March 13, 2025 • 43 mins
Who do you turn to when you need help or guidance in your life? In this episode, we discuss the irresistible pull of self-help gurus and why there’s only one right now who has absolutely met her moment - Mel Robbins.
Plus, we share our weekly recommendations. We’ve got books for you and something to put on your head while you're reading those books.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Is her background, and is her value system Catholic?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Like?
Speaker 4 (00:26):
Is that it because a lot.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Of everyone's value spitalism.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well, some of us are atleast trying to resist, but
I wonder if not so great.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud and to Friday,
where we talk about anything other than the news cycle.
Today it's the fourteenth of March, and my name is Hollywayne, right, I'm.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
And on the show today, take my money and tell
me what to do, the irresistible pool of self help
gurus and why there's only one right now who has
absolutely met her moment, Mel Robins. Also in recommendations today,
we've got books for you to read and a hat
to wear while reading them. And our best and worst
the week include terrible parenting, choices, flat social batteries, and
(01:13):
musical theater. But first me, in case you missed it,
married people are more likely to masturbate than people living alone.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
This is surprising to me.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I don't think it is surprised.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Why is it not surprising?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
How long have you been married?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I'm leaving it at that. We came across a list
of fun sex facts that I wanted to share with
the group. This is my favorite. According to the Kinsey Institute,
the average speed of sperm during ejaculation is forty five
kilometers per hour.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Sounds dangerous. Wow, sounds like it could take an eye out.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Shouldn't be in a school zone, I mean obviously, because
you'll get you get it fine, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
It's fine if it's after well, no, you shouldn't. You
shouldn't be in a school zone.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Now what if you just what if you're inside your
house but your house is within a school. A teaspoon
moving on. A teaspoon of semen contains five calories, and
a sperm takes one hour to swim seventeen centimeters, which
I guess seventeen centimeter is probably all you need from
your bag into the parts. Going any further, getting to alarm,
(02:24):
But it just seems quite slow, like an hour. Oh no,
you wouldn't want one in your lung. No, you've got
to stop, like, don't keep going. But I think it
feels a bit slow. An hour it does, it does
hurry along. Scientists are unsure why humans have pubic hair,
but they theorize that the hair traps secretions that hold
pheromones or sexual sense, so it's for the smell, special smell,
(02:49):
a special smell. Men who help with housework tend to
have more sex that really, statistics show, and women who
have difficulty reaching an orgasm might just have cold feet,
actual cold feet, because a study has found that giving
women warm socks increase their chance of reaching.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
And all should always have bed socks on very sexy,
maybe with.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah jewelry, like.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Because that will really turn your partner on.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I've noticed a lot of socks now I wanted to
buy some more socks. Not so much for this reason,
but can't hurt a lot of socks. They're called studio socks,
and I assume they're for like doing pilates and stuff,
or maybe doing sexual positions.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Where we'd have to They've got little grips on the.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Bottom, so I don't know. Maybe if you're like in
an interesting position, having grips on the bottom of your
warm socks would help.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
You could stick to a wall.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, like Spider Man to the ceiling in the.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Air Okay, all right, Friday Friday stuff spider Man.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Spider Man, Spider can.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Size just like guys.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Been in a situation where maybe your buddies organize a
golf trip and they don't include you, or the women
in your life go away for a weekend and you're
not invited, Or a friend, a friend that you adore,
is dating a real asshole, somebody who's horrible for them.
I mean, how much does you worrying about it? How
is that going to change anything? It's not How does
(04:37):
spending two hundred hours talking to your friend about this
horrible person over and over and over? How does that
How it doesn't let them.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
The twenty tens had Brene Brown telling us all to
be brave. The Naughties had Tony Robbins walking on hot coals.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I didn't like that.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
That was way too much. Also, I know people who
did it, though, I know people who did this. Ver
cool voice loud.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
The nineties had John Gray with his men are from Mars,
women from Venale.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I know you did.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I thought that was great.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
This is one divisions in our relationship.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
May is such a basic news from Mars.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I still talk about that a lot that book, and
of course all the decades mostly Oprah. Every era has
its Zeitgey self help guru, and twenty twenty five has
unequivocally crowned mel Robins. Yes of let them fame, more
about let them in a moment. Robin's podcast is currently
the number one in Australia, which we're not at all
bitter about because we're number three. Robins is huge. She's
(05:37):
been doing this for a while, so she has been
a life coach and a motivational speaker for over a
decade and until this massive breakthrough moment, she'd built an
empire from kind of really down home, like kind of
like your grandma would have told you this advice. So
it's quite.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Bossy, Like I've been chusing her for probably more than
five years. And she had a ted talk that went viral.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
About the five second role procrastination.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, and she's got a really great backstory which we'll
get to in a second, a good origin story, and
she's very sort of no nonsense.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So she's like, jump out of bed in the morning
and get outside, don't procrastinate, that's the five second rule.
Think positively all the time. She's like, whether you think
you can, or you think you can't. You're right like
that kind of stuff. A short walk solves most problems,
make everyone else's day a little bit better. So very
like solid white beddy kind of She's.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Not wu Wu.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
She's not wu Wu. She's sold millions of books, She's
had billions of podcast streams. A little tiny bit about
her origin story before we get into the let them phenomena,
because every guru needs one Robins's self reinvention. At forty one,
she was unemployed. She'd gone broke from a failed business
venture that left her and her husband with eight hundred
(06:53):
thousand dollars in debt. She says that she was miserable
and unhappy. She said, my past was full of shitty behavior.
I used to be a real competitive, insecure asshole, and
I hurt people and blah blah blah. Right, Jesse, I
don't know how to tell you this next bit because
you're not gonna like it. Before she was a life
coach and a motivational speaker. She was a criminal lawyer,
and she was on happy and dissatisfied. So she's got
(07:14):
a law degree. She was working as a criminal lawyer.
She went to a life coach to say, what should
I do with my life? I'm unhappy and dissatisfied. The
life coach told her she should be a life coach,
and so she launched, and so it begins, and her
two self help companies and quickly and this reputation as
a tough love personal improvement coach mia. Why is this
(07:38):
Mel Robbins's moment?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I think the news cycle has never been more intense
than it's been sort of this past eighteen months, between
war and Trump and algorithms, and everyone's just feeling very besieged.
And what the let them theory is, and let them
is about recognizing things you can't control. Essentially, it's about
(08:03):
if if someone's not dating you and then not interested,
let them not be interested. If you're partner wants to
end the relationship, let them. If your kid hasn't taken
his lunch to school again, let them be hungry. And
it's that idea of personal empowerment, but in a very
passive way.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So what she's.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Actually doing, I think everyone's so tired. Remember Cheryl Samberg,
who is another bit of a self help guru, that
was all about leaning. That was the girl Boss era,
and that was hustle culture. Mel Robbins and let them
is about lie down.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's about stop.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Trying to change people, stop trying to change things, stop
trying to control every outcome. Just accept what you can't
change about others, like the Serenity prayer, and work on
what you can change and what you can do. And
I think that there's something really appealing about that. It's
also short, it's simple. Her advice is not, as I said,
(09:00):
it's not wu wu. It's not like soul food. It
doesn't require a lot of self reflection. It's very practical.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
In fact, she doesn't really like self reflection much. Jesse,
why do you think we're so addicted to being told
what to do?
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I reckon we all feel woefully unqualified to make any
decisions about our own lives. And I actually don't think
that's entirely new. I was thinking about how my grandmother
would have gone to her priest, and over the weekend
we were at synagogue. Maya was speaking and a rabbi
was on the panel, and I thought I would love
(09:34):
an hour with a rabbi to just really corner her
and got very wise, can you solve them? And this
is still I mean, all over the world there are
lots of religious people who turned to a monk or
an or a a rabbi or a priest to help them,
and I think that Mel Robbins has actually used a
few techniques and language that mirrors this. For example, she
(10:00):
often says I just happened to be the messenger. I
just happened to be the messenger of this, which.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Is very, very Jesus.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And she has this email that she sends out and
she says, in case nobody else tells you today, let
me be the first to say that I love you,
and I believe in you and your ability to create
a better life. Unconditional love is nice, yes, but I
think that the demise of religion has left a wide
open hole.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And we've filled it with celebrities for a little while,
didn't they.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, But I.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Think that there's still this sense of I don't know
what to do. I was reading a few interviews with
people who said, you know, this sounds weird, but I
feel like she has my back. And when I've spoken
to people who are very religious, the thing I'm most
envious of is they say, I feel like someone's watching
out for me, like someone has some greater plan, Like
Mel Robbins will often say the universe has a plan
(10:49):
blah blah blah, and so I think there's an element
of that. But I guess the question I would ask
is that when you have religious people say the priest
answer you, or you go to them with a crisis,
they have a methodology. They have centuries of texts and
conversations and ethics and values that inform their answer. If
(11:12):
you go to a psychologist, they have a methodology which
is research based evidence. My worry about certain gurus is
when you go, what's your methodology other than what sounds
right and what feels right.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And what's going to go viral and what's.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Going to go viral? How do we know to trust you?
Because where's this information coming from?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
What Mel Robbins is and all of those people that
are listed at the beginning were they're just very good communicators, right,
Because Mel Robbins is obviously smart. She's obviously smart, she's
obviously experienced in this field. But what she's saying, and
she says this herself, like I've been listening to it.
