BETHANY JOY LENZ: Caught in the Web: Getting Real on Escaping a Cult and Reclaiming Her Power

Bethany Joy Lenz, star of One Tree Hill, opens up about one of the most harrowing chapters of her life—being drawn into a spiritual cult. In a candid conversation, she shares how a combination of intense personal loneliness and the search for belonging made her vulnerable to manipulation. Joy reveals the psychological and emotional tactics used to control her, how the leader exploited her trust, and the dangerous effects of losing autonomy in a groupthink environment. With deep honesty, she discusses the moment of clarity that allowed her to break free, reclaim her power, and reconnect with her true self. This is a story of survival, strength, and the courage to break free from the grip of toxic control. From faith to fame, discover how Joy navigated the spiritual minefield that could have derailed her life and career, and how she emerged stronger and wiser than ever before.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Caryl Lone. She's a queen of talking if it was so,
you know, she's getting really not afraid to feel.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
The episode soul.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Just let it flow.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
No one can do we quiet, Cary Lone, It's time
for Caroline.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
All right. I'm so excited to be here with Bessiny
Joy Lynz. You are phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thank you, so are you. It's great to see you.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Man. I am literally have been just binging your book
Dinner for Vampires. I'm sad I was not someone who
grew up watching One Tree Hill, and now I feel
like I need to go back and binge that because
after like reading your book and then deep diving you
and then I deep dive One Tree Hill, and that
show is like that's like an amazing That show like

(01:06):
shaped our generation. Like I'm forty one, and I feel
like I don't know how I missed watching it, probably
because I didn't watch a whole bunch of TV growing up,
but that was like I know, I know, right, that
was like the show that shaped our like our minds.
I feel like I feel like that. And Friday Night
Lights it's like One Tree Lights were the ones right then.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
That was a big one too. Yeah, the others felt
like they were as much as we love Gossip Girl
in the OC, they were very they lived in that
Beverly Hills nine O, two and O zone of it's
such a rare population of America who live like that.
But the kids that live like us kids in One

(01:50):
Tree Hill and the kids that lived like the Friday
Night Light kids are vastly more. Sorry my sentences aren't
working today. They'll come together eventually, but there's so many
more of the population that lives like that and things
like that and experiences life just in a small town
like that. So I feel like we really kind of

(02:12):
cornered the market on just reflecting back to teens in
America what their life was and they felt seen. And
you should go back and watch it. You definitely should.
It be fun.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
I need to binge it. I love a good show.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
I have a five year old daughter and all I
watch is like Disney.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
And now she's into watching YouTube, like YouTube kids and
all these families just make their own YouTube videos.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
And I'm like, oh my god, I literally it's torture
to watch it.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
But it's I need to watch like real, real content.
And that's our shows were great, you know, that's when
the storylines were good. They lasted a long time. It's just, man,
what a life you've lived, Bethany. Okay, So now that
I'm like diving into your book, I literally you're such
a good storyteller first off, because I am so in

(03:01):
the story with you. When I am reading this, I
feel like I feel like I'm like in your actual
brain walking starting from your childhood with your parents.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Like it's just.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
It makes so much sense, like it's you always wonder.
I'm from Waco, Texas, and we had David Koresh and
the branch Davidians.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
We actually, oh boy, yes, that's right, of course you did.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
You had a cult in our in our town. And
there's been like lots of other little pop up cults
that lots of families join and they're integrated into the city.
But it's definitely always been like cults. So there's a
lot of culty vibes in Wacos. So I've always grown
up with Yeah, I've always grown up like with a
big understanding of cults. But like I always wondered, how

(03:49):
does this happen? Like how does so unusual?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
But maybe it's not unusual. I haven't I'm not a researcher,
but it seems strange to me that in a town
like Waco, where it's known for being the center of
this massive cult event, that others would pop up, so
many others would still pop up in that region that
like people didn't quite learn the lesson. I guess that

(04:17):
is wild.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
It is wild, And there's some other I don't know
if they're called cults. What do you call them? A
focus group or like a what does the other word
you use for that? It's not cult, but it's like
a control group.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah, high demand, high demand group, which that is what
a cult is. It's the definitions are interchangeable.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
High demand group think. I love the group think because
I actually was talking to my friend. We're in Georgia
and I we're saying with some friends, and we were
talking about just faith and how people can have all
sorts of rules with it. Like, so I have some
friends right now who I consider really great friends, who

(05:06):
are like not practicing yoga because they feel like that
is sacrilegious. Then I'm like, and you can probably have
all of these spiritual practices to back it. But at
the same time, like I personally have had so many
spiritual experiences that I have and had myself that it's like,
I know, I have to trust my own intuition and

(05:27):
not other people's advice. What might be good for someone,
or what might someone might feel like is their path,
that does not mean it as my spiritual path. And
I love that. I feel like that's sort of the
point that I'm getting from your book is Yes, someone
can have a spiritual idea and that can truly be
their road, But like, if it does not align with you,

(05:48):
and if it is not your internal guidance system, like
really you need to examine that and really take note
of why are you doing something just because someone is telling.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
You to do them if you don't really know why?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Right, Yeah, it's huge. We do so much in our
life and we don't ask why why do I do this?
I am very neurodivergent, and my tendency is to examine things,
and so I appreciate that not everyone's brain works the

(06:23):
same way that mine does. It's taken me a while
to get to that point. I used to be so
frustrated that people seem to think I was overthinking things
all the time, and people thought I was, you know,
pushing too many buttons, and I was like, oh, that's
because the neurotypical brain, most people's brains aren't endlessly curious

(06:44):
about the why, and so I try and leave space
for that. Just everybody's brain works differently, you know, But
for me, I just I don't know how you can
go through life not ask yourself why? Why? Why? Because
even when I was in this group, it's the why
that got me in, but it's also the why that

(07:06):
got me out. Like it's just the most important question.
I think you can ask yourself with everything. Why do
I eat this? Why am I I'm getting married? Why
do I walk down an aisle? Why do I need
to keep my room clean? Why do I need to
walk my dogs? Why do I pray? Why? And follow

(07:31):
it all the way down? And I think, I mean,
some roads just keep on going. I don't know that
we'll ever arrive at the answer, but you certainly can
arrive at like new layers of understanding of yourself and
other people. Sorry, I didn't mean to go on a tangent,
but yes, you're right that one of the main points
of the book is nobody else can live your life

(07:52):
for you. You have to move with the God of
your understanding at the pace that you're at, And you
also can't dem or judge other people for the pace
that they're at and where they are. You you didn't
grow up as them. You don't know their life, and
you don't know how God is speaking to them or
planning to speak to them. You just don't know. So

(08:14):
there has to be a lot of gray area, and
groups like the one that I was a part of,
really wanted to create boundaries that were so immovable and
inflexible that it feels like safety at first, and then

