Dr. Wendy is giving advice for when your partner changes, and therapy speak in dating. PLUS she is offering her Wendy wisdom with her drive by makeshift relationship advice. It's all on KFIAM-640!
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to kf
I Am six forty, the Doctor Wendy Wallsh Show on
demand on the iHeartRadio app k I AM six forty.
You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the
Doctor Wendy Wallsh Show. Good to have you with me.
Let's talk about your relationship. What happens when one partner
changes and the other doesn't. How does a relationship adapt?
(00:23):
Also therapy speak in dating people throwing around some pop
psych terms in their dating life. Is this a good
thing or a bad thing? And also we're in the
spring time for lots of breakups and why one partner
usually doesn't see it coming. We're going to talk about
the science of this. Producer, Kayla, how are you live
(00:46):
in the dream? Doctor Wayndey live in the dream?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Raight?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, good to see you. How are you excellent? And
happy to see you too? Thank you? Andrew? Do we
have you with us?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You do?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Oh my god?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
How are you great?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
So this is the first time I've done your show
since you moved to this time slot.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Oh right, We pass each other in the parking garage, Yeah,
pass some ships in the night. That's right, Well, good
to have you with us. Yeah, so today I was, well,
let me go back a couple days ago. I was
on a young woman's podcast. She was bright and smart,
and she talks about her life and dating, et cetera.
(01:23):
She was at a Toronto and you're gonna ask your name,
and I'm gonna say I don't remember. She'll send me
the link to it and then we'll know. But anyway,
she used some terms that a lot of young women,
successful women use when they talk about dating. One is
when she heard my prescription for using the dating apps,
which is get on the phone quickly, have a quick
coffee date, and then decide if you want to have
(01:45):
a first date, she said, I would never do that.
A coffee date doesn't that lower the bar? I want
someone to take me out, wind me, dine me, I
go a total stranger off the street that you haven't
assessed yet. No. And the other term she used is
that she doesn't want to settle. I find it fascinating
(02:07):
how many people say I don't want to settle, because
what they're hoping is that there will be some person
out there that is so high value to them that
if that person turns and gives them a look and
invites them into their life that somehow they will like
(02:28):
themselves better settle for what did she mean a man
with less money? Did she mean? She didn't mean an
unkind man. She wants somebody high up on that totem pole.
And when I started talking to her about how we
have an oversupply of successful women in the mating marketplace
and that the idea of a power guy might just
(02:51):
be a guy who can power a stroller, she said,
I've got to get my head around that. I said, yes,
patriarchy lives in your head too. Patriarchy is the thing
that keeps it. Basically, the more education and money a
woman makes, the more she wants a malemate to make
more than her. And there's only a small group of
those guys, and they're riding this wave of free sex
(03:12):
in today's culture. They're not about to commit, and then
women have the fertility window that men don't have, so
it's a hard time for a lot of women. I
told her about this trend that I'd seen years ago
when I visited my daughter in Stockholm when she was
on her semester abroad. I witnessed these roving bands of muscled, tattooed,
bearded men in coffee shops, all wearing babies and changing
(03:37):
diapers and strolling kids around. And now they're actually a
trend on TikTok called the latte dads. They call the
latte Dads, and I've seen a few videos and they
literally just like walking around Stockholm. And you know why
that is because the government legislated that, yes, eighteen months
of parental leave pay parental leave are necessary to take
(04:02):
care of a young infant, but they can't all be
taken by one parent. At least three months or more
have to be taken by the other parent. So it's
the government is legislating fatherhood, or shall I say, they're
underwriting fatherhood, so that guys can do what they are
naturally good at if you give them the space and
(04:24):
the time and the money to do it. So today
I was reading the New York Times and we now
have an American version this club in Brooklyn called the
Brooklyn Stroll Club, founded by a guy named Joe Gonzales,
and their slogan is where men find community and all
fathers are welcome, and they do parenting classes, baby classes,
(04:48):
music classes, and they hang out the park they stroll together,
so they're making PDFs normal public displays of fatherhood, normalized right,
And this is what women have to learn to see
more often, respect more often, because if we do have
(05:08):
we're in the information age. Or I like to say
women are better suited to make money in the information
age because well, we're better talkers and texters and we
have more social sensitivity.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
This is our.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Time to earn money and get ahead. I have told
you enough. I teach on a college campus. We have
seen the feminization of college campuses for the last twenty
years and it continues. I'm on a campus. It's about
sixty nine percent female. For every one guy that graduates
from college in America, there are two or three women.
And even the hard sciences in medical schools, in law
(05:42):
schools at least fifty percent women. So, ladies, if you
would like to be in your fertility window at the
same time you're earning your career, who's going to help
you with the kid? So in your dating life, why
are you saying I don't want to settle and I
want I want to male right, No, you want a
(06:03):
kind hearted, good guy. You know, there's research from the
University of Texas Austin doctor David Buss, and he looked
at a cross cultural study around the world of what
women look for most often and men, and I'm talking
specifically about heterosexual women, and they tend to look at
resource potential first, but right behind that they look at
(06:24):
intelligence because if there was a bad season and the
crops failed or they couldn't forage and find food, you
hope he'd be smart enough to figure it out. They're
saying that this is in our evolution by the way
that it's old, old feelings women have. But third, right
behind resource potential and intelligence is kindness. So what I'm
(06:45):
saying is, for this life and this time, why can't
we put kindness first? And ladies, don't make a man
court you like he's the prince and you're Cinderella at
a ball. Go have a quick coffee. You do not
need to give him any more of your time a
total stranger than like twenty minutes, and then leave early, right,
(07:07):
leave them want more at all times, and assess them
for kindness. Last week I talked about micromancing guys who
can't afford the big gestures, who are doing things like
washing your car and fixing stuff around the house and
being kind to you. These should be the traits that
will show you that he'll be a great dad someday.
