Micropettiness & A Generation Of Try-Hards

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
You know how we are preparing for our live show
in May. Yes, we are, okay, And I try and
get out of certain parts of it that I don't enjoy,
which has for some reason gone from zero to one
hundred very very fast.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
The rehearsals and the lyrics and the measurement.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yeah, And I've been trying to tell you that I
don't like to dance. Wasn't on my job application when
I came here. I shouldn't have to. Anyway, They've got
this new thing on Ancestry DNA where they have your traits.
They have like forty traits, right, so think like morning
on night person, do you require a lot of caffeine?
Do mosquito mosquitos buy you all that stuff because.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Mosquitoes don't bite her bite out of me?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah. Not only does it tell you what your traits are,
but what parent you got them from?

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
This is how amazing it is. Anyway, I was going
through and apparently I do not possis s the DNA
to learn choreography. It said there's a there's.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Actually a spit in a stick to find that out.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
I feel like this is mine. You know how you
use your adhd as a get our jail? This is mine, Mia.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
I feel a sick note coming on from Jesse Stephens.
My doctor precludes me from having anticipates it.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Said, I can't learn choreography. Totally different, DNA marker. I
don't like dancing, yeah, said it said, you don't like dancing?

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Dancing? What about when you're drunk?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeh, when I've had a few drinks actually dancing. But
I don't want to dance right now?

Speaker 4 (01:42):
Did you?

Speaker 1 (01:42):
She did? I saw her doing that. Hello and welcome
to Mama Mia out loud and to our Friday show
where we take a break from the news cycle because
holy hell is scary out there. Deep breaths, because today
it's Friday, it's the thirty first of January, and we
are talking about other stuff. I am Holly wayIn right,

(02:04):
I'm mea.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
And on today's show, there's a new item of clothing
that the finger wagging trendsetters of gen Z have assigned
just TikTok's sartorial binfire and we think we know why. Also,
a viral essay has reignited a debate about whether there's
any such thing as an a for effort recommendations which
include a meal to eat while you're wearing your weighted vest,

(02:27):
a movie that you'll sop through on a TV show
about bitches, and our very best and worst of the week.
But first, Mia Friedman, we're.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
Big fans of pettiness here on Mama Mer out loud
or maybe that's just me, but no, I think Jesse,
you're very petty.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
You like some pettiness?

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, I do like a little bit of pettiness.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
I think it's an underrated personality trait. Personally, does being
petty make you the bigger person? No, it makes you
the smaller one, and sometimes that's okay. I'm excited to
report that we've discovered a new form of petty behavior
that's even more petty than the regular kind. It's more subtle,
it's smaller, and it's easy to miss, but it can
still be deeply satisfying.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
In case you missed.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
It, we learned about it via a viral tweet this
week from a woman called bex Luthor, who wrote, there's
someone in our team who behaves horribly to me, and
whenever I have to type his name, I've taken to
using a slightly smaller font.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Size than for everyone else's. I love that. I love it.
Micro pettiness is pettiness via.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Stealth, Yes, And what I love about it is that
it is a level of petty that makes the other
person feel crazy. Because if I said to you, guys
really weird. But every time Mia sends me an email,
I swear she puts my name a little bit smaller,
people would ye paranoid. Yeah, it would make you question
your grasp on reality. But that means the person's really

(03:48):
getting to you. And I love that.

Speaker 3 (03:50):
We have asked out loud as if they do any
acts of micro pettiness, maybe in the workplace or in
their life generally, Jesse, you've got one.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
One out Louder said that when someone in her family
is really pissing her off, she'll go and sit in
their usual seat, Like, say, there's a head of the
table that someone normally sits in, so it puts everyone
a little off. Kiltop sag.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah. One of the outlauders said, I tell my best
friend if her boyfriend is being mean to her she
should just take small things from his house, nothing important,
just inconvenient, like the base of his phone charge and
leave the cord. Just take the plug, one of the
stove dials, only one, the little spitty thing under the
plate in the microwave, so it won't yes one shoe,

(04:33):
but leave the other. That's great, that falls into the hole. Like,
am I going crazy? Yeah? I love that.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
I've got some examples from out louders of admin pettiness.
One person says, I'll stop using exclamation marks when I
talk to this person over email or slack.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
It makes me feel like I'm being Yeah, that is
my peak. Rude is when you get proper punctuality.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah. Someone else said that people often get her name
wrong in emails, so she does the same back, calling
them by their last name or spell their name wrong.
Instead of signing off every email with many thanks, they
just sign off their email with thanks.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
I realize that I have been guilty of micro pettiness
in the last twenty four hours. I do this often,
which is when I get up in the middle of
the night with our baby, which has been happening a
bit lately. I will send my husband a text message
about something that's not very ard. But yesterday I did
it at four fifteen. I went, we need milk, and

(05:31):
I just it's like a marker of just going I'm awake.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Just so you know, just so you know. Do you
know what I used to do?

