IAN CRON: Ian's New Book Will Heal You - Seriously! - Get Real with Caroline Hobby

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Carl Lone. She's a queen talking to you song.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
She's getting really not afraid to feel the episode soul.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Just let it flow.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
No one can do we quiet, Cary Lone, it is
time for Caroline.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
I'm going to give you mikes.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
You are okay, Well, I'm starting, and Ian already made
a promise on air, so.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
You can't break it. Oh no, it's documented.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Ian Kron is in the actual house today.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Ian, Hello, I'm so glad to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
I'm so happy you're here.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
I have interviewed you once before on Zoom back in
the day when we were talking about the story of you,
the story of you, and before that was the road
back to you. For all of you guys listening and watching,
I like to say Ian pretty much invented the enneagram.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Oh gosh, that is that is such a gross overstatement. However, however,
I'm flattered. But trust me, I did not.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well, I'll tell you what you did, and this is
what you did. And then you also have the Fix,
which is coming.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Out January twenty eighth.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
So in another so, this will air on Monday and
it'll be coming out that Thursday. Okay, So, Ian, you
have this amazing ability to take systems. It seems like
to me like the Enneagram and the fix is based
on the twelve steps of recovery, but you put them
into a form that breaks it down that we can

(01:48):
read and apply to ourselves so easily. Like I feel
like you have this gift of putting like the Enneagram.
I always knew about the Enneagram, but this book breaks
it down. It explains to you your inneagram, which if
y'all have not done the Enneagram, it is so worthwhile
doing this with your entire family and everyone you're close to,
because you learn, oh my gosh, like my dad's an eight,

(02:10):
I know how to deal with an eight now because
an eight is what is it? What is an eight called?
It's the the challenger. So their whole role is to
go in and fight and conquer and to like make
moves and be intense. And he's always been that way
and that's his strength. But if you don't realize that
that is their personality trait, you might you could, you could,

(02:31):
you could get a little bit, you could be a
little misunderstanding of how they operate. Like my mom's a peacemaker,
she's a number one, and my sister. Oh yeah, she's
a number nine. My sister's number one. She's a perfectionist.
And so I also realized, uh, I think I was
reading No, I was refreshing on the road back to you.
They all act out of anger, that's their their their

(02:51):
triod goes to anger, and I'm a four I'm a
is it the romantic? So I'm just lost in the
middle of feelings. So I've always just been overwhelmed with
my feelings and internalizing everyone and always feeling like I
wasn't enough or worthy. And I've just when you actually
get it in a book and you put it all together,
you're like, oh my god, this is why this all

(03:14):
makes perfect sense. Yeah, and you don't feel crazy, and
you actually can understand all the people that you love
so much so much better. It's just such a tool.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, it's really useful. It gives people a glimpse into
the interior worlds of other people. What are their core motivations,
what are their fears, what are their predictable patterns of acting, thinking,
and feeling. And it also gives each type of growth

(03:42):
path right, because every type has some really beautiful parts
and they also have some shadow parts.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Every part. No one's exempt.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
No one's exempt. Like I have a friend of mine
who likes to say, if you want to, if what
you're looking for is compliments, don't play with the enneagram
like the aneagram, going to like show you in stark clarity,
with in high depth things about you that you will
love and go oh oh, cringe, cringe. So I mean again,

(04:11):
that's what we need. Those we need those kinds of
tools that aid us in examining ourselves and working to
become the best expression of ourselves.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
How did you get We're gonna move to the fix
because of the Fix? I think I love the Twelve Steps.
I was in a band with one of my former
bandmates was in the twelve Step program, and so I
used to go with her to meetings all the time
on the road when I was like in my twenties
and thirties, and I was like, man, I used to
think to myself, like I need this.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yes, and I yes, you do.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
But I didn't necessarily suffer or like feel like I
had a true addiction. Although now that I examined my life,
I was never great with alcohol, But I'm like, I
didn't feel like I had this like blatant like alcohol
or drug issue that would take me to the twelve steps.
But when I would go with her, I was like, man,
I need I need this, And this is what the
fix is. It's saying we all need the twelve steps.

(05:04):
It's actually the formula to freeing ourselves from our own imprisonment,
our past traumas. I love that you say that. You
have some great quotes that I want to talk about
from the books because you just summon up so much.
I'll say one of them, like here you said, we're
blasted into the furnace of life without adequate psychological defenses

(05:25):
to fend off the unavoidable traumas, hurtful messages, and emotional
energy injuries we all sustain in childhood. We then load
these burdens into our little red radio flyer wagons and
unconsciously pull them behind us into adulthood. Unfortunately, no one
tells us how to heal these wounds, so in adulthood
we end up developing chemical addictions, behavioral behavioral addictions, or

(05:48):
recurrent self defeating behaviors to cope with our disease. That
is just it.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
It. Yeah, So part of the premise of the book
is you know, the twelve steps were developed ninety years
ago roughly by a guy named Bill w And up
until that point, people who were alcoholics were just deemed hopeless.
There was no solution to that problem, right, no solution.

(06:17):
And he introduced these steps to you know, his some
fellow alcoholics, and they began to see remarkable transformation, people
being freed from the entanglement of their addictions. Right now,
fast forward ninety years and people think about the twelve Steps. Oh,
it's for those people, right, And isn't it nice those

(06:37):
people have the twelve Steps.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
I don't have to worry about it, and I.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Don't have any addictions. Yeah, And look here's my point.
I mean, I'm speaking as a therapist, right, everybody is
an addict. Like, so, an addiction is any compulsive relationship
that you have with a substance, a behavior, or a
person that has mood altering effects and negative consequences that

(07:05):
you just keep doing despite how it's affecting your well.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Being and you know it's not helping you, but you're like.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Eh, whatever, I'm just going to go one more time.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
Right, So when I talk about addictions, so when you
think about that as a definition, who can't cop to that.
Everybody everyone, right, all right, So when we talk about addictions,
I'm talking about codependency, not just alcoholism, drug addiction, over eating, sports,
betting people, people pleasing perfectionism.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
You know, uh, you wrote a whole list of them.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
I've got about that long.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
That is it was so comical because it's literally every
It's not comical because it's true.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Oh yeah, social media.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, who's not addicted to social technology?

Speaker 3 (07:48):
Right? And what is that? That is? Look, human beings
carry with them a fundamental big ache, right. I love
that that comes out. I mean, it's always with us.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
I felt my big ache yesterday. I called it for
and I was like, I don't know why I need
to ball, but I just do. And I don't have
a particular reason. I just am homesick. Yeah for nothing, Okay,
so beautiful.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
And what ends up happening is we find some external
solution workaholism.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
To fix that pain, to.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Solve the internal problem, right, and then then eventually what
happens is is that our solution causes more problems than
the problem that it was trying to solve.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
That is so true, right, That is so true because
you have the trauma a lot of times. I mean
a lot of times, it's just being a human. Yeah,
even without the pilot on trauma that we get in childhood,
because like you said, we're just born in to a
traumatic existence from the start. No matter how great our
parents stride, they're humans. They are flawed. This life is flawed.

(08:58):
So we are going to be just like pelted with pain.
It's unavoidable. Yeah, and when you're a kid, you don't
know how to process it. So, like you said, you
just pack it on. You add layers, like putting on
more layers of clothes. Then all of a sudden, you
don't even know where your original self is because you're
so layered with trauma and coping mechanisms and trying to
figure out like maybe you achieve and you figure out

(09:18):
successes within the trauma and the coping mechanisms, but you
never really deal with the problem. Right, But what is
the ultimate problem? What is it?

Speaker 4 (09:26):
So?