(07:29):
All right, when we come back, maybe you are in
a relationship and maybe something's changed. Somebody decides they're going
to change careers, or they lost their job, maybe they
were laid off. Maybe somebody says I'm going to go
back to school and get this, or I want to
stay home with the kids. I know we said we didn't,
but I'm unprepared for how much I missed the kids
(07:51):
I want to be. You know, so one person changes,
how does the relationship adapt when that happens. Let's talk
about it when we come back. You are listening to
the Doctor Wendy Walls Show and k I Am six forty.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
Am six forty.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
K I Am six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh
with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walls Show. I'd
like to welcome by TikTok audience.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Hig TikTok.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
If you want to come in the studio and say
hello and see us, just take out your cell phone
and go to TikTok and search doctor Wendy Walsh d
R Wendy Walsh, and there we will be. If you're
new to my show, I have a PhD in clinical psychology.
I'm a psychology professor at California State University, Channel Islands,
Go Dolphins, and I am obsessed with the science of love.
(08:38):
I've written three books on relationships, did my dissertation on
attachment style and well, I'm just obsessed because I had
a bad love life myself for a long time. Happily married.
Now I took my own advice, learned how to use
those apps and date well, choose well. Okay, I want
to talk specifically about and just to let you know
(09:00):
after a couple more. What time are producer, Kayla, when
are we going to startaking people's calls? Seven forty five
Pacific time? We will start taking your calls live, So
you want to write down the number one eight hundred
and five, two zero, one, five, three four, but not
till seven forty five.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
All right.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I want to talk about what happens when one partner
changes in a relationship. Now, I'm talking about major or
sort of around the middle of things that happen to
humans across a lifespan. Maybe the change is because they,
sadly happening a lot in America right now, lost their
job and all of a sudden, this upsets the whole dynamic.
(09:35):
Maybe one of them has children and says, you know,
I was going to keep working, but now I see
how attached I am to my child. That happened to me.
I was unprepared for the overwhelming desire to nurture that
I would have, and I had to somehow try to
adjust my whole work life to that. So maybe that's it.
Maybe it's that somebody just is unhappy with their work
(09:56):
and want to do something completely different, or they want
to go back to school, or god forbid, maybe they
have health problems and it changes the whole dynamic of
the relationship. So how can you effectively support your partner
during these kinds of life transitions. Well, I want to
(10:17):
remind you that it's important to know that relationships are
always changing. They're dynamic because they involve two people. You know,
my favorite metaphor, if you will, for a romantic relationship
is a Venn diagram, two circles, right, So one person's
here and one person's here, and they're going to overlap
(10:38):
a little, and that part in the middle is the relationship.
But each person outside of that circle, that middle part
is going to continue to grow. They should because they
bring newness into the relationship, whether it's new places they
go to, new people they meet, new jobs. They come home,
there's new stuff to talk about.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
With my husband Julio, I love it when he comes
home from a day wherever he is, his meetings or whatever,
and he'll always come in the door and say something
like this, get this. And I know when he says
get this, there's going to be a good story about
his day. And this is one of the things that
keeps our relationship exciting because we both have different careers
in different areas and we sort of know who all
(11:20):
the players. Of course, I have to stop and a
number mimind me who that person is again and what
project are they working with. I have to kind of
catch up because I haven't met everybody, right, get this,
he says. So it's important that people do continue to
grow across the lifespan, because if not, you become enmeshed
circle on top of a circle where nobody can remember
(11:41):
whose problem is who's and at a certain point, one
person will want to completely break free just to have
some autonomy. So you want to be able to grow
and then still nurture the relationship. So I also want
to remind you that a romantic relationship is an exchange
of care. That care can take many forms. It could
(12:02):
be financial care, it could be sexual care. It could
be emotional support care. It could be intellectual stimulation care.
It can be childcare. It can be domestic responsibility care. Right,
whatever that exchange of care is, to somebody looking from
the outside, they might think it doesn't look fair. But
each individual places high value on those things. So example,
(12:26):
I was a single bomb for twenty years. I had
two kids. I was busy working, being the nurture provider, everything,
one hundred percent custody, zero dollars child support. I was everything,
And when I would come home if the place was
messy or whatever, I didn't have the time to be
a good parent and say, okay, honey, let's clean up
before we move to the next thing. All right, who's
(12:48):
going to help me cook dinner? Oh no, The rule
is you don't get to eat unless you have I
did not have time for what those textbooks say is
good parenting. I came in and went out of my way.
I got to clean up fast as a result. I
have kids who are lazy. Oh they keep their own
apartments very spotless now, but in my house they were lazy.
So I marry Julio, and Julio loves to judicious. Julio
(13:12):
loves to fold laundry. When I go away on business,
he decides to do the floors. I mean, the value
I place on that is so high, so high, so
somebody might look at it and be like, well, he's
not doing this or that. I'm like, are you kidding?
I come home to a spotless place with clean, changed
sheets that smell delicious, all because of him. Right, So
(13:35):
what happens when one partner changes is the exchange of
care may change. If one person's been giving a lot
of financial care, it may be time for them not
to be giving so much financial care. If they've lost
their job, they may need more emotional care. So every
relationship has an unconscious contract, right. It's usually silent and unspoken,
(13:57):
and it just kind of unfolds my relationships. Certainly with Julio.
Everything is discussed, so everything's out there on the table.
But when a big life transition happens. This is not
the time for silence. This is not the time to ignore.
This is the time to talk about how the contract
is changing and how you're gonna accommodate it. Right, It
(14:21):
just means the contracts being renegotiated. It doesn't mean the
relationship has to end. It doesn't mean that the relationship
is going to fall into an unfair exchange of hair. Hare.
Maybe they are exchanging hair. I know Julio would probably
like some of my hair. It's okay, baby, I like
you bald, It's fine. And if it comes to the
(14:42):
financial piece, you know what, that's the prickly conversation that
I hope you've been having your entire relationship. You got
to talk about money. It's the hard thing, right, all right?
When we come back. I have noticed, have I noticed
that there's a lot of a therapy speak happening in dating?
