Jesus Christ Show | Hour 2 - Forgiveness [07/07]

Forgiveness

Episode Transcript

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You're listening to KFI AM sixty ondemand. Neil, Welcome to the Jesus
Christ Show. Hello, Hi,thank you for taking my call. And
my question is about forgiveness. AndI find that intellectually, mentally, I

(00:24):
can forgive my parents, my family, my friends, my coworkers, my
neighbors. But in my heart,I'm heart of heart, and I would
like to know how to better forgive. And I know you teach you know
to forgive seventy times seven, andI realize that I would like to be

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able to forgive people around me,and not just intellectually, not just as
an intellectual concept, but in myheart, and have my heart be worshed
clean. I hope that's clear.Indeed, indeed it is clear now when

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you say things like seven times seventy, referring to Matthew eighteen, and you
say those words, you understand thatit's not a mathematical equation, right.
It's about using perfect numbers to explaina perfect concept, and that is to
forgive, always, yes and forever, and forgiveness. Really it stems from

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you because it's for you. It'snot for the person you're forgiving. If
you don't release these things you're theone that harbors them, You're the one
that sits on them, You're theone that goes through the pain. It
does nothing to them, absolutely,So what is the pain that's been caused
by these family members over the years. I'll give you a good example.

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Both of my parents are dead.In my head, I can forgive them
for offenses for things that were doneagainst me, But in my heart,
I still feel hard of heart.It's like I still have mental chatter like,
oh, my father did this tome, or my mother did this

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to me, that type of thing, And I know I shouldn't feel that,
And I would like to be clearemotionally with the people that I forgive,
so that I know that it's notjust an intellectual exercise, or as
you say, it's not just numericalsure, but ultimately things start that way.

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Yes, like any relationship, Whena relationship starts between a man and
woman, the initial contact is goingto be physical. It's gonna be appearance.
Right, You're gonna look at someone, You're gonna go they look nice
to me, or I like theway they look, or there's something about
them physically that appeals to me.But the relationship can't live on that that

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it lives more on the deeper level, that as you get to know one
another, and things like that,when you're going through any process, it's
going to be that way. Ecclesiasteseleven ten says, so remove grief and
anger from your heart and put awaypain from your body, because childhood and
the prime of life are fleeting.And this is trying to tell you in
conjunction with Paul saying, as achild, I spoke and acted like a

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child. As an adult, Ispeak and act like an adult. There
are things that happen to you whenyou're younger. There are things that are
going to be bruises and places ofpain as you grow. But throughout scripture
you find verses like these that say, hey, listen, you need to
remove these things and put them away, because if you hold on to them,

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they never have meaning, they neverhave purpose. You hold on to
them like luggage, and they slowyou down to the rest of your life,
that life which is fleeting. Soit's more about you than anyone else.
And unless there is something that youhave a problem with you and you
want to hold on to this painand this anger so that you will feel

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it, your body should be morethan willing intellectually, spiritually, emotionally to
give it up because it doesn't belongto you, It belongs to someone else.
So if someone did you wrong,give it up to them. Give
it up. It is not forgivingthem so that they are reconciled with you.

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It's you forgiving them so that you'renot burdened with the weight of all
the ugliness, sadness or anger.But it has to start intellectually. You
have to understand what that means.And then you have to not dwell on
it each day, and you needto find new things that are motivating and

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promote who you are each day,and not to be tied down or twisting
in the wind because of something someoneelse did to you. Yes, was
it the entirety of the family,Yes, it was, I think the
entirety of the family situation. Andnow I realize, years later, decades

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later, it's crazy for me tocarry this emotional burden. As you say,
you know, intellectually I can forgivemy family, I can forgive my
parents, But in my heart,that's when I realized I had a problem
that my heart was carrying. Asyou say, this burden, and boy,

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you can feel it. I mean, I can feel it sure,
and and you know, I mean, my parents are dead, so why
should I feel ill well toward them? As a very good example, many
offices, offenses against me by family, by friends, by neighbors, that

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type of thing. It's like Imake an effort to say, okay,
I forgive them for doing this,but in my heart, it's like I
have this mental chatter. It's like, why did I do this? Why?
You know, I still feel badabout this and you've never done anything
to hurt somebody? Yes, Iam, And why did you do it?