(08:35):
at some point you go, why am I in prison?
These boundaries are not just for me, but I'm imposing
them on everyone else. So yeah, a lot of gray
areas to try and live in, for sure.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
So I would always wonder, like to myself, like how
do people get in these groups and these cults? Like
how because like, once you hear about it and explodes
on the news and you see, you know, the fallout
of it all, you're like, oh my god, that's awful,
like you know, like no one would do that willingly,
But it's not. It doesn't start like that. And that's
what I feel in hearing your story and even seeing

(09:12):
you talk about your friend Camille in this book and
how she ultimately had too much of a strong connection
to her bio family, her mom and dad.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
That like couldn't be sucked into it.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
It's like they almost know you have to be looking
for a place to belong so desperately. And I feel like, gosh,
when I was reading your story about when you're because
it sounds like your parents were great, Like you know,
they're hippies and they're spiritual, and they were chasing their
dreams and I mean probably lost along the way, but

(09:46):
like on a journey for just trying to figure it
out and make it work. But then like once they
their marriage kind of fell apart and got divorced. And
then when you had to move out, like your dad
remarried and moved away and you're an only child, and
then your mom meet someone online and she's moving to
California and you have to like move out of your
house when you're just graduating from high school. And I'm like,

(10:09):
oh my god, I want to cry right now because
I'm putting myself in your position and feeling you're feeling.
I mean, I actually will cry, and I'm like, oh
my god, of course you're looking for some word too long,
because it's not that your parents don't love you, but
it's like they're off doing their thing, trying to figure
themselves out, and you're just alone at like yeah, and yep,

(10:32):
what are you supposed to do? You know, like you're
you're in You're a good hearted person, You're empathetic, you
have got at the sinner. You're trying so hard to
be this person of God and this good person you're following.
You're acting, and your grandmother Doris, who was like your
inspiration to get you into Broadway and musical and believed
in you, and like you found your group and and

(10:53):
acting and you're pursuing your dreams. But it's like you
don't have any support system at this time, and so
it's yeah, I just feel so much for you, Like
I feel your pain in my heart so much, and
like your just longingness to belong so much because I'm
that same way. I am super empathetic. I've been a
people pleaser my entire life. I have been like always

(11:16):
looking for love and validation. I'm a hopeless romantic, Like
oh my god, it like how hopeless of romantic I've
been my whole life and so like, I just if
I was in your position, I would. But then I'm like,
you did such a great job of like trying to
be this great person. That's what sucks so bad is
you just got so taken advantage of in your innocence,

(11:38):
and then you're like longing to follow God and be
this good person that your good will got so taken
advantage of. And it's just and I know you've turned
it into a beautiful story and you have a beautiful
life because of it, but it's like, man, oh, it's
just hard to it's hard to see it play out.
It's hard to see it play.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Out, and like living it is it.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
It's just it's just it's just I can see how
it happens now, I guess is how because you always
wonder how it happens.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, that's true. You do wonder. A couple of things
that you said about Camille that and for those of
you out there who haven't read the book yet, it's
called Dinner for Vampires. And one of the characters in
the book is this friend of mine who I knew
from New York and she moved to la and she
started going to this Bible study with me and she

(12:32):
had a really strong relationship with her family. And the
particular brand of narcissism that our group leader really had
had a knack for. I guess what his target was
young women who did not have close ties to their family.
That was sort of the way in that he knew

(12:52):
how to how to target actually just young people, and
so Camille was able to kind of spot it. It
took her a minute because she was also young, but
she was more objective about it because of her strong
relationship with her family. But that was just our group,
and there are plenty of others who you know, people

(13:14):
who get involved in these high demand groups. It's not
always just because they need a place to belong. Some
people are just really desperate for validation from other people.
Some people are really afraid of the unknown, and they
just need somebody to tell them what to do. Some people,
and it's not even about groups like that, could just
be an abusive relationship. Because the top notes of narcissism,

(13:37):
whether it's in a toxic work environment or family environment,
or church or a romantic relationship, they're all the same.
It's just what's your achilles heel kind of depends on
which you may be susceptible to. And my hope in
one of my hopes in writing this book was for

(13:57):
people who like you, who are questioning, how does somebody
even get involved in something like this to go, oh,
I see how step by step by step, one thing
that seems kind of reasonable, and you're like, Okay, I
guess I could buy that if I was in that position,
if I really wanted to have a family, I guess
I could. This would feel good. Okay, the next thing, Yeah,

(14:19):
I mean it's a little it's a little out there,
but you know what isn't Like, Hey, everything in the
world you never know, you know, and you just start
making excuses. Well, my hope is that it will be
a reflection in a way for people to be able
to look at their own lives and go, what is
it in my life? Like for Joy, it was a
real need for a place to belong. Well, I feel

(14:40):
like I have a polace to belong. But I may
be really afraid of hell, I might be really afraid
of failure. Maybe I'm so afraid of not being financially
secure that I am making compromises in my life and
my belief system and I'm not asking myself that well,
I question about some things because I'm too afraid of

(15:04):
losing the financial security or the eternal security or whatever
those things are. And so I'm hoping that it's relatable
in that way, because, yeah, the word cult is a
hot button word and it's exciting and everybody wants to
find out the dirt. But the truth is we are
all susceptible to manipulation. And the other thing you mentioned about, oh,

(15:27):
I just don't know how anybody would make that choice.
It just seems so crazy. And it's not a choice,
it's coercion. And that's how coersion works, don't You don't
know that you're in it. You don't see that you've
been manipulated, so there is no actual choice involved. But
it's hard to see it when you're in it. You can't,
you know, it's the nature of it.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
It's wild though, because it is such a slow grow
And like I know you've renamed everyone in this book,
but like the leader less or whatever, who was a
guy in charge of this group, but he didn't even
you didn't even start with him, Like I feel like
that's the thing that's crazy is it's like you started
with these two brothers and their parents in this Bible study.

(16:08):
And it was just super kind of casual. It didn't
really feel like anything crazy. It just kind of felt
like yo were gathering. You were a bunch of actors
in Hollywood. You're trying to keep your faith, you were
looking for community. You'd moved from New York where you
felt like you had community, and now you're here in
La and like you said, it's like so spread out,
everybody's doing their own things.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
So here's this group of people just trying.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
To have a Bible study. I mean, who how news
are everywhere? You know? And you met. It's not like
you were recruited. It was like your friend who was
also an actress that you lived with, was just going.
So it's not like with some crazy like let's capture
these people and get them in our group. It was
like you came there voluntarily looking for this group. So

(16:50):
it's like, yeah, there's no nobody was like tricking you
into it. It was a gentle process, but like.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Happen, Yeah, there was no recruitment and like.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
You just showed up at someone's house and you go
back on your way and keep doing your auditions and
you keep showing up. How did it grow do you?
How did less get into the picture? Because like, I
feel like it was like two different things before and everyone.
I really encourage everyone to read this book. It is
such an incredible just story. If this is not made
into a movie, I will be shocked. But I mean
it's literally it is just such a you cannot stop

(17:23):
reading it. But it starts off. You're in this Bible study.
These two young brothers who are also actor as musicians,
are leading it with their parents, who support their creativity.
They probably are a little intense in their church, the
parents are, but it doesn't feel like anything heavier than
other people going to church.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
How did yea?

