December 8, 2024 • 64 mins
News leaks that police believe they’ve cracked the case.
Witness: William Tyrrell is the new, landmark investigation from news.com.au. Read more and watch exclusive video content here
Follow us on socials: Instagram: @newscomauhq Facebook: News.com.au TikTok: @news.com.au
Subscribe to Crime X+ and listen to this podcast ad-free
If you know anything about what happened to William, please call CrimeStoppers on 1800 333 000
Contact us confidentially at witness@news.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right, you've done this before. Yeah, all good, okay. Thanks.
September twenty twenty one, you break the story police close
in on a new suspect, William Copp's confident they have
cracked the case. How did that come about?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So I bump into somebody and I've got to be
very careful, obviously. This is the source.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Mark Murray, or Moz to his friends, is the crime
editor at Sydney's Daily Telegraph newspaper. Moz is old school.
You'll often find him on the phone or in the pub,
usually halfway through telling a long story about Sydney's underworld.
And he's been working the crime beat in this city
for as long as I have been alive. And for
(00:52):
my money, Moz is the best crime reporter in New
South Wales.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I literally bump into somebody who is not a detective,
was not even based at Paramount of Police headquarters where
all the detectives are. I just want to establish that
this person somehow knew quite a lot about the new
way the investigation was.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Going in the police.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Person in the police yes, okay, but not a detective.
But anyway, somebody in the police force who said, look,
this is what's happening now. I believe that William went
over the balcony, that the foster mother was involved, and
(01:41):
quite a few details full disclosure.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I like mos He and I go back. We're colleagues
and have been rivals, each trying to break bigger stories
for our different newspapers. And in the past couple of years,
I've overseen another podcast where mos is one of the hosts.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And I'm paranoid. Like everybody, I didn't want to talk
on the phone this person. I didn't ring police because
I didn't want anyone having their phone records matched up
to when this story potentially comes out. So I was
in here and I was I ran to Ben, you know,
the editor, Yeah, And I told him this whole story
is mind blowing. This is probably the biggest mystery in
(02:20):
Australia currently, the biggest crime story mystery. And here we
have this massive new information on it. And I said,
I've got to confirm it, but I've got to be
careful how I go about it. And he said, okay.
And I'm still thinking, who the fuck do I ring here?
Right one? I don't want somebody shutting me down or
(02:43):
that I want to make sure I don't stuff up
in investigation like that is every crime report is primary.
You don't want to stuff up an investigation because one,
you don't want to see somebody get away with something.
And to no one's going to talk to you again.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
And this scoop Mores is describing it was always going
to get attention. It's the moment the police went public
saying they were looking at William Toole's foster mother as
a suspect. Only the way that happened, at least as
Mos tells it, this scoop was a stuff up, just
(03:18):
not his.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I was in the office ben and I and
he said, oh, maybe i'd make a call or two. Yeah, right,
And he comes out like an hour two hours later,
he said, I've run that past and I don't know who.
And he said, we're find a runner. And I said,
you're sure it's not going to stuff anybody up. He said,
(03:40):
it's it's one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You're okay.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
And I then made no more calls because I thought
it was one hundred percent. It was sweet. So I
wrote the story. Said to Benner, were going to run
in a day or two. He said, oh, you know what,
let's just run up tomorrow and go okay. I said,
are you sure it's okay? He said, yeah, sure, it's sweet.
I'm thinking, well, I'm not going to ring anyone because
I know he says it's fine. So I thought all
(04:03):
the major players had been notified, right, investigators, everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
But everybody hadn't been notified that MOS's story was coming.
And that matters because we're talking about a live police
investigation into a missing child, meaning detectives are still working
the case. They're talking to witnesses, they're choosing what to
tell people and what not to tell them, and they
(04:30):
have covert surveillance running.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And in the end, we put it up at about.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Eight o'clock and so you published it.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And my phone went nuts. And it's a turtle miscommunication
somewhere along the hierarchy chain.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So they didn't know the story was coming.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
They didn't know the story. So the cops in homicide,
particularly running the investigator running the investigation, didn't know, didn't know.
So that would be Dave Laidlaw right, who's now still
in charge. He had no idea. Now I've had known
him again for years. It just meant that everyone in
homicide believed I'd broken the golden rule, you know, potentially
(05:14):
an investigation, that's the golden rule, and that is the
golden ruar.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So in this case, the cop running the investigation into
William's disappearance didn't know that you were going to run this.
His boss who's the head of homicide, didn't know you
were going to run this. My understanding is the assistant
commissioner didn't know, and the relevant deputy commissioner didn't know either.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yes, subsequently I found that out. Yeah, but sickening feeling.
It's really because this one that's my lifeblood, is your
reputation and your contacts, and there was anger, There was
serious anger.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So the question is who should be the target of
that anger. Who's to blame for this stuff up that
might have damaged the William Tyrrell investigation?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Even to this day, people would like to know the
initial source.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
But it's not just the initial source, is it. Because
the initial source with what you do, maybe has a
casual conversation with you, and that is your job, and
that's that happens. But there's also the secondary source who
confirms it to your editor. So there's two sources of
this league, which the.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
More importantly saying it is okay, The.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Thing about the story was it was pretty strong, like
it wasn't you know. It starts off police zero in
on a new person of interest, fair enough, who they
believe is responsible for the death and disappearance of William Tyrell.
Police are now confident they will solve the mystery of
the disappearance. A new investigation has uncovered clues previously not explored.
(07:01):
And although at the start you're talking about a person
of interest, by midpoint through the article you're calling that
person a suspect. You're not naming them, but you're saying
the cops suspect this person is.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Respect If wish we'd actually said that it's on the
foster appearance now, I think we probably could have gone
with it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
It was pretty obvious who you were talking about. I
mean everybody knew. Everybody did know, because as soon as
Mozzy's article is published, other reporters are calling the police force,
who do confirm their new suspect is William's foster mother.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Good afternoon, There have been major developments in the William
Terrell investigation today, and as we go to wear this afternoon,
this is what we know. The toddler's foster mother is
now the key person of interest in his disappearance.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The key person of interest, despite as we now know
from the inquest, the police having no forensic or witness
evidence to support that. And all of this attention also
explode what had actually been a careful, gradual strategy to
apply pressure to William's foster mother through other leaks to
(08:09):
the media and select interviews with chosen reporters.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
So if anyone out there is thinking I might have
gotten away with this, what's your message?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
They haven't like this Sky News interview with David Laidlaw,
the new lead detective. You know what happened, don't you?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You know who it is.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
We have thoughts about what occurred to William, Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Is and who was responsible?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yes. The police strategy was to slowly ratchet up the
pressure while all the time the foster parents' house and
car and telephones are being recorded with covert surveillance. It's
exactly the same kind of tactics that led to the
downfall of the previous lead detective, Gary Jubilin. But Moz's
(08:57):
front page story blows up without warning, right in the
middle of this careful strategy.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I was told, in no uncertain terms, an explosion has
gone on. There is which hunts, there is anger, and
I can understand because this is a huge case. They're
trying to solve the case of a missing boy at
a little child, and no matter what we say, and
(09:25):
how no matter what they say, and that every case
is equal, every murder is equal, every it isn't emotion
gets you know, there's a little child, you know. And
so to have their strategy stuffed up innocently bye whoever,
(09:47):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I take issue with that because, yeah, you may have
stuffed up their strategy innocently, because you as a journalist,
to writing what you've been told, and what you've been
told by someone in the police is good to go. Yeah.
But that person who your editor, Ben English spoke.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
To, he's spoken in more than one and I might
have done, and I've got to be you know he
has he has sources that still amaze me.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right, But that person who to have known that must
almost certainly have been in the police themselves and confirmed
it to Ben and said, yeah, you can go with that.
That person is not acting innocently.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
No, And I want yeah, I can't answer that because
I don't know the person.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I spoke to. Mozzy's editor Ben English, and he's not
going to reveal his source, and I wouldn't expect him to.
But it's not really about Ben. It's about those people
caught up in the fallout.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And I've crequently found out it didn't stuff up any investigation.
In fact, there was a media strategier almost in place
to use the telegraph exactly the way we did it,
except for it didn't match their timetable.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
There is one other aspect to this in terms of
the fall out is that William's biological foster parents weren't
told this story was coming before it came, and there's
an element of emotional damage done by that.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, which again I didn't know. Well, I'd imagine the
foster parents who were target of the investigation. I thought,
when you're given the good to go, I would have
thought that there was something in place, and like I
(11:57):
think that there still would have been saw something in
their house no matter what there were you. Yeah, so
that wouldn't have bagged that part up the emotional to
the biological paincheer. I can see where you're coming from,
and that's something I think we hadn't probably explored enough.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
But I don't think it's on you. Moss says it's
taken him years to repair his reputation and his relationship
with some of the detectives in the homicide squad. So
he's another person who suffered at least a little in
the fallout from the way police have handled the William
(12:38):
Tyrle investigation. And talking to Moz, I'm starting to think
how this is only the latest in a history of
leaks from the police force in this case, going right
back to the first raids on Bill Spedding, to Bill's arrest,
the details of what he was wrongly charged with, the
existence of other potential suspect that was leaked, as was
(13:02):
Gary Jubilin being taken off the investigation. And then there's
this leak about the police suddenly suspecting William's foster mother,
which will in turn be followed by another leak. Good evening.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
We begin tonight with breaking news on one of Australia's
most baffling cases.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
This time revealing that police have sent a brief of
evidence to the States Director of Public Prosecutions.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
Nine News can reveal detectives now believe there's enough evidence
to charge the toddler's foster mother over his disappearance.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
This news breaking in June last year, a day after
what would have been William's twelfth birthday.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Talking about leaks, that's the one that's caused more consternation
than anyone. That they had handed a brief to the DPP.
Now that was even a bigger leak because I think
only seven people knew, and I know there was an
internal investigation over there. So I think the reporter involved
in that, she's been sent to Coventry. I know it
(14:04):
actually feels because they're furious about that.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And if the police are furious, it's because these leaks
keep threatening to damage the investigation into who took three
year old William Tyrell, who kind of gets forgotten in
the storm of headlines and the internal politics in which
this whole case has played out over the past decade.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think Tyrrell has no boundaries to national It's like
one of those stories that captures the whole nation. It
just doesn't. It's not just a Sydney or Telegraph story,
don't you think. And certain reporters have become obsessed, haven't they.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I'm not innocent within this. I'm a reporter. I like leaks,
like being leaked to but standing back, I can see
how innocent lives get caught up in the explosion when
these bombs go off on the front pages, or because
someone couldn't keep their mouth shut on a phone call
(15:17):
with a reporter or an editor. And I can see
how these leaks also feed the damage and suspicion surrounding
this investigation, as have other leaks which are more illicit
and more damaging and where the police are not the
(15:37):
only guilty party. From news dot com dot Au. This
is witness William Tyrell episode ten. The suspect.