(15:04):
You know, people will say, oh, I went out with him,
but I think he's a narcissist or she's an avoidant,
And I'm like, really, do you know how to diagnose?
I mean, I'm not even clinician. I can't shouldn't diagnose, right,
but yet people are doing it on date? Is this
a good thing or a bad thing. Let's talk about
this when we come back. You are listening to the
(15:26):
Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI AM six forty live
everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty k I Am six forty.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the
Doctor Wendy Walls Show. I'm trying to go live on Instagram,
but it keeps taking my audio off. Is it this
last week too? I wonder because I'm saying, like live
on KFI and iHeartRadio and download the iHeartRadio app. And
maybe they think I'm promoting some thing or something. If
anyone knows the answer to that of why my live
(16:04):
streams on Instagram when I'm in this studio the sound
keeps getting taken away. If anybody knows the rule, send
me a DM on ig and explain it to us.
All right, therapy speak in dating. It is the new thing. Everybody,
it seems, is an armchair psychologist, right. And I have
(16:24):
to say, I'm of two minds here. I think it
is both good and it is bad. Of course, the
best thing about increased use of psychological terms in our
personal lives in general, especially when we're exploring interpersonal relationships,
is that people are starting to realize that emotional health
(16:46):
is important and this is one thing we should be
assessing when we're assessing whether somebody would be a good mate.
You did a kit Kayla, got me up and going,
thank you. If you want to come on to Instagram,
come on, tell me if there's volume or not on Instagram.
There we go. So I think it's a good thing
that we're caring about mental health. I think it's a
good thing that we're learning about some of these psychological terms.
(17:10):
People are starting to realize that choosing a mate is
a life altering decision. Your choice of mate can impact
your quality of life for the rest of your life. Literally,
it can sink you into poverty or help you accumulate wealth.
It can cause you to have good or bad mental health,
(17:33):
or it could, you know, cause you to have good
or bad physical health. Even you know, there's so much
research to support the idea that long term committed people
in secure attachments actually live longer, they have better mental health,
better physical health, and they tend to accumulate more wealth.
(17:55):
So it's understandable that people see the importance of this decision, right,
and single people have an awareness of good emotional health
and how important that is for a mate. The problem
lies in the fact that the average person does not
hold a PhD in psychology, and becoming an armchair psychologist
(18:17):
can lead to dangerous misdiagnoses, or at least big misunderstandings
of human behavior. You know, sometimes people just have atypical
behavior and you don't have to see it as a
symptom of something bigger. You don't have to pathologize everything
(18:38):
in dating. And it makes me want to think about
who are the people who are most likely to do that,
you know, not just saying oh is that a red flag?
Or are they being a narcissist? Are they gaslighting? I
don't know. They seem to have a personality disorder. I
think he's a sociopath. I think she's a little crazy.
That's a good word they use, right, Let's talk about
(19:00):
who those people are who diagnose dates instead of saying, oh,
we're a good match or not a good match. The
single people who are most at risk of pathologizing dating
behaviors are people who have probably suffered trauma in their
own early lives and as a result, they're missing a
(19:20):
clear definition of love, of attachment security. In other words,
they've been hurt in the past, okay, now they want
to protect themselves from hurt in the future. But psychologists
would say that they don't have a healthy, internal, working
model of love. That means they don't know what normal
(19:40):
feels like, normal love feels like, or typical love. So
in an attempt to protect themselves from future pain, they
question their dates behaviors and wonder if their date is dangerous.
And also, plenty of these people using these psychological terms
for dates probably picked them up in their or they're
(20:01):
reading a lot of self help books, so they're getting
the lingo down, but not the deeper definition. Right now,
I'm not going to lie to you. Attachment style is important.
It is the most studied and quantifiable theory of psychology.
(20:22):
Our early life attachment organization that happens usually in the
first often the first twelve months of life, when the
brain triples in size in response to how our caregivers
took care of us. That becomes our model for love,
our idea of what love should feel like, and so
early life attachment has been studied so much that it's
(20:45):
been correlated with educational attainment, income, number of divorces, even
physical health. Right, So I'm not going to lie attachment's important.
But what does that mean. It means you need to
understand your own attachment style. That's what you need to do.
(21:06):
You need to understand your own And I just want
to tell everybody. I tell everybody, I tell my students.
We take this test in class. If you want to
know where your attachment style is, you take a test
written by a researcher by the name of Chris Frayley
fr L E. Y. Just google the words Chris Frayley
Attachment test and it'll come up and you can find out.
Take the longer one. There's a short version along one.
Take the longer one and you can find out your
(21:27):
own attachment style. But the point is not to diagnose
somebody else's attachment style. It's about you and your feelings
in relationships. So instead of saying I think I'm with
yet another avoidant person, instead say hmm, I didn't feel
like my needs were taken care of, and yet I'm
still feeling strangely attracted to them. I wonder if that's
(21:49):
my anxious attachment style, rearing up, self diagnose right instead
of somebody else. Someone asked me this week, how can
you stop looking for red flags when you're dating and
instead find some peace and enjoyment while dating. I think
they have the whole idea of dating wrong. Dating is
not about finding peace and enjoyment. All dating is fraught
(22:11):
with anxiety. It's a period of mate evaluation. It's not
meant to be fun in games, folks. It's about making
a very serious decision for your life, and so you're
going to have a healthy amount of anxiety. Oh sure,
people put on an Academy Award winning performance of Oh
my god, I'm this, I'm you're this, you're that. Oh
you like that music, you like that movie. That's great,
(22:32):
that's fun, let's have another drink. But inside they're both
really anxious. They're both wanting to be liked. They're both
wanting to assess the compatibility of the person right now.