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Is he always going to come in?

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Was that like always a part of the plan that
like he was going to come in? Because I feel
like until he joined y'all's group, it might have just
been this fine little Bible study. But then he comes
in from Idaho and takes it over.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, so the one caveat to that everything you said
is true except Pam. Pam is the mother of the
two boys, and really she is really an unhealthy person.
Pam had a real void in her life with young
women and daughters, and she was almost pathological about her

(18:19):
intention toward her movement toward the young women in the
group and taking them under her wing as her own
and wanted to be seen as mother to these young women.
It was still very it was so minimal, and you know,
especially for young women, a lot of the young women

(18:41):
in the group who had very tempestuous relationships with our
own mothers, like me, Pam represented it a warmth and
availability and a guidance that I really had longed for
in my own life, and some of the other girls
in the group also longed for that, and so so
it just felt like a mentor. You know, so many

(19:03):
people have mentors. So it just felt like, Okay, I've
got this amazing older woman who is a mentor figure.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
And because her son was an actor, the other one
was a musician, like it felt like just a sweet
little family.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Probably yeah, yeah. But Camille noticed it, and you know,
if you notice when you read the book, Less and
Camille had minimal interaction. But Camille really left because of
Pam and because of what Pam did and an interaction
that she had with her with Camille's mother.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
And so.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
I think Pam really was the first unhealthy thing that
was going on, sort of bubbling under the surface that
none of us noticed. And if it had just been that,
I think she would have exposed herself. It all would
have sort of come to light to the surface, and
either it would have been dealt with within the safety

(20:00):
of the pretty healthy group of friends, or she would
have refused to deal with her issues and the group
probably would have disbanded at that point. And so when
Les came in, he's a pastor from their home state
in Idaho. And when he came in, he came in
at the invitation of Pam and Ed, her husband and

(20:25):
their two sons, because Pam and Ed had been to
one of his church services at the church that he
had been pastoring before he got kicked out, which of
course is not the way that it was explained to us,
but they had seen him speak, they recommended him to
the boys. The boys heard him speak. He was a
gifted he's a gifted speaker, and they invited him to

(20:50):
come down as sort of a guest speaker in the group,
not really known without really knowing him, and it was
really just like, hey, you know, you're in a tough spot.
You're you're not you don't have a church anymore. Your
church kind of disbanded, which was what they were told,
And we'd love to help you out and give you
a place to continue ministering. We've got this Bible study

(21:13):
in La. Why don't you come visit and just give
preach a serment on you know, on Saturday night.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
So it really was all like happenstance. It's like that
was the moment that like took it to this other
direction that it didn't start with.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, no, he didn't. He didn't even know who we were.
And I would wager that Pam and Ed were invited
to Less's old church by someone who knows he met them,
got to talking with them, found out that their sons
are in Hollywood and that Ed was a doctor, and went, oh,
these people have money. I need to spend more time

(21:48):
with them. And I think he probably targeted them were
you know, spent a few months making or building a relationship,
then then got his invitation down to La, and who
knows if it was an invitation or if he was like, man,
I'd just love to come bless your group in La,
Like could I come down and say hi? And they
were probably like sure, But I wasn't there for that conversation,

(22:09):
So that's previous speculation, and then got to LA and
so I do think there was absolutely a measure of
intentionality and targeting that happened from Less toward the Van
Hewitts and then toward our group as a whole. But yeah,
there was I guess, I guess you could call it happenstance.

(22:31):
I mean, looking back now, I've I see so much
positive that has come into my life because of these
really unbelievably ten difficult ten years that I don't know,
is it happenstance or is it some sort of huge

(22:51):
blessing in disguise for all of us that were a
part of it that Yeah, we lost money, and we
lost time, and we lost we all probably have some PTSD,
I know we do. But what we're able to offer
on the other end of that in terms of life
experience and wisdom for things like narcissistic abuse and spiritual

(23:15):
abuse and how to protect our kids and teach our
kids things about about our faith. I mean, my faith
is completely transformed since I had that experience, and I
don't think it would have If I hadn't gone through that,
I'd probably still be stuck in the same rut that
I was back then. So I don't know happenstance are

(23:35):
a blessing or a curse. Either way, it's all good now.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
I really agree with you. I believe that deeply that
everything can and will be turned into a blessing if
you can get to the other side of it, you know. Yeah, yeah,
and you die in the middle of it, then you
you don't get the chance to receive the blessing because
what you had to endure and what you had the

(24:13):
mountain you had to climb out of to get to
the other side was so large and you had so
much to I guess when you had that moment. When
did you have the moment where you're like, oh my god,
Because now you're married, you're in it. You've married Lessa's son,
so you know. Also, it's just like the pressure there.
It's like you're not even being able to trust your

(24:34):
own intuition about what marriage is and what love is,
you know, because it has to be run through the
group and the leaders of that. Yeah, they're telling you
what it is, even though you're kind of expressing to them.
I don't feel what I think I'm supposed to be
feeling here and they're like, oh no, no, I don't
even It's just you didn't even know how to trust
your own instincts. It felt like because but the whole
point then, other thing that's crazy is the whole point

(24:56):
is you're not supposed to give You're only supposed to
rely on your relationship. But I guess it only if
it is approved to the family. You're only supposed to
rely on yourself. They are telling you not to trust
any other external forces, but for some reason.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
They're okay, yeah, that's exactly right, And that's how gaslighting works.
That's that's absolutely how that works. You can trust your
instincts as long as they are in line with mine,
and if your instincts are not in line with mine,
then there's something wrong with you and you need to
examine yourself, or we need to have a therapy session,

(25:30):
or you need prayer or whatever it is. But I'm
never wrong. You're always wrong. If there's something off, if
we disagree, it's got to be you. That's that's how
the abuse works. And because you trust these people, and
the trust happens in small increments, but eventually there is

(25:50):
so much trust that you've given over that and I
we're so young, Like you're like, yeah, I mean, I
don't have any guidance. I guess you you're looking out
for me. You've proven that you're looking out for my
best interests, and you're honest with me in really hard ways,
and you still love me, And like, why would I

(26:11):
not trust someone who is so consistently showing me the
way I understand love? So yeah, I guess if I'm
I guess if I'm thinking something different than you are,

