November 1, 2024 • 64 mins
What was going on in Jon’s marriage to Bronwyn leading up to the separation in 1993?
Why did he suddenly take a flight from Sydney one Sunday afternoon to return to the house in Lennox Head when Bronwyn moved back in with her daughters? What did Bronwyn say and do when he turned up at the front door? What did they talk about when he went inside the house? Did he know that Bronwyn was getting legal advice about her rights to the property?
These questions and many more are asked in Jon’s only interview with the then Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor. Analysis of his answers throws up new leads as renowned forensic biologist Dr Kirsty Wright advises Hedley and Madi on how a possible crime scene should have been quarantined and examined.
Read more about this case and see photographs, maps, timelines and more at bronwynpodcast.com.
If you have information which may help solve this cold case, you can contact our team confidentially by emailing bronwyn@theaustralian.com.au
If you need support, Lifeline can be reached on 13 11 14.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian from John
(00:42):
and Bromlan's old house on the hillside in Lennox Head.
It is a fifteen minute drive to the nearest police
station in the town of Ballina. The coast Road is
the picturesque route south, passing John's favorite surfing beaches of
boulders and sharps. Heading west for a bridge crossing at
North Creek, John pulled up at River Street, so called
(01:07):
because of the Mighty Richmond River, a stone's throw from
the police building.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
He got here on a.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Wednesday morning in August nineteen ninety eight to be interviewed
by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor about the disappearance of Bromwin
five years and three months earlier. The videotape of that
interview remains under lock and key with New South Wales Police.
Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall, retrieved the official transcript of the
(01:36):
entire conversation for me. It is vitally important as a
record of the one and only time John Winfield's version
of events. His side of the story has been properly
documented by a senior police detective. Prior to August five,
nineteen ninety eight. His side of the story was known
(01:58):
to many, but they'd heard it from others too, so
there was both direct and hearsay knowledge. There were John's
versions of his trip back to Lennox Head on the
night of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, his conversations
with Bromwyn and the two girls in the house at
Sandstone Crescent before they were put to bed, His story
(02:21):
about Bromwyn having said she wanted a break from the
children for a few days. The phone calls, he says
Bromwyn made from the bedroom that night. The car, he
says he heard, pull up outside the house on Sandstone
Crescent soon afterwards to collect her, his explanation for his hasty.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Departure from the house that night.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Then a drive of ten hours or so south on
the Old Pacific Highway with Crystal and Lauren and the
pet dog until their arrival the next morning in Sydney.
All of these things were known to Bromwan's friends and family,
but they were told and retold in dribs and drabs
(03:04):
important facts were not known at all. For example, John's
sudden arrival at his former wife's home in the Southerland
shire of Sydney on the morning of the drive from
Lennox Head, and the plea he made to that woman's
mother in law, whom he had never met, to look
after the girls. As John said, he had an important
(03:25):
job to do.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
My daughter in law, Jenny was out and I was
not sure where Brad was.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
In episode four, a voice actor for Joan Mason read
parts of her police statement.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I answered the door and I saw a man who
introduced himself as Winfield. I don't remember his first name,
but I recalled. He told me that he had been
Jenny's first husband. I saw that he had two young
girls with him. I remember both these young girls were
dressed in pajamas.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I remember this man.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Winfield asked me could he leave the two girls. He
was in Sydney to do a big job. He said
something about being in the building game and he had
to go and see someone about a job. He said
that he had been driving all night. He said he
needed to leave the children with someone. I recall telling
him that he could leave the kids there and I
would tell Jenny when she came home. He left the
(04:19):
children with me and I looked after them until Jenny
arrived back home.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Those details would only come to light in the weeks
after John's interview at the Ballana Police Station on August five,
nineteen ninety eight, as Detective Sergeant Glen Taylor tracked down
more and more people to talk to. Andy Reid's wife,
Michelle had made notes on different pieces of paper over
(04:45):
the five years, notes of what she had been told
by John and what she had been told by others
who talked to John, But nobody had written all of
John's words down until Glenn Taylor asked John to come
to the police station four normal interview.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
The interview has commenced at eight fifty two AM. For
the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state
their full name? Arm Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Detective Senior Constable Wayne Temby introduced himself, and John followed.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Suit Jonathan Winfield.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
The name Wayne Temby will be familiar to listeners back
in nineteen ninety three, when it was the detective Sergeant
Graham Diskins's job to investigate Bromman's disappearance. Wayne Temby was
a more junior officer on the case. He answered to Discan.
The two investigations Detective Discins then Detective Taylor's, were starkly different.
(05:47):
Whereas no statements were taken from anyone in nineteen ninety three,
when Discin was running the investigation, Glenn Taylor was determined
to interview as many people as he could find, get
their statements on the record, and put them into a
brief of evidence.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Do you agree, mister Winfield, that there are no other
persons present in the interview room other than the people
that have just introduced themselves?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Yes? I do.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And do you agree that the only door to this
interview room is directly to your left, which is in
a closed position. Now, yeah, mister Winfield. As I've already
explained to you, Detective Temby and I are making inquiries
in relation to the disappearance of your wife, Browan Joey
(06:37):
Winfield on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety
three from Lennixead. We're going to ask you some further
questions about this matter. These questions and any answers that
you care to give to those questions will be recorded electronically,
both on video and audio. Cassette tapes as the interview
(07:00):
takes place. Do you understand that? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
In this episode, which follows the revelations in the two
subscriber only episodes of eleven and twelve, you are going
to hear John Winfield in his own words. You are
not hearing John's voice. We've got a voice actor for this,
but you are hearing Glenn Taylor's distinctive voice for this
(07:27):
podcast series. Glenn agreed to read from the transcript of
the interview that he did with John, but first, here's
Glenn at his home in Ballina in March twenty twenty one.
I was meeting the former homicide detective for the first time.
Let's go back to the interview that you did with
(07:48):
Jonathan Winfield. There must have been a bit of anticipation,
on a bit of build up, and you go into
that and how did his demeanor striking concerned that the
evidence have a week later to.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Lead to chargers. We believe he should put him on
electronic We called it HEAVI you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
He was cooperative and came to the interview with you
and detected timby voluntarily es. I asked him about the
pros and cons of interviewing the person of interest, a
man whom Glenn regarded as a clear and present suspect
ahead of interviews of everyone else. Remember when Glenn Taylor
(08:34):
interviewed John, it was August nineteen ninety eight. Lauren and
Crystal were ten and fifteen, and John was no longer
in contact with Bromwan's brother Andy Reid, nor with Bromwin's
sisters Kim Marshall and Melissa Reid. John had stopped talking
to Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid. The families were estranged. Bromwin's
(08:58):
loved ones were deep suspicious of John. In the interview,
are you looking at, for example, a folder that is
in front of you, a long list of questions that
you prepared?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Of what we did. We certainly went over the movements
of himself when he arrived back at the house and
what was discussed, and he again a Lexid that she
was seen this mysterious fan call and leaving the house
and not saying where she's going already ing and then
why he would suddenly just make a decision to take
(09:34):
the key, King still in there, jamas put in the car,
are they in your clothes? And then God in the
family car that she was sitting positional back to Sydney.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
The timeline of the investigation by Glenn Taylor shows that
Jonathan Winfield was the first cab off the rank, the
first person to be formally interviewed.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I think he's still wanted to project in the interview
that he was concerned for her, and then he had
nothing to hide, he'd done nothing wrong. We tried not
to lead in his stay and untain and when you
were sitting there opposite.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Him in the media like that, which is being electronically recorded,
as you're getting the answers and hearing his explanations for
certain things that you might have found.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Suspicious, but you're keeping an open mind.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Were you being persuaded that perhaps this wasn't suspicious, that
she had just started a new life.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Where would she go, how would she fund herself to
do these things? Loan's ever seen us since or none
of her bank accounts had ever been touched, and she's
never attempted to make contact with the kids. We went
right through everything that he allegies happened about his marriage
and going down to Sydney to do work, and then
(10:55):
finding out that prominent move back into the family own.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Did you if I any people who were antagonistic or
potentially enemies of bronwin who may have caused her harm.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Nay not. Why I hope he talks to me. You
never know, Jonathan Winfield, he was never formally Indian. Back
in the addition with mister Gash he has spoken didn't
but he was never formally anyviewed by a WI of
electronic recording or eveything statement taken from him. But he
will have to agree to come in and talk to
(11:30):
you all. Now, No, he didn't. But he's saying that
she just walked down in the family homeland. She's just
a missing person now, and that she's left the home
that have her own lanes. It would likely make it
more suspicious if you said, no on, I'm not going
to participate in any Indian because he's always wanted to
(11:53):
come across that she left the home that night. Never
did he send again and how to strike you in
that interview, I believe he wanted to put himself across
as wanting to assist the police. He didn't ever indicate
he wanted to be leading he represented.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Now let's return to the nineteen ninety eight police interview
with John Winfield.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I'm just going to read this onto the record here,
and if you understand it, I'll just get you to
acknowledge that the statement made by you accurately sets out
the evidence which you will be prepared, if necessary, to
give in court as a witness. The statement is true
to the best of your knowledge and belief, and you
(13:01):
make it knowing that if it is tended in evidence,
you shall be liable to prosecution if you are rawfully
stated in it anything which you know to be false
or do not believe to be true. Do you give
an undertaking to tell the truth?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
In his interview, Yeah, Yeah, John confirmed that he was
still living at the house in Sandstone Crescent with Lauren
and Crystal.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
The experienced bricklayer said he was not working.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Do you agree that prior to the commencement of this
interview I told you that I wanted to have a
conversation with you about the disappearance of your wife at
Lennox Head on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen
ninety three. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
John answered the early questions with what, in my view
reads like an offhand or somewhat disinterested tone. It seems
that Glenn was trying to build rapport, gently rolling the
arm over with a series of easy questions at the start,
When were they married, What was Bromwin's surname before they
(14:11):
were wed?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Where did they live when.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
They first went to Lenox Head from the Qunella Shire?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
When was Lauren born? He wanted John to get comfortable.
Can you give us any names that she used to
associate closely with in the early nineteen nineties? Close friends.
Speaker 6 (14:32):
Denise Barnard, probably the next door neighbor, Debbie Nolan.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Do you know where Denise? I haven't seen. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
I see Denisa around town occasionally talk to her, but
I don't know where she's living, either Ballino or lennox Head.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I have talked to Denise about her limited contact with
John after Bromin disappeared. Have you formed view about whether
he did murder Roman?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (15:04):
I have.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Do you know when you formed a view like that? Right?
Speaker 7 (15:09):
But then I've always had that view.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Did you effectively cut tires with John back then because
of that view?
Speaker 7 (15:17):
Yes, not that he would have ever made an effort
to be in contact with anyone.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Really, He's not that sort of person. He would have
been happy.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
I think once it all died down a little bit,
when Lauren was at school, if it was ever in
the paper Missing Person's Week Roman would appear, she'd.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Be removed from school.
Speaker 7 (15:36):
She wouldn't be there, So he's just kept her protected
all that time as well. High school, she was never
there when anything was in the paper. I could never
approach her say remember me, I mean she was little.
Maybe she remembers me.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (15:51):
When I see her now, she's identical to a mom
from behind.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Do you ever talk to her?
