ASHLEIGH RENARD: World's best failed swinger spills the secrets of the swinging world and how she keeps monogamy hot!

This week, I get real with Ashleigh Renard. Ashleigh is like the Carrie Bradshaw for married people. Seriously! She has inspired millions of couples to reimagine the joy and connection that are possible in their marriage. She's also a bestselling author, coach, creator of the viral video series, How to Keep Monogamy Hot, AND America's favorite failed swinger! In this episode, we get real about:
• The secrets of the swinging world
• Pulling back from shame and facing your vulnerabilities
• Communicating and setting intimacy goals with your partner
• Following your curiosity/intuition
• Rebelling against perfectionism
Ashleigh is one of my favorite people ever and her story is so wild...I love it! I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode and stay tuned for our How-To Minisode on Thursday!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Carola, she's queen. She's getting just let flu. No one
can cry, Carol. I'm so glad you're here, Ashley. So

(00:29):
everyone joining this is Ashley Renard. She is America's favorite
failed swinger teaching couples how to keep monogamy hot, which
I just love this. I feel like you are truly
a one of a kind expert. Like you know something
that everyone is curious about. You know it, you have

(00:50):
been there, you have done it bt DT, got the
T shirt you you know all ins and out of it,
and you are here. You came out on the other
side of swinging back to monogamy. I mean that's a
true thing. You're like the Carrie Bradshaw for married couples. Really,
you really are, Caroline. I love you and all all

(01:11):
the ins and outs. I know all the ins and
outs of the swing lifestyle. Yes, I know everything not
to do. UM. I like to say, as a perfectionist mom,
I took doing it all to the next level. Is
the world's worst attempted swinger. UM. But there were some
things that we learned there. We learned that, wow, hot
sex is better than not hot sex. Can you have

(01:32):
hot sex with someone that you're not like can you Okay,
so my question is like I can't really like to
have hot sex. I feel like I need to be
completely comfortable and safe and like so the swinging world
feels exciting, but it also feels very terrifying because when
you actually get to the moment of truth and here
you are with a new person naked bodies, it's like,

(01:55):
are you I don't know if I could like be
comfortable and get in there because I it's like you
don't you know? It feels very nerve wracking. I absolutely
know because this was my issue as well. I would
go into the club and the does everyone naked? Is
everyone naked? How does that work? Give me a give
us our visual paint. A picture you put on, You

(02:17):
put on the tightest, shortest cult that you have, Maybe
you get some new shoes. Okay, their theme nights some
of these places, and you walk in with your husband, right, yes,
if you walk in as couples, you have to be members.
I mean it's usually a nominal fee for like the
annual membership. Hey Chris, um, it's usually usually a nominal

(02:38):
fee for the annual membership, and then it's like say
nine dollars a night for the two of you to
go for a ticket. Okay, So does everyone have to
get like tested before? No? No, no, no. What if
people have stuff then you have to have You have
to ask that question. Honestly, people who are engaged in
non monogamy are much safer in their sexual practices with

(02:58):
other people and with their part um, Like they're more
likely to use condoms with their partner than more likely
to get tested. They're more likely to be on top
of those things. Um. For us, we were like, I
just want to give credit to people who successfully swing
because we are really we're the ones who couldn't do it.
So um, but this is what we liked about it.

(03:19):
You walk into the club and it's just packed and
everybody is just there to have such a fun time. Okay,
it's like it's like you know, Tailgate super Bowl party.
It's like everything rolled into one. Plus you may see
these people naked by the end of the night. Is
like dancing music, food, what's happening? Yeah, dancing music usually
TVs with pornography, okay something. Sometimes I'd be like get distracted,

(03:43):
like what is going on up? Like I missed the
beginning of the story, Like why are they wearing matching
outfits and maybe like, what that's what you're thinking about? Yes,
I need to I need to put the story together. Um,
there there's a buffet. What's on the buffet? I never
get close to it. That's the only thing that grosses me.
I would go to sex club is that there's a
buffet there. So we don't know. That's the only thing

(04:06):
that's gross in a sex club. But people just talk
to each other and like, you a really welcoming but
like I just want to get to know you, friendly neighbor,
cheers bar type way. So you're looking for chemistry? Is
that what you do? Like when you go around and
you're talking to people, like, are you with your partner
when you're talking to people, absolutely and always walking together?

(04:27):
And do you want to match up with another couple
or like what if you match up with somebody and
another couple and your partner matches up with somebody from
a different partner, can you do that? I would say
the majority of people who go to lifestyle events or
lifestyle clubs are not going to interact with anyone but
their own partner. It's about two thirds of people are

(04:48):
just there or the atmosphere, the excitement of being excitement,
and then they're going to go home and have some
really hot sex. So nobody's having sex there. That's that's
the other third. Or you're gonna be there and you're
gonna get like, you know, hot and bothered by the
making out that's going on on the dance floor or

(05:09):
your own sexy dancing. From the very first time I
went to a club, I realized, my favorite thing is
to whisper to my husband to pull my dress off,
and and he does, and then I'm just they're dancing
in my heels in my loss right, and I'm like, hello,
I was a figure skater in my whole life, so
you know, this tight little outfit in the middle of
the life, and like, yeah, I've been training for this

(05:30):
my whole life. My favorite part we would go to
a private room in the back and and do our
business and then have our hands all over each other
on the way home, and then in the and then
when we would get home, you know, you know, clothes
coming off against the garage. It was like, you know,
the kind of stuff that I'm not sure if any

(05:52):
of you can imagine, this doesn't happen very often after
you've been together twenty years or even or even five
or even ten. Okay, So Caroline, the anticipation of what
we were going to see or what we were going
to do together, or the anticipation for what was going
to happen the next time we would go. That is

(06:13):
what kept us flying high. And I just want everybody,
everybody to think about this. Our anticipation in life are
excitement waiting for something to come that we want so badly.
That is actually the most delicious feeling in the world
that right for And so that was a feeling I

(06:34):
got addicted to really really quickly in this and then
I thought, oh, you know, up in the anti would
be really great if we if we had some interaction
with another couple. So how long did it take to
want to have interaction in another couple? How many times
did y'all go when you're just like feeling oh like
like I was there like twice, and I was like,
all right, I'm ready for more because anything I'm I'm

(06:57):
the gas in our relationship. And he's the bravest, Like
I wanted to get married sooner, I wanted to move,
I wanted the baby, you know what I mean. And
He's like we could wait. So it was actually his
idea to go to a club. But then once I
got a taste for how just exciting and fun it was,
then it was like it was the Ashley trained, like
are you coming um, which this is what people find

(07:19):
really interesting about my book Swing, And the producer who
optioned it for film said, yeah, I could see my
husband and every man I know every day of the
week doing what you did in Swing. And she's like,
but the fact that you were driving this and you
wanted to continue going and then you wanted to meet
up with another couple, you wanted to start like dating

(07:39):
people in this, She was like, this is just it's
it's wild, right, It's like it's something you know, living
through It was definitely something um. So as soon as
then I said, let's have some contact with someone else,
I kissed another man for the first time. Okay, so
how do you find okay? Okay, okay, So how do
you find this other person to kiss and make out with?