Speaker 3 (09:26):
I love I'm going to answer that, But I just
love what you just said because oftentimes people will say, oh,
Bob has a drinking problem.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Bob does not have a drinking problem. He has a
life problem, a living problem.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
Right, Well, I would also say Bob has a drinking solution. Mmm,
you know, so and so doesn't have a porn problem.
They have a porn.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Solution, and that porn problem slash solutions started because they're
trying to fill the big ache.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
Right, So, now that's not actually the problem, that's a
symptom of the problem. Yes, right, So when you isn't
it amazing when you say instead of oh, so and
so has a drinking problem or a workaholism problem, it
moves from being kind of shaming and like, you know,
statement sort of finger waggy to being like bringing up

(10:12):
compassion and empathy. Like it's like, oh, this is your
solution two, but there's another problem. How can I help
you refocus your energies? And that's what the steps do, right, Like,
what the Steps do is say, drinking is not my problem.
Living is my problem, right, Learning how to live is
my problem. And this has been a solution to all

(10:33):
the discomfort and the disease that I have in the
world as a result of that problem. And now these
steps are going to help me not just give up
that behavior or that addiction. They're going to help me
learn how to live in a brand new way in
the world. That will be kind of a way of
having more emotional balance what we call emotional sobriety. And

(10:54):
it's like and what it will do then is render
unnecessary your need for whatever that solution used to be.
And that's for everybody.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Oh man. So when you get back to the root
cause of the big ache, when someone realizes it's time
to find their drinking solution, because, like you said, whatever
addiction we're piling on, it's not because I'm dying to
eat a whole cart and a chocolate ice cream in
one sitting. And like you know, I used to have

(11:27):
an eating problem that you need eating disorders, and I
would literally just like eat as much as I could
in one day, and then I would try to go
throw it up, and then when I couldn't throw up,
I would go run on the treadmill to make sure
I would like figure out the calories I ate, yeah,
and then I'd figure out the amount of exercise I
needed to do to x out the calories. And it
was just this whole all consuming like prison in my head.

Speaker 3 (11:49):
Now, I'm not a I'm a therapist, but I'm not
a I'm familiar with like the dynamics of eating disorders.
But I'm so I'm gonna be hesitating when I say this,
But that is a kind of addiction. Yeah, you are
stuck in a behavior, yes, that you know is being
driven by other forces, and they has it has a
mood altering effect and definitely has negative consequence.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
An obsession in the brain.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
An obsession in the brain, right, and what the steps do?
And I know people who like I have a really
good friend of mine who has a serious eating problem,
Like I mean, he was one hundred and fifty pounds overweight,
such a great guy, right, and he got into a
twelve step program oh way, and lost one hundred and
fifty pounds and now the eating wasn't the problem he had.

(12:39):
He worked on the problem, and then that the old
dysfunctional solution just became unnecessary. He doesn't even you know,
I mean, he has to keep his eye on it.
But because you know, once the brain starts to have
that dopamine reward system gets kind of trained that way,
you don't want to tempt fate, right, like to kick

(12:59):
it off again. But I mean his life has been
saved by working steps, and I.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Feel like mine kind of I was able to kick
mine because I got into therapy and did work in
that way. But I finally realized what I was trying
to do was be perfect looking, because I felt so
lost and unworthy on the inside, especially being a four
on the enneagram, right, and then I just never felt
like I was good enough, and I felt like if

(13:26):
people actually got to know me, they would see that
I was just this giant fraud, which you talk about
in the Fix. You felt like the imposter syndrome because
here you are writing all these books and it actually
kind of sent you back into your spiral of relapse, right,
yeah for success.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah, so that was part of it.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
You know I didn't go into all the details in
the book because you know, I only got so much
room here.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
But you share so much personal stuff in here. I
want to applaud you for that. You really share life
in like, yeah, your details.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Well, it's only kept me awake for six months. So
don't are you.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Having any anxiety about this?

Speaker 3 (14:00):
We got to the world, oh yeah, but not not
like I did months ago, you know, Like you know,
when I was writing it, we were in Mexico for
a year and I was just writing the book.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
There and you were just kind of telling your truth.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
I was telling my truth and I was having a
ball writing it. I was just loving writing this book.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
How are you?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Because it well, because it fulfills my mission in life,
which is to introduce people to ideas and experiences that
deepen and improve their lives.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Hence enneagram to fix.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
That's okay, and that songwriting too, like creating an experience
that deepens and improves people's lives.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
So you have a mission statement. I love that.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
I do have one. Yeah, I love that. And so
when I was writing it, you know, I was able
to use humor my story, interweaving it. And You're right,
I do love taking systems that can be very complicated
and difficult for people to grasp and and not dumbing
them down, which I would hate to do, but kind

(15:00):
of laying them out in a way that is palatable, accessible, approachable,
and people go, oh, now, you know, this isn't like
some deep, you know, reflection on the twelve steps that
you know you can find those. This is more like
like me as a friend talking to you and saying,
let me just tell you about my experience with these

(15:20):
steps and how it helped me and how I think
it could help you even if your addiction or your
self defeating behavior that you keep doing over and over
again is something as simple as like being a codependent
people pleaser, right, or it's so it's like I hope
that like a heroin addict on their third day of

(15:41):
treatment reads my book and a soccer mom or soccer
dad sitting at the kitchen table who's like sick and
tired of being sick and tired of some repeating behavior
of theirs, and they're able to go, oh, this is
for me too. Mm hm.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
So you're in Mexico having the time of your life,
and it was just because you're free. Were you not thinking?

Speaker 3 (16:01):
What?

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Were you not thinking about?

Speaker 1 (16:02):
How are you?

Speaker 3 (16:03):
I wasn't thinking about, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna have
to publish this, you know what I mean? Like oh,
and then would it dawned on me, like when I
turned in the manuscript and like, oh, wait a minute,
Like a lot of people are going to read about
this very vulnerable story of mine, and I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Have you ever been this vulnerable in my memoir?

Speaker 3 (16:20):
I had a memoir. My second book was a memoir,
and that was pretty dang vulnerable. But this one a
little bit more so because I first got sober in
nineteen eighty seven, and this book starts with me, you know,
just coming right out and saying, in twenty twenty, I
had a relapse. I ended up in treatment, and so
that takes a lot. There was so much shame about
that for me, and I didn't talk about it publicly.

(16:42):
I'm not one of these people who goes on Instagram
and says, hey, everybody, I had a relapse. I think
that's really distasteful not to mention like emotionally unwise behavior.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
Right.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Why do you say that, because.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Sometimes people do that to actually stoke a following, which
can actually become an addiction.

Speaker 4 (17:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
It's like, this is a very tender moment when that happened,
and I had to work on myself and really do
some work to figure out what happened here, you know.
And and I didn't want this to be leveraged as
an opportunity in the public sphere to like enhance my brand.

(17:25):
I would find that disgusting, Like it's like, no, this
is serious, my life, this is my life and so
and my life is not does not belong to everybody else.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Boundaries good boundaries, right.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
So, but when the time came and I realized, like
I just had this feeling like I got to write
a book about twelve steps because they've had such an
impact on my life and.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
They're probably super fresh because you were going off of
twenty twenty.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yeah, and I'm like, okay, So how do I do
that and not talk about my own life? I can't, like, like,
but but it's not a memoir, so it's not like
all my story and me talking about me. It's just
that is actually just the backdrop against which and which
with I can, you know, talk about the steps and

(18:09):
how they affected my life. So I actually just become
an example of somebody. Yeah, that could be standing in
for anybody.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
You said this too. I love this because this is
so true.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Look at you with all those quotes.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, I mean you're I was going to quote the
whole freaking book, Like, people just need to go read it.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
You can get that on audible.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, go get to fakes on audible. Actually, that would
be great to hear you actually reading it.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
I love reading my own books, oh do you? Yeah?
Because I hate listening to other people's books read by
somebody else. Truth, you know, it's like like vanilla it's like, Okay,
this is a Khaki reading of this person's book. I
want to hear it in their voice. Yeah, even if
it's like nasally and like weird, I want to hear you.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
I want to hear you tell your story. Absolutely, you
said this, prescription drugs rehab. How did this happen to you? Ian?
You say this in the book? So you're you're an
episcopal priest, a therapist, an author who writes books about spirituality,
rewriting your life narrative, the mysteries workings, the mysterious workings
of the personality and the human heart. You previously had

(19:13):
decades of recovery from alcoholism. You have a nice home
and a cool neighborhood in Nashville. You take vacations to Italy.
You have two new cars in the garage. And then
you said, dude, you even own golden doodles. People who
own golden doodles don't take drugs and end up in treatment.
I mean, is that not the truth?