Speaker 7 (16:00):
I didn't ever want to. I don't know, bring it
up and pass my thoughts on to her, because obviously
she still believes her dad. And what would you say,
what haven't you mummy? I mean no, I've just did
never go there, and we were never encouraged to see
(16:21):
her after Bromwin disappeared by John. John just shielded those
kids and nobody saw them. And he's very private.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
I guess it's possible to look at that with an
understanding that he doesn't want his children to be reminded
by rumormongers.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Now back to the nineteen ninety eight interview by Glenn
Taylor of John Winfield.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Okay, the next person just said was a lady called.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Nolan, was it, Yeah, Debbie Nolan. Actually her name is
really Debbie Hall. She's really my next door neighbor.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Deb was one of the first people to contact me
about doing a podcast investigation into Bromwin's suspected murder. You
first heard her in the earliest episodes, and deb stays
in touch, ringing and emailing me with information that she
hears around the community of Lennox Head.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And I thought, you know what, you've got to get
away from this guy. If you call that miserable and
he's controlling.
Speaker 8 (17:26):
And I did used to say to her from when,
you know, when she'd had first crying sessions.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
About out here, and I say, Brown, you can't live
like this. You've got to get away from him. Oh
but I've got nowhere to go, and I'll have no
money and never And that went on for a while.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
Apart from that, Oh wait a minute, there's another girl.
I know someone spoke to her, but I can't even
remember her second name. I know Graham spoke to her.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
The Graham that John is referring to is the then
detective Sergeant Graham Disco and John was speaking about the
woman that we are calling Joan. She has been concerned
about her real name being published. The first time you
heard her was in episode two. I'm not going to
(18:15):
identify you by your name in this podcast, but your
voice will be heard.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, yeah, are you okay with that?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And I understand that you've got personal reasons? Where would
you like to start talking about your friend Brongwa.
Speaker 6 (18:33):
She loves to kill so that there's no way she
willingly go off and leave her kids.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Okay, Okay, We're going to move on a little bit now.
Between nineteen ninety and say early nineteen ninety three, Yeah,
what was happening in your family life?
Speaker 6 (18:55):
Oh well, we moved in the house in January nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
My mother died.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
In September nineteen ninety, bronwin A was pregnant again. She
had an abortion in I can't remember if that was
ninety one or something, either ninety or ninety one, I
just can't remember. I mean, we were going through a
pretty tough time. I mean, like when mom died, I
(19:23):
took it pretty tough, and sort of she got pregnant,
which wasn't planned, and we decided, you know, we weren't
going to have any more kids because at that stage,
you know, we had three kids really living with us.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We had my eldest.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Daughter, Jody Glenn Taylor. Circled back to the abortion.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
How did you How did Bromin feel about that? I
don't know. I sort of, like I said, my mom
died that year.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
I was really close to my mom, and I was
probably I don't know, I mean took it.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
See, mum died in September nineteen ninety. Yes, that was
around about the time that she got pregnant. I think
by memory, around about that time, alright, and it was
just sort of too much for us to cope with.
So we talked about it. We had three kids at
that time and that was enough.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Was there a point in time somewhere between say, Christmas
in nineteen ninety two in March from ninety three where
your marriage started to deteriorate?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, Yeah, that's what's happened.
Speaker 6 (20:35):
That's what happened, you know, sort of sort of virtually
as soon as Lauren got off to school, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Can you tell us about that all? Well? She reckons,
she reckons.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
She told me just before we separated that she had
a nervous breakdown in the in the January of nineteen
ninety three. All right, and I said to her, you know,
what's a nervous breakdown? I've heard of it, but can
you tell me what it is? You know, I sort
of didn't understand, but she reckoned. She had a nervous breakdown,
(21:08):
and she went to see the doctor in Lennox. I
don't know if it was doctor Watson or doctor Hughes.
I don't know which one it was, but she went
to one in Lennox and apparently she was being treated
for depression, you know, like a nervous breakdown. Now, whether
that's true or not, I don't know, but that's what
she told me.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
You know, where did you have these discussions?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
You know what It's like you sort of round the
house and you're sort of talking, and you know, what's
going on with our marriage, that sort of this sort
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Did this go over some weeks?
Speaker 6 (21:45):
Well, Lauren went off to school on what say, the
first of February and ninety three, I think whatever day
school started she started. Then she was still working in
that job at the time, and virtually from that moment
that was when she said to me, one of these days,
I'm going to move out. I drove Lauren and Bronwin
(22:05):
down to the school because I had a big day
sort of starting up at school, and you know, things
weren't sort of things were a bit funny, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I think I.
Speaker 6 (22:16):
Drove Lauren to school every day for the first week,
you know, with her mum. And I can remember her
going her mum walking to school with her and I said, gee,
that took a long time, you know, because she was
in therefore, it was probably fifteen minutes or so. And
she said she came back and said, I just had
(22:38):
to tell the teacher that we're separating.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
What did you feel about that?
Speaker 6 (22:44):
I was naturally surprised, you know, I mean, fair enough.
I meant we weren't getting on particularly well. But I mean, geez,
plenty of marriages go through funny times. I mean, we
were never sort of fighting in front of the kids,
sort of hitting each other or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
You know.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
See what what's been suggested to me, and I don't
know whether it's right, is when she had this bit
of a job she had, it was virtually the first
job she really had where she had money to herself,
because she kept all the money herself, you know, and
she got that little bit of independence. You know, it's
been suggested to me sort of went to her head
(23:26):
with that little bit of independence. She had her own money,
and sort of she was off, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
The detective asked John whether Bromwin was taking any medication
at the time.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, that's like I said.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
She said to me that she'd been treated for a
nervous breakdown in January nineteen ninety three by one of
the doctors in Lenox, you know, but I never saw
her take any medication.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Later, Glenn Taylor would go to see the doctors Bromwin
was known to have consulted, and nobody had any record
or recollection of treatment of roman for a nervous breakdown.
Brommin's brother Andy is adamant that he would have been
told by his sister if she had suffered a mental
or nervous breakdown. He is sure that John's claim is false.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Leading up to this separation, what did she want you
to do? Did she want you to sleep in another
room or move out of the house.
Speaker 6 (24:27):
No, No, we slept No, I mean we've slept in
the same bed. I mean it's sort of funny, like
her moods would change on a daily basis. She's not
what you'd call a bad tempered, sort of aggressive sort
of person, but she's sort of pretty stubborn. I'm probably
more the bad tempered one, you know. I shoot off
(24:49):
a lot of steam. We were getting along fine, and
then sort of she'd sort of say, all of a sudden,
there's problems in our marriage again.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
I mean, I told Graham, Graham, you're talking about detective Sergeant.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
I told Graham, like when she was working in that shop,
I told you about she'd been working with this bloke
in there called.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I don't know his name. All I know is.
Speaker 6 (25:14):
His name's Jacko, right, And apparently from what her girlfriends
had told me that she'd sort of sort of fallen
for this Jacko bloke, you know. And I think Graham
contacted him at Barrera. I'm not one hundred percent, but
I know someone told me his mother lives at Barrera
in Sydney. So anyway, apparently while she was still living
(25:38):
with me, she was all about, he's got a motorbike
and he was picking her up and sort of taking
her for rides up to Byron Bay and back on
the motorbike.
Speaker 7 (25:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
But this is all I never saw it for myself.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
I mean, she'd actually told me that, you know, but
that was while she was working in that shop, Eden's
Takeaway and she was working with this jack guy.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Did you ever see this Jacko? Yeah? I know him. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
What did he look like a sort of tall guy
with black curly hair, heavy sort of what was he
doing for John?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
He was working in the takeaway shop, he was in
the same place. Yeah, yeah, and he and you said
he had a motor sockle.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Yeah, well, she told me they used to go riding
up to Byron Bay and stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
You know. In episode three, you heard Broman's brother Andy Reid,
recalling John's agitation that his estranged wife was hanging out
with Gary Jackson and had supposedly been seen on Jacko's motorbike.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
All of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh, she's golla
there and around town.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
She's in another relationship with some bloke. She's on the
back of a motorbike. He was very flustered about that.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
He didn't handle that well because Bromwold remain say John's
upparked up the road at Byron Street after the spot
after John had rung and obviously there must have been
some confrontation because had rung me to say I was
accusing me of other relationship.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
My colleague and friend Dave Murray asked Jacko about this.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Did you ride a motorbike back then? Gary? Yeah, I
used to be a bike by that. Okay, do you
remember if you ever gave Bromwin a lift on a motorbike?
I'm going to give.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Glenn Taylor pressed John on whether Bromwin had money to
herself A sure.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:35):
I never saw the account, But I actually think Graham
was the one that told me about this.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Excuse me. I think it was still in her maiden name.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
It was John's fourth familiar mention of Graham Graham discan.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Okay, we'll just move on a little bit now. I
think the records indicate that you separated some time in
March of nineteen ninety three, formally separated. Yeah, yeah, Can
you tell us about what happened, how the separation actually
came about on the day. I know the basics, but.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Okay, Well, she was living at she was living at
Byron Street forty forty something. She suddenly decided to live
out in the family house. Yeah, and she'd been living therefore.
I honestly can't remember. Maybe maybe a couple months. I
don't know, I can't remember. She moved out and took
(28:32):
the kids with her, and I stayed in the house.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So she moved out on her own accord. What did
she take with her as.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
Much as she wanted. She virtually took as much as
she wanted. What about furniture, Well, took lounges, I remember.
I think she took the I know she took the
bed because I was sleeping on the floor there on
the single mattress.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Virtually she took the lot.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
According to John, the move was a surprise. He said
he was driving with Bromwin after dropping Lauren at school
when she told him that she'd called a removalist.
Speaker 6 (29:09):
And then all of a sudden, these removalists turn up.
I was told that morning that she was moving out.
I gave her a check for the bond money because
she didn't have any money, so she said, but oh,
you know, I think it was for six or seven
hundred bucks. I think I can't remember now, because apparently
she told me she had no money. I couldn't stop her,
(29:32):
you know, so the kids had to have a place
to live, So I gave her money for the bond,
and I made it out to the lady, the landlord
down there, Shirley Taylor. But later on I found out
that she did have money, because Graham told me she
had a grand in the bank, loaded up and off
she went.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Was that fairly amicable, was it?
Speaker 6 (29:56):
I remember she told the kids the night before that
she was going to move out, and I just sort
of shrugged it off. I says, that's just one of
her sort of you know statements again, you know. And
then sure enough, like that morning I saw her, she said,
the removaluss is coming at two o'clock.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
John wasn't working as a bricklayer when Bromwin told him
she was leaving him. He had injured his neck in
January nineteen ninety three. John told the detective that his
neck was in a brace for almost ten weeks.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
After she moved out to the flat in Byron Street.
