March 10, 2025 • 43 mins
It was International Women's Day over the weekend and Robbie Katter had some interesting thoughts about the celebration. We unpack his feedback as well as discuss some new research about the split of domestic chores. Plus, we ask the question: what are the unusual things your partner does to 'help' when you're expecting guests?
Also, why after a weekend of digesting With Love, Meghan — and some quickles sprinkled with flowers — it’s clear that the royal family made a big mistake. We explain why.
And, can someone please explain what SNARF is? We hate to break it to you, but it’s all over your phone and might be the reason you're utterly exhausted.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
that this podcast is recorded on I promise that it's
only like two more days. I'm allowed to reference Meghan
and everything if her TV show is a legitimate hit.
Partly it's snaff bit because the people who hater will
watch it and go back, But the actual show itself
(00:35):
is so inoffensive and pleasant. Hello and welcome to MoMA
Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking about
on Monday, the tenth of March. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And on the show today we all got exactly what
we wanted for International Women's Day, Validation that yes, we
do do absolutely everything, and some helpful feedback from Rob Catter. Also,
why after a weekend of digesting with love Meghan and
some wickles sprinkled with flowers, It's clear that the royal
family made a big mistake and what is snuff? We
(01:17):
hate to break it to you, but it's all over
your phone. But first, I still love you, and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
This is exhausting, you know, like we're never getting that
together like ever No.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It hps, you missed it.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Ben Afleck continues to be a lazy boy by dipping
back into his bag of ex wives called Jennifer. The
gossip over the weekend was that now his Jennifer Lopez
divorce has been finalized, he is sniffing around the original
Jennifer ex wife, Ghana. Page six published photos of Affleck
and Jennifer Ghana sharing a laugh at their son's paintball party,
(01:56):
and the next day a source told the outlet that
Affleck would love another chance. The insider added that the
actor would definitely be open to giving things another shot
with Jen if the timing is ever right, but that
he knows it's just not realistic time in their lives,
which is a bit of a weird thing to say,
because Jennifer Ghana has been dating a businessman called John Miller.
(02:17):
He's like the heir to a big Hamburger franchise. She's
been dating him since twenty eighteen, a little bit on
and off, but they're currently on. My question is.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Why you missed the part about the body language expert
who had some things to say about how when men
and women hetero men and women usually hug They keep
their pelviss apart to indicate space and not a romantic investment.
But their pelvis is rubbed, which is.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
But that's because they have rubbed before exactly, and so
they have muscle memory of rubbing.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I think that Jennifer Ghana is way too smart to
go anywhere in that.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Ever, Again, I agree with you one hundred percent, but
it reminded me of a certain type of man and
perhaps woman who exclusively only dates the same people. Again,
I think because they're incapable of emotionally investing in a
new person and learning about who they are. There's an
ease to kind of fitting in two year old pair
(03:15):
of jeans rather than having to go out and try
on a new pair underpants. Yeah, and I have experienced this.
I had partners in my twenties who we would break
up and then they'd come back and I'd go, I
knew it, I'm so desirable irresistible that finally he's back.
But he was just back because he didn't want to
(03:36):
bother getting to know a new one, and I was easy.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I think there are other Jennifers that Ben could move
on to that he hasn't pollinated. Before, such as Jennifer Aniston.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That would be me. That would be Imagine how excited
I would be if that happened.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
We could gossip Jennie that one. Jennifer love Hewitt is
an option. Yeah, I think she's married, but anyway, and
also my request would be Jennifer Coolidge, Oh, that would
be awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Is she single? I believe she is fabulous?
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Friends, Saturday was into National Women's Day. How did you celebrate, Holleen?
What did you do on this Saturday?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, gosh, I was alone with my children. Brent's been away,
so I did a lot of what I believe statistically
is called women's work. Several loads of washing, cooked at
least three meals, did some shopping, drove a daughter to work,
organized a playdate in inverted commons, which just means trying
(04:35):
to prize young boys off video games. That was it.
That was my day. Yay me celebration, Maya.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
How about you?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
What did you do? I made myself a cake, Okay,
not because I remembered that it was International Women's Day,
just because I felt like a cake and no one
else would make one. But I made it out of
a cake mix, so it wasn't very elevated. Okay, I'm
shamed to say, got my nails done and I had
a nap. So I had a great day.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I forgot that it was Saturday. But on Sunday I
went to hear you speak Maya on a panel which
was lovely.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
It was great. I'm going to tell you all about
it later.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Holly and I went to another panel that my friend
was on at all about women, and I realized that
there's this tendency, I think for women on or around
International Women's Day to spend a decent amount of money
to go and hear other women speak about things they
agree with and applaud, while men.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Just get to sit at home in their pajamas or eat.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Lunch and money.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah, I had a full I had quite a full
Sunday due to International Women's Day commitments, and no one
made me a cake.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Is there any of your cake left?
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Yep?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Okay, great.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I saw some headlines which I really wanted to discuss
with you both. So when the clock ticked over to
March eight, we were all restless.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I know we were.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
We were impatient because we needed to know what Robbie Catter,
the leader of Kata's Australian Party and MP son of
Bobby Catter, had to say about this momentous occasion.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
He delivered he always does.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
In a Facebook post, Katter shared his thoughts on Internet
Women's Day, which he describes as pushing a dangerous agenda
by turning women into victims and demonizing men. He wrote
that the official theme this year was Accelerate Action, and
I'm going to stop him there, because that's not the thing.
It's a long story, but this random organization purchased the
(06:27):
domain name for International Women's Day and puts out their
own theme every year creates what I'm going to call
corporate confusion. We go by the UN Australia theme, which
was actually March Forward.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Anyway, he got the theme wrong, But point.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Is we're much former than accelerate. The kind of similar
yeah like ballpark?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Okay, well, reach for the Stars that's next to go
You go girl.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
According to Katta, he wrote that women are not oppressed.
He said, my success has been built on the quiet,
unwavering strength of the women behind me.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Does that do sound a little bit oppressive? Being behind
and underneath? I'm mister Carter.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
When men talk about the women behind them, My mother
wife and daughters. They're not looking for praise, according to him,
just getting on with the hard work, supporting and pushing boundaries.
The women in my life don't get caught up in
the victimhood off and pushed on this day. They live
their strength every day, quietly and powerfully with that's convenient
for him.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Credit, Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
It's like when your partner says like, oh, I love
how we don't do birthday presents, and it's like, I
actually wanted a birthday. To be clear, I think his
wife and daughters would have liked.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
To I love how we don't get caught up in
the patriarchy and stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
With this house exactly, and they're like, actually, we bitch
about your time. He had a few things to say
about toxic masculinity, and I agree with the sentiment that
women hold value whether they're in the workplace, where they're
at home, and that demonizing all forms of masculinity isn't helpful.
But sir, five minutes ago, you were attempting to amend
(08:05):
Queensland abortion laws, which the Royal Australian and New Zealand
College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists had to come out and
oppose because they said it would cause emotional trauma for
patients and healthcare providers.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So he ordered to bound abortion in Queensland.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
He wanted to make some amendments that the expert said,
what you're going to do is traumatize women who have
babies that are like they're incompatible with life.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
So he just was like, I want to make your
life harder.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
He'd like it on the agenda. He would definitely like
it on the agenda.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
MEA, were you disappointed that Kata didn't just bake you
a cake and give us an encouraging tap on the head.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
No, I think it's always a good day to hear
from men like Bob Katter about what feminism should be. Sorry,
Robbie Catter, Bobby Robbie Robbie is Bob Okay, son of
the big Hat. I assume he also wears a.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Big cat does slightly smaller hat.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And because he has three daughters and a wife, he's
eminently qualified to speak. And I think International Women's Day
is the day that he should speak, because we need
to hear more from men like him who have daughters.
He also so behind them.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You can't see them.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
They hit an He didn't say as well that International
Women's Day started off as a day to really celebrate
the strength of women. That's not what it started off as.
It's a day of protest. So he got that fact
wrong too.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
About things like the gender pay gap.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, Holly, what did you make of our good friend Robbie.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Well, look, he is exhibiting the kind of confidence in
hubris that is not surprising and is apparently statistically typical
of the chaps at the moment, and I, rather than
criticize them for it, I think we should all take
a little dose of this. There was some statistics came
out last week and not that many people reported on
them because they were so expected. But every few years
(09:52):
this big report comes out. It's called the Household Income
and Labor Dynamics in Australia Report Hilda, which is a
very good name, a very good female name, and basically
it reports on the state of men and women in
lots of different areas of equality. And what it said
is that Australian men are not doing any more housework,
domestic chores or caregiving tasks. Actually, although that's changed a
(10:14):
little bit then they were twenty years ago, right, So
that shows a certain amount of stubbornness and commitment on
their part, I think to refusing to move. But what's
particularly charming is that most of them, however, think they're
doing a fair share. So math isn't really my strong suit.