Speaker 7 (15:55):
Had a higher yep, right, oh thanks, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
This is a woman called Alana Smith speaking to another
colleague of mine, the journalist Caroline Overington, in twenty twenty one,
the same year MOS broke that story about police now
looking at William's foster mother.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
All right, let's go it comes true.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Alana has some skin in the game here. She once
went to court arguing for the right to publicly identify
William Tyrol as a foster child when the government was
refusing to let that happen, which is partly why Caroline
wanted to talk to her.
Speaker 8 (16:33):
It's just audios, a podcast is just voyey.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
That's not what interested me though, listening to this recording,
I'm interested in one particular moment.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
We don't need to clear everything off, but do you
want to just move that computer?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Which happens while they're still setting up the interview, and
we might need this cheering.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
Here's some stuff on us from the group perfect stanky,
but you don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Alana says, there's some stuff on here from the brief
and hands it over. The brief is the brief of evidence,
meaning all of the evidence the police have gathered in
this case for the inquest into William's disappearance, and which
somehow leaked, got into the papers and ended up circling
(17:22):
around the internet. And that matters because this is evidence
from a police investigation which today is still ongoing. And
these leaked documents include police statements and transcripts of interviews
with witnesses, including William's foster parents, and their phone records
(17:44):
and photographs marked protected and confidential, all of which, if
it becomes public, can only undermine the police and the
inquest and their chances of bringing to justice whoever it
was who took William. And Alana must know she's not
(18:05):
supposed to just hand this stuff over listen again.
Speaker 9 (18:10):
There's some stuff on these from the proof perfect thank you, but.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
There, she says, but you don't know I have that.
Alana has her own take on William's disappearance. She's gone
online herself a lot, calling William's foster parents quote dirty
fucking parasites, and calling Gary Jubilin a corrupt, fucking motherfucker
(18:40):
and worse. I shouldn't need to say this, but there's
no evidence to back up her insults, and I'm only
mentioning them to demonstrate just how dirty and polluted everything
surrounding this case has got.
Speaker 10 (18:57):
So.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I called Alana, but she didn't answer, sir. Then she
called me back, Hello, Hello, Dan, Hi Alana, how are
you doing? Yes? Good, thank you.
Speaker 11 (19:09):
I just want to let you know that I'm recording
the conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
That's fine, you're happy if I record it as well.
Of course, Alana has written things about me online also.
Since starting this series, we've exchanged messages on Facebook in
which she's called me assy but definitely not classy. She's
called me a weak ass journo and that it's about
time I was brought into line.
Speaker 11 (19:35):
This will be a one way conversation, but I'm all used.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Dan, When you say one way conversation.
Speaker 11 (19:40):
How do you mean, well, it'll be you talking because
I truly have nothing, honestly nothing to say to you.
I've articulated my thoughts and my feelings about what you
and your current colleagues are doing and how you are stewing,
and I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
D Alana says, I'm skewing the.
Speaker 11 (20:02):
Facts, the facts between within that brief of evidence.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
Because there is nothing that I have further need to
say to you.
Speaker 11 (20:13):
There isn't already abundantly clear within the documents.
Speaker 12 (20:17):
Sure you're getting cliques, Sure you're getting paid, Sure you're hanging.
Speaker 11 (20:22):
Out with the fucking bee boys, but your morals.
Speaker 7 (20:26):
And your ethics are in the fucking gutter, and shame
on you, Dan Box.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Basically, Alana doesn't like the way we've made this podcast.
Speaker 11 (20:37):
What is it that you fucking want from me?
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Apart from the truth, and I'm giving it to you.
I'd have you and Gary Jubilan in a quarter of
law in a fucking heartbeat.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
She says, we're pursuing a narrative one that she does
not agree with.
Speaker 7 (20:56):
Shame on you because you use every goddamn day to
get out of bed and put your fucking fancy pants
on and continue to go down this contractual sheep fuckery.
And there's only one person to blame apart from yourself. You, you, You,
yourself and yourself can have nothing to say.
Speaker 12 (21:20):
And the people that I'm going to say it to.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I said it online.
Speaker 7 (21:25):
Actually I said shit about you on an open from
I went and said that listen.
Speaker 10 (21:30):
I hope we're recorded.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I truly hope were recorded.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Oh yeah, we are. Yeah, you said you said you're recording,
and I am as well.
Speaker 7 (21:38):
And I'll be a push for a fucking gonedab inquiry one.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Way or another, come hell or high water. Can I
ask you antion trial alone? Can I ask you something?
Speaker 7 (21:53):
Well, whether you can ask or I'll allow you to ask.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Me, whether I yeah, one hundred percent, You don't have
to answer. I just needed to ask. There's a couple
of things I'm interested in. You talked about putting things,
putting things online. You've you've obviously said a lot about
William's foster parents. You've said their murderers, you've said their pedophiles,
and so on.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
Yep, sure, we got taken a call over and got fucking.
Speaker 11 (22:14):
Tried about it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
You know I've been yeah, and.
Speaker 11 (22:17):
We'll go again, because fucking we'll go again.
Speaker 8 (22:20):
If that's getting into court, Pushing the boundaries is the
only fucking what.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You don't have any evidence of that.
Speaker 12 (22:26):
How you got the fucking files?
Speaker 8 (22:28):
How I got the fucking files?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
That's actually my second question. That's the second thing I'm
interested in. You have shared documents from the brief of
evidence with journalists.
Speaker 7 (22:40):
So what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I've got you on tape doing it, Alana, Sure, sure.
Speaker 12 (22:45):
And if I have, then if I have, then it's
been in private.
Speaker 11 (22:49):
And that's what journalists do.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But why have you shared documents from the kid? But why?
Why did you share documents from the brief of evidence
in a live homicide and investigation?
Speaker 7 (23:01):
The same reason I started a petition, the same reason
I told a Supreme Court judge to go fuck himself,
The same reason I continue to argue the point to
you in every other journo, the same reason.
Speaker 12 (23:15):
Why I continue to tell you that you're a lie
life scumbag on a moral principle, because there's a fucking
child missing in state care.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You shared those You shared those police documents.
Speaker 12 (23:28):
Because I don't give a shit you want to get
with titious.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I'm not I'm definitely not threatening. I'm just trying to
understand this.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
Quite okay for you to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I definitely I'm not threatening. I've got no interest in
legal action. But I am trying to understand why you would.
Speaker 7 (23:47):
Share documents, Why.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You'd share police documents from a live homicide investigation other reporters.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
Why do you receive other people's brief of evidence documents
in your ant in book.
Speaker 12 (24:00):
Then before you ask the.
Speaker 7 (24:02):
Questions of me, how about you make sure that your
own fucking bed, you're an in box, your own nests
is clean.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Sent mements. But there's a difference between receiving them and
sharing them. And I'm just curious as to you.
Speaker 7 (24:19):
And will argue that point out like I did in
a criminal trial or any other trials.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
No, there's no criminal trial because I don't even know
if there's a criminal offense. But I am interested in
why you didn't.
Speaker 7 (24:30):
I'm baiting.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
It's baiting.
Speaker 12 (24:33):
This has gone along enough. This is stupid, absolutely stupid,
one way or another, regardless whether what I've said, regardless
of who is guilty.
Speaker 7 (24:47):
What you're doing, and the narrative in which you're running
is filthy.
Speaker 9 (24:53):
That's it.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
You want to get higher. You want to understand why
I've done certain things. I've just given you. I've just list.
You asked me a question, and I've given you an honest, tenant,
ten point answer as.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
To why I do the things that.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I do because you think it's in them. Do you
think it's in the public interest?
Speaker 7 (25:09):
Not for a dirty pay packet, Not for a dirty
old fucking paypacketdre not to sell my soul, not to
get a fucking leg up in the media, fucking not
to not to get on jump onto the biggest fucking
case thereies to making the air for yourself in your
new job.
Speaker 8 (25:26):
I do everything that I do authentically from my fucking
heart because of those children.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Have you thought about the possible damage you might do
to the investigation by sharing those documents?
Speaker 7 (25:38):
The investigation knows who I am, they know where I live.
Speaker 8 (25:43):
There's been nothing come at me. What were the facts?
What were the context?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
What was yet? What?
Speaker 8 (25:51):
Let's put it in context?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So is that why you shared them alone? So you
what is that why you shared them so people will
understand the facts.
Speaker 7 (26:00):
Probably not even about that.
Speaker 8 (26:02):
It's about the child.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
By child Alana means I think it's about William.
Speaker 7 (26:09):
How many times I said it's about the child, and
about the child, about child, about child, about the child,
about child, about child.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Why do you care so much about William?
Speaker 7 (26:18):
Because I do because of what's happening to him, the
way in which it's happened, the ass covering that the
government do, the gas lighting that they do, the way
that the media in which cover it or don't cover it,
the way in which the government and the Parliament use
and abuse legislation to protect their own fucking goddamn mars.
Speaker 8 (26:40):
There's a whole myriad of reasons.
Speaker 7 (26:41):
Why I want to be invested or why I am,
apart from the fact that I too was a little
William at one stage and fucking forcibly removed from my mother.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Like William, Alana was taken from her birth family and
put into foster care. Her experience of that was awful,
and I don't pretend to understand what she's been through.
But she and I are going to have to agree
to disagree on other things.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
I do later at nights sometimes and I think to myself,
Dan is an unredeemable, fucking low life prick. But I
still don't understand why he's chosen the road that he has.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
So are you asking me why we're doing what we're doing.
Speaker 7 (27:26):
Why are you doing what you're doing with the narrative
in which you're doing it, Dan.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Look, the only narrative we're trying to tell is to
look at the investigation from the beginning and what was
done right and what was done wrong. That's been our
starting point.
Speaker 8 (27:41):
There needs to be an inquiry. What do you think
about an inquiry on record?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
I'd love to see a public inquiry into that one,
because it's not really my job. My job is to
report the facts and not to call for things.
Speaker 7 (27:54):
Were you pushing an advocating for one?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Because I'm not an advocate. I'm a journalist and my
job is to report the facts as best we can.
It's not my job to You haven't been doing that,
you know, I promise you. We've been trying to listening back.
I think that's a weak answer, So Alana, if you're listening,
I would love to see a public inquiry into the
(28:19):
William Tyran investigation. And ten years on with no answers
about what happened to him, I think there should be
an inquiry. And I know from speaking to them for
this podcast. That Bill Spedding and Gary Jubilin they both
think the same. There's one last thing I asked, Alana,
(28:42):
where did you get the brief of evidence from? Aline?
Speaker 7 (28:46):
Listen, I've been a part, I've been an advocate for
the Biological Family for the last I.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Was told you. I was told you got them from
the Biological family.