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Every time I was annoyed with my husband, I'd take
off my wedding ring.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
That's not my friend, just petty.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
He never noticed. I wish I was more of an
evil genius. Maybe I'm going to try and develop that. Yeah,
I'm not genius enough.

Speaker 5 (05:53):
Hi, I'm married, David. I want to tell you about
a new store I'm opening called lat Larry. Why am
I getting into the coffee game? Because I went to
this coffee shop next door and the guy was such
a jerk that I felt like I had to do something.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
You know what.

Speaker 5 (06:10):
I got me a little Spots store.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
As the fashion correspondent on this show, I've come across
some urgent news. I read an article this week on
Muma Maya that told me, in no uncertain terms, that
I a millennial. Must bury yet another of my beloved staples.
There was the eyeliner. I remember they came from my eyeliner.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Oh your winged eyeliner.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yep. Then they came from my skinny jeans. They came
for my socks. Now I've got a bide part yep,
visible socks, yeah, yep, yep, yep. And now I've got
to wear the long ones. Now apparently we are doing
bags wrong. So Nicola Dolf, who's the head of style
at the Iconic, has declared the cross body bag done. Interestingly,

(06:53):
you know who I see wear a cross body bag
more than anyone else is this lady who thinks she's
a fashion icon over.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Here, although she wears like a cross phone strap thing
a lot.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
I wear everything cross and it's for reasons of feminism
and also disorganization, because I tend to lose things.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yes, right, keeps your hands free.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Gen Z's in the office were asked how they felt
about the cross body bag and if they were surprised
by this news item, and here's what they said. Cross
body bags are very millennial coded. Gen Z's are all
about under the shoulder bag, big or small. Another said,
it's not so much that the cross body bag is bad,
it's more so you can spot a millennial out in

(07:34):
the crowd with it. It's a millennial identifier.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
See gen x is are stoked because if someone thinks
we're a millennial, that's a compliment. Thrilled. People who get
really upset about these pronouncements from Gen Zed are millennials. Yes,
how are you feeling? You don't wear a lot of
cross body bags. You still wear like a backpack like
Dora the Explorer.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I was going to ask, how are we feeling about backpacks?
They're in, They're still in, right, justipractice videos love a backpack.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, when you need to grab something, No, I do
struggle with that because you have to take it off,
put it down, pick it up, put it back on again.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
The reason I also like cross body bags, apart from
having your hands free, is that it also can give
a bit of color. It's like something going across your body.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
I thought, if you.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Are a big busted woman, then the cross body bag
has never worked.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
It's like a seat belt. It's just it doesn't It
just sits between, it kind of emphasizes.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Sometimes.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
See, sometimes I find that it cuts because I am
now a big bustard woman. Sometimes I find that it cuts.
If I feel like I've got pillow bust, it cuts
it in half. Dagally, I actually think it can be
quite complimentary. I have a theory about why jen z
are so obsessed with telling you millennials, millennials that you're old.
And the difference between now and say, when we were

(08:57):
in our teens or twenties, is that now pretty much
everybody dresses the same. Like there are three generations of
my family women who shop at Uniclo, my mother, me,
my daughter. We're all buy the same kinds of items.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Your mother and I wear the same shoes, tevas, Yes,
we love a Tevah do love a teva?

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (09:19):
My father and my son were the same kind of runners,
so that was very different. Like if I think about
my grandmother growing up and my grandfather, they didn't even
wear jeans.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
So over the last couple of.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
Generations, there's been this blurring of you know, everyone chops
at cotton On, everybody shops at Zara, whether it's a
small label, I'm using those because there are labels that
everybody's heard of. It's become very democratized. Why do you
think that is because we don't want to look old.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
I think there's greater existential angst about getting old than
ever before.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Yeah, And I think you've got four generations who are
essentially the broad constructs of it addressing the same. Like
they could be wearing sambas, they could be wearing jeans,
and they could be wearing a graphic T shirt right,
and they might wear it all in their own way,
but they could all be wearing essentially the same. So
what gen z's have to do because they don't want
to look like their parents or their grandparents or their
older millennial siblings, they have to pick on very small

(10:14):
subtle aspects of it, specific aspects, and you know, demonize
those and.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Say they're the coders.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
So it's the socks, it's the bags. It's not like genes,
it's the type of gen do.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
You think, Because I'm not convinced when I think about
growing up or whatever, we've always laid shit on people
older than us. That's not entirely new. Like I have
been giving my mum shit about what she wears since
I could speak. I wonder if the difference is that
we used to bitch in private and now we bitch

(10:48):
on TikTok, Like is it that now we're just so
open about Oh this makes you look cold, this makes
you look cold?

