kids, and if
you just want to hang out with your boyfriend all night,
like we could take your kids off your hands. And promptly,
(17:48):
I was sent across the path on Friday y Saturday
nights in Falling Waters, West Virginia. Whatever local TV you
know stations they had there, they would have he Hall,
followed by the grand Old Obry and this. I'm I'm
an eighties baby, so I kind of knew what country
music was. My mom watched Dallas, like I knew who
Kenny Rogers was by site, who Dolly Parton was by site,
Conway Twitty, but like you'd watch the hun Opery, and
(18:11):
these people like didn't look like countrypolitan eighties stars. They
looked like, you know, like the the you know, duty
suits and you know, like the like the square dancers
and with their taps and the whole get up. And
I'm like in tassels, and I'm like, these people look crazy.
And I'm eight years old, and I grew up where
I grew up, so I haven't heard a lot of
(18:32):
Southern accents in my life. So I'm like, these people
sound crazy, but I'm like the stories are incredible. So
I just became hooked and that's it's always kind of
trailed me in life. Like at every point in my life,
like I've always made time to like check in with
country music. Like so I had like a deep curiosity
(18:52):
and a passing knowledge of like whatever was pop of
the era. But like my my real wheelhouse was like
between like always say sixty and eighty three, that's my wheelhouse.
Those that's of stuff that like I'll always go back
to and listen to. Like it's like, yeah, this is
like if I'm like driving down the road or if
I'm like taking run or whatever. Like if you knocked
(19:14):
you over the head and grab my Spotify playlist, you'd
see a lot of that stuff. So West Virginia it
turns out to be kind of the birthplace a country
music love. Keith Whitley, like Dolly Parton, come Way Twitty,
like Kay Rogers. You know. Charlie Pride was like what
your mom think about her kid listen to country music?
(19:35):
Oh my god, mom hated it. Yeah, hated it. Oh
she hated it. She was like like every single trope
of like white redneck America. She like fostered whatever. I
would listen to country music for any extending period of time,
she'd be like, oh, well, you know they're all rednecks
or oh, like you know you should learn that's how
(19:57):
learn about the Civil War. Like I was like, well,
you know, if you if you listen to this music,
there's all these you know, their Confederates and and this
is how the Civil War happened. And I'm like ten
years old, and I'm like wow, really, but I'm like
look at that shirt. Oh, I'm like he look, Jesse
Colter looks really cool on TV. So what am I
(20:20):
supposed to do? So you listen to country music? But
probably also because that's the golden age, the birth of
hip hop. I mean that's when I so I did. Ah,
it's funny. I did a panel for UM Music bisin
conference and I was myself with one the duo um
The the ex girlfriend of Riz and her daughter are
(20:43):
in a country too. And when I was preparing them
for the thing, like she's you know, like obviously gotta
connection with New York hip hop. It's all like when
you think about like great storytellers, who pops in your
head and she goes, well, I think about She's like
I think about Slick Rick. And I was like, oh,
so we should get UPLI stage and do Children's Story.
And we did in front of like an entire room
(21:04):
of like you know, country music executives, and they look
at us, like and I was explaining the story of
the song and they're like, wow, it was I'm not
off the stage just when it comes up to me
and she goes, you know, I might like wrap. Now
she's like in her sixties. Clearly, I'm just like wow,
Like it took me to like explain to you, like
(21:25):
the first eight bars of children's story for you to
get it, okay, cool, whatever it takes right for me.
A good writer or even as a curator, they don't
have an agenda, but they have an agenda at the
same time to give people a different outlook or maybe
expose them in a different way. Yeah, you're you're dead
(21:47):
on with that. So so there's no agenda in that
you're going to create a story. But maybe and I'm
saying you, I'm just gonna do yeah, I'll do me.
I'll do me. No, we could do me. It's it
doesn't matter either way. So I don't want to just
some bull crap and make and give you some false facts.
But I definitely have a perspective constantly and consistently about
how I feel about this genre, and I've been praise
(22:10):
and ridiculed at the highest points. I'm both and I've
always had this perspective in its mind and I own it.
Now Here are you. You're here now and you're writing.
You are writing for the biggest, the most powerful publication
that writes on country music. So you have to have
that not an agenda to make things happen, but an
agenda to cover it from your perspective. It's a thing
(22:31):
with like so being God is my boss at the paper.
We had to sit down conversation like first day. He's like, well,
what do you think about the job? And I'm like, well,
we just have to cover the best music. And to me,
that's like so great greatest side. Like I saw Morgan
Wallan twice at the bridge Stone Arena. This is after
(22:53):
I spent most of last year like writing like honest,
hard hitting, brutal, real pieces about racism. But I'm like,
he also has four billion streams on Spotify, So like, yeah,
I'm gonna sit there for two nights because I need
to understand impartially because I care more about the job
(23:14):
and I care more about the readership of the Tennessee
and and I care about what anybody thinks about me
because I know, at the end of the day, I
have to have an unbiased, unfettered opinion about all of this.
If my opinion stops at Scent of country music and
there's point three of it that sells out sells twenty
(23:36):
five artists whom I think we're great, then I'm not
doing my job. So like, for me, that's the thing,
It's like, I'll do that. I'll also write about Joe Clark,
who's an amazing virtuo so like black lesbian guitarist who
like you know, I met at American Fest last year
and she's now playing with Alison Russell's band, All right
(23:58):
about her in the same space, Like that's what you do,
because it's like to me, I look at I have
a week, like I have a white board. It's like
the week of country music. And if I'm not covering,
to me, what are the most compelling stories that week?