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I felt that, Well, that'sa great question. I felt righteous.
I felt that that they had doneme wrong, and particularly I would
use words that were inappropriate. Areyou a dark, evil person? Are

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you a mean spirited person? Okay, so you could make mistakes that hurt
people, that even come from pointsof anger or disgust or frustration or what
have you and them not really meananything in the long term. You can
feel bad about it, even andnot necessarily even bring it up to them,

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But feel bad about it, right, okay, so can they?
So can they? And I knowthat there are different levels of those things,
and without getting into detail, we'lljust look at it this way that
I want you to really really visualizeevery person that has done you wrong,
and I want you to mentally visualizethe size of the pain of that package.

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And you can imagine it a purse, you can imagine it a wallet,
you can imagine it a suitcase,a trunk, however big it is
in your mind. And I reallywant you to think about how much of
that you're carrying around and if youwant release on your heart, just as
an exercise for you to kind ofmake it tangible, you start processing that

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and how much of that you're carryingaround, and really why you're carrying it
around, and how it's not verydifferent from you say, well, why
did they do it? Probably notvery different from your reasoning. They felt
righteous in a certain certain situation.They felt like maybe they were wronged.

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The answer you gave could absolutely bethe answer they gave. And to take
that and to go in peace andto release those things because they are not
the one carrying them. You're theone carrying them. Forgiveness is one of

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those topics that comes up all thetime. We inevitably take a call on
forgiveness during the program because it's reallyat the heart of your walk. If
you are a person of faith inboth receiving and granting forgiveness, it has
to be. There are going tobe plenty of people that you wrong in

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life, and there are going tobe plenty of people that wrong you in
life. That's just the way lifeworks, and that's part of the process
of cleaning yourself up, being cleanedby God, purified, honed through the
process of making mistakes, and youwill hurt people, But really the act

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of forgiveness is not about the otherindividual. It's about you. Forgiveness is
most certainly a choice that you haveto make. There's no magic button or
anything like that. But it's aboutbeing obedient to the will of God more
than anything else. Colossians three pointthirteen says, bear with each other,

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forgive whatever grievances you may have againstone another. Forgive as the Lord forgave
you in the In the very languagethere, it's giving an example of God
saying this is how God does it, this is how you should do it.
Now, if you think you havea better way than God, I'd
love to hear it. But lettingsomething fester or boil deep within you is

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not going to be helpful, andthroughout scripture it points out by way of
comparison, what these problems can become. Luke six thirty seven says, do
not judge and you will not bejudged. Do not condemn and you will
not be condemned. Forgive and youwill be forgiven. So to be in

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that mindset where you accept that it'sthe will of God pointing you down that
path of forgiveness, don't you knowlook for all the excuses to stay mad
or stay angry. Are these thingsthat doesn't mean that you reconcile with everybody.
Some people aren't worth reconciling for you. God loves everyone, forgives everyone,

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but does not reconcile with everyone.Neither, should you. Clark,
Welcome to Jesus Christ Show. Hey, thank you Jesus. I kind of
had a little argument with my wife. Then I stopped going to church because
when I go to church, Ibecome very judgmental, and it's something that

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I work on and I just don'tunderstand it. Of the people around you,
of the service itself, of thepeople leading. What do you become
judgmental of? Kind of all ofthe above, I don't feel like I
belong in what sense? Well,what sets you apart? When you walk

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in and you say, you know, if you're standing in a room and
everybody wearing hats, then you say, well, everybody's wearing hats. I'm
not wearing a hat. I don'tSo what is it like that that makes
you feel like you don't belong?I go expecting or hoping for a blessing,
and typically I feel uncomfortable with thepeople around me, and I tend

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to pick apart the message and Ijust don't understand why that why I feel
that way, and it makes mevery uncomfortable. And I went to church
for many years. And my wifesays, well, you know, children
want to know why don't you goto church? And I go, I
don't feel good when I go tochurch. And so it's about you feeling

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good. Well, okay, feelingbad and bad is not always a bad
thing. I mean you, whenyou work out, you feel bad while
you're working out, but as goodresults. When you're studying for a test,
don't feel great, but as goodresults having surgery the same thing.
If you try to tie it toa direct emotion, I think you're missing

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the point of what you know,what it is. I don't know anybody
who sits there and fills up theirtank with gas, especially nowadays, and
gets excited about it. But ithas a purpose. You're filling yourself up,
and you know. I'll tell youa story that was passed along to
me about the daughter of a pastor, a very young girl at the time

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seven or younger, sitting in thefront row with her pastor father as they
watched a young lady sing for thechurch. Beautiful, beautiful girl gets up
there, strikingly attractive, an amazingvoice, and starts singing a song to