Exception might be somebody looking for a short term relationship,
which is okay if that's what you're looking for, you know,
just go have fun, don't assess whatever. We're a condom,
That's all I'm saying. But you don't need to do
(22:55):
the big assessment. Look, dating involves strategy. When I use
that term to a friend this week, she said, it
sounds like game playing, and I said, oh no, no,
it's not playing games. It's an ancient art form. And
you're here today because your parents and their parents, and
their parents and their parents excelled at the mating game,
(23:15):
and so you can learn those skills too. Hey, when
we come back, I'm taking your calls. The numbers one
eight hundred five two zero one five three four. That's
one eight hundred five two zero one KFI. If you're shy,
you can send me a DM on Instagram. Otherwise, give
me a call one eight hundred five two zero one
five three four. If you have a relationship question, let
(23:38):
me weigh in on your love life. You're listening to
the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show on KFI AM six forty
live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
KFI AM six forty, you have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you.
This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show, and I am
taken your calls. If you'd like to give me a call.
The number is one eight hundred five to zero one
five three four. That's one eight hundred and five to
zero one k fi. Okay, producer, Kayla, who do we have?
(24:13):
We have with the question? I'm sorry? Who is that like?
Darryl with an oh? Doral? Okay, Hi, Doryl, Darrel, Darryl
bad connection, Hi Daryl, it's doctor Wendy.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yes, thank you for thinking my call. So if surveys
saying women along guys who are respectful and gentlemen like,
why do nice guys end up finding being the most
difficult in finding true love?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I'll tell you why. So, first of all, Darryl, I
just want to say this politely, generally the guys. There's
other research to show guys who self identify as the
nice guys usually aren't. But I know what you mean.
What you mean is if I treat a woman with
kindness and respect, she seems to not be as interested
(25:02):
as when those other guys treat her badly. Well, that's
not the woman for you. That's a woman who has
trauma in her past or has an anxious attachment style,
and her model for love in her head, says pain
must be connected with love in order for it to
be real. And they use the words like passion right, Well,
that's their own arousal that happens when they meet someone
(25:25):
who will cause them pain. So your job as a good, kind,
respectful human is to move away from those women, because
there's going to be a woman out there who clearly
is looking for kindness. Now, having said that, Daryl, I
want to add one more thing. Women love a guy. Well,
all people of all genders love partners. They have to
(25:46):
work for a little bit, right, and so women will
use this term he's too nice, And what they mean
is does he have any self esteem? Self worth? Does
he allow me to kind of chase him a little bit?
And wonder where he is? Is just a little bit,
because you can be overly attentive and that makes you
look less valuable no matter what your gender. Anybody who's
(26:09):
too available, who's too easy, nobody wants, right, and so
you have to find that fine line between showing them
a little bit of kindness and respect and then disappearing
just a little bit. So they go, where'd that person go?
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
So there's your answer, Darryl, and I think you can
do this all right, producer Kayla. Who do we have next?
We have Mike with the question, Mike, we got the
guys calling again tonight. Hi, Mike gets doctor Wendy.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Hi, grieving doctor Wendy.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
What's your question?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
My question is I was in a twenty year verbally
and emotionally abusive relationship and I left about two years ago,
and I still find myself wanting to go back.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Oh, Mike, I know it's painful. Twenty years you were
in a relationship that you describe as being emotionally and
verbally abusive, and yet you still miss this person, You
still want to be with them. And this is exactly
(27:14):
the kind of situation where instead of going back to
them and going back to that familiar pain, Remember it's
familiarity that we crave, not necessarily happiness. Right, Instead of
going back to that familiar pain, I would encourage you
to go and see a licensed therapist and find out
where this began, because I promise you it didn't begin
(27:35):
with this relationship. It began much earlier. You see, we
all have this idea in our head. We have a
model for love, We have an idea for love. Love
is not about finding happiness. Love is not about finding pleasure.
Love is about finding the familiar, and our model for
love gets established in like the first three years of life.
(27:59):
And so I know you miss this person, but you know,
like you started off this conversation by saying I was
in an emotionally and verbally abusive relationship. So you started
off with your intellectual brain telling me what I'm supposed
to tell you, which is don't go back. But I
(28:20):
do want to see you get help from a licensed
therapist so that you don't choose, because that's the other thing.
Until you heal, you'll choose a similar person because that's
what love feels like to you. So you'll fall back
into the same kind of situation but with a different person,
and I don't want to see that happen to you. Mike,
thank you so much for calling. Okay, let me go
(28:42):
to social media if you want to call. The number
is one eight hundred five two zero one KFI. That's
one eight hundred five to zero one five three four.
All right. Here's a DM that came to me. Hey,
doctor Wendy, does lining up two to three first and
second dates in a week count as dating multiple people?
(29:05):
I'm assuming these two to three first and second dates
are with different people, right, I think once you get
to a third date, that's the time to start making decisions,
and definitely before sex. I guess I need a little
more information. I'm just looking into dating now after twenty
three years of marriage. Okay, I understand the question. Now,
(29:26):
So this person is asking, first of all, what's wrong
with dating multiple people? You actually got it right. If
you're not having sex with them, you can see as
many people as you want in the course of a week.
But I mean three dates a week is a lot. Okay,
don't you got to go work, go to the gym,
get some sleep. That's a lot. Two or three? I
mean yeah. So I'm just saying take it slow. I'm saying,
(29:52):
don't have sex with them, and as long as you're
not having sex with them, you can date them as
long as you want while you're making your decision. But
don't get cloudy, meaning don't fall victim to paradox of
choice where you're presented with so many dates and so
many well I like this one for this, but I
like this one for that, and I just can't really decide.
This is what our brain does when it's presented with
too much choice. It doesn't make a choice, and if
(30:13):
it does make a choice, it doesn't value that choice
very much. So just letting you know, go slow, don't
have sex till you're ready, and it's okay to date
a couple or three people at once. That's my feeling,
that's my permission, all right. When we come back, I'll
continue to answer your relationship questions live as well as
go to social media. The handle is at Dr Wendy
(30:33):
Walsh and the phone numbers one eight hundred and five
two zero one, five three four. You've been listening to
Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear us live on
KFI Am six forty from seven to nine pm on
Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app.