(26:31):
I'm probably the one that's off because you're the older,
wiser one with more experience. It's tricky, it's stricky. It
happens all the time. It happens to girls and they're
college professors. It happens to you know, young young family
members looking looking at their parents, like parents who just
can't let their kids go, and it becomes this whole
like emotional incest thing where the kids just can't like

(26:54):
you know, parents can't let go and the kids can't
extract themselves because they're afraid to live their own life.
It's everywhere. It's there's so many different dynamics of this,
which is which is wild because I remember when I
first got out, you were asked me what that moment was.
There wasn't one particular moment there were there was a
string of them. Becoming a mother was a huge kick

(27:15):
in the ass. And yes, yeah, just sorry, Sagan.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
The world just looks completely different, it does.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Everything looks so different. Yeah, so that was that was big.
And I talk about a few of the moments where
the group really started falling apart in the book. But yeah,
there wasn't one particular moment. But once I started climbing
out of it, I'm sorry, I forgot. I had a

(27:53):
train of thought, I had a point, but I can't
remember where I was going with it.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
It was like a particular moment when you left, within
a string of moments when you left, and how you
knew to get out, how you knew it was to it.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Was right before that. Whatever I was saying right before that,
I was leading to a point, But I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
I that's the story of my life.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
I so what Yeah?

Speaker 1 (28:13):
How did it finally happen? Though? Like for everyone listening,
like the string of mo was happening, A series of
things happened. You realize you started to realize, I feel
like Abe and mean, I don't know it's her name
Mina in the book even they got everything, and like
you said, there was hairline fractures that started to become
a big yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, Harker and Mina they started to leave first and
then Abe and yeah, there were there were some fractures throughout,
and there were people who could see sooner than other
people that something was off in terms of categorizing it
as a high demand group or cults that didn't happen

(28:53):
until later, like in therapist's office offices. And that was
a whole other thing. Oh, that's what I was going
to say, something about the shame of it all, Like
I was so embarrassed and felt like I couldn't believe

(29:13):
this had happened to me. And there's just so much
shame attached to coercion because you don't understand that coercion
that you didn't choose it, you were coerced into it.
And it's really hard to wrap your brain around the
idea of forgiveness when and forgiving yourself when forgiveness generally

(29:36):
means something you did something wrong, But I didn't do
anything wrong. I was just trusting. But anyway, one of
the things I was really encouraged to find out about
when I did leave was how much of this these
patterns are just out there in the world, And it's
not such a bizarre, niche thing that I experienced. It's

(30:00):
something that people experience all the time in different formats,
and sometimes it's a group or a church, or a
yoga class, or or a family or a workplace or
a romantic relationship. But the shame really lessens when you
realize what a universal problem this is, because narcissism is

(30:24):
just it's a personality style that exists all of the world.
What was his just control and then.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Access to money, that's where you said he was targeting
maybe Hollywood.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, yeah, he wanted money. I mean, he wanted his
lifestyle to be funded, but he didn't want a group.
So he's kind of lazy, Like I don't think he
wanted a real big group to have to look after.
It's a lot of people that have to manage, manipulating.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah, do you love what?

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Too much work? So we capped out about twenty eight
and I think, yeah, I think he was like, this
is enough. I can't keep track of all the rest
of these people.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
More chance of rebellion too.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, exactly, And it's a lot there's so much triangulation.
There's so much keeping track of which pair, sorry, which
partner in a couple is loyal to you, and which
one you have to sort of keep pushing out. I
would imagine you have to figure out who is where
and who's thinking what, and like it just became this
thing where everybody I remember one of the couples had

(31:30):
to go ask him permission to buy a car, like
like finance, so so much control, So the money I
think was less important than maintaining the status quo of control,
which is so bizarre. Like I mean, I think he

(31:50):
really just wanted the money so that he didn't ever
have to work. But it's not like he had ambitions
with the money. Well maybe he you know, he started
a hotel and we did this restaurant, but he's not
out there trying to build the next He's not like
Birdie made off. He's not like creating some massive thing

(32:12):
where he's trying to embezzel millions and billions of dollars.
He just wants to be able to order steak and
taco a beut whenever he wants, and you know, not
have to mow his lawn and not have to pay
for cable. This is where like talking about the bottom
of the barrel.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Truly, And that's the thing why it is so tricky
because also with some colts or high intense groups, I
feel like there is always like a sexual undertone too,
where it's like the leaders always trying to sleep with everybody.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
And take advantage of And I didn't get that vibe.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
I mean, obviously I'm not there in urtream the book,
but that didn't feel like a huge overtone or undertone
of his motives. Am I wrong with that?

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Well? So I didn't experience that. But I was also
in North Carolina nine months out of the year filming
One Tree Hill, and he knew my biggest issue was
a place I wanted, a family and a place to belong.
So there were other people in the group who didn't
have that exact trigger, like they maybe grew up in

(33:13):
big families already, and they still felt like they were
missing something, and he knew how to target that in them.
But those people who were there more year round got
to see family arguments, They got to see him like
yelling at his wife. They saw all this stuff that
I never saw because he was so meticulous about making

(33:35):
sure that Joy always felt like she was walking into
the perfect family. And I didn't find this out untill later.
And so because of that, and because of the things
that I found out by interviewing former members of his
old church, and there was a lot of sexual misconduct there.
There was. I heard a lot of stuff. I heard

(33:58):
a lot of stuff about him sleeping with people who
were underage, about him sleeping with wives of church members,
about him facilitating abuse of young women. There was a
whole thing with the foster kids that were in and
out of the church that was it was really, really
fucking super dark. So I heard enough of these stories

(34:22):
corroborated that it and based on there was definitely always
some weird sexual undertone between Pam and Kurt and less
like the triangle of the triangle of that. So I
don't know if anything ever happened, nothing that I ever
saw with my own eyes.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
So I gave you that huge dose of hydropodon.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
I don't know, No, I'll never know. I mean, I
wrote it as a mystery because it's a mystery to me,
but it was. But I actually spoke with another I
just got this message a couple of weeks go from
someone who was in the group early on, and she
wasn't a character in the book. I didn't have space

(35:06):
for everyone. There was enough to keep track of already.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Wait, this is a huge story. I mean it is,
you know, this is this is like the story people
write stories and act to create them, but like this
is actually the story of all stories.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
It's huge, and there's so many characters and there's I'm
glad you're able to keep track of everything. But anyway,
she said, she read the book and she went, oh
my god, joy, I never told you this. When I
was with Less and Pam, no excuse me. When I
was with Ed and Pam, I stayed with them once
and they I was also medicated. They gave me a

(35:44):
bunch of pills that and I was exhausted and like
slept it off. And she was there with her five
year old daughter and she was just like, they were like,
you need to rest, just take a break here, you know,
this will help you sleep, and same same deal. So
which I didn't know. I didn't know that had happened
to anybody else except me and the girl that I

(36:05):
talk about at the end. But yeah, apparently that was
part of their thing. So that's what I mean, like
it's it's such a terrifying The book even still to
me reads like a hitchcock, like when I go back
and look at it, like I still get the hebgvs
even though I wrote it, because it's just this slow,
slow burn of terrifying unwinding and it gets darker and

(36:28):
darker and darker, and by the end of it, like
the revelation of how dark things got that I never
even saw from the stories that I heard from people
who had been involved with him before and the people
who started come out of the woodwork. I mean, it's
I thank god that I was not exposed to a
lot of that, because it got way worse than anything

(36:49):
I saw.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
It is just so terrifying that people want to take
advantage of people. You know, and you were in Hollywood
at the same time, and I know all sorts of
things went down on the set of One Tree Hill,
like with you know, also dealing with powerful people wanting
to have power over people, and you just saw it everywhere.