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God before the church, and partway through, the young girl sitting with
her pastor father leans over and says, Daddy, that girl's not singing for
Jesus. She's singing for the attentionof the people in the audience, to
which her father leaned over and said, how would you know that unless that's
what you would be doing if youwere up there. So, if you're

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judging people at your church and you'regetting judgmental about things that they're doing,
chances are it's based on who youare and not who they are. You
don't always want to go to workeither. You don't always want to get
up and go to work, butyou do it. You're being responsible and
you're being a good model to yourchildren. But when it comes to church,

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you think that you can just go. Eh, that's different. That's
out of character for you. Foreverything else you do, isn't it.
Well, don't you do things thatyou need to do because okay, whether
it feels good or not so spirituallyyou need to provide as well. But

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strangely, you know, it's likeyou coming to me and saying, you
know what, I go to workand I bust my and I do all
this, but really, you know, the kids get something out of it,
my wife gets something out of it, but there's very little money left
for me at the end. Well, it's not always about that. Maybe
that's not the blessing. Maybe you'relooking for the wrong blessing. And you're

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but to say, I don't wantto go, and then your wife and
your children go, and your childrenare asking about it, and you're going,
well, you know it, justyou know, Daddy would rather watch
a game on TV or be awayor just turn off for a while or
whatever. You don't do that withwork or with other things. And I'm
curious why you feel it's okay withchurch. Well, I like listening to
your show, and I don't feeljudgmental at all when I listen to your

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show, and I agree with mostof everything you say, which is wonderful.
But as my producer Neil says allthe time, it ain't church,
No, it's not. I maybeit's just the I haven't found the right
church. I don't. I don'tand that could very well be. It
could be as simple as that.But if you have, you tried more

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than one church? Yeah, doyou have the same feeling when you go
into these churches? Well, no, it's a little bit different. I
was raised Seventh Day Adventist. Mywife's a Catholic. She goes to I
guess it's more of a Baptist church. And I when I go to my
you know, the Adventist church,I'm really judgmental against the other people there,

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and probably because I was not thebest of Adventists. I you know,
bid alcohol, which is forbidden.When I go to the Catholic church,
I just don't get it at all. And when I go to the
Baptist church, I feel like theydon't have the right full message, and

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I judge more the the service alllegitimate, mind you. But to me
that just means well sort of.And the reason why I do that is
because you know, you're the braveone, Clark, You're the one that
called. And so this that's whatwe're gonna deal with. Am I going

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to tell you that every church outthere is perfect? Oh no, no,
this, this program itself was birthedfrom the frustration with the churches out
there in many ways. But thereare a lot of great churches as well.
And I just I you know,we don't have to spend hour after
hour together for me to look youin the face and say, you know
what, Clark, if you trythree different restaurants that you don't like,

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you're not gonna stop eating. Soit's really a it's a bizarre notion that
people do this, and they doit primarily with church and church alone.
They will give up on church soonerthan anything else in their life. There
are women that will continue to datejerks over and over again, men that
will date female jerks over and overagain and not stop dating or not stop

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looking and all these things. Butchurch, the slightest little thing turns them
off and boom they're out. Thatto me is more than just churches being
imperfect, which they are, andyou see the difference. You see how
everyone treats it differently than everything elseyou'll put up with. Well, my

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table is a little close to theto the restroom or to the kitchen.
But you know what, I likethe food or that people do that all
the time. But at church it'slike I don't like the pastor doesn't wear
a tie, boom gone, orI don't like the you know, the
way the pastor has the ear piecething and it makes them look like secret
service, boom gone. Whatever itis. The church has to live up

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to a standard in many ways scripturallythat is beyond anything else, and that's
between them and God. And thenthey have to live up to a whole
nother thing because they're, you know, dealing with perfection, the word of
God and his message, and yetthey're imperfect. So it's it's always delivering

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this wonderful thing on you know,kind of a dirty plate. And so
there's gonna be there is absolutely goingto be things that you don't want or
that you don't like. You tryand find the best fit possible, but
every church is gonna let you downsomewhere and you go into it with that
attitude and with your own Bible andyour own ability to check things and get

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what you can get out of it, but get fed somewhere. I'm I'm,
I'm. I love the fact thatyou enjoy the show. That's what
we're here for. But it can'tIt doesn't have that fellowship and camaraderie that
you do at a church or thatyou should have at a church. And

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the messages are different, and it'sa little more bite size here, and
it's these types of things, andand I think if you have a really
good church experience, it will bloweverything away. I just don't think you've
found a home. You sound alittle orphaned by the description of the churches
in the way you bounce by them. And you know, one was how