This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to kf
I Am six forty, the Doctor Wendy Wallsh Show on
demand on the iHeartRadio app k I AM six forty.
You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the
Doctor Wendy Wallsh Show. Good to have you with me.
Let's talk about your relationship. What happens when one partner
changes and the other doesn't. How does a relationship adapt?
(00:23):
Also therapy speak in dating people throwing around some pop
psych terms in their dating life. Is this a good
thing or a bad thing? And also we're in the
spring time for lots of breakups and why one partner
usually doesn't see it coming. We're going to talk about
the science of this. Producer, Kayla, how are you live
(00:46):
in the dream? Doctor Wayndey live in the dream?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Raight?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, good to see you. How are you excellent? And
happy to see you too? Thank you? Andrew? Do we
have you with us?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
You do?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Oh my god?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
How are you great?
Speaker 4 (00:58):
So this is the first time I've done your show
since you moved to this time slot.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Oh right, We pass each other in the parking garage, Yeah,
pass some ships in the night. That's right, Well, good
to have you with us. Yeah, so today I was, well,
let me go back a couple days ago. I was
on a young woman's podcast. She was bright and smart,
and she talks about her life and dating, et cetera.
(01:23):
She was at a Toronto and you're gonna ask your name,
and I'm gonna say I don't remember. She'll send me
the link to it and then we'll know. But anyway,
she used some terms that a lot of young women,
successful women use when they talk about dating. One is
when she heard my prescription for using the dating apps,
which is get on the phone quickly, have a quick
coffee date, and then decide if you want to have
(01:45):
a first date, she said, I would never do that.
A coffee date doesn't that lower the bar? I want
someone to take me out, wind me, dine me, I
go a total stranger off the street that you haven't
assessed yet. No. And the other term she used is
that she doesn't want to settle. I find it fascinating
(02:07):
how many people say I don't want to settle, because
what they're hoping is that there will be some person
out there that is so high value to them that
if that person turns and gives them a look and
invites them into their life that somehow they will like
(02:28):
themselves better settle for what did she mean a man
with less money? Did she mean? She didn't mean an
unkind man. She wants somebody high up on that totem pole.
And when I started talking to her about how we
have an oversupply of successful women in the mating marketplace
and that the idea of a power guy might just
(02:51):
be a guy who can power a stroller, she said,
I've got to get my head around that. I said, yes,
patriarchy lives in your head too. Patriarchy is the thing
that keeps it. Basically, the more education and money a
woman makes, the more she wants a malemate to make
more than her. And there's only a small group of
those guys, and they're riding this wave of free sex
(03:12):
in today's culture. They're not about to commit, and then
women have the fertility window that men don't have, so
it's a hard time for a lot of women. I
told her about this trend that I'd seen years ago
when I visited my daughter in Stockholm when she was
on her semester abroad. I witnessed these roving bands of muscled, tattooed,
bearded men in coffee shops, all wearing babies and changing
(03:37):
diapers and strolling kids around. And now they're actually a
trend on TikTok called the latte dads. They call the
latte Dads, and I've seen a few videos and they
literally just like walking around Stockholm. And you know why
that is because the government legislated that, yes, eighteen months
of parental leave pay parental leave are necessary to take
(04:02):
care of a young infant, but they can't all be
taken by one parent. At least three months or more
have to be taken by the other parent. So it's
the government is legislating fatherhood, or shall I say, they're
underwriting fatherhood, so that guys can do what they are
naturally good at if you give them the space and
(04:24):
the time and the money to do it. So today
I was reading the New York Times and we now
have an American version this club in Brooklyn called the
Brooklyn Stroll Club, founded by a guy named Joe Gonzales,
and their slogan is where men find community and all
fathers are welcome, and they do parenting classes, baby classes,
(04:48):
music classes, and they hang out the park they stroll together,
so they're making PDFs normal public displays of fatherhood, normalized right,
And this is what women have to learn to see
more often, respect more often, because if we do have
(05:08):
we're in the information age. Or I like to say
women are better suited to make money in the information
age because well, we're better talkers and texters and we
have more social sensitivity.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
This is our.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Time to earn money and get ahead. I have told
you enough. I teach on a college campus. We have
seen the feminization of college campuses for the last twenty
years and it continues. I'm on a campus. It's about
sixty nine percent female. For every one guy that graduates
from college in America, there are two or three women.
And even the hard sciences in medical schools, in law
(05:42):
schools at least fifty percent women. So, ladies, if you
would like to be in your fertility window at the
same time you're earning your career, who's going to help
you with the kid? So in your dating life, why
are you saying I don't want to settle and I
want I want to male right, No, you want a
(06:03):
kind hearted, good guy. You know, there's research from the
University of Texas Austin doctor David Buss, and he looked
at a cross cultural study around the world of what
women look for most often and men, and I'm talking
specifically about heterosexual women, and they tend to look at
resource potential first, but right behind that they look at
(06:24):
intelligence because if there was a bad season and the
crops failed or they couldn't forage and find food, you
hope he'd be smart enough to figure it out. They're
saying that this is in our evolution by the way
that it's old, old feelings women have. But third, right
behind resource potential and intelligence is kindness. So what I'm
(06:45):
saying is, for this life and this time, why can't
we put kindness first? And ladies, don't make a man
court you like he's the prince and you're Cinderella at
a ball. Go have a quick coffee. You do not
need to give him any more of your time a
total stranger than like twenty minutes, and then leave early, right,
(07:07):
leave them want more at all times, and assess them
for kindness. Last week I talked about micromancing guys who
can't afford the big gestures, who are doing things like
washing your car and fixing stuff around the house and
being kind to you. These should be the traits that
will show you that he'll be a great dad someday.