I was listening to her quite a lot the other
day on a long drive, and she'll say herself, this
(11:52):
is all stuff your grandmother would have told you, if
you'd have had the kind of grandmother who tells you
things which in itself tells you something about the way
our families are now. She said, I'm going to tell
you in simple terms, and then I'm going to give
you a trick to remember it. It's not that she's
come up with all these brilliant ideas necessarily, but she's
very good at packaging them, and she's very good at communicating,
and that's the key. The thing that's interesting about it
(12:13):
is that mel Robins and I'm distant criticism of her,
like I find her advice very interesting and helpful lots
of ways. But she doesn't really have you back, guys.
She's just making a lot of money. She's doing not
in a nefarious way. She's selling a product that people
need and want. Because I think me is absolutely spot
on when she's like, our lives feel out of control.
Everything feels out of control. Even the most ordinary life
(12:36):
has a lot of problems in it. We all have
a lot of problems in five. And the thing that
self help, over the decades that it's established itself as
being very mainstream has convinced us off is that we
can solve them. If only we tried harder, if only
we got up earlier, if only we did whatever, then
we can solve them. It's up to us. She's the
same vein as all that, She's just packaged it a
(12:57):
bit differently. It's interesting because she even starts her podcast
by saying, Hi, it's your friend mel here, and it's like,
you know, like I find that a tiny bit. I
think maybe that's also because I'm not American that I
find the tiny bit. I can see through it. You know.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
It's also that therapy speaking, psychobabble and all of that.
It's ubiquitous everywhere at the moment. The rise of that
has not dovetailed with a rise in accessibility. So everyone
thinks they need a therapist, but most people can't afford one.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So mel Ron know how to go about even getting no.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
So mel Robins can be your therapist for free. On
that on she's trying to sell you something. I do
wonder and I listen to a lot of her advice.
I don't think she is the same as the other
gurus because I look at Brene Brown, who had decades
of expertise and academia and studies and she was saying
something grounded in.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Science, and she is still around, and she's still still.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Around in a way that Mel Robbin's what she's saying
isn't necessarily grounded in science, or at least she doesn't
show us her working out. But she started as a
business coach, and I think that that might be a
clue to what her values.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
That's that you've just made me realize. That's how I
found her. I was starting to look at around when
I was doing ladies startup and I started to look
at some of the women, other women in that space.
This is probably more than five years ago now, and
that's when I found her. It was about business, and
it was about content creation and reaching an audience and
(14:22):
doing all of those things.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
A clue to.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
What data or methodology she's bringing to her advice is
her background? And is her value system capitalism?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Like?
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Is that it because a lot.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Of see everyone's value system isism.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Well, some of us are at least trying to resist.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
But I wonder if not so great because a lot
of her advice is very, very individualistic. It's very if
you help yourself, you'll help others ah, and that it's
not systemic it's not institutional.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's about accountability.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
It's about accountability.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And taking responsibility for yourself.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
One thing I think we've we've probably got to acknowledge
is that a lot of the people who have reported
on her and done features and gone and listened to
her speak is Wow, that's a lot of white women.
I'm not saying that white women don't have problems or
that they're not a legitimate market, but the fact that
there is a sort of homogeneous market for her, I
think says something about what the problems of the white
woman is. And maybe it's that if you can feed
(15:23):
your family and if you feel safe, and if you're
a middle class woman in America, then you worry about X,
Y and Z.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I don't know about that. What do you think You're
not wrong about who her audience is. But I think,
as I was saying before, every life is very complex.
You only have to scratch the tiny surface of seed
that what people are actually going through in terms of
illness and divorce and money struggles and estrangement from family
members and addiction issues like that applies to all of those.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Do you think she appeals Is it as simple as
she's a white woman, so she looks like I think.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
She's very palatable and packageable. She's like, you know, blonde
and attractive. But I just think she's a really good communicator.
I think that she's ading to and I think the
meeting her moment thing I think me nails it about
let them and the uncontrollable moment. But also it's interesting
is she's a political right I've listened to a lot
of interviews with her. She can have a bit of
a snipe about Trump, but she's smart enough to know
(16:20):
that that's a lot of her market. So she's kind
of she's talking to sort of every woman in a way,
like every woman, I'm sure, as you say, this is
definitely a demographic there, but she's not alienating anyone. She's
not making everything political. It's kind of like a mix
of This is quite soothing to listen to, and also
you've end up listening to her and you're like, yes,
(16:41):
I am going to get up at six o'clock. Yes
I am going to talk to myself in the mirror
like somebody who likes themselves and all those things.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So two of her other philosophies in addition to let
them one is the high five trick, and it's every
morning you get up, you brush your teeth, and you
look in the mirror and you give yourself a high five.
Our production team are just high fiving each other now
as we speak. But her point is that we are programmed.
When you give a high five gesture, you are positive,
(17:12):
you are active, you are all of those things, and
by doing that, you can't not be, so it almost
tricks you, no matter how bad you're feeling. The other
one is the five second rule for stopping procrastination, and
that is to literally say to yourself, I'm going to
count down from five to zero, and when I get
to zero, I'm going to do it. Whether it's getting
(17:32):
up out of bed, answering an email, calling someone, you always.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Speak, but going back to the gap that's been left.
And to be clear, when I talk about my my
nan going to the priest, yeah, he was always a man,
and there are so many limitations issues.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
With you go with their own agenda to their own agenda.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And didn't he pretty much The answer was always say
Hail Mary's and you know, go back and look after
your children, Tino of your life.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Well, not necessarily of someone's life, but I'm thinking even
about the rabbi is they have these scriptures in these books,
and underpinning a lot of it was this sense of
community and social cohesion, a lot.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Of what or it's your fault or it's.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Your fault, and let's not forget the homophobia and the
sexism and all that and putting that to the side
for a minute. Mel Robbins, I mean, high fiving the
mirror isn't going to change the world.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But it's not trying to. That's what self help is.
Self help isn't about helping other people. And I think
that's another reason why she's met the moment. I think
that two things. For the last few years, we've seen
a real rise in victim culture where whoever's got the
biggest hardship wins, and there's a real sense of your
(18:41):
wounds are your evidence or is the greatest most important
part of you? Your wounds bring status, your disadvantages bring status.
She's very much the opposite of that. She's very much
like there's nothing to be said for walloweing there's strength
in making change, and you can't change systemic inequality, you
(19:03):
can't change the economy.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I think that that's a paladin.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
As an individual You can't. But what you can do
is get out of bed in the morning, high five yourself,
and feel better. And we know that the key to
making any positive change, whether it's outside your life or
inside your life, is feeling good. If you feel miserable
and your self esteem is low and you're procrastinating, you're
of no good to anyone.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
True.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
But I think that there's a difference between Brene Brown, right,
it was all about vulnerability and connection. Interestingly is Mel
Robins because in saying let them, there's a bit of
siloing there, which is sort of like I'm going to
do my thing. And I listened to a bunch of
Mel Robins in preparation for this, and I like her.
I'm not trying to I've just got some questions about
(19:51):
what she says. She uses the word winning a lot,
and like you are going to be the winner and
the past you would have been a loser and all
that kind of stuff. And I'm just a little bit
allergic to the individualism of her.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
But that's your self help.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Is I understand exactly what you mean, though, Jesse, Because
although I'm a big believer that a short walk solves
every problem, and getting out of bed blah blah. But
it is true that it's not going to solve all
the problems in the world. To pull yourself up by
your bootstraps, just toughen up and get on with it.
Really isn't helpful in lots of situations, but it is
helpful in some small situations. And I think that me
(20:31):
is right that what we're talking about here, and what
Mel Robbins is addressing, is what can you control what's
in your circle influence. I don't think that means you
shouldn't be thinking about inequality, and I don't think that
means she shouldn't be thinking about how do I make
a difference to the world. I think that that's a
very important thing to be thinking about. But in terms
of you and your world, that's where Mel Robins has
some answers for you. Whether or not she's about connection,
(20:52):
she does talk about it. She does talk about I've
listened to some of the podcasts where she's like, obviously
it's great to be rich and successful and all those things,
but she's like, but do you want to be standing
on the top of the mountain alone? Really, we're all
about our people around us. Really, those messages are all
quite similar in the end, how loud is in a moment,
something to read, something to wear, and something to listen to.
Speaker 6 (21:12):
It's our recommendations, vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
It's right.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So we're going to help set up your weekend with
our best recommendations. Holly, what am I doing?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay? So I just finished listening to a beautiful book.
You know how people often say, how do you guys
read and listen to and watch things. I've hacked away
to read two books at once. I listened to one
and I read another. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I've
been listening to a book that isn't new, but it's
sort of back in the zeitgeist because later this year
a movies coming out of this book that stars Jillian Anderson,
(21:57):
who's obviously a goddess of great status, and it's called
The Salt Path and it's British book and it's by
this woman called rain and Win, so she narrates it.
And the reason that I was listening to it is
somebody recommended it to me who I interviewed on mid
and it's about this woman. It's kind of think of
like Wild where Cheryl Strayed went off and walked that
big track on her own to find herself and cure
(22:17):
herself with alcoholism. This is about this English couple who
lose everything. They've got grown up kids who are going
after university. They're like comfy middle class people. Actually, mel
Robins would have a lot to say to these people.