Speaker 8 (28:57):
Listen, not done at all? Where did I get the
brief of evidence?
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Where do I get any court documents?
Speaker 8 (29:03):
Where do I get any family information?
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So you got it from the Biological Family? Are you?
Speaker 9 (29:07):
How dare you?
Speaker 7 (29:08):
Because I worked as an advocate for that fucking family
and I continue to do that.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Look, it's no criticism, it's I'm curious. So you got
it from the Biological Family.
Speaker 7 (29:18):
I'm saying I did.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I'm not saying I'm told I was told you did.
Speaker 7 (29:23):
Questions because you sound stupid.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Is there anything else you wanted to say to me?
Speaker 8 (29:27):
What you fucking apart from all the fucks in and
that you set fuckery and that that you're morally along
in what you're doing?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Now?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
No, I got all of that. Yeah, I got it.
But there is a problem here because I spoke to
Natalie Collins, William's biological grandmother, who denies giving Alana the
brief of evidence and says Alana is no longer acting
as an advocate for her family, and said some other
(29:59):
things about Alan and about William's foster parents, which I'm
not going to repeat here because they're offensive and there's
no evidence to support them, just like the things Alana's
been saying online about William's foster parents. Their insults and
they're not true. But now there are all these different voices,
(30:21):
William's birth and foster families, the police, people who say
they are advocates for something, those posting lies and abuse online,
and reporters and editors who are all talking and sharing
confidential information, getting louder and nastier in what they're saying
to each other and online. Even before that front page
(30:46):
story about William's foster mother, she and her husband had
become targets.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Cold, cold people they are, how do they sleep at night?
Speaker 9 (30:56):
William has been murdered, cocaine addict.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I'm interested in seeing him and handcuffs.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
William Tyrrell was tortured, raped and murdered.
Speaker 12 (31:04):
Motley crew of pitophile mates pitophile rapist.
Speaker 8 (31:08):
Doc William has been murdered by his narcissistic psychopath foster
mother and the corps, then dismembered and courted for disposal
by the besotted foster father.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
These are lies, they're false, but they still added to
the pressure on the couple, who, throughout the time they
were under police investigation, were also managing the fallout of
William's disappearance on another child who was living with them
and who we can't identify for legal reasons. William's foster
(31:42):
parents were also providing emergency and respite care for other
children at the request of the state government's Department of
Community and Justice. A court will later hear from one
of the department staff saying William's foster parents were often
called upon to help out when the department was in
a jam, and the corporate view of the department was
(32:05):
that they were very responsible and trustworthy parents. But these
kids aren't always easy to look after, taken from their
birth families by the state, often dealing with their own trauma,
so that's pressure. At around the same time, the COVID
pandemic shut Australia's borders and sent Sydney into lockdown, so
(32:29):
that's pressure. Then In December twenty twenty, Williams foster nana died.
William's foster parents suspected a cop who turned up at
the funeral was wearing a wire, and they're not wrong
about being under surveillance. The police put five listening devices
and two cameras in place in the foster parents' home,
(32:51):
plus intercepts on their mobile phones, and these run for
nearly a full year, meaning in total something over sixty
thousand hours of surveillance, from which the cops gather over
one thousand hours of recordings. Among them, the police record
(33:11):
William's foster parents arranging for someone to place dummy bids
when they sell their homer auction, which frankly is stupid
and greedy and illegal, but it happens, and the cops
will charge them with dishonestly obtain financial advantage or cause
disadvantage by deception, which carries a maximum ten year prison sentence.
(33:36):
So that's pressure only. The cops later withdraw this and
the couple plead guilty to a lesser charge and a
fined three thousand dollars.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
It must feel like the police are hounding you.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
You're not going to make any comments.
Speaker 9 (33:51):
Thank you did you have anything to do with William's disappearance.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I'm not going to make any more comments. Thank you
to ices also record arguments between William's foster parents and
the child, a teenager. I can't play those recordings for
legal reasons because the police charged William's foster parents over
these recordings.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Also, are you disgusted at hearing how you spoke to
that little girl?
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Do you see how bad a look this is given
you're a person of interest in William's disappearance. I've sat
in court listening to these recordings more than once, and
their unpleasant listening. In the worst, you hear disembodied voices.
It takes a while to work out it's a child.
(34:40):
The child shouts no, go away, go away. There is
a long, indistinct drawn out crying. William's foster mother says,
get up, stand up, stand up. Then she asks the child,
where did you put the wooden spoon. The child says
it's behind there. No, please, no, The foster mother says,
(35:04):
move your hand. There's the sound of an impact. She says. Sit.
You can hear the child crying. It sounds bad, and
it is bad in court on either side, I can
sense the other journalists feel revolted, and I do too,
(35:27):
But it also sounds like a family that's not working,
where people are breaking under pressure. Also listening in the
courtroom is the former lead detective Gary Jubilin, And during
(35:48):
a break here and I go outside and we talk
about what we just heard. What did you make of that?
Speaker 13 (35:56):
The two recordings that were bled.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I did know this.
Speaker 13 (36:00):
You listen to that recording and it's confronting. There's a
child screaming. But it was a child screaming. It wasn't
there was no it wasn't someone that had lost their temper.
It wasn't the adult screaming irrationally. It was a child screaming.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Now, yeah, but a child could be screaming because you're
really hurting that child.
Speaker 13 (36:17):
That didn't sound like that.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I we listened to that twice. For the first time.
I listened to that, and I thought, that sounds really bad.
That sounds like a child in absolute distress.
Speaker 13 (36:30):
I thought it was very interesting, and we only bearing
in mind, we heard a very small snippet, which is
obviously what the prosecution want as the worst snippet. I'm
going to call the police. That was a child that
was contained not a child that was in pain or injured.
Then it just escalated, but the child escalated it.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
We might have to agree to disagree on that. Yeah,
I heard a parent going off with their child and
a child at a distress, screaming and screaming. But if
you recorded, I don't actually feel it comes to with sites.
But if you recorded some of the of the worst
conversations I've had with my kids, they might not have
sounded much.
Speaker 13 (37:10):
I would say the same thing then, And I raised
my children in a house and no violence or threats
or whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
The police charged William's foster mother with assault and she
pleads guilty. She also pleads guilty to a second assault
charge over a kick on the same child, which happens
during another argument where the child was going to kick
another much younger child who the family were looking after.
(37:39):
The foster mother kicks the older child to stop her,
then says, now you know how it feels. Do you
think you want to make that decision again? The older
child cries, and later on a telephone intercept, the foster
mother tells a friend, I'm ashamed. I can't believe it happened,
(38:00):
but I lost it. In another phone call, the same day.
She says, I'm not used to being like this. I'm
not coping. The problem is we've got this investigation hanging
over our heads. The police believe we did something to William.
How do I live with that? How do I live
being looked at? When the foster mother checks the elder
(38:23):
child later, the kick doesn't leave a mark, But all
the time the cops are listening. One court will later
hear the detectives knew about this first assault with the
spoon as early as the next day because they're listening.
But they don't remove the child. In fact, they leave
(38:47):
that child living with William's foster parents for almost a
full year after And you have to ask, if the
police really believe the child is in danger, why wait
so long. And there are other recordings for which the
detectives investigating William's disappearance will charge the foster parents with intimidation,
(39:12):
but where the magistrate hearing the case will say she's
listened to the entire recordings and will say those parts
that were played in court have not been put into
their proper context by the prosecution, and that the transcript
of the recordings provided by the prosecution doesn't always match
(39:34):
the words that she heard on the recordings, and she'll
say it can hardly be said the alleged intimidation was continuous,
and that, having listened repeatedly to the whole of the recordings,
she views the child's call for help as calls for
help with cleaning her room, a frustrated young girl at
(39:56):
the end of her tether. And the magistrate will s
say the recordings aren't nice, but they don't go far
enough to demonstrate criminal intent to intimidate. And it's also
true that in court we hear only minutes or at most,
I think a couple of hours of the thousand or
(40:17):
more hours the police recorded. But outside one of the
court hearings, the police prosecutor will come out and he'll
walk over and start talking to the reporters who are
sitting about to file their stories. And the reporters will
say the tapes sound awful, and the prosecutor will say,
how he has kids, and the first time he listened
(40:40):
to them, he was chain smoking and drinking wine. And
he'll say, there's a damn sight more that I can't
share with you. And he'll say it would have been
easier for him to close the court so the hearing
took place in private, but that it's in the interests
of justice for people to hear this, and every day
the detectives investigating William's disappearance will be in the court room,
(41:04):
despite the fact that these offenses have nothing to do
with what happened to William and took place years after
he disappeared. And at one point the police prosecutor will
say in court that this case isn't about William Tyrrell.
But if it's not, and it's only about a kick
(41:26):
on a different child, then why is the strike Force here?
And later that same police prosecutor will turn up at
the inquest hearing into William's disappearance, sitting with the detectives
and talking to the police lawyers because really, these other
(41:47):
charges have everything to do with the investigation into William's disappearance.
One of the Strike Force detectives, Andrew Lonegan, will later
say this in court, saying he thinks they quote go
to the character of propensity of violence to children. But
(42:08):
most of the charges the police bring against William's parents
end with not guilty verdicts, and the couple are now
appealing others.
Speaker 10 (42:22):
A major blow for police a major victory for their
latest target, William Tyrrell's foster mother, leaving court and overwhelmed
after the magistrate let her off not guilty.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Isn't really a major victory?
Speaker 7 (42:38):
How has the pressure been these past few years?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
The pressure continues. The detectives visit the foster mother's family
and friends, asking questions had they ever seen her angry
as a parent? Ever seen her lose control? The police
investigation morphs into a joint investigation with something called the
New South Wales Crime Commission, which was set up to prevent,
(43:06):
disrupt and reduce the incidents of organized and other serious crime.
The Crime Commission works in secret. You actually can't tell
anybody you've been called there to give evidence, and it
has unrival powers. It can force people to give evidence,
(43:27):
make them answer questions. In October twenty twenty one, two
of the detectives visit William's foster mother at home to
give her an order that she's to face questions at
the Crime Commission. A court will later hear how one
of those two men, who's a short, red faced detective
(43:48):
called Andrew Lonegan, tells William's foster mother it's not personal
and we're not here to fucking bluff. The other detective
is a big, swaggering man called Scott Jamison tells her,
you'll have to live with it. We aren't guessing. We
know why, we know how, we know where he is.
(44:11):
William's foster mother says, I'm actually trying. I'm trying to breathe.
You're actually now saying I tried to hurt William. Andrew
Lonegan says, we're not saying you hurt him. Scott Jamison
says again, we're saying we know why it happened, we
know how it happened, and we know where he is.