(07:29):
All right, when we come back, maybe you are in
a relationship and maybe something's changed. Somebody decides they're going
to change careers, or they lost their job, maybe they
were laid off. Maybe somebody says I'm going to go
back to school and get this, or I want to
stay home with the kids. I know we said we didn't,
but I'm unprepared for how much I missed the kids
(07:51):
I want to be. You know, so one person changes,
how does the relationship adapt when that happens. Let's talk
about it when we come back. You are listening to
the Doctor Wendy Walls Show and k I Am six forty.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
Am six forty.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
K I Am six forty. You have Doctor Wendy Walsh
with you. This is the Doctor Wendy Walls Show. I'd
like to welcome by TikTok audience.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Hig TikTok.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
If you want to come in the studio and say
hello and see us, just take out your cell phone
and go to TikTok and search doctor Wendy Walsh d
R Wendy Walsh, and there we will be. If you're
new to my show, I have a PhD in clinical psychology.
I'm a psychology professor at California State University, Channel Islands,
Go Dolphins, and I am obsessed with the science of love.
(08:38):
I've written three books on relationships, did my dissertation on
attachment style and well, I'm just obsessed because I had
a bad love life myself for a long time. Happily married.
Now I took my own advice, learned how to use
those apps and date well, choose well. Okay, I want
to talk specifically about and just to let you know
(09:00):
after a couple more. What time are producer, Kayla, when
are we going to startaking people's calls? Seven forty five
Pacific time? We will start taking your calls live, So
you want to write down the number one eight hundred
and five, two zero, one, five, three four, but not
till seven forty five.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
All right.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I want to talk about what happens when one partner
changes in a relationship. Now, I'm talking about major or
sort of around the middle of things that happen to
humans across a lifespan. Maybe the change is because they,
sadly happening a lot in America right now, lost their
job and all of a sudden, this upsets the whole dynamic.
(09:35):
Maybe one of them has children and says, you know,
I was going to keep working, but now I see
how attached I am to my child. That happened to me.
I was unprepared for the overwhelming desire to nurture that
I would have, and I had to somehow try to
adjust my whole work life to that. So maybe that's it.
Maybe it's that somebody just is unhappy with their work
(09:56):
and want to do something completely different, or they want
to go back to school, or god forbid, maybe they
have health problems and it changes the whole dynamic of
the relationship. So how can you effectively support your partner
during these kinds of life transitions. Well, I want to
(10:17):
remind you that it's important to know that relationships are
always changing. They're dynamic because they involve two people. You know,
my favorite metaphor, if you will, for a romantic relationship
is a Venn diagram, two circles, right, So one person's
here and one person's here, and they're going to overlap
(10:38):
a little, and that part in the middle is the relationship.
But each person outside of that circle, that middle part
is going to continue to grow. They should because they
bring newness into the relationship, whether it's new places they
go to, new people they meet, new jobs. They come home,
there's new stuff to talk about.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
With my husband Julio, I love it when he comes
home from a day wherever he is, his meetings or whatever,
and he'll always come in the door and say something
like this, get this. And I know when he says
get this, there's going to be a good story about
his day. And this is one of the things that
keeps our relationship exciting because we both have different careers
in different areas and we sort of know who all
(11:20):
the players. Of course, I have to stop and a
number mimind me who that person is again and what
project are they working with. I have to kind of
catch up because I haven't met everybody, right, get this,
he says. So it's important that people do continue to
grow across the lifespan, because if not, you become enmeshed
circle on top of a circle where nobody can remember
(11:41):
whose problem is who's and at a certain point, one
person will want to completely break free just to have
some autonomy. So you want to be able to grow
and then still nurture the relationship. So I also want
to remind you that a romantic relationship is an exchange
of care. That care can take many forms. It could
(12:02):
be financial care, it could be sexual care. It could
be emotional support care. It could be intellectual stimulation care.
It can be childcare. It can be domestic responsibility care. Right,
whatever that exchange of care is, to somebody looking from
the outside, they might think it doesn't look fair. But
each individual places high value on those things. So example,
(12:26):
I was a single bomb for twenty years. I had
two kids. I was busy working, being the nurture provider, everything,
one hundred percent custody, zero dollars child support. I was everything,
And when I would come home if the place was
messy or whatever, I didn't have the time to be
a good parent and say, okay, honey, let's clean up
before we move to the next thing. All right, who's
(12:48):
going to help me cook dinner? Oh no, The rule
is you don't get to eat unless you have I
did not have time for what those textbooks say is
good parenting. I came in and went out of my way.
I got to clean up fast as a result. I
have kids who are lazy. Oh they keep their own
apartments very spotless now, but in my house they were lazy.
So I marry Julio, and Julio loves to judicious. Julio
(13:12):
loves to fold laundry. When I go away on business,
he decides to do the floors. I mean, the value
I place on that is so high, so high, so
somebody might look at it and be like, well, he's
not doing this or that. I'm like, are you kidding?
I come home to a spotless place with clean, changed
sheets that smell delicious, all because of him. Right, So
(13:35):
what happens when one partner changes is the exchange of
care may change. If one person's been giving a lot
of financial care, it may be time for them not
to be giving so much financial care. If they've lost
their job, they may need more emotional care. So every
relationship has an unconscious contract, right. It's usually silent and unspoken,
(13:57):
and it just kind of unfolds my relationships. Certainly with Julio.
Everything is discussed, so everything's out there on the table.
But when a big life transition happens. This is not
the time for silence. This is not the time to ignore.
This is the time to talk about how the contract
is changing and how you're gonna accommodate it. Right, It
(14:21):
just means the contracts being renegotiated. It doesn't mean the
relationship has to end. It doesn't mean that the relationship
is going to fall into an unfair exchange of hair. Hare.
Maybe they are exchanging hair. I know Julio would probably
like some of my hair. It's okay, baby, I like
you bald, It's fine. And if it comes to the
(14:42):
financial piece, you know what, that's the prickly conversation that
I hope you've been having your entire relationship. You got
to talk about money. It's the hard thing, right, all right?
When we come back. I have noticed, have I noticed
that there's a lot of a therapy speak happening in dating?
(15:04):
You know, people will say, oh, I went out with him,
but I think he's a narcissist or she's an avoidant,
And I'm like, really, do you know how to diagnose?