But apparently women do at least twenty percent more household work.
(10:38):
They always have they continue to do so. But fifty
eight percent of men believe they do very much their
fair share, which reminded me of the way that men
behave And this is very stereotypical. Let's say heterosexual men
maybe in a traditional partnership, maybe when they are suddenly
required to do some like say you've got mates coming
(10:58):
round or people coming to stay, and they're like, i'll help,
and then they empty the fish tank.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Perhaps, yes, so I was thinking about these. Sometimes they're
put to work, like I see in my parents' dynamic.
My mum will say we're hosting family Christmas this week,
I need you to do some jobs, and dads like say,
no more, I'm on it. I'm a helpful guy. Whipp
a snipper out. Don't need the whipper snipper. Actually, we
(11:26):
need you to wipe the bench, That is the case.
And look, Luca is in terms of domestic labor. Like,
you know, he is the exception. I accept the stats,
but he does do a lot. But there is something
where men are wired differently when it comes to hosting, right,
Like when people are coming over, I think that I
instinctively know I should vacuum, the house should smell good.
(11:49):
Like there are just kind of a hierarchy of things.
That's when Luca will be like, I think it's time
to wage war on.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
The ants, and it's like no, no, no, or reoil
the deck.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Reoil the deck. Oh the wood is rotting. I don't
give a shit, or like slug bait, I'm going to
clean the dog's water bowl.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
No, they are not top one hundred tasks of what
we need to do right now. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I can't really get on board with this because I
do nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, you're really the exception.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, what do you mean when you say you do nothing?
You mean ever? Or when people are coming round.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
People are coming round? Both you've held, you've held Christmas before?
What do you do you spill something in preparation?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, no, I'll go and buy things. I'll go and
buy vessels to put things in. Like I'll go and
buy bins and Jason will be like, why are you
buying bins? I'm like, because I feel like we need them.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yeah, right, that's your contribution.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, I think men often will. Again we're talking in
such stereotypes, but maybe look at the exterior of the house.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Perhaps they go outside, they wage war with the possums.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah. I just think that there are some people who
are good entertainers, good hostesses I know we're going to
be talking about Megan in a minute, and some who aren't,
some who really think about the moments that their guests
need to experience.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I accept that to a point. But even if you
don't like hosting, there is a certain amount of hosting
that in every life must fall, right, Like, you're not
going to get away with never ever having family members
or people coming round. So I totally agree with you.
Some people love it and it's a way of them
expressing their love, and that's great, But there's also just
a certain amount of grudge hosting that has to oh yeah,
(13:27):
and so when that occurs, who does it? That's kind
of what this is about, right.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
That's another argument that I have with my husband a lot,
because I feel that if they're close enough to come
to your house. You shouldn't really have to do anything.
I have people in and out of my house all
the time, and I'm like, do I need to clean up?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Not really in terms of being the change you need
to see in the world, we should normalize you come
to my house and it looks like it does on
a random Tuesday night. But we can't because we've so
internalized the idea.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Yes and maya your baseline of your house. And maybe
it's because your kids are older and stuff is pretty good,
right my mum growing up two sets of twins in
two and a half years house. You could see the
floor right, really really messy, and people are going to
drop in, and I remember my mum has spoken about
this moment and my mum is difficult to offend. But
(14:19):
I think someone dropped in. You know, people used to
do that, They used to drop in. And this friend
went and whispered to other friends about the state of
the house and how horrified she Oh my god. And
that will always fall on women. That is never like,
can you believe how Tony manages that house well?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Because men aren't judged by.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
No that as a and as there were some great
videos going around over the weekend to mark International Women's Day,
and I just want to play you this clip by
one of my favorite comedians. Her name is Sarah Pasco,
and here's what she said about the gender divide.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Equality is a lie.
Speaker 6 (14:54):
All there is is oh women, go on, have jobs,
go on, have careers if you want one, go on.
Be proud of yourself as long as when you come
home you very quickly do all of the housework like
it's your hobby. And if you're a straight man, now
shout in at in your head being no. Actually, I
put a ladder back in the shed on Saturday. I
(15:16):
cleaned the bath when she was crying on her birthday.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Thank you, thank.
Speaker 6 (15:24):
You, you're one of the good ones. I'm actually not
attacking you. I'm not saying that men don't do anything
you do, but it's just that there is too much
to do and our input isn't parity. And I do
have proof men if they want to, I have so
much spare time about being dads that they can have
secret second families.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Just jump in the car half.
Speaker 6 (15:48):
An hour down the road, another bit of dinner.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Night kids.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
There is no woman who after twenty four hours of
drudgery and then I go to Chelmsford and I scrub
somebody else's kitchen.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
I love that, And I thought that there were that
you referred to, Holly. There was a great line in
it that said, the report also shows men are more
satisfied than women with the division of the unpaid.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
And I'm like, yeah, I bet, I bet they are going.
I think things are actually fine.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I've got an extra six hours a week. In a moment,
has Loved Meghan showed how the royal family made a
big mistake in letting their gold star princess go. Meg
Sussex is celebrating today. Her show with Love Meghan is
in Netflix's top ten worldwide and has officially been greenlit
(16:44):
for a second season, which has already been filmed. So
we don't imagine that was very much of a surprise
to Megs. But anyway, it's good if you like me.
Spent the weekend watching Meg's perfect manicure doing lovely things
to Lettice, You've been thinking a lot about this new
act of Duchess Meghan. She's on the cover of People,
she's on the Drew Barrymore Show, she's out of hiding,
(17:06):
and what's on full display her perfect credentials as a princess.
Now the story goes according to both the royal family
at the time and Harry in his book, which we
won't discuss the title of because we all know that
it's me or what is it Wow that when everything
went down and Harry and Meghan exited the royal family,
what the Sussexes wanted at the time and what they
(17:28):
tried to negotiate to get was a different model of
royal life, right. They wanted one where maybe they could
live overseas, be allowed to make their own money, and
do good for causes that they cared about on their terms.
And those negotiations famously failed. But actually it's exactly what's
ended up happening because Harry and Meghan are living their
royal light life. They live overseas, they make their own money,
(17:52):
and as last year's tours to Nigeria and Columbia showed,
as well as the Invictus Games and their Archroal Foundation projects,
they're doing royal esque charity and ambassadorship roles on their
own terms. But most of all, Meg proves herself, I
think through this show to be the perfect princess Mia.
Do you think that the proper royals are kicking themselves
(18:13):
this week.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, I do in a way, although obviously she I
mean she could have had this show as a royal.
She really could have, because well, everything that people complain
about about the show is what makes a royal woman
good at her job. She looks beautiful, she's very thin,
she's very perfect. She is utterly inoffensive, bordering on bland.
(18:41):
She's very careful to be inclusive, to not do anything controversial.
When she cooks Mexican food, she has a Mexican chef there.
When she cooks Korean food, she has a Korean chef there.
There's nothing sort of to grab hold of, and people
are acting as though that is a flaw, but it's
actually the feature. It's the feature of It was the
(19:05):
feature of Instagram influencers in you know, twenty fifteen or so,
before things became more extreme and they needed to find
more dramatic ways to get attention. And it was the
model for the Tig, which was her lifestyle blog that
she had back then. And it's essentially also what Kate
Middleton does, Like that's what she has to do as
(19:26):
a princess. You have to be ornamental, you have to
be decorative. You have to be kind and supportive and
caring of other people, or at least perform that, and
that's exactly what she's doing.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
She's very good at it, and I agree with everything
you've said, But Kate could never make that show because
if you think about the criticism that's come for Megan
about unrelatability, the money, the time, all that stuff. If
that was a proper Royal, that would also come with
a side of we're paying for those flowers, We're paying
for that house. Obviously, the actual literal logistics of that
(19:59):
are complicated, but that's why royals have to look aspirationally
wealthy and glamorous, but not ostentatiously glamorous, because that is
a bit like, well, you're paying for those jewels, you
know what I mean. So Megan's got the freedom to
be able to show the lifestyle that she obviously really
likes and she obviously really wanted and certainly is on
(20:21):
par with what the Royals are living without that level
of criticism. But I think it's true. I think that
she is very skilled at the kind of royal show
just enough without saying too much, seem relatable, while also
never messy, say a lot of words without any of
them really saying any think that's what royals do. You're
(20:42):
so right, Mia, And it's like, in a way, I
think she would have been great at it in the family.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Yeah, but what undermines that royal performance is her biological
family and she has no control over this. I've done
a lot of soul searching between I think last week
and today. This show isn't for me, and that's totally fine.