Even once they pushed me and stretch me and make
me have to like step outside of myself or reconsider
(24:20):
things or notions that I would have outside of me
having this job. That's what I do. You know, I could,
like I said, I went to Whiskey Jams, like you know,
like a lot of my friends who like, you know,
look at me from DC or wherever else and they're like,
so you like went to like Whiskey jm for like
four hours and like sat there and like watch these
guys like play country music. I'm like yeah, and they're
(24:42):
like why, and I'm like, well, it's the culture of
the city. I'm like, if you actually go to Lower Broadway,
the music that Hardy and Earnest and Ben Burgers are
making kind of like defines the top one per cent
what Nashville is doing on some level, and I wouldn't
be doing my job, Like yeah, is it is it
(25:02):
a fascinating thing to do, of course, but that's the job,
So of course I go to do the job. I
do the job. First, is your agenda to cover the
most compelling music stories, Because somebody's agenda could be to
cover the newest like breaking artists, or to cover you know,
(25:23):
there's there's all yeah. So but to me, it's like
if if it's a it's a rule I have with
the new artists, right, because nobody's new a country everybody
takes like, you know, a decade to become news. It's
a beautiful thing. But to me, it's like, if you're
new and you're making the best music in my unbiased opinion,
(25:44):
then I'm going to have something to say about the
music that you were making, like unquestionably, And that's the thing.
It's like, like, for right now, I have like two
stories I'm working on about Pillbox Patty because Nicolette is
in a plus level writer and her music is expanding
the expectations of what women doing the genre in a
(26:05):
way that hasn't been expanded in like fifty years, and
I'm like, I have to cover that. And and she's new.
You know, she's if I walked down the street to
to the public's one percent of the people in publics
and know who she is. But am I gonna put
her into Tennessee and absolutely, Like she's making great music
and she's on the Ashley McBride album, and you know
(26:27):
she's got her stuff and you know she's she's working
and relevant. So that's why I look at it. I
saw he did a story on Ronnie Done absolutely because
he has a new record out. Yeah, what's your experience
personally like with Ronnie, Like you go to a room
and you meet him, how does Ronnie come off to you? Well,
for me, Ronnie Donne is like essential to country because people,
(26:52):
if you don't know country music, you would really wonder
why I would give a million craps about somebody from Oklahoma,
Like to me, Oklahoma, Texas, that area, that red dirt area,
that to me is like the bread and butter of
the genre. And Ronnie understands that space better than almost anybody.
(27:12):
He's like, unquestionably people want to ask by Neon Moon
is one of the greatest songs of all time because
it for a large part of an enormous genre in music.
That song best defines what that look, sound, feel and
(27:34):
texture of a of a of a culture feels like.
And when you talk to him, it's just like, it's funny.
He's the only person I've ever met who, if you
put him on too high of a pedestal, will immediately
lower himself to your level by talking. Like we were
talking and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah this, But you
(27:54):
have you heard Parker McCollum. He's on my record, and
he's like that guy he looks better, he looks like
he stepped out of the gym and I like, you
know his look because he's got that Texas thing going on,
and you're just like wow, because it's the funny thing
I learned from him, was like, especially, it's the thing
that I love about country is that you could be
(28:14):
at the pinnacle of the space, but because you feel
competition every day, because Nashville is that kind of town.
Were like, somebody could have forty five number one hits
and somebody has fifty tw walks in the room right
after them. Like you're always competing, You're always working, so
you're always comparing yourself to whatever you feel is the newest, hottest, youngest,
(28:37):
most relevant thing because you're almost like trying to figure out, well,
where do I compare and my better or my worst
or what could I do to like meet or exceed
that level. I don't want you to stay in names,
because I wouldn't say names if you ask me this question, either,
But do you ever because you get to sit down
and get intimate with these folks usually go to a
(29:00):
place where they're comfortable, and when they're comfortable, they get
comfortable faster. Yeah you ever said with someone and go
all right? This person is not even really in this
They're they're putting on something that's completely false just to
make a buck, or because they couldn't they couldn't hit
it somewhere else. It's it's a funny thing with me
when it comes to interviewing, because you've you, I have
(29:21):
interviewed you, you've been in and you've sat across from me.
My job is to pull down your barrier before we
even asked the first serious question. If I can't pull
down the barrier, then I know that, like I know
something about this person is not at all legitimate or
(29:45):
relevant in what they're trying to do or trying to accomplish.
And I find ways to make sure that I meet
my subject wherever they are in their creative process and
what they're doing. Like that, to me is more important
than anything like understanding, like, Okay, you make music because
(30:07):
you just want to meet cool girls. A lot of
people who make country music because they want to meet
cool girls. They want to meet a life, they want
to have three kids in a you know, four car garage,
and that's it. And if I could find that in
that person and we dive in on that, and then
I'll work back way into the music and all the
other stuff I need. Then that's an interview of value
(30:29):
because I've I've found something about this person where I
know that I'm going to get pure, honest, unadulterated facts
and for them, when I come at them at that
level half of the interview, sometimes I feel like they're
like off put because they're like, wait, how does this
guy know that about me? That is strange and weird?