(44:35):
But we know from the inquest that the police don't
know those things. They have no forensic or witness evidence
of what happened to William. Andrew Lonegan will later say
in court that he was telling the truth during this exchange.
(44:55):
Inside the crime commission, William's foster mother is questioned over
two days. She's asked over and over and over did
she have anything to do with William's disappearance, and over
and over she says no. While William's foster mother is
(45:18):
giving this evidence, the child who's been living with her
and her husband is at school, a detective from the
Strikeforce arrives without warning. The child doesn't know why the
detective is there. She thinks maybe it's to do with William.
The detective takes the child from class for an interview,
asking her seven hundred and fifty one questions which a
(45:42):
magistrate will later describe as being of a patently leading nature,
such as, has William's foster father ever hurt you? Has
anyone ever put you in time out? Has he ever
grabbed your neck when you tried to get out of
time out? When was that? She says, she doesn't know
(46:02):
that child will never go home to William's foster parents.
The next day, she'll call a family friend and leave
this message, which we've asked someone else to read out.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
And that's alle Else's house, a foster home, and I
want to go to your house.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
And love this one. I've seen emails from detectives on
the Strikeforce to state government officials saying they don't want
this child to have any contact with William's foster family
or friends. The police also take out an apprehended violence order,
preventing contact even phone calls. It's not certain if their
(46:43):
Christmas presents are passed on to her. And it's been
years now, during which time this child must have gone
online and seen what people have written about William's foster parents.
I've got a daughter around the same age. I look
at her and I can't imagine what being treated like
(47:06):
this would do to her. So when I look at
all the people who've been caught up in the investigation
into William's disappearance, this child is the first person I
think of, and I find myself actually hoping the police
are right about what happened to William, because at least
(47:29):
then what's happened to this child is justified, because if
the police are not right, then the damage done to
this child is just too great.
Speaker 9 (47:46):
We were just a regular family.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
This is that child's cousin. Her aunt is William's foster mother.
Tell me about William. When did you first meet him.
Speaker 9 (48:02):
I think it was not long after he came into
their care. He was only a baby. I mostly remember
him as more of a toddler. He was full of energy.
(48:22):
My nan I would always say he was full of beans,
that was her saying, and he was just happy and giggly.
He would run around the house when we were there
for occasions, being just super excited to see people and
the buzz that was happening cause it was a Christmas
or a birthday. I looked after him one time. I
(48:46):
baby sat for a few hours in an evening and
he would want to play monkey in the bed when
I put him to bed.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
There was a girl as well who we can't name.
How do you remember her from that time?
Speaker 9 (49:05):
She would dug on him when he wanted to play
monkey in the bed, and she was just saying she loved,
just loved, loved, loved when we came over, loved to
see family, wanted to play. She was still pretty young
(49:27):
then as well.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Would you say they were a happy family?
Speaker 11 (49:33):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Absolutely, This was before William went missing and the police investigation.
Obviously we both know what happened to Well, no, neither.
We don't know what happened to William. William went missing.
You remember that.
Speaker 9 (49:57):
I found out via Facebook book I was studying and
what I was meant to be studying, and I was
on Facebook and I saw the picture that came up
from I think New South Wales Police that there was
a missing boy and I remember thinking, no, it can't be.
But I don't think I understood the gravity at that
(50:19):
moment of what was happening. That took days, I think
to realize, and I went up there shortly after.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
How long after?
Speaker 9 (50:30):
I think it took me a couple of days to
get up there, and then I saw my uncle and
my aunt and it became apparent that this was a
real situation and it wasn't good.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
And in the years since then, you stayed close to
your cousin.
Speaker 4 (50:59):
Yes, how was she going?
Speaker 9 (51:12):
This is probably really bad. But I always tried to
like not focus on William. I don't know, It's trauma
is a difficult thing for a kid to process. So
my relationship was always to just treat her as I
(51:35):
had always done and try and not highlight the trauma
that had happened in her life and to give her
the most normal relationship with people. So we didn't really
talk about it. I just tried to carry on and
(51:58):
give her, you know, just that normalacy.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Can I maybe skip forward in time, because obviously you
would have sent the newspapers the same way everyone saw
the newspapers about the police having a new suspect.
Speaker 9 (52:15):
Yeah, but then I was contacted by the police, and
can you tell me what happened? I received an email
from my dad telling me to contact these detectives because
they wanted to speak to me. I had a formal,
an informal telephone conversation with two detectives and seemed very casual,
(52:38):
very kind of almost lighthearted to start with. They asked
me what I thought had happened, and they asked me
what my Nana thought had happened. And you know, Nana
has always been the same, like she'd only ever really
thought whoever they had just you know, recently highlighted as
(52:59):
a suspect might be the person. And then they just
went to, well, what do you think do you think
he was just plucked out of thin air? And I
think they suggested that aliens had beamed him up and
I said, well, obviously not. And then they were asking
me about my aunt and uncle specifically and how they
(53:24):
were with William and my cousin, and they tried to lead,
well do they try to leave me? They tried to
suggest that children can misbehave and how my aunt and
uncle managed that, and I started to realize that they
were actually looking at them, and I asked them that
(53:49):
and they.
Speaker 14 (53:49):
Said, yes, how did you feel about that? Shook? It
really just shook me.
Speaker 9 (54:00):
I couldn't believe it, and I was shaking, and I
got off the phone and I think I screamed into
the air because it's just it was so frustrating the
way that they had constructed this conversation without I suppose
(54:21):
being I mean, they're the police, They're not going to
be very transparent in situations like that. But I feel
like they'd led me down a path. And I called
my aunt immediately after, and I said, they're looking at
you and Nana. Actually at that point they were suggesting
(54:42):
that Nana had something to do with it as well,
and they were asking me about her death and whether
she'd said anything on her deathbed, and you know things.
That's just really it was an upsetting conversation, so I
think that's what they were trying to do. I think
they were trying to at all the cage.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
And how did your aunt respond when you told her that?
Speaker 9 (55:10):
To be honest, it seemed like it was the first
time that she'd heard that, and she was so upset
for a number of reasons, but for the most part,
she was upset the fact that they were actually just
not even looking for William. If they were looking at her,
(55:31):
I meant they were wasting their time, that they actually
didn't have any proper leaves, that they actually didn't have
any idea of what that had happened to William, and
that I think it just all hope just felt like
it had gone.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Around the time William's fostermother was facing questions at the
crime Commission, the police seized a car, a gray Masda III,
that used to be owned by Willimiam's foster Nana. William's
foster mother had told police she drove that car to
look for him on the morning when William was reported missing.
Speaker 9 (56:10):
The police just seized it one day. They just turned up.
It was at my partner's parents' house, and they just
turned up with a cameraman and a tow truck and
took it.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
And the cameraman who turned up with the tow truck
was to film themselves seizing the car.
Speaker 4 (56:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
And did you ever see the footage that they took
of themselves seizing.
Speaker 9 (56:37):
The car when it aired on the news?
Speaker 1 (56:40):
Yes, And we told that was going to be released
to the media. That footage of the car being seized
was sent to journalists. Around the same time as police
launched the latest huge forensic search of the area around
(57:04):
where William went missing. It's carefully stage managed.
Speaker 5 (57:09):
David Laidlaw laid Law Detective, Chief Inspector at the Homicide Squad.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
The police film themselves at work and send this footage
to the TV stations.
Speaker 5 (57:22):
We are here today at Kendall in relation to the
circumstances of surrounding William missing from this residents seven years ago.
The investigative team is here together with the local detectives
and also with the Fornzy personnel to have another look
at the scene here and also the area around Kendall.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
This search for evidence in the car and outside Kendall
takes place months after that front page story saying police
are confident they've cracked the case, and those detectives told
William's foster mother, we know why it happened, we know
how it happened, and we know where he is.
Speaker 9 (58:17):
They're looking for evidence.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
So how long did they have the car for?
Speaker 9 (58:22):
Over twelve months? They said it had to go to
the panel beater, and they sent me through the panel
beater's report.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
So they've done enough work to the car that it
had to be substantially repaired afterwards.
Speaker 9 (58:40):
Yeah, but it seems to me that almost every panel
in the car was replaced.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
I've seen the list of repairs to that MASDA. The
front bumper, the headlights, new door handles, new door mirror,
new rear bumper, new cabin and boot trims. The list
goes on. It looked like the police took that car
to pieces and found nothing, which is all the police
(59:07):
find in their excavation of the area around Kendall where
William was reported missing. At which point you have to
ask when does legitimate police investigation and putting pressure on
a suspect trip over into harassment or malicious prosecution of
(59:29):
the kind we've seen before in the William Tyrrell investigation
with the very first suspect, the washing machine repairman Bill Spedding.
The police would go on to charge William's foster parents
with lying during their questioning by the Crime Commission, but
both foster parents would be found not guilty. That would
(59:53):
take more rounds of court hearings and hostile headlines, and
after the last of these, the foster parents will go
home to a silent house that no longer has any
children in it. While I catch the lift down from
the courtroom to the ground floor along with the detectives
(01:00:15):
from the strikeforce. Inside, we all stand cramped together, me,
the cops in their dark suits, and a few lawyers.
I will look at the lead detective, David Laidlaw and say, honestly,
I wasn't expecting a not guilty result. He looks at
me and is defiant, almost dismissing the court verdict. He says,
(01:00:38):
common sense did not prevail. The lift doors open and
we walk out in silence. Looking back on everything that
has happened, How do you feel now?
Speaker 9 (01:01:02):
I still feel really frustrated and angry, angry at who,
Angry at whoever took William and started this and ruined
(01:01:23):
so many lives, Angry at the police in recent years,
Frustrated that they haven't found anything. One of my nana's
(01:01:47):
greatest regrets, in what she would say in the moments
before she passed away, was that she would never know,
but for what it's done to my family, and it's changed.
It just turned everyone's lives upside down completely and life
(01:02:10):
will never be the same, and we'll leave it there.
Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
But that isn't the end. I mentioned how the police
sent a brief of evidence to the state's Director of
Public Prosecutions seeking advice on whether to charge William's foster
mother over disposing of his body. Well, the DPP did
look at it and started asking questions. The detectives were
(01:02:47):
sent back to talk to some of the witnesses again,
asking things like did Williams foster mother have access to
any other cars that morning? That took days, which turned
into weeks, which turned into months, then silence, and then
the new South Wales Police Force asked the DPP to
(01:03:10):
suspend its consideration of the brief of evidence until the
end of the inquest into William's disappearance, which is still
running and will now come back next week for what
it says will be its final hearing and we will
be there. That's in the next episode of Witness William Tyrrell.
(01:03:38):
A lot of different people have been involved in making
this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young.
The sound design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have
been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar, Phoebe Zakowski Wallace and
Tabby Wilson. Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor.