But to sit down and create anything is a feat
(21:08):
and it's brave. And I think whenever Thomas Markle rears
his head, I go into a position of just feeling
such empathy for Meghan. And he has come out just
I think in the last day or so and said
that his mother would be turning in her grave at
Meghan's decision to change her name from Markel to Sussex.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Which is bizar thing to say.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
It's a bizarre thing to say given that most women
still upon getting married do change their name.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
He's really grasping, He is really graping to stay in
the conversation.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
And it also made me look at Meghan in a
different way because I went, no, wonder she doesn't want
to be known as Meghan Markle like, I wonder if
there's an element of really wanting to separate herself, not
only from Thomas but from her brother, who every time
she takes a breath, they're asked by the male in
the UK if they'll comment. They both admitted to not
(22:00):
actually watching any of it, but Thomas Markle was like, well,
cooking shows are usually spontaneous and blah and.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Just it's grows how imbittered he is. I also watched
a lot more of it over the weekend, and our
own newsletter about how I was a bit sick over
the weekend and I couldn't really focus on anything, so
I just wanted that sort of background TV that would
wash over me. And it really did the trick. It
was almost quite soothing, and I came away The first
(22:26):
episode I found quite frustrating because I think we were
graining it on a curve that is not the same
as other lifestyle shows or other cooking shows or crafty shows.
I think we brought all the baggage of our opinions
about Megan and the money she was paid and everything
that's happened. But when I just kind of watched more
of it, it made me feel sorry for her in
(22:50):
the sense that she felt very timid, unsure of herself,
really needing validation and praise for everybody. All the people
that were in her house didn't seem to know her
very well or at all. Some of them had never
met her before, and she really needed their approval, and
she really needed them to say things like, you've always
been the hostess with the most and you've always nurtured
(23:10):
with food, and food is really a love language. It
was very saying the quiet part out loud. She was
doing a lot of trying to put forward this other
version of herself, which I understand. Since she became famous
by hooking up with Harry, the media has written her
story for her and her family have and then they
(23:33):
did that Netflix show where they had to be very
negative and angsty about their whole experience, which I understand
to be true from their point of view. But she's
never been able to just be kind of ordinary.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
And there's an irony to and a lot of the
reviews are like Megan, it's desperate for us to like her.
It's like, imagine how traumatizing it would be to be
the most hated woman in the world for the very
worst crime she could maybe be guilty of is not
managing staff well Maybey. Yeah, being someone who some people
(24:07):
don't like, which is a.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Very also to say about a person of color. Yeah,
you know that they're uppity. That's very coded.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
And in the same way.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
I mean, I know a lot of people who have
watched it and they don't warm to Megan, right. They
they don't relate to it to whether it's a sense
of humor or her She doesn't.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Have a sense of humor. And it's all very perfect,
and that isn't how you connect, no matter how many
times she says, Oh, it doesn't have to be perfect,
and I'm just ordinary and has her bare feet. It's
so unrelatable that she's desperately wanting to be liked and
seen for who she is. But there's this massive barrier
because when you take a crew of eighty people to
(24:45):
make a show about how easy it is to make breakfast,
there's massive disconnect.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I don't know about that because I think again, she
is very deliberately made a show that isn't really about her,
you know what I mean. It's supposed to be about
the things so Mike dms and everything and Instagram over
the weekend. We're just full of people sharing themselves, making
things that Megan's making, some of them badly, some of
them well. But people are into it. She's given us
other things to talk about other than just her. But
(25:13):
the other thing is I think, because I agree with
you Mia that while I was watching it, one of
the things I wrote down, especially that first time, is
why does she so desperate for everybody to like her
so much? And as you've just said, Jesse, I think
that definitely everybody hating you for however long would do
that to you. And this bumps into something that was
obviously always a problem with the Royals.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Megan is, and this has been said before, it's non
original thought, a creature of American aspiration.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
She obviously gets an enormous amount of pleasure from the
fact that she now has a lovely life with lovely
stuff in it, and she gets to meet people who
are very high for lutin and interesting, and she gets
just In Trudeau's family to come over for summer and whatever,
and she's hanging out with it like she obviously likes
all that, And in America that is in no way shamed.
(25:58):
Being ambitious and socially ambitious I'm talking about too, is
not shamed in Britain, and particularly if you're royal. You're
born at the top, right, there's nowhere to aspire to,
which is why they're often very busy making their houses
look a bit crumbly, and they don't have all the
flushing toilets and they don't have all that stuff. I
(26:19):
think that's another reason why it was always going to
be hard for her, who's obviously a striver, obviously tries
very hard. Obviously she says it out loud a couple
of times. I love to get a gold star. I
love it when I get approvals and someone tells me
I've done a great job. That is very unroyal. And
so even though it makes her the perfect princess because she's,
(26:39):
you know, performing at this level all the time, that's
not what being a princess is supposed to be. It's
supposed to be effortless.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
And also service to others. I think the thing that
rankles me most is this exhaustion with all these women,
whether it's Nara Smith who makes you know, rice bubbles
from scratch with a grain of rice when her children
want breakfast to Megan they're women who are performing the
(27:07):
act of leisure and domesticity, and yet they're being paid
for it, and there's a whole business behind what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Constraints.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah, the woman who is making her children breakfast does
so with fifty five constraints of the modern world on her.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Such time doesn't want to pop like rice bubbles from scratch,
as well as not being able.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
To fetishizing the stuff that most women have to just
do every day. And yes, it would be lovely to
decant a packet of crackers and put them into a
lovely cellophane thing and make a calligraphy, but most of
us don't have a crew of eighty people and millions
of dollars from Netflix to make that happen. And the
(27:55):
disingenuine usiness from me is twofold.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
First of all, it's.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
The being a duchess and cosplaying royalty, but also trying
to come across as one of the people, and also
cose playing leisure and domesticity when it's hard work and
it takes a lot of money and a lot of time.
And this is something that women are taught to have
our value from our abilities as homemakers. And yet now
(28:21):
we're also expected to go out and work and earn
a living and often support our families.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But some women do love to aspire to that, like
not necessarily doing it all the time. But the three
of us have all obviously given ourselves away when talking
about hosting that it's not our jam literally, But you know,
I know plenty of people who get an enormous amount
of pleasure out of baking a beautiful cake. I don't
think that just because Megan, and she's not the only one.
(28:46):
There's a whole industry of this, of literally lifestyle content.
It's not all about us and making us feel bad,
and lots of women love plugging into it, so what's
wrong with that?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
And on the other hand, I think that seeing through
the Thomas mirkl lens is that this is a woman
who is estranged from her father and her brother, who
is raising children with a man who lost his mother
very very young. And I just think that there's something
in trying to create a childhood that was either different
from your own or can be. You know, people who
who have a strange family members raising little children can
(29:19):
be really confronting because bring back a lot of memories.
And Harry grew up in a circus like I can
understand trying to make that a little bit more perfect.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
And for her too, because she talks about growing up
as a latchkey kid. She had a single mum and.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Which Thomas Michael completely denies.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, but her parents were divorced and she lived either
with her dad or her mum. But she had a
single mum or a single dad, and her parents worked.
And so it's not the aspiration of it's not nice
to make a cake or make people feel welcome, or
do it little, you know, arrange some flowers.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
It's not that.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It's the making it seem really easy and effortless and
hiding all the work and the effort and the money
and the time that it takes, as if anyone can
do it. We know that's not true.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
We'd have some feedback for the Constitution. If you thought
we were having a federal election any minute now, You're
not alone. But ex cyclone Alfred paid to that this weekend,
as it should, and instead we're back in election limbo
and Instagram reel by Charlotte Mortlock, friend of the pod
and who's worked in politics for years, articulated why this
is a problem and what should happen to solve it,
(30:28):
and it's an opinion it has to be said that
shared by the Prime Minister sometimes Peter Dutton and plenty
of people in politics. They haven't made a reel about
it yet and they should because here's what Charlotte said.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
The Prime Minister was set to call the election tomorrow
and that would mean an April twelve election that is
no longer happening and I have no critique of that.
The government needs to be focused on the emergency efforts
and the recovery efforts. However, it does mean that Australia
is going to be in this quasi campaign limbo for
yet another month because we have Easter Anzac Day, so
(31:01):
now we're not having the election tool may That means
we've been in kind of this campaign mode for around
six to eight months and very little effective democracy has
done in that time because everyone is hyper, you know,
part of the hyper focused on political point scoring.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
That is just the reality.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
We need to change to a four year term and
it needs to be a fixed term because you're also
trying to always gain the system, hold the election on
a date that suits you when you've got momentum for
your party, again, no critique.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
That is a reality, but that's not always.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
In the country's interests. And so I do think that
we really need to have a really good look at
our democracy and why we can't change that and why
it's taken us so long to get to that point.
And I don't think it was being controversial. I think
we make our politicians look a lot longer into the future,
or at least a little, which is only a good thing.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So for a bit of context for us to change,
Australia to change to a four year fixed term, which
is what America has, It's what Britain has, it's what
lots of places happen.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Does a fixed term mean they don't get to decide?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, so fixed term. What they're talking about there is
that you go right, so the election is always on
November get whatever, or it always has to be before
this date, and that instead of three year terms, which
is what Australia has, you have four year terms. Now
the US do that, the UK do that. Actually, our
states and territories also do it. Our state and territory
elections I've never noticed, to be honest, always fall at
(32:29):
the same time and a fixed term. But for this
to happen at a federal level, that has to be
a referendum because it would be changing the constitution. So
when I was saying before that the Prime Minister's voice
support and both sides of politics have voiced support for this.