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well? You also now you get to watch the reaction. See,
millennials are in this very particular moment of realizing they're
not the young ones anymore, and that's a very painful
space to be because you go through in this relatively
short time, oh I'm the young one at work to like,
oh I'm not more, and it's jarring and you're trying
to figure it out. And now when people mock your

(11:15):
side part or your skinny jeans, because I think me
is right, it's all about the micro although let me
tell you me. If I walked in here dressed in
the clothes that my fifteen year old daughter was, oh.

Speaker 4 (11:25):
My god, you people would throw me out onto the street,
like giant white leg jeans.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
And teeny tiny crop tops. My god, can you imagine.
But anyway, that aside the little markers of it, they
see how upset you get. People get furious about this.
What do you mean I can't wear my skinny jeans?
What do you mean my socks aren't cool? And they
get so upset. And that's fun for the young people
to see the old people getting upset about stuff, Whereas

(11:50):
you used to not see it so much, but now
it's like hilarious watching us get upset about sock.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
I think the problem is we're just too cool. Like
mothers and daughters go and get tattoos together.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
That's what I did. It's this is what everyone's doing.
It's not darling.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
There's a lot of people, like young people have always
wanted to separate themselves from older people.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
We've never resisted aging more.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
And also old things have become cool, like you know,
older people can wear sexy things and wear crop tops
if they want to, although I will judge them for it.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
And younger people want.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
To wear daggy old man shoes or old woman shoes
like you do.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
And so it's like norm core. It's all blurred.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
In the article on Mum and May, out Fran said,
gen Z haven't lived through enough to understand all the
benefits of a cross body bag. And I think that
that's very true. It's like maybe we just have the wisdom.
We have the wisdom of knowing that certain trends.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Also, gen Z, you don't have any responsibility.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
No, you just can said I don't use a bag.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
You can just.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
Punching bag under your arm because you never have to
lift your arm if you don't want to.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yes, And because they don't have to put their phone
in their bag because they've never put their phone down.
It's just attached to their point.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
We've got a funny ven diagram in our house because
you know, my daughter, her girlfriend, my son, who's sixteen.
My daughter's girlfriend has this ven diagreen where she's in
the middle. She shares clothes with me, she shares clothes
with Coco, she shares clothes with Remy, And even though Coco,
Remy and I don't dress at all the same, we all.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Share clothes with Jack.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
She's a hybrid.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, you tried really really hard, you worked super duper hard.
You didn't succeed, In fact, you failed. Should you be
commended for effort over result? This is a familiar debate
kicked off again by an essay by Adam Grant, who's
one of the most prestigious and popular organizational psychologists of

(13:52):
our time. We love organizational psychologists, don't we, because they
know things, but they also make us more productive. He's
the loveliest guy just to name dropped us quickly. Everyone
loves that.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
I interviewed him for No Filter a few years ago,
and he's amazing. He also co wrote Cheryl Sandberg's book
that we love, Option B about dealing with grief. He's
like the cool internet psychologist.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
And he also teaches university at the prestigious Warden School
in the US, and he wrote an essay called No,
you Don't get an A for effort at the end
of last year about how he's noticed that his students
are now frequently presenting him with their marks and complaining
that they should have been higher because they tried really hard.
He wrote, recently, at the end of a week long

(14:37):
course with the light workload, multiple students had a new complaint.
My grade doesn't reflect the effort I put into this course.
High marks are for excellence, he writes, not grit. In
the past, students understood that hard work was not sufficient
and a required great work. And yet today many students
expect to be rewarded for the quantity of their effort

(14:59):
rather than the quality of their knowledge. Now, he goes
on to explain that this isn't their fault. The young
people I guess who are coming to him and talking
about this. He says, we've had a shift that was
made in educational work ago, which ended up entering the
psyche of the mainstream that acknowledged that rewarding effort cultivates
a strong work ethic in people and often reinforces learning.

(15:19):
So it's a good thing to enforce that effort is
a really good thing. It makes people want to work hard.
But he argues that we might have taken it too far,
not just at school or at UNI or on whatever
course we might be taking, but in the workplace and
even in relationships. Jesse, are you an a for effort person?

Speaker 2 (15:36):
This made me really think because the respect we have
for effort I broadly agree with. I don't think this
is the same as like a participation ribbon, giving everyone
a participation ribbon. It's different because this is saying it's
about growth, mindset and understanding that it's not fixed. It's
not you're smart, you're not. You're good at netball, you're not.