(37:13):
But it's like, it's crazy. To me, I just don't understand.
And maybe it's because I was born such an empathetic
person and I'm like, so I'm a hardiest breaks for
the suffering and breaks for the innocent, and it always
has that. I just cannot understand how people want to
abuse and take advantage of people, Like I just can't
get it, Like how can that bring someone joy?

Speaker 2 (37:34):
You know, yeah, don't. I don't know. I mean I
I I think people who were raised without control, like
where they had no control in their life must have
a deep desire to assert it in any place that

(37:56):
they can, like a just this childish drive to as
certain control anywhere. So I don't know how Less was raised.
I don't know what the childhood issues and things were there,
But it's got to be so twisted, especially as an actor,

(38:17):
you know, you have to you have to be able
to put yourself in the shoes of anyone incluting somebody
who's doing things that are really what I would call
evil if you like that definition. But it's hard. It's
really hard for me too to try and understand. Like,

(38:40):
if I were going to play a character like this,
he has to believe that he is right and righteous
and doing something good out there in the world, like
he knows he's being dishonest, but then like the ends

(39:00):
justifies the means manifest destiny I don't know. Isn't that
what we did when we came over and massacred all
the Native Americans? The ends justified the means.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
Like, like you said, it happens everywhere, all over the place,
all the time, and we just are living in it constantly.
So it's like, how do you even not It's hard
to even avoid that. It's all around.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yeah, And where's the line?

Speaker 1 (39:30):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
It is, because where's the line between good person and
bad person? I don't even know that that those terms
are relevant, like we use them all the time. But
I I've get pissed off at people in traffic and
cut them off. I've done that before. I've lied because
I didn't want to have to wait in a line.

(39:55):
I've like, I've hurt people's feelings unintentionally. I've I've hurt
people's feelings. I've done things knowing it was going to
hurt people's feelings and then pretended like I didn't know,
and then when it did, just apologize because I knew
they'd forgive me. I've done some shitty stuff, like I
think I think we all have, and I'm I'm just
bearing it all because I'm a human. And like then

(40:18):
I have to, then I have to that's between me
and God. I gotta go wrestle with that and really
deal with my conscience on that, which is not nice
to me. And so I try not to do things
like that anymore because my conscience really is very intense.
But like, where at what point do you cross over

(40:40):
from We call those like white lies, we call them. Oh,
it's just a little yeah, everybody does that. Oh, everybody
makes excuses. Oh, don't you know, don't be so hard
on yourself. Everybody, Okay, but how many of those in
a row does it take before you're a less before
before you become a pam and somebody who is a

(41:04):
real perpetrator of evil because it doesn't happen overnight for
them either, the same way I didn't just get into
a cult. It's a slow burn. There's there are years
there of convincing yourself that there's a good reason for
what you're doing and why I have to do this
quote unquote bad thing, but ultimately it's best for me

(41:27):
to do this. So how like, I think we all
need to be vigilant again to the why question. I
don't think it's satisfactory to just sit back and live
your life and like, oh, just take it easy. Everything's
like I think we really should be thinking about things
all the time because it's just too easy. It's too

(41:49):
easy to just fall into convincing yourself of anything.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
One of my favorite artists right now is Jelly Roll
because I think he's such a redemptive story. You know,
he was, yeah, parcerated, he was like you know, doing
drugs and like in and out of jail since he
was a teenager and just had like a rough go
at it, and then he completely turned his life around
and he truly like we just went to his concert

(42:14):
and he it's like you can feel that he is
wanting people to heal.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
He's wanting to shed light and that no one.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
Is too broken. Anything is possible to heal, and you
were just anyone. And he did this interview with Jay Shetty,
and I feel like he said something that I feel
like is one of the wisest things I've ever heard,
and he said, now, when someone is like this kind
of person that we're talking about, because you're right, all
of us do bad things. Of course we do. We're human.
But when someone enters into that place where they are

(42:43):
just truly like on a mission to take advantage. It's
not that's wrong with you, it's more like what happened
to you, you know, like what happened to make you
this way? Because something so painful happened to you to
wire you and true you to be this way because
you're not born though we're all born pure, you know.

(43:04):
And yeah, and it gives you MThe but then you
have to be held responsible for your actions at some point,
you know, you have to do.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, you got to be held responsible for
your actions. That's why having close friends that you can

(43:36):
talk to about stuff and be honest about, or having
a relationship with God, a god of your understanding where
you can sit down at the end of every day
and just open up and say, here's the things that
I did today that I don't feel great about. Or
the Catholics do it in confession, or you know, whatever
it is. There has to be space to expose the

(44:01):
things that we attached ourselves to that are not really
who we are and who we want to be, and
then we can lay those out and then experience the
remorse and have the shame taken away, and then we
can start a fresh day the next the next time,
but if we don't, if we just hold onto the
shame or just try and brush it onto the rug

(44:21):
and ignore those things about ourselves, I think that it
just builds up and it eats away, and then you
either don't want to think about things too much and
you just kind of like, la la la la la.
I'm not going to think about life like I'm just existing,
which is its own kind of pain and irresponsibility. Or

(44:42):
you start feeling like the world owes you something and
you start taking it out on other people. I mean, man,
it is it's really really valuable to have a space
to release shame. You got to figure it out.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
That is so true.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
So who is God to you now? Because you've been
on a mission to find him your whole life.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, who is God to you now? A great mystery?
But I won't stop there because I think that's a
cop out. A friend.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Like a true friendship with you?

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Have you felt a true friendship with him?

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Like?

Speaker 3 (45:27):
Have you felt your own true friendship with him?