(08:02):
And like is your husband making out with the partner
of the guy, Like how do you match up? Like
do you just go around and feel chemistry? Like how
does exactly it's exactly how it would happen for two
people at a bar to see if like, oh, we're
gonna chat, but it's to one to okay, So you
have to match with another couple, like your couple has
to match in another couple. That's usually how it happens,

(08:24):
especially with rookie newbie type people in the lifestyle. When
people have been in this lifestyle for a while, then
they may have rules where you can play separately, Like
someone may have a couple of girlfriends on the side
or boyfriends, or they could just go off on their
own parties. That is like that's elite. That's like Mount
Kilima Jarro type swinging. So for us, like on the

(08:45):
Bunny Hill, it's like two people to people. Right, So
when you're walking around, you may like kind of wave
at other couples. They may come up and say hi,
this young couple came up to us. They were like, babies,
right you nervous, I mean, because this is nervousking because
you're actually you actually have the ability to like connect
and like the option is there, you know, because when

(09:05):
you're married, you're off limits. But now you're not off limits.
We're not off limits, we're not off limits. And so
the women start talking and the men start talking, and
that's what happened with us, and that's what happens quite
a bit. And then um, they announced, oh kissing contest, okay,
like for women. And here's the thing that even at
swing lifestyle clubs, there's still like a bit of misogyny

(09:28):
and like it's not like wet t shirt contest, but
it's like, oh, get the pretty women up to kiss,
you know, so I just gotta watch. It's like it's
definitely more evolved and like the understanding of consent um
and respect is higher, but there's still, you know, there's
still things that are a little sticky. So then the
couple we're talking to, she says to me, oh, let's
go in the kissing contest. Okay. Now I went to college,

(09:51):
so of course I've kissed a girl, right, Yeah, totally
something to have to happen. Man, my favorite thing is
to be getting drunk and making out with the girls
and bars. I was like, I just thought it was
like wild, like you know, just being well, they're so soft. Yeah,
it just goes Yeah, it just so so like liberating.
I don't know. So I only had this one roommate

(10:11):
who I made up with like twice. Right. Yeah, So
I was like, but I mean I kissed kiss a
husband with beautiful lips. I'm like, I know how to
do this. So we get up. I know how to
do that. We get up with a platform and she goes,
I'll go down on you so we'll win, and I'm
like what. Yeah, I was like, um, just kidding. I
thought I'm a rule follower and she's like okay. So

(10:33):
then so then we kissed. It it was like we
were the only ones who just kissed, right because we've
met each other like five minutes before, and these other
like friends. Because that's the thing with couples are in
the lifestyle together. Sometimes they'll go to a club with
friends of theirs, so like they'll go and maybe maybe
they've hooked. They call it play like maybe they've played
with them before. But quite often people meet in the

(10:53):
lifestyle and they just become friends and then like they
go for dinner, maybe they'll go to clubs together, but
they don't hook up with each other, okay, you know
what I mean. Like they may have sex like in
a room, you know, they've seen each other naked, but
it's like more than just all buds Okay, so all
of like the women who are buds are up there
and like doing some sort of performance that they've like
choreographed and rehearse before. Okay, yeah yeah, And and I

(11:16):
jump up there with my new twenty something hot day
and we kiss and then we come down. You know,
we didn't win, we didn't get enough crowd, crowd of plus,
but but our husbands are clapping for us. And then
like the music turns back on and we're dancing, and
I look over all of a sudden, her boobs are up, okay,
like and she got these beautiful boobs. And I have
a really athletic physique, and I was a figure skater,

(11:39):
Like I understand how a butt happens on a body,
but I still don't understand like how boobs grow, Like
like where where how do they come out? Like I nursed.
I nursed my babies for like a total of five years,
so like I got a little when I was nursing.
But anyway, she had these gorgeous breast like gorgeous, and

(11:59):
I was like, really goodness, like I'm just looking at
them right. It was like the Sign field, the Seine Field.
It's like they're they're real and they're, you know, okay.
So I'm looking at them and then I look up
at both of them and I'm like, um, do you
want to go to a back room? Like right? Just
because I was like, wow, this is just amazing. So
we go to this back room and I'm explaining to

(12:21):
them as we walk in that like we've never done this,
we're blah blah blah like and I have all these
like hand motions, you know, like turning into like the
camp counselor or leader of like this little expedition. So
is it already kind of given that your husband's like
down to this couple and this guy is down for
I don't know what you're about to do in the
Are you just doing what I'm That's what I'm saying.
I'm like going, okay, And I hadn't even had this

(12:43):
conversation with my husband before about what we would do, right,
But she says, I am the gas when I go.
I think there's a good idea of people just like
like the pipe piper, Like all right, so we're I'm
going like this, we're going to kind of do our
own thing. You're going to kind of do your own thing.
And if there's if they're I'm like making these hand
motions like crossover, and they're like, we're cool, whatever, we'll

(13:04):
follow your lead. Because it wasn't their first time they
were that. That information comes out really quickly in the
high Nice to meet yous guy, Nice to meet you.
I'm really knew I've had sex with five million people. No,
they don't say that, but they you know what I mean. Yeah,
we we we've been here for a couple of years. Okay,
But they're only in their twenties. So were they married

(13:25):
young or did they just start off swinging like some
people just want to have it the open relationship Before
they were even married, they started going to clubs and parties. Yes, okay, okay, okay,
just from the beginning they knew hey, and that's sort
of what Mammy and I were like. But it was
back in the early two thousands and there weren't as
many options when we first met, and we were like, yeah,

(13:49):
I think I'd be open to something like a like
a little looser than what traditionally is like and just
we would speak like in non specifics like that for
for a long time, like yeah maybe, um and neither
of us are really jealous of the idea of someone
else interacting with another person if anything for me. For me,

(14:09):
it's a turn on thinking of him with someone else. Now,
is it something that I want him to um act
on every day? No, actually, I don't want him to
act on that at all. Like I really am committed
to monogamy because nonmonogamy, I was just I'm very excited
learning about something new, but it was not actually a

(14:30):
great a great influence over me on a day, right, Right,
So we're in this room. I started getting it out
with my head and we're making out. The clothes are
coming off, same things going on on the other side
of the bed. Okay, on the other side of the bed. Oh,
and you go and get sheets that are like wrapped
up like Linen's that like restaurants that are delivered every

(14:52):
week like little service. So you pull the plastic off
the sheets and the towels so that you can have
like clean things that you put over. Okay, Okay, Now
you're on a actual bed. Okay, it's a bed. It's
a bed, but it like has it's like an industrial
I am that I'm envisioning a sex in the city
thing where they went to like a sex club. I
feel like I have seen this in a in only

(15:12):
movies or only TV shows. Okay, yeah, so and this
is why we need Swing to get on a streaming
network right away, because people would inside this. Yes, yes,
we got to know. It's so hot and it's so funny,
like the cast of characters you meet and what you see.
It's just it's quite funny. We're in there getting it on,

(15:34):
and then she reaches across and touches my leg and
her hand is like so soft. I'm like, oh my god,
her hand. And then I reached over and I touched
her button her thigh, and I'm like, what kind of lose?
Like I was like, oh, thinking right there in that moment,
I was like, I'm definitely gonna start using lotion after

(15:56):
every shower, like I swear to you and Caroline every
day every single time I've showered. Since that moment, I
remember her soft, her soft ass, and I'm like, I
want that. So it's so good. And then she and
I kiss, which like I love, I love women, but
kissing women is like not the biggest turn on for me,

(16:17):
Like I love women as friends and um thought leaders
and things like that. And then we both like this
keeps shifting sort of like a kaleidoscope. Right, So everybody's naked,
fully naked. Oh yeah, and now we're all having we're
having sex, we're having intercourse, me and Manny, my husband

(16:38):
and the two of them. And then is this like crazy?
Are you like? What are you? Are you just like
here for it? Is it? Like? Are you still like? WHOA?
I can't believe this is happening. I am like I've
been living in my whole life for this moment. I
am like this is so I'm just blown away by
how fun it is and how everybody is just like
there for the fun. It's like we're just looking at

(17:01):
each other like can you believe life can be? We're
allowing ourselves. So we're allowing like like here we are
two sets of grown adults doing this and it's so
hot and none of us are going to get in
trouble because we're all the boss of ourselves. What like,
what is this? Yeah? It seems like deliriously fun. It
feels like we're all breaking the rules but no one can. Yeah,