I mean, I'm not even clinician. I can't shouldn't diagnose, right,
but yet people are doing it on date? Is this
a good thing or a bad thing. Let's talk about
this when we come back. You are listening to the
(15:26):
Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI AM six forty live
everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty k I Am six forty.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
You have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you. This is the
Doctor Wendy Walls Show. I'm trying to go live on Instagram,
but it keeps taking my audio off. Is it this
last week too? I wonder because I'm saying, like live
on KFI and iHeartRadio and download the iHeartRadio app. And
maybe they think I'm promoting some thing or something. If
anyone knows the answer to that of why my live
(16:04):
streams on Instagram when I'm in this studio the sound
keeps getting taken away. If anybody knows the rule, send
me a DM on ig and explain it to us.
All right, therapy speak in dating. It is the new thing. Everybody,
it seems, is an armchair psychologist, right. And I have
(16:24):
to say, I'm of two minds here. I think it
is both good and it is bad. Of course, the
best thing about increased use of psychological terms in our
personal lives in general, especially when we're exploring interpersonal relationships,
is that people are starting to realize that emotional health
(16:46):
is important and this is one thing we should be
assessing when we're assessing whether somebody would be a good mate.
You did a kit Kayla, got me up and going,
thank you. If you want to come on to Instagram,
come on, tell me if there's volume or not on Instagram.
There we go. So I think it's a good thing
that we're caring about mental health. I think it's a
good thing that we're learning about some of these psychological terms.
(17:10):
People are starting to realize that choosing a mate is
a life altering decision. Your choice of mate can impact
your quality of life for the rest of your life. Literally,
it can sink you into poverty or help you accumulate wealth.
It can cause you to have good or bad mental health,
(17:33):
or it could, you know, cause you to have good
or bad physical health. Even you know, there's so much
research to support the idea that long term committed people
in secure attachments actually live longer, they have better mental health,
better physical health, and they tend to accumulate more wealth.
(17:55):
So it's understandable that people see the importance of this decision, right,
and single people have an awareness of good emotional health
and how important that is for a mate. The problem
lies in the fact that the average person does not
hold a PhD in psychology, and becoming an armchair psychologist
(18:17):
can lead to dangerous misdiagnoses, or at least big misunderstandings
of human behavior. You know, sometimes people just have atypical
behavior and you don't have to see it as a
symptom of something bigger. You don't have to pathologize everything
(18:38):
in dating. And it makes me want to think about
who are the people who are most likely to do that,
you know, not just saying oh is that a red flag?
Or are they being a narcissist? Are they gaslighting? I
don't know. They seem to have a personality disorder. I
think he's a sociopath. I think she's a little crazy.
That's a good word they use, right, Let's talk about
(19:00):
who those people are who diagnose dates instead of saying, oh,
we're a good match or not a good match. The
single people who are most at risk of pathologizing dating
behaviors are people who have probably suffered trauma in their
own early lives and as a result, they're missing a
(19:20):
clear definition of love, of attachment security. In other words,
they've been hurt in the past, okay, now they want
to protect themselves from hurt in the future. But psychologists
would say that they don't have a healthy, internal, working
model of love. That means they don't know what normal
(19:40):
feels like, normal love feels like, or typical love. So
in an attempt to protect themselves from future pain, they
question their dates behaviors and wonder if their date is dangerous.
And also, plenty of these people using these psychological terms
for dates probably picked them up in their or they're
(20:01):
reading a lot of self help books, so they're getting
the lingo down, but not the deeper definition. Right now,
I'm not going to lie to you. Attachment style is important.
It is the most studied and quantifiable theory of psychology.
(20:22):
Our early life attachment organization that happens usually in the
first often the first twelve months of life, when the
brain triples in size in response to how our caregivers
took care of us. That becomes our model for love,
our idea of what love should feel like, and so
early life attachment has been studied so much that it's
(20:45):
been correlated with educational attainment, income, number of divorces, even
physical health. Right, So I'm not going to lie attachment's important.
But what does that mean. It means you need to
understand your own attachment style. That's what you need to do.
(21:06):
You need to understand your own And I just want
to tell everybody. I tell everybody, I tell my students.
We take this test in class. If you want to
know where your attachment style is, you take a test
written by a researcher by the name of Chris Frayley
fr L E. Y. Just google the words Chris Frayley
Attachment test and it'll come up and you can find out.
Take the longer one. There's a short version along one.
Take the longer one and you can find out your
(21:27):
own attachment style. But the point is not to diagnose
somebody else's attachment style. It's about you and your feelings
in relationships. So instead of saying I think I'm with
yet another avoidant person, instead say hmm, I didn't feel
like my needs were taken care of, and yet I'm
still feeling strangely attracted to them. I wonder if that's
(21:49):
my anxious attachment style, rearing up, self diagnose right instead
of somebody else. Someone asked me this week, how can
you stop looking for red flags when you're dating and
instead find some peace and enjoyment while dating. I think
they have the whole idea of dating wrong. Dating is
not about finding peace and enjoyment. All dating is fraught
(22:11):
with anxiety. It's a period of mate evaluation. It's not
meant to be fun in games, folks. It's about making
a very serious decision for your life, and so you're
going to have a healthy amount of anxiety. Oh sure,
people put on an Academy Award winning performance of Oh
my god, I'm this, I'm you're this, you're that. Oh
you like that music, you like that movie. That's great,
(22:32):
that's fun, let's have another drink. But inside they're both
really anxious. They're both wanting to be liked. They're both
wanting to assess the compatibility of the person right now.