Speaker 2 (45:30):
I really have. I've always felt a friendship with God.
I but there was this looming. It was a friendship
that was like that was still performative. I was still
trying to do all the right things in order to
keep that friendship intact. And it's the great it's the

(45:56):
great mistake of Christians. It's like the play of Christians
to live in this great the great mistake of thinking
that it's it's the exact opposite of the Gospel and
the irony of people of people who have ah experienced

(46:19):
the love of God and and experience the love that
love of God through Christ and then still turn around
and try and earn it and spend the rest of
their life trying to keep it and earn it. It
defeats the purpose. And it's actually that just turns into

(46:40):
pride because then we're then we're just trying to It's like,
thanks for thanks for rescuing me, God, but I got
it from here. Let me prove to you how worthy
I am of you having rescued me. So that's what
I lived in for many years of my life, and
certainly what I was in when I was involved with

(47:01):
this group. And then when I got out and I
finally kind of thrust not kind of very not figuratively
either or very literally thrust two middle fingers up to
God and is said, screw you. I did all the
right things, and you screwed me over.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Honestly, I think that's really healthy to have some anger
because now you're actually having a real relationship because you're
saying to God, like, God, I did everything for you
to be this perfect person, and my life has gotten
nothing but tortured. You know, you got all this you
were not. You do not get the prize or whatever

(47:44):
people say you're gonna get if you are perfect. It
didn't happen. So it's like, screw you. You know. I
am grateful when people of faith say that they get
to that point because I'm like, now we're getting somewhere. Now,
we're actually going to have a relationship here, because if
you can't get mad at someone you love, then how
can you ever be honest and real about who you
are inside?

Speaker 2 (48:05):
You know, that's absolutely right, that's it, And I wish
I knew it sooner, but it wasn't my time to
learn it, or maybe this was the only way I
could learn it because I'm really stubborn, and God's like, man,
this is going to take ten years to get this,
really get this.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Drive it home for her girl in such a big way.
The message, this is what God's saying, He's like I'm
putting you through this, but your message is gonna be epic.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yes, I know, that's what I've been saying. This is
like a twenty year redemption arc. It's taken so long,
but finally here. But yeah, it's You're absolutely right. Like
Christians are, we have a tendency to want to just
do it ourselves, improve it. And when I finally got
to that point, it was like God went, thank goodness, Okay, yes,

(48:52):
exactly exactly. You can work your ass off, you can
try and do all the right things, and it does
not guarantee you. You cannot do it on your own.
You can't do it. You can't earn love. You are
worthy of love because you are just as I am.

(49:15):
You are, and that makes you worthy of love. And
there's nothing you can so stop it. Stop trying to
earn it, which is so anti anti anticlimactic, anti antithetical
to the way that we want to try and live
our lives, improve things, and improve our value. You know,
we're beings that are made for ambition and building things

(49:38):
and proving things. And it's a total wipeout of pride.
You just can't have any pride if you didn't do
anything to earn it, to earn this love. So that's
where I sit right now, and I still try and
prove it every day, but I'm at least cognizant of it,
and I can recognize generally when I'm trying to earn

(50:00):
my love. I'm much better at stopping myself in my
tracks now and hopefully that's something I can pass on
to my daughter, who will leap frog off of my
back and maybe not have the same issues that I did.
But yeah, God is a great mystery and a great
friend and so so sovereign and so just boggles my

(50:24):
mind at the intentionality in relationship and the sovereignty over
everything to be able to maintain all of it and
love us all. And it's a relief. I don't feel
like I have to convert anybody anymore. I don't feel
like it's my job to go save anyone. I don't
feel like it's my job to fix anyone. I just

(50:47):
get to show up, and He is loving if I
know how to be.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
So. My grandfather passed away about five years ago, and
he never really like had strong faith in God. He
was kind of I would say, he was sort of
a atheist per se, but he was so smart. I
don't know if he was atheists, he just like he
was so smart. He was chiropractory into natural feeling. He
was just he read all sorts of biographies. He was

(51:15):
a very wise, wise person. He would go talk to
the preachers and have like very theory like long philosophical conversations,
and then he was just always learning. And so he
never had a set path of this is the way.
He was always scoring. And so he never really really.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Really let me see the squirreld he never had.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
He never really had like this strong, strong, strong well,
he didn't. He never had a really strong religious faith.
He probably had his own faith, but it wasn't like
anything defined. So I thought it was very interesting that
when he passed away, I've never had a vivid dream
in my entire life, Like I have had dreams, but
never a vivid He came to me in a dream
like two days after he passed away, and it was
the wowvid dream I have ever had in my entire life.

(52:04):
And he basically said to me, like he's great and
everything's wonderful, and he was like, what happens is you
He's like what I have been doing? Is you go
up into this next realm, which is just like right
above us. It's just with nobody, but it's still the
spirit realm. And it was so cute. He was waiting
for me.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
He always dressed in slacks and he was always looking nice.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
And I was like coming out of the bathroom out
of a nice restaurant, becase he'd alway take us to
nice dinners.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
And he was waiting side of the bathroom and.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
His flax and his Chris shirt all took dinner to
the mustache. And he looked so handsome. He was like
six or four, and he was waiting for me. He
was like hey, baby, like he always used to say.
And then we just you just started telling me everything
that was happening to him in heaven or not in heaven.
This next realm, which is big. What happened is you
get a life review. And he was like, every single

(52:54):
tiny detail that has ever happened in your entire life,
you see it from like above, all the players in
your life, all the people, all the different characters that
make up your personal story of your life. None of
it really is random.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
They all are coming in to teach you these big
life lessons and you have to do a life review.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
You have to go through every single, tiny, tiny microsecond
of your entire existence. But it's not like in time,
because there is no time. But it's like you see
your whole life.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
It's like you see.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Every tiny grain of sand that made up the existence
of who you are, and you have to replay the
whole thing. And you're responsible for your karma in each situation.
So basically it's like whatever your energy was, your karma.
It's not like you're going to hell. It's not like
you're a bad person, but you have to alchemize that karma,

(53:45):
like you have to clear it. In other words, so
you have this life experience because basically what I was
gathering is we are here to have a human physical
experience because you don't have a physical body in that
next realm.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
It's all yeah, God, it's all you.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Can see it all.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
There's no good, there's no bad, it's just is.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
So you come down here so you can have these
physical experiences and learn these things that you can't learn
when you don't have a human body. And so you
just have to go through and relive every single situation
and then you have to be made aware of your karma.
And it washes over you, like you realize what it
all was for. You can see you see the lessons

(54:28):
where you were wrong, where people did you wrong, and
you make it like that alchemizes the word I keep
coming back to, because you have to just turn it
into what it is supposed to be, which is a lesson,
which is ultimately love, which is all for the greater
good of your soul's evolution.

Speaker 3 (54:44):
Because you have now experienced this, it's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Wow, what a dream. That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
I recorded it into my voice memo so I would
never forget.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
What do you mean by karma? What is that definition?

Speaker 1 (54:58):
I kind of think of it forever. There's an equal
and opposite reaction. And that's why, like with your story,
like you have such a big story, like you know,
like your book is so big, Like there is so
much in here, so much, so much that you went
through that like really integrated into your being hurt your soul,
like made you who you are, like stretched you into

(55:20):
expanded you into ways that were humongous. You know that
a lot of people, everybody has their own trauma. My
therapist says, we all have little trauma. Some people have
big teeth, little t trauma or big T trauma you
have like big T little treat You have all the traumas, you.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Know, all the kinds.