(17:23):
you've all agreed to the breakthrough rules, right right. It's
like and even before we went to a club, just
the idea, like that shared idea of like transgression. Things
got way hotter with us because like, when was the
last time we had a secret just the two of us? Right?
So then we're back in this room, right, I'm I'm
having sex with my husband the two millennial one millennials

(17:46):
who are right there. Well Mr Millennial leans over and
I leaned towards him, and we start kissing. Okay, okay, okay, Caroline,
I had not kissed another man in like fifteen years
at this point, okay, right, and I'm just like, oh
my god, Like he was like, and everyone's still having

(18:08):
intercourse while we were like, we're like, you know, like
this is like a lot. This is like aerobics, Like
this is a lot of a lot, a lot to do.
It's like rubbing tapping your head and rubbing your stomach
at the same time. Like you've got a lot of
going on here, but oh but better but easier, more
fun than that. Okay. Yeah, And as we're kissing, he

(18:31):
says into my mouth, as we're kissing, you are so hot. Okay. Wow.
Now I don't know at that moment how long it
had been since Manny had told me I was pretty
or like even looks nice, but like like years like
this was he was not like a he's not he's

(18:53):
not a verbal he's not a verbal man words of
affirmation or not his thing three blowing neck from his tongue, right, yeah, yeah.
So there was something about the electricity of that moment
and him saying to me, you're so hot that I
was like, whoa peak life experience reached? Okay, listen, people,
I'm not an infomaniac, but I was a mom of three,

(19:16):
homeschooling on purpose, home birthing, my toddlers grew their own vegetables,
and and he had just tripled the size of my business. Like, so,
you don't sound like a candidate to be a swinger
with that list of with that resume, that sounds like
opposite day, Really, you know, is that why it led
you there? Because you needed to swing no pun intended

(19:38):
pun intended to the other side, because you are so
like in the trenches of being so home grown. Well,
I think there has always been this radical self sufficiency
inside of me that then kind of tweaked into like
home birthing, home school ling, this this oh being super

(20:03):
evolved in not being jealous of what my partner does
with someone else. I don't know. It was just this
ratcheting up of like looking for the higher level of
difficulty in my life. So it was Yeah, I think
it was just that it was just this amping up
and I was sort of running out of gold stars
that I just like invented this new galaxy that was

(20:25):
called nonmonogamy, and I was like, that seems that seems daunting.
Let's go do that. But you and Manny before, It's
not like y'all weren't happy, right, because y'all were happy, right.
We were excellent at not fighting. We were excellent at
not rocking the boat. We were excellent at navigating the

(20:47):
bumps and lumps under the rug of like every conversation
we avoided for a decade and a half. And we're
still intimate like during the season we were. We were
always intimate because was the only place we got each other.
But y'all weren't really like communicating or really like connecting.
Absolutely not. It was like tag team parenting in and out.

(21:10):
I had my shifts, he had his shifts, and then
you had sex sometimes three times a week. Check it out.
A couple, Yeah, A couple like like like twice a
week probably we would have sorry, So across the board,
it looks good on paper, everything's going well, so good,
it looks so good, and I am really good being
a performer in my whole life, and then training performers

(21:30):
for a couple of decades, because like you said, you
were a professional professional skater, right, and then you were
a coach for figure skating, so you like know how
to like execute, to execute, and to teach and to
teach and no matter how hard it is to make
it look effortless and beautiful, like it wasn't until I

(21:54):
kissed that guy at the club and I was like,
oh my god, Oh my god, whoa is that part
of me that like I'm feeling right now really wants
this attention? I was like, oh, really, fast on, did
you many date other people before I got married? Or
were you all like sweethearts? High school sweethearts college sweethearts?
We met right out of college. We took the same
job out of college, so you hadn't had you hadn't

(22:15):
had some Did you date a lot in college? I
every one of my boyfriends was like a year and
a half. So I had like two boyfriends in high
school and two boyfriends in college, so you haven't had
anything like wild. You hadn't had like a wild neither
ever had Still to this day, I've never had a
one night stand in my life, okay, never, Like I
always had steady boyfriends and I always had incredible sex,

(22:37):
But I never had it casually. Yeah, neither, and neither
had he. Neither had he he had girlfriends, So it's
always in a committed not. Okay, here you are now
kissing this other guy. Why haven't while having intercourse with
your husband? I mean, this is wild, this is crazy,
this is totally sex and say, this is Samantha Jones
style right now? Oh well that's who I felt like.

(22:57):
I felt like part Samantha Jones, part Beyonce. But like
you know, I was still breastfeeding when I was going
to these clubs carriers. I wasn't leaking it. I don't
think I could, if could anybody confirm or deny if
I leaked. How old was your youngest child? He was
two and a half. You've pressed by a long time.

(23:19):
I breastfed him till he was three. Yeah, okay, go
grow Okay. The other ones were like a year and
a half each. Also, this one think it takes a
lot of time to swing and commit to this. Oh
my god, energy, it's a lot of energy. Because after
we met that couple, I thought I would love to
have a couple who we really know, who lives close
to us, who like we could do this with and

(23:40):
then go all the way because it's sooner. They about
the taste of that. I was like, oh, full swap.
Did your husband kiss the other wife? Yeah? I think so.
I think he did. I don't know, but everybody's fine
when it's all so. But nobody switched partners. You just
kissed while you're with your partner exactly. So then you
wrap up. This shouldn't what is ever? What when you're done?

(24:02):
How does that end? Like? What is the moment? Like
when it's over, you clean things up, you get dressed,
you you hand garments to each other. Is this your shirt?
Is this? This is like that? Right? Hey man? I
think I got your I think their socks off. I
don't know, I need to ask anyway. So and then

(24:23):
you exchange numbers, exchange numbers, you're like, okay, yeah, let's text.
That was so fun. Drive safe by five, you know,
you know, like that like that and then and then
they're like friends and you're like, oh, we're going to this,
like you know, this party or this hotel takeover. Do
you guys want to meet up or whatever? Right, So
that was always so what city are you and when

(24:45):
you're doing this? Philadelphia? Just outside Philadelphia? Okay? Is it?
Do you like get locked up with like one particular
club or do you hop around in different ones or
like you like sign up with a membership. Everybody hops
around to a bunch of different ones. Everybody seems to
be members that like like two or three different It
is the pineapple upside down really the sign No, I

(25:06):
mean no, nobody really uses the pineapple because we have
apps for that apps now, Like, so I went on
this app to meet a couple who lived closer to
us because this these young these young uns lived a
little far. Then we go out for dinner with this
couple we meet on the app, and then instantly, like Caroline,
like you can see readers of my book as you're reading,

(25:26):
You're like, she is on thin ice, she is on
crack because you're falling. Oh, I was just like I
was falling for this lifestyle, falling for this high. And
then we go out with this couple. We talk over
drinks and dinner, getting to know each other for a
couple of hours, and then the first thing the wife

(25:48):
says to me right after is I cannot believe how
into you he is, Like I've never seen him like
this was jealous. Um, because this is where I started
to get sticky, right, because this moment, in this moment,
after the first you know, we've been texting before we
went for dinner, Because now this is where the relationships,

(26:10):
the actual marriages, could enter the rocky ground, because what
if now you start to actually prefer the swing partner?
Right And what we realized really quickly her and I
was that the reason she was okay with dating us
was actually because they were dating another couple and she

(26:31):
was really into the guy, and the relationship between her
husband and the woman was like a little cooler. And
so he was like, this doesn't feel fair, and she's like,
would you want to meet like another couple too then
and see if you can get see if you can
get that. I had no idea this is I thought
they were just newbies like us. So they did. He

(26:53):
keep dating the other girl as well? They did? Oh god,
this is so how do you keep all this organized.
This like it's gonna get crazy. That being a swinging
texting girlfriend became like my fifth full time job. And
his wife once asked me please don't text him outside
nine to five, so it became my only full time
job with regular business hours. I was like, all right,

(27:15):
what time is it clocking in texting the morning? Because
he and I then started texting like hundreds of times
a day. It got really it went really fast. And
does she like does she is she allowed to read
the text as your husband around the text? Is that
like off limits? Well? This was the interesting thing. They
have been doing this for a while, and their rule
had always been to text within the force and like

(27:37):
a group text, group text. Okay, but then you can't
get secretly sexy in the group text, right because okay?
About five minutes after we went out for dinner for
the first time, I get a text from him individually. Hey, heysh,
this is Brad. Jess and I decided that we were

(27:57):
going to text separately now, so she's gonna text man,
oh he he and Jedds didn't decide. He decided, did
nanny have chemistry with the girl? He was willing to
go along with it because she was cute, but he
wasn't really into it. He would have rather Caroline. We
just went back to what we did the very first

(28:18):
time we walked in the club, which was like we
went in, we drank in like all of this excitement,
sexy energy, and then we just went home and incredible
sex for four days. Next level, next level, next level.