(01:03:59):
Voice acting in this episode by Bethbox. Our lawyer is
Stephen Coombs, the editor at news dot com dot au
is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan box
Right, you've done this before. Yeah, all good, okay. Thanks.
September twenty twenty one, you break the story police close
in on a new suspect, William Copp's confident they have
cracked the case. How did that come about?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So I bump into somebody and I've got to be
very careful, obviously. This is the source.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Mark Murray, or Moz to his friends, is the crime
editor at Sydney's Daily Telegraph newspaper. Moz is old school.
You'll often find him on the phone or in the pub,
usually halfway through telling a long story about Sydney's underworld.
And he's been working the crime beat in this city
for as long as I have been alive. And for
(00:52):
my money, Moz is the best crime reporter in New
South Wales.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I literally bump into somebody who is not a detective,
was not even based at Paramount of Police headquarters where
all the detectives are. I just want to establish that
this person somehow knew quite a lot about the new
way the investigation was.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Going in the police.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Person in the police yes, okay, but not a detective.
But anyway, somebody in the police force who said, look,
this is what's happening now. I believe that William went
over the balcony, that the foster mother was involved, and
(01:41):
quite a few details full disclosure.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I like mos He and I go back. We're colleagues
and have been rivals, each trying to break bigger stories
for our different newspapers. And in the past couple of years,
I've overseen another podcast where mos is one of the hosts.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And I'm paranoid. Like everybody, I didn't want to talk
on the phone this person. I didn't ring police because
I didn't want anyone having their phone records matched up
to when this story potentially comes out. So I was
in here and I was I ran to Ben, you know,
the editor, Yeah, And I told him this whole story
is mind blowing. This is probably the biggest mystery in
(02:20):
Australia currently, the biggest crime story mystery. And here we
have this massive new information on it. And I said,
I've got to confirm it, but I've got to be
careful how I go about it. And he said, okay.
And I'm still thinking, who the fuck do I ring here?
Right one? I don't want somebody shutting me down or
(02:43):
that I want to make sure I don't stuff up
in investigation like that is every crime report is primary.
You don't want to stuff up an investigation because one,
you don't want to see somebody get away with something.
And to no one's going to talk to you again.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
And this scoop Mores is describing it was always going
to get attention. It's the moment the police went public
saying they were looking at William Toole's foster mother as
a suspect. Only the way that happened, at least as
Mos tells it, this scoop was a stuff up, just
(03:18):
not his.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So I was in the office ben and I and
he said, oh, maybe i'd make a call or two. Yeah, right,
And he comes out like an hour two hours later,
he said, I've run that past and I don't know who.
And he said, we're find a runner. And I said,
you're sure it's not going to stuff anybody up. He said,
(03:40):
it's it's one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
You're okay.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
And I then made no more calls because I thought
it was one hundred percent. It was sweet. So I
wrote the story. Said to Benner, were going to run
in a day or two. He said, oh, you know what,
let's just run up tomorrow and go okay. I said,
are you sure it's okay? He said, yeah, sure, it's sweet.
I'm thinking, well, I'm not going to ring anyone because
I know he says it's fine. So I thought all
(04:03):
the major players had been notified, right, investigators, everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
But everybody hadn't been notified that MOS's story was coming.
And that matters because we're talking about a live police
investigation into a missing child, meaning detectives are still working
the case. They're talking to witnesses, they're choosing what to
tell people and what not to tell them, and they
(04:30):
have covert surveillance running.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And in the end, we put it up at about.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Eight o'clock and so you published it.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And my phone went nuts. And it's a turtle miscommunication
somewhere along the hierarchy chain.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So they didn't know the story was coming.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
They didn't know the story. So the cops in homicide,
particularly running the investigator running the investigation, didn't know, didn't know.
So that would be Dave Laidlaw right, who's now still
in charge. He had no idea. Now I've had known
him again for years. It just meant that everyone in
homicide believed I'd broken the golden rule, you know, potentially
(05:14):
an investigation, that's the golden rule, and that is the
golden ruar.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So in this case, the cop running the investigation into
William's disappearance didn't know that you were going to run this.
His boss who's the head of homicide, didn't know you
were going to run this. My understanding is the assistant
commissioner didn't know, and the relevant deputy commissioner didn't know either.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yes, subsequently I found that out. Yeah, but sickening feeling.
It's really because this one that's my lifeblood, is your
reputation and your contacts, and there was anger, There was
serious anger.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
So the question is who should be the target of
that anger. Who's to blame for this stuff up that
might have damaged the William Tyrrell investigation?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Even to this day, people would like to know the
initial source.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
But it's not just the initial source, is it. Because
the initial source with what you do, maybe has a
casual conversation with you, and that is your job, and
that's that happens. But there's also the secondary source who
confirms it to your editor. So there's two sources of
this league, which the.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
More importantly saying it is okay, The.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Thing about the story was it was pretty strong, like
it wasn't you know. It starts off police zero in
on a new person of interest, fair enough, who they
believe is responsible for the death and disappearance of William Tyrell.
Police are now confident they will solve the mystery of
the disappearance. A new investigation has uncovered clues previously not explored.
(07:01):
And although at the start you're talking about a person
of interest, by midpoint through the article you're calling that
person a suspect. You're not naming them, but you're saying
the cops suspect this person is.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Respect If wish we'd actually said that it's on the
foster appearance now, I think we probably could have gone
with it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
It was pretty obvious who you were talking about. I
mean everybody knew. Everybody did know, because as soon as
Mozzy's article is published, other reporters are calling the police force,
who do confirm their new suspect is William's foster mother.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Good afternoon, There have been major developments in the William
Terrell investigation today, and as we go to wear this afternoon,
this is what we know. The toddler's foster mother is
now the key person of interest in his disappearance.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The key person of interest, despite as we now know
from the inquest, the police having no forensic or witness
evidence to support that. And all of this attention also
explode what had actually been a careful, gradual strategy to
apply pressure to William's foster mother through other leaks to
(08:09):
the media and select interviews with chosen reporters.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
So if anyone out there is thinking I might have
gotten away with this, what's your message?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
They haven't like this Sky News interview with David Laidlaw,
the new lead detective. You know what happened, don't you?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
You know who it is.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
We have thoughts about what occurred to William, Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Is and who was responsible?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yes. The police strategy was to slowly ratchet up the
pressure while all the time the foster parents' house and
car and telephones are being recorded with covert surveillance. It's
exactly the same kind of tactics that led to the
downfall of the previous lead detective, Gary Jubilin. But Moz's
(08:57):
front page story blows up without warning, right in the
middle of this careful strategy.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I was told, in no uncertain terms, an explosion has
gone on. There is which hunts, there is anger, and
I can understand because this is a huge case. They're
trying to solve the case of a missing boy at
a little child, and no matter what we say, and
(09:25):
how no matter what they say, and that every case
is equal, every murder is equal, every it isn't emotion
gets you know, there's a little child, you know. And
so to have their strategy stuffed up innocently bye whoever,
(09:47):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I take issue with that because, yeah, you may have
stuffed up their strategy innocently, because you as a journalist,
to writing what you've been told, and what you've been
told by someone in the police is good to go. Yeah.
But that person who your editor, Ben English spoke.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
To, he's spoken in more than one and I might
have done, and I've got to be you know he
has he has sources that still amaze me.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right, But that person who to have known that must
almost certainly have been in the police themselves and confirmed
it to Ben and said, yeah, you can go with that.
That person is not acting innocently.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
No, And I want yeah, I can't answer that because
I don't know the person.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
I spoke to. Mozzy's editor Ben English, and he's not
going to reveal his source, and I wouldn't expect him to.
But it's not really about Ben. It's about those people
caught up in the fallout.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And I've crequently found out it didn't stuff up any investigation.
In fact, there was a media strategier almost in place
to use the telegraph exactly the way we did it,
except for it didn't match their timetable.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
There is one other aspect to this in terms of
the fall out is that William's biological foster parents weren't
told this story was coming before it came, and there's
an element of emotional damage done by that.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, which again I didn't know. Well, I'd imagine the
foster parents who were target of the investigation. I thought,
when you're given the good to go, I would have
thought that there was something in place, and like I
(11:57):
think that there still would have been saw something in
their house no matter what there were you. Yeah, so
that wouldn't have bagged that part up the emotional to
the biological paincheer. I can see where you're coming from,
and that's something I think we hadn't probably explored enough.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
But I don't think it's on you. Moss says it's
taken him years to repair his reputation and his relationship
with some of the detectives in the homicide squad. So
he's another person who suffered at least a little in
the fallout from the way police have handled the William
(12:38):
Tyrle investigation. And talking to Moz, I'm starting to think
how this is only the latest in a history of
leaks from the police force in this case, going right
back to the first raids on Bill Spedding, to Bill's arrest,
the details of what he was wrongly charged with, the
existence of other potential suspect that was leaked, as was
(13:02):
Gary Jubilin being taken off the investigation. And then there's
this leak about the police suddenly suspecting William's foster mother,
which will in turn be followed by another leak. Good evening.
Speaker 6 (13:16):
We begin tonight with breaking news on one of Australia's
most baffling cases.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
This time revealing that police have sent a brief of
evidence to the States Director of Public Prosecutions.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
Nine News can reveal detectives now believe there's enough evidence
to charge the toddler's foster mother over his disappearance.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
This news breaking in June last year, a day after
what would have been William's twelfth birthday.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Talking about leaks, that's the one that's caused more consternation
than anyone. That they had handed a brief to the DPP.
Now that was even a bigger leak because I think
only seven people knew, and I know there was an
internal investigation over there. So I think the reporter involved
in that, she's been sent to Coventry. I know it
(14:04):
actually feels because they're furious about that.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And if the police are furious, it's because these leaks
keep threatening to damage the investigation into who took three
year old William Tyrell, who kind of gets forgotten in
the storm of headlines and the internal politics in which
this whole case has played out over the past decade.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think Tyrrell has no boundaries to national It's like
one of those stories that captures the whole nation. It
just doesn't. It's not just a Sydney or Telegraph story,
don't you think. And certain reporters have become obsessed, haven't they.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I'm not innocent within this. I'm a reporter. I like leaks,
like being leaked to but standing back, I can see
how innocent lives get caught up in the explosion when
these bombs go off on the front pages, or because
someone couldn't keep their mouth shut on a phone call
(15:17):
with a reporter or an editor. And I can see
how these leaks also feed the damage and suspicion surrounding
this investigation, as have other leaks which are more illicit
and more damaging and where the police are not the
(15:37):
only guilty party. From news dot com dot Au. This
is witness William Tyrell episode ten. The suspect.