How long did you stay in the house in Sandstein
Crescent before you went to Sydney. Oh.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
I went to Sydney virtually just to work, just a
change of environment. I might have been there from either
two to four weeks. I really can't remember. I'd have
to look it up.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
It is not clear from the interview whether John's comment
about having been there for two to four weeks is
a reference to how long he stayed alone at Sandstone
Crescent after Bromin had moved out in late March, or
whether it is a reference to how long he stayed
in Sydney while working for Glenn Webster on the build
of his house in Illawong in the Shire. In Glenn
(31:18):
Webster's statement to police, he specifically recalls working with John
on the Anzac Day public holiday in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
April twenty five.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
He confirmed that his return to the house on the
Sunday night in May was his first visit back from Sydney.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
So you lived with Sydney to work, Yeah, to work,
and then the next contact you had with your wife
would have been the night she the night she actually
jumped in the car. Yeah, that's it when missing. Yeah,
well did you communicate with your wife just say that
you were coming back up to Lennox Head follow.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
I had occasionally had phone calls. I remember one particular
phone call you. I used to ring her occasionally. I
don't remember if it was once a week or once
every two weeks. At that stage she was after me
to put some sort of one hundred and twenty five
bucks or something a month into Lauren's account, which I
(32:16):
was sort of negotiating with her to do like a
child support sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
John recalled a conversation he had on the telephone with
Bromwin when she was living in the flat on Byron
Street and she had a visitor, her good friend and
former neighbor, deb Hall.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
This Debbie, Debbie Hall at the time, was visiting her
just for a cup of tea or something, you know,
and all of a sudden, she just exploded at me
on the phone, you know, sort of went off for
no reason, just to sort of make some sort of
make me out to be, you know, a monster to
this Debbie. You know, because this Debbie mentioned to me,
(32:57):
you know, I don't know why she went off at
you on the phone that day, because there's no reason too.
And then later on they had lunch together and apparently
she said to Debbie Hall something about being a really
good actress or something.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
This was how long before the sixteenth of May.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
I was still in Sydney, I don't know. Could have
been two weeks before, could have been a month before.
I used to ring up from time to time just
to see how the kids were and stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Whilst you were in Sydney. Yeah. And when you were
communicating with her, did she give you any demands of
that propertysettlement? No, not at all. Anything about going that
she wanted to move back into the family home.
Speaker 6 (33:44):
No, No, I never said anything about it at all.
That's why it was such a shock when all of
a sudden she rang well, I rang her up.
Speaker 9 (33:53):
And.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
She'd moved out of wherever she was at forty two
and she was back in the fair home. You know,
I think it was the sixteenth. It was a Saturday
or Sunday, wasn't it? Because I came back on the
Sunday and she left on the Sunday night about midnight.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (34:13):
There are some interesting disclosures in this answer from John.
He was He says shocked that Bromwin had moved back
into the family home, but it seems he was not
shocked when she moved straight back out again, and his
timing is off too. He is saying that she left
(34:34):
on the Sunday night about midnight. Previously, however, he told
Detective Discan and Bromwin's friends and family that it was
about nine nine thirty pm.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Up to that point. Had you been contacted by a
solicitor or had any documents served upon you? No about
family law?
Speaker 6 (34:57):
No, no, just let me think. Well, she didn't know
my address in Sydney, so I couldn't have had any
Now I'm sure I didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Are you aware that she was in contact with a
within he solicitous.
Speaker 6 (35:11):
Well only through what Graham told me. Graham told me
that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony Manering,
and I think she'd spoken to a guy Byron Bay
called I can't remember his name now. And later I
found out that she's spoken to and I told Graham this.
I found out from a neighbor of mine that she'd
(35:33):
spoken to a guy from Mulin Bimbi or Ocean Shaw's Way.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
The solicitors to whom John is referring to here, Tony
Mannering and Graham Holland, were consulted by Bromman about her
legal rights, but in the end she decided to retain
Chris mcdebittt, who was based in Lismore. And you've previously
heard that Broman telephoned Chris mcdebott at his home on
(35:58):
the Sunday afternoon because of her concern about John's imminent
arrival at the house. Romman had made an appointment to
see Chris mcdebitt in his Lismore office on the Monday
morning for further legal advice, but she neither canceled nor
turned up, and he never heard from her again. In
(36:20):
my view, this was one of the most concerning and
early signs of possible foul play, and Graham Diskin knew
about it within a couple of weeks of Roman's disappearance,
but no statement was taken from the solicitor or anyone
back in nineteen ninety three. There is another striking feature
(36:41):
for police. John really should have been a person of
interest in his estranged wife's disappearance at a very early stage. Instead,
it is as if John has the inside running on
the police investigation. By the detectives in nineteen ninety three,
John had gleaned a lot of potentially significant information, and
(37:02):
he said he was told all of it by Graham Discan,
Broman's bank account balance, Bromman's legal representation, including Tony Mannering,
and chrismcdebitt. Broman's telephone call to chrismcdebitt on the Sunday afternoon.
They're just some of the things that John volunteered. He
had been told by Graham discin. Sometimes detectives deliberately share
(37:27):
information with a person of interest or plant information for
the suspect to find. And it's a good strategy as
it can prompt panicky reactions and conversations when telephones are
being bugged and listening devices are in houses and cars.
But none of that was occurring with John in nineteen
ninety three. Police were unaware while they were sharing key
(37:51):
intelligence from their own investigation that the person soaking it
up might have been the killer.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
For detectives seen you comfortable.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Wayne Temby, who was in the interview room at Ballina
Police station with Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, parts
of this must have felt like deja vous. It would
be interesting to know now how Temby, who is long retired,
reflects on the first and the second police investigation. He
(38:22):
has declined to comment for this podcast series. As Glen
Taylor took a breather, Detective Temby chimed in, how did
you become aware when you were in Sydney that she
moved out of the flat?
Speaker 6 (38:37):
I rang up and she wasn't there? So I rang
the family home, all right, and she answered the phone,
and that was what a few days before. You come
up on the day before, I think the day before,
I see, And what did you say to her? Oh,
I can't remember. I said, just surprise she was back
(38:58):
in the family home. You know, I just sort of
shut up to see what was going on. I mean,
she had keys. She always had a key to the
family home anyway, you know. I mean she, her and
I were the only two people bar my father, are
the only ones who have got a key to the
family home.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Actually the house is deadlocked.
Speaker 6 (39:22):
Actually, I think I put a deadlock, and I think
from memory she got a locksmith in to get rid
of the deadlock.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I think from memory.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You heard from Bromwin's neighbors, Chris and Lloyd Hargrave about it.
In episode three.
Speaker 10 (39:38):
She called out to me from our yard on her
side of the house. When I approached Bromwin, she asked
me if I had a key, and I told her
I didn't. She said that she couldn't get into the
house because John had changed all the locks. She was
very upset and crying and said that John had threatened
to take the children from her. The same as he
(40:00):
he had done to his first wife and taken Jodie
from her.
Speaker 11 (40:04):
Bromman said that she was unable to get into the
house and she appeared to be very upset at the time.
It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and
I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going
to take the children from her. It was not long
after this that the locksmith arrived, and I'm aware that
(40:24):
Bronman moved back into the house.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Bromwin's neighbors were interviewed by Glenn Taylor on September twelve,
nineteen ninety eight, five weeks after John's interview.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
When you made a rageous to come back up on
the sixth Street of May, Yeah, Had you communicated to
her that you were coming? Had you told her? I
might have said, yeah, I'm coming home, Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
John confirmed that Bromwin had kept control of the family
car while he was away in Sydney until the Sunday night,
and she disappeared and he left in the Ford Falcon
with the girls. Glenn Taylor quiz John about his arrival
into Banana on that fateful night.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
He was dark.
Speaker 6 (41:12):
I don't know six o'clock, say, I came straight here
to the police station. See what was your intention to
come to the police station, because I was going back
there I saw it. Didn't want any shit. I just
wanted to cover myself.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Really.
Speaker 6 (41:27):
I told the guy downstairs what had happened. I, you know,
a family breakup, all this sort of business. She moved out,
she moved back into the family home. I'm just going
to go back there now. And you know, it was
just sort of like I didn't want her ringing up
and saying, you know, he's here bashing me, sort of
stuff like that, you know, So I sort of came
(41:51):
to the police first. I told him what I was
going to do, and he said, okay. I saw him
take a note of it and went.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Had there been any complaints no from your wife about
physical contact between yourself and her up to that point? No?
Speaker 6 (42:08):
No, Look, the law is always on the side of
the woman, isn't it. Really, So I just sort of
covered myself. I thought, well, when I come up, I thought, well,
you know, I don't want to sort of go in
there and sort of her start screaming and stuff like that.
So I didn't know what I was going to expect.
When I got there, because you know, I just didn't know.
(42:31):
So I just came in and saw the desk sergeant downstairs,
and I can't remember what his name was actually, but
I spoke to him for probably fifteen minutes, you know,
and I told him the story and I told him
where I was going, and that was it.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
In the police internal running sheet which logged events in
the nineteen ninety three investigation by Graham Diskin, there is
an entry and it was made by the then Constable
Julie Donovan. The entry states that on May thirty of
that year, Constable Donovan.
Speaker 10 (43:27):
Verified from Sergeant heart To that conversation did take place
in relation to rights of moving back into house.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
John described the arrangements that were made for his return
to Lenox. There was the telephone call to get a
lift from the airport with John Watson, the father of
a girl called Natalie, one of Jody's friends when they
were at school together.
Speaker 6 (43:50):
I think I rang him, or Jody might have rung
him and said can you pick that up at the airport?
Because I came back with a surfboard, see at a
bit of Love. Everything I took to Sydney, I brought
virtually brought back with me, you.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Know, And that's another interesting disclosure. In my view, it
strongly suggests that John Winfield was intending to stay in
Lennox for a while. There's no indication in that answer
that he intended to leave again that same night to
drive all the way back to Sydney. John described the
(44:26):
short drive on Sunday evening to the house of Becky Maguire,
another of Jodie's friends from school.
Speaker 6 (44:34):
Because I remember the sergeant downstairs said, you know, you're
better off to have someone with you.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Did you say one of Jade's friends.
Speaker 6 (44:43):
Yeah, one of JD's friends, Becky, who's Jody, Jadie's my daughter.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I just want to pause to make another point here.
While being cross examined by senior lawyers during trial proceedings
over the murder of Christal's AND's wife, Lynn, I realized
that my questioners didn't know some things which in my view,
they ought to have been aware of before asking me.
(45:10):
It won't be true for everyone, but I grew in
confidence in the witness box when my question has made
an error or demonstrated that they were not across some
of the more obvious details. Now, it might have been
a deliberate play by Glen Taylor asking the person of
interest who is Jody? And it's possible the season detective
(45:34):
wanted John to think that the cops knew little when
they were really lulling John into a false sense of security.
If it wasn't deliberate, if Glen Taylor did not know
where Jody fitted into the picture in that first interview,
then in my view, it's not best practice.
Speaker 6 (45:53):
Jody's my daughter, right, but she's been out of the
family home for years now.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
So you arrived at the only can you tell us
what happened when you were right?
Speaker 6 (46:04):
Yeah, Well, Becky came to the door with me and
we knocked on the door and then and the door opened.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
So once the door was open, I walked in.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
John repeated the advice that he said he received five
years earlier from the police sergeant on the front desk
of the same police station in which he was sitting
opposite Glenn Taylor and Wayne Temby.
Speaker 6 (46:27):
Don't sort of barge in, knock on the door and
sort of walk into the family home. Don't break into
the family home. That's what he said to me. So
I took his advice.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Did bron win in for the door.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
Yeah, came straight to the door, opened the door and
I walked straight in. So once I was right in
the door, I said, oh, thanks, beck see you later,
and she just off she went.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
There is a discrepancy here. Becky Maguire had to get
home from Sandstone Crescent. She had been picked up at
her house by John Watson and John Winfield after they
left the police station. Becky's statement to police, which was
taken five weeks after John's interview, is rich with detail.
(47:15):
This is what Becky said happened from the time John
Watson stopped outside the house in Sandstone Crescent to let
John Winfield and Becky get out of the car.