(28:38):
So and when when you're used to being the one
who like has to really push for any inertial like
if it wasn't for me, we would still be living
in our same two bedroom condo with like three kids,
and Nanny would be working at his old job. Whenever
I see he's ready for something, I give him this
nudge and he really pushes back for a while, and

(28:58):
then I just keep saying I actually I see something
better for you. And finally, usually it takes about twenty
four months he'll go, oh, this thing is better, and
I'll say, that's that's awesome, great idea. I love. I
love I love that idea that you came up with.
I love it. I love that for you, Alexa, take
us way back way back, misching and um, so yeah,

(29:23):
things just ramped up really quickly and from there I
really got to see, WHOA this this intensity that I
was like feeling and craving. It's like so cliche to
be like woke up or awoke in me, But I
had been pushing down my feelings. I every day on
the ice had said, Okay, my success today is based

(29:45):
on how well I can ignore what my body is
telling me, how well I can ignore my mind saying
I think that was enough like how I was. I
had like sort of been out disciplining myself to tolerate
like discomfort. So then when I started feeling these good feelings,
I was like, WHOA that I haven't felt that in

(30:05):
so long either. And I thought what made our marriage
great was that I didn't feel that. It was like
so steady from the very beginning, so steady, like we met,
we've been about three weeks. I knew we would get married.
Ten months later. We had our first mortgage together. A

(30:26):
year after that, we were engaged, then married, then pregnant
then right like it was just we were so so
like the on track and so responsible like then we
kept that first condo and we didn't sell it. We
kept it as a rental, and we bought our next
properly on like so by the book doing it well,

(30:48):
doing it well that I think. And he grew up
in a Greek Orthodox household and then he played Division
one football, so he just disciplined himself into everything right.
And so for us letting loose in this way was
like it was like a rebellion for being like so straight,
lace and serious every day. But what we both realized

(31:10):
that that at the court we both had needs that
we did not even know how to communicate to each other.
We didn't even know how to acknowledge them ourselves because
we had both pushed them down so hard for different reasons,
but with like similar effectiveness. So we had been coming
together and growing our relationship and growing our family on

(31:30):
such a surface surface level, and we were so proud
of ourselves because we had never had a fight, Caroline,
we had never we've been together married ten years and
we've never had a fight, because we had ignored every
single thing that could have brought us more growth, could
have brought us more intimacy, because we were so afraid

(31:53):
of what that conflict could feel like We're mean between
the two of us, because we both had this had
this really strong guard about being like the good guy
and like wanting to be seen as the good guy.
So we were just like two good guys trying to
just be being nice enough. Yeah, so it was all

(32:14):
It was all really surfaced and Swing it's the story
of how through those adventures at misadventures at sex clubs,
I realized, whoa, we are going downhill like so fast,
like when you when you connected with Brad? Did he
Did Manny ever find a connection like you did with Brad?
Or was he kind of just like hopping along looking

(32:35):
was he looking for one? Or did he ever get
what you got? I think, I think what happened and
this becomes clear and Swing is that Manny was already
getting what I got on the side before we ever
started this, and I mean on the side, on on

(32:55):
the side which will see in the book. He was
outside of this having contact with someone else, flirting, kissing
like this, this that I never knew about even before
we started going to the clubs. Was this person a swinger? No,

(33:16):
she was just a cheater and he was too. So
it's these things about when we won't admit to our
partner right that that he would not admit to me
that he wanted more, And when I would say I
want more in our relationship, he'd be like, I don't
know what you mean, it's fine, right, And all the

(33:37):
ways that we lie to each other and ourselves because
we don't want to feel the thing, or we don't
want to admit the thing, or we don't want to
open up that vulnerability because so often that part of
ourselves that we're keeping so so protected, right, like the
vulnerability we have told ourselves that that's a really really

(34:00):
really bad part of us, right, like right, that the
emotion of that that part of us hurts other people
or makes us, makes us into a burden or or
or right, And I think so both of us had
that box like up, like tied up so tight, like
never ever open, right. And when I would dip into

(34:21):
mind and say, look, but I feel like, wouldn't we
both like this, he would go, I don't. That's not
even a thing. I don't know why you think I
have that. So it was it was a struggle back
and forth for all the years, not ever really connecting
on anything more than surface. So when he said let
swing and he already had something on the side, was
he doing that because he wanted to get you kind

(34:43):
of distracted? With someone else so he could dive into
the other relationship or what was his purpose for wanting
to swing if he already had something going on. I
haven't got a clear answer from him till this day
on that. I think he wanted to lessen some of

(35:03):
his own guilt by letting you in on it too. Yeah,
I think he wanted I think he was telling himself
the whole time. Ashley and I have always had conversations
about non monogue. We've always been sort of like, oh, yeah, yeah,
that that would be definitely something that would be on
the table, like, right, We've always been in that kind
of conversation. Yeah, And so I think he just you know,

(35:24):
went on his own, went on his own and started
starting started acting on that. And then I think part
of it was like, oh no, no, because because we're
both like this, we're but we both do this kind
of thing, right. So then we start going to the clubs,
and then I get a taste in a different way, right,
and I am just like balls to the wall, right,

(35:45):
And then it's not until I'm completely falling for Brad
and Nanny doesn't seem to care that I'm falling for Brad,
and that like it's like a little red flag. It's like,
what's happening? And then, because we're all completely psychic, I
actually had a dream that Manny was cheating on me
with this woman. Did you know the woman? I had

(36:08):
met her a couple of times, just a couple of times.
And did you feel anything when you met her? Like,
did you think you did? Like you said, I felt
weird vibes both times from her, and um, I think
I had asked Manny about her probably three months before this.
I was like, wait a minute, you saw so and so, okay, wait,

(36:29):
what be straight with me here? Is there something we're
going on there? And he was like, no, no, because
and then I had this dream and it was so vivid,
and I was like, oh, yeah, I fucking no, I
know because we always know, I think, and that that's
that's one of the things when we were shoving down
those bad feelings, what we're shoving down is our intuition.