(30:53):
And I've never really told anybody that, but and that
just comes from me from years of just like observing people.
Like music is people. You know, It's like if you
sing a song or you write a song, something of
yourself is in that song, and me, as a journalist,
my job is to like figure that thing out and
expose it to the whole world and hopefully that impacts
(31:19):
there development or their fan base or their economic bottom
line or whatever. I don't know if it was strategy
by you, because if it was, it was an awesome
I wonder if I just happened to be the luck
of the day. But you know, you were here and
you interviewed me, and I had done fifty five interviews
in a row, and so I came in and I
had no my bearer had me eat a way any
barrier that I even wanted a house. I was exhausted,
(31:40):
But it's the best place to get me because I
just don't care anymore. I don't care for the most
part anyway, For the most part, I when it comes
to you and me were the same person, were opposite
sides of the same coin. And it took me like
a day of just like looking at the YouTube channel
and going, oh, I think I know Bobby Boes pretty well,
(32:03):
like and then I realized you were forty two and
forty four so and now I realize you're a cultural
influenced mine, And I'm like, there's a lot of similarities here.
And I'm like, if I just talk to you point
blank straight, there's something about like the way that you
create magic when you interview people, in the way I
try to create magic where I read people, where I'm like,
something really special could occur. Well, you asked me something
(32:24):
no one's ever asked me before. And again, as you've
done three thousand interviews, and I've done many myself. I've
been interviewed many times. It's rare when something new happens.
And so I'm sitting here and we're talking about a
good time. I like h word and most interviews go
look at this, you did best sellers, look at you,
you did this show you did and are like, which
one watch favorite what? And you went what do you
(32:45):
what do you not have? And I was like, oh,
that's refreshing, Okay, set up straighter and I want to
get I remember getting like fired up, not at you,
at the fact that I'd never get to host the
A c MRC, amazed because I live with that. I
was just with a friend of mine who is so
upset that I'm not going to attach an agenda to them,
um that they are not asked to perform at the
(33:07):
c M A or a c M and they have
a ton of number ones and they and this person
is like, I don't get it, like I've done everything,
and I'm like bro or sis same And I was
talking about my interview with you, and I said, you
know what, I'm I've complained about it internally. We've had
all the meetings, have all the credentials requirements and um.
But because of whatever political things happening behind the scenes,
(33:31):
this person and myself in different worlds. But they're they're
they're a big star and and so you asked me that,
and I went, oh, I'd like to share this now.
Thank you for asking. I've never appreciated because it's like
because to me, it's like it's the satil page like
hit it word eight thing you know where it's like
that's what I think about all the time when I
(33:52):
think about those things. It's like if you because it's
like I've talked to like Quincy Joe's and I've talked
to like so I give you example. My very first
interview I ever did, like when I was like in journalism,
like I am in music journalism, this is what I do,
was with Tina Marie. My mother raised me on Tina Marie.
(34:12):
She's like, in my mind, there's at a certain age
in my life there was no more beautiful woman on
planet Earth the Tina Marie. And walk into her hotel
room to interview her, and she's done everything that I
would ever think that somebody who you know, makes R
and B should do. So I'm just like okay, and
it's like so it was funny. It's like the first
(34:33):
thing I asked her, like off the record, I'm like,
is there anything that Rick didn't do? For you, Rick James,
that you wish he would have done at a certain point,
and she just stops and she looks at me and
she goes, I don't know, and then like all of
a sudden, like the interview starts and there's like this
outpour of all of these things that she did later
in her career that she wishes that this person who
(34:58):
is intrinsically related to like the start of her career
would have done then so that she didn't have to
do them then. And it was this weird perspective switch,
and that's like, that's like that's like a two inside
baseball probably for people watching. Yeah, but no, it's okay,
I guess it works then. But that's the thing. It's like,
so I always go back to that, And it's like
anytime I sit in a room with somebody who I
(35:19):
know has done like everything, it's like I go back
to like little points like that, know, the little points
where it's like it's the thing is either that you
gloss over that you realize are bigger later in life
or the things that you literally just don't have that
are the things that create the compelling point that like
because for me, like I also try to make everybody
(35:41):
really human, because like I said, music is human, so
I try to make everybody human. And I'm like, okay,
so like and I know you have a giant fan
base of people who tune in, watch, subscribe, whatever. And
I'm like, okay, so like the value here and also
like for the Tennessee and subscriber based like you know,
public Occation'm gonna see and dot com one dollar for
(36:02):
six months. That's the whole thing. Like that's my job,
Like do it, Marcus, make it happen. And I'm like
all right, So I know, I'm like, all right, there
has to be something of like extraordinary value, and typically
that's the personal. So I'm like, okay, well I need
to find something personal about somebody. I'm like, well that
that might yield something. And then when you said what
you said, I was like, well, okay, all right, that's that.
(36:24):
That's the thing. I feel good about it because I
have no problem going anywhere personal and it's been asked.
I have offered it, it's been asked. But yes that
and I was like, I felt like it'side my ribs.