Over time, there is not very much appetite for a
referendum because we know how they go.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
After the break snaff and why it's all over your phone.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Wan unlimited out loud access.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes
to get us in your ears five days a week,
and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
If you're wondering why being online seems so relentlessly exhausting
lately and why you're so often left with an anxiety, hangover,
or just a feeling of yuckiness as you scroll, it
could be because of snaff. The founder of BuzzFeed, Jonah
pretty recently wrote a think piece that explained the concept
(33:39):
of snaff and how it has come to dominate social media.
He says that social media has become overrun with snaff,
and snaff stands for s is for stakes, exaggerating the
stakes to make the content urgent and existential. N is
for novelty, manufacturing novelty, and spinning content as being this
(33:59):
has never happened before. A is for anger, manipulating people's
anger to drive engagement via outrage. R is for retention.
Retention hacks include like withholding info like wait till the end,
watch till the end, or clickbaiting. And F is for fear,
so really taking advantage of fear to make people focus
with urgency on the content. So he argues that the
(34:22):
social media overlords at Meta and TikTok don't care about
actual content. They care about keeping people addicted to scrolling
so that they can monetize our eyeballs for longer. I
think we all by this stage know that to be true.
And the result of that is this proliferation of a
particular type of content that the algorithm rewards aka snaff.
(34:44):
So it means that the type of content that gets
created and recommended isn't the best content, but the content
that elicits the most compulsive and predictable response from the
human brain. Is this ringing a little bit true for you, Jesson?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
My goodness, it explains literally everything from publishers to politicians,
to individual commentators.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Influencers TV shows.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Yeah, yeah, I think I saw it over the weekend.
Sometimes there are attempts at snaff. There's a story that
people are like, this is rich with potential snaff. Let's
try and find it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
What's the snaff angle?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Where's the snaff in this?
Speaker 4 (35:18):
And I was watching it unfold over the weekend with
the another Simple Favor premiere because it's Blake Lively, right,
and the Blake Lively She's got it.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
It's a second movie sequel.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
It's a sequel with the it was the Anna Kendrick
movie and Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni was sort of
the ultimate snaff story. There was enormous novelty. The stakes
were so high. Either a woman was sexually assaulted or
she lied about it, which you know was anger fear,
and the retention was the receipts. It was like it
(35:49):
was perfect because you could do a fifteen minute TikTok
video on it with all the information and people were
just stuck to it. And so I saw attempts to
kind of find the snaff in this story over the weekend,
and there was a headline that I read this morning.
That was like Anna Kendrick's three word reply to a
quest about working with Blake Lively. And here's what she
(36:12):
actually said, What.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Does it mean to be working with Blake again? Does
that it? To be clear? All she said was oh,
you know, and then it feels like she got interrupted. Yeah,
like that was the entire story.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
So if you feel as though you go onto the
internet and everything feels existential, everything feels like life or death,
that the biggest commentators in Australia right now look as though,
I'm going to be completely honest about how I feel
about it. Look as though they are unwell because they
are stuck in this cycle.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Of everything's in emergency and.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Almost like mania of just you see them get on,
they're breathless. I don't actually think that's put on. I
think that you become so invested in the algorithm and
the reward. We're like mice with little every time we
press a button, we get a reward, and we're addicted
to this drug. And you see people radical themselves in
their ideas because they get like almost taken away by
(37:13):
the scale of the thing they're talking about.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Also, this is because all content is so examined now,
So to pull the curtain back a little bit, like
ever since I've worked at digital media, we know everything
about why people click on things, right, We've known that
for a very long time, and so in the old
days we used to call it clickbait, very similar to
snaff really like, make it seem really dramatic, hold back
something of novelty, make sure there's a reason to retain
(37:37):
them by clicking. You know all of those things, right,
And so we are all hyper data driven, and the
people who are constantly snaffing, I'm just trying to find
different ways to use the word because I love it
so much. Constantly snaffing on the Internet, obviously are doing
it for monetary reasons, engagement reasons, validation reasons.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Attention reasons.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Literally there's a job, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Because they know it works. So you'll notice that with
any of the socials you follow, including ours, there'll be
a while where the headlines look like this, and then
they'll change and now they'll look like that, and then
there'll be a time when the pictures look like this,
and then they look like that. Isn't this just playing
people where they are? You know what I mean? Like
if it didn't work, we wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Do it well in a way, yes, because in order
to stay relevant and get views so that they can
make money, creators a force to make snaff content or
at least market the content that they make from a
snaff point of view. And what Jonah Pardi argues in
this piece is that snaff content is reshaping politics and
culture and society, and it's often producing hateful and misleading
(38:43):
or really destructive content. Because the one word that isn't
in there that I think ends should be more more
than for novelty. It should be for negativity because feel good,
positive content does not elicit that fight or flight or
fury response in you.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Right, I've had to I think we've probably all had
this as an editor. You have people come in or
even brands and they say, why don't we do some
good news And I've had to say, no, one gives
a shit about good news.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
And so it doesn't feel like an emergency exactly right.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
It doesn't kind of inspire any feeling in you. And
we've all played this game. I've had to play this
game and have felt myself do it online. There was
a great quote in this article about how the internet
used to serve beer and wine at a communal dinner party,
and now there's fentanyl and crack, and to try and
make people pay for wine when they can get crack
(39:36):
for free is very difficult.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
The whole Internet is running on crack and fentanyl.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yes, But I did think, as I agorithm as I
was reading this, I'm someone who probably turns towards criticism
of institutions, that monopoly that the tech industries have over
algorithms and all of that. I agree that this is
an algorithmic issue. I do think that individuals and publishers
(40:01):
need to take some responsibility, which is what BuzzFeed is doing.
But I think it's a cop out to go, well,
I'm just playing the algorithm. As someone who exists as
a person on the Internet and as a person in
the media, I have felt myself get sucked into the
vortex of snuff and I have felt myself have to
(40:21):
literally sit down and go what are your values?
Speaker 3 (40:24):
What are your boundaries?
Speaker 4 (40:25):
On the internet? What do you want to do? If
you are chasing an algorithm, you're going to end up
as a person you don't like. Because often you'll see
a piece of content and it might be funny, and
it's got novelty, and it's gone absolutely viral, and you go,
that is ultimately hateful. You've just spurted hate into the world.
You've not made the world better or anyone's day better.
(40:48):
And to resist that as someone who creates content is
really hard.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I think that's why a lot of us are looking.
A lot of content creators are looking to have a
smaller audience because the way to ride the algorithm is
with snuff. And in terms of it changing culture, you
can see it in so many ways. So in politics,
the obvious example is Trump. Trump is the ultimate snaff
political candidate versus someone like Joe Biden had his own issues.
(41:18):
But Kamala Harris is just like was fairly neutral. She
wasn't going to get the same amount of attention. Look
at in TV shows The Bachelor, there was not that
high stakes drama and it faded away only to re
replaced by maths, which is constant snaff, constant drama, outrage, scandal,
high stakes. So that's how you can see that it's
(41:40):
shaping the culture.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I think people are wise to snaff and have been
for a while, even if they didn't know what it
was called. Because if you look at news refusal. We've
talked about that a lot, people turning away from news.
I promise that it's only like two more days. I'm
allowed to resference Megan and everything. If a TV show
is a legitimate hit, it is for this reason in
lots of ways, well in two different ways. Partly it's
(42:02):
snaff bait because the people who hater will watch it
and go back. But the actual show itself, as you've
already said today, Maya is so inoffensive and pleasant. And
I know that I'm often looking for, particularly in audio,
like books or podcasts or things when I've been swimming
in the news cycle for days that do the opposite
(42:23):
and that will suit me enhich me, make me think
about things in a different way, but also just soothe
me and not freak me out. And I think that
we definitely have gotten wise to it.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
I think it's taken over news. There was a great
example in that story about the LA fires. How you
can get a week into a news event, no none
of the facts, but know the debates about DEI you've
seen fake images you to.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Be mad about today yelling it out us.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
We even said it last week with cyclone Alfred when
we were talking about that, it was a bizarre moment
because there was nobody to be angry at. Like the
news cycle relies on going, who can we yell at?
Because that's a story that.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The beginning of COVID was like that. Remember when no
one had an one to be angry at and it
was just felt strange and people were singing opera on
their balconies and sharing Kumbaya memes and then we're snaffed.