Speaker 12 (47:27):
John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front
of the house and John knocked on the door. The
door opened and Bronwyn and the children were standing at
the door. I can't recall what she was going on about.
She used to babble on all the time. Bronwin walked
back into the house towards the kitchen, and John gave
the girls a cuddle, and I saw that Lauren was crying.
(47:48):
I saw two suitcases inside the doorway, and John picked
them up and put them in the car. John must
have had a set of keys to the car, because
we then got into the car and he drove me home.
I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing at the
window inside the house watching as we reversed out of
the driveway. John didn't go inside the house at all
(48:08):
while I was in the house with him.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Well, we were driving back to my house.
Speaker 12 (48:12):
John thanked me for coming with him and told me
he was sorry for getting me involved.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Perhaps John Winfield forgot that he drove Becky home. John
Watson's statement makes it clear that he drove away alone,
without Becky or John Winfield.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
So Rowin invited you in to come in.
Speaker 6 (48:34):
She didn't say come in. I just walked in. But
there was no objection, no objection at all. I mean
both the kids came and gave me a hug straight away.
Becky just stood at the front door. I just said, oh,
thanks beck and John Watson he drove Becky home.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, well, yeah, John was waiting out the front. I
know it's a long time ago, but do you have
any recollection what bronwin was wearing?
Speaker 6 (49:02):
I told Graham, but gee, I can't remember. I know,
I think I remember saying to him that she was
wearing the same clothes that she was wearing at work
that day. Right, had all the furniture that she'd taken before, Yeah,
being moved back in there. Yeah everything, not everything, A
(49:24):
lot a lot of it, probably ninety percent. I suppose
the rest was it was still down at the unit. Right,
She left it in the unit, and the landlord had
moved it out of the unit and put it put
in a garage for storage, Right, I see. And then
I had to go down and get it after a
while because she wouldn't give it to me. But then
(49:45):
after a while she gave it to me because there
was still rent going on the place.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
You know. Okay, what happened? Can you take us through?
Speaker 4 (49:52):
Now?
Speaker 2 (49:52):
What happened from the time you arrived over the next
few hours, John described having sat down in the dining
room with a cup of tea. He said, Lauren was
sitting happily on his lap. She hadn't seen her dad
for weeks. That was virtually it.
Speaker 6 (50:11):
And then by that time it must have been it
was after dinner because the kids at eden.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
What was your wife, Demanda like, sorry, what was she like?
What was her attitude to you?
Speaker 6 (50:26):
I don't know. We didn't talk that much. I suppose
she was surprised that I sort of was there, you
know that I rang up the day before from Sydney
and then all of a sudden I was on the doorstep,
you know. So I suppose she was a bit taken aback,
But I mean she didn't really let on that she
was taken aback. I mean, she wasn't hostile or anything
(50:49):
like that.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
John's interview is nearing the halfway mark, and we're going
to unpack more of it in the next episode. There
are some significant loose ends. Here's Glen Taylor describing for
the podcast how he first became involved in the case.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
I was totally unaware of this matter.
Speaker 9 (51:09):
Range Andrew Reid and his wife Michelle approached us in
nineteen ninety eight, said look, it's it possible to have
fresh eyes, because that had absolutely nothing since that July
or August of nineteen ninety three, nothing had been done,
had been no further developers.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
I was a palled that so little had been going
back in ninety ninety three, there was saying any red flags.
Say very early on, it's not all just about conviction.
It's the family and the children knowing what did actually
happen to Bromwin? Where is she?
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Glen Taylor's investigation spanned two and a half years and
culminated in an inquest in the nearby town of Lismore
in two thousand and two, and Glenn retired from the
police around this time. What do you try to project
in terms of your own tone and approach?
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Well, we still have to maintain a rapport with the person.
You cannot get if you weigh verbally aggressive or directly
put allegations did you murder her wrong in the house
that night? We need to get more information from him
at the time, so we're not going to try to
(52:27):
get directly offside. But when, because we just were still
gathering information and it should have led to at least
a frenzy examination of the home and the.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Car, do you think you build a rapport with Grothan?
Speaker 2 (52:41):
I certainly had a report. We were still in a
fact finding situation where were still interviewing thereous people. We
wanted to get our record because it never been formally
put on record before. What is something occurred? So we
certainly had many things to ask.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
You heard Glenn Taylor refer to a lack of any
forensic examination five years earlier. In the initial police investigation,
I asked doctor Kirsty Wright to look at some of
the key documents from Romlan's case. But first a disclosure,
I am completely biased about Kirsty and her professionalism and character.
(53:24):
She is a truly incredible forensic biologist, precise, persistent and
intellectually brilliant. Her work over two decades has solved numerous crimes,
and Kirsty has also helped identify the remains of many
victims of foul play and natural disaster in Australia and overseas. Kursey,
(53:46):
You've been looking at Romwin Winfield's case based on police
files and other documents that have provided. In nineteen ninety three,
there was no forensic examination of the house where rollin
was like seeing live, or of the family car. What,
in your opinion, could have should have been done at
(54:07):
the time.
Speaker 8 (54:08):
The first thing they would do is identify what we
call primary and secondary crime scenes. A primary crime scene
could be the Winfield house or it could also be
Bronwin's flat at Lennox Head. It's very important when you
do a criminal investigation that you look at the possibilities
that it is a missing person that supports the suspects
(54:28):
version of events, or you look for the possibility of
foul play as well, so both scenarios need to be investigated.
Possible secondary crime scene could be the wind Field vehicle.
All of those locations should have been quarantined and forensically
examined as soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Now, Madison Walsh is here and she's just finished a
degree in physic science majoring in crime scene investigation.
Speaker 13 (54:55):
How long would it have been biable after Brienwin disappeared
before it was a loss cause?
Speaker 8 (55:01):
Ideally, with a crime scene, you want to seal it
off as quickly as possible, and that preserves any evidence
that may be there. It preserves any evidence being lost
or contaminated or removed. Ideally, want that crime scene to
be in a state as close as possible to the
suspicious event. Now saying that, there are some forensic evidence
(55:25):
that can remain after an event or even after a cleanup,
So there could be signs of a struggle, damage to
the property, there could be items that could contain biological evidence,
and also urination and defecation is a symptom of strangulation,
(55:45):
so they'd be looking for any signs of those kinds
of biological material that are out of context. If somebody
lives in their own home, they're going to have their own.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Biological material there.
Speaker 8 (55:57):
But what they're really looking for is something that out
of place, something that could indicate a struggle, or something
that could indicate something much more sinister has occurred.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
In my podcast Shandy Story, doctor Kirsty Wright exposed the
unforgivable failure of the Queensland Government's DNA testing laboratory to
properly test tens of thousands of samples from crime scenes
going back many years. Kirsty's extraordinary findings and her courage
(56:28):
in that podcast series and in the subsequent Shandy's Legacy
series have triggered major public inquiries and huge reforms. Her
work is having a profoundly positive and enduring impact for
many victims of crime, victims of rapes and murders who
previously had little to no chance of justice because the
(56:50):
DNA lab was failing to detect DNA when it was
right there in minute quantities in the crime scene samples.
Cherse did that there circumstances of this case as they
presented at the time to police, in your opinion, demand
a proper forensic examination.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Oh, I believe so absolutely.
Speaker 8 (57:12):
We've got a young woman, a mother of two that's suddenly,
very suddenly, in unexplained circumstances, has left that should have
been treated with suspicion.
Speaker 13 (57:24):
Do you think that there could's been a different outcome
to this case had there been forensic examination immediately after
Brownwin disappeared, Well.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
We simply don't know, Madison.
Speaker 8 (57:36):
It's definitely a lost opportunity to recover what could be
valuable evidence. Sometimes if a homicide is suspected, it could
just be one single drop of blood or one item
that could point to suspicious circumstances and could identify the offender.
By the delay in the police investigating this and the
(57:57):
fact that there was no suitable forensic examination of those
three areas that I just explained, means that there was
a lost opportunities.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
We're going back a long time, though, thirty one years.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
What technology existed at that time compared with now, for example,
DNA analysis and other techniques of trying to discover evidence
where they at a level, at a standard and being
used at that time such that they could have been useful.
Speaker 8 (58:31):
Absolutely, forensic science in nineteen ninety three is definitely a
lot different to what we can do with it now
in twenty twenty four, but there was still the ability
to identify somebody with DNA evidence. In fact, convictions were
being made in Australia as far back as nineteen eighty
eight with DNA evidence. There's also fingerprint examination, there was
(58:53):
the location of biological material using luminol testing POLYLTE. It's
the context in which they're found which is informative. So
simply finding Bronwinner's blood or biological material or finding her
fingerprints may be of no value unless there's actual context
to that.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Well, no value if it's found in the house.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
But part of the police case is that Bromlin's body
must have been concealed in the vehicle. So if for example,
Bromin's biological material had been found in the boot of
the vehicle, if that vehicle had been examine and of
course this is all hypothetical. John has strenuously denied any involvement,
(59:38):
and he was the one who drove the car, would
that have been sufficient to make a.
Speaker 8 (59:43):
Difference identifying blood in unusual locations Unusual locations which may
be consistent with transporting somebody's body from point A to
point b absolutely should have been one of the poority
areas that the police should have investigated. The other thing
the police should have done is a forensic examination of
(01:00:03):
Jonathan Winfield. Would have been too late to get fingerinyl
scrapings from him, obviously looking for any sign of Bronwin's
DNA under his fingern ls, but they could have identified
whether there was any unusual or unexplained injuries on his body.
They should have seized Jonathan's clothing, the clothing that he
(01:00:25):
wore on the night that Bronwinn disappeared, to look for
any biological evidence on the clothing or look for any
signs of damage on the clothing which could be unexplained.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
In your professional opinion, Kirsty, having read now about this
case based on the official documentation, and having read into
lots of other cases, what do you say about the
failure in nineteen ninety three to do any forensic examination
of house or car given the circumstances of a woman
(01:01:00):
who has inexplicably disappeared from her home, her family, her children.
Speaker 8 (01:01:06):
I think it's unacceptable Pedley, even in nineteen ninety three
to not forensically examine those locations. Let's balance it out.
There's two sides to this. Where there's been opportunities lost,
there's also a lost opportunity to find evidence that could
support Jonathan Winfield's version of events as well.
Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Is it surprising, knowing what existed back in nineteen ninety three,
that these things were not done? Oh?
Speaker 8 (01:01:36):
Absolutely, there were forensic tools there. It's a mother of
two children suddenly disappears, is never heard from again. There
are some suspicious circumstances with the movement of her partner.
It just seems incredible to me that this case wasn't
properly investigated.
Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
You were shocked at that, Oh, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 8 (01:02:00):
Even though there was a small delay in reporting Bronwin's disappearance,
there was still more than enough opportunity for the house,
the car, and Bronwin's flat to be investigated. Really sad
for Bronwyn and very sad for her family that they
never got the answers that they deserve if the police
(01:02:21):
had of properly conducted a forensic investigation, and Headley, all
these years later, they're obviously still searching for those answers.
Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
a podcast production for the Australian. If anyone has information
which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
(01:03:04):
You can read more about this case and see a
range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn
podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
(01:03:29):
Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray.
Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio
and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been
assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We
can only do this kind of journalism with the support
(01:03:50):
of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman
for all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents.