Speaker 1 (19:29):
I mean, you had a.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Picture perfect like life, like this is all you could
dream of. How could you relapse and end up back
in recovery. It makes no sense with all of your
work that you've done and your contributions and your mental
health journey that you've been on. You know, it's like
it's hard to believe, but like you're saying, it can
happen to you.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, but it's not hard to believe.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
It's not you know, like but people want to think
it's hard to believe.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Well, you know that's unfortunate, right, And if this book
doesn't if it doesn't reveal to people that, hey, look,
even if you're you have a great life and things
are going well, you always have stuff in the closet
that's governing your life from the shadows and you don't
know it. The key is is to act responsibly and

(20:14):
do the work right, and you know, look for me,
I had a friend say something the other day when
I was kind of I think whining about or just
my anxiety about being so vulnerable, and he goes, dude,
your mess is the message. And I was like what.

(20:35):
He goes, your mess is the message, and I'm like,
thank you, And I put it on my wall, you know,
like on a little three by five card because it's like, honestly,
as a therapist and as someone who's trying to help people,
if I don't talk about my mess. Then I'm actually
just making them feel worse by presenting myself as someone
who's figured it all out, And why haven't they?

Speaker 2 (20:57):
It's such a relief to know that someone like you
hasn't feared it all out. It gives us freedom to
know we can still be a mess. Yes, And when
are we ever figured out? You?

Speaker 3 (21:06):
Never?

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Never?

Speaker 3 (21:07):
No, Now you can grow and evolve and develop more
self awareness, you know, so that you know you are improving.
Oh look, here's how I see relapsed for me and
addictions in general. I see them as an invitation from
my higher power to enjoy a level of intimacy with

(21:31):
Him that I previously didn't know existed. So I don't
see it as like you're a bad person and this
was a big mistake. It's like, okay, all right, fine,
and this is an invitation from God to enter into
a relationship with him that is so much richer than

(21:51):
the one I had before, because it's just more real, right,
And that's really what I want from me and for
other people.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
So twenty twenty, when you did relapse, how did you
come to terms with? Oh, my god, I've been twenty
years sober, I've done all this work and here I
am back at the bottom. What was that moment like,
because I'm sure people who hit that moment, Yeah, it's terrifying.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, you know it's interesting. There's a book and it's
a wonderful book by a guy named Chris Whyman. He's
a poet and the title of the book is My
Bright Abyss. And I think that's what a bottom is.
In fact, another friend of mine, you know this person
because they're a great songwriter here in Nashville, and she
one time said in a twelve step recovery meeting that

(22:50):
I go to, she said, well, you'll know you've hit
your bottom when you broke your own heart. And that's
sort of what happened, right. I reached that place on
my journey where I've I've broke my own heart, and
just like what it sounds, right, it's it's sadness, it's shame,

(23:12):
it's embarrassment, it's humiliation.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
But that's but then you have choices.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah, but here's the thing. When you're able to admit powerlessness,
like when you reach that moment when you say I'm
out of AMMO, Right, all my best ideas got me here, Okay,
when you hit that moment then suddenly this weight falls
off your shoulders and you hear this voice in your

(23:40):
head saying, okay, cool, now I have you, and you
realize that love is carrying you, and then you're able
to go to do the next right thing. And that
for me meant going to treatment, going back to twelve
step recovery meetings, getting a sponsor, doing all the work.
But that can happen for you don't have to be

(24:01):
on the severe end of the addiction continuum. Like you
could just be a really bad workaholic, which by the way,
is have a very bad addiction. Yeah, and you could
just reach that point where you're like, I can't stop
using work as a way to bolster my self esteem,
to cover over all of my own insecurities, escape escape

(24:22):
from my feelings right and dealing having to deal with
relationships I don't know how to deal with, so I'm
always putting them off to go back to work.

Speaker 4 (24:30):
Right.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
So true, blah blah blah, which by the way, has
mood altering effects and negative consequences because you know, my
wife has now left me. My kids are adults, but
they're mad because they never saw me at home when
I was I was always on the phone on the
side of the soccer game, working away, you know what
I mean. Yes, And it's like, you know this can
you can reach your bottom with that and use these

(24:52):
steps to get better. So it's not again, I just
want to make it clear, the book is not just
for people with who are on the severe. You're into
the spectrum alcoholics, drug addicts, gambling addicts. You know, you
don't have to have lost You don't need to lose
your car, your house, your marriage, your kids as a
result of stuff. You can decide to pull your shue at.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
A higher altitude and not hit the bottom.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
Not hit the bottom and just do the work.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
And I just think it's so great, and I want
to kind of go through the steps just so people
know what they are, because I think it's important to
like hear them. But I want to kind of talk
about one thing that stood out to me that I
have struggled with so much, and that is Christianity. Because
you have this part in your book where you realized
where you were like drinking in high school. You came

(25:42):
from a family of big drinkers. Oh lord, like, what
did you say? Here's your quote on this, So you
have your quotes. You say, I hail from a long
line of hard drinking, barroom brawling Irish Catholics. You believe
that Budweiser, marble reds and making regular visits to the
er for soldiers was equated to living your best life.
This is how I describe my family to people who
ask him, I'm upbringing. Like you had your first sip

(26:05):
of alcohol at eight, and you were drunk in the
eighth grade, and the first time you got drunk you
went to the er for alcohol poisoning.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
I mean, like you came in hard. You're like, I'm
doing this.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Addictions are so complicated, right, because they are I think
arguably genetic and biological. They are social, they are psychological, right,
They are based on They are about trauma. They are
about it's not people like to say it's because of X,
and it's like, no, that's way too simple. Like what
causes an addiction to flower in a person's life is

(26:39):
super complicated. But for sure I was set up early
in life to like, just based on the examples of
the adults around me, right to go, oh, when you
don't feel good, here's the solution, Like why, I mean,
it's like of course I would think that way. Yeah,
I know, and in the beginning.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
It works, that's the problem, and it probably works really well.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Oh and it's fun, it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Well you said this too about you with your drinking.
I mean, you're you. I have so many quotes because
this is crack gosh, there's a second. I can't stop.
And the book was so good, you said one time, Okay,
there were nights when I could go out and drink
a few beers and go home. And other times I'd
go to a bar in Connecticut and wake up the

(27:26):
next morning in a strip mall parking lot in Foster,
Rhode Island. Overtime, my drinking continued to downward spiral, but
like you never knew what was gonna happen. Sometimes you'd wait,
and how are you doing your homework in a bar?
Like where your parents just let me roam?

Speaker 3 (27:39):
I had a fair childhood.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
I mean you're like, you're like doing your homework at
a bar when you're a teenager? Yeah, were your parents
like word where you were?

Speaker 3 (27:48):
They're like go, no, no, And plus who was I
wasn't exactly advertising that right?

Speaker 2 (27:54):
So but how did you end up in that bar
and come home? Drunk, and nobody notice.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Well, because my dad was an alcohol he was, yeah,
and my mom was traveling a lot at that particular time,
you know, and I, you know, honestly, like a lot
of times I didn't come home because my dad was
a mess.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
So he wasn't checking in on you because he was
kind of checked out.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
He was way checked out. But but I would, you know,
I was just trying to function, you know.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
And you're on your own, okay, And alcohol was the
source that showed you the comfort in part at that.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Time that got worse and worse and worse over the years,
you know.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
But then you said, this is the thing that like
I think is so fascinating and interesting and a lot
of a struggle with you found Christianity, and then you
felt like you had a split life because like you
aligned with Christianity and God like it connected with you.
But now here you are in this struggle, and I
feel like so many of us have this where it's
like I am showing up to church and my youth

(28:56):
group and with all my faithful friends and I believe
this and I feel but then I'm also oh yeah,
going and drinking at the bars and doing all this
stuff and you and you started feeling crazy.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Yeah, it's you know, addicts of all kinds are really
great at compartmentalizing, and we see this all the time. Right.
So example, you're a guy and you're you know, you
are a so called Christian, right and maybe very well.
So I mean, I'm not saying that you're not right,
and yet you have this secret porn life. You know,
you're sneaking downstairs at one o'clock in the morning when

(29:29):
the rest of the family is sleeping and you're watching porn, right,
and you have compartmentalized your life. In fact, you're going
to church and arguing to the elders that they need
to do a sermon series against porn.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Because you're you're screaming inside that you're dealing with this.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
Uh. Or it's just like you're not making the connection. Brother,
you don't think, No, you.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Don't think it's a subconscious like cry out unconscious unconscious.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
It's definitely unconscious, but it's not usually conscious, you know. YEA,
Like when I hear somebody that going off on something
they real hard and they can't stop talking about how
bad this is, I'm like, oh.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Is that a direct to what they're dealing with.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
Inside often and I'm often like.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Okay, why are we so angry about that?