They live a comfy middle class life. They've been living
on this beautiful farm in Wales for like twenty years
and they've restored it and it's their world, and they
lose it all in a scam. They literally are penniless
(22:38):
and they're at this point in the life going what
are we going to do? They decide that rather than
take a council house, which they do and will end
up doing eventually, I'm sure, but they go on a
long walk and they basically become homeless. But instead of
being homeless in the city and in the system, they
just put backpacks on and walk.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's a memoir. It's true. It's one hundred
percent true.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Like proper Grainer and the other.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Thing that happens just before they do this, So they
lose everything they've ever owned, and then moth he's the
husband gets diagnosed with an incurable degenerative disease, so everything's
gone to shit. They're fifty and they're like, what do
we do? And their kids obviously think they're crazy. They're
grown up kids. They put their backpacks on and they
walk on this really long walk. Now, the book is
(23:20):
really interesting because it makes you think about lots of things.
It sounds a bit like a classic like spiritual finding
yourself story, and it kind of is great. But because
they're literally broke while they're doing this, they can't eat.
They get something like thirty pounds a fortnight put in
their bank account by like the pension or something, so
they're hanging out for that. So they're like trying to
(23:42):
find ways to literally survive. They can only comp places
that are free. They do lots of frankly quite irresponsible,
like verging on illegal things. He's got this terrible illness.
He's getting worse. Like it's such an amazing book that
listening to it. The woman Rayna Winn who wrote it
so won lots of awards. It became a really big book.
It came out in twenty eighteen, but this year it's
a movie and Rayna Winn narrates it. She's got this
(24:06):
beautiful English accent with a slight kind of range voice,
and it's just such an interesting story and I loved it.
It's that right makes of like it's soothing, but it's
also like, oh, what are you doing, you idiots, and
like how could you do that? And lots things about
what it means to be homeless, blah blah blah. It's
called The Saltpath by Rayna When and I loved it.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Maya, I'm going to recommend a hat maybe that you
could wear while you're going on a long walk. Avenue
Hats are an Australian lady startup, a small business female
founders focused on sustainable designs. I love hats. I've got
a lot of caps and I like also straw ish hats.
(24:46):
I don't know what these are made out of, but
they're a bit like RAFFI A, yeah, that soft. But
what I love about them this is the kicker. You
can just scrunch them up and put them in your bag,
in your suitcase, in your bag. And they sent me
a couple and when I looked at them, one of
them is like kind of like a straw color. Two
of them are, and then one of them is like
navy and cream stripes, and I thought, oh no, I
(25:09):
wouldn't wear that, and then I put it on and
I bloody loved it. Super comfy and just gives you
very good coverage because sometimes when you're a cap, it's
just that little bit at the front and that all
the sun gets in on the sites.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I have had so many outlouders message me about getting
a skincats check after I talked about it recently and said,
BCCs around the forehead. And when I went back for
my check up, he looked at my part because I
part my hair the same all the time, and he said,
that's where you've got to be careful of. I can
see it's pink. Like every time you're going outside. It
isn't enough to do sunscreen. You have to have something
(25:42):
on you.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
When you think about it, it's true. So you've got
to a hat because you can't really put sunscreen on
your scalp maybe yesh exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
And the hat that you're going to wear that you
can scrunch up in your backpack or your bag or
whatever is the one that, like you should have, so
that's very smart.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
So they're super great. They're around one hundred and twenty dollars.
They're not cheap, but they're very sustainable and you will
have this forever. They're fantastic.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
I have a book recommendation as well, is called Better
Days by claares On.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
And I get asked to endorse a lot of books,
and most of them I do not endorse.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I keep hearing about this book oh so good.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
So I was given it and I actually read it
on the weekend. I was away, like close to Berry
and just read it on this weekend. Absolutely went through
it so fast. And it's set in Sydney. It's about
motherhood and ambition and marriage and this relationship she had
in her twenties that ended, but sort of it's unresolved.
(26:37):
You know when you read a book and you fall
in love with a writer, like you fall in love
with their tone and their voice. It was that, and
it happened from the first page.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
It was so warm.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I haven't heard a bad word about this book. It
felt at first like a smallish story about a really
believable life. She has kids in this big job and
it's about creativity. But it just went to the most
interesting places and it had me so so engrossed. So
it's called Better Days. It's only come out I think
like Last Week or something by Klaerzon and Australian writer.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
You'll love it. We'll put links in the show notes
to all ofs and also thank you to whichever one
of you recommended the wedding People. That was me, I
just finished. I don't think it was me. I just
finished that. I really love that too. Who she got
any other books?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I think she might. I think she might.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I really loved her style.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yeah yeah, after the break, a fight with technology, a
night of entertainment, and a depleted social battery. It is
our Best and Worst.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
It's time for Best and Worst.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
This is a part of the show where we share
a little bit more from our week from our personal lives. Holly,
what was your worst?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
So my best and my worst are both technolo related.
My worst is the ever ongoing battle with technology and
our offspring, which every parent knows about. But also I
hid a new low this week, which was, look, I'm
one of those people. I've read the Jonathan Heights. I know.
I know that the world is being ruined and my
children are being ruined by technology. I know that. But
(28:29):
still on the weekend, did I allow my son to
purchase very expensive virtual reality headset that will guarantee that
he no longer lives in my house? It just lives
now in some kind of other world with avatars and
people with heads of animals. Yes, I absolutely did, because
one of the things about technology is that I fired
(28:50):
it all the time. And my teenage boys. We all
know it's a stereotype, but it's kind of true. In
my house. Girls tend to be more into social media
and media, and boys tend to be more into gaming.
And Billy has always been quite into gaming. He has
wanted one of those virtual headset things for about four years,
and I've always said no. Little bugger just started saving
up his money, saving up his money. He put a
(29:13):
chart in his room of like how far away he
was from the dream then, and he was like chipping
away and chipping away, and then You're like, how do
I not reward this? And then he's like, you can
put any rules you want around it. You can do anything,
and you've got all the voices of all of the
collective wisdom of the village going, don't do it, don't
do it. And then we did it anyway.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So I he's smart, and I think that's great parents
because he learned about saving well he did.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
But when I now walk into the house and he's
so weird to have somebody in your house with this
weird so I know, I can imagine the emails I'm
going to get with the big light thing on, and
he's just like waving his hands in the air like
it's just weird. I don't like it.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
His husband got some of those and was wearing them
in bed, not in a sexual way, but just in
a weird like, you know, and she would send photos
of me to me of just like him next to
her in bed, and I'm like, dude, do you never
want to have sex again?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Is that your They're so weird anyway. But my best
is also technology because I've been you remember we had
that conversation about AI the other week. I've been using
AI to do my kids homework, and so my kids, Matilda,
particularly now that she's fifteen, her homework is hard. And
I was never very good at school, like well, I
(30:29):
was always really good at English, and I was good
at things like history, but math science absolutely forget it.
So I can't do anything that she's doing. So my
new best friend is to use the AI.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Why isn't she doing it herself?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Well, no, she is doing it herself. But in order
to get her to do it, she's like, help me,
help me, And I'm like, I can't help you. But
what I can do is I can sit there with
my AI assistant and so tells me how to help her.
It tells you how to explain. I don't get the
AI to do it, got it right, like, because that
would be bad parenting even for me. What I do
(31:05):
is I ask my AI assistant if you were trying
to work out out what fraction of this thing was
this things, how would you go about doing it? And
the AI assistant gives you like really simple kind of
like well, first of all, you've got to work out
the BLA and tells me that so then I can
talk through it. So I'm not giving her the answer,
but it's basically like me having a tutor to help tudor.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I had to do something for work recently where I
was trying to work out what percentage increase was this
number on this number to say, I don't even give
me a calculator.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
I don't know how to work it out.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, So I went to my chatbot and I was like,
what's the percentage increase? And then it did all It
was being a bit braggy like it was doing all
the fraction stuff, and I was like, I don't.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Need to see work to see that simple. I just
needed to.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Get whereas I needed to see the working out. And
it's made me a more because before I discovered that
this was an impression of me, Well, I don't know
what do you mean? And then I get cranky, I
jump up.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Then she goes, I just need some help.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I thought you wanted me to do my homework blah
blah blah blah blah, ai' making the world better.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I also feel like homeworks hard than it used to be.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I was a tutor for a long time and would
be shootering a kid who was, you know, in year
five or year six English or something, and he'd go, oh,
I have a maths question and I was like, I
don't know how to do your two maths like divisions
was like harkeed, and I.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Just went, I'm I'm panicking. I'm panicking, may or what's
your worst?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
My worst is the depletion of my social battery. Like
you know how often with your devices they lose battery
over time, they get worse and worse at recharging. I
feel like that's me. I did an interview on No
Filter a couple of years ago about the seven different
types of rest and how you can feel really tired,
but it has nothing to do with sleep. Might be
(32:50):
that you're depleted in another area of rest that you need.
It might be around mental rest, emotional rest, and social
rest was one that I'd never heard of, but that
really spoke to me. And I've noticed that I need
more and more time on my own. So I used
to think of myself as an extrovert, and the way
that apparently distinguished between extroverts and introvert is that extroverts
(33:11):
are recharged by being with people broadly, and introverts are
recharged by being with themselves. And I'm finding that I'm
moving from extrovert to introvert and that I need more
and more time on my own, and I'm finding that
harder and harder to get because I love my friends.