(36:51):
We're shoving down is source trying to speak through us, right,
like we are just closed off from all of it.
So then did you cant him? I did? And what happened?
He's like, I know, my dream told me you were caught.
Uh well, I woke up in the middle of the
night and he wasn't there. He wasn't in our bed,
which was so weird. Um. So I was like, I

(37:13):
don't know, he fell asleep watching basketball or something, and
he really was. He really was in our house. But
it was very weird to wake up from that dream
and then he's not there, you know, just very weird.
And then it was probably six in the morning the
next day. I wake up and like, my eyes are puffy,
like I the dream was so so upsetting and then

(37:33):
which made sound funny to people here because like I
had just made my new hobby like kissing other men
at clubs. But but that was out in the open.
This one, it was out in the open, and there
was this real there was this feeling Caroline I had like, Okay,
this this is a wild ride, and my my emotions
are going like this, but oh my god, my husband

(37:54):
and I are in such a solid place to be
making this wild decision and adventure together, right like I had,
Like my ego was like, oh, if everybody else could
have the trust that you and Manny have, right, Like
my ego was like really superior, um, feeling really superior.
There and then you know, I have I have this

(38:15):
dream that he's cheating on me with some chick from
high school who like they work in the same area
and they would run into each other. Um, and I'm right.
So I confront him in the morning and he's like, oh,
he plays it down, like, oh, yeah, we flirt or
something like via like MS or something, blah blah blah.
But no, no, no, it's nothing, it's nothing. But I
was like, Okay, but in the dream, you weren't telling

(38:38):
me the whole story. That was the part that really
got me mad. In the dream, like I found some
like location services thing on his phone, and then I
was like, wait, how often, how long? Blah blah blah
blah blah, And he was like stonewalling me right at
some of it, and I was like, no, no, no,
you're telling the whole true like it's out, but he
just kept kind of pushing around it. Um. What eventually

(38:59):
came out is that they kissed a couple of times,
that they had like all of these sexy messages, mostly
on his computer at work, um, and not on his phone.
But I still went through his whole phone and was
going like it was it was like the rug was
pulled out right from under me because right I was
like really thinking the reason why we were doing these

(39:19):
things was because our trust was so rock solid. But
now you're in an interesting position because now you like
Brad so but now you've learned about this secret. So
this is a very complicated. Now you're this is very complicated.
It is, It's very complicated. It's very complicated because I
really like Brad because he really likes me. Caroline like, so, now,

(39:41):
but are you mad at Manny and feeling betrade? And
so you're telling him probably he needs to end this
relationship because it's not honest. But yet you don't want
to endure your relationship. So what happens now? This is
this is definitely the plot thickens. The plot thickens, and
I if this doesn't get picked up as a movie

(40:02):
or a Netflix series, I mean this is like this
your and everyone reading. I know, y'all everyone here has
been aware of Ashley's book Swinging, and if you haven't,
you've got to read it. I mean this is like
you can't make this up. This is this stuff? Is
this is what movie Gold is right here? Series Gold
serious goals? Yes, So as soon as this happened. As

(40:25):
soon as he fessed up a bit um well, it
was so weird. I was immediately way more attracted to
my husband. I was like, this is soho bonkers now
that I'm jealous that he's maybe going to see this
other woman, because it is it because you're like, why
were you not giving me that sexy messages? Or is
it like, yes, that it was. You don't just like

(40:48):
bump into someone at a coffee shop and like then
make out and like you know, like sneak behind the
coffee shop and like steal a kiss. You had to
have been flirting. You had to have been nice, you
had to have been kind, you had to have been
the seeds all along for connection with this woman. He's simple,
simple things that me mother of your three children, you know,

(41:10):
homesteadying on this, I mean the home staging was really
my idea, but I really wanted a lot of athletes
for it, right, making bread from scratch every week and
all that stuff. I was like, I am just so
desperate to have him just shower some love or appreciation
on me. I'm doing it all these different weird ways.

(41:31):
But you're giving him all of you, and like your
commitment and your children and taking care of everything, and
all you really wanted was this showering of love and attention.
And now you're and you thought maybe he just didn't
have it in him to give, but now you're realizing
he did, but it was for someone else. So that's
really defeating out right, And when a shower, if I

(41:51):
just got a sprinkle, right, But here I am over
here like dehydrated, starving for love. Because here's the real
kicker for everyone. The reason I was trying outside of
me to do all these things, the reason that I
shoved it down so hard when I didn't get these
things from my husband, that that when I did get
a little bit of this from another man, I went

(42:12):
like completely boy crazy, banana s nimble maniac, was because
I had never given any of that kindness to myself.
I had always been trying to achieve and accomplish and
be the best. And like you've been like killing yourself
right to prove that you're worth it and the and
and amazing. Right. I feel like all of us do that,

(42:34):
Like we want to show I'm worthy, I'm amazing. Look,
I'm working so hard, absolutely, And I thought, if I
just keep pushing myself, and I keep proving that I'm good,
and I keep proving that I try, and I keep
proving that I care. Then some vault of love from
a Bob is just going to open and rain down

(42:55):
on me. It has to happen. It has to happen.
I've been working so hard. Haven't you seen how hard
I'm working? Yes, And like you've seen and like you
even said that, like you have you your personality. I
mean I have this too, but not I wish I
was a better performer because I like I, I like
cheated my way through school, Like I quit a lot

(43:15):
of things, not like you, but like you, when you
start something, you're going to be the best and you're
going to execute and you're going to you're going to
like be the best performer, be the best coach, be
the best wife. Like you even said, like you're gonna
homeschool your kids, are gonna raise vegetables, like you are
going to do it to the best ability, and you aren't.
So you don't cut yourself any slack or any grace

(43:36):
or any room for for being human really because you're like, no,
we're gonna achieve and we're gonna rock this absolutely all
of those things that I didn't like about myself, like
being tired. Oh for thank you figure skating and you know,
just nineties sindom culture. But for eight years I hated

(43:57):
myself every time I felt hungry everything Ali, Oh yeah, well,
I mean I struggled to the aiding distorers Bolimia and
I tried. I wasn't cool, I wasn't strong enough to
be interorexyes interrextic, so I would just do blim sometimes.
But yeah, but we're so hard on ourselves. So everything
that I considered in myself to be so immature and

(44:20):
childish and unsavory and unlovable, I realized was all my
human parts, all my humanity, all my softness, all my compassion,
all of it, all of it, all of it. All
your mona, buddy, because you thought if I could just
be perfect, then I'll be lovable. So let me be perfect.

(44:41):
And if I'm not perfect, then I'm unlovable. Man, don't
we all struggle with that? If I'm not perfect? If
anyone I remember I used to think, like when I
was in therapy, I was like before I got into therapy,
was like, if anyone finds out how like all my
what I consider my secrets or my shame. If anyone
ever found that out, I would never love me and
I am would never be like good enough. And so

(45:04):
I was always mean and defensive when I was on
the dating field because I was like, someone's really gonna
have to push through to prove to me that they
love me all the way, so I don't have to
yah at them and bite it then like a chihuahua,
because I'm so afraid that if they get in here,
they're going to see that I'm not worthy and not
good enough. And then Caroline, coming from that similar background

(45:24):
that you're describing in the uncovering, in the excavation of
what I had to do myself myself to get to
a place where then many either had to like step
up or or ship out. In that what I have
found is the radical rebellion against perfectionism, that is crafting

(45:51):
it into a story for other people to then take
and do with what they wish. Like it's it's like
it's like I didn't, you know, reverse on on my
shame and was like, oh, so these are I realized
some of like my deepest, darkest fears and what I
really think of myself and you know what. I'm gonna

(46:11):
put this all in a book because I want anyone
else who has ever felt any of this to look
at it and go. But wait, that is not consistent
with who Ashley. I think Ashley is as a person,
So maybe that thing isn't true about me either. What's
the list that you were running through your head that
you that wasn't good enough? And nothing? Nothing was ever

(46:32):
good enough, Caroly? Like nothing was ever good enough? Like
how clean my house was, how much money I made,
how successful my teams were, um, how nice my yard was,
the car I drove? The nothing was ever good enough?
Because I felt like I am not yet a good person? Right,

(46:56):
I'm not yet a good person? Why did you think
you weren't a good person? I thought that way for
so long too, and even like with becoming a mom,
like I had a couple of miscaraters before Sunny, and
I thought like, I'm just not good enough to be
a mom, Like I'm not I'm not I'm not like
worthy enough to be any anything. I felt that too,
like I'm not a good enough person, like I'm there's

(47:17):
something wrong with me or flawed, But like, why do
we think that you know what I think it is
for me because I've always shawn really bright, okay, like
straight A's I could read when I was three, right,
like straight A's. All of these things, all of these
things I think honestly, so okay, I could shine bright,
but I have these enormous limiting beliefs on really accepting

(47:40):
my own success and believing that it's real. You know,
Swing is still fifteen thousand copies. I'm now in talks
for three different TV shows, like it's all wild. But
there's this part of me who's like I haven't felt
loved by all the people who I want to love me,
so like I don't. I still don't think there's goodness

(48:01):
here because if you're not, if you're doing all this
and you're still not feeling loved, then you can't then
you're not lovable, Okay. So I think what it is
is that I always knew that I should look good
so someone else could feel better, like it would reflect
positively onto people around me. But I think I thought
that was all I was good for, Like I don't

(48:25):
actually get to have my own dreams in my own
life because my job is to reflect the light onto
this other person. So what I have started imagining, is
me floating higher, higher, higher. And what I really want
to do is reflect the light of all that is.