Speaker 3 (30:13):
It's like I think he doth protesteth too much?

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Hmm, that's interesting, right, Why are you so fired up
about that? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (30:21):
Why are we so fired up about that? And so,
you know, look, it's just the human condition. I never
when I meet any kind of addict, and hopefully any
kind of person, you know, I just try and think
to myself, I know that this person is struggling privately
with something in their life that's really, really, really hard,
and therefore I need to, to the best of my abilities,

(30:46):
love them and be compassionate toward them, even when they're
acting out of their own pain in ways that are
uncomfortable for me. You know, are painful for me. Doesn't
give him a pass to go too far in that.
But I can still address whatever's happening with more compassion,
you know, because I've been there.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
So the faith aspect, though, because I feel like so
many of us struggle with that trying knowing that we
feel God in our heart and like are showing up
and like wanting to be a part of this faithful community,
but then feeling so judged you said a part in
this book too, you have felt more at peace and
more yourself in a basement with other people in recovery

(31:28):
talking about God than you ever did in like the
pews of church. I'm like paraphrasing that, but like pretty
much like because when you're in these meetings and recovery,
you don't have to lie or put on a front.
You just are all of it, good about and ugly,
which is what God calls us to be.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
And to be clear, this is not a Christian book
per se. Like I am very upfront about my own
sort of faith convictions. But you know, I quote Buddhists.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, you talk about Buddha a lot.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Yeah, and so but you know, God, Frank, I've learned
a lot from the Buddha, right like, and but I
mean I'm not a Buddhist, but I'm there's stuff to learn,
there's stuff to learn, right and and so I just
really feel like, yeah, unfortunately people don't experience the level
of grace, acceptance, welcome, you know, compassion that they and

(32:22):
they also don't experience oftentimes the miracles I see in
those meetings, Like if people could see what's going on
in their ding dang basement of their church. They'd be
like they would go to the pastor. They would go
to the pastor and go, how come all that stuff's
happening in the basement and it's not happening up here?

Speaker 4 (32:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (32:39):
Right, And then they could have a little sit about
and talk about what is it about us that is
preventing that which.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Leads us to this book? Yes, so tell me about that.
What is about those meetings in the basement of the
church that is hitting so directly to the soul and
heat actually having transformative healing and not that you can't
in church, but like, what is it that's happening down
there that might not be happening upstairs.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Well, first of all, they are generally and you know,
I don't want to romanticize meetings and say every single
one of them is awesome, And you know, it's like, no,
I've been in some crappy meetings before, you know, like
where they're a little dysfunctional. That's pretty rare, I will
be honest, but I have been to those types of meetings.
You know. I think it's number one that all of

(33:26):
us have a shared experience of having gotten to the
end of our own resources and we've all done some
pretty dumb stuff, and so there's a kind of warmth
and acceptance, and you know, it's weird, Like you know,
what newcomers to those meetings often say is, like the
first thing that I noticed was how much laughter there

(33:47):
is here, Like, like I go to meetings all time
where it's can be hilarious.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Because you laugh about what you did. Probably right, well.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
There's some of that. I mean, not in a way that's.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Unhealthy, right, But humor is healing.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, I mean humor derives from the same word that
humility does. Yeah, And so humility is a really important
spiritual virtue, right, And and so you know, I think
there's a kind of welcome, a spirit of welcome of
everybody can be included here. It doesn't matter if you're

(34:22):
what your race is, what your sexual preference are, what
your you know what I mean, it doesn't matter anything.
We just want to help you get get and stay sober.
And we also we also want to help you find
a relationship with a higher power that will take care
of the big ache, you know, and will help you
to live without having to rely on external solutions to

(34:45):
your internal problem. Right. And so I don't think sometimes
people in the sanctuaries don't experience a kind of desperation
about their own spiritual condition. Now I think they should
experience it a little bit more than they do. But
of course, you know, for a lot of them, they

(35:06):
just haven't reached a point, they haven't gotten to the
end of themselves. You know. It's interesting again, I don't
want to be all a Christian here, but you know,
in the in the Sermon on the Mount, and one
translation of it is Jesus says, blessed are those at
the end of their ropes?

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Why? Yes, because all you got left is God or
destruct dying.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, And so actually, I mean that puts some people
in a dilemma, right, because you're.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Either gonna it's either going to blow up and you're
gonna go down and think the ship is going to
sink and you're never gonna heal right, which is tragic,
or you kind of have two choices, right, Yes.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
And for some people in the beginning that's really hard
because it's like, oh, great, I have two choices, death
or God, and I don't believe in God, So what
am I going to do?

Speaker 4 (35:53):
Right?

Speaker 3 (35:53):
And we just say keep coming, it'll come to you.
Just keep coming now, you know, I just want to
make sure sure. Let's say you're a a codependent woman
and you are in a relationship with somebody and you've
seen this, right, people get in relationships with really dysfunctional people.
They get hurt over and over and over and over again,

(36:17):
and they keep going back, they keep going back to
the relationship. Well, this is I'm just kind of describing
sort of codependent relationships, right, And there may be many
reasons why. But maybe because they have begun to see
that other person as the soul, the only person who

(36:39):
can you know, hold up their self esteem, give them safety,
you know whatever. There's a lot of reasons people can
do this, right, And or they're just addicted to love
in a way that's change and yeah, right, and that
there they will be nobody without this other person, right,

(36:59):
And so they put up with people having affairs, people drinking,
people doing all kinds of crazy stuff, right, And they
leave and they come back, they leave, and they come back,
they leave, or the other person leaves and they take
them back, or they leave and they come back and
they take them back, you know, and it's like that's
an addiction, right, And there are actually twelve step programs
for people like that called codependence anonymous or alan on,

(37:20):
you know, things like that. And it's like, the twelve
steps are for people who I like to say, are
just sick and tired of being sick and tired of
those stupid addictions or the same repeating self destructive patterns
of behavior that though they don't serve them at all anymore,

(37:42):
they keep they can't get themselves out of it. Yeah, right,
and you know the steps say you can, and here's how.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
So let's kind of go through the steps because can
we just like mention them, you go into detail with
each one. But I think it's really important just for
people to hear what they are. So the first step
would be.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
That's the table of contents. So you don't want to do.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
That, Okay, what do we want to do?

Speaker 3 (38:07):
That would just be uh oh, though they are, oh,
I don't even know what the table of contents ody.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
And let me tell you, let me tell you about
your book. Thanks so much. So we have step one.
We admitted we were powerless over blank and that our
lives have become unmanageable.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Yeah, that's the that is the only step. You have
to get one hundred percent right, Okay, okay, because the
rest of the steps will make no sense unless you
are willing to admit. Like I said earlier, I'm out
of AMMO, I'm powerless. I tried everything in my power
to make this pattern go away, or this relationship with
a person, a substance or a behavior goal away, and

(38:44):
I have failed. So I need help. It's the and
really it's like the it's kind of like just the
honesty step, right, It's like just getting real, like I'm done.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
You think that's the hardest step for people.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Everybody has a hard one, you know, that they really
struggle with. But it's the it's kind of it's like
the entrance ticket. Yeah, right. And when you hear unmanagement,
people go like, well, I've never lost my car, I've
never gotten a dui. I've never like, I still have
my house and my big my big four O one
K and my you know, in my nice gated community,
and I'm doing great. It's like, okay, Well, unmanageability can

(39:20):
show up in a lot of other ways. Besides those.
It can show up as crippling anxiety, internal feeling of
like just inner dullness, a feeling of being lost, of
being confused. You may look great on the outside, but
emotionally and spiritually your life's unmanageable now, right, And I'm
was that your experience, like like, you know, hey, I've

(39:42):
got this eating disorder, but on the outside, I probably
look great to everybody.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Oh yeah, right. I had a moment where I was like,
I don't care if I gain seventy pounds. I cannot
do this anymore. And I was like went to therapy.
I was like, I have to get off this hamster
will And I was turning thirty, I got addicted to
diet pills. I was blamic, I was like exercise, interacting
all the things, nothing like horrible, Like honestly, it wasn't