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you were raised and that was kindof thrown at you or given to you,
and then another one is what yourwife believed, and that was kind
of that didn't fit. And you'rekind of going from place to place.
Ony, don't you look for somethingthat you really like and see if you
can talk to the family as thespiritual leader of the household and see if

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they'll go along with going to youthere? Okay? At least to start.
I think I need to, youknow, pray for the blessing and
accept it. And like you said, if you're looking for the bad,
there's no shortage of that, No, that'll be out there. It's just
blessing is an odd thing. Itreally means abundance and certain you'll get an

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abundance of things. It's not alwaysthis kind of warm, cuddly feeling that
people think it is. If youpray for humility, you know what happens,
you get humiliated. That's the blessingbecause that's how you get humility.
You pray for patients and things startto take a lot slower in life because
that's how God builds patience. That'sthe blessing. So not every blessing is

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going to be walking on clouds orfeel you know, the blessing of a
hard day of work, the blessingof the you know, the pain of
birth. All these are blessings andthey come in different rappers and they're not
exactly always the boy, you know, Jesus loves you, long eyelashes,
pink hairdoo type blessings and you know, walking on clouds and all of that.

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So I fear that if that's whatyou're looking for, Clark. You're
not always going to find that,certainly, it's just not that's not the
package that blessings come in all thetime. But I think that that you
ah not, unlike our good friendproducer Neil, has issues finding that right
church or hearing that right tone,and a good portion of that's going to

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lie on your issues and not theissues of the church. And you have
to find out that they have limitationsjust as you do. And you find
one that has the least amount oflimitations or the limitations that seem to fit
or drive more with what you're lookingfor, and I think you'd be surprised.
But don't you know, be theleader of your home and don't let

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your wife and kids go to churchwithout you, because the message is loud
and clear to those kids and toyour wife, and that's not a fair
place to be. And you wouldsolve other problems too. God knows men
love to solve problems, right,So why aren't you helping and being a
part of solving this problem and findinga church that the entire family can get

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behind and enjoy. I know youcan do it. Mark, Welcome to
the Jesus Christ show Jesus. Howare you, I'm well, thank you.
How about yourself, I'm great.Okay. My question is I heard
this sermon a while ago about Judaskind of using Jesus to his own end

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and wanting intending Jesus for his ownpurposes, and I was kind of looking
about it, thinking about it withmy own life, and I think I'm
kind of using Christianity and this hurtsto my own end. I'm kind of
like wanting to put it in myterms and kind of gain something out of
it, and like, especially likemeeting meeting people that are like just so

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like it's hard to say, butvery nice and very like it's it's such
a different culture than the rest ofthe world that I'm just feel like I'm
reaping the benefit of it and notreally like like an empty Christianity almost words,
like my heart's not there, butI'm just going through the emotions.
Do you consider yourself to be aChristian? Yes, okay, so you're

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just kind of about the whole thingand you think, well, gotch,
I'm kind of using this for myown personal you know, being social,
having connections, enjoying the surroundings,but not really rooted in it. Yeah,
Well it feels like I, youknow, I pray, but I
have these empty prayers and I feellike I'm only pursuing God because I kind

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of see the benefits of it inthis world. Okay, but that's a
start. Yeah, I mean isit is it okay to start like that?
Where it's yeah, it's okay tostart like that? I think all
things do Anybody that tells you thatthey aren't physically attracted to their mate first
off, or lying, because that'sall you really know about them and the
So every relationship has different layers ofconnection as it gets more mature, and

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that's a healthy thing. It's alsoincredibly healthy that you even recognize it and
that you can see the difference inwhat you're going through. I would say
that, you know some people,it takes them all while to get up
to speed. I mean it couldbe years. They could be a Christian
and it's still not getting up tospeed. Where about are you in that
lineup? Mark? How long haveyou been a Christian? I really pursued

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it the last the last year.Okay, But I'm I'm trying to read
a lot and trying to I'm startedgoing to church consistently, but like I
was reading some Cus Lewis and hewas describing choice. First you obey God,
then you learn to love God,and then you learn to love people.
I mean, yes, it isit is it that. I mean,

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I'm trying to pursue it, butit just feels like, you know,
when what am I going to?Feel like it's a catching on and
I'm well, I mean, don'tget ahead of yourself. It's a process
and it sounds like you are livingthat process the way you should be.
Just don't worry about it. KfI am sixty on demand