Speaker 7 (15:55):
Had a higher yep, right, oh thanks, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
This is a woman called Alana Smith speaking to another
colleague of mine, the journalist Caroline Overington, in twenty twenty one,
the same year MOS broke that story about police now
looking at William's foster mother.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
All right, let's go it comes true.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Alana has some skin in the game here. She once
went to court arguing for the right to publicly identify
William Tyrol as a foster child when the government was
refusing to let that happen, which is partly why Caroline
wanted to talk to her.
Speaker 8 (16:33):
It's just audios, a podcast is just voyey.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
That's not what interested me though, listening to this recording,
I'm interested in one particular moment.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
We don't need to clear everything off, but do you
want to just move that computer?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Which happens while they're still setting up the interview, and
we might need this cheering.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
Here's some stuff on us from the group perfect stanky,
but you don't know.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Alana says, there's some stuff on here from the brief
and hands it over. The brief is the brief of evidence,
meaning all of the evidence the police have gathered in
this case for the inquest into William's disappearance, and which
somehow leaked, got into the papers and ended up circling
(17:22):
around the internet. And that matters because this is evidence
from a police investigation which today is still ongoing. And
these leaked documents include police statements and transcripts of interviews
with witnesses, including William's foster parents, and their phone records
(17:44):
and photographs marked protected and confidential, all of which, if
it becomes public, can only undermine the police and the
inquest and their chances of bringing to justice whoever it
was who took William. And Alana must know she's not
(18:05):
supposed to just hand this stuff over listen again.
Speaker 9 (18:10):
There's some stuff on these from the proof perfect thank you, but.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
There, she says, but you don't know I have that.
Alana has her own take on William's disappearance. She's gone
online herself a lot, calling William's foster parents quote dirty
fucking parasites, and calling Gary Jubilin a corrupt, fucking motherfucker
(18:40):
and worse. I shouldn't need to say this, but there's
no evidence to back up her insults, and I'm only
mentioning them to demonstrate just how dirty and polluted everything
surrounding this case has got.
Speaker 10 (18:57):
So.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I called Alana, but she didn't answer, sir. Then she
called me back, Hello, Hello, Dan, Hi Alana, how are
you doing? Yes? Good, thank you.
Speaker 11 (19:09):
I just want to let you know that I'm recording
the conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
That's fine, you're happy if I record it as well.
Of course, Alana has written things about me online also.
Since starting this series, we've exchanged messages on Facebook in
which she's called me assy but definitely not classy. She's
called me a weak ass journo and that it's about
time I was brought into line.
Speaker 11 (19:35):
This will be a one way conversation, but I'm all used.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Dan, When you say one way conversation.
Speaker 11 (19:40):
How do you mean, well, it'll be you talking because
I truly have nothing, honestly nothing to say to you.
I've articulated my thoughts and my feelings about what you
and your current colleagues are doing and how you are stewing,
and I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
D Alana says, I'm skewing the.
Speaker 11 (20:02):
Facts, the facts between within that brief of evidence.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
Because there is nothing that I have further need to
say to you.
Speaker 11 (20:13):
There isn't already abundantly clear within the documents.
Speaker 12 (20:17):
Sure you're getting cliques, Sure you're getting paid, Sure you're hanging.
Speaker 11 (20:22):
Out with the fucking bee boys, but your morals.
Speaker 7 (20:26):
And your ethics are in the fucking gutter, and shame
on you, Dan Box.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Basically, Alana doesn't like the way we've made this podcast.
Speaker 11 (20:37):
What is it that you fucking want from me?
Speaker 7 (20:40):
Apart from the truth, and I'm giving it to you.
I'd have you and Gary Jubilan in a quarter of
law in a fucking heartbeat.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
She says, we're pursuing a narrative one that she does
not agree with.
Speaker 7 (20:56):
Shame on you because you use every goddamn day to
get out of bed and put your fucking fancy pants
on and continue to go down this contractual sheep fuckery.
And there's only one person to blame apart from yourself. You, you, You,
yourself and yourself can have nothing to say.
Speaker 12 (21:20):
And the people that I'm going to say it to.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I said it online.
Speaker 7 (21:25):
Actually I said shit about you on an open from
I went and said that listen.
Speaker 10 (21:30):
I hope we're recorded.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I truly hope were recorded.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Oh yeah, we are. Yeah, you said you said you're recording,
and I am as well.
Speaker 7 (21:38):
And I'll be a push for a fucking gonedab inquiry one.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Way or another, come hell or high water. Can I
ask you antion trial alone? Can I ask you something?
Speaker 7 (21:53):
Well, whether you can ask or I'll allow you to ask.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Me, whether I yeah, one hundred percent, You don't have
to answer. I just needed to ask. There's a couple
of things I'm interested in. You talked about putting things,
putting things online. You've you've obviously said a lot about
William's foster parents. You've said their murderers, you've said their pedophiles,
and so on.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
Yep, sure, we got taken a call over and got fucking.
Speaker 11 (22:14):
Tried about it.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
You know I've been yeah, and.
Speaker 11 (22:17):
We'll go again, because fucking we'll go again.
Speaker 8 (22:20):
If that's getting into court, Pushing the boundaries is the
only fucking what.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
You don't have any evidence of that.
Speaker 12 (22:26):
How you got the fucking files?
Speaker 8 (22:28):
How I got the fucking files?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
That's actually my second question. That's the second thing I'm
interested in. You have shared documents from the brief of
evidence with journalists.
Speaker 7 (22:40):
So what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
I've got you on tape doing it, Alana, Sure, sure.
Speaker 12 (22:45):
And if I have, then if I have, then it's
been in private.
Speaker 11 (22:49):
And that's what journalists do.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
But why have you shared documents from the kid? But why?
Why did you share documents from the brief of evidence
in a live homicide and investigation?
Speaker 7 (23:01):
The same reason I started a petition, the same reason
I told a Supreme Court judge to go fuck himself,
The same reason I continue to argue the point to
you in every other journo, the same reason.
Speaker 12 (23:15):
Why I continue to tell you that you're a lie
life scumbag on a moral principle, because there's a fucking
child missing in state care.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You shared those You shared those police documents.
Speaker 12 (23:28):
Because I don't give a shit you want to get
with titious.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I'm not I'm definitely not threatening. I'm just trying to
understand this.
Speaker 7 (23:39):
Quite okay for you to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I definitely I'm not threatening. I've got no interest in
legal action. But I am trying to understand why you would.
Speaker 7 (23:47):
Share documents, Why.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You'd share police documents from a live homicide investigation other reporters.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
Why do you receive other people's brief of evidence documents
in your ant in book.
Speaker 12 (24:00):
Then before you ask the.
Speaker 7 (24:02):
Questions of me, how about you make sure that your
own fucking bed, you're an in box, your own nests
is clean.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Sent mements. But there's a difference between receiving them and
sharing them. And I'm just curious as to you.
Speaker 7 (24:19):
And will argue that point out like I did in
a criminal trial or any other trials.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
No, there's no criminal trial because I don't even know
if there's a criminal offense. But I am interested in
why you didn't.
Speaker 7 (24:30):
I'm baiting.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
It's baiting.
Speaker 12 (24:33):
This has gone along enough. This is stupid, absolutely stupid,
one way or another, regardless whether what I've said, regardless
of who is guilty.
Speaker 7 (24:47):
What you're doing, and the narrative in which you're running
is filthy.
Speaker 9 (24:53):
That's it.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
You want to get higher. You want to understand why
I've done certain things. I've just given you. I've just list.
You asked me a question, and I've given you an honest, tenant,
ten point answer as.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
To why I do the things that.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I do because you think it's in them. Do you
think it's in the public interest?
Speaker 7 (25:09):
Not for a dirty pay packet, Not for a dirty
old fucking paypacketdre not to sell my soul, not to
get a fucking leg up in the media, fucking not
to not to get on jump onto the biggest fucking
case thereies to making the air for yourself in your
new job.
Speaker 8 (25:26):
I do everything that I do authentically from my fucking
heart because of those children.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Have you thought about the possible damage you might do
to the investigation by sharing those documents?
Speaker 7 (25:38):
The investigation knows who I am, they know where I live.
Speaker 8 (25:43):
There's been nothing come at me. What were the facts?
What were the context?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
What was yet? What?
Speaker 8 (25:51):
Let's put it in context?
Speaker 1 (25:52):
So is that why you shared them alone? So you
what is that why you shared them so people will
understand the facts.
Speaker 7 (26:00):
Probably not even about that.
Speaker 8 (26:02):
It's about the child.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
By child Alana means I think it's about William.
Speaker 7 (26:09):
How many times I said it's about the child, and
about the child, about child, about child, about the child,
about child, about child.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Why do you care so much about William?
Speaker 7 (26:18):
Because I do because of what's happening to him, the
way in which it's happened, the ass covering that the
government do, the gas lighting that they do, the way
that the media in which cover it or don't cover it,
the way in which the government and the Parliament use
and abuse legislation to protect their own fucking goddamn mars.
Speaker 8 (26:40):
There's a whole myriad of reasons.
Speaker 7 (26:41):
Why I want to be invested or why I am,
apart from the fact that I too was a little
William at one stage and fucking forcibly removed from my mother.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Like William, Alana was taken from her birth family and
put into foster care. Her experience of that was awful,
and I don't pretend to understand what she's been through.
But she and I are going to have to agree
to disagree on other things.
Speaker 7 (27:11):
I do later at nights sometimes and I think to myself,
Dan is an unredeemable, fucking low life prick. But I
still don't understand why he's chosen the road that he has.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
So are you asking me why we're doing what we're doing.
Speaker 7 (27:26):
Why are you doing what you're doing with the narrative
in which you're doing it, Dan.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Look, the only narrative we're trying to tell is to
look at the investigation from the beginning and what was
done right and what was done wrong. That's been our
starting point.
Speaker 8 (27:41):
There needs to be an inquiry. What do you think
about an inquiry on record?
Speaker 1 (27:45):
I'd love to see a public inquiry into that one,
because it's not really my job. My job is to
report the facts and not to call for things.
Speaker 7 (27:54):
Were you pushing an advocating for one?
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Because I'm not an advocate. I'm a journalist and my
job is to report the facts as best we can.
It's not my job to You haven't been doing that,
you know, I promise you. We've been trying to listening back.
I think that's a weak answer, So Alana, if you're listening,
I would love to see a public inquiry into the
(28:19):
William Tyran investigation. And ten years on with no answers
about what happened to him, I think there should be
an inquiry. And I know from speaking to them for
this podcast. That Bill Spedding and Gary Jubilin they both
think the same. There's one last thing I asked, Alana,
(28:42):
where did you get the brief of evidence from? Aline?
Speaker 7 (28:46):
Listen, I've been a part, I've been an advocate for
the Biological Family for the last I.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Was told you. I was told you got them from
the Biological family.
Speaker 8 (28:57):
Listen, not done at all? Where did I get the
brief of evidence?
Speaker 7 (29:00):
Where do I get any court documents?