(40:08):
like I was like killing myself with it, Like I
was not like next level, but it was just always
something right, always a fix for it. And then finally
I was like, I'm not going to enter a new
decade with my same problems in the twenties, and I
hit therapy and that's when I worked on it. And
it took a long time, and like you said, every
now and then, for in my thirties, it would creep

(40:28):
back up a little bit, sure, and I'd have a
little bit of a ooh, I could I know how
to do this real fast. I know how to quick
fix this real fast. Let me just do my old
techniques because they always work.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, so the old ideas are always waiting.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Oh and then when you get to like, you know,
after I had like a baby too, I was like,
let me just like and I had extra wait till
it was like I could, I could probably just quick
fix some of this real fast. But then you have
to like check yourself, like you're talking about your friend.
You always have to like stay check yourself and be
like okay, yeah, don't go back.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Yeah, don't go back. Yeah. So that's step one. I mean,
there's so these the steps sound really simple, and they are.
On one level. They're not easy, but they're simple, and

(41:16):
when you get into them, you realize, oh, there's so
much underneath each of these steps that we don't have
time to go into. But let's keep going.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Okay, it's in the step two. Came to believe that
a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
Yeah, so I always laugh, I say, you know, you've
now hit bottom. You've admitted that you're out of AMMO
and now now the next step is, oh, and guess what,
You're insane. And I'm always like, I'm always like, you know, awesome, awesome,
thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Now I'm insane on top of it.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
I'm so glad. I'm oh.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
And by the way, now you're telling me I have
to believe in God and I'm an atheist, right, Like,
I mean, it's like.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
What, these are some hard pills the swallow For some people.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
It wasn't for me because I was already a person
of faith, so it didn't really that didn't that part, right,
But but yeah, okay, so let's think about this way.
The word sanity derives from a Latin word sanus, which
just means wholeness or health. So it's like, you know,
I just came to believe in that there's a power
of God whatever whatever you want to call it, that

(42:22):
can restore me to health and sanity, wholeness, I like wholeness, right,
And you know, for some people this is not a
huge step, but for some it's a big step because
they they're angry at God, they're resentful toward God, they
don't believe in God or whatever reason, right, And so
the cool thing about the Steps is it doesn't say, oh,
it has to be Jesus, or it has to be Buddha,

(42:43):
or it has to be the gods of Hinduism, or
it has to be this. Right, It's like, no, you
get to pick.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
That's what's so great about the Steps is there's not
these rules. It's you guiding yourself. Yeah. Yeah, well actually
the word rules, no, not really steps not rules.

Speaker 3 (42:57):
Actually the word that is used in meetings and in
the literature of the twelve Steps is these are suggestions.
Here are the steps we took that we suggest as
a as a path. Right, So you never get a
sense in meetings or in your work with it that
these are rules and you've got to follow them. It's so.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
It's very invitational, very invitational. You move at your own pace.

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yeah, And it's about especially steps two through twelve. Right,
our mindset is not about perfection. In fact, there's a
line in our book right that says, you know, it's
all about progress, not perfection. So we're just making progress
on each of these. And the cool thing about that
particular step is it doesn't say, you know, we've come

(43:43):
to believe that there's a It's like we came to believe.
You don't have to get this all right day one.
You don't have to believe one hundred percent day one.
All you have to do is be willing. So like
when someone says to me, I don't believe in God,
and if there is one, I hate them, I go, fine,
would you be willing? Could you crack the door just
a little bit and be open to the possibility that

(44:05):
there is a power greater than you that loves you
and wants the best for you? Well, I can try,
And I'll say, why don't you just try prayer? Oh,
I couldn't possibly prayer? Pray And I'm like, okay, let
me make this simple for you. Here's a really short prayer.
I'd want you just to start saying it every morning,
you know, when you get up out of bed, and
they're like, okay, And in the beginning they're like seeing
their prayer in the morning. And I'm just telling you

(44:27):
I've seen this a million times. You know what happens
is people just open the door to faith a little
bit and then slowly they start to go, oh, I'm
actually starting a sense that there is someone out there
that care, you know what I mean, And it's like
just be willing to believe. And if I even had
a sponsor many years ago say to me, Okay, maybe

(44:49):
you don't believe, but can you believe that I believe?
And I went, oh, I can do that. He goes, okay,
let's just start with that. Just believe that I believe. Okay,
And to him it was like just a way getting
me to be willing. And then this was of course
many years ago when that happened. But yeah, I love.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
That Step two okay. Step three made a decision to
turn our will and our lives over to the care
of God as we understood him. So you really have
to get comfortable step two before you go to step three.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
You have to get yeah, and you have to get
comfortable with three to go to four.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
You have to be fully embodied in this previous step
before you move.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
On, yes, or reasonably far along right, Like you're not
going to get it perfect, but you're going to throw
yourself into do the best the best that you can. Right,
So you know in three, this is the big moment.
This is the moment you say, look at look at
steps one, two, three, this way I can't he she
it can, meaning God higher power. Step three is I

(45:45):
think I'll let him, so I can't he can. I
think I'll let him. And once you get that those
three steps worked out, then you can move on to
the next phase.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Okay, so that would be step four. Ooh ooh, this
one's is this a tough one? Made a searching and
fearless moral inventory of ourselves? Well, step forward? Step five
admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being
the exact nature of our wrong So step forward. Do
you have to like start at the beginning and go

(46:17):
through everything you can absolutely remember of wrongdoings that you've done, so, yes,
well tell me what that's important to.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
Well, well, actually, and step forward. What you do is a
couple of inventories, right and meaning writing work, journaling work. Right,
So it would be something like you start with making
a resentment inventory. Who are all the people you're resentful for?

Speaker 2 (46:35):
And I want to know why this is important?

Speaker 4 (46:37):
To all?

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Right?

Speaker 3 (46:37):
This is yeah, okay, so except.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Forth very they're all crucial, but to me, this one
like perks me up, all.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Right, So this is just good self examination, ye work.
So you're like, I'm just going to write down the
names of everybody I hold a grudge against or I'm
resentful for because for a lot of addicts and of
all kinds, that is part of the big ache. They're
carrying a lot of anger and resentment. Yeah, okay, and
it's un process it's unacknowledged. Right. So in that inventory

(47:03):
you write down who am I mad at? What? The
next column why am I mad at him? Step, The
next column would be how did it affect me? Then
the next column is what was my part?

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Because we haven't thought we had a partner?

Speaker 3 (47:19):
No, we didn't. And really, like when a resentment or
a relationship breaks, there's always some piece of it that's ours, always, always.
And now someone might say, and I actually talk about
this in the book, when I was young, I had
an experience of sexual abuse. I cannot say any good

(47:40):
faith this was my partner, that is true.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
How do you how do you do like child abuse
and things like that?

Speaker 3 (47:46):
Well, I, after some reflection, was able to say, yeah,
that's true. I had no part in that. However, in
the years following that, I used that as a I
used the victim card a lot and said, well, of
course I do this or that because of this, And
it's like.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
I guess you didn't know how to process it as a.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
Child, Yeah, but you still got to name it, yeah, right,
like like what in adulthood Like okay, but I've been
using it as a victim card for twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Okay. So like when you're a child and it happens,
you have no part, but you're saying as when you
become an adult and you you now have to take
responsibility for how you have yes and how that has
played into the resentment.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
Okay, right, and so you go through all those names
and that now that step is going to become important
in steps eight and nine, and that it makes sense
in a second, right, but in that in the step four,
we also do a fear inventory, right, we do a
sexual conduct inventory.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Well, we just look at, you know, in our histories
because in our sexuality. You we know that when we
that sexuality is beautiful, but when it's poorly stewarded, that
it causes a lot of pain.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Right, And it's so easily to poorly steward.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
Sexuality, yes, And so you know, we just always include
that because there's usually a lot of resentment around relationships,
romantic relationships, and you know, sometimes we've just acted irresponsibly
with people who were not romantically involved in you know,
and it's like got to own it.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
So when you're doing for making a fearless and moral
inventory of ourselves, that's where you're checking resentments that you
have and then things that you have also done.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Yeah, you're just looking at it, all of it.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, and that's a lot to look at well.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
But also you're looking at what were you doing during
active addiction? Okay, I'm a workaholic. What did I do?
I ignored my children, or I did not spend enough time
with them, or I kept telling them I do all
this work for you, when actually it wasn't for them.
I lied. It was really to bolster my self esteem
and to buy expensive things to make me look great

(49:57):
because I didn't feel great about myself, you know what
I mean. Like, you're just owning your stuff. And it
doesn't have to be shaming and depressing. Though you may
have lots of feelings of regret or whatever, it doesn't
have to be that. It's just like an inventory. It's
like going to the grocery store. If you own a
grocery store, you go through the tomatoes once a week
and you're like, oh, this is too rotten to keep boom,

(50:19):
throw it out. Oh that's good, keep it. And also
part of the inventory process is also laying out your assets,
your gifts. Yeah, so it's like here, here's what needs
to go, here's what needs to stay right.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
And here do I need to clean up exactly?