Speaker 1 (55:37):
So your soul is so expanded and what you have
experienced that it's like what.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
Was done to you will be done for you ultimately.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
So it's like whatever pain you endured that was so big,
the reaction of what will come back to you is
also that big and on the other side. So that's
why I feel like You're book is making such waves
and your story is so impactful, and why God truly
did is using your journey, and none of this is

(56:09):
forsaken because because of what you endured and you had
the voice and the ability and the platform to be
able to write this story to show this kind of
awareness which ultimately brings people to the truth of what
God is, not what man tries to make God. No,
it's pain that you went through for this story that
you are now sharing. Whatever however bad this felt in you,

(56:33):
is how good it will feel because you are sharing it,
and the karma of the negativity that happened, I feel
like you will receive the positivity of the light and
the same measurement, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Oh, I hope it's one hundredfold more, let me tell you.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
But it's so big.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Hefter all that shit I went through, I want. I
don't want it the same. I wanted double, triple, quadruple.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
But I believe that because you expanded. I think of
it like an hourglass. You know, it's however big the
hourglass goes that way. You come through the tiny little middle,
and it's gonna go the other way. You know.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
It's interesting.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
The whole earth is a balancing act. It has to
balance out. So you have to be balanced for this
because the work to get to the other side, to
get to the healing, to get to what God truly is,
which is a personal relationship that only you can have
that no one can tell you. Yes, you kind of
mentors and guys, but you got to God through this.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Yeah, absolutely, that was it. That was my He used
that as as the mechanism to get me to a
much more authentic place. And I believe me. I got
plenty to learn, I got plenty to process through. There's
still yeah, But but I don't know where I would
be if I hadn't had the gift of this experience. Truly,

(57:56):
It's like it's a whole It's a whole new world
that opened up to me in my relationship with God.
So yeah, I feel really grateful.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
How did you decide it was time to read the book?
And were you scared shitless to write it? Because like
letting everybody.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
Know about these what was happening and these people are
still alive, I'm assuming you.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Know, yeah, I mean yeah, but I think the hard part,
what the hard part for me was just making sure
that I would do justice for the people who helped
and the people that were also in that experience with me.
For me, I feel like because of what we just
talked about, everything that I went through in the relationship,
the more authentic relationship I have with God. Now I

(58:39):
have arrived at a place I think knock on wood
somewhere that I really feel like I've got nothing to lose.
I kind of don't care what people think of me,
even though I did my hair today like a really thanks,
but you know, I don't, uh, I don't have anything
to lose, Like I'm gonna be taken care of. God's
proven over and over and over that He's got me.

(59:02):
And whether I had to have to live in my
car or which I don't think is ever gonna happen,
but even if it did, like, there is nothing, there's
nothing I have to lose. What do I have to lose?
Certainly not my pride, certainly, not like my reputation. I
was in a cult. It doesn't get weirder than that, so,
you know, and I think at this point it was

(59:24):
just like, well, I don't have anything to lose, and
what I do have is something to gain by helping people,
and other people have things to gain, like I can
gain that a sense of gratitude and connection to other
people by telling this story and being of service and

(59:47):
seeing how that helps out in the world, and hopefully
it does. So it wasn't scary in that way emotionally.
People have been asking me that a lot, because it's
so scary to put your story out there. I'm like,
it's not really, because, uh, it's empowering. It's it's getting
rid of.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
The people in the group coming after you or anything.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
No, what are they gonna do? They're broke anyway, I
think they already spend all my two million dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Are you worried they're going to kill you or something?
I always scared people are gonna kill me. I don't
know why.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
I know, even if they did, I it's like I
don't I mean, I'm a I'm a very I know
it's not modern, but I'm a stoic in a lot
of ways. And I am not afraid of death. I
don't want I don't think i'm ready. I don't think
it's my time. But there's very little that I'm afraid

(01:00:41):
of existentially cosmically i'm afraid of. I don't like pain.
I don't like you know, if somebody who's gonna come
torture me, i'd probably be afraid of that, but i'd
figured out I don't know. No, I'm not afraid of them.
They've got a it's between them and God. Like, if

(01:01:03):
God's protected me this long, if he wants to send
me through another battle with them, please don't. But if
he did, I would be okay. On the other end,
it's just another part of life. We all have things
to deal with.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
I love that, Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
I can't believe already be talking ab hour. Just have
like a few more questions and then we'll wrap up.
And what was it like being on one tree hill?

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
You had spent your whole life trying to you know,
go to these auditions your mom and dad were taking
you to like stuffing your kid. You joined theater. You
found you're passionate at a young age, and you're pursuing
it from a super young age. So it was like
at least ten years maybe longer, that you had been
realizing you were great at this. You had the gift.
It's you're getting like progress. People are validating you. Yes, yes, yes,

(01:01:59):
you're so great, but nothing quite ever like clicked. And
then all of a sudden, here comes One Tree Hill,
something that you didn't even really want to do because
you thought it was like to high.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
School and wasn't going to be as profound as it was.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
And you're like, I'm gonna do movies, and I totally
like if you take a show like that, then you're
never gonna be able to be like a real actress
or whatever. But you take the show and it goes
freaking berserk, The world goes crazy. What is that like?
Was it? Were you looking for that feeling of the
world loving and embracing you. Was that something you were
looking forward to? What did it feel like when the

(01:02:30):
whole world loved you?

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
I never knew that feeling because you why no, Well,
I first of all, we were in Wilmington, not La,
so we saw very little of it on a very
functional level. We were just in a tiny, little beach
town and everybody left us alone and nobody, you know,

(01:02:56):
we were just kids and kids in a town that
did some art. They didn't care. And I, at the
moment when my career really would have taken off, I
was involved in this group who was encouraged, who were
encouraging me to not continue to pursue my acting career,

(01:03:16):
and so I didn't take any other jobs. So I did. Yeah,
so I didn't end up with my face everywhere experiencing
that kind of fame that you're talking about. But I
can tell you I know people who did, and it's
not fulfilling, Like I know a lot of people who've

(01:03:39):
personally very well who have experienced that level of adoration,
and it's virtually meaningless, and bizarrely, it actually creates a
lot of problems in relationship because when someone does want
to love you sincerely, you don't have space for or

(01:04:01):
you don't know how to receive love because it all
just feels like lip service. It all feels like people
everybody just blow and smoke up your ass all the time.
So then you start craving the company of people who
will tell you negative things about yourself because you're like,
something's got to be wrong with me. I can't be like,
I know something's messed up about me somewhere, like I'm

(01:04:23):
not perfect? Is anybody willing to just love me enough
to tell me the truth? And then you get yourself
into situations around people that are not healthy because most
people who are willing to be that direct I would say,
perhaps some kind of ulterior motive. It's really hard to
find a friend who's that true to be loyal, loving

(01:04:49):
and honest. That's tough. Well what especially, yeah, while you're
in Hollywood, absolutely so hard to find those. So for
the measure of success I experienced. I certainly experienced the
other side of that, that craving a mirror of someone

(01:05:12):
to love me and still acknowledge that I'm not perfect,
which I deeply knew and wanted to be seen. I
wanted to be seen, but I didn't. I didn't experience
the level of adoration of like some of the other
people that I know who did, and I'm glad I didn't.