I really want to see my friends. Work for us
(33:32):
is very social innately because we work with our friends
and we work, you know, I also work with my family,
and I work with lots of great women. Then we
have great chats all through the day. But I'm just
getting more and more tired.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
And I wonder if you've been thrust into like early
parenthood again because you find Luna very cut feeling. But
you spend a lot of time with Luna, and I
wonder if a lot of the time that you were
spending on your own recharging is now spent with a
you know, nearly two year olds.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
That's really interesting. I find that being with Luna is
spiritual rest for me because it comes from a different
cup than my social battery, or a different battery than
my social battery. Like sometimes I might want to be
on my own, but that's kind of different. She fills
me up in a different way. I think there's probably
some truth in that, though, because a lot of my
time on my own is now with her, which I
(34:19):
bloody love.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
When you're on your own. Just one more questions on
this matter. When you're on your own, are you socializing
though on your phone? So you're not actually resting, that's socializing.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Maybe that's part of it because my group chats are
always cracking on, and I crack on as well on
the group chat, so maybe that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You're not really.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
No, I agree with you. It's not proper social dreamy rest.
I love that. Okay, I'll think about that. And my
best is, as you said, Jesse, I did a panel
for International Women's Day and met a whole lot about
louders afterwards, and what was so interesting was how many
of them said, you guys got me through COVID, you
(35:02):
guys got me through lockdown, and I'd sort of forgotten
about not forgotten about it, but there are so many
out louders who discovered us during that time. And we
made the decision. I don't know how or why. I
think it was just instinctive that we increase the number
of episodes that we did during COVID.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
I remember Holly suggesting it.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I was initially against it, and then it was only
going to be a COVID thing because we went you know,
and then it's stuck and we don't remember.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
How crazy that was. We all, I mean, everyone's got
their stories about that, but we all had to learn
how to record ourselves from home. The entire business did,
of course, and we never done it, and we weren't
allowed to be together to learn, and then for months
we never saw each other. You two did, but we
weren't in the same.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Which was its own challenge.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
It was so wild, I mean. And anyway, so that
connection that we had with the out louders was very
genuine fust too, right, like it was exactly so.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I feel like a lot of us bonded during that time.
And there have been so many new outluders join the community,
which has just been wonderful. And it just, you know,
a lot of what we do is behind a microphone
and we don't get to see our audience. We sense them,
but it was just lovely to meet a lot of
them in person.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
My worst is that I have I've been getting these
tension headaches all last week and I didn't know what
it was. I kept being like, oh, should I go
to the doctor about this? And then over the weekend
it was coming on at the same time every day
and it happened during an interview I was doing. It
happened I was doing a television thing and I go, oh,
because it makes me really irritable, like because I can't concentrate.
(36:28):
And then I was sitting there over the weekend, I
touched my head and it was like I could feel it,
like I could feel exactly where it was. And I
ended up going and getting a massage, which was like
the best massage ever, and I said, I've got these
tension headaches.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
And she did neck and.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Shoulders and head and everything and it was like a
spot where it was like clicking on my forehead.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
So it wasn't sinuses because sometimes I can know tension shoulders.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, I get the same thing, especially if I've been
riding a lot, driving a lot, stressing a lot, and
then the headaches come and then you're stressed about the
headache and then you send yourself to self headed in
spiral massuses. Oh.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
It was so it was so good because I just went,
I've been taking neuropyin every day. This this can't be good.
So yes actually made a big difference. My best was
MJ the.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Musical I know controversial.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
I'm just gonna be honest.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
I got a media invite which now extends to Simon,
my cousin who has disability, loves these musicals. Yeah, and
when I saw that it was Michael Jackson, I was like,
he's he is going to love it because he loves
Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I'm not fantastic music.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I'm not gonna rull Michael Jackson for him.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Do you love Michael Jackson like the music? I'm talking,
we're talking strict the music. Were you like, oh, yeah,
that'll be a banger.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
I remember, like I grew up listening to Michael Jackson
music and really enjoying it, and there is so much
that it's like, we don't play his music as much
anymore for very very good reason. But when I saw it,
I went, Okay, Simon's gonna love it, so I rsvapid.
We went here are some facts about the musical.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Right, are you worried about getting canceled?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
No? I didn't cry. I saw a lot of people
posting about MJ the musical, and I was a tiny
bit surprised because I was like, I thought we weren't
doing Michael Jackson anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, Well, someone said to me media personality, we were
having a chat as we left, and she said.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
The merch stand is a little quiet, isn't it good?
I was like, yeah, yeah, probably people.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Who didn't go because they felt uncomfortable. As much as
you can love the music, they felt uncomfortable about I
assume that all the allegations were not covered in the musical.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
No, and I've got some insights about that. But the
actual musical nominated for ten Tony Awards, one of the
highest grossing musical theater productions of all time, and it
has become one of the highest rating Broadway shows by
the audience ever.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Can I ask a question, yes, how old is it
the musical?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Then?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Has it been around for ten years?
Speaker 4 (38:43):
It was just around like twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
And then it's all Helps Jackson.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yes, But interestingly so it's set in nineteen ninety two
during the Dangerous tour, and this is when his appearance.
Knows job that was all the controversy, his relationship with.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
His dad, So it's about him, yes, but it's.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
A moment in time where it goes he's preparing for
this tour and I went, I wonder if they're going
to deal with it, And there's one line that kind
of says separate art from artist, which you know it's
really yeah, but I looked into it. In the first
allegation against Michael Jackson was early nineteen ninety three, so
I think they've specifically chosen this moment to go. He
(39:23):
meant something different in nineteen ninety two, did well remember
the wacko Jacko stuff? It was all that anyway. The
cast is incredibly diverse. The person who plays Michael Jackson
is Roman Banks, who is one of the best stars
I've ever seen on stage, best dancing I've ever seen
a musical.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Would be a tough gig. Playing Michael Jackson in the music.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
The voice, the dancing, the moonwalk, the robot that like
all of that. It was like watching an extended Michael
Jackson film clip. There were two standing ovations before interval.
I think, was it just the music from that period
or was it all No, it went back to like
Jackson five. There was a little like a little Michael
Jackson and do.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
They do the thriller dance?
Speaker 4 (40:01):
They did?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Oh, that's the main thing. I mean they did. I
learned that at school at high school.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
It was interesting because Michael Jackson at that point, the
relationship with his dad was really interesting, the motown, the
Quincy Jones, the significance of him being a black man,
the changing color of his skin. He'd been burned, like
actually burned, and that's why he had this he started
taking the painkillers. It didn't explicitly acknowledge the horrendous allegations
(40:29):
against him, which have to always be part of his story.
But I don't think any of us have the answer
about how you separate art from an artist, how you
go to really challenge This is a complicated story. And
later this year a movie called Michael is coming out
where his nephew plays him. This conversation about Michael Jackson
(40:50):
is coming up again in twenty twenty five. I think
it's going to be a really, really big one. I
know that his alleged victims have come out and spoken
just in the last few weeks.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
But part of me was like, I feel like I'm here.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Supporting a diverse, talented cast have been going to musical
theater for a long time, But.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
You're also also supporting the state, which is but the estate.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Children brothers, Yeah, who, Like I don't have.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Any thing you shouldn't have gone. I just think it's complicated.
It is complicated. It absolutely is.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I agree, because who doesn't like Michael jacks music. But
the thing is is it's that thing of separating the
art from the artist. Is one thing you can listen
to Michael Jackson in your house. Does it need to
have a movie and a musical and all these things
alongside these terrible allegations?
Speaker 1 (41:35):
What do you do though?
Speaker 3 (41:35):
When he was unequivocally like one of the biggest artists
to ever exist, like.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Can you move away?
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I don't think his state wants to quietly move away?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
No, no, exactly right. Anyway, it was fascinating and it
was a great musical, and I did think I was
sitting there going this is really complicated for the alleged victims.
So it's definitely complicated, but far out it's a great musical.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Is that, my friends, is all we have time for.
On our Friday show, we're done for the week. We
hope you've had a good one with us. We hope
if you're in certain parts of the country you're drying out.
And thank you so much for being here with us
all week. Mia and Jesse take us home.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
A big thank you to our team. Group Executive producer
Ruth Devine.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Executive producer Emiline Gazillis, our audio producer is Leah Porgies, our.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Video producer is Josh Green, and our junior content producers
are Coco and Tessa. Goodbye.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
If you are looking for something else to listen to,
yesterday's subscriber episode was all about the last two.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Episodes of The White Lotus.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
We talked about that full frontal that we weren't expecting,
a bit of a shot jump skip. Also, we cannot
stop thinking about those three women, the dynamic between them
being sent to some very funny resorts.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
That was a scary sound in the background. Well, Linda
is hearing some scary sounds in her room, and I
was just mimicking that.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
We had so much fun just basically putting all our theories.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Out there for frontal.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Flask was yeah, exactly right, all the easter eggs. So
have a listen to that if you're into The White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Lincoln's show notes, shout out to any Mom and me
a subscribers listening. If you love the show and want
to support us as well, subscribing to Mom and Miya
is the very best way to do so. There is
a link in the episode description,
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Is her background, and is her value system Catholic?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Like?