Speaker 3 (50:33):
Then you go to step five, which is admitted to God,
to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Is this where you have to go apologize to people?

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Nope, not yet. This is when you sit with your
sponsor or somebody else and you actually go through everything
in your fourth step you tell so.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Is that freedom though, it's probably the beginning, but yeah, freedom.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Oh yeah. For some people this is a terrifying step,
but it's really important you will survive well.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
And it is also like you're getting that poison out of
your body.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
Yeah, noly that. But your sponsor is going to say
stuff to you, like or whoever you share with is like,
oh you did that too, I did that too, you know,
or I did it worse than you. Yeah right, Oh
you think you lied?

Speaker 4 (51:11):
You know.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
It's like and you suddenly realize, oh, I'm not the
crappy person I thought I was.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
That's why these steps are so important, because we're actually
just being so raw and real and we all have
these things were shameful of in this inventory.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Yeah, and you know, every great religious tradition has this
step as part of its teaching.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
I love that you're bringing this to all the people,
not just people who have this active addiction that can
be pinpointed.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Oh listen, everybody should do this.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Everyone needs to do this. That's why you wrote this book.
My sponsor, uh is cleaning out your pipes.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Yes, my sponsor is so great. He's so funny too,
and he says to me all the time, he goes, well,
you know, Ian, not everybody needs to know everything about you,
but somebody does. If you have one or two people
in your life, just one who knows everything about every
dumb or hurtful thing you've done and could look you

(52:04):
in the eye the whole time, go keep going and like,
just listen. And it is a People will oftentimes say
that they actually had such a profound spiritual experience that
when that step was over, they walked out an entirely different.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Human light as a feather.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
I bet yep.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Oh, okay, So step six we are entirely ready because
now we've done our inventory. So you go through the steps,
you admit that you're powerless, you find God, you make
a decision to turn your life to God. And now
we're going through our inventory. We're writing it down, claiming everything.
Now we are telling it to someone, and now we've

(52:44):
cleaned ourselves out like we are clean vessel now to
our best of our ability. And so step six, we
are entirely ready to have God remove all these defects
of character.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Yeah, so when you do those inventories, you're going to realize, Oh,
guess what, I'm selfish. Oh, I'm narcissistic sometimes right, Oh
guess what I'm a liar. Oh guess what I still
I stole stuff? Right, or I'm you know whatever, or
or and it just depending on what your thing is. Right,

(53:15):
And you then make a list of these character defects
that you've unearthed, and your sponsor or whoever the book
would help you. As you know, there's a workbook that
comes with us and heck or actually the workbook is
one hundred and twenty pages. It goes through all the steps.
It shows people how to do this right, like step
by step, baby, step by baby step right, and so

(53:38):
you know at this point you've identified Okay, now, so
here they are, like, here are my problems, right, and
then you're going to go on to the.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Next step, step seven, humbly ask God to remove our shortcomings.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
Right. So, here's the problem most people have. Most people,
when they're trying to most people are always trying to
fix themselves. Yeah, right, that's their solution. Their solution is
I'm going to fix myself. Right. Well, how's that going? Right?
You can make some improvements, but I'm just telling you
you can't fix yourself right now. What happens then is

(54:14):
you're actually doing what I call reformation, which is like,
I'm trying to reform myself. But the message of the
steps is reformation doesn't work. Right. What will work is transformation, right.
And so the way transformation works is you actually we
make it. It's so simple. We make it hard. You

(54:36):
just have to go to your higher power and say,
I have all these character defects or defenses, and I've
tried everything in my power to get rid of the
fact that I have these inclinations that do these really
bad things. Are not bad, but you know what I mean,
like unhealthy, Yeah, unskillful, unhelpful, dysfunctional, whatever? Can you take

(54:56):
these from me? And I've worked step six and seven.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Have you noticed that God will take them?

Speaker 3 (55:03):
Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (55:04):
You just ask him to because I actually I feel
like I struggle with this because I've done so much
work on myself that I'm like I like you said,
but I still come back to like me needing to
do the work and the fixation.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
So there's always this kind of partnership between you and
whatever your spiritual power is, right, Like, yes, you, I
just like to say, look, give God the line share
of the work here.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
Right.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
So let's say I have a problem with stretching the
truth in order to cover my tracks, okay all the time?

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Okay, right, that's a character defect, Okay.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
Right, because honesty is a big principle of the program,
like be ruthlessly honest. And so I say, look, I've
tried to stop doing this, but it's almost reflexive. It's
like I can't stop doing it when the opportunity comes, right,
And I've had many character defects like that been literally
just taken away from me because you.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Just ask God. Still is the truth?

Speaker 3 (55:58):
Also, because so many things have happened in the previous
steps that have helped me to let go. I don't
I actually don't even need those things anymore. Does that
make sense?

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Yeah, because you don't have the whole pile up of
like a clogged pipe where it's all just on top
of each other. You've cleaned it. So it's like, why
why am I just trying to like keep this yes
here when it's right not necessary.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
It's not necessary now, right, but there's always some hang ons?

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Yeah right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
And and by the way, you know, through the course
of a day, I work the steps all the time. Right,
just thinking about it, it's like, oh, I just stretched
the truth right there? What am I gonna do? It's like, well,
part of it is I'm going to say, you know, ope,
there it is again. Okay, God, just you know, can
you please remove this shortcoming?

Speaker 2 (56:43):
So I'm like, this allows you to be so aware
though when you do it.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Yeah, you're gonna get You're gonna get real aware.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
So then immediately when you did it probably made you
feel something. You notice it and you're like, ooh, I've
been living so clean and in my light and in
my alignment, but now that made me feel weird. So
then you examine it quickly.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
Yes, And people in meetings said that all the time
this I used to do this stuff routinely, and now
when it happens, yeah, they go like, oh, what's that?
You know? And by the way, in step ten, when
we get to it right, it actually is a step
that's going to help you continually work with those character defects.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
You know.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
It says, you know, continue to take personal inventory and
that can be just in your head. Right. And when
we were wrong, promptly admitted it. So I have a
story in the book. Right, there's a do you know
where Osha is? The coffee shop down on It's down
off Music Row, all right, So it's my favorite coffee
shop and every morning I have a cortato.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
You go there every day?

Speaker 3 (57:41):
I used to, well, the in the warm months, I do,
because it's out kind of an outdoor spotay and h.
So I was going there for coffee one day and
I was rushed on a deadline. My knee hurt from running.
It was about one hundred degrees outside. My clothes are
shellacked to my body, you know what I mean. I'm like,

(58:01):
and I get there and there's a long line. You're like, create, oh, right,
and I haven't had my corteto yet.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Right now, you're kind of pissed.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
I'm really pissy. I'm so in the book I say
I'm in a mood, right, like I am not doing well.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
So you're not going on.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
I'm looking at the line. There's never this long line, right, yeah.
And then I realized they have a new barista, and
she's really cheerful, and she's having long conversations with every customer.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
She's to get a little bit more efficient here from
wrap up from New York.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Okay, this is not working for me. Okay in New York,
they go, here's your coffee next, you know, keep the
line moving, and and you know, she's like, well, honey, pie,
tell me about where you're from.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
You're like, you need to shut your trap, lady.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Oh my god, got to get going.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
This is killing me. So I finally get up to
the counter. I'm going to tell you about a moment
that I didn't you better have it then in the
worst of ways. So she goes like this, she goes, well, honey,
what would you like? And I don't like being called
honey by twenty one year old. So that was the
first thing that didn't work well. And then she goes, you'll, honey,
what would you like? I said, I'd like a cortado
and she holds up these two varieties of milk, right,

(59:07):
and she goes, how would you like it? And I went,
I would like it today.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
How did it feel to let her know? How?