(15:59):
It's saying, if you try, it's something you'll get better,
which is true. I love that, and I think that
is how we should teach kids.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
Now. That's encouraging, Yeah, exactly, kind of demoralize.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yes, it's not rewarding you just for showing up. It's
rewarding you for showing up and they're putting in.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, and if you had to decide if you're hiring
someone for a job, I reckon you would go the
hard worker over the person with natural ability any day.
So conscientiousness in terms of like the beat five, I
think the big five personality traits that you look at
like there's openness, as neuroticism or that conscientiousness, those people
that work hard. And I remember this from school. There

(16:36):
were people that worked hard, and then there were people
that didn't even study and would get really really good marks. Right,
I can look at it and see who's more successful,
and it was the people who put their head down
and developed that work ethic succeeded. And I think that
grit and resilience are really important qualities, and you generally
get better at things when you have a good work ethic.

(16:57):
In saying that, what this made me think about was
how you can work really hard ineffectively. So there have
been periods of my life where I know I've done this.
In fact, the university exam really resonated. I turned up
to university, I worked harder than I've ever worked, and
I got about sixty in my essays. I just wasn't
doing the work effectively. I was applying this other strategy

(17:21):
that I'd always used to this new thing and failing
at it and.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
The day I hadn't been in meta yet. You couldn't cheat.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Putting your hand up and going. But I tried really
hard on that isn't the point, and that's it's.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
An honorable So are you saying it's an honorable character trait?
But it doesn't necessarily assure you anything.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, and more honorable, which is what Adam Grant says,
is to put your hand up and go to your
lecture or whatever. I tried really hard in this. What
am I missing?

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Like?

Speaker 2 (17:50):
What can I do that's better? And it reminded me
of do you remember this story? Blew my mind. At
the Olympics, Cam McAvoy the fifty meter Australian gold medalist swimmer. Right,
he was a first Australian man ever to win the
fifty meter freestyle. I think it was his late thirties, right,
like he was older than most.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
Happened at the last one.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, this is the last Olympics and he had been
training for years, couldn't win it. At the beginning of
his career, he would do seventy kilometers a week swimming
when he trained for this Olympics, he did three kilometers
a week and he just went, I'm going to change
how I do it, and I'm going to train in
a twenty five meter pool. And he won the gold medal.
And I think you know how they say insanity. The
definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting

(18:30):
different results. It's like sometimes sitting down and this is
what Adam Grant's all about, and going and putting in
all this effort. It's not paying off, then your effort
is misguided. It's misdirected. There must be a better way
to do it, right.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, I think you can see how it's happened because
it did start out in parenting. It's funny that when
we were talking about this earlier today, Holly and I
who when your kids get to a certain age, you
start getting reports. And in our kids' school reports were
always interested in the effort and the comments more than
the actual marks.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
I tell my kids, and I'm sure that having read
this now I should not. I always say that's the
mark I care about the most is the effort.

Speaker 5 (19:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
The only trouble is in their final exams, there's no
little brackets for how hard they try.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
If you ever, like me to see a cardiologist, you
don't want the one who tried the hardest, do you, No,
I just want the one who's good.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
And then when you get into the workforce, the person
who prepared the hardest and for the job interview doesn't
necessarily get the job. So I'm torn about this, but
I find that I have it in everything that I
do as a parent, because it's all about good trying,
good waiting, good thinking, good sharing. So we're very focused

(19:43):
on effort and intention. But I have noticed this at
work as well. I've been a boss for a lot
of years now, about thirty, and I've noticed over the
last maybe ten years there's a lot of sometimes indignant
insistence on output as the most important thing versus outcome.

(20:05):
We talk about this in our business a lot, and
so to many others, because people will often say I
tried really hard, we worked really hard, we put a
lot of time into this project, and it's like, well,
that's great. However it didn't work. The output might have
been huge, but as Jesse said, if the outcome is
not good, the actual effort itself.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Doesn't count for anything.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
So we're in an outcome based society, not output.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
But that's tricky, right, I very much recognize that to me,
But the outcome isn't always in your control. How much
effort can you put into something is in your control,
but the outcome is not always because it's affected by
lots of other factors, right, And it's interesting to me.
You know, we as a society, although we do say
that we really value hard work, We really worship natural talent.

(20:56):
We really worship like high IQ, natural beauty, like speed,
whatever it might be that people are and renately got
it and things looking effortless. We really like that.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Whereas if people when it comes to female appearance, certainly
when it comes to women and an.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Intelligence, we talk all the time about they're smart. They're smart,
they're smart. We don't talk about whether or not they've
worked really hard to do that. And I wonder if
that's partly because of that You can work really, really
hard and what actually comes from that might not be
in your control. So then how do you measure success
at all?