I got a little warm, and I was like all right, no,
I've never been asked this, I'm pretty passionate. I have
a reason to talk about it because I didn't just
bring it up, no, of course, like I and that's
that was the that's the fun of it. Like that's
(36:46):
the fun of the interview process and being a journalist
when like, like I've done like three thousands of these
things now. So it's like when you get to that
point where you know and if you make a push
it's gonna hit something like you don't really you can't
ever go into an interview knowing what you're going to hit,
Like you can have a list of questions in the
(37:07):
back of your head, like I want to talk about
this and this and that and that, like I'm sneaking
the grass and I want to talk about the show
and country music. And it's like, okay, wait, so if
I ask about this, I feel I folded. I'm like, okay,
we can push here. Maybe something will come out of this.
I don't know, and there's something does and I'm like, oh,
all right, here we go. You know, do you ever
(37:33):
have we experienced this pretty recently where someone's like, hey,
I would like to do a little pee like the
PR team riches, I would love to interview them, but
you know, they don't want to talk about this, and
you're like, no, but if they don't talk about that,
then I can't talk with them because pits. So I
get that all the time actually because this country music,
so you know, And the thing with me is that
(37:57):
that's why I do research, because I could do an
entire interview with somebody and not mentioned the thing, but
I could talk about a whole bunch of other stuff
that's fascinating about somebody and still have it have value
even without that obvious big thing that we're not supposed
(38:18):
to discuss, like you know, the hidden thing. It's like,
especially if it's an artist who has like like done
something over a period of time, because typically it's like
legacy artists, they have those like well, don't ask about
that thing or this thing. But it's like, well, they
also did like a hundred other things. And I also understand,
like in any space that I work in, whether it's
(38:39):
been hip hop or ETM or whatever, like I understand
culturally what's going on in the space, and I'm like, okay,
so let's me fine, Like the value for this person
to this space. It's like that's why, like interviewing like
eighties and nineties country stars right now. That's one of
that's one of the coolest parts for me about like
cm Fest, for instance, when they're like, hey, you get
to talk the ship and doa and Sarah Evans today,
(39:01):
and I'm like, yo, all right, like let's go, and
they're like really like they're they're played first in a second,
and but I'm like no, no, no, no no. I'm like,
if you ask any artist who wants to get to
where Sarah Evans is about their interest in Sarah Evans,
they want to know, like they really need like that answer.
(39:23):
So like, maybe I'm not doing this interview for like
ten trillion people to be able to do it for
like five female artists who are aspiring to get to Nashville.
But if that yields a generational pop country crossover superstar
because they heard Sarah Evans say I use Mariah Carey
for vocal cues, then we we've done. We've achieved a
(39:45):
bigger thing, and that's stuff that matters, you know, like
on some level, like this can't all just be like
you know, like gossiping through away journalism, Like not that
there's anything wrong with that, because it's there's a certain
market for that too. But on some level, like you
have to do something that has some kind of now
you somewhere, you'll still take and do the interview. If
they're like, we don't wanna talk about this, You'll still
do it and just find another way. Oh yeah, you're
(40:06):
a better person. I don't like, I'm out and I
don't even have to ask about it, man, Like it's
because a lot of this for me is like understand,
like I'll laugh at because I'm like, I like watch
Crooked Chase a lot as a kid. They're coming in
and a few weeks amazing, Like you know, so I
would watch these shows, and for me, when I get
(40:26):
the opportunities, it's the one thing that like, and you're
getting me back now because I'm saying that I've ever
said before. It's the one thing for me that always
gets me is like I have the moment that I
saw on TV happen in my life. That's always cool.
So it's like if it's like insert artists here, they
don't want to talk about this, that and that, but
(40:47):
did I see them get interviewed in two thousand and
four on CMT, Yeah, Okay, Well, I want to interview
in two thousand and twenty two, because heck, like I
watched that interview back then, and I had questions I
would have to ask, and I obviously would have never
imagined that a time would have come in my life
(41:09):
for that would have been an opportunity thing to do.
Most viral interview you've ever done, Oh god, um, yeah,
I did one with Walker Hayes at um so funny
they were walking. Everybody asked Walker the same set of
questions like Applebee's TikTok dancing, and nobody had asked him
(41:31):
what he thought about having to get to a point
in his career where learning how to use social media
was the most important thing. Like it blew my mind.
I'm like, that's the obvious question. Like he's been here
for seventeen years. When you get to a point where
you have to pick up a telephone, you can't like
(41:52):
go into a writer's room, Like the thing that defines
your career is I'm gonna pick up this telephone and
I'm gonna do this dance and it's gonna fit the
song and it's gonna amplify my career. Nobody asked him
that question, So I asked him a question at a
c M S and it did big numbers. And I
was very happy to see that because that's the thing
that I'm talking about, because it's like on some level
(42:12):
two for me, as like a writer and creator in
the digital era, you have to be able to like
look at the trends and say, okay, so like I
can't do like not to throw anybody under a bus,
But I can't do like seven thirty PM TV journalism.
I cannot. That is not a thing that I am
equipped to do. The many things I can do, that
(42:33):
is not one of them. So I'm like my take
on it is I'll do it if you force me,
but I'm gonna try to find like the blind spot
in that whole space and make that the push of
my work. Like if you want me to do it,
I'll do it, but I'm gonna do it this way.