Speaker 2 (59:16):
You know? Boy?

Speaker 3 (59:17):
Oh boy, this was not this was not me and
my best you know character defect.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Like this, you know.

Speaker 3 (59:23):
And so she got this really bad look and then
she made my cortato and she handed it back to
me and she goes, have a nice day, jackass. Oh
we had a moment. We had a moment.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
Stop it.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
So I go storming off right and I'm walking down
the street.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Have a nice day, jackass.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Jackass?

Speaker 2 (59:38):
This is that word.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
She's cheerful. But she gave it to you, you gave
it back.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
Yeah, oh honey, honey has a dark side. So anyway,
so I get in the car and I'm driving and
I call my sponsor and I'm like, can you believe
she did that? And he's like, maybe you should go
back and make an amends. And I'm like what He's like, well,
continue to take personally.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
Well, you need to fly your sponsor because you were
feeling things.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Yeah, and he's like, continue to take personal inventory. And
when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
But you're like, I wasn't wrong, she was taken too long.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Well, come on, I was. I had some piece of
this right all right?

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
There were you able to realize maybe you had a
little bit?

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
So I turned the dank car around, stop it, I
go back. Now you did it? I did, and now
the line is shorter.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
She's happy to see you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
I'm sure there's like one percent. And I come up
and she sees me coming up to the window and
she I said, hey, I was here half an hour ago,
and I was a real ass and jackass jack ass
to be specific, and I just want you to know
I'm really sorry, and how can I make it up
to you? And she just she puddled like she got
real teary, and she came flying out of the little

(01:00:42):
place and she hugged me, and she's like, oh my gosh,
I've been thinking about you for the last half an
hour because I was a jerk too, and I had
an argument with my boyfriend this morning and I took
it all out on you too, and I'm really sorry.
And then I come to find out. You know, we're
having a moment, right, We're okay. So now me and Felicity,
that's her name, Me and Felicity. We're having a moment, right.

(01:01:03):
And I learned she was a songwriter, she just moved
to town from Colorado. Her boyfriend is a couch potato,
she has a hairless cat. I mean, I'm learning all
kinds of stuff about her. And like we just and
I got a free cortato, second quartato, and I'm like,
I call my sponsor back. I was like, I have
a new best friend. Their name is Felicity. And it's

(01:01:24):
like that's an example of how you work the program
every day. Like that's just how we should live our lives.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
And the power of just like instead of just staying
in that anger field, because there's plenty of reasons you
were right to be upset. She well, you're right to
be mythed because you need to keep me lying going
everywhere has places to be. But also she was just
trying to make her job happy and spreadshere. So really
what you're saying is we all are humans. We all

(01:01:49):
have feelings that overtake us. We all act out in
ways that we are regretful and hurtful. But if we
just go back around and actually approach the person with
love in our hearts and forgiveness, look at what happens now.
You and her had the best day. Oh yeah, because
y'all could have had because that would have continued on
throughout your day and you would have had a back.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
And sadly she doesn't work there anymore, because I swear
I'd be having free cortados for a year because we've
like loved on each other for like twenty minutes, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
And and you but like you change the energy of
your day, Yes, and the ripple effect of what was
going to happen next because you went back and made amends. Yes,
because you took inventory, because you worked the steps and
that's why you're saying we need to do these.

Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
And then again in the car and I go, God,
you know what, sometimes I can be a real entitled
jerk jackass okay, And I was acting like an entitled
snot and like a little cry baby and can you
just take lift that character defect from me?

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
So that's when you asked God to take it away?

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
Yeah, Like I'm working on these steps all day, like
they're kind of always like I'm not like obsessed with it,
but they're kind of in the background of my mind
all the time. And my sponsor likes to say, you know,
when you've worked them long enough, all the numbers fall
away and then you're just kind of in the ecosystem
of that way of living and your lifestyle. It's your
lifestyle now. You don't have to think about it. You're

(01:03:07):
just living it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
You just kind of know where you are in the process.
That's a great story, you know. I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
I got more.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Oh man, y'all got to get this book to because
they're in here. Okay, Step ten, No, step nine, we
already did that. Make direct amends to people whenever possible,
except when to do so would injure them. Yes, wait
do we do step eight? Make a list? So step
eight make a list of all persons we have harmed
and became willing to make amends to them all.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
I love that step. It's really simple. Just make a
list of all the people you've harmed in your life.
And if you're having trouble figuring out who that is,
go back to step four and look at all the
people you're resentful at in all the ways that you
participated than that, and many of those people are going
to end up on that list.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Even though you feel like they are the ones who
caused the problems. That's not Yeah, you have your part.
You have to own up to your part.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
Doesn't matter what they did. All you have to do
is own up to your point. You know, we call
that cleaning your side of the street. You don't have
to clean up their side. You don't have to like
bring up their mistakes when you have these conversations with them.
In fact, don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Oh and this is never do this also being very
mature and just being wise. Is this about you, not
about them exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
Now, if they come back at you and say, you know,
I did this and that, which often happens in these conversations,
people will say, yeah, yeah you did do that, but
I did this right. A lot of times people be
still really pissed and they're not a very self aware person,
and they will yeah, you were one hundred percent wrong,
and you're just going to have to listen to them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
And you can't like try to fend yourself because all
you're doing is making amends for what you did.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
It's this level of like, yeah, like next level maturity
that you're like, it's like a godly maturity because you're like,
because you could just fire off of them all things
AI did wrong and it's right, they're available to let
them have it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
That's in amends. That's gone sideways. If that, if you
do that, you've gone sideways. So and by the way,
why are we doing all this? We're gonna learn about
it in step twelve. This is the kind of stuff
that we drank over. This is the kind of stuff
that we ate over. Right, the feelings come up. We're resentful,

(01:05:23):
we're angry, we're carrying anger, we're carrying depression, we're carrying anxiety.
And it's like, yeah, okay, so if you do these steps,
you're gonna mitigate or or lessen the ways that those feelings,
that big ache, however it shows up, you're gonna you're

(01:05:46):
it's not gonna be running your life anymore. Yeah, and
making you do crazy stuff to make it to soothe it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:52):
Because once, if you don't go back and do these
steps and heal this stuff, it's just stuck in your body.
So all those feelings like you would have had that
then that's just a small story with that. Barista that
would have been lodged in your body. Yeah, and then
you just lodge another feeling on top of it, and
another on top of it, and then you have all
these unsettled, uneasy feelings just existing in your physical being.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
Yeah. I have another friend of mine who got into
a snit with a I think it was like a
Kroger cashier, you know, and they were like not kind,
you know what I mean, like, you know, and those
poor people probably get that ten times a day, absolutely, right.
And so they went out to their car in the
parking lot and they were like, I got to make
an amends. That was not cool. So they go back

(01:06:34):
into Kroger and they go to the cashier, right, and
they're like sorry, And the woman said, do you know
you are the first person in my entire three years
here at Kroger who's ever come back and said they
were sorry. And it's like, you don't understand the power

(01:06:54):
of just, you know, living out of spiritual principles.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Acting as human souls.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Yeah. And and by the way, do you know how
powerful it is when you go to your wife and say,
you know what, I was an alcoholic and this is
the ways that I failed you And that's a very
powerful moment, like so or with your children, to go

(01:07:22):
to them and say, with humility, this is my part,
and I'm sorry. This is healing. And sometimes those conversations
are very hard, and sometimes it requires multiple conversations, right,
but it's just the beginning of saying I'm owning my
part so that moving forward, our relationship can be restored
and whole and we can be whole together now and

(01:07:46):
I and if I do this, I won't have to
drink or you know, do all the crazy or whatever
your fix of choice is. I won't have to do
that anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
That's amazing. Okay, So step eight. Step nine make direct
amends to people want to ever possible accept when to
do so would injure them or other So.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
That's the second part. You just make a list in
the second party, is okay, take your list and go
start making.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Amends unless it would injure them. Tell me that part.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
Well, all right, so let me give an extreme example. Uh,
let's say you you need to make an amends to
your partner and you were maybe romantically involved with someone

(01:08:30):
your partner knows, and if you were to tell your
partner in while making amends, hey, by the way, I
slept with so and so. Now you've brought another person
into it, do you know what I mean? And it's
actually not fair to have to ruin that person's reputation

(01:08:56):
in the mind of the person you're making an amens to.
There are to times when amends would be too painful
for the person hearing it, and you might have to say,
you know, it's not time yet. I can say this, this,
and this, but I need to leave this off the
list for now until such a times. Many people when

(01:09:16):
they ask me or there may be and I've known
people who did that. It's just like, you want that
amen's conversation to bring healing, not to retraumatize somebody. So
you know, you just have to be wise and discerning
because sometimes people be like, I want to tell you
everything because then I feel great. It's like, well, actually
that's not the point. Like it's like and then the

(01:09:38):
other person who's walking away a bloody terrible right, this
was a terrible experience, and you feel awesome now because
you confessed everything. It's like, you just have to be
wise about what you share. And you're timing, and you're timing,
but you you know, you begin the process.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
Okay, So then we have step ten, continue to take
personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted.