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Is the praising of effort really about arts? Attempting to
teach kids and young people to love the process because
the process is where you're going to spend ninety nine
percent of your time and also character.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
I think it's about trying to teach character, but it
doesn't necessarily guarantee success. But would I rather that my
kids were pleasant and class, did their homework with polite
to their teachers, or that yes, that's character right, rather
than though I didn't try, I didn't do anything. I
wasn't a productive person or a good team player or
any but I got an A because I'm clever. Like,
that's not my value system.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
In all situations are the same. So for example, trying
in a relationship is worth a lot. Some things you
can't control, but you can control how much you try,
whereas at work there are no rewards for trying.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
I mean there can be. You know, it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
We have a lot of shout outs and encouragement for
people who try, because that is a character and a
core value that you really want. But I think what
Adam Grant says, which is the key to this is
what you need to do is say I tried really hard,
which does count for something, but the outcome was not
what I wanted and not what I'd hoped for and

(22:43):
feels not true to the amount of effort I put in. Therefore,
what could I do differently. So I used to hear
a lot a writer would say, I wrote this really
great story. It was fantastic, it just didn't do well.
No one read it, And I'm like, well, then it
wasn't great. What are we missing? Was it the headline
perhaps could have been different, was it the image we chose,
was it the way we promoted it?

Speaker 1 (23:06):
A story, it's a.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Bit like if a tree falls in a forest. You
can try really hard, story can be really great, but
what's the objective measure of that greatness? And in a
workplace it is fairly objectives.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
A point of effort, though, is that it's meant to
be internally validating. So what we're trying to teach kids
is that you should be proud that you tried, and
pride is meant to come from within. It's not meant
to be something that your teacher gives you, or your
boss gives you or whatever. It's something that you go
to bed at night and your internal validation I know
I tried my best is the internal validation. Because you

(23:40):
can sit down and do your best and write a
book that you believe is really good and put in
three times as much effort as you ever have with
anything you've ever done, and that book might absolutely flop.
And that's because of luck, and it's because of timmunity
and market and all of the things you can't control.
But if you're doing everything for external validation, then it's

(24:00):
never going to be that satisfying anyway. So really, I
think effort is just something about like it does we
should get our self esteem from how does that work.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
In the real world when it comes to trying to
get a job, trying to retain that job, doing your exams.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
It doesn't actually matter how much effort you.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Think it does, though, Like if I walk through my
life and I go I didn't get that opportunity, but
I know that I tried my absolute best. There's a
real peace with that. There are people I see who
don't want to try their best because that's a scary
thing to do because rejection could be on the other side.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
I'm already to try. I see what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
So you're saying that as parents, we're trying to help
our children to get that internal validation so that they're
not completely beholden to the validation external validation of the
outside world.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, which is like the weather. You can't control it.
What you can control is what you But.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
How do you I have a very clear memory of
being a like early high school kid. It will shock
you both to learn that I was not sporty, like,
not even a tiny bit, but I quite like running.
And we've earned one hundred meters athletics and I remember going,
I am going to run as fast as I can.
We're going to run so hard, We're going to try

(25:15):
so hard, and I was just shit at it. Yeah,
And I went, well, clearly, I'm not a runner, and
I just would go and smoke sickies behind the bike
shed for the rest of the whole rest of my
sports career. I see this in my kids where they
put in a lot of effort on a particular essay
or whatever and they don't get a good mark and
they just kind of go, yeah, well, what's clearly I'm
not good at that, so I'm just not going to

(25:36):
do that. Or I tried really hard to understand that massing,
but I'm not good at it. So mathstead to me,
like it's really hard to there's still a lesson in
there have any motivation for things that they don't succeed
that because most of us are average at most things. Right,
most of us are like a few people are really
good at a handful of things, but most of us
are pretty average at most things. So if we're only

(25:57):
interested in outcome, then you wouldn't do ninety percent of
the things you've got to do.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, and I guess that's resilience. But it's like maybe,
then you go, it's about changing your goals, right, and
you go, well, next time, I want to come second, last, last.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
That is, after the break, We've got you sorted with
some recos, including something to cook, a movie to make
you cry, and a TV show about bitches.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
This is my best recommendation.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
It's Friday, so we want to help you set up
the weekend with our best recommendations.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Holly, please go first, something to eat while wearing fast.
We've been talking about protein around here, Haley. I am
in my big chicken salad era because I love chicken. Chicken, chicken.
We talked about it the other week. Maybe chicken with
egg maybe chicken with legoons.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
What anyways does this chicken?