(48:47):
Reflect the sun reflect sorts reflect two people. I see
the goodness in you. I know that you think there
are parts of you that should never be shown. But
I want you to know all of it is beautiful.
All of it is beautiful. Let's pull back the shades,

(49:08):
let's pull back the shame from conversations. And that's the thing.
I make videos about how to keep monogamy hot. So
I'm talking about sex that all anybody wants to talk
about his feelings, because sex is just like a crusty
cover over top of like feelings underneath that we don't
think are allowed to see the light of day, or
to come out of our mouth, or to to be

(49:29):
put into the air for another person to hear and
then judge us. What's going to happen is that person
is going to go, oh my god, me too, and
then you're gonna get closer. But we we we have
all these insecurities through physical intimacy that then are usually
just covering up even greater treasures about our own vulnerability

(49:51):
and the way that we really connect with people because
it's in that deep, deep sensitivity that like your whole
heart is exposed and you can you can then feel
it from someone else. Yes, And sex is like the
low hanging fruit that it's like that's the easy grab,
but really, once you get into it, all the other

(50:12):
stuff is still there. It's like you think that that's
gonna fix it, like the the flirty text or like
the having the attention for someone else is gonna heal
all of this shame and pain and whatever wounds were
trying to cover up. If we could just get someone
to see us and love us and think we're sexy
and have this amazing experience, then we're going to magically
be fine. But everything still stays because you're literally just

(50:34):
putting a band aid, like you said, over, it's like
over the depth of pain and all that stuff is
still there. Yes. And actually I write about this at
the very end of Swing. What I'm talking about the
fear of sharing the story. Okay, the fear of sharing
the story. And I have three kids, right, and two
of them are on TikTok and Instagram, and just just

(50:56):
the whoa, whoa, whoa, what is going to happen here?
And what I wrote there and the Caroline, I'm so
glad you you said those words you just said, because
I haven't thought about these last pages of Swings since
I narrated the audio book like way way back, and
what I said was in sharing my truth. People may
lash out, but I would much rather tend a cut

(51:20):
in the open air then continue to try to mend
a soul that's being rusted out. The only way I
have found for the inside of me, my heart to
feel healthy is to give air, in space, in sunlight
for all that is in there, not just the things

(51:43):
that I think are presentable. And you're also showing your
kids that you're a human and you're struggling. And listen,
just because you wrote the book and you shared it
all doesn't mean that not everyone in the world hasn't
had these thoughts. Isn't struggling in their marriage, is it
having affairs, isn't feeling unworthy? You're just brave enough to
say I feel all this. I went into the fire,

(52:05):
and now I'm sharing the truth of it. You know,
everyone else has these thoughts that they just live with
internally and keep us secrets. You know, Yeah, you're just
sharing it, and I want to say one thing. For
a while, when I was first writing Swing, I had
this little note I was like, you're being brave. You're
being brave, You're being brave. And one day I went
to write it and I was like, wait a minute,

(52:25):
that doesn't feel right. And I thought, wait, what what
is it about that that doesn't feel right? And I thought, actually,
you can write this book and still walk safely on
the street. You you can write this book about adultery
and sex clubs and these things, and you're you're You're
not going to be unsafe in your community. You're not
gonna be cut off financially, you're not going to be

(52:46):
hurt physically. You're not. And I thought, wow, okay, okay,
I'm actually safe to do these things. It's still scary,
but I don't think it's actually courageous. And I thought too,
even about the situation I was putting my kids in,
you know, just opening up this conversation, and I thought, Wow,
it's such a privilege for me to ask myself, do

(53:07):
I want to be out? Do I want to be
out about this? Do I want to be open? Because
I have friends and families that that like they don't
have a choice, like to be out because like just
their presentation, the fact that they're married to someone in
the same general like it already They're already out in
the world. So I thought, wow, when we can ask ourselves,

(53:28):
oh do I want to share this? We are already
in such an incredible position of privilege because we have
the safety and security to know that we could stretch
the envelope. We could stretch the conversation in that direction,
and it will cast a light on all those people
who are not even close to being at that place

(53:48):
yet where they could safely tell their story. What do
your kids think about it? So funny, Caroline? Okay, So,
so I came out two years ago. So Jack and
Luke were thirteen and eleven, and we were driving just
a couple of weeks before the book came out, and
they knew Mommy wrote a book that's for grown ups.

(54:11):
They know, like some TVs for growing And Manny has
been totally cool with you sharing it all too well.
At first, I was going to write it as a screenplay,
and so I was working on that and he's like,
this is amazing, This is amazing, And then I realized, Wow,
I think people are going to possibly see it themselves
in this story, and I want them to put a
face to the experience. So they're like, wait a minute.
Ashley went through that, and she's okay. I know she

(54:32):
as I I see her on Instagram. And so that
was a process over several months of him becoming more
comfortable with it. And one of his questions was, what
about the kids. What if other people don't let their
kids come over to our house because um, you know
we've been to sex clubs. And I said, okay, So
if my book is successful enough for people in our

(54:56):
community who you know, I don't have the same last
name as Manny and kids, for for them to know
that that these children belong to me and that I
have this wildly successful book and that and they don't
let their kids come over here, that would be interesting.
That would be an interesting experience for our three white
boys to have in America that people are like discriminating
against them for something you know, a family member did.

(55:19):
But that'd be interesting. So what I did eighteen months
before Swing came out is I emailed copies of the
book four d and twenty five copies, like in word document,
two friends, family, neighbors, my grandma, and my kids, friends, parents,
and I said, cats out of the bag. And I
think everybody likes me better because you're honest. The neighbors

(55:41):
are like, oh my god, your your marriage isn't perfect.
I was like no, They're like, oh girl, I thought
you guys were perfect. I was like no, no, no,
no no. They're like, oh, she's real. This is this
is refreshing. I'm like, yeah, actually everybody is. People who
like look like nothing's going on usually have like the
most you know this, Caroline, the most stuff going on. Right. Yeah.
So I'm driving to Dick Sporting Goods a couple of

(56:03):
weeks before the book comes out because he came out
in Pandemic and our cover design was like really down
to the wire. And the cover designs come back and
they're awful the first time through, which happens so often,
I'm sure with album art and other stuff too. You're
like oh no, no, no, no, no, like refocus here.
So there's this photo, this one book cover where it
was like swing era, like I'm wearing a poodle skirt

(56:25):
and I have this brufont hair do and I'm at
a red light. I'm like, oh my god, oh my god,
this is awful and looks like, mom, let me see
he's eleven. He takes it. He looks he's like this, noe, Mom,
you're gonna tell her this note. That's not okay. He's like,
my manager, right, and then he goes, mom, why is
it called swing again? Oh? Oh my god. I hadn't