It's about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,
The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy,
and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com,
(01:04:13):
dot au and subscribe
Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course
language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian from John
(00:42):
and Bromlan's old house on the hillside in Lennox Head.
It is a fifteen minute drive to the nearest police
station in the town of Ballina. The coast Road is
the picturesque route south, passing John's favorite surfing beaches of
boulders and sharps. Heading west for a bridge crossing at
North Creek, John pulled up at River Street, so called
(01:07):
because of the Mighty Richmond River, a stone's throw from
the police building.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
He got here on a.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Wednesday morning in August nineteen ninety eight to be interviewed
by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor about the disappearance of Bromwin
five years and three months earlier. The videotape of that
interview remains under lock and key with New South Wales Police.
Bromwin's sister Kim Marshall, retrieved the official transcript of the
(01:36):
entire conversation for me. It is vitally important as a
record of the one and only time John Winfield's version
of events. His side of the story has been properly
documented by a senior police detective. Prior to August five,
nineteen ninety eight. His side of the story was known
(01:58):
to many, but they'd heard it from others too, so
there was both direct and hearsay knowledge. There were John's
versions of his trip back to Lennox Head on the
night of Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, his conversations
with Bromwyn and the two girls in the house at
Sandstone Crescent before they were put to bed, His story
(02:21):
about Bromwyn having said she wanted a break from the
children for a few days. The phone calls, he says
Bromwyn made from the bedroom that night. The car, he
says he heard, pull up outside the house on Sandstone
Crescent soon afterwards to collect her, his explanation for his hasty.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Departure from the house that night.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Then a drive of ten hours or so south on
the Old Pacific Highway with Crystal and Lauren and the
pet dog until their arrival the next morning in Sydney.
All of these things were known to Bromwan's friends and family,
but they were told and retold in dribs and drabs
(03:04):
important facts were not known at all. For example, John's
sudden arrival at his former wife's home in the Southerland
shire of Sydney on the morning of the drive from
Lennox Head, and the plea he made to that woman's
mother in law, whom he had never met, to look
after the girls. As John said, he had an important
(03:25):
job to do.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
My daughter in law, Jenny was out and I was
not sure where Brad was.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
In episode four, a voice actor for Joan Mason read
parts of her police statement.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
I answered the door and I saw a man who
introduced himself as Winfield. I don't remember his first name,
but I recalled. He told me that he had been
Jenny's first husband. I saw that he had two young
girls with him. I remember both these young girls were
dressed in pajamas.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I remember this man.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Winfield asked me could he leave the two girls. He
was in Sydney to do a big job. He said
something about being in the building game and he had
to go and see someone about a job. He said
that he had been driving all night. He said he
needed to leave the children with someone. I recall telling
him that he could leave the kids there and I
would tell Jenny when she came home. He left the
(04:19):
children with me and I looked after them until Jenny
arrived back home.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Those details would only come to light in the weeks
after John's interview at the Ballana Police Station on August five,
nineteen ninety eight, as Detective Sergeant Glen Taylor tracked down
more and more people to talk to. Andy Reid's wife,
Michelle had made notes on different pieces of paper over
(04:45):
the five years, notes of what she had been told
by John and what she had been told by others
who talked to John, But nobody had written all of
John's words down until Glenn Taylor asked John to come
to the police station four normal interview.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
The interview has commenced at eight fifty two AM. For
the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state
their full name? Arm Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Detective Senior Constable Wayne Temby introduced himself, and John followed.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Suit Jonathan Winfield.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
The name Wayne Temby will be familiar to listeners back
in nineteen ninety three, when it was the detective Sergeant
Graham Diskins's job to investigate Bromman's disappearance. Wayne Temby was
a more junior officer on the case. He answered to Discan.
The two investigations Detective Discins then Detective Taylor's, were starkly different.
(05:47):
Whereas no statements were taken from anyone in nineteen ninety three,
when Discin was running the investigation, Glenn Taylor was determined
to interview as many people as he could find, get
their statements on the record, and put them into a
brief of evidence.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Do you agree, mister Winfield, that there are no other
persons present in the interview room other than the people
that have just introduced themselves?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Yes? I do.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And do you agree that the only door to this
interview room is directly to your left, which is in
a closed position. Now, yeah, mister Winfield. As I've already
explained to you, Detective Temby and I are making inquiries
in relation to the disappearance of your wife, Browan Joey
(06:37):
Winfield on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen ninety
three from Lennixead. We're going to ask you some further
questions about this matter. These questions and any answers that
you care to give to those questions will be recorded electronically,
both on video and audio. Cassette tapes as the interview
(07:00):
takes place. Do you understand that? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
In this episode, which follows the revelations in the two
subscriber only episodes of eleven and twelve, you are going
to hear John Winfield in his own words. You are
not hearing John's voice. We've got a voice actor for this,
but you are hearing Glenn Taylor's distinctive voice for this
(07:27):
podcast series. Glenn agreed to read from the transcript of
the interview that he did with John, but first, here's
Glenn at his home in Ballina in March twenty twenty one.
I was meeting the former homicide detective for the first time.
Let's go back to the interview that you did with
(07:48):
Jonathan Winfield. There must have been a bit of anticipation,
on a bit of build up, and you go into
that and how did his demeanor striking concerned that the
evidence have a week later to.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Lead to chargers. We believe he should put him on
electronic We called it HEAVI you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
He was cooperative and came to the interview with you
and detected timby voluntarily es. I asked him about the
pros and cons of interviewing the person of interest, a
man whom Glenn regarded as a clear and present suspect
ahead of interviews of everyone else. Remember when Glenn Taylor
(08:34):
interviewed John, it was August nineteen ninety eight. Lauren and
Crystal were ten and fifteen, and John was no longer
in contact with Bromwan's brother Andy Reid, nor with Bromwin's
sisters Kim Marshall and Melissa Reid. John had stopped talking
to Bromwin's cousin, Megan Reid. The families were estranged. Bromwin's
(08:58):
loved ones were deep suspicious of John. In the interview,
are you looking at, for example, a folder that is
in front of you, a long list of questions that
you prepared?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Of what we did. We certainly went over the movements
of himself when he arrived back at the house and
what was discussed, and he again a Lexid that she
was seen this mysterious fan call and leaving the house
and not saying where she's going already ing and then
why he would suddenly just make a decision to take
(09:34):
the key, King still in there, jamas put in the car,
are they in your clothes? And then God in the
family car that she was sitting positional back to Sydney.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
The timeline of the investigation by Glenn Taylor shows that
Jonathan Winfield was the first cab off the rank, the
first person to be formally interviewed.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I think he's still wanted to project in the interview
that he was concerned for her, and then he had
nothing to hide, he'd done nothing wrong. We tried not
to lead in his stay and untain and when you
were sitting there opposite.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Him in the media like that, which is being electronically recorded,
as you're getting the answers and hearing his explanations for
certain things that you might have found.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Suspicious, but you're keeping an open mind.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Were you being persuaded that perhaps this wasn't suspicious, that
she had just started a new life.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Where would she go, how would she fund herself to
do these things? Loan's ever seen us since or none
of her bank accounts had ever been touched, and she's
never attempted to make contact with the kids. We went
right through everything that he allegies happened about his marriage
and going down to Sydney to do work, and then
(10:55):
finding out that prominent move back into the family own.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Did you if I any people who were antagonistic or
potentially enemies of bronwin who may have caused her harm.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Nay not. Why I hope he talks to me. You
never know, Jonathan Winfield, he was never formally Indian. Back
in the addition with mister Gash he has spoken didn't
but he was never formally anyviewed by a WI of
electronic recording or eveything statement taken from him. But he
will have to agree to come in and talk to
(11:30):
you all. Now, No, he didn't. But he's saying that
she just walked down in the family homeland. She's just
a missing person now, and that she's left the home
that have her own lanes. It would likely make it
more suspicious if you said, no on, I'm not going
to participate in any Indian because he's always wanted to
(11:53):
come across that she left the home that night. Never
did he send again and how to strike you in
that interview, I believe he wanted to put himself across
as wanting to assist the police. He didn't ever indicate
he wanted to be leading he represented.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Now let's return to the nineteen ninety eight police interview
with John Winfield.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I'm just going to read this onto the record here,
and if you understand it, I'll just get you to
acknowledge that the statement made by you accurately sets out
the evidence which you will be prepared, if necessary, to
give in court as a witness. The statement is true
to the best of your knowledge and belief, and you
(13:01):
make it knowing that if it is tended in evidence,
you shall be liable to prosecution if you are rawfully
stated in it anything which you know to be false
or do not believe to be true. Do you give
an undertaking to tell the truth?
Speaker 5 (13:17):
In his interview, Yeah, Yeah, John confirmed that he was
still living at the house in Sandstone Crescent with Lauren
and Crystal.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
The experienced bricklayer said he was not working.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Do you agree that prior to the commencement of this
interview I told you that I wanted to have a
conversation with you about the disappearance of your wife at
Lennox Head on or about the sixteenth of May nineteen
ninety three. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
John answered the early questions with what, in my view
reads like an offhand or somewhat disinterested tone. It seems
that Glenn was trying to build rapport, gently rolling the
arm over with a series of easy questions at the start,
When were they married, What was Bromwin's surname before they
(14:11):
were wed?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Where did they live when.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
They first went to Lenox Head from the Qunella Shire?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
When was Lauren born? He wanted John to get comfortable.
Can you give us any names that she used to
associate closely with in the early nineteen nineties? Close friends.
Speaker 6 (14:32):
Denise Barnard, probably the next door neighbor, Debbie Nolan.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Do you know where Denise? I haven't seen. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
I see Denisa around town occasionally talk to her, but
I don't know where she's living, either Ballino or lennox Head.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I have talked to Denise about her limited contact with
John after Bromin disappeared. Have you formed view about whether
he did murder Roman?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (15:04):
I have.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Do you know when you formed a view like that? Right?
Speaker 7 (15:09):
But then I've always had that view.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Did you effectively cut tires with John back then because
of that view?
Speaker 7 (15:17):
Yes, not that he would have ever made an effort
to be in contact with anyone.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Really, He's not that sort of person. He would have
been happy.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
I think once it all died down a little bit,
when Lauren was at school, if it was ever in
the paper Missing Person's Week Roman would appear, she'd.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Be removed from school.
Speaker 7 (15:36):
She wouldn't be there, So he's just kept her protected
all that time as well. High school, she was never
there when anything was in the paper. I could never
approach her say remember me, I mean she was little.
Maybe she remembers me.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (15:51):
When I see her now, she's identical to a mom
from behind.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Do you ever talk to her?
Speaker 7 (16:00):
I didn't ever want to. I don't know, bring it
up and pass my thoughts on to her, because obviously
she still believes her dad. And what would you say,
what haven't you mummy? I mean no, I've just did
never go there, and we were never encouraged to see
(16:21):
her after Bromwin disappeared by John. John just shielded those
kids and nobody saw them. And he's very private.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
I guess it's possible to look at that with an
understanding that he doesn't want his children to be reminded
by rumormongers.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Now back to the nineteen ninety eight interview by Glenn
Taylor of John Winfield.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Okay, the next person just said was a lady called.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Nolan, was it, Yeah, Debbie Nolan. Actually her name is
really Debbie Hall. She's really my next door neighbor.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Deb was one of the first people to contact me
about doing a podcast investigation into Bromwin's suspected murder. You
first heard her in the earliest episodes, and deb stays
in touch, ringing and emailing me with information that she
hears around the community of Lennox Head.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And I thought, you know what, you've got to get
away from this guy. If you call that miserable and
he's controlling.