Speaker 8 (29:03):
Where do I get any family information?
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So you got it from the Biological Family? Are you?
Speaker 9 (29:07):
How dare you?
Speaker 7 (29:08):
Because I worked as an advocate for that fucking family
and I continue to do that.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Look, it's no criticism, it's I'm curious. So you got
it from the Biological Family.
Speaker 7 (29:18):
I'm saying I did.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I'm not saying I'm told I was told you did.
Speaker 7 (29:23):
Questions because you sound stupid.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Is there anything else you wanted to say to me?
Speaker 8 (29:27):
What you fucking apart from all the fucks in and
that you set fuckery and that that you're morally along
in what you're doing?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Now?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
No, I got all of that. Yeah, I got it.
But there is a problem here because I spoke to
Natalie Collins, William's biological grandmother, who denies giving Alana the
brief of evidence and says Alana is no longer acting
as an advocate for her family, and said some other
(29:59):
things about Alan and about William's foster parents, which I'm
not going to repeat here because they're offensive and there's
no evidence to support them, just like the things Alana's
been saying online about William's foster parents. Their insults and
they're not true. But now there are all these different voices,
(30:21):
William's birth and foster families, the police, people who say
they are advocates for something, those posting lies and abuse online,
and reporters and editors who are all talking and sharing
confidential information, getting louder and nastier in what they're saying
to each other and online. Even before that front page
(30:46):
story about William's foster mother, she and her husband had
become targets.
Speaker 7 (30:52):
Cold, cold people they are, how do they sleep at night?
Speaker 9 (30:56):
William has been murdered, cocaine addict.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I'm interested in seeing him and handcuffs.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
William Tyrrell was tortured, raped and murdered.
Speaker 12 (31:04):
Motley crew of pitophile mates pitophile rapist.
Speaker 8 (31:08):
Doc William has been murdered by his narcissistic psychopath foster
mother and the corps, then dismembered and courted for disposal
by the besotted foster father.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
These are lies, they're false, but they still added to
the pressure on the couple, who, throughout the time they
were under police investigation, were also managing the fallout of
William's disappearance on another child who was living with them
and who we can't identify for legal reasons. William's foster
(31:42):
parents were also providing emergency and respite care for other
children at the request of the state government's Department of
Community and Justice. A court will later hear from one
of the department staff saying William's foster parents were often
called upon to help out when the department was in
a jam, and the corporate view of the department was
(32:05):
that they were very responsible and trustworthy parents. But these
kids aren't always easy to look after, taken from their
birth families by the state, often dealing with their own trauma,
so that's pressure. At around the same time, the COVID
pandemic shut Australia's borders and sent Sydney into lockdown, so
(32:29):
that's pressure. Then In December twenty twenty, Williams foster nana died.
William's foster parents suspected a cop who turned up at
the funeral was wearing a wire, and they're not wrong
about being under surveillance. The police put five listening devices
and two cameras in place in the foster parents' home,
(32:51):
plus intercepts on their mobile phones, and these run for
nearly a full year, meaning in total something over sixty
thousand hours of surveillance, from which the cops gather over
one thousand hours of recordings. Among them, the police record
(33:11):
William's foster parents arranging for someone to place dummy bids
when they sell their homer auction, which frankly is stupid
and greedy and illegal, but it happens, and the cops
will charge them with dishonestly obtain financial advantage or cause
disadvantage by deception, which carries a maximum ten year prison sentence.
(33:36):
So that's pressure only. The cops later withdraw this and
the couple plead guilty to a lesser charge and a
fined three thousand dollars.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
It must feel like the police are hounding you.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
You're not going to make any comments.
Speaker 9 (33:51):
Thank you did you have anything to do with William's disappearance.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I'm not going to make any more comments. Thank you
to ices also record arguments between William's foster parents and
the child, a teenager. I can't play those recordings for
legal reasons because the police charged William's foster parents over
these recordings.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Also, are you disgusted at hearing how you spoke to
that little girl?
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Do you see how bad a look this is given
you're a person of interest in William's disappearance. I've sat
in court listening to these recordings more than once, and
their unpleasant listening. In the worst, you hear disembodied voices.
It takes a while to work out it's a child.
(34:40):
The child shouts no, go away, go away. There is
a long, indistinct drawn out crying. William's foster mother says,
get up, stand up, stand up. Then she asks the child,
where did you put the wooden spoon. The child says
it's behind there. No, please, no, The foster mother says,
(35:04):
move your hand. There's the sound of an impact. She says. Sit.
You can hear the child crying. It sounds bad, and
it is bad in court on either side, I can
sense the other journalists feel revolted, and I do too,
(35:27):
But it also sounds like a family that's not working,
where people are breaking under pressure. Also listening in the
courtroom is the former lead detective Gary Jubilin, And during
(35:48):
a break here and I go outside and we talk
about what we just heard. What did you make of that?
Speaker 13 (35:56):
The two recordings that were bled.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I did know this.
Speaker 13 (36:00):
You listen to that recording and it's confronting. There's a
child screaming. But it was a child screaming. It wasn't
there was no it wasn't someone that had lost their temper.
It wasn't the adult screaming irrationally. It was a child screaming.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Now, yeah, but a child could be screaming because you're
really hurting that child.
Speaker 13 (36:17):
That didn't sound like that.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
I we listened to that twice. For the first time.
I listened to that, and I thought, that sounds really bad.
That sounds like a child in absolute distress.
Speaker 13 (36:30):
I thought it was very interesting, and we only bearing
in mind, we heard a very small snippet, which is
obviously what the prosecution want as the worst snippet. I'm
going to call the police. That was a child that
was contained not a child that was in pain or injured.
Then it just escalated, but the child escalated it.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
We might have to agree to disagree on that. Yeah,
I heard a parent going off with their child and
a child at a distress, screaming and screaming. But if
you recorded, I don't actually feel it comes to with sites.
But if you recorded some of the of the worst
conversations I've had with my kids, they might not have
sounded much.
Speaker 13 (37:10):
I would say the same thing then, And I raised
my children in a house and no violence or threats
or whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
The police charged William's foster mother with assault and she
pleads guilty. She also pleads guilty to a second assault
charge over a kick on the same child, which happens
during another argument where the child was going to kick
another much younger child who the family were looking after.
(37:39):
The foster mother kicks the older child to stop her,
then says, now you know how it feels. Do you
think you want to make that decision again? The older
child cries, and later on a telephone intercept, the foster
mother tells a friend, I'm ashamed. I can't believe it happened,
(38:00):
but I lost it. In another phone call, the same day.
She says, I'm not used to being like this. I'm
not coping. The problem is we've got this investigation hanging
over our heads. The police believe we did something to William.
How do I live with that? How do I live
being looked at? When the foster mother checks the elder
(38:23):
child later, the kick doesn't leave a mark, But all
the time the cops are listening. One court will later
hear the detectives knew about this first assault with the
spoon as early as the next day because they're listening.
But they don't remove the child. In fact, they leave
(38:47):
that child living with William's foster parents for almost a
full year after And you have to ask, if the
police really believe the child is in danger, why wait
so long. And there are other recordings for which the
detectives investigating William's disappearance will charge the foster parents with intimidation,
(39:12):
but where the magistrate hearing the case will say she's
listened to the entire recordings and will say those parts
that were played in court have not been put into
their proper context by the prosecution, and that the transcript
of the recordings provided by the prosecution doesn't always match
(39:34):
the words that she heard on the recordings, and she'll
say it can hardly be said the alleged intimidation was continuous,
and that, having listened repeatedly to the whole of the recordings,
she views the child's call for help as calls for
help with cleaning her room, a frustrated young girl at
(39:56):
the end of her tether. And the magistrate will s
say the recordings aren't nice, but they don't go far
enough to demonstrate criminal intent to intimidate. And it's also
true that in court we hear only minutes or at most,
I think a couple of hours of the thousand or
(40:17):
more hours the police recorded. But outside one of the
court hearings, the police prosecutor will come out and he'll
walk over and start talking to the reporters who are
sitting about to file their stories. And the reporters will
say the tapes sound awful, and the prosecutor will say,
how he has kids, and the first time he listened
(40:40):
to them, he was chain smoking and drinking wine. And
he'll say, there's a damn sight more that I can't
share with you. And he'll say it would have been
easier for him to close the court so the hearing
took place in private, but that it's in the interests
of justice for people to hear this, and every day
the detectives investigating William's disappearance will be in the court room,
(41:04):
despite the fact that these offenses have nothing to do
with what happened to William and took place years after
he disappeared. And at one point the police prosecutor will
say in court that this case isn't about William Tyrrell.
But if it's not, and it's only about a kick
(41:26):
on a different child, then why is the strike Force here?
And later that same police prosecutor will turn up at
the inquest hearing into William's disappearance, sitting with the detectives
and talking to the police lawyers because really, these other
(41:47):
charges have everything to do with the investigation into William's disappearance.
One of the Strike Force detectives, Andrew Lonegan, will later
say this in court, saying he thinks they quote go
to the character of propensity of violence to children. But
(42:08):
most of the charges the police bring against William's parents
end with not guilty verdicts, and the couple are now
appealing others.
Speaker 10 (42:22):
A major blow for police a major victory for their
latest target, William Tyrrell's foster mother, leaving court and overwhelmed
after the magistrate let her off not guilty.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Isn't really a major victory?
Speaker 7 (42:38):
How has the pressure been these past few years?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
The pressure continues. The detectives visit the foster mother's family
and friends, asking questions had they ever seen her angry
as a parent? Ever seen her lose control? The police
investigation morphs into a joint investigation with something called the
New South Wales Crime Commission, which was set up to prevent,
(43:06):
disrupt and reduce the incidents of organized and other serious crime.
The Crime Commission works in secret. You actually can't tell
anybody you've been called there to give evidence, and it
has unrival powers. It can force people to give evidence,
(43:27):
make them answer questions. In October twenty twenty one, two
of the detectives visit William's foster mother at home to
give her an order that she's to face questions at
the Crime Commission. A court will later hear how one
of those two men, who's a short, red faced detective
(43:48):
called Andrew Lonegan, tells William's foster mother it's not personal
and we're not here to fucking bluff. The other detective
is a big, swaggering man called Scott Jamison tells her,
you'll have to live with it. We aren't guessing. We
know why, we know how, we know where he is.
(44:11):
William's foster mother says, I'm actually trying. I'm trying to breathe.
You're actually now saying I tried to hurt William. Andrew
Lonegan says, we're not saying you hurt him. Scott Jamison
says again, we're saying we know why it happened, we
know how it happened, and we know where he is.
(44:35):
But we know from the inquest that the police don't
know those things. They have no forensic or witness evidence
of what happened to William. Andrew Lonegan will later say
in court that he was telling the truth during this exchange.