(56:46):
told them yet, Like I knew I was going to
have to tell him. I said, okay, I said, boys,
you know what monogamy is. They're like, yeah, when you're
married to one person. I was like, yes, well, there's
this thing called non monogamy where people, when they're married
or they're dating, they don't just date that one person.
They date other people as well. And your daddy and
I thought a few years ago that in addition to

(57:07):
being married to each other, we might want to date
other people. And we realized really quickly that that was
super confusing and not that much fun, and there were
a lot of things we needed to work on in
our marriage together. And that's why, over the last few years,
the way mommy and Daddy are with each other is
like so much more fun. And we talked more and
we laugh more, and you know, we got a dog

(57:27):
and now the whole family cuddled together and they're like, oh, okay,
And I said, so, do you have any questions? And Luke,
my eleven year old, goes, yeah, is she gonna fix
your hair on the cover. And last night, Caroline, I
was journaling in bed and my nine year old was
in bed with me, cuddling. He's reading Harry Potter and
he looks over at my journal and I have at
the top World's Worst Attempted Swinger, because that's like in

(57:50):
my bio in a lot of places, and I had
it written for something I was going to do today.
And he looks over and then he looks back at
his Harry Potter book, and I was like, he's nine
and I haven't told him yet, what the cup? What
the why the book is called swing? So I said
to him, I said, do you know why my books
called swing? And he said no, but I would like to,

(58:14):
so funny Caroline, And so I told him the story,
the same story that I told his brothers the year before,
you know, two years before. And then I said to him, so,
do you have any questions? There's no slips over and
then he turns back and he points to that World's

(58:34):
Worst Attempted swinger and he goes, so you could say
it was over before it began, basically yeah. Yeah. I
was like, yes, you can definitely say that. So they
just it's no big deal for them, and we are
so open talking about sex. I'm sure that there are

(58:56):
maybe some people who might tease them, but usually what
they hear from other kids is, oh my god, your
mom knows how to go viral on TikTok, Like can
you tell me how? Um? Yeah, Like there's this different
kind of like credibility you get with kids nowadays if
you have a social platform, because they all want to

(59:16):
be famous, right, So I'm not saying that there won't
be like bumps in the road and things as they
get older. But I've we've always been really open about
how different families have different rules, and almost every rule
in the family are just set to try to make
the parents feel safe with what they can predict that
their kids will do. So some rules are like really tight,

(59:40):
and usually ours were, like with TV and things when
they were little. But this thing about like how we
talk about sex and how we think it's normal and natural,
Like we we have a much wider lane in our
family than a lot of people do. So what happened
Brad and what happened to the alleged fair with your husband?

(01:00:02):
How did that all end? What all? How did that
wrap up? People are gonna have to read Swings or
watch it when it comes out on Netflix. Okay, you're
gonna leave us with the cliffhanger. I freaking love it.
So now tell me what is your goal now? Because now,
how did you and Manna mend? And well, I'll try
to wrap up because I literally could talk to you forever.

(01:00:22):
But how did y'all decide that you wanted to actually
mend the marriage, that you wanted to get out of
the swinger life, and that you wanted to focus on
monogamy and really make y'all's marriage hot and prioritize it
and really nurture it. How did you how did you
um start working on that? And how did you guys

(01:00:44):
get to the place that you are? Now? What did
you do? Like? How okay, let me put a difference.
How did you go from a marriage that was great
on paper but then kind of took a turn and
you didn't know if it was gonna work anymore. You
didn't know if you are going to stay monogamous? How
did you make monogamy hot again with your marriage? Okay,

(01:01:07):
So the way we were able to stay together emotionally
and with integrity was for both of us to go
much deeper into our vulnerability. And he was not willing
to do that until I did a lot of that
work on my own and loosened up my own fear
about being vulnerable and really recalibrating what I needed, recalibrating
how much love I deserve, recalibrating what I wanted, and

(01:01:31):
that you know, there weren't there weren't a lot of
bad things around what I wanted. I'd always you know,
disciplined myself so strongly, um that I really came to
a different residence. And then when I said to him, Hey,
I think we're done here because like there's no match
here anymore. Like we've done a lot of great things together,
but figure out this marriage thing isn't one of them.
So you thought, maybe you are going to call the marriage. Absolutely,

(01:01:52):
I was like, I just got to take it lp
on this marriage because like, these other parts of my
life are really expanding and I'm starting to love myself
fuck gasp for the first time. I'm like, wait a minute,
I think life gets to feel better than this, and
if we come up against something that we haven't been
able to figure out. I think there's so much integrity
and saying to your kids, hey, mommy and daddy aren't

(01:02:13):
good at marriage. We're good at a lot of other things.
Here's what they are. But we want to learn from
you guys how to have a really connected, loving, intimate partnership,
you know. And so we're not going to be together
and pretend like this is this is how you do it.
You know, I would rather just leave space for like,
I don't know, it's still a mystery how people have
happy marriages. So when I came from that place, Manny's

(01:02:36):
dynamic shifted in an enormous way because he realized that
you were willing to let it go. Yeah, Like I
was out, I was ready to walk away, And I
think for him in that moment, it was actually incredibly
irritating to me because I've been wanting these shifts for
so long. And then I'm like, hey, peace, and he
was like wait a minute, and then pouring his heart out.

(01:02:57):
I was like, this is weird. This is your cry.
This hasn't happened before. But I was like, but I'm
not going to kick you out because we'll see what's
going on here. And then a couple of days from
to DO, a couple of weeks from to DO, a
couple of months turned into a year, and I was like,
he's just getting better and better. This is pretty amazing.
So really it came down to sharing, like you got

(01:03:21):
to a place where you are content with yourself instead
of stuffing and suppressing like you had, like you had
a perfect marriage on paper, and then you decided to
try to maybe kind of explore, blow it up a
little bit with trying to swing your life. Realize, Okay,
this is kind of getting messy and confusing. But now
you're like, I actually am going to work on loving
myself because now it's coming to light that all like

(01:03:43):
feeling like sex, like the band aid of sex and
having someone else give you attention really is just covering
up the bigger underlying issue, which is I need to
learn to give myself grace, to love myself, whether or
not anyone else sees all the wonderful things I'm doing.
I need to just value myself. So once you valued yourself,
then you said, okay, I can actually just leave this

(01:04:04):
marriage because if you can't see my value, or if
we don't have a connection, if we're not communicating, if
it's never gonna get there, I'm okay with walking away.
Then he gave it to you, so you're like, damn it,
why didn't have to do all this exactly? And it wasnasting,
it was exhausting, and I was I was like happily
annoyed for probably two years. And then something clicked. After

(01:04:25):
I wrote Swing and it was going out in the world,
I was like, oh, I actually know what happened to
him that day when I came in honesty and I
was like, yeah, I just you know, it was like, yeah,
we should change the paint color, or now we're going
back to non organic milk. It was like just such
a clear decision um that he was like he knew

(01:04:47):
there had to be a switch. And I think in
that moment, his fear of being vulnerable and wait, what
parts of me am I going to see and feel
and realize if I have to open up became smaller
than his fear of not having his family in the
shape that he wanted. And in that moment, he was like,
suck the fear of vulnerability, Like I just want my
family together, so whatever, he kind of just dropped his

(01:05:09):
defenses around it. So it took all At the end
of the day, what you're kind of trying to say
is it took this huge journey for yall to get
to the place of true vulnerability, which is what we're
all trying to get to so you can have a
real honest relationship and say what you need, say what's
not working, communicate. But it took this journey for y'all

(01:05:30):
to get to true vulnerability. You know what I say
at the end of Swing Caroline, I said, I had
to bear myself to myself. I had to get a
little naked mm hmm. And then he did too, and
then he did too well. And here's the thing. When
you actually, when you actually face your own vulnerability, you