Speaker 8 (17:26):
And I did used to say to her from when,
you know, when she'd had first crying sessions.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
About out here, and I say, Brown, you can't live
like this. You've got to get away from him. Oh
but I've got nowhere to go, and I'll have no
money and never And that went on for a while.
Speaker 6 (17:43):
Apart from that, Oh wait a minute, there's another girl.
I know someone spoke to her, but I can't even
remember her second name. I know Graham spoke to her.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
The Graham that John is referring to is the then
detective Sergeant Graham Disco and John was speaking about the
woman that we are calling Joan. She has been concerned
about her real name being published. The first time you
heard her was in episode two. I'm not going to
(18:15):
identify you by your name in this podcast, but your
voice will be heard.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, yeah, are you okay with that?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And I understand that you've got personal reasons? Where would
you like to start talking about your friend Brongwa.
Speaker 6 (18:33):
She loves to kill so that there's no way she
willingly go off and leave her kids.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Okay, Okay, We're going to move on a little bit now.
Between nineteen ninety and say early nineteen ninety three, Yeah,
what was happening in your family life?
Speaker 6 (18:55):
Oh well, we moved in the house in January nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
My mother died.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
In September nineteen ninety, bronwin A was pregnant again. She
had an abortion in I can't remember if that was
ninety one or something, either ninety or ninety one, I
just can't remember. I mean, we were going through a
pretty tough time. I mean, like when mom died, I
(19:23):
took it pretty tough, and sort of she got pregnant,
which wasn't planned, and we decided, you know, we weren't
going to have any more kids because at that stage,
you know, we had three kids really living with us.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We had my eldest.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Daughter, Jody Glenn Taylor. Circled back to the abortion.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
How did you How did Bromin feel about that? I
don't know. I sort of, like I said, my mom
died that year.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
I was really close to my mom, and I was
probably I don't know, I mean took it.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
See, mum died in September nineteen ninety. Yes, that was
around about the time that she got pregnant. I think
by memory, around about that time, alright, and it was
just sort of too much for us to cope with.
So we talked about it. We had three kids at
that time and that was enough.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Was there a point in time somewhere between say, Christmas
in nineteen ninety two in March from ninety three where
your marriage started to deteriorate?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, Yeah, that's what's happened.
Speaker 6 (20:35):
That's what happened, you know, sort of sort of virtually
as soon as Lauren got off to school, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Can you tell us about that all? Well? She reckons,
she reckons.
Speaker 6 (20:47):
She told me just before we separated that she had
a nervous breakdown in the in the January of nineteen
ninety three. All right, and I said to her, you know,
what's a nervous breakdown? I've heard of it, but can
you tell me what it is? You know, I sort
of didn't understand, but she reckoned. She had a nervous breakdown,
(21:08):
and she went to see the doctor in Lennox. I
don't know if it was doctor Watson or doctor Hughes.
I don't know which one it was, but she went
to one in Lennox and apparently she was being treated
for depression, you know, like a nervous breakdown. Now, whether
that's true or not, I don't know, but that's what
she told me.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
You know, where did you have these discussions?
Speaker 6 (21:32):
You know what It's like you sort of round the
house and you're sort of talking, and you know, what's
going on with our marriage, that sort of this sort
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Did this go over some weeks?
Speaker 6 (21:45):
Well, Lauren went off to school on what say, the
first of February and ninety three, I think whatever day
school started she started. Then she was still working in
that job at the time, and virtually from that moment
that was when she said to me, one of these days,
I'm going to move out. I drove Lauren and Bronwin
(22:05):
down to the school because I had a big day
sort of starting up at school, and you know, things
weren't sort of things were a bit funny, you know.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
I think I.
Speaker 6 (22:16):
Drove Lauren to school every day for the first week,
you know, with her mum. And I can remember her
going her mum walking to school with her and I said, gee,
that took a long time, you know, because she was
in therefore, it was probably fifteen minutes or so. And
she said she came back and said, I just had
(22:38):
to tell the teacher that we're separating.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
What did you feel about that?
Speaker 6 (22:44):
I was naturally surprised, you know, I mean, fair enough.
I meant we weren't getting on particularly well. But I mean, geez,
plenty of marriages go through funny times. I mean, we
were never sort of fighting in front of the kids,
sort of hitting each other or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
You know.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
See what what's been suggested to me, and I don't
know whether it's right, is when she had this bit
of a job she had, it was virtually the first
job she really had where she had money to herself,
because she kept all the money herself, you know, and
she got that little bit of independence. You know, it's
been suggested to me sort of went to her head
(23:26):
with that little bit of independence. She had her own money,
and sort of she was off, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
The detective asked John whether Bromwin was taking any medication
at the time.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Well, that's like I said.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
She said to me that she'd been treated for a
nervous breakdown in January nineteen ninety three by one of
the doctors in Lenox, you know, but I never saw
her take any medication.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Later, Glenn Taylor would go to see the doctors Bromwin
was known to have consulted, and nobody had any record
or recollection of treatment of roman for a nervous breakdown.
Brommin's brother Andy is adamant that he would have been
told by his sister if she had suffered a mental
or nervous breakdown. He is sure that John's claim is false.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Leading up to this separation, what did she want you
to do? Did she want you to sleep in another
room or move out of the house.
Speaker 6 (24:27):
No, No, we slept No, I mean we've slept in
the same bed. I mean it's sort of funny, like
her moods would change on a daily basis. She's not
what you'd call a bad tempered, sort of aggressive sort
of person, but she's sort of pretty stubborn. I'm probably
more the bad tempered one, you know. I shoot off
(24:49):
a lot of steam. We were getting along fine, and
then sort of she'd sort of say, all of a sudden,
there's problems in our marriage again.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
I mean, I told Graham, Graham, you're talking about detective Sergeant.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
I told Graham, like when she was working in that shop,
I told you about she'd been working with this bloke
in there called.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I don't know his name. All I know is.
Speaker 6 (25:14):
His name's Jacko, right, And apparently from what her girlfriends
had told me that she'd sort of sort of fallen
for this Jacko bloke, you know. And I think Graham
contacted him at Barrera. I'm not one hundred percent, but
I know someone told me his mother lives at Barrera
in Sydney. So anyway, apparently while she was still living
(25:38):
with me, she was all about, he's got a motorbike
and he was picking her up and sort of taking
her for rides up to Byron Bay and back on
the motorbike.
Speaker 7 (25:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
But this is all I never saw it for myself.
Speaker 6 (25:52):
I mean, she'd actually told me that, you know, but
that was while she was working in that shop, Eden's
Takeaway and she was working with this jack guy.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Did you ever see this Jacko? Yeah? I know him. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
What did he look like a sort of tall guy
with black curly hair, heavy sort of what was he
doing for John?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
He was working in the takeaway shop, he was in
the same place. Yeah, yeah, and he and you said
he had a motor sockle.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
Yeah, well, she told me they used to go riding
up to Byron Bay and stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
You know. In episode three, you heard Broman's brother Andy Reid,
recalling John's agitation that his estranged wife was hanging out
with Gary Jackson and had supposedly been seen on Jacko's motorbike.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
All of a sudden, John's ringing me, Oh, she's golla
there and around town.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
She's in another relationship with some bloke. She's on the
back of a motorbike. He was very flustered about that.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
He didn't handle that well because Bromwold remain say John's
upparked up the road at Byron Street after the spot
after John had rung and obviously there must have been
some confrontation because had rung me to say I was
accusing me of other relationship.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
My colleague and friend Dave Murray asked Jacko about this.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Did you ride a motorbike back then? Gary? Yeah, I
used to be a bike by that. Okay, do you
remember if you ever gave Bromwin a lift on a motorbike?
I'm going to give.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Glenn Taylor pressed John on whether Bromwin had money to
herself A sure.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:35):
I never saw the account, But I actually think Graham
was the one that told me about this.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Excuse me. I think it was still in her maiden name.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
It was John's fourth familiar mention of Graham Graham discan.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Okay, we'll just move on a little bit now. I
think the records indicate that you separated some time in
March of nineteen ninety three, formally separated. Yeah, yeah, Can
you tell us about what happened, how the separation actually
came about on the day. I know the basics, but.
Speaker 6 (28:12):
Okay, Well, she was living at she was living at
Byron Street forty forty something. She suddenly decided to live
out in the family house. Yeah, and she'd been living therefore.
I honestly can't remember. Maybe maybe a couple months. I
don't know, I can't remember. She moved out and took
(28:32):
the kids with her, and I stayed in the house.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So she moved out on her own accord. What did
she take with her as.
Speaker 6 (28:40):
Much as she wanted. She virtually took as much as
she wanted. What about furniture, Well, took lounges, I remember.
I think she took the I know she took the
bed because I was sleeping on the floor there on
the single mattress.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Virtually she took the lot.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
According to John, the move was a surprise. He said
he was driving with Bromwin after dropping Lauren at school
when she told him that she'd called a removalist.
Speaker 6 (29:09):
And then all of a sudden, these removalists turn up.
I was told that morning that she was moving out.
I gave her a check for the bond money because
she didn't have any money, so she said, but oh,
you know, I think it was for six or seven
hundred bucks. I think I can't remember now, because apparently
she told me she had no money. I couldn't stop her,
(29:32):
you know, so the kids had to have a place
to live, So I gave her money for the bond,
and I made it out to the lady, the landlord
down there, Shirley Taylor. But later on I found out
that she did have money, because Graham told me she
had a grand in the bank, loaded up and off
she went.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Was that fairly amicable, was it?
Speaker 6 (29:56):
I remember she told the kids the night before that
she was going to move out, and I just sort
of shrugged it off. I says, that's just one of
her sort of you know statements again, you know. And
then sure enough, like that morning I saw her, she said,
the removaluss is coming at two o'clock.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
John wasn't working as a bricklayer when Bromwin told him
she was leaving him. He had injured his neck in
January nineteen ninety three. John told the detective that his
neck was in a brace for almost ten weeks.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
After she moved out to the flat in Byron Street.
How long did you stay in the house in Sandstein
Crescent before you went to Sydney. Oh.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
I went to Sydney virtually just to work, just a
change of environment. I might have been there from either
two to four weeks. I really can't remember. I'd have
to look it up.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
It is not clear from the interview whether John's comment
about having been there for two to four weeks is
a reference to how long he stayed alone at Sandstone
Crescent after Bromin had moved out in late March, or
whether it is a reference to how long he stayed
in Sydney while working for Glenn Webster on the build
of his house in Illawong in the Shire. In Glenn
(31:18):
Webster's statement to police, he specifically recalls working with John
on the Anzac Day public holiday in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
April twenty five.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
He confirmed that his return to the house on the
Sunday night in May was his first visit back from Sydney.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
So you lived with Sydney to work, Yeah, to work,
and then the next contact you had with your wife
would have been the night she the night she actually
jumped in the car. Yeah, that's it when missing. Yeah,
well did you communicate with your wife just say that
you were coming back up to Lennox Head follow.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
I had occasionally had phone calls. I remember one particular
phone call you. I used to ring her occasionally. I
don't remember if it was once a week or once
every two weeks. At that stage she was after me
to put some sort of one hundred and twenty five
bucks or something a month into Lauren's account, which I
(32:16):
was sort of negotiating with her to do like a
child support sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
John recalled a conversation he had on the telephone with
Bromwin when she was living in the flat on Byron
Street and she had a visitor, her good friend and
former neighbor, deb Hall.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
This Debbie, Debbie Hall at the time, was visiting her
just for a cup of tea or something, you know,
and all of a sudden, she just exploded at me
on the phone, you know, sort of went off for
no reason, just to sort of make some sort of
make me out to be, you know, a monster to
this Debbie. You know, because this Debbie mentioned to me,
(32:57):
you know, I don't know why she went off at
you on the phone that day, because there's no reason too.