Speaker 4 (00:26):
Is that it because a lot.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Of everyone's value spitalism.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well, some of us are atleast trying to resist, but
I wonder if not so great.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud and to Friday,
where we talk about anything other than the news cycle.
Today it's the fourteenth of March, and my name is Hollywayne, right, I'm.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
And on the show today, take my money and tell
me what to do, the irresistible pool of self help
gurus and why there's only one right now who has
absolutely met her moment, Mel Robins. Also in recommendations today,
we've got books for you to read and a hat
to wear while reading them. And our best and worst
the week include terrible parenting, choices, flat social batteries, and
(01:13):
musical theater. But first me, in case you missed it,
married people are more likely to masturbate than people living alone.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
This is surprising to me.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I don't think it is surprised.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Why is it not surprising?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
How long have you been married?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I'm leaving it at that. We came across a list
of fun sex facts that I wanted to share with
the group. This is my favorite. According to the Kinsey Institute,
the average speed of sperm during ejaculation is forty five
kilometers per hour.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Sounds dangerous. Wow, sounds like it could take an eye out.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Shouldn't be in a school zone, I mean obviously, because
you'll get you get it fine, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
It's fine if it's after well, no, you shouldn't. You
shouldn't be in a school zone.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Now what if you just what if you're inside your
house but your house is within a school. A teaspoon
moving on. A teaspoon of semen contains five calories, and
a sperm takes one hour to swim seventeen centimeters, which
I guess seventeen centimeter is probably all you need from
your bag into the parts. Going any further, getting to alarm,
(02:24):
But it just seems quite slow, like an hour. Oh no,
you wouldn't want one in your lung. No, you've got
to stop, like, don't keep going. But I think it
feels a bit slow. An hour it does, it does
hurry along. Scientists are unsure why humans have pubic hair,
but they theorize that the hair traps secretions that hold
pheromones or sexual sense, so it's for the smell, special smell,
(02:49):
a special smell. Men who help with housework tend to
have more sex that really, statistics show, and women who
have difficulty reaching an orgasm might just have cold feet,
actual cold feet, because a study has found that giving
women warm socks increase their chance of reaching.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
And all should always have bed socks on very sexy,
maybe with.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah jewelry, like.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Because that will really turn your partner on.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I've noticed a lot of socks now I wanted to
buy some more socks. Not so much for this reason,
but can't hurt a lot of socks. They're called studio socks,
and I assume they're for like doing pilates and stuff,
or maybe doing sexual positions.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Where we'd have to They've got little grips on the.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Bottom, so I don't know. Maybe if you're like in
an interesting position, having grips on the bottom of your
warm socks would help.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
You could stick to a wall.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, like Spider Man to the ceiling in the.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Air Okay, all right, Friday Friday stuff spider Man.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Spider Man, Spider can.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Size just like guys.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Been in a situation where maybe your buddies organize a
golf trip and they don't include you, or the women
in your life go away for a weekend and you're
not invited, Or a friend, a friend that you adore,
is dating a real asshole, somebody who's horrible for them.
I mean, how much does you worrying about it? How
is that going to change anything? It's not How does
(04:37):
spending two hundred hours talking to your friend about this
horrible person over and over and over? How does that
How it doesn't let them.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
The twenty tens had Brene Brown telling us all to
be brave. The Naughties had Tony Robbins walking on hot coals.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I didn't like that.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
That was way too much. Also, I know people who
did it, though, I know people who did this. Ver
cool voice loud.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
The nineties had John Gray with his men are from Mars,
women from Venale.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I know you did.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
I thought that was great.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
This is one divisions in our relationship.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
May is such a basic news from Mars.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I still talk about that a lot that book, and
of course all the decades mostly Oprah. Every era has
its Zeitgey self help guru, and twenty twenty five has
unequivocally crowned mel Robins. Yes of let them fame, more
about let them in a moment. Robin's podcast is currently
the number one in Australia, which we're not at all
bitter about because we're number three. Robins is huge. She's
(05:37):
been doing this for a while, so she has been
a life coach and a motivational speaker for over a
decade and until this massive breakthrough moment, she'd built an
empire from kind of really down home, like kind of
like your grandma would have told you this advice. So
it's quite.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Bossy, Like I've been chusing her for probably more than
five years. And she had a ted talk that went viral.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
About the five second role procrastination.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, and she's got a really great backstory which we'll
get to in a second, a good origin story, and
she's very sort of no nonsense.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So she's like, jump out of bed in the morning
and get outside, don't procrastinate, that's the five second rule.
Think positively all the time. She's like, whether you think
you can, or you think you can't. You're right like
that kind of stuff. A short walk solves most problems,
make everyone else's day a little bit better. So very
like solid white beddy kind of She's.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Not wu Wu.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
She's not wu Wu. She's sold millions of books, She's
had billions of podcast streams. A little tiny bit about
her origin story before we get into the let them phenomena,
because every guru needs one Robins's self reinvention. At forty one,
she was unemployed. She'd gone broke from a failed business
venture that left her and her husband with eight hundred
(06:53):
thousand dollars in debt. She says that she was miserable
and unhappy. She said, my past was full of shitty behavior.
I used to be a real competitive, insecure asshole, and
I hurt people and blah blah blah. Right, Jesse, I
don't know how to tell you this next bit because
you're not gonna like it. Before she was a life
coach and a motivational speaker. She was a criminal lawyer,
and she was on happy and dissatisfied. So she's got
(07:14):
a law degree. She was working as a criminal lawyer.
She went to a life coach to say, what should
I do with my life? I'm unhappy and dissatisfied. The
life coach told her she should be a life coach,
and so she launched, and so it begins, and her
two self help companies and quickly and this reputation as
a tough love personal improvement coach mia. Why is this
(07:38):
Mel Robbins's moment?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I think the news cycle has never been more intense
than it's been sort of this past eighteen months, between
war and Trump and algorithms, and everyone's just feeling very besieged.
And what the let them theory is, and let them
is about recognizing things you can't control. Essentially, it's about
(08:03):
if if someone's not dating you and then not interested,
let them not be interested. If you're partner wants to
end the relationship, let them. If your kid hasn't taken
his lunch to school again, let them be hungry. And
it's that idea of personal empowerment, but in a very
passive way.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So what she's.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Actually doing, I think everyone's so tired. Remember Cheryl Samberg,
who is another bit of a self help guru, that
was all about leaning. That was the girl Boss era,
and that was hustle culture. Mel Robbins and let them
is about lie down.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's about stop.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Trying to change people, stop trying to change things, stop
trying to control every outcome. Just accept what you can't
change about others, like the Serenity prayer, and work on
what you can change and what you can do. And
I think that there's something really appealing about that. It's
also short, it's simple. Her advice is not, as I said,
(09:00):
it's not wu wu. It's not like soul food. It
doesn't require a lot of self reflection. It's very practical.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
In fact, she doesn't really like self reflection much. Jesse,
why do you think we're so addicted to being told
what to do?
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I reckon we all feel woefully unqualified to make any
decisions about our own lives. And I actually don't think
that's entirely new. I was thinking about how my grandmother
would have gone to her priest, and over the weekend
we were at synagogue. Maya was speaking and a rabbi
was on the panel, and I thought I would love
(09:34):
an hour with a rabbi to just really corner her
and got very wise, can you solve them? And this
is still I mean, all over the world there are
lots of religious people who turned to a monk or
an or a a rabbi or a priest to help them,
and I think that Mel Robbins has actually used a
few techniques and language that mirrors this. For example, she
(10:00):
often says I just happened to be the messenger. I
just happened to be the messenger of this, which.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Is very, very Jesus.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And she has this email that she sends out and
she says, in case nobody else tells you today, let
me be the first to say that I love you,
and I believe in you and your ability to create
a better life. Unconditional love is nice, yes, but I
think that the demise of religion has left a wide
open hole.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And we've filled it with celebrities for a little while,
didn't they.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, But I.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Think that there's still this sense of I don't know
what to do. I was reading a few interviews with
people who said, you know, this sounds weird, but I
feel like she has my back. And when I've spoken
to people who are very religious, the thing I'm most
envious of is they say, I feel like someone's watching
out for me, like someone has some greater plan, Like
Mel Robbins will often say the universe has a plan
(10:49):
blah blah blah, and so I think there's an element
of that. But I guess the question I would ask
is that when you have religious people say the priest
answer you, or you go to them with a crisis,
they have a methodology. They have centuries of texts and
conversations and ethics and values that inform their answer. If
(11:12):
you go to a psychologist, they have a methodology which
is research based evidence. My worry about certain gurus is
when you go, what's your methodology other than what sounds
right and what feels right.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
And what's going to go viral and what's.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Going to go viral? How do we know to trust you?
Because where's this information coming from?
Speaker 2 (11:31):
What Mel Robbins is and all of those people that
are listed at the beginning were they're just very good communicators, right,
Because Mel Robbins is obviously smart. She's obviously smart, she's
obviously experienced in this field. But what she's saying, and
she says this herself, like I've been listening to it.