Speaker 3 (26:57):
Have you noticed that eggs there's a shortage because of
bird flu, so anyone else.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
It's very disheartening. It's tricky froust vegetarians. I am recommending
a chicken salad from the one and I only wonderful
Nagi of recipe in Eats fame now if you don't
know about Recipe to Eats, and of course you do,
because everybody does. She is the most unbelievable cook and
her two most recent cookbooks she became really famous for
having recip eats online. It's what we might have once

(27:25):
called a blog became a cult hit. Her last two
cookbooks have been like they outsell everything in the universe.
Is it just about things in a tin? No, not
at all, Not at all. I thought it was all
things that you could make with tin.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
No.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
No, Recipe in Eats just comes from the original name
of it, which is like a tin that you keep
your recipes in. Oh you see, not really, but any
always stand the reason everyone loves there as the food
is really tasty. It's relatively simple and basic and it
always works. And her most recent book is called Tonight,
and I have been making from it this it's called

(28:01):
Cowboy Chicken Salad, and it's like a Mexican chicken salad.
Chicken so you get chicken breast, and obviously you're going
to need the proper recipe because I'm not.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
But like, do you grill it?

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Do you whack itack whack, which is very satisfying to
get it nice and flat. Then you marinate rob it
in some stuff which obviously argue you'll tell you what
that is, but it's like you know, Mexican spices. You
marinate it and then you grill it, and then you
have it on this salad, which is like avocado, tomato, corn,
black beans. But the thing that makes it amazing, as

(28:33):
with any salad, is the dressing. And it's this Mexican
dressing with like lime and cumine and whatever. But I
make mine with yogurt because too much mayo makes me
feel poorly. But you can use mayo if that's your vibe.
I just can't tell you how good it is that
I love it satisfying and how much it is a
meal that just fills you up. And if you want
less avocado because you're not doing that or whatever, of

(28:54):
course you can do whatever you want.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Eat it.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, Matilda loved it, Billy Woni. Then the thing that's
vaguely looks like a vegetable, but he ate the chicken part.
Could I do it with a barbecued chicken? Oh chicken? No,
Well you could, but it wouldn't taste quite as good.
But yeah, dressing would hide a million sins. I'm looking
for a lower effort way. Yeah, it's not that hard
to promise, but it's delicious. Of that cowboy chicken salad,

(29:18):
it is my recommendation. It is all I'm eating this summer.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
I texted every mother I know about the movie Night Bitch,
which I watched over the long weekend.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Is super cute. Do you just love getting to be
home with them all the time? Yeah? I do. I
love it. You're an artist, right, well I used to
feel wow, but that feels like a lifetime agirls. Yeah,
totally definitely we get it. I used to be a stripper, Mamadie.

(29:54):
I'm not buzzy. I just feel aw look at my
teeth sharp.

Speaker 5 (29:58):
There's a little bit weird.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Motherhood and changes you and connects you to some primal urges.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Have you ever felt so exhausted as a that you
worried you might actually be turning into a dog.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Maybe not not exactly that dog, but a wild animal.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yes, that's the premise of Night Bitch. It stars Amy Adams.
She was nominated for a Golden Globe for Best Actor
in a Comedy or Musical. It's been categorized in that
genre body horror, along with the substance. But it's not
anything like the substance that was too gory for you.
There's one tiny.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Scene that's a little bit erh Is it funny? I
think so much.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
It looked almost like a black comedy, like the concept
is Finney.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
Yeah, exactly. The concept is funny but also very powerful.
It captures something really raw about motherhood that I've never
seen on screen before, and the turning into a dog thing.
There's no spoilers here, but it's actually just such an
amazing metaphor for how primal and feral motherhood can feel.
So Amy Adams is a woman who's got a toddler,

(31:05):
her husband is away for work a lot, and it's
just which is so good.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
It's on Disney.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
Plus, I'm just desperate for everyone to see it so
that I can want to watch it.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
I will totally watch it.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Jesse My recommendation is also a movie. I went to
the movies over the weekend and saw We live in
Time with Andrew Garfield and Florence Pew and it is
exactly what I expected.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
What's happened to my own?

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Why it's an idea?

Speaker 3 (31:35):
I'm so sorry, But do we know each other yet?

Speaker 4 (31:38):
No?

Speaker 1 (31:41):
I run you over? Sorry, Sorry, I'm Alma by the way.
Both we're going to make sure you have the time
of your life. Okay, probably ought to get go, he says.
Unless you have checked to do, then I have nothing.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Whether we like it or not.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Clock is ticking because I'm worried. There's a very distinct
and real possibility that I am about to fall in
love with you.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
It's brilliant, it's moving. How long did it take me
to cry?