And then later on they had lunch together and apparently
she said to Debbie Hall something about being a really
good actress or something.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
This was how long before the sixteenth of May.
Speaker 6 (33:17):
I was still in Sydney, I don't know. Could have
been two weeks before, could have been a month before.
I used to ring up from time to time just
to see how the kids were and stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Whilst you were in Sydney. Yeah. And when you were
communicating with her, did she give you any demands of
that propertysettlement? No, not at all. Anything about going that
she wanted to move back into the family home.
Speaker 6 (33:44):
No, No, I never said anything about it at all.
That's why it was such a shock when all of
a sudden she rang well, I rang her up.
Speaker 9 (33:53):
And.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
She'd moved out of wherever she was at forty two
and she was back in the fair home. You know,
I think it was the sixteenth. It was a Saturday
or Sunday, wasn't it? Because I came back on the
Sunday and she left on the Sunday night about midnight.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (34:13):
There are some interesting disclosures in this answer from John.
He was He says shocked that Bromwin had moved back
into the family home, but it seems he was not
shocked when she moved straight back out again, and his
timing is off too. He is saying that she left
(34:34):
on the Sunday night about midnight. Previously, however, he told
Detective Discan and Bromwin's friends and family that it was
about nine nine thirty pm.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Up to that point. Had you been contacted by a
solicitor or had any documents served upon you? No about
family law?
Speaker 6 (34:57):
No, no, just let me think. Well, she didn't know
my address in Sydney, so I couldn't have had any
Now I'm sure I didn't.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Are you aware that she was in contact with a
within he solicitous.
Speaker 6 (35:11):
Well only through what Graham told me. Graham told me
that she'd spoken to a guy in Ballina, Tony Manering,
and I think she'd spoken to a guy Byron Bay
called I can't remember his name now. And later I
found out that she's spoken to and I told Graham this.
I found out from a neighbor of mine that she'd
(35:33):
spoken to a guy from Mulin Bimbi or Ocean Shaw's Way.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
The solicitors to whom John is referring to here, Tony
Mannering and Graham Holland, were consulted by Bromman about her
legal rights, but in the end she decided to retain
Chris mcdebittt, who was based in Lismore. And you've previously
heard that Broman telephoned Chris mcdebott at his home on
(35:58):
the Sunday afternoon because of her concern about John's imminent
arrival at the house. Romman had made an appointment to
see Chris mcdebitt in his Lismore office on the Monday
morning for further legal advice, but she neither canceled nor
turned up, and he never heard from her again. In
(36:20):
my view, this was one of the most concerning and
early signs of possible foul play, and Graham Diskin knew
about it within a couple of weeks of Roman's disappearance,
but no statement was taken from the solicitor or anyone
back in nineteen ninety three. There is another striking feature
(36:41):
for police. John really should have been a person of
interest in his estranged wife's disappearance at a very early stage. Instead,
it is as if John has the inside running on
the police investigation. By the detectives in nineteen ninety three,
John had gleaned a lot of potentially significant information, and
(37:02):
he said he was told all of it by Graham Discan,
Broman's bank account balance, Bromman's legal representation, including Tony Mannering,
and chrismcdebitt. Broman's telephone call to chrismcdebitt on the Sunday afternoon.
They're just some of the things that John volunteered. He
had been told by Graham discin. Sometimes detectives deliberately share
(37:27):
information with a person of interest or plant information for
the suspect to find. And it's a good strategy as
it can prompt panicky reactions and conversations when telephones are
being bugged and listening devices are in houses and cars.
But none of that was occurring with John in nineteen
ninety three. Police were unaware while they were sharing key
(37:51):
intelligence from their own investigation that the person soaking it
up might have been the killer.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
For detectives seen you comfortable.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Wayne Temby, who was in the interview room at Ballina
Police station with Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight, parts
of this must have felt like deja vous. It would
be interesting to know now how Temby, who is long retired,
reflects on the first and the second police investigation. He
(38:22):
has declined to comment for this podcast series. As Glen
Taylor took a breather, Detective Temby chimed in, how did
you become aware when you were in Sydney that she
moved out of the flat?
Speaker 6 (38:37):
I rang up and she wasn't there? So I rang
the family home, all right, and she answered the phone,
and that was what a few days before. You come
up on the day before, I think the day before,
I see, And what did you say to her? Oh,
I can't remember. I said, just surprise she was back
(38:58):
in the family home. You know, I just sort of
shut up to see what was going on. I mean,
she had keys. She always had a key to the
family home anyway, you know. I mean she, her and
I were the only two people bar my father, are
the only ones who have got a key to the
family home.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Actually the house is deadlocked.
Speaker 6 (39:22):
Actually, I think I put a deadlock, and I think
from memory she got a locksmith in to get rid
of the deadlock.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I think from memory.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You heard from Bromwin's neighbors, Chris and Lloyd Hargrave about it.
In episode three.
Speaker 10 (39:38):
She called out to me from our yard on her
side of the house. When I approached Bromwin, she asked
me if I had a key, and I told her
I didn't. She said that she couldn't get into the
house because John had changed all the locks. She was
very upset and crying and said that John had threatened
to take the children from her. The same as he
(40:00):
he had done to his first wife and taken Jodie
from her.
Speaker 11 (40:04):
Bromman said that she was unable to get into the
house and she appeared to be very upset at the time.
It was at this time that Bronman told Chris and
I that Jonathan Winfield had threatened that he was going
to take the children from her. It was not long
after this that the locksmith arrived, and I'm aware that
(40:24):
Bronman moved back into the house.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Bromwin's neighbors were interviewed by Glenn Taylor on September twelve,
nineteen ninety eight, five weeks after John's interview.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
When you made a rageous to come back up on
the sixth Street of May, Yeah, Had you communicated to
her that you were coming? Had you told her? I
might have said, yeah, I'm coming home, Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
John confirmed that Bromwin had kept control of the family
car while he was away in Sydney until the Sunday night,
and she disappeared and he left in the Ford Falcon
with the girls. Glenn Taylor quiz John about his arrival
into Banana on that fateful night.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
He was dark.
Speaker 6 (41:12):
I don't know six o'clock, say, I came straight here
to the police station. See what was your intention to
come to the police station, because I was going back
there I saw it. Didn't want any shit. I just
wanted to cover myself.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Really.
Speaker 6 (41:27):
I told the guy downstairs what had happened. I, you know,
a family breakup, all this sort of business. She moved out,
she moved back into the family home. I'm just going
to go back there now. And you know, it was
just sort of like I didn't want her ringing up
and saying, you know, he's here bashing me, sort of
stuff like that, you know, So I sort of came
(41:51):
to the police first. I told him what I was
going to do, and he said, okay. I saw him
take a note of it and went.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Had there been any complaints no from your wife about
physical contact between yourself and her up to that point? No?
Speaker 6 (42:08):
No, Look, the law is always on the side of
the woman, isn't it. Really, So I just sort of
covered myself. I thought, well, when I come up, I thought, well,
you know, I don't want to sort of go in
there and sort of her start screaming and stuff like that.
So I didn't know what I was going to expect.
When I got there, because you know, I just didn't know.
(42:31):
So I just came in and saw the desk sergeant downstairs,
and I can't remember what his name was actually, but
I spoke to him for probably fifteen minutes, you know,
and I told him the story and I told him
where I was going, and that was it.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
In the police internal running sheet which logged events in
the nineteen ninety three investigation by Graham Diskin, there is
an entry and it was made by the then Constable
Julie Donovan. The entry states that on May thirty of
that year, Constable Donovan.
Speaker 10 (43:27):
Verified from Sergeant heart To that conversation did take place
in relation to rights of moving back into house.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
John described the arrangements that were made for his return
to Lenox. There was the telephone call to get a
lift from the airport with John Watson, the father of
a girl called Natalie, one of Jody's friends when they
were at school together.
Speaker 6 (43:50):
I think I rang him, or Jody might have rung
him and said can you pick that up at the airport?
Because I came back with a surfboard, see at a
bit of Love. Everything I took to Sydney, I brought
virtually brought back with me, you.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Know, And that's another interesting disclosure. In my view, it
strongly suggests that John Winfield was intending to stay in
Lennox for a while. There's no indication in that answer
that he intended to leave again that same night to
drive all the way back to Sydney. John described the
(44:26):
short drive on Sunday evening to the house of Becky Maguire,
another of Jodie's friends from school.
Speaker 6 (44:34):
Because I remember the sergeant downstairs said, you know, you're
better off to have someone with you.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Did you say one of Jade's friends.
Speaker 6 (44:43):
Yeah, one of JD's friends, Becky, who's Jody, Jadie's my daughter.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I just want to pause to make another point here.
While being cross examined by senior lawyers during trial proceedings
over the murder of Christal's AND's wife, Lynn, I realized
that my questioners didn't know some things which in my view,
they ought to have been aware of before asking me.
(45:10):
It won't be true for everyone, but I grew in
confidence in the witness box when my question has made
an error or demonstrated that they were not across some
of the more obvious details. Now, it might have been
a deliberate play by Glen Taylor asking the person of
interest who is Jody? And it's possible the season detective
(45:34):
wanted John to think that the cops knew little when
they were really lulling John into a false sense of security.
If it wasn't deliberate, if Glen Taylor did not know
where Jody fitted into the picture in that first interview,
then in my view, it's not best practice.
Speaker 6 (45:53):
Jody's my daughter, right, but she's been out of the
family home for years now.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
So you arrived at the only can you tell us
what happened when you were right?
Speaker 6 (46:04):
Yeah, Well, Becky came to the door with me and
we knocked on the door and then and the door opened.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
So once the door was open, I walked in.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
John repeated the advice that he said he received five
years earlier from the police sergeant on the front desk
of the same police station in which he was sitting
opposite Glenn Taylor and Wayne Temby.
Speaker 6 (46:27):
Don't sort of barge in, knock on the door and
sort of walk into the family home. Don't break into
the family home. That's what he said to me. So
I took his advice.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Did bron win in for the door.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
Yeah, came straight to the door, opened the door and
I walked straight in. So once I was right in
the door, I said, oh, thanks, beck see you later,
and she just off she went.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
There is a discrepancy here. Becky Maguire had to get
home from Sandstone Crescent. She had been picked up at
her house by John Watson and John Winfield after they
left the police station. Becky's statement to police, which was
taken five weeks after John's interview, is rich with detail.
(47:15):
This is what Becky said happened from the time John
Watson stopped outside the house in Sandstone Crescent to let
John Winfield and Becky get out of the car.
Speaker 12 (47:27):
John Watson drove away. We walked up to the front
of the house and John knocked on the door. The
door opened and Bronwyn and the children were standing at
the door. I can't recall what she was going on about.