I was listening to her quite a lot the other
day on a long drive, and she'll say herself, this
(11:52):
is all stuff your grandmother would have told you, if
you'd have had the kind of grandmother who tells you
things which in itself tells you something about the way
our families are now. She said, I'm going to tell
you in simple terms, and then I'm going to give
you a trick to remember it. It's not that she's
come up with all these brilliant ideas necessarily, but she's
very good at packaging them, and she's very good at communicating,
and that's the key. The thing that's interesting about it
(12:13):
is that mel Robins and I'm distant criticism of her,
like I find her advice very interesting and helpful lots
of ways. But she doesn't really have you back, guys.
She's just making a lot of money. She's doing not
in a nefarious way. She's selling a product that people
need and want. Because I think me is absolutely spot
on when she's like, our lives feel out of control.
Everything feels out of control. Even the most ordinary life
(12:36):
has a lot of problems in it. We all have
a lot of problems in five. And the thing that
self help, over the decades that it's established itself as
being very mainstream has convinced us off is that we
can solve them. If only we tried harder, if only
we got up earlier, if only we did whatever, then
we can solve them. It's up to us. She's the
same vein as all that, She's just packaged it a
(12:57):
bit differently. It's interesting because she even starts her podcast
by saying, Hi, it's your friend mel here, and it's like,
you know, like I find that a tiny bit. I
think maybe that's also because I'm not American that I
find the tiny bit. I can see through it. You know.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
It's also that therapy speaking, psychobabble and all of that.
It's ubiquitous everywhere at the moment. The rise of that
has not dovetailed with a rise in accessibility. So everyone
thinks they need a therapist, but most people can't afford one.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
So mel Ron know how to go about even getting no.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
So mel Robins can be your therapist for free. On
that on she's trying to sell you something. I do
wonder and I listen to a lot of her advice.
I don't think she is the same as the other
gurus because I look at Brene Brown, who had decades
of expertise and academia and studies and she was saying
something grounded in.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Science, and she is still around, and she's still still.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Around in a way that Mel Robbin's what she's saying
isn't necessarily grounded in science, or at least she doesn't
show us her working out. But she started as a
business coach, and I think that that might be a
clue to what her values.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
That's that you've just made me realize. That's how I
found her. I was starting to look at around when
I was doing ladies startup and I started to look
at some of the women, other women in that space.
This is probably more than five years ago now, and
that's when I found her. It was about business, and
it was about content creation and reaching an audience and
(14:22):
doing all of those things.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
A clue to.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
What data or methodology she's bringing to her advice is
her background? And is her value system capitalism?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Like?
Speaker 4 (14:35):
Is that it because a lot.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Of see everyone's value system isism.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Well, some of us are at least trying to resist.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
But I wonder if not so great because a lot
of her advice is very, very individualistic. It's very if
you help yourself, you'll help others ah, and that it's
not systemic it's not institutional.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's about accountability.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
It's about accountability.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And taking responsibility for yourself.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
One thing I think we've we've probably got to acknowledge
is that a lot of the people who have reported
on her and done features and gone and listened to
her speak is Wow, that's a lot of white women.
I'm not saying that white women don't have problems or
that they're not a legitimate market, but the fact that
there is a sort of homogeneous market for her, I
think says something about what the problems of the white
woman is. And maybe it's that if you can feed
(15:23):
your family and if you feel safe, and if you're
a middle class woman in America, then you worry about X,
Y and Z.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I don't know about that. What do you think You're
not wrong about who her audience is. But I think,
as I was saying before, every life is very complex.
You only have to scratch the tiny surface of seed
that what people are actually going through in terms of
illness and divorce and money struggles and estrangement from family
members and addiction issues like that applies to all of those.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Do you think she appeals Is it as simple as
she's a white woman, so she looks like I think.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
She's very palatable and packageable. She's like, you know, blonde
and attractive. But I just think she's a really good communicator.
I think that she's ading to and I think the
meeting her moment thing I think me nails it about
let them and the uncontrollable moment. But also it's interesting
is she's a political right I've listened to a lot
of interviews with her. She can have a bit of
a snipe about Trump, but she's smart enough to know
(16:20):
that that's a lot of her market. So she's kind
of she's talking to sort of every woman in a way,
like every woman, I'm sure, as you say, this is
definitely a demographic there, but she's not alienating anyone. She's
not making everything political. It's kind of like a mix
of This is quite soothing to listen to, and also
you've end up listening to her and you're like, yes,
(16:41):
I am going to get up at six o'clock. Yes
I am going to talk to myself in the mirror
like somebody who likes themselves and all those things.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So two of her other philosophies in addition to let
them one is the high five trick, and it's every
morning you get up, you brush your teeth, and you
look in the mirror and you give yourself a high five.
Our production team are just high fiving each other now
as we speak. But her point is that we are programmed.
When you give a high five gesture, you are positive,
(17:12):
you are active, you are all of those things, and
by doing that, you can't not be, so it almost
tricks you, no matter how bad you're feeling. The other
one is the five second rule for stopping procrastination, and
that is to literally say to yourself, I'm going to
count down from five to zero, and when I get
to zero, I'm going to do it. Whether it's getting
(17:32):
up out of bed, answering an email, calling someone, you always.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Speak, but going back to the gap that's been left.
And to be clear, when I talk about my my
nan going to the priest, yeah, he was always a man,
and there are so many limitations issues.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
With you go with their own agenda to their own agenda.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And didn't he pretty much The answer was always say
Hail Mary's and you know, go back and look after
your children, Tino of your life.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Well, not necessarily of someone's life, but I'm thinking even
about the rabbi is they have these scriptures in these books,
and underpinning a lot of it was this sense of
community and social cohesion, a lot.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Of what or it's your fault or it's.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Your fault, and let's not forget the homophobia and the
sexism and all that and putting that to the side
for a minute. Mel Robbins, I mean, high fiving the
mirror isn't going to change the world.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
But it's not trying to. That's what self help is.
Self help isn't about helping other people. And I think
that's another reason why she's met the moment. I think
that two things. For the last few years, we've seen
a real rise in victim culture where whoever's got the
biggest hardship wins, and there's a real sense of your
(18:41):
wounds are your evidence or is the greatest most important
part of you? Your wounds bring status, your disadvantages bring status.
She's very much the opposite of that. She's very much
like there's nothing to be said for walloweing there's strength
in making change, and you can't change systemic inequality, you
(19:03):
can't change the economy.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
I think that that's a paladin.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
As an individual You can't. But what you can do
is get out of bed in the morning, high five yourself,
and feel better. And we know that the key to
making any positive change, whether it's outside your life or
inside your life, is feeling good. If you feel miserable
and your self esteem is low and you're procrastinating, you're
of no good to anyone.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
True.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
But I think that there's a difference between Brene Brown, right,
it was all about vulnerability and connection. Interestingly is Mel
Robins because in saying let them, there's a bit of
siloing there, which is sort of like I'm going to
do my thing. And I listened to a bunch of
Mel Robins in preparation for this, and I like her.
I'm not trying to I've just got some questions about
(19:51):
what she says. She uses the word winning a lot,
and like you are going to be the winner and
the past you would have been a loser and all
that kind of stuff. And I'm just a little bit
allergic to the individualism of her.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
But that's your self help.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Is I understand exactly what you mean, though, Jesse, Because
although I'm a big believer that a short walk solves
every problem, and getting out of bed blah blah. But
it is true that it's not going to solve all
the problems in the world. To pull yourself up by
your bootstraps, just toughen up and get on with it.
Really isn't helpful in lots of situations, but it is
helpful in some small situations. And I think that me
(20:31):
is right that what we're talking about here, and what
Mel Robbins is addressing, is what can you control what's
in your circle influence. I don't think that means you
shouldn't be thinking about inequality, and I don't think that
means she shouldn't be thinking about how do I make
a difference to the world. I think that that's a
very important thing to be thinking about. But in terms
of you and your world, that's where Mel Robins has
some answers for you. Whether or not she's about connection,
(20:52):
she does talk about it. She does talk about I've
listened to some of the podcasts where she's like, obviously
it's great to be rich and successful and all those things,
but she's like, but do you want to be standing
on the top of the mountain alone? Really, we're all
about our people around us. Really, those messages are all
quite similar in the end, how loud is in a moment,
something to read, something to wear, and something to listen to.
Speaker 6 (21:12):
It's our recommendations, vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
It's right.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So we're going to help set up your weekend with
our best recommendations. Holly, what am I doing?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Okay? So I just finished listening to a beautiful book.
You know how people often say, how do you guys
read and listen to and watch things. I've hacked away
to read two books at once. I listened to one
and I read another. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I've
been listening to a book that isn't new, but it's
sort of back in the zeitgeist because later this year
a movies coming out of this book that stars Jillian Anderson,
(21:57):
who's obviously a goddess of great status, and it's called
The Salt Path and it's British book and it's by
this woman called rain and Win, so she narrates it.
And the reason that I was listening to it is
somebody recommended it to me who I interviewed on mid
and it's about this woman. It's kind of think of
like Wild where Cheryl Strayed went off and walked that
big track on her own to find herself and cure
(22:17):
herself with alcoholism. This is about this English couple who
lose everything. They've got grown up kids who are going
after university. They're like comfy middle class people. Actually, mel
Robins would have a lot to say to these people.