And every so often I hit a I, I hit
ALEG and it's it's a good look. I was talking
to Kathy like Gifford a couple of days ago. She
(42:55):
was talking about interview Martin Short and she was asking
about his wife and she was like, A, you guys
are such a great couple. Show ended. Uh, his wife
had died a year ago of cancer, but she didn't
know that. She was asking him, are your wife? How
is she? But he didn't want embarrass her on TV,
so he waited till the show was over, and he
was like, hey, listen, I know you didn't know, but
my wife died a year ago of cancer. And she
was like, that's the biggest, like the dumbest question I
(43:18):
ever asked. And she's like, I'm prepared, and I guess
I just she just knew them and so she didn't
look Yeah, you're you ever getting one of those situations.
Oh god, this is so funny story. I wasn't c
m A and Lingy Wilson is an artist I have
like written a lot about as she's had her moment
so earlier that day, like the big announcement had come
(43:40):
out about her and Yellowstone and I'm doing this interview
and this is this has proofd the research that I do.
I had like a whole set of questions I wanted
to ask lady in my head and her prs looking
at me and going like she's like off camera like
looking at me, like you're not asking I need you
to ask the question. About Marcus, like and I'm asking
(44:00):
about every other thing under the sun and Jesus talking
and it's glib. It's a good conversation. And then we
get done and she goes, Marcus, I need thirty more
seconds of camera, and I'm like why, and she's like
yellow Stone, and so I like pulled up my phoot
I said, yell, oh crap, okay, sorry. Like it happened
in the period of times from like the period that
(44:22):
like I had stopped doing my research to like the
moment I had her own camera, this thing had been announced,
and that one tiny window about her, the biggest thing
about her in a long time, it happened, and I
was just like, so we get back on camera. It
was fine, and it's like it was edited just fine.
But for me, it's like those those are the moments
that happened where I'm like because it's like you you
work so hard, do you think you got it? And
(44:43):
then it's like a little, little tiny things. But I
think that that's the thing that happens to a lot
of artists that I interview, because I end up like,
because okay, so red carpets of debate in my existence, Uh,
there's no worse place to do an interview than in
three minutes on the red carpet. But we do them
all the time because it's a whole part of the
(45:03):
word show experience. So you find these like older acts
who get asked like the same six questions, like you know,
it's like so like Sarah Evans and us. Sarah's a
perfect example, Like she gets asked about SuDS and bucket
like a hundred million times, and she has like the
same ninety seconds dip it. So it's like I stopped
her and I asked her about like her like vocal quality,
(45:26):
and she looked at before a second like I had
invented fire. She was like, oh yeah, yeah, And then
I had another question. It was like not about soudn't
or any of her her like spade of hits that
people typically ask her about, and she gives the same
ninety second questions, and so we get to the end
of it and ninety second answer, and then at the
(45:47):
end of it, I asked about like you know, like yeah,
it's like, you know, I don't think these songs and
how do you feel about like, you know, people like
having these moments when you hear your music Now twenty
years later and then you get done. She's like, I
appreciate that interview, Like, well, yeah, you know, it's the
least you can do, like because a lot of times
you find with those older artists, like people will do
that kind of like short sighted research and no miss
(46:07):
giant things, which is not ask questions that are reflective
of somebody's like breath of scope of work. Next week,
I was We've had some issues here at home, so
I'm not being able to do that. But I was
going to l A to do a g T, not
to perform, but to do some Snake in the Grasp
promo and be part of the show. And I was
(46:28):
looking forward to seeing the girl che which I was
introduced to a couple of years ago. They had sang
the national anthem at an event and I was like, wow,
there's pretty good. So Mike and I started playing them
on my Women and Country Music show, and so we've
played them pretty consistently for an inconsistent show where I
can't play people two weeks in a row really for
the most part, and so we started playing Chappel hard
(46:50):
and loading them up and people would ask questions, but
we played that song, did we played the Joliant song
though yeah fo yeah, way way before it's a hit. Yeah,
so weever in that like a hit. So they you know,
they go on a g T and they get the
gold ticket and so I was looking like, look at
you guys that this is awesome. Um, you talk to
them pretty recently. Yeah, where are they now? What what
(47:13):
mental space are they in? So it's funny with them,
like to give you, to give you a scope of
like my time with them. When I started at CMT
last year, they were next Woe in the country. Um.
I saw them playing Annapolis, Maryland, and I introduced them
on stage. So like I and and they're at a
place where they are over prepared for success. Um. I
(47:38):
put them in the same group that I put Madeline Edwards,
Minko Marks and artists who are like vastly Wendy Moton too,
who are vastly over prepared for the moment, Lane Wilson
and there as well, like people who like who always
show up as if their moment is about to occur,
(47:59):
like that that's been Chapel Hearts grind Um. They're they
are charismatic. They understand how to do three part harmonies
better than probably anybody else like in in the space
like they are that good. Uh, they have a stage
performance that is great because again, when you're at that
(48:19):
point of doing this for as long as they have
been doing it and doing it in the spaces that
they've had the opportunity to do it, and like they
tore parts of the country that are like died in
wool like country music spaces, and that's what they know.
It's not like they like came from some other genre
or they're like country artists that are you know, like
a lot of black country artists get pigeonholed into being
(48:40):
on you know, neo soul or R and B showcases
and you know they're like playing their guitar and trying
to fit. But no, Chapel Heart plays like country places
like they're like Louisiana, Arkansas, Alabama, like that's Oklahoma, Texas.