Speaker 1 (32:21):
I reckon.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
I cried in the first fifteen to twenty minutes, which
a lot of people have said. And then you just
you managed to cry the whole way along. But what's
amazing about it is that at no point does it
hit you over the head. There are points where I
went you could have gone harder on that, but it's
the subtlety of the pain. In a lot of the moments.
When the lights came on at the end, I just
was heaving crying like it. It is so so well done,

(32:45):
and Florence Pugh steals it. In my opinion. The broad
storyline is that there's Almut and Tobias. It's been called
a sort of rom com vibe. It's them, and then
she receives a diet. So yeah, I thought it was
interesting to call it a rom com, but that's the genre.
Apparently she receives a diagnosis. And what's new about this

(33:06):
is that it explores ambition and motherhood and not wanting
to just be remembered as someone's dying mother, Like what
do you want out of that period of your life?
And you know how it's the cliche or no one
lays on the deathbed thinking they want to work more.
This may be challenges that a bit and says what

(33:28):
would you want to do? And what might it take
from the people you love? So it's so really good?

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Is it very distressing? Well? What do you think? I
didn't know.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
I knew that it was about illness, but what I
didn't know was that they had a daughter, and that
bit killed me, Like that bit there.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Because I think we talked about this, but like I
want to go somewhere and just cry. I will. I
love movies that make me do that. And I love
the idea because if there are so many movies from
Turns of Indment to Sleep Sin Seattle that have dead moms, right,
and it's true, but they are always absolutely selfless angels,
like it's just the trope, right, So I'm really interested.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
In saying that played with the challenged.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
What was it like when the last came on? It
was not good.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
I was there with two friends and they just couldn't
stop laughing, And then they were like, and they kept
saying one line from it that just got me. It wasn't.
I cried all the way home, but it felt good.
I'm not a crier, Like I can't remember the last
time I cried, and it just felt very cathartic to
get that out.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
I've got one more little throw in before we go,
before I forget. I watched it over the holidays.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
One of my favorite TV shows of all time, The's Split.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
I've never watched remember.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
There were about four seasons.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
It was about a family of women who were all lawyers,
a mother and her three daughters. Two of the three
daughters were lawyers, and it was just a beautiful, interesting
and they were family lawyers. So each week there was
someone's divorce that they were working on, and it also
followed their lives. Anyway, I loved it. It was written
by Abby Morgan who is a phenomenal writer any way

(35:07):
she has done. They did a bit of a Christmas
special which was like a three episode arc where they
got the cast back together and it was the split Barcelona.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
You look amazing. I love a good weather. Have you
been dating a couple of dates a few months ago?
Archie asterious lawyer, We may have a Seriously, Hannah, what's ho?
Are you back? Scared of being alone? Scared of being
with someone?

Speaker 4 (35:32):
But isn't anything worth doing? Terrifying?

Speaker 1 (35:35):
Another taste of that.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
It was, you know, a bit like four weddings and
a funeral but in Spain. They all go to Spain
for the main character, Hannah, her daughter's getting married and
it's just where do you watch escape as viewing on
ABC iView And it's worth it just for the Barcelona's scenery.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
It or make you want to go to.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Spain after the break, an ambition, crisis, a big booboo.
It is our best and worst of the week.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Every Tuesday and Thursday we dropped new segments of Mama
Mia Out Loud just for Muma MEA subscribers. Follow the
link in the show notes to get your daily dose
of out Loud and a big thank you to everyone
who is already subscribed.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
It's time for Best and Worst of the week. This
is a part of the show where we share a
bit from our personal lives. What's been going on, Holly?
Your worst? Please?

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Well you know what my worst is, Jesse, because you've
got a panicked message from me in the middle of
Thursday morning saying, do you know how to get something
out of the trash on your computer when you have
already emptied it.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
I had a bad feeling when I read that message,
and I said to you, the good news is you
have your.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Worst, and you did. I was in my little office
at home. We were going away for the long weekend,
and so I was getting ready and you know, you're
like prepping things. I was answering some emails, making sure
I had everything in place, and in the most uncharacteristic
move of my life, I went my desktop. It's a
terrible mess.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
I've done this, Yeah, terrible mess.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Just twenty million random screen shots, you know, all that
kind of stuff. You know what our desktops look like, so,
I'm just going to get a little clean out, big
clean out, just whack it all in the trash. And
then in the second incredibly uncharacteristic move, I went and
I'm going to empty the trash because I'm sure I'm
taking up a lot of memory on my computer. So
I hit empty trash and then I thought, I've got

(37:34):
to just finish that very important proposition for the next
book I'm writing that my publishers waiting on that I've
been working on all summer. That's thousands of words. I
better just finish that before we go away and send it.
And then I realized that I had thrown that in
the bin on my computer and pressed empty. And I

(37:54):
cannot tell you how upset I was.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Did you cry?