They live a comfy middle class life. They've been living
on this beautiful farm in Wales for like twenty years
and they've restored it and it's their world, and they
lose it all in a scam. They literally are penniless
(22:38):
and they're at this point in the life going what
are we going to do? They decide that rather than
take a council house, which they do and will end
up doing eventually, I'm sure, but they go on a
long walk and they basically become homeless. But instead of
being homeless in the city and in the system, they
just put backpacks on and walk.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's a memoir. It's true. It's one hundred
percent true.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Like proper Grainer and the other.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Thing that happens just before they do this, So they
lose everything they've ever owned, and then moth he's the
husband gets diagnosed with an incurable degenerative disease, so everything's
gone to shit. They're fifty and they're like, what do
we do? And their kids obviously think they're crazy. They're
grown up kids. They put their backpacks on and they
walk on this really long walk. Now, the book is
(23:20):
really interesting because it makes you think about lots of things.
It sounds a bit like a classic like spiritual finding
yourself story, and it kind of is great. But because
they're literally broke while they're doing this, they can't eat.
They get something like thirty pounds a fortnight put in
their bank account by like the pension or something, so
they're hanging out for that. So they're like trying to
(23:42):
find ways to literally survive. They can only comp places
that are free. They do lots of frankly quite irresponsible,
like verging on illegal things. He's got this terrible illness.
He's getting worse. Like it's such an amazing book that
listening to it. The woman Rayna Winn who wrote it
so won lots of awards. It became a really big book.
It came out in twenty eighteen, but this year it's
a movie and Rayna Winn narrates it. She's got this
(24:06):
beautiful English accent with a slight kind of range voice,
and it's just such an interesting story and I loved it.
It's that right makes of like it's soothing, but it's
also like, oh, what are you doing, you idiots, and
like how could you do that? And lots things about
what it means to be homeless, blah blah blah. It's
called The Saltpath by Rayna When and I loved it.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Maya, I'm going to recommend a hat maybe that you
could wear while you're going on a long walk. Avenue
Hats are an Australian lady startup, a small business female
founders focused on sustainable designs. I love hats. I've got
a lot of caps and I like also straw ish hats.
(24:46):
I don't know what these are made out of, but
they're a bit like RAFFI A, yeah, that soft. But
what I love about them this is the kicker. You
can just scrunch them up and put them in your bag,
in your suitcase, in your bag. And they sent me
a couple and when I looked at them, one of
them is like kind of like a straw color. Two
of them are, and then one of them is like
navy and cream stripes, and I thought, oh no, I
(25:09):
wouldn't wear that, and then I put it on and
I bloody loved it. Super comfy and just gives you
very good coverage because sometimes when you're a cap, it's
just that little bit at the front and that all
the sun gets in on the sites.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I have had so many outlouders message me about getting
a skincats check after I talked about it recently and said,
BCCs around the forehead. And when I went back for
my check up, he looked at my part because I
part my hair the same all the time, and he said,
that's where you've got to be careful of. I can
see it's pink. Like every time you're going outside. It
isn't enough to do sunscreen. You have to have something
(25:42):
on you.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
When you think about it, it's true. So you've got
to a hat because you can't really put sunscreen on
your scalp maybe yesh exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
And the hat that you're going to wear that you
can scrunch up in your backpack or your bag or
whatever is the one that, like you should have, so
that's very smart.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
So they're super great. They're around one hundred and twenty dollars.
They're not cheap, but they're very sustainable and you will
have this forever. They're fantastic.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
I have a book recommendation as well, is called Better
Days by claares On.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
And I get asked to endorse a lot of books,
and most of them I do not endorse.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
I keep hearing about this book oh so good.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
So I was given it and I actually read it
on the weekend. I was away, like close to Berry
and just read it on this weekend. Absolutely went through
it so fast. And it's set in Sydney. It's about
motherhood and ambition and marriage and this relationship she had
in her twenties that ended, but sort of it's unresolved.
(26:37):
You know when you read a book and you fall
in love with a writer, like you fall in love
with their tone and their voice. It was that, and
it happened from the first page.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
It was so warm.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I haven't heard a bad word about this book. It
felt at first like a smallish story about a really
believable life. She has kids in this big job and
it's about creativity. But it just went to the most
interesting places and it had me so so engrossed. So
it's called Better Days. It's only come out I think
like Last Week or something by Klaerzon and Australian writer.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
You'll love it. We'll put links in the show notes
to all ofs and also thank you to whichever one
of you recommended the wedding People. That was me, I
just finished. I don't think it was me. I just
finished that. I really love that too. Who she got
any other books?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I think she might. I think she might.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I really loved her style.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yeah yeah, after the break, a fight with technology, a
night of entertainment, and a depleted social battery. It is
our Best and Worst.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
at the show notes to get us in your ears
five days a week. And a huge thank you to
all our current subscribers.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
It's time for Best and Worst.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
This is a part of the show where we share
a little bit more from our week from our personal lives. Holly,
what was your worst?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
So my best and my worst are both technolo related.
My worst is the ever ongoing battle with technology and
our offspring, which every parent knows about. But also I
hid a new low this week, which was, look, I'm
one of those people. I've read the Jonathan Heights. I know.
I know that the world is being ruined and my
children are being ruined by technology. I know that. But
(28:29):
still on the weekend, did I allow my son to
purchase very expensive virtual reality headset that will guarantee that
he no longer lives in my house? It just lives
now in some kind of other world with avatars and
people with heads of animals. Yes, I absolutely did, because
one of the things about technology is that I fired
(28:50):
it all the time. And my teenage boys. We all
know it's a stereotype, but it's kind of true. In
my house. Girls tend to be more into social media
and media, and boys tend to be more into gaming.
And Billy has always been quite into gaming. He has
wanted one of those virtual headset things for about four years,
and I've always said no. Little bugger just started saving
up his money, saving up his money. He put a
(29:13):
chart in his room of like how far away he
was from the dream then, and he was like chipping
away and chipping away, and then You're like, how do
I not reward this? And then he's like, you can
put any rules you want around it. You can do anything,
and you've got all the voices of all of the
collective wisdom of the village going, don't do it, don't
do it. And then we did it anyway.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So I he's smart, and I think that's great parents
because he learned about saving well he did.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
But when I now walk into the house and he's
so weird to have somebody in your house with this
weird so I know, I can imagine the emails I'm
going to get with the big light thing on, and
he's just like waving his hands in the air like
it's just weird. I don't like it.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
His husband got some of those and was wearing them
in bed, not in a sexual way, but just in
a weird like, you know, and she would send photos
of me to me of just like him next to
her in bed, and I'm like, dude, do you never
want to have sex again?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Is that your They're so weird anyway. But my best
is also technology because I've been you remember we had
that conversation about AI the other week. I've been using
AI to do my kids homework, and so my kids, Matilda,
particularly now that she's fifteen, her homework is hard. And
I was never very good at school, like well, I
(30:29):
was always really good at English, and I was good
at things like history, but math science absolutely forget it.
So I can't do anything that she's doing. So my
new best friend is to use the AI.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Why isn't she doing it herself?
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Well, no, she is doing it herself. But in order
to get her to do it, she's like, help me,
help me, And I'm like, I can't help you. But
what I can do is I can sit there with
my AI assistant and so tells me how to help her.
It tells you how to explain. I don't get the
AI to do it, got it right, like, because that
would be bad parenting even for me. What I do
(31:05):
is I ask my AI assistant if you were trying
to work out out what fraction of this thing was
this things, how would you go about doing it? And
the AI assistant gives you like really simple kind of
like well, first of all, you've got to work out
the BLA and tells me that so then I can
talk through it. So I'm not giving her the answer,
but it's basically like me having a tutor to help tudor.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
I had to do something for work recently where I
was trying to work out what percentage increase was this
number on this number to say, I don't even give
me a calculator.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
I don't know how to work it out.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, So I went to my chatbot and I was like,
what's the percentage increase? And then it did all It
was being a bit braggy like it was doing all
the fraction stuff, and I was like, I don't.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Need to see work to see that simple. I just
needed to.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Get whereas I needed to see the working out. And
it's made me a more because before I discovered that
this was an impression of me, Well, I don't know
what do you mean? And then I get cranky, I
jump up.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Then she goes, I just need some help.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I thought you wanted me to do my homework blah
blah blah blah blah, ai' making the world better.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I also feel like homeworks hard than it used to be.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
I was a tutor for a long time and would
be shootering a kid who was, you know, in year
five or year six English or something, and he'd go, oh,
I have a maths question and I was like, I
don't know how to do your two maths like divisions
was like harkeed, and I.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Just went, I'm I'm panicking. I'm panicking, may or what's
your worst?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
My worst is the depletion of my social battery. Like
you know how often with your devices they lose battery
over time, they get worse and worse at recharging. I
feel like that's me. I did an interview on No
Filter a couple of years ago about the seven different
types of rest and how you can feel really tired,
but it has nothing to do with sleep. Might be
(32:50):
that you're depleted in another area of rest that you need.
It might be around mental rest, emotional rest, and social
rest was one that I'd never heard of, but that
really spoke to me. And I've noticed that I need
more and more time on my own. So I used
to think of myself as an extrovert, and the way
that apparently distinguished between extroverts and introvert is that extroverts
(33:11):
are recharged by being with people broadly, and introverts are
recharged by being with themselves. And I'm finding that I'm
moving from extrovert to introvert and that I need more
and more time on my own, and I'm finding that
harder and harder to get because I love my friends.