Then it got snaffed.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
We devolved into snuff. Our hands got sticky.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
With the snuff.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
That's all we've got time for today. Friends, A massive
thank you to all of you out louders for listening
to today's show and to our fabulous team for putting
it together. As always, we're going to be back in
your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Goodbye bye.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening. If you
love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Maya is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode
description
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and warders
that this podcast is recorded on I promise that it's
only like two more days. I'm allowed to reference Meghan
and everything if her TV show is a legitimate hit.
Partly it's snaff bit because the people who hater will
watch it and go back, But the actual show itself
(00:35):
is so inoffensive and pleasant. Hello and welcome to MoMA
Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking about
on Monday, the tenth of March. I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
And on the show today we all got exactly what
we wanted for International Women's Day, Validation that yes, we
do do absolutely everything, and some helpful feedback from Rob Catter. Also,
why after a weekend of digesting with love Meghan and
some wickles sprinkled with flowers, It's clear that the royal
family made a big mistake and what is snuff? We
(01:17):
hate to break it to you, but it's all over
your phone. But first, I still love you, and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
This is exhausting, you know, like we're never getting that
together like ever No.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It hps, you missed it.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Ben Afleck continues to be a lazy boy by dipping
back into his bag of ex wives called Jennifer. The
gossip over the weekend was that now his Jennifer Lopez
divorce has been finalized, he is sniffing around the original
Jennifer ex wife, Ghana. Page six published photos of Affleck
and Jennifer Ghana sharing a laugh at their son's paintball party,
(01:56):
and the next day a source told the outlet that
Affleck would love another chance. The insider added that the
actor would definitely be open to giving things another shot
with Jen if the timing is ever right, but that
he knows it's just not realistic time in their lives,
which is a bit of a weird thing to say,
because Jennifer Ghana has been dating a businessman called John Miller.
(02:17):
He's like the heir to a big Hamburger franchise. She's
been dating him since twenty eighteen, a little bit on
and off, but they're currently on. My question is.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Why you missed the part about the body language expert
who had some things to say about how when men
and women hetero men and women usually hug They keep
their pelviss apart to indicate space and not a romantic investment.
But their pelvis is rubbed, which is.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
But that's because they have rubbed before exactly, and so
they have muscle memory of rubbing.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Well.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I think that Jennifer Ghana is way too smart to
go anywhere in that.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Ever, Again, I agree with you one hundred percent, but
it reminded me of a certain type of man and
perhaps woman who exclusively only dates the same people. Again,
I think because they're incapable of emotionally investing in a
new person and learning about who they are. There's an
ease to kind of fitting in two year old pair
(03:15):
of jeans rather than having to go out and try
on a new pair underpants. Yeah, and I have experienced this.
I had partners in my twenties who we would break
up and then they'd come back and I'd go, I
knew it, I'm so desirable irresistible that finally he's back.
But he was just back because he didn't want to
(03:36):
bother getting to know a new one, and I was easy.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I think there are other Jennifers that Ben could move
on to that he hasn't pollinated. Before, such as Jennifer Aniston.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That would be me. That would be Imagine how excited
I would be if that happened.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
We could gossip Jennie that one. Jennifer love Hewitt is
an option. Yeah, I think she's married, but anyway, and
also my request would be Jennifer Coolidge, Oh, that would
be awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Is she single? I believe she is fabulous?
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Friends, Saturday was into National Women's Day. How did you celebrate, Holleen?
What did you do on this Saturday?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, gosh, I was alone with my children. Brent's been away,
so I did a lot of what I believe statistically
is called women's work. Several loads of washing, cooked at
least three meals, did some shopping, drove a daughter to work,
organized a playdate in inverted commons, which just means trying
(04:35):
to prize young boys off video games. That was it.
That was my day. Yay me celebration, Maya.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
How about you?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
What did you do? I made myself a cake, Okay,
not because I remembered that it was International Women's Day,
just because I felt like a cake and no one
else would make one. But I made it out of
a cake mix, so it wasn't very elevated. Okay, I'm
shamed to say, got my nails done and I had
a nap. So I had a great day.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I forgot that it was Saturday. But on Sunday I
went to hear you speak Maya on a panel which
was lovely.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
It was great. I'm going to tell you all about
it later.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Holly and I went to another panel that my friend
was on at all about women, and I realized that
there's this tendency, I think for women on or around
International Women's Day to spend a decent amount of money
to go and hear other women speak about things they
agree with and applaud, while men.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Just get to sit at home in their pajamas or eat.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Lunch and money.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah, I had a full I had quite a full
Sunday due to International Women's Day commitments, and no one
made me a cake.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Is there any of your cake left?
Speaker 5 (05:42):
Yep?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Okay, great.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I saw some headlines which I really wanted to discuss
with you both. So when the clock ticked over to
March eight, we were all restless.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I know we were.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
We were impatient because we needed to know what Robbie Catter,
the leader of Kata's Australian Party and MP son of
Bobby Catter, had to say about this momentous occasion.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
He delivered he always does.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
In a Facebook post, Katter shared his thoughts on Internet
Women's Day, which he describes as pushing a dangerous agenda
by turning women into victims and demonizing men. He wrote
that the official theme this year was Accelerate Action, and
I'm going to stop him there, because that's not the thing.
It's a long story, but this random organization purchased the
(06:27):
domain name for International Women's Day and puts out their
own theme every year creates what I'm going to call
corporate confusion. We go by the UN Australia theme, which
was actually March Forward.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Anyway, he got the theme wrong, But point.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Is we're much former than accelerate. The kind of similar
yeah like ballpark?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Okay, well, reach for the Stars that's next to go
You go girl.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
According to Katta, he wrote that women are not oppressed.
He said, my success has been built on the quiet,
unwavering strength of the women behind me.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Does that do sound a little bit oppressive? Being behind
and underneath? I'm mister Carter.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
When men talk about the women behind them, My mother
wife and daughters. They're not looking for praise, according to him,
just getting on with the hard work, supporting and pushing boundaries.
The women in my life don't get caught up in
the victimhood off and pushed on this day. They live
their strength every day, quietly and powerfully with that's convenient
for him.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Credit, Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
It's like when your partner says like, oh, I love
how we don't do birthday presents, and it's like, I
actually wanted a birthday. To be clear, I think his
wife and daughters would have liked.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
To I love how we don't get caught up in
the patriarchy and stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
With this house exactly, and they're like, actually, we bitch
about your time. He had a few things to say
about toxic masculinity, and I agree with the sentiment that
women hold value whether they're in the workplace, where they're
at home, and that demonizing all forms of masculinity isn't helpful.
But sir, five minutes ago, you were attempting to amend
(08:05):
Queensland abortion laws, which the Royal Australian and New Zealand
College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists had to come out and
oppose because they said it would cause emotional trauma for
patients and healthcare providers.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So he ordered to bound abortion in Queensland.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
He wanted to make some amendments that the expert said,
what you're going to do is traumatize women who have
babies that are like they're incompatible with life.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
So he just was like, I want to make your
life harder.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
He'd like it on the agenda. He would definitely like
it on the agenda.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
MEA, were you disappointed that Kata didn't just bake you
a cake and give us an encouraging tap on the head.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
No, I think it's always a good day to hear
from men like Bob Katter about what feminism should be. Sorry,
Robbie Catter, Bobby Robbie Robbie is Bob Okay, son of
the big Hat. I assume he also wears a.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Big cat does slightly smaller hat.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
And because he has three daughters and a wife, he's
eminently qualified to speak. And I think International Women's Day
is the day that he should speak, because we need
to hear more from men like him who have daughters.
He also so behind them.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You can't see them.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
They hit an He didn't say as well that International
Women's Day started off as a day to really celebrate
the strength of women. That's not what it started off as.
It's a day of protest. So he got that fact
wrong too.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
About things like the gender pay gap.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Yeah, Holly, what did you make of our good friend Robbie.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Well, look, he is exhibiting the kind of confidence in
hubris that is not surprising and is apparently statistically typical
of the chaps at the moment, and I, rather than
criticize them for it, I think we should all take
a little dose of this. There was some statistics came
out last week and not that many people reported on
them because they were so expected. But every few years
(09:52):
this big report comes out. It's called the Household Income
and Labor Dynamics in Australia Report Hilda, which is a
very good name, a very good female name, and basically
it reports on the state of men and women in
lots of different areas of equality. And what it said
is that Australian men are not doing any more housework,
domestic chores or caregiving tasks. Actually, although that's changed a
(10:14):
little bit then they were twenty years ago, right, So
that shows a certain amount of stubbornness and commitment on
their part, I think to refusing to move. But what's
particularly charming is that most of them, however, think they're
doing a fair share. So math isn't really my strong suit.
But apparently women do at least twenty percent more household work.
(10:38):
They always have they continue to do so. But fifty
eight percent of men believe they do very much their
fair share, which reminded me of the way that men
behave And this is very stereotypical. Let's say heterosexual men
maybe in a traditional partnership, maybe when they are suddenly
required to do some like say you've got mates coming
(10:58):
round or people coming to stay, and they're like, i'll help,
and then they empty the fish tank.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Perhaps, yes, so I was thinking about these. Sometimes they're
put to work, like I see in my parents' dynamic.