Like they're they're in it, and so they're just like ready,
they're overright, like they're having fun. Like I called them
(49:01):
the day after it happened. I call it like their
manager and got them on the phone and I'm like
how is it And they're like great, oh my god,
Like we did it. And finally it's happening, and I'm
like yeah, and it's it's a cool thing. It's because
it's like the same thing with Windy mouton on the voice,
Like after Windy had her mom went on the voice,
I would call her up and be like, how are
you and she's like, yeah, it's finally happening, Oh my god.
And it's it's a cool thing to see when people
(49:24):
who are overprepared for success are able to just execute
at the highest level and slay it out of the gate.
It'll be interesting to see what happens after the show.
And I think I have an interesting perspective because one
I worked on American Idol for four years and I
would see these kids or young adults wind and you
(49:45):
only got a brief window to capitalize on that because
then nobody cares again, right, so you have it. So
I was able to watch it work there. But then
I also won Dancing with the Stars, where I had
a brief window in that world of the l a
TV world to capitalized because soon nobody cared again. And
so my advice as always to folks who go on
a show like this is you finished the show, like
(50:08):
you're not going to come away out of this and
be a big star. Well, you gotta grab on and
hold on and grind is that next step up. Don't
try to jump three steps because you can get that
next up right now. You get it's handed to you.
The best play that they made was making the direct
offered to the Opery as soon as they got the
golden ticket, like brilliant, and they got it. And I'm
(50:30):
going to be covering that when Septembar e teen they
make their like opre debut, which again they had, they
had that window. They said, let's pick our one or
two things that we can and they hit it. That
that was a home run moved by them to go,
we're not gonna go. We want to headline to c M.
As they went, we want to play the Opery. That
(50:51):
is an elevation and we think we can get that
right now. And Dan Rodgers is not unaware and Jordan
Pettitt they're not unaware, and they know what the deal
is and you know, like I I I am. It's
it's one thing with like reparational equity in Nashville right now,
like where people are showing up not because oh God,
(51:12):
George Floyd whatever, protests black lives matter, like you know,
like you know, all of all of those like few
requisite things were two years past that now now it's
just the thing where like if you put certain acts
on stage, especially black female acts, for the most part,
these are people who show up and blow away your
(51:32):
stage in a way that like is within the established conversation,
is not like you know, like brilliant to like at
the operay, like within the conversation, but also expanding it
in a way that isn't troubling or difficult to the
established audio. Always say like you can go to the
opery that is country music. Like those people like people
(51:54):
to go to the operate and sit there like that's
that's country. And if they're like standing ovation, you're okay.
You don't get that free, absolutely not. I don't care
what you look like, you don't get that for free.
It's interesting that you know where you talk about Nashville,
(52:18):
and I have found that just giving people chances, and
we've seen a lot of black artists. They've been given
chances in the last two or three years, more so
than I've ever seen. And it's just about exposure, right
for me, because I'm being exposed now, I'm going and honestly,
(52:43):
I don't put anybody on my show just because they're
a black artist. Sometimes I get in trouble for that,
but I'm like, why would this is? You can tell
me that I'm completely wrong here. I never want to
take someone I don't care man woman. Because this was
happening with the female artist as well. They're like, just
put all artists on. I was like, but if I
put a female artist on, that doesn't come on and crush,
(53:03):
everybody's gonna go. That's why we don't put female artists on.
And so I would get hammered, of course. And listen,
I was touring, I was taking out female artist. I
was doing whole concerts at a send. But I just
couldn't allow myself to highlight someone that I felt like
me highlighted them would hurt the cause more than a
quick highlights would help. To me, the coolest thing right
(53:25):
now is John Party taking Laney Wilson and Haley Winters
out on the roade with him, and you already know,
like you put them on a stage, it's like it's
it's it's a done deal. It's a rap, like they're
gonna it's Tierra. Yeah, right, exactly I mean that that
to me is I watched Tierra. I don't I didn't
know she had sent a video in a couple of
(53:46):
years prior that I thought was so good. We played
it on the show, but I didn't even connect him right,
And I'm talking to her, She's like and she's so country.
It's you remember when I sent that video in And
I was like, I'm no what you're talking about. And
so we played it and I was like wow, and
just to watch her and I and she opened some
shows for me here and I'm taking her to the
Today Show in a couple of weeks. But it's not
(54:09):
it's not because she's a black artist. No, she's great
because she's great. But I do appreciate the fact that
people are working to expose more anything that doesn't allow
itself to be exposed naturally and generously, right, Like I mean,
because it's for me. It's like again, it gets back
to that point for me with having the best music
into space, Like that's my job at the beginning, middle
(54:31):
and end on the Nashville Country Reporter, So I report
about the best music in space. So like, yeah, you know,
it's like I all I tell young, especially because young
Black artists always talk to me and say, well I
think I'm ready, and I'm like, okay, well I'll send
them like Old King for instance, Like I said, somebody,
oh King recently and I said, okay, that's the standard.
Where are you towards that? And I'm like, frankly, like, frankly,
(54:55):
compare what you're doing on every scope to what she's doing,
not because she's like because it's great, Like that's the
standard for me right now for the thing that you're
trying to do. And it's like, oh, so you think
I could get there? And I'm like, well, I wouldn't
send it to you if I didn't think you could
get there, Like if I didn't think that that was
a navigable jump for your artistic creativity and your presentation.