(01:05:33):
I mean, celebrity is a terrible thing. It really is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Truthfully, what is success to you? Now?

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Success happens to me. It's in small moments. It's a
great drive home from school pick up where my daughter
just talks to me about what happened in school today.
And maybe she asks me a question too, like how
was your day? Like what was your favorite part about

(01:06:12):
being when you were in Wilmington? Like she just asked
me that today. I was like, oh, what an unusual question. Yes,
I'll tell you a meal, well, made a good conversation
with a friend. I have transferred my expectation of success

(01:06:36):
to mostly those things, because success when it comes to
created things, created works, almost feels like it's never done.
I mean my book I'm a New York Times bestseller,
Time Magazine one hundred of Best of the twenty twenty
four Audible Like, the lauds are innumerable, and I'm amazed,

(01:07:01):
and I still feel like I should be doing something
more can I do? I should do something? I should
be I should be How can I make it better?
How can I tweak it and make it better? I
will never And maybe this is the plight of every
creative person. I don't know. I don't know that I'll
ever just be able to sit back and be like, haha,
I did that and look at it go and look

(01:07:22):
at it succeed, and I'm so happy for success. I'm like, Wow,
this is amazing. But there has to be more, right,
There's got to be something else I can do. It's
an unending ladder if you attach success to projects. So anyway,
I've tried to readjust my expectation of success to just
small daily joys.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
I love that. Okay, last question will two more than
I'll wrap up. What is it like having everyone on
your most intimate journey? Like, what is it like having
the whole world know your journey? Was that nerve wrecking
or was that bring or both?

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
It's like, I don't I don't feel I don't feel
anything about it. Awesome, Yeah, I mean, I guess it's encouraging.
I get I get a lot of notes from people
who've been through similar experiences, a lot of those messages,
and that's super cool. That feels encouraging. But I get,

(01:08:24):
like I said, the idea, like, what do other people
think of me now that I've put this book out?
I don't, uh, I don't know. I don't know how
much I care, right, Maybe maybe that's not. Maybe there's
a part of me that does really care, and like, yeah,

(01:08:44):
I mean I guess I do care. I mean if
it didn't do well, I would be sad, So I
must care. Uh see, you're getting me to ask why
I like it? Why why don't I care? Do I care?
Maybe I do? Yes, I do. I do on some
level for sure, But I guess I just don't spend

(01:09:05):
a lot of time thinking about it. I don't know.
It's a trap. It's a trap spending time thinking about
what other people think of you. I told the story.
I needed to do it. I'm writing a novel now.

Speaker 1 (01:09:16):
I glad to get the story out of you, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
Yeah, that definitely felt like when the opportunity came up,
I was like, yeah, this should be told. This is
a good story that I think will help people, and
I should tell it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
Get it out of your system. All trapped in there, Yeah,
on electical order and one spot like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
This is that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Maybe that's why I feel so much release from it
all that it's not I'm not wandering around wondering how
everybody's thinking or that it's it feels strange that they
know things about me. I guess because of that, because
it's just not it feels freeing like I did it.
So it's out there now, it's out of my blog.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
Now, it's like you released it. It's like you said
it all. You put it all in there. There's no
question marks. It's right there. It's in this book and
now you people can do what they want with it,
but it's not trapped inside of you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Yes, exactly exactly, so in.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
Hired by you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
This is an incredible story.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
And just how did how do we land on the
name Dinner.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
With Vampires Dinner for vampires? Because I, uh yeah, I
narcissists are vampires. They they suck the life energy out
of you. They suck the joy out of you, They
suck everything out of you. And I became the dinner.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
That's subject.

Speaker 2 (01:10:44):
That's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
That's what I always.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Got up with. And it's super open ended. It's just
leave your light. What do you want people to know?
Just some inspiration, just to drop some inspiration. What do
you want people to know?

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Why do I want people to know? I want people
to know that you really really should not wash cast
iron pans with soap.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Talk to my husband about that because I watched them
all the time with soap. But it's like, do you
know how long I've been trying to like prep it
or whatever the thing is.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
When you do, you're curing it. Yes, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
You know? So involved?

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
What'd you say? I do like to cook? Yeah? I do? Yeah,
I don't. I don't know if I have any any
real words of wisdom, ask ask why? And don't wash
your cast iron pan with soap.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
That's amazing, amazing, Befony joy Lynz, thank you so much
for joining me dinner for Vampire. Everyone should read this.
And if this doesn't make it into a movie, I
am literally going to be shocked.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
What a story, what life, what a message.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
Thank you for being so brave to share it. And
congratulations for being so brave to trust your intuition and
eventually free yourself and to go on your own journey.
What a story.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Thank you very much, Thank you. I really appreciate it's
great to have you. Oh and actually, if I can,
I want to tell you about my hold on and
be right there. I just before I started writing this book,
I started a broadsheet newspaper. So it's like the whole

(01:12:30):
it's it's like full fold out, you know, sit like
your grandpa used to do and just read the paper
with your coffee. And it's the whole thing is geared
toward critical thinking, asking the whys, just activating that part
of our brain that is so used to an algorithm
spinning us into whatever direction it wants. And so it's

(01:12:50):
just a tactile thing that you can talk into your
purse and read in the line for coffee or at
breakfast instead of looking at your phone. So it's called
modern Vintage News. And if you want a copy, I'll
send you one. And I just want to share that
with your listeners too. So it's modern Vintage News dot com.
You can get a get a newspaper subscription delivered to
your door.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
Stop it. That's amazing. Okay, I love that so much.
That's so nice. I feel like we're all craving that.
Like we went into such as tech error and everyone's
so disconnected. It's like, can we just get back to
when you read a newspaper sitting in a coffee shop
with people, like having community. That's amazing. Congratulations, you're just
a creative outlet flowing. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
Yeah, it's a Mountain, but thank you. Thanks for having
me on the show. It's just so nice to talk
with you, and I hope I'll get to run into
you in Nashville.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Sometimes we're neighbors. It is so great to meet you,
and I'm just so inspired by your story and your
fearlessness to be who you are. So congrats on everything
and I can't wait to con you to watch your
journey about any joy.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Thank you so much, Talk to you, sir, and bye.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Arent Funtel

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
From Arran Funtel