My mum will say we're hosting family Christmas this week,
I need you to do some jobs, and dads like say,
no more, I'm on it. I'm a helpful guy. Whipp
a snipper out. Don't need the whipper snipper. Actually, we
(11:26):
need you to wipe the bench, That is the case.
And look, Luca is in terms of domestic labor. Like,
you know, he is the exception. I accept the stats,
but he does do a lot. But there is something
where men are wired differently when it comes to hosting, right,
Like when people are coming over, I think that I
instinctively know I should vacuum, the house should smell good.
(11:49):
Like there are just kind of a hierarchy of things.
That's when Luca will be like, I think it's time
to wage war on.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
The ants, and it's like no, no, no, or reoil
the deck.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Reoil the deck. Oh the wood is rotting. I don't
give a shit, or like slug bait, I'm going to
clean the dog's water bowl.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
No, they are not top one hundred tasks of what
we need to do right now. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I can't really get on board with this because I
do nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Yeah, you're really the exception.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, what do you mean when you say you do nothing?
You mean ever? Or when people are coming round.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
People are coming round? Both you've held, you've held Christmas before?
What do you do you spill something in preparation?
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, no, I'll go and buy things. I'll go and
buy vessels to put things in. Like I'll go and
buy bins and Jason will be like, why are you
buying bins? I'm like, because I feel like we need them.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yeah, right, that's your contribution.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, I think men often will. Again we're talking in
such stereotypes, but maybe look at the exterior of the house.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Perhaps they go outside, they wage war with the possums.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah. I just think that there are some people who
are good entertainers, good hostesses I know we're going to
be talking about Megan in a minute, and some who aren't,
some who really think about the moments that their guests
need to experience.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I accept that to a point. But even if you
don't like hosting, there is a certain amount of hosting
that in every life must fall, right, Like, you're not
going to get away with never ever having family members
or people coming round. So I totally agree with you.
Some people love it and it's a way of them
expressing their love, and that's great, But there's also just
a certain amount of grudge hosting that has to oh yeah,
(13:27):
and so when that occurs, who does it? That's kind
of what this is about, right.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
That's another argument that I have with my husband a lot,
because I feel that if they're close enough to come
to your house. You shouldn't really have to do anything.
I have people in and out of my house all
the time, and I'm like, do I need to clean up?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Not really in terms of being the change you need
to see in the world, we should normalize you come
to my house and it looks like it does on
a random Tuesday night. But we can't because we've so
internalized the idea.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Yes and maya your baseline of your house. And maybe
it's because your kids are older and stuff is pretty good,
right my mum growing up two sets of twins in
two and a half years house. You could see the
floor right, really really messy, and people are going to
drop in, and I remember my mum has spoken about
this moment and my mum is difficult to offend. But
(14:19):
I think someone dropped in. You know, people used to
do that, They used to drop in. And this friend
went and whispered to other friends about the state of
the house and how horrified she Oh my god. And
that will always fall on women. That is never like,
can you believe how Tony manages that house well?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Because men aren't judged by.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
No that as a and as there were some great
videos going around over the weekend to mark International Women's Day,
and I just want to play you this clip by
one of my favorite comedians. Her name is Sarah Pasco,
and here's what she said about the gender divide.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Equality is a lie.
Speaker 6 (14:54):
All there is is oh women, go on, have jobs,
go on, have careers if you want one, go on.
Be proud of yourself as long as when you come
home you very quickly do all of the housework like
it's your hobby. And if you're a straight man, now
shout in at in your head being no. Actually, I
put a ladder back in the shed on Saturday. I
(15:16):
cleaned the bath when she was crying on her birthday.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Thank you, thank.
Speaker 6 (15:24):
You, you're one of the good ones. I'm actually not
attacking you. I'm not saying that men don't do anything
you do, but it's just that there is too much
to do and our input isn't parity. And I do
have proof men if they want to, I have so
much spare time about being dads that they can have
secret second families.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Just jump in the car half.
Speaker 6 (15:48):
An hour down the road, another bit of dinner.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Night kids.
Speaker 6 (15:54):
There is no woman who after twenty four hours of
drudgery and then I go to Chelmsford and I scrub
somebody else's kitchen.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
I love that, And I thought that there were that
you referred to, Holly. There was a great line in
it that said, the report also shows men are more
satisfied than women with the division of the unpaid.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
And I'm like, yeah, I bet, I bet they are going.
I think things are actually fine.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I've got an extra six hours a week. In a moment,
has Loved Meghan showed how the royal family made a
big mistake in letting their gold star princess go. Meg
Sussex is celebrating today. Her show with Love Meghan is
in Netflix's top ten worldwide and has officially been greenlit
(16:44):
for a second season, which has already been filmed. So
we don't imagine that was very much of a surprise
to Megs. But anyway, it's good if you like me.
Spent the weekend watching Meg's perfect manicure doing lovely things
to Lettice, You've been thinking a lot about this new
act of Duchess Meghan. She's on the cover of People,
she's on the Drew Barrymore Show, she's out of hiding,
(17:06):
and what's on full display her perfect credentials as a princess.
Now the story goes according to both the royal family
at the time and Harry in his book, which we
won't discuss the title of because we all know that
it's me or what is it Wow that when everything
went down and Harry and Meghan exited the royal family,
what the Sussexes wanted at the time and what they
(17:28):
tried to negotiate to get was a different model of
royal life, right. They wanted one where maybe they could
live overseas, be allowed to make their own money, and
do good for causes that they cared about on their terms.
And those negotiations famously failed. But actually it's exactly what's
ended up happening because Harry and Meghan are living their
royal light life. They live overseas, they make their own money,
(17:52):
and as last year's tours to Nigeria and Columbia showed,
as well as the Invictus Games and their Archroal Foundation projects,
they're doing royal esque charity and ambassadorship roles on their
own terms. But most of all, Meg proves herself, I
think through this show to be the perfect princess Mia.
Do you think that the proper royals are kicking themselves
(18:13):
this week.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, I do in a way, although obviously she I
mean she could have had this show as a royal.
She really could have, because well, everything that people complain
about about the show is what makes a royal woman
good at her job. She looks beautiful, she's very thin,
she's very perfect. She is utterly inoffensive, bordering on bland.
(18:41):
She's very careful to be inclusive, to not do anything controversial.
When she cooks Mexican food, she has a Mexican chef there.
When she cooks Korean food, she has a Korean chef there.
There's nothing sort of to grab hold of, and people
are acting as though that is a flaw, but it's
actually the feature. It's the feature of It was the
(19:05):
feature of Instagram influencers in you know, twenty fifteen or so,
before things became more extreme and they needed to find
more dramatic ways to get attention. And it was the
model for the Tig, which was her lifestyle blog that
she had back then. And it's essentially also what Kate
Middleton does, Like that's what she has to do as
(19:26):
a princess. You have to be ornamental, you have to
be decorative. You have to be kind and supportive and
caring of other people, or at least perform that, and
that's exactly what she's doing.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
She's very good at it, and I agree with everything
you've said, But Kate could never make that show because
if you think about the criticism that's come for Megan
about unrelatability, the money, the time, all that stuff. If
that was a proper Royal, that would also come with
a side of we're paying for those flowers, We're paying
for that house. Obviously, the actual literal logistics of that
(19:59):
are complicated, but that's why royals have to look aspirationally
wealthy and glamorous, but not ostentatiously glamorous, because that is
a bit like, well, you're paying for those jewels, you
know what I mean. So Megan's got the freedom to
be able to show the lifestyle that she obviously really
likes and she obviously really wanted and certainly is on
(20:21):
par with what the Royals are living without that level
of criticism. But I think it's true. I think that
she is very skilled at the kind of royal show
just enough without saying too much, seem relatable, while also
never messy, say a lot of words without any of
them really saying any think that's what royals do. You're
(20:42):
so right, Mia, And it's like, in a way, I
think she would have been great at it in the family.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Yeah, but what undermines that royal performance is her biological
family and she has no control over this. I've done
a lot of soul searching between I think last week
and today. This show isn't for me, and that's totally fine.
But to sit down and create anything is a feat
(21:08):
and it's brave. And I think whenever Thomas Markle rears
his head, I go into a position of just feeling
such empathy for Meghan. And he has come out just
I think in the last day or so and said
that his mother would be turning in her grave at
Meghan's decision to change her name from Markel to Sussex.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Which is bizar thing to say.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
It's a bizarre thing to say given that most women
still upon getting married do change their name.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
He's really grasping, He is really graping to stay in
the conversation.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
And it also made me look at Meghan in a
different way because I went, no, wonder she doesn't want
to be known as Meghan Markle like, I wonder if
there's an element of really wanting to separate herself, not
only from Thomas but from her brother, who every time
she takes a breath, they're asked by the male in
the UK if they'll comment. They both admitted to not
(22:00):
actually watching any of it, but Thomas Markle was like, well,
cooking shows are usually spontaneous and blah and.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Just it's grows how imbittered he is. I also watched
a lot more of it over the weekend, and our
own newsletter about how I was a bit sick over
the weekend and I couldn't really focus on anything, so
I just wanted that sort of background TV that would
wash over me. And it really did the trick. It
was almost quite soothing, and I came away The first
(22:26):
episode I found quite frustrating because I think we were
graining it on a curve that is not the same
as other lifestyle shows or other cooking shows or crafty shows.