Speaker 3 (01:09:58):
And that's that story from OSA, right, just when you
get to tend to so look at it this way.
Steps one to three are men di and deepen your
relationship with God. Steps four to seven men did and
deepen your relationship with yourself. Steps eight and nine men
did and deepen your relationships with other people? Right, and
now in ten to twelve, these are maintenance.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Maintenance.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
You know, it's like, okay, well, how do I now
live this new way of life moving forward? Well here's
the first one. I continue to take personal inventory. When
I'm wrong, I go back to OSA and I tell Felicity,
I'm sorry, right, Or if I snap at my wife,
I come back into the room later and I say, baby,
I'm sorry. How do I make it up to you?
If you you know, whatever it is right, promptly just

(01:10:41):
keeping accounts up to date. We're not letting stuff go
out standing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
Yep, yep, Okay, So now we're on Till eleven sought
through prayer and meditation, to improve our conscious contact with
God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of
his will for us us and the power to carry
that out.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
Yeah, So one of the things that I want to
everyone knows, like the Twelve Steps is not a self
help program. If if yourself could have helped yourself, wouldn't
yourself have done it? By now you know what I mean.
It's just not a self help program. So what it
is is a spiritual program of living that addresses the
hole and the soul or the thing that is the

(01:11:20):
big ache, right and that we can't do for ourselves.
And so here we have an example of like, well,
how do I stay in good contact with my higher
power God?

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Like I just on a daily basis, how do I
stay attuned in line aligned with with my higher power?
So every morning, for example, I get up and I
have a prayer time, I have a meditation time, I
have spiritual books that I read. I journal, I have
a gratitude journal. I have every day you know. So
it's like I just have ways of making sure that
I am really connected and consciously aware of my higher

(01:11:58):
power is ongoing activety in my life from moment to
moment throughout the day. That's my goal. Now, sometimes I
forget and you know, and I got to come back right. Well,
that's normal, but that's part of just good maintenance.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
I love this though, because it actually involves us to
be like aware and conscious and doing work on ourselves,
like not like work like therapists, and like therapist work
is great and all that, but this is like, Okay,
we're actually like working intentionally on ourselves every day and
we have a protocol to follow and we know the system.
It's like all machines need to have a system that

(01:12:32):
runs them. You know, there's like an operating board. It's
like keeping our operating board clean, keeping the wires in
the right place.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
Yes, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
It's like we're not crossing wires. It's not going to
explode and it's not going to malfunction because we're making
sure we're checking our system every day.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
And then we just had one thing where you just said,
which was great. It is about working on myself and
even more, it's about giving God consent to work on
me so that he can do for me what I've
never been able to do for myself through my own efforts. Yeah,

(01:13:09):
which has really changed me at the deepest part of
my person.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
Because God's right here with you.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
Yeah, I mean, just the whole fixation that people have
on I'm going to fix myself. This is the year
I work on myself. It's like, okay, good intention, but
actually you're going to end up frustrated and despairing. You'll
see some improvement, but I'm talking about deep level transformation.
That's a spirituality a question, not a psychology or self

(01:13:36):
care question.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Yeah, okay, final step, step twelve. Having had a spiritual
awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics or fellow sufferers and practice
these principles in all of our affairs.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Yeah. So here's where we get to the the end
of the sentence. Right. I love what it says in
the beginning, having had a spiritual awakening as the result
of these steps. So when someone says what's the point
of the steps, and people will be like, oh, it's
to help people stop drinking. No, that's not true. That's
a product of the steps, but that is not the

(01:14:11):
point of the steps. Having had a spiritual wakning. So
the point of the steps is to facilitate a spiritual
awakening of sufficient force or intensity magnitude that it not
only expels your need for an external solution, a drink,

(01:14:31):
a drug. You know, whatever you fix a choice is
it just renders it unnecessary because now God is filling
the hole that that was trying to fix.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
And that happens naturally when you actually work the steps,
and so what.

Speaker 3 (01:14:48):
Is the then the ultimate fruit of it is service
to others. It's not about you. You get to the
twelve step and it's like having had a spiritual awakening
as the results of these steps. We try to carry
these principles to fellow sufferers, right, or we try to,
you know, introduce them to this way of life just

(01:15:08):
by being of service, being useful, being good people, being
people of character, people of integrity, people who are sane whole. Right,
It's like the point is now having been transformed, I
take this out into the world so that it becomes
a blessing to others. That's the point.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
That's amazing. Ian Kron, this is awesome. I love this book,
The Fix. I love all your books. I mean, I've
these The Road back to You has single handedly changed
so many people in my immediate life's life. The Fix,
I feel like, is going to give us such a
just opening up this pro this program and these like

(01:15:52):
you said, like these steps that can we that we
need to do.

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
We need to.

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
Be checking in on ourselves, ci hearing our inventory, taking
note of what's going on, connecting with God, bringing him
into our daily conversation, making amends, keeping ourselves clean. Because
if you keep yourself clean, what's the result?

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
Well, you know it is when people say garbage in,
garbage Outah, good stuff in, good stuff out.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Yeah, right, so it's not clogging your pipes.

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
It's about again, like I was saying earlier, mending and
deepening our relationship with God, ourselves and others. And then
as then as a result of all that, you have
a spiritual awakening. And then you're able to take all
this transformation that will happen in your life out into
the world so that you are an agent of love
and goodness and kindness and compassion and of service. And

(01:16:44):
now your life is no longer just about you, now
it's about us.

Speaker 2 (01:16:49):
I always wrap up with leave your Light, and it's
super open ended. What do you want people to know?
Just some inspiration? Obviously this is very inspiring, But if
you had to drop one nugget, what do you want
to tell people?

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
What do I want people to know? Well, I guess
this morning, I'd say, you know so many people that
transformation is possible. Like, people often find themselves in these
desperate moments where they're like, is this ever gonna change? Right?
Like you probably had that feeling many times as you

(01:17:22):
wrestled with the needing disorders? This ever gonna change? Is
this marriage ever gonna change? Is my character ever gonna change?
It's my anxiety ever going to go away? My depression
ever going to go away? Are my insecurities and competence
deficits ever gonna go away? They can? And things like
the Twelve Steps and the Steps aren't like the only
system of living that can help people, right, I just

(01:17:44):
think it's particularly powerful and because it's worked with tens
of millions of people who were really in serious trouble,
I'm like, you want to check these out because like
there's some evidence that they really work. Whatever it takes,
whatever avenue you have to go, the truth of the
matter is people do and can experience transformation.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
I love that. Ian Kron. The Fix It is out
this week. After this podcast airs on Monday, it will
be out on Thursday. Thank you so much for writing
these books, digging into your depth and sharing all this
wisdom and knowledge that you have learned going on your
journey and being so intentional in your healing process and

(01:18:26):
then putting it into a book form, that these books
truly are changing lives, my own included like in my families.
Thank you so much for doing this work. Well, this
is hard work. This takes a lot of energy and
effort and a lot of vulnerability and then a lot
of faith and I just appreciate your commitment to it.
Thanks here, This was so great talking to you. I

(01:18:48):
have a great book signing tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
Thank you, Ian Crin, Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):
Bye from to Ternis contain from Na

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