(55:16):
And you're like, you know, Candor and everything, like you
know you can that that's the thing you can you
can reach. So for me, this that's the next layer
of this conversation is once you get into space, where
is your growth in that space? And how are you
getting resources? Like everyone else is getting to allow yourself
to grow, right, And but the resources are there. That's
(55:37):
the thing if you if you show up like if
you show up like Madeline Edwards showed up in two
thousand and twenty two, like your yeah, every all the
all the resources will be in your hands, so ultimately
that it is up to you to to make those
leaps because the resources are there, Like it's like, it's there.
I always tell people this. I say, there are no
(55:59):
closed wars in this city anymore. There may be closed
minds in those rooms, but there are no closed doors.
And that's the thing that has changed since the first
time I came here in February one in a musical
like capacity, you know, I wrote The Giants CMT Charlie Pride.
And to see that change has been heartening. And to me,
(56:22):
it's like when you deal with closed minds, that's just
the level of like people that are stodgy about talent anyway.
So there, so that's like, that's the next thing. But
there's no closed doors. There's people were closed minds behind
those doors, but the doors are certainly open. Now. What'd
you write today? Anything good? Oh? Yeah? So? Um, what's
the what's the guy's name who just had a hundred
(56:43):
number one thing was passed? He played? I can't think
any guy's name, but um, guitar was in A and
R two. Yeah, but I just wrote I wrote about him.
I what else did I write about that was good? Um,
A little big town. I sat down with them, Yeah,
(57:05):
for Mr. Sun, which is a great which is a
great record that's coming out. I interviewed them. I also
I'm working on something about actual Me Pride record on Lindaville,
which I'm sure you've heard it. I don't listen anything
before it comes out. I'm not you. No one depends
on me for what you They don't. They don't. They
(57:26):
they depend on you for pre and priming them for
what they're about to get into. People depend on me
for reaction. Yeah, No, it's it's I I explained that
to somebody recently. It's funny you bring that up, like,
because somebody was like trying to like figure out why
it looked like we had good chemistry, and I'm like, well,
we're like freaking frack. It's like I opened the door,
(57:48):
you walk through it, and Bobby's there. That's the way
it should work. Like if I opened the door and
you walk through, then Bobby's there. And if I opened
the door and you walk through and Bobby's there and
Bobby is only going to be there because I said
it was good and that's the way you should work.
And they're like, wow, that makes sense, and I'm like, yeah,
that's kind of what we do. Like that's that to
(58:09):
me is hopefully where this heads in this town. Like
that's one of my my great hopes next steps from
my career at least. Well, I appreciate what you do.
You know, we we generally don't have a lot of
journalists writers, I know, but I thank you. I think
going back to when I mentioned agenda, I am in
(58:31):
line with your agenda. Thank you. And I can appreciate
how hard it is because I don't do it the
same way you do it, and I don't take at
times the risks that you take, nor do you take mine.
But I can respect yours because I know what it's
like to have to take them. But I just think
what you do is needed here. I like you as
a person, and all that kind of worked down the
ven diagram of right in the middle of boom, let's
(58:51):
have him on. So I just love I told Mike,
I was like, well, let's get Marcus on, Like that
does awesome. Seriously, I sincerely appreciate it like, um, like,
are one of the reasons why I'm here. That's not true. No,
it is, It's not true. There are they are, like
there are like five people in this house right now. Yes,
you're the reason. I'm the reason you're in and so like. No,
because as an outside observer, I watched you take flak
(59:14):
and I feel like you take flak like in a
way that is unnecessary. And it's only because there's very
few people that are willing to leap as much as
you're willing to leap, because that's well, at the at
the end of the day, it's very conservative place and
maintaining a status quo. There's a certain economic bottom line
(59:35):
that's you know, benefited by people maintaining status quo, and
to take leaps in the midst of that is incredibly difficult,
but necessary if we're going to expand the genre and
the culture of country music as we have. So I'm like,
I know what I want to do a country music
This is me in two thousand and twenty, in the
middle of the pandemic, like, you know, trying to figure
(59:57):
out like my next move as a journalist and country
was it, Like, you know, if Bobby could survive ish
in Nashville. Then I'm like, I could possibly be okay,
like thinking the way that they can moving the way
I want to move. So it's it's it's really hardening
(01:00:18):
to hear you say that because it makes me feel
like I'm doing something halfway right, last saying, well, a
lot of respect from me and from this entire room,
and you guys follow if anything, just for the fashion influence,
Marcus k out, just look at the pit. I don't
even know how you have because I bet you that
I've given you a clothing budget at all, not at all.
So all like this is this is a mix of
(01:00:40):
like getting like a pandemic check and not and not
spending it smartly. Um, this is a mix of like
doing a lot of TV writing during the pandemic and
doing a lot of like work that required me to
like just sit around and steer it walls. Like I mean,
I've done stuff any networks and CMT, VIACOM, DC government whatever.
(01:01:05):
So like I wore a lot of hats and again,
like at the beginning of the pandemic, I thought we
would never go outside again, so I just started stockpiling
clothes because on Instagram and on the internet, like people
were just like selling things that like ridiculous discounts. So
like the shirts from this place called Halls and Curtis,
and they had this deals that were like four shirts
(01:01:26):
for a hundred and fifty dollars. And I love Elvis,
and I couldn't find high collar Elvis shirts anywhere on
the internet. And then I found this one place in
Great Britain. It had high color Elvis shirts and I'm like,
they have an amazing deal. Wow, I'm gonna buy. And
then they said and they sat in my closet for
a year. And then once we started getting out into
the world, and I'm like, wait, like going out into
the world is not gonna be like a celebration. We're
(01:01:48):
just gonna have to go out every day like we
used to. And I'm looking at my closet like this
is all I really have at this point, Like I
knew that, like when COVID happened, I'm like, this is
the end of the world, this is the end of times.