I think we brought all the baggage of our opinions
about Megan and the money she was paid and everything
that's happened. But when I just kind of watched more
of it, it made me feel sorry for her in
(22:50):
the sense that she felt very timid, unsure of herself,
really needing validation and praise for everybody. All the people
that were in her house didn't seem to know her
very well or at all. Some of them had never
met her before, and she really needed their approval, and
she really needed them to say things like, you've always
been the hostess with the most and you've always nurtured
(23:10):
with food, and food is really a love language. It
was very saying the quiet part out loud. She was
doing a lot of trying to put forward this other
version of herself, which I understand. Since she became famous
by hooking up with Harry, the media has written her
story for her and her family have and then they
(23:33):
did that Netflix show where they had to be very
negative and angsty about their whole experience, which I understand
to be true from their point of view. But she's
never been able to just be kind of ordinary.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
And there's an irony to and a lot of the
reviews are like Megan, it's desperate for us to like her.
It's like, imagine how traumatizing it would be to be
the most hated woman in the world for the very
worst crime she could maybe be guilty of is not
managing staff well Maybey. Yeah, being someone who some people
(24:07):
don't like, which is a.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Very also to say about a person of color. Yeah,
you know that they're uppity. That's very coded.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
And in the same way.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
I mean, I know a lot of people who have
watched it and they don't warm to Megan, right. They
they don't relate to it to whether it's a sense
of humor or her She doesn't.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Have a sense of humor. And it's all very perfect,
and that isn't how you connect, no matter how many
times she says, Oh, it doesn't have to be perfect,
and I'm just ordinary and has her bare feet. It's
so unrelatable that she's desperately wanting to be liked and
seen for who she is. But there's this massive barrier
because when you take a crew of eighty people to
(24:45):
make a show about how easy it is to make breakfast,
there's massive disconnect.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I don't know about that because I think again, she
is very deliberately made a show that isn't really about her,
you know what I mean. It's supposed to be about
the things so Mike dms and everything and Instagram over
the weekend. We're just full of people sharing themselves, making
things that Megan's making, some of them badly, some of
them well. But people are into it. She's given us
other things to talk about other than just her. But
(25:13):
the other thing is I think, because I agree with
you Mia that while I was watching it, one of
the things I wrote down, especially that first time, is
why does she so desperate for everybody to like her
so much? And as you've just said, Jesse, I think
that definitely everybody hating you for however long would do
that to you. And this bumps into something that was
obviously always a problem with the Royals.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Megan is, and this has been said before, it's non
original thought, a creature of American aspiration.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
She obviously gets an enormous amount of pleasure from the
fact that she now has a lovely life with lovely
stuff in it, and she gets to meet people who
are very high for lutin and interesting, and she gets
just In Trudeau's family to come over for summer and whatever,
and she's hanging out with it like she obviously likes
all that, And in America that is in no way shamed.
(25:58):
Being ambitious and socially ambitious I'm talking about too, is
not shamed in Britain, and particularly if you're royal. You're
born at the top, right, there's nowhere to aspire to,
which is why they're often very busy making their houses
look a bit crumbly, and they don't have all the
flushing toilets and they don't have all that stuff. I
(26:19):
think that's another reason why it was always going to
be hard for her, who's obviously a striver, obviously tries
very hard. Obviously she says it out loud a couple
of times. I love to get a gold star. I
love it when I get approvals and someone tells me
I've done a great job. That is very unroyal. And
so even though it makes her the perfect princess because she's,
(26:39):
you know, performing at this level all the time, that's
not what being a princess is supposed to be. It's
supposed to be effortless.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
And also service to others. I think the thing that
rankles me most is this exhaustion with all these women,
whether it's Nara Smith who makes you know, rice bubbles
from scratch with a grain of rice when her children
want breakfast to Megan they're women who are performing the
(27:07):
act of leisure and domesticity, and yet they're being paid
for it, and there's a whole business behind what they're doing.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Constraints.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah, the woman who is making her children breakfast does
so with fifty five constraints of the modern world on her.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Such time doesn't want to pop like rice bubbles from scratch,
as well as not being able.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
To fetishizing the stuff that most women have to just
do every day. And yes, it would be lovely to
decant a packet of crackers and put them into a
lovely cellophane thing and make a calligraphy, but most of
us don't have a crew of eighty people and millions
of dollars from Netflix to make that happen. And the
(27:55):
disingenuine usiness from me is twofold.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
First of all, it's.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
The being a duchess and cosplaying royalty, but also trying
to come across as one of the people, and also
cose playing leisure and domesticity when it's hard work and
it takes a lot of money and a lot of time.
And this is something that women are taught to have
our value from our abilities as homemakers. And yet now
(28:21):
we're also expected to go out and work and earn
a living and often support our families.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
But some women do love to aspire to that, like
not necessarily doing it all the time. But the three
of us have all obviously given ourselves away when talking
about hosting that it's not our jam literally, But you know,
I know plenty of people who get an enormous amount
of pleasure out of baking a beautiful cake. I don't
think that just because Megan, and she's not the only one.
(28:46):
There's a whole industry of this, of literally lifestyle content.
It's not all about us and making us feel bad,
and lots of women love plugging into it, so what's
wrong with that?
Speaker 4 (28:56):
And on the other hand, I think that seeing through
the Thomas mirkl lens is that this is a woman
who is estranged from her father and her brother, who
is raising children with a man who lost his mother
very very young. And I just think that there's something
in trying to create a childhood that was either different
from your own or can be. You know, people who
who have a strange family members raising little children can
(29:19):
be really confronting because bring back a lot of memories.
And Harry grew up in a circus like I can
understand trying to make that a little bit more perfect.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
And for her too, because she talks about growing up
as a latchkey kid. She had a single mum and.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Which Thomas Michael completely denies.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, but her parents were divorced and she lived either
with her dad or her mum. But she had a
single mum or a single dad, and her parents worked.
And so it's not the aspiration of it's not nice
to make a cake or make people feel welcome, or
do it little, you know, arrange some flowers.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
It's not that.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It's the making it seem really easy and effortless and
hiding all the work and the effort and the money
and the time that it takes, as if anyone can
do it. We know that's not true.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
We'd have some feedback for the Constitution. If you thought
we were having a federal election any minute now, You're
not alone. But ex cyclone Alfred paid to that this weekend,
as it should, and instead we're back in election limbo
and Instagram reel by Charlotte Mortlock, friend of the pod
and who's worked in politics for years, articulated why this
is a problem and what should happen to solve it,
(30:28):
and it's an opinion it has to be said that
shared by the Prime Minister sometimes Peter Dutton and plenty
of people in politics. They haven't made a reel about
it yet and they should because here's what Charlotte said.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
The Prime Minister was set to call the election tomorrow
and that would mean an April twelve election that is
no longer happening and I have no critique of that.
The government needs to be focused on the emergency efforts
and the recovery efforts. However, it does mean that Australia
is going to be in this quasi campaign limbo for
yet another month because we have Easter Anzac Day, so
(31:01):
now we're not having the election tool may That means
we've been in kind of this campaign mode for around
six to eight months and very little effective democracy has
done in that time because everyone is hyper, you know,
part of the hyper focused on political point scoring.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
That is just the reality.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
We need to change to a four year term and
it needs to be a fixed term because you're also
trying to always gain the system, hold the election on
a date that suits you when you've got momentum for
your party, again, no critique.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
That is a reality, but that's not always.
Speaker 5 (31:36):
In the country's interests. And so I do think that
we really need to have a really good look at
our democracy and why we can't change that and why
it's taken us so long to get to that point.
And I don't think it was being controversial. I think
we make our politicians look a lot longer into the future,
or at least a little, which is only a good thing.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So for a bit of context for us to change,
Australia to change to a four year fixed term, which
is what America has, It's what Britain has, it's what
lots of places happen.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Does a fixed term mean they don't get to decide?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, so fixed term. What they're talking about there is
that you go right, so the election is always on
November get whatever, or it always has to be before
this date, and that instead of three year terms, which
is what Australia has, you have four year terms. Now
the US do that, the UK do that. Actually, our
states and territories also do it. Our state and territory
elections I've never noticed, to be honest, always fall at
(32:29):
the same time and a fixed term. But for this
to happen at a federal level, that has to be
a referendum because it would be changing the constitution. So
when I was saying before that the Prime Minister's voice
support and both sides of politics have voiced support for this.