She used to babble on all the time. Bronwin walked
back into the house towards the kitchen, and John gave
the girls a cuddle, and I saw that Lauren was crying.
(47:48):
I saw two suitcases inside the doorway, and John picked
them up and put them in the car. John must
have had a set of keys to the car, because
we then got into the car and he drove me home.
I remember both Crystal and Lauren were standing at the
window inside the house watching as we reversed out of
the driveway. John didn't go inside the house at all
(48:08):
while I was in the house with him.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Well, we were driving back to my house.
Speaker 12 (48:12):
John thanked me for coming with him and told me
he was sorry for getting me involved.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Perhaps John Winfield forgot that he drove Becky home. John
Watson's statement makes it clear that he drove away alone,
without Becky or John Winfield.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
So Rowin invited you in to come in.
Speaker 6 (48:34):
She didn't say come in. I just walked in. But
there was no objection, no objection at all. I mean
both the kids came and gave me a hug straight away.
Becky just stood at the front door. I just said, oh,
thanks beck and John Watson he drove Becky home.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, well, yeah, John was waiting out the front. I
know it's a long time ago, but do you have
any recollection what bronwin was wearing?
Speaker 6 (49:02):
I told Graham, but gee, I can't remember. I know,
I think I remember saying to him that she was
wearing the same clothes that she was wearing at work
that day. Right, had all the furniture that she'd taken before, Yeah,
being moved back in there. Yeah everything, not everything, A
(49:24):
lot a lot of it, probably ninety percent. I suppose
the rest was it was still down at the unit. Right,
She left it in the unit, and the landlord had
moved it out of the unit and put it put
in a garage for storage, Right, I see. And then
I had to go down and get it after a
while because she wouldn't give it to me. But then
(49:45):
after a while she gave it to me because there
was still rent going on the place.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
You know. Okay, what happened? Can you take us through?
Speaker 4 (49:52):
Now?
Speaker 2 (49:52):
What happened from the time you arrived over the next
few hours, John described having sat down in the dining
room with a cup of tea. He said, Lauren was
sitting happily on his lap. She hadn't seen her dad
for weeks. That was virtually it.
Speaker 6 (50:11):
And then by that time it must have been it
was after dinner because the kids at eden.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
What was your wife, Demanda like, sorry, what was she like?
What was her attitude to you?
Speaker 6 (50:26):
I don't know. We didn't talk that much. I suppose
she was surprised that I sort of was there, you
know that I rang up the day before from Sydney
and then all of a sudden I was on the doorstep,
you know. So I suppose she was a bit taken aback,
But I mean she didn't really let on that she
was taken aback. I mean, she wasn't hostile or anything
(50:49):
like that.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
John's interview is nearing the halfway mark, and we're going
to unpack more of it in the next episode. There
are some significant loose ends. Here's Glen Taylor describing for
the podcast how he first became involved in the case.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
I was totally unaware of this matter.
Speaker 9 (51:09):
Range Andrew Reid and his wife Michelle approached us in
nineteen ninety eight, said look, it's it possible to have
fresh eyes, because that had absolutely nothing since that July
or August of nineteen ninety three, nothing had been done,
had been no further developers.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
I was a palled that so little had been going
back in ninety ninety three, there was saying any red flags.
Say very early on, it's not all just about conviction.
It's the family and the children knowing what did actually
happen to Bromwin? Where is she?
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Glen Taylor's investigation spanned two and a half years and
culminated in an inquest in the nearby town of Lismore
in two thousand and two, and Glenn retired from the
police around this time. What do you try to project
in terms of your own tone and approach?
Speaker 2 (52:06):
Well, we still have to maintain a rapport with the person.
You cannot get if you weigh verbally aggressive or directly
put allegations did you murder her wrong in the house
that night? We need to get more information from him
at the time, so we're not going to try to
(52:27):
get directly offside. But when, because we just were still
gathering information and it should have led to at least
a frenzy examination of the home and the.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Car, do you think you build a rapport with Grothan?
Speaker 2 (52:41):
I certainly had a report. We were still in a
fact finding situation where were still interviewing thereous people. We
wanted to get our record because it never been formally
put on record before. What is something occurred? So we
certainly had many things to ask.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
You heard Glenn Taylor refer to a lack of any
forensic examination five years earlier. In the initial police investigation,
I asked doctor Kirsty Wright to look at some of
the key documents from Romlan's case. But first a disclosure,
I am completely biased about Kirsty and her professionalism and character.
(53:24):
She is a truly incredible forensic biologist, precise, persistent and
intellectually brilliant. Her work over two decades has solved numerous crimes,
and Kirsty has also helped identify the remains of many
victims of foul play and natural disaster in Australia and overseas. Kursey,
(53:46):
You've been looking at Romwin Winfield's case based on police
files and other documents that have provided. In nineteen ninety three,
there was no forensic examination of the house where rollin
was like seeing live, or of the family car. What,
in your opinion, could have should have been done at
(54:07):
the time.
Speaker 8 (54:08):
The first thing they would do is identify what we
call primary and secondary crime scenes. A primary crime scene
could be the Winfield house or it could also be
Bronwin's flat at Lennox Head. It's very important when you
do a criminal investigation that you look at the possibilities
that it is a missing person that supports the suspects
(54:28):
version of events, or you look for the possibility of
foul play as well, so both scenarios need to be investigated.
Possible secondary crime scene could be the wind Field vehicle.
All of those locations should have been quarantined and forensically
examined as soon as possible.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Now, Madison Walsh is here and she's just finished a
degree in physic science majoring in crime scene investigation.
Speaker 13 (54:55):
How long would it have been biable after Brienwin disappeared
before it was a loss cause?
Speaker 8 (55:01):
Ideally, with a crime scene, you want to seal it
off as quickly as possible, and that preserves any evidence
that may be there. It preserves any evidence being lost
or contaminated or removed. Ideally, want that crime scene to
be in a state as close as possible to the
suspicious event. Now saying that, there are some forensic evidence
(55:25):
that can remain after an event or even after a cleanup,
So there could be signs of a struggle, damage to
the property, there could be items that could contain biological evidence,
and also urination and defecation is a symptom of strangulation,
(55:45):
so they'd be looking for any signs of those kinds
of biological material that are out of context. If somebody
lives in their own home, they're going to have their own.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
Biological material there.
Speaker 8 (55:57):
But what they're really looking for is something that out
of place, something that could indicate a struggle, or something
that could indicate something much more sinister has occurred.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
In my podcast Shandy Story, doctor Kirsty Wright exposed the
unforgivable failure of the Queensland Government's DNA testing laboratory to
properly test tens of thousands of samples from crime scenes
going back many years. Kirsty's extraordinary findings and her courage
(56:28):
in that podcast series and in the subsequent Shandy's Legacy
series have triggered major public inquiries and huge reforms. Her
work is having a profoundly positive and enduring impact for
many victims of crime, victims of rapes and murders who
previously had little to no chance of justice because the
(56:50):
DNA lab was failing to detect DNA when it was
right there in minute quantities in the crime scene samples.
Cherse did that there circumstances of this case as they
presented at the time to police, in your opinion, demand
a proper forensic examination.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Oh, I believe so absolutely.
Speaker 8 (57:12):
We've got a young woman, a mother of two that's suddenly,
very suddenly, in unexplained circumstances, has left that should have
been treated with suspicion.
Speaker 13 (57:24):
Do you think that there could's been a different outcome
to this case had there been forensic examination immediately after
Brownwin disappeared, Well.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
We simply don't know, Madison.
Speaker 8 (57:36):
It's definitely a lost opportunity to recover what could be
valuable evidence. Sometimes if a homicide is suspected, it could
just be one single drop of blood or one item
that could point to suspicious circumstances and could identify the offender.
By the delay in the police investigating this and the
(57:57):
fact that there was no suitable forensic examination of those
three areas that I just explained, means that there was
a lost opportunities.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
We're going back a long time, though, thirty one years.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
What technology existed at that time compared with now, for example,
DNA analysis and other techniques of trying to discover evidence
where they at a level, at a standard and being
used at that time such that they could have been useful.
Speaker 8 (58:31):
Absolutely, forensic science in nineteen ninety three is definitely a
lot different to what we can do with it now
in twenty twenty four, but there was still the ability
to identify somebody with DNA evidence. In fact, convictions were
being made in Australia as far back as nineteen eighty
eight with DNA evidence. There's also fingerprint examination, there was
(58:53):
the location of biological material using luminol testing POLYLTE. It's
the context in which they're found which is informative. So
simply finding Bronwinner's blood or biological material or finding her
fingerprints may be of no value unless there's actual context
to that.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
Well, no value if it's found in the house.
Speaker 1 (59:16):
But part of the police case is that Bromlin's body
must have been concealed in the vehicle. So if for example,
Bromin's biological material had been found in the boot of
the vehicle, if that vehicle had been examine and of
course this is all hypothetical. John has strenuously denied any involvement,
(59:38):
and he was the one who drove the car, would
that have been sufficient to make a.
Speaker 8 (59:43):
Difference identifying blood in unusual locations Unusual locations which may
be consistent with transporting somebody's body from point A to
point b absolutely should have been one of the poority
areas that the police should have investigated. The other thing
the police should have done is a forensic examination of
(01:00:03):
Jonathan Winfield. Would have been too late to get fingerinyl
scrapings from him, obviously looking for any sign of Bronwin's
DNA under his fingern ls, but they could have identified
whether there was any unusual or unexplained injuries on his body.
They should have seized Jonathan's clothing, the clothing that he
(01:00:25):
wore on the night that Bronwinn disappeared, to look for
any biological evidence on the clothing or look for any
signs of damage on the clothing which could be unexplained.
Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
In your professional opinion, Kirsty, having read now about this
case based on the official documentation, and having read into
lots of other cases, what do you say about the
failure in nineteen ninety three to do any forensic examination
of house or car given the circumstances of a woman
(01:01:00):
who has inexplicably disappeared from her home, her family, her children.
Speaker 8 (01:01:06):
I think it's unacceptable Pedley, even in nineteen ninety three
to not forensically examine those locations. Let's balance it out.
There's two sides to this. Where there's been opportunities lost,
there's also a lost opportunity to find evidence that could
support Jonathan Winfield's version of events as well.
Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Is it surprising, knowing what existed back in nineteen ninety three,
that these things were not done? Oh?
Speaker 8 (01:01:36):
Absolutely, there were forensic tools there. It's a mother of
two children suddenly disappears, is never heard from again. There
are some suspicious circumstances with the movement of her partner.
It just seems incredible to me that this case wasn't
properly investigated.
Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
You were shocked at that, Oh, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 8 (01:02:00):
Even though there was a small delay in reporting Bronwin's disappearance,
there was still more than enough opportunity for the house,
the car, and Bronwin's flat to be investigated. Really sad
for Bronwyn and very sad for her family that they
never got the answers that they deserve if the police
(01:02:21):
had of properly conducted a forensic investigation, and Headley, all
these years later, they're obviously still searching for those answers.
Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as
a podcast production for the Australian. If anyone has information
which may help solve this cold case, please contact me
confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
(01:03:04):
You can read more about this case and see a
range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn
podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
(01:03:29):
Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray.
Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio
and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been
assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We
can only do this kind of journalism with the support
(01:03:50):
of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman
for all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents.
It's about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,
The Teacher's Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy Story, Shandy's Legacy,
and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com,
(01:04:13):
dot au and subscribe
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.