I really want to see my friends. Work for us
(33:32):
is very social innately because we work with our friends
and we work, you know, I also work with my family,
and I work with lots of great women. Then we
have great chats all through the day. But I'm just
getting more and more tired.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
And I wonder if you've been thrust into like early
parenthood again because you find Luna very cut feeling. But
you spend a lot of time with Luna, and I
wonder if a lot of the time that you were
spending on your own recharging is now spent with a
you know, nearly two year olds.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
That's really interesting. I find that being with Luna is
spiritual rest for me because it comes from a different
cup than my social battery, or a different battery than
my social battery. Like sometimes I might want to be
on my own, but that's kind of different. She fills
me up in a different way. I think there's probably
some truth in that, though, because a lot of my
time on my own is now with her, which I
(34:19):
bloody love.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
When you're on your own. Just one more questions on
this matter. When you're on your own, are you socializing
though on your phone? So you're not actually resting, that's socializing.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Maybe that's part of it because my group chats are
always cracking on, and I crack on as well on
the group chat, so maybe that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
You're not really.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
No, I agree with you. It's not proper social dreamy rest.
I love that. Okay, I'll think about that. And my
best is, as you said, Jesse, I did a panel
for International Women's Day and met a whole lot about
louders afterwards, and what was so interesting was how many
of them said, you guys got me through COVID, you
(35:02):
guys got me through lockdown, and I'd sort of forgotten
about not forgotten about it, but there are so many
out louders who discovered us during that time. And we
made the decision. I don't know how or why. I
think it was just instinctive that we increase the number
of episodes that we did during COVID.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
I remember Holly suggesting it.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I was initially against it, and then it was only
going to be a COVID thing because we went you know,
and then it's stuck and we don't remember.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
How crazy that was. We all, I mean, everyone's got
their stories about that, but we all had to learn
how to record ourselves from home. The entire business did,
of course, and we never done it, and we weren't
allowed to be together to learn, and then for months
we never saw each other. You two did, but we
weren't in the same.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Which was its own challenge.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
It was so wild, I mean. And anyway, so that
connection that we had with the out louders was very
genuine fust too, right, like it was exactly so.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I feel like a lot of us bonded during that time.
And there have been so many new outluders join the community,
which has just been wonderful. And it just, you know,
a lot of what we do is behind a microphone
and we don't get to see our audience. We sense them,
but it was just lovely to meet a lot of
them in person.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
My worst is that I have I've been getting these
tension headaches all last week and I didn't know what
it was. I kept being like, oh, should I go
to the doctor about this? And then over the weekend
it was coming on at the same time every day
and it happened during an interview I was doing. It
happened I was doing a television thing and I go, oh,
because it makes me really irritable, like because I can't concentrate.
(36:28):
And then I was sitting there over the weekend, I
touched my head and it was like I could feel it,
like I could feel exactly where it was. And I
ended up going and getting a massage, which was like
the best massage ever, and I said, I've got these
tension headaches.
Speaker 4 (36:40):
And she did neck and.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Shoulders and head and everything and it was like a
spot where it was like clicking on my forehead.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
So it wasn't sinuses because sometimes I can know tension shoulders.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, I get the same thing, especially if I've been
riding a lot, driving a lot, stressing a lot, and
then the headaches come and then you're stressed about the
headache and then you send yourself to self headed in
spiral massuses. Oh.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
It was so it was so good because I just went,
I've been taking neuropyin every day. This this can't be good.
So yes actually made a big difference. My best was
MJ the.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Musical I know controversial.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
I'm just gonna be honest.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
I got a media invite which now extends to Simon,
my cousin who has disability, loves these musicals. Yeah, and
when I saw that it was Michael Jackson, I was like,
he's he is going to love it because he loves
Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I'm not fantastic music.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I'm not gonna rull Michael Jackson for him.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Do you love Michael Jackson like the music? I'm talking,
we're talking strict the music. Were you like, oh, yeah,
that'll be a banger.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
I remember, like I grew up listening to Michael Jackson
music and really enjoying it, and there is so much
that it's like, we don't play his music as much
anymore for very very good reason. But when I saw it,
I went, Okay, Simon's gonna love it, so I rsvapid.
We went here are some facts about the musical.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Right, are you worried about getting canceled?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
No? I didn't cry. I saw a lot of people
posting about MJ the musical, and I was a tiny
bit surprised because I was like, I thought we weren't
doing Michael Jackson anymore.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, Well, someone said to me media personality, we were
having a chat as we left, and she said.
Speaker 4 (38:11):
The merch stand is a little quiet, isn't it good?
I was like, yeah, yeah, probably people.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Who didn't go because they felt uncomfortable. As much as
you can love the music, they felt uncomfortable about I
assume that all the allegations were not covered in the musical.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
No, and I've got some insights about that. But the
actual musical nominated for ten Tony Awards, one of the
highest grossing musical theater productions of all time, and it
has become one of the highest rating Broadway shows by
the audience ever.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Can I ask a question, yes, how old is it
the musical?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Then?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Has it been around for ten years?
Speaker 4 (38:43):
It was just around like twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
And then it's all Helps Jackson.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yes, But interestingly so it's set in nineteen ninety two
during the Dangerous tour, and this is when his appearance.
Knows job that was all the controversy, his relationship with.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
His dad, So it's about him, yes, but it's.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
A moment in time where it goes he's preparing for
this tour and I went, I wonder if they're going
to deal with it, And there's one line that kind
of says separate art from artist, which you know it's
really yeah, but I looked into it. In the first
allegation against Michael Jackson was early nineteen ninety three, so
I think they've specifically chosen this moment to go. He
(39:23):
meant something different in nineteen ninety two, did well remember
the wacko Jacko stuff? It was all that anyway. The
cast is incredibly diverse. The person who plays Michael Jackson
is Roman Banks, who is one of the best stars
I've ever seen on stage, best dancing I've ever seen
a musical.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Would be a tough gig. Playing Michael Jackson in the music.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
The voice, the dancing, the moonwalk, the robot that like
all of that. It was like watching an extended Michael
Jackson film clip. There were two standing ovations before interval.
I think, was it just the music from that period
or was it all No, it went back to like
Jackson five. There was a little like a little Michael
Jackson and do.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
They do the thriller dance?
Speaker 4 (40:01):
They did?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Oh, that's the main thing. I mean they did. I
learned that at school at high school.
Speaker 3 (40:05):
It was interesting because Michael Jackson at that point, the
relationship with his dad was really interesting, the motown, the
Quincy Jones, the significance of him being a black man,
the changing color of his skin. He'd been burned, like
actually burned, and that's why he had this he started
taking the painkillers. It didn't explicitly acknowledge the horrendous allegations
(40:29):
against him, which have to always be part of his story.
But I don't think any of us have the answer
about how you separate art from an artist, how you
go to really challenge This is a complicated story. And
later this year a movie called Michael is coming out
where his nephew plays him. This conversation about Michael Jackson
(40:50):
is coming up again in twenty twenty five. I think
it's going to be a really, really big one. I
know that his alleged victims have come out and spoken
just in the last few weeks.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
But part of me was like, I feel like I'm here.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Supporting a diverse, talented cast have been going to musical
theater for a long time, But.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
You're also also supporting the state, which is but the estate.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
Children brothers, Yeah, who, Like I don't have.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Any thing you shouldn't have gone. I just think it's complicated.
It is complicated. It absolutely is.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I agree, because who doesn't like Michael jacks music. But
the thing is is it's that thing of separating the
art from the artist. Is one thing you can listen
to Michael Jackson in your house. Does it need to
have a movie and a musical and all these things
alongside these terrible allegations?
Speaker 1 (41:35):
What do you do though?
Speaker 3 (41:35):
When he was unequivocally like one of the biggest artists
to ever exist, like.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Can you move away?
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I don't think his state wants to quietly move away?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
No, no, exactly right. Anyway, it was fascinating and it
was a great musical, and I did think I was
sitting there going this is really complicated for the alleged victims.
So it's definitely complicated, but far out it's a great musical.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Is that, my friends, is all we have time for.
On our Friday show, we're done for the week. We
hope you've had a good one with us. We hope
if you're in certain parts of the country you're drying out.
And thank you so much for being here with us
all week. Mia and Jesse take us home.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
A big thank you to our team. Group Executive producer
Ruth Devine.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Executive producer Emiline Gazillis, our audio producer is Leah Porgies, our.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Video producer is Josh Green, and our junior content producers
are Coco and Tessa. Goodbye.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
If you are looking for something else to listen to,
yesterday's subscriber episode was all about the last two.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Episodes of The White Lotus.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
We talked about that full frontal that we weren't expecting,
a bit of a shot jump skip. Also, we cannot
stop thinking about those three women, the dynamic between them
being sent to some very funny resorts.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
That was a scary sound in the background. Well, Linda
is hearing some scary sounds in her room, and I
was just mimicking that.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
We had so much fun just basically putting all our theories.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Out there for frontal.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Flask was yeah, exactly right, all the easter eggs. So
have a listen to that if you're into The White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Lincoln's show notes, shout out to any Mom and me
a subscribers listening. If you love the show and want
to support us as well, subscribing to Mom and Miya
is the very best way to do so. There is
a link in the episode description,
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