Over time, there is not very much appetite for a
referendum because we know how they go.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
After the break snaff and why it's all over your phone.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Wan unlimited out loud access.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
and Maya subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes
to get us in your ears five days a week,
and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
If you're wondering why being online seems so relentlessly exhausting
lately and why you're so often left with an anxiety, hangover,
or just a feeling of yuckiness as you scroll, it
could be because of snaff. The founder of BuzzFeed, Jonah
pretty recently wrote a think piece that explained the concept
(33:39):
of snaff and how it has come to dominate social media.
He says that social media has become overrun with snaff,
and snaff stands for s is for stakes, exaggerating the
stakes to make the content urgent and existential. N is
for novelty, manufacturing novelty, and spinning content as being this
(33:59):
has never happened before. A is for anger, manipulating people's
anger to drive engagement via outrage. R is for retention.
Retention hacks include like withholding info like wait till the end,
watch till the end, or clickbaiting. And F is for fear,
so really taking advantage of fear to make people focus
with urgency on the content. So he argues that the
(34:22):
social media overlords at Meta and TikTok don't care about
actual content. They care about keeping people addicted to scrolling
so that they can monetize our eyeballs for longer. I
think we all by this stage know that to be true.
And the result of that is this proliferation of a
particular type of content that the algorithm rewards aka snaff.
(34:44):
So it means that the type of content that gets
created and recommended isn't the best content, but the content
that elicits the most compulsive and predictable response from the
human brain. Is this ringing a little bit true for you, Jesson?
Speaker 4 (34:56):
My goodness, it explains literally everything from publishers to politicians,
to individual commentators.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Influencers TV shows.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
Yeah, yeah, I think I saw it over the weekend.
Sometimes there are attempts at snaff. There's a story that
people are like, this is rich with potential snaff. Let's
try and find it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
What's the snaff angle?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Where's the snaff in this?
Speaker 4 (35:18):
And I was watching it unfold over the weekend with
the another Simple Favor premiere because it's Blake Lively, right,
and the Blake Lively She's got it.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
It's a second movie sequel.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
It's a sequel with the it was the Anna Kendrick
movie and Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni was sort of
the ultimate snaff story. There was enormous novelty. The stakes
were so high. Either a woman was sexually assaulted or
she lied about it, which you know was anger fear,
and the retention was the receipts. It was like it
(35:49):
was perfect because you could do a fifteen minute TikTok
video on it with all the information and people were
just stuck to it. And so I saw attempts to
kind of find the snaff in this story over the weekend,
and there was a headline that I read this morning.
That was like Anna Kendrick's three word reply to a
quest about working with Blake Lively. And here's what she
(36:12):
actually said, What.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Does it mean to be working with Blake again? Does
that it? To be clear? All she said was oh,
you know, and then it feels like she got interrupted. Yeah,
like that was the entire story.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
So if you feel as though you go onto the
internet and everything feels existential, everything feels like life or death,
that the biggest commentators in Australia right now look as though,
I'm going to be completely honest about how I feel
about it. Look as though they are unwell because they
are stuck in this cycle.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Of everything's in emergency and.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Almost like mania of just you see them get on,
they're breathless. I don't actually think that's put on. I
think that you become so invested in the algorithm and
the reward. We're like mice with little every time we
press a button, we get a reward, and we're addicted
to this drug. And you see people radical themselves in
their ideas because they get like almost taken away by
(37:13):
the scale of the thing they're talking about.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Also, this is because all content is so examined now,
So to pull the curtain back a little bit, like
ever since I've worked at digital media, we know everything
about why people click on things, right, We've known that
for a very long time, and so in the old
days we used to call it clickbait, very similar to
snaff really like, make it seem really dramatic, hold back
something of novelty, make sure there's a reason to retain
(37:37):
them by clicking. You know all of those things, right,
And so we are all hyper data driven, and the
people who are constantly snaffing, I'm just trying to find
different ways to use the word because I love it
so much. Constantly snaffing on the Internet, obviously are doing
it for monetary reasons, engagement reasons, validation reasons.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Attention reasons.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
Literally there's a job, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Because they know it works. So you'll notice that with
any of the socials you follow, including ours, there'll be
a while where the headlines look like this, and then
they'll change and now they'll look like that, and then
there'll be a time when the pictures look like this,
and then they look like that. Isn't this just playing
people where they are? You know what I mean? Like
if it didn't work, we wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Do it well in a way, yes, because in order
to stay relevant and get views so that they can
make money, creators a force to make snaff content or
at least market the content that they make from a
snaff point of view. And what Jonah Pardi argues in
this piece is that snaff content is reshaping politics and
culture and society, and it's often producing hateful and misleading
(38:43):
or really destructive content. Because the one word that isn't
in there that I think ends should be more more
than for novelty. It should be for negativity because feel good,
positive content does not elicit that fight or flight or
fury response in you.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Right, I've had to I think we've probably all had
this as an editor. You have people come in or
even brands and they say, why don't we do some
good news And I've had to say, no, one gives
a shit about good news.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
And so it doesn't feel like an emergency exactly right.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
It doesn't kind of inspire any feeling in you. And
we've all played this game. I've had to play this
game and have felt myself do it online. There was
a great quote in this article about how the internet
used to serve beer and wine at a communal dinner party,
and now there's fentanyl and crack, and to try and
make people pay for wine when they can get crack
(39:36):
for free is very difficult.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
The whole Internet is running on crack and fentanyl.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yes, But I did think, as I agorithm as I
was reading this, I'm someone who probably turns towards criticism
of institutions, that monopoly that the tech industries have over
algorithms and all of that. I agree that this is
an algorithmic issue. I do think that individuals and publishers
(40:01):
need to take some responsibility, which is what BuzzFeed is doing.
But I think it's a cop out to go, well,
I'm just playing the algorithm. As someone who exists as
a person on the Internet and as a person in
the media, I have felt myself get sucked into the
vortex of snuff and I have felt myself have to
(40:21):
literally sit down and go what are your values?
Speaker 3 (40:24):
What are your boundaries?
Speaker 4 (40:25):
On the internet? What do you want to do? If
you are chasing an algorithm, you're going to end up
as a person you don't like. Because often you'll see
a piece of content and it might be funny, and
it's got novelty, and it's gone absolutely viral, and you go,
that is ultimately hateful. You've just spurted hate into the world.
You've not made the world better or anyone's day better.
(40:48):
And to resist that as someone who creates content is
really hard.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I think that's why a lot of us are looking.
A lot of content creators are looking to have a
smaller audience because the way to ride the algorithm is
with snuff. And in terms of it changing culture, you
can see it in so many ways. So in politics,
the obvious example is Trump. Trump is the ultimate snaff
political candidate versus someone like Joe Biden had his own issues.
(41:18):
But Kamala Harris is just like was fairly neutral. She
wasn't going to get the same amount of attention. Look
at in TV shows The Bachelor, there was not that
high stakes drama and it faded away only to re
replaced by maths, which is constant snaff, constant drama, outrage, scandal,
high stakes. So that's how you can see that it's
(41:40):
shaping the culture.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I think people are wise to snaff and have been
for a while, even if they didn't know what it
was called. Because if you look at news refusal. We've
talked about that a lot, people turning away from news.
I promise that it's only like two more days. I'm
allowed to resference Megan and everything. If a TV show
is a legitimate hit, it is for this reason in
lots of ways, well in two different ways. Partly it's
(42:02):
snaff bait because the people who hater will watch it
and go back. But the actual show itself, as you've
already said today, Maya is so inoffensive and pleasant. And
I know that I'm often looking for, particularly in audio,
like books or podcasts or things when I've been swimming
in the news cycle for days that do the opposite
(42:23):
and that will suit me enhich me, make me think
about things in a different way, but also just soothe
me and not freak me out. And I think that
we definitely have gotten wise to it.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
I think it's taken over news. There was a great
example in that story about the LA fires. How you
can get a week into a news event, no none
of the facts, but know the debates about DEI you've
seen fake images you to.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Be mad about today yelling it out us.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
We even said it last week with cyclone Alfred when
we were talking about that, it was a bizarre moment
because there was nobody to be angry at. Like the
news cycle relies on going, who can we yell at?
Because that's a story that.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The beginning of COVID was like that. Remember when no
one had an one to be angry at and it
was just felt strange and people were singing opera on
their balconies and sharing Kumbaya memes and then we're snaffed.
Then it got snaffed.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
We devolved into snuff. Our hands got sticky.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
With the snuff.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
That's all we've got time for today. Friends, A massive
thank you to all of you out louders for listening
to today's show and to our fabulous team for putting
it together. As always, we're going to be back in
your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Goodbye bye.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening. If you
love the show and want to support us as well,
subscribing to mom and Maya is the very best way
to do so. There is a link in the episode
description
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