(44:55):
Inside the crime commission, William's foster mother is questioned over
two days. She's asked over and over and over did
she have anything to do with William's disappearance, and over
and over she says no. While William's foster mother is
(45:18):
giving this evidence, the child who's been living with her
and her husband is at school, a detective from the
Strikeforce arrives without warning. The child doesn't know why the
detective is there. She thinks maybe it's to do with William.
The detective takes the child from class for an interview,
asking her seven hundred and fifty one questions which a
(45:42):
magistrate will later describe as being of a patently leading nature,
such as, has William's foster father ever hurt you? Has
anyone ever put you in time out? Has he ever
grabbed your neck when you tried to get out of
time out? When was that? She says, she doesn't know
(46:02):
that child will never go home to William's foster parents.
The next day, she'll call a family friend and leave
this message, which we've asked someone else to read out.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
And that's alle Else's house, a foster home, and I
want to go to your house.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
And love this one. I've seen emails from detectives on
the Strikeforce to state government officials saying they don't want
this child to have any contact with William's foster family
or friends. The police also take out an apprehended violence order,
preventing contact even phone calls. It's not certain if their
(46:43):
Christmas presents are passed on to her. And it's been
years now, during which time this child must have gone
online and seen what people have written about William's foster parents.
I've got a daughter around the same age. I look
at her and I can't imagine what being treated like
(47:06):
this would do to her. So when I look at
all the people who've been caught up in the investigation
into William's disappearance, this child is the first person I
think of, and I find myself actually hoping the police
are right about what happened to William, because at least
(47:29):
then what's happened to this child is justified, because if
the police are not right, then the damage done to
this child is just too great.
Speaker 9 (47:46):
We were just a regular family.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
This is that child's cousin. Her aunt is William's foster mother.
Tell me about William. When did you first meet him.
Speaker 9 (48:02):
I think it was not long after he came into
their care. He was only a baby. I mostly remember
him as more of a toddler. He was full of energy.
(48:22):
My nan I would always say he was full of beans,
that was her saying, and he was just happy and giggly.
He would run around the house when we were there
for occasions, being just super excited to see people and
the buzz that was happening cause it was a Christmas
or a birthday. I looked after him one time. I
(48:46):
baby sat for a few hours in an evening and
he would want to play monkey in the bed when
I put him to bed.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
There was a girl as well who we can't name.
How do you remember her from that time?
Speaker 9 (49:05):
She would dug on him when he wanted to play
monkey in the bed, and she was just saying she loved,
just loved, loved, loved when we came over, loved to
see family, wanted to play. She was still pretty young
(49:27):
then as well.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Would you say they were a happy family?
Speaker 11 (49:33):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Absolutely, This was before William went missing and the police investigation.
Obviously we both know what happened to Well, no, neither.
We don't know what happened to William. William went missing.
You remember that.
Speaker 9 (49:57):
I found out via Facebook book I was studying and
what I was meant to be studying, and I was
on Facebook and I saw the picture that came up
from I think New South Wales Police that there was
a missing boy and I remember thinking, no, it can't be.
But I don't think I understood the gravity at that
(50:19):
moment of what was happening. That took days, I think
to realize, and I went up there shortly after.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
How long after?
Speaker 9 (50:30):
I think it took me a couple of days to
get up there, and then I saw my uncle and
my aunt and it became apparent that this was a
real situation and it wasn't good.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
And in the years since then, you stayed close to
your cousin.
Speaker 4 (50:59):
Yes, how was she going?
Speaker 9 (51:12):
This is probably really bad. But I always tried to
like not focus on William. I don't know, It's trauma
is a difficult thing for a kid to process. So
my relationship was always to just treat her as I
(51:35):
had always done and try and not highlight the trauma
that had happened in her life and to give her
the most normal relationship with people. So we didn't really
talk about it. I just tried to carry on and
(51:58):
give her, you know, just that normalacy.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Can I maybe skip forward in time, because obviously you
would have sent the newspapers the same way everyone saw
the newspapers about the police having a new suspect.
Speaker 9 (52:15):
Yeah, but then I was contacted by the police, and
can you tell me what happened? I received an email
from my dad telling me to contact these detectives because
they wanted to speak to me. I had a formal,
an informal telephone conversation with two detectives and seemed very casual,
(52:38):
very kind of almost lighthearted to start with. They asked
me what I thought had happened, and they asked me
what my Nana thought had happened. And you know, Nana
has always been the same, like she'd only ever really
thought whoever they had just you know, recently highlighted as
(52:59):
a suspect might be the person. And then they just
went to, well, what do you think do you think
he was just plucked out of thin air? And I
think they suggested that aliens had beamed him up and
I said, well, obviously not. And then they were asking
me about my aunt and uncle specifically and how they
(53:24):
were with William and my cousin, and they tried to lead,
well do they try to leave me? They tried to
suggest that children can misbehave and how my aunt and
uncle managed that, and I started to realize that they
were actually looking at them, and I asked them that
(53:49):
and they.
Speaker 14 (53:49):
Said, yes, how did you feel about that? Shook? It
really just shook me.
Speaker 9 (54:00):
I couldn't believe it, and I was shaking, and I
got off the phone and I think I screamed into
the air because it's just it was so frustrating the
way that they had constructed this conversation without I suppose
(54:21):
being I mean, they're the police, They're not going to
be very transparent in situations like that. But I feel
like they'd led me down a path. And I called
my aunt immediately after, and I said, they're looking at
you and Nana. Actually at that point they were suggesting
(54:42):
that Nana had something to do with it as well,
and they were asking me about her death and whether
she'd said anything on her deathbed, and you know things.
That's just really it was an upsetting conversation, so I
think that's what they were trying to do. I think
they were trying to at all the cage.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
And how did your aunt respond when you told her that?
Speaker 9 (55:10):
To be honest, it seemed like it was the first
time that she'd heard that, and she was so upset
for a number of reasons, but for the most part,
she was upset the fact that they were actually just
not even looking for William. If they were looking at her,
(55:31):
I meant they were wasting their time, that they actually
didn't have any proper leaves, that they actually didn't have
any idea of what that had happened to William, and
that I think it just all hope just felt like
it had gone.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
Around the time William's fostermother was facing questions at the
crime Commission, the police seized a car, a gray Masda III,
that used to be owned by Willimiam's foster Nana. William's
foster mother had told police she drove that car to
look for him on the morning when William was reported missing.
Speaker 9 (56:10):
The police just seized it one day. They just turned up.
It was at my partner's parents' house, and they just
turned up with a cameraman and a tow truck and
took it.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
And the cameraman who turned up with the tow truck
was to film themselves seizing the car.
Speaker 4 (56:33):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
And did you ever see the footage that they took
of themselves seizing.
Speaker 9 (56:37):
The car when it aired on the news?
Speaker 1 (56:40):
Yes, And we told that was going to be released
to the media. That footage of the car being seized
was sent to journalists. Around the same time as police
launched the latest huge forensic search of the area around
(57:04):
where William went missing. It's carefully stage managed.
Speaker 5 (57:09):
David Laidlaw laid Law Detective, Chief Inspector at the Homicide Squad.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
The police film themselves at work and send this footage
to the TV stations.
Speaker 5 (57:22):
We are here today at Kendall in relation to the
circumstances of surrounding William missing from this residents seven years ago.
The investigative team is here together with the local detectives
and also with the Fornzy personnel to have another look
at the scene here and also the area around Kendall.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
This search for evidence in the car and outside Kendall
takes place months after that front page story saying police
are confident they've cracked the case, and those detectives told
William's foster mother, we know why it happened, we know
how it happened, and we know where he is.
Speaker 9 (58:17):
They're looking for evidence.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
So how long did they have the car for?
Speaker 9 (58:22):
Over twelve months? They said it had to go to
the panel beater, and they sent me through the panel
beater's report.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
So they've done enough work to the car that it
had to be substantially repaired afterwards.
Speaker 9 (58:40):
Yeah, but it seems to me that almost every panel
in the car was replaced.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
I've seen the list of repairs to that MASDA. The
front bumper, the headlights, new door handles, new door mirror,
new rear bumper, new cabin and boot trims. The list
goes on. It looked like the police took that car
to pieces and found nothing, which is all the police
(59:07):
find in their excavation of the area around Kendall where
William was reported missing. At which point you have to
ask when does legitimate police investigation and putting pressure on
a suspect trip over into harassment or malicious prosecution of
(59:29):
the kind we've seen before in the William Tyrrell investigation
with the very first suspect, the washing machine repairman Bill Spedding.
The police would go on to charge William's foster parents
with lying during their questioning by the Crime Commission, but
both foster parents would be found not guilty. That would
(59:53):
take more rounds of court hearings and hostile headlines, and
after the last of these, the foster parents will go
home to a silent house that no longer has any
children in it. While I catch the lift down from
the courtroom to the ground floor along with the detectives
(01:00:15):
from the strikeforce. Inside, we all stand cramped together, me,
the cops in their dark suits, and a few lawyers.
I will look at the lead detective, David Laidlaw and say, honestly,
I wasn't expecting a not guilty result. He looks at
me and is defiant, almost dismissing the court verdict. He says,
(01:00:38):
common sense did not prevail. The lift doors open and
we walk out in silence. Looking back on everything that
has happened, How do you feel now?
Speaker 9 (01:01:02):
I still feel really frustrated and angry, angry at who,
Angry at whoever took William and started this and ruined
(01:01:23):
so many lives, Angry at the police in recent years,
Frustrated that they haven't found anything. One of my nana's
(01:01:47):
greatest regrets, in what she would say in the moments
before she passed away, was that she would never know,
but for what it's done to my family, and it's changed.
It just turned everyone's lives upside down completely and life
(01:02:10):
will never be the same, and we'll leave it there.
Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
But that isn't the end. I mentioned how the police
sent a brief of evidence to the state's Director of
Public Prosecutions seeking advice on whether to charge William's foster
mother over disposing of his body. Well, the DPP did
look at it and started asking questions. The detectives were
(01:02:47):
sent back to talk to some of the witnesses again,
asking things like did Williams foster mother have access to
any other cars that morning? That took days, which turned
into weeks, which turned into months, then silence, and then
the new South Wales Police Force asked the DPP to
(01:03:10):
suspend its consideration of the brief of evidence until the
end of the inquest into William's disappearance, which is still
running and will now come back next week for what
it says will be its final hearing and we will
be there. That's in the next episode of Witness William Tyrrell.
(01:03:38):
A lot of different people have been involved in making
this series. Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young.
The sound design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have
been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar, Phoebe Zakowski Wallace and
Tabby Wilson. Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor.
(01:03:59):
Voice acting in this episode by Bethbox. Our lawyer is
Stephen Coombs, the editor at news dot com dot au
is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan box
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.