This is a terrible end of you know, like or
like capitalistic like you know, nightmare or whatever scenario we're in. No, No,
(01:02:10):
we're just gonna kind of go back to things, and
I'm like this whole closet, So I gotta, I gotta,
I have to at were you not the thing before
a pandemic? Like I was just no, not really like
I was. Country music made it all made sense. Um,
all the pieces were there, like anybody who knew me,
(01:02:30):
Like all of the pieces that kind of came together
in this space, we're all there. They just didn't have
any commonality, Like I can't wear collared shirts in d
M spaces, not when I'm like at you know, like
underground raves in Washington, d C. At three o'clock in
(01:02:54):
the morning, Like wearing this shirt, I'm going to ruin
this shirt. So wearing a T shirt is definitely ideal,
Like wearing like bootcut jeans in the middle of the
North Like doing whatever I'm doing in hip hop and
R and B, I'm going to get left out of
the room. Like that's just gonna happen. So like you know,
like eventually coming in the country, Like it just kind
(01:03:16):
of like people don't understand, like this is not a
professional move or not some kind of like socio political
thing that I'm trying to do because it's the wave
and so cool whatever whatever, it's like, no, this is
actually just weirdly how I view the world works for
(01:03:36):
me best in this space, Like anybody who knows me
will tell you my my ideal form of life exists
between there's some of the most golden eras in global history.
The music sounds great, the fashion is amazing, the culture
is incredible. Like there's freedom and social movement and the
(01:03:57):
ability to be like, you know, a free thinker and
a do thing. Things differently existed then and I lived there,
always have, always will. So like when country allows you
to do this every day and nobody blinks an eye,
why what is I you know, like would? And then
it's like it falls into the thing where I can
do it for every day for the rest of my life,
(01:04:18):
Like okay, you don't. You don't have to ask me twice,
you know, like you know, well following Marcus, thank you,
Kay Dowling. It's amazing. It's every day I'm like, well,
I gotta put a comment on that it looks great.
And it's one after the other. It's all comments and
me going, you look wonderful, looking good, thank you sincerely,
Like have you watched the rehearsal yet? On HBO? Max yes,
(01:04:40):
yes you have Wait wait you think about it. It's good,
isn't it. It's great? I love it, like I um.
I started watching it last week. I mean I watched.
When I watched the first episode, I was jealous of
what nath Than had done because I went, I mean,
you're five layers deeper than I've ever been. And it's
(01:05:04):
one of those where it's just an appreciation of and
it's for those that don't know what it is. It's
called the Mike. You watch the rehearsal yet I haven't
started yet. Now. I thought it was honestly thought it
was a scripted show at first. Nathan Nathan for you guys,
on the scripted show, it ain't. He gets with people
who about to make big life decisions and he rehearses
it with them, and it's so it's so much deep.
(01:05:26):
It's it's crazy. As a as a person who like
you know, like mixes psychology with everything I do. Like,
I'm just like, yeah, this is this is beautiful. I
was sitting next to my wife and I was like,
I can't believe it. Did that does amaze? She was
like shut up. I was like all right, sorry, sorry.
She goes just do just watch this shows that it's
that it's that fact when people who get around us,
(01:05:46):
who don't like approach this at the layer that we
have to approach it at. Like I always told people that, like, yeah,
you look at things milecularly, but like I live with
the molecule. So it's like there's a layer that you
just you could never imagine because this that exists. I
think she also wanted to shut up and stop yelling.
I think I have been doing that on the lower
volume level two. It's probably been Okay, you're probably not
(01:06:06):
You're probably not wrong. Marcus, good to see it. Buckets
of admiration, A hand them all to you now, and
same to you following Marcus followers work subscribe to the
Tennessee and yeah, all the things that he's sending me
three dollars okay, and also telling me now you're not
handing me the money. I'm kidding. Yeah, I'll tell you.
I have. I have a podcast coming with the paper.
It's called The Tradition Myself from lebron Hill. He's an
(01:06:27):
award winning opinion writer. Is the feed up yet to
subscribe to or were announce? It is a It is
a pre announcement it is forthcoming. We are six episodes in.
There's an episode with low Cast, there's an episode with
Wendy Moten, there's one with Walker Hayes, Bluncle Brown, Lisla
Fram It's awesome, It's gonna be it's good, It's it's
gonna be a fun time. I have an episode where
I talked about my love with Teddy Pendergrass and how
(01:06:48):
he could have been a country star. Like it's it's
it's it's it's really been. Uh when is that happening?
It should be up within the month, all right, Yeah,
so like why the time this is out, like it'll
you'll you'll come back to it and it will be out.
So well, if you ever am like we'd like to
really scrape. I volunteered. I don't do a lot of
podcasts are on my own, but I'd be happy to come.
Thank you if you ever, if you find a different reason,
(01:07:10):
I'm a thousand percent having you on that just goes
outside there he is Marcu's good to see you, buddy.
Same here
Host
Bobby Bones
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