Exception might be somebody looking for a short term relationship,
which is okay if that's what you're looking for, you know,
just go have fun, don't assess whatever. We're a condom,
That's all I'm saying. But you don't need to do
(22:55):
the big assessment. Look, dating involves strategy. When I use
that term to a friend this week, she said, it
sounds like game playing, and I said, oh no, no,
it's not playing games. It's an ancient art form. And
you're here today because your parents and their parents, and
their parents and their parents excelled at the mating game,
(23:15):
and so you can learn those skills too. Hey, when
we come back, I'm taking your calls. The numbers one
eight hundred five two zero one five three four. That's
one eight hundred five two zero one KFI. If you're shy,
you can send me a DM on Instagram. Otherwise, give
me a call one eight hundred five two zero one
five three four. If you have a relationship question, let
(23:38):
me weigh in on your love life. You're listening to
the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show on KFI AM six forty
live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI
AM six forty.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
KFI AM six forty, you have Doctor Wendy Walsh with you.
This is the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show, and I am
taken your calls. If you'd like to give me a call.
The number is one eight hundred five to zero one
five three four. That's one eight hundred and five to
zero one k fi. Okay, producer, Kayla, who do we have?
(24:13):
We have with the question? I'm sorry? Who is that like?
Darryl with an oh? Doral? Okay, Hi, Doryl, Darrel, Darryl
bad connection, Hi Daryl, it's doctor Wendy.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yes, thank you for thinking my call. So if surveys
saying women along guys who are respectful and gentlemen like,
why do nice guys end up finding being the most
difficult in finding true love?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I'll tell you why. So, first of all, Darryl, I
just want to say this politely, generally the guys. There's
other research to show guys who self identify as the
nice guys usually aren't. But I know what you mean.
What you mean is if I treat a woman with
kindness and respect, she seems to not be as interested
(25:02):
as when those other guys treat her badly. Well, that's
not the woman for you. That's a woman who has
trauma in her past or has an anxious attachment style,
and her model for love in her head, says pain
must be connected with love in order for it to
be real. And they use the words like passion right, Well,
that's their own arousal that happens when they meet someone
(25:25):
who will cause them pain. So your job as a good, kind,
respectful human is to move away from those women, because
there's going to be a woman out there who clearly
is looking for kindness. Now, having said that, Daryl, I
want to add one more thing. Women love a guy. Well,
all people of all genders love partners. They have to
(25:46):
work for a little bit, right, and so women will
use this term he's too nice, And what they mean
is does he have any self esteem? Self worth? Does
he allow me to kind of chase him a little bit?
And wonder where he is? Is just a little bit,
because you can be overly attentive and that makes you
look less valuable no matter what your gender. Anybody who's
(26:09):
too available, who's too easy, nobody wants, right, and so
you have to find that fine line between showing them
a little bit of kindness and respect and then disappearing
just a little bit. So they go, where'd that person go?
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Right?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
So there's your answer, Darryl, and I think you can
do this all right, producer Kayla. Who do we have next?
We have Mike with the question, Mike, we got the
guys calling again tonight. Hi, Mike gets doctor Wendy.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Hi, grieving doctor Wendy.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
What's your question?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
My question is I was in a twenty year verbally
and emotionally abusive relationship and I left about two years ago,
and I still find myself wanting to go back.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Oh, Mike, I know it's painful. Twenty years you were
in a relationship that you describe as being emotionally and
verbally abusive, and yet you still miss this person, You
still want to be with them. And this is exactly
(27:14):
the kind of situation where instead of going back to
them and going back to that familiar pain, Remember it's
familiarity that we crave, not necessarily happiness. Right, Instead of
going back to that familiar pain, I would encourage you
to go and see a licensed therapist and find out
where this began, because I promise you it didn't begin
(27:35):
with this relationship. It began much earlier. You see, we
all have this idea in our head. We have a
model for love, We have an idea for love. Love
is not about finding happiness. Love is not about finding pleasure.
Love is about finding the familiar, and our model for
love gets established in like the first three years of life.
(27:59):
And so I know you miss this person, but you know,
like you started off this conversation by saying I was
in an emotionally and verbally abusive relationship. So you started
off with your intellectual brain telling me what I'm supposed
to tell you, which is don't go back. But I
(28:20):
do want to see you get help from a licensed
therapist so that you don't choose, because that's the other thing.
Until you heal, you'll choose a similar person because that's
what love feels like to you. So you'll fall back
into the same kind of situation but with a different person,
and I don't want to see that happen to you. Mike,
thank you so much for calling. Okay, let me go
(28:42):
to social media if you want to call. The number
is one eight hundred five two zero one KFI. That's
one eight hundred five to zero one five three four.
All right. Here's a DM that came to me. Hey,
doctor Wendy, does lining up two to three first and
second dates in a week count as dating multiple people?
(29:05):
I'm assuming these two to three first and second dates
are with different people, right, I think once you get
to a third date, that's the time to start making decisions,
and definitely before sex. I guess I need a little
more information. I'm just looking into dating now after twenty
three years of marriage. Okay, I understand the question. Now,
(29:26):
So this person is asking, first of all, what's wrong
with dating multiple people? You actually got it right. If
you're not having sex with them, you can see as
many people as you want in the course of a week.
But I mean three dates a week is a lot. Okay,
don't you got to go work, go to the gym,
get some sleep. That's a lot. Two or three? I
mean yeah. So I'm just saying take it slow. I'm saying,
(29:52):
don't have sex with them, and as long as you're
not having sex with them, you can date them as
long as you want while you're making your decision. But
don't get cloudy, meaning don't fall victim to paradox of
choice where you're presented with so many dates and so
many well I like this one for this, but I
like this one for that, and I just can't really decide.
This is what our brain does when it's presented with
too much choice. It doesn't make a choice, and if
(30:13):
it does make a choice, it doesn't value that choice
very much. So just letting you know, go slow, don't
have sex till you're ready, and it's okay to date
a couple or three people at once. That's my feeling,
that's my permission, all right. When we come back, I'll
continue to answer your relationship questions live as well as
go to social media. The handle is at Dr Wendy
(30:33):
Walsh and the phone numbers one eight hundred and five
two zero one, five three four. You've been listening to
Doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear us live on
KFI Am six forty from seven to nine pm on
Sunday and anytime on demand on the iHeartRadio app.
Dr. Wendy Walsh on Demand News
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