(01:05:53):
just pick it up and pull it out of your
pocket and go, hey, say that to my face. How
is it that you really feel? What do you really
think about me and austin all of this. What you
do is you are so good with yourself and good
with the continuously in flux doubt that you're good at all, right,

(01:06:15):
Like you're like, that's just part of it, that's just
part of this pie. Then the people around you can't
be in their autopilot anymore because then like they just
kind of balance You're You're like, I'm here for real
life and they're like yeah, You're like, You're like, I'm not.
I'm not playing under the veil anymore. The veil is

(01:06:36):
lifted and it's never coming back. I've walked the Wizard
of Oz, I've made it to Oz, and I've gotten behind.
I know. It's just a little man with a microphone
speaking out loud. There's nothing there, and I'm not going
back to pretending like I'm living in this illusion anymore.
I'm playing in real life. Okay, So when you claim
that space, the person that you're with or has to
either step up or you have to go your own ways. Absolutely,

(01:06:58):
and either way it's fantasy. Stick. What I want people
to know is you can't let the veil sneak back up.
And it will try, and sometimes my eyes will go
under it. I'll be like wait a minute, nope, And
it's like you know those blinds you would pull down
and up and they would like snap back, do you
know old blinds? Okay? And I could. I would always

(01:07:18):
get them down too, lows. I couldn't get them step
and then they did whoop. Yeah exactly. It's like it's
like I have those in reverse in front of me,
and they can just all come up and then I
just have to go nope and they just fall so quickly. Now,
like I can feel when I'm building up old defenses
or my egos telling me a story that's like keeping
me detached for myself and other people, because that's the thing,

(01:07:39):
you it's all one. So to open your heart is
really just to feel very vulnerable, to feel very vulnerable.
So how to keep monogamy hot? Now? How would you say,
how do you keep monogamy hot? Now? Vulnerability number one?
That's that's it, Like you have to be vulnerable, you do.

(01:08:00):
And I don't talk about vulnerability that much, but the
suggestions I have for couples do exactly that a lot
of couples are vulnerable, just feel uncomfortable even talking about sex.
So my first how to keep me monogna hot? Part
one was decide what time of day you're going to
do it? And I said, you know my house, night

(01:08:20):
times are for sleeping in mornings or for coffee, So
I prefer five thirty pm, right before dinner. You know,
autn't empty stuff wonderful. You know, it's like I'm an appetizer. Uh.
People lost their minds. I had been growing by five
followers a year on social media, so I had like
two thousand followers on Instagram. I got my audience group

(01:08:40):
by fifty thou people in forty five days when you
started sharing this, because people need to know. I was
so blown away that people were blown away that, like,
you can talk about sex outside the bedroom, okay. So
there's the people who are like, wait, we just go
do it, we don't talk about it. And then there
are the people who talk about it but like want
more variety or want like a different thing to try,

(01:09:03):
you know. So that's what my content does. It's just
these invitations and then people will go out on a
limb and say, hey, babe, you want to or they'll
text you want to have sex? You want to meet
me in the bedroom at five thirty, right, like you know,
texting your partner for a booty call. That's fine. And
then they'll go and they'll sneak away from the kids,

(01:09:24):
they'll have some hot sex and they'll come out and
they'll be like, oh my god, it feels so good
when we're on the same team, like we just we
had an objective and we went and we just like
we just nailed it right. So then they're like, oh, baby,
I need to tell you something about the way of
ebudding the groceries away. Could you are you willing? Blah
blah blah. They're like, sure, everybody's Mr Yom. This is cooperative,

(01:09:48):
Like this is what I mean. When we just come
lower our defenses just a little bit, then we're more
willing to let the other person in outside the bedroom.
So thousands and thousands of couples have instituted, implemented, They've
implemented my ideas and it's totally changing the way they

(01:10:09):
talk about everything. So you're saying, plan sex, make it
a priority, and then when you're in that open state,
then share some things that really you need to talk
about as a couple that communicate right absolutely when there's
that trots and you just have that shared success like
the great you know when you're on a high, like

(01:10:29):
you know after a great game or a great concert
or something right like, these are things that we don't
get to experience with our spouse very much. That this
is usually something like at work or you know, with
your sports team you like, or or you don't have
it anymore in your life and you're like, oh, where
can I get that rush? So going together and this
is why I love that my husband and I are

(01:10:50):
both former athletes. We'll go in and we'll go in like, well,
we'll want to make like a personal best like okay,
do you think I could have three orgasms in five minutes?
Do you think from right now to that right? So
it's like the intensity goals. We set goals, we have
a plan, we have a play, we have our plays.
We'll say are we doing medium? Where we do we long?

(01:11:11):
It's like we got our game plan and yeah, and
then we can be like, yeah, we executed. And it's
like just that experience of like we are really good
at this together. Because that's why everybody got married. They
thought outside arranged marriages, if you have a consensual marriage,

(01:11:32):
it is we're really good at this, meaning life together.
Ye're really good at this together. So when there are
struggles in life, if you can find one area of
your life where you are ah an epic team, spend
time there, spend time renovating that that garage together when

(01:11:55):
you are where you shine together together a group activity
where you both can shine and be a team, be
a team, and where where it's not just like washing
the dishes together. It's like, you know, you, Caroline, the
strengths that only you bring that Michael goes, thank god,

(01:12:16):
Caroline can do that, and then the strengths that he brings,
and you go, oh my god, thank you for Michael
because he can do that, and together you achieve something
that's like so much better than what you could do
on your own. Those experiences are what reminds us of
why we paired up in the first place, and then

(01:12:37):
it helps us reach for that in a discussion about
what are we going to do for a summer vacation
next year, and you're like, oh, well, I would love this,
and he's like I would love this, And you guys
start to equate your strengths with also your desires and
there's this trust like, oh, yeah, she's got good ideas
and he's got good ideas. How do we how do

(01:12:57):
we bring this together and make it even better? Mm hmm.
You know instead of like one of my way, you
had your way last time, but it was like, no,
we are on the same team. There's no win win.
There's no win win. There's a W for the day.
Did we both feel loved and supported? And did we
expand today or did we not? It's only one of
you did well. It's a it's a come on, let's go,

(01:13:21):
let's go team happy and healthy. Both of you up.
And it takes work, and it takes being intentional, and
it takes connection, and it takes a vulnerability, and it
takes prioritizing it like you have to do all of
those things right. So if people could do that in
the bedroom, then you're checking like a lot of boxes
at once, right. I think that's why so many people

(01:13:43):
love it. Like my d m s are for men,
and most of my readers of Swing are men. And
it was a book I wrote about being unhappily married
to a man. But I just open up and I go,
this is what it feels like to be human. And
they're like, oh my god, I saw myself and you
in the book. I was like, yeah, because we're all
the same on the inside, you know, take out the heart,
all the parts that hurt, they're all similar. Um. But

(01:14:06):
men are going like, oh okay, this is like some
sort of self help stuff that where you know, my
ego is like I can, I can open myself to
this thinking okay, yeah, yeah, we're gonna get some hotter sex,
but oh actually it's all this feeling stuff which actually
I really wanted to talk about, but I needed like
this door light in and yeah I needed a way
And oh my god, Ashley Renard, you are freaking amazing.

(01:14:29):
You're saving marriage is left and right? How to keep
monogamy hot? I freaking love it, author of Swing, Thank
you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom
and your life journey, for being so open and vulnerable
and brave and sharing your story because all of us
can relate. You know, we all want to have a
healthy relationship, and that we get so lost and being
human and all of our own insecurities that we don't

(01:14:52):
realize that we all really want to be on the
same team. We just block ourselves out, you know, and
it comes down to these methods that you share and
it feels like it's sex, but it's really so much more.
It really is. Thank you so much for having me, Caroline.
I freaking love you. So You're amazing. Thank you so
much for today. Hi everyone, Thank you Caroline bye,