Speaker 1 (37:59):
You know? I didn't actually cry. I nearly cried. I
got very mad. Brent heard me screaming, and so he
came out and he was like, you know, when you're
getting ready to go away and there's chaos and everything,
you're packing and the kids, blah blah, and he was
like what what? And I was like had He immediately
went into don't panic, you're panicking. You're panicking, and I

(38:19):
was like yeah, So that was so bad.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Panic is the only appropriate was that I went to AI.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
I did it before everyone goes you can do time machine.
I did all that. I went to all my clever
AI assistants. I asked them, then they told me what
to do. Then I tried. All those things didn't work,
which is also my fault. Like my eyicloud, I hadn't
saved it in the right folder to be on the cloud.
I hadn't updated my this and my that and all
that boring stuff, so I hadn't done any of that,
so it had really really gone. We even went to

(38:46):
an actual human who works in the computer shop with
my laptop, like Curry Bradshaw in that scene, yes, saying
can you help me, sir, please, kind sir, I'm desperate,
and he said no. And the thing that was so
weird about it, and I was so mad with myself,
is that it was so uncharacteristic that I'd written this
thing in the place that I had in a word
doc that I kept on my desktop. Normally I do

(39:07):
all that in a special program that's got saved somewhere,
like it was just like a series of that was crazy.
So then I tried to talk myself into well, clearly
that was meant to happen.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, I was going to try it, you.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Know what I mean say that, but I don't believe. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
The worst thing about that is you want to be
mad at someone like you want to be mad at
the technology. You want to be mad, and then it's
really upsetting when it just is you.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
It was just me, And then I had to obviously
spend the rest of the weekend trying to recreate this
thing that I'd been working on in parcels all summer long.
It was very upsetting. I was very upset. We may recover,
we may not. Who knows. Anyway, Maybe you won't recover
the document you emotionally may emotionally.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
I love also that you saving to say to your publisher,
I'm sorry I can't hand it.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
In because I deleted it. I mean, that's some fucking
Freudian shit. Yeah, And you wouldn't believe it, would you
just be like, she's been kicking back all summer long? Anyway,
I haven't probably Anyway. My best is that then we
did go away, and the thing that was lovely, but
it must I can imagine. I was really really fun
and relaxed, but while I was stressing and trying to

(40:17):
remember all the great ideas I had. We made the
children do real life things. So we angst all the
time about how the kids don't live in the real
world anymore. And I have this sort of policy that
I think we've spoken about before where they have to
do one, like at least one real life thing every day,
like real life thing that's connected to the world. Anyway,
where we went was a bit further down the coast

(40:38):
and where we live, and there's this famous and possibly
quite dangerous I apologize to anyone who's going to tell
me I'm irresponsible, like jump there that kids jump off
not a rock, like not that kind of thing, but
like kind of like an old platform and you jump
into the ocean and the ocean's crystal clear and it's gorgeous.
And I was like, kids aren't going to do that.
Kids these days don't take risks. My kids spent push them.

Speaker 4 (40:59):
I wouldn't have pushed anyone off anything at this point.
I wasn't throw myself off there at first.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
I'm just like they spent all weekend of throw themself
this having the best time ever.

Speaker 4 (41:11):
It was like this.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Beautiful, wholesome childhood thing. It was great. Billy, who gets
very obsessed about stuff, started counting how many times he'd
jumped off this thing. By the end of the weekend,
he'd jumped off at forty two times. I my wowness,
it was so much fun. So my worst was my
IDoc and my best was kids jumping off high stuff.
Be careful, take precautions. Everybody on both of those topics

(41:32):
maya what was your worst?

Speaker 3 (41:34):
My worst and my best were intertwined this week in
the way that occasionally these things happen with bittersweet things.
I made the announcement yesterday that I am stepping away
from No Filter after ten years and I think six
hundred and fifty something episodes.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
I've tried to do this.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
A couple of times before, as listeners to No Filter
No and as you guys know, when I've needed a
little bit of a breather, I've persuaded some people, including
both of you, to step in for occasional episodes. Kate
Langbrook hosted for me over summer last year, but I
knew it was time. I've been wanting to do this
for a couple of years. It hasn't been possible because

(42:16):
there hasn't been anyone who has been able to take
it over.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
It's a big job. You're annoying. It's a big show.
Have jobs. It's a big show.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
And I explain in this announcement that I made in
the No Filter feed why I decided to do it,
and it basically comes down to I've been piling things
on my plate for seventeen years since starting this company
with my husband, and I've finally worked out that if
I just keep adding more things, it's not possible. So

(42:49):
I've finally understood how time works.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
That's part of it.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
So to be able to do more things and new things,
I have to stop doing some of the things I've
been doing for a long time, and also creatively. As
much of an honor and a privilege as it is
to sit in those rooms and have those intense conversations,
they are intense, and I've done a lot. I've got
much better at interviewing from when I started my God

(43:12):
and I've learned so much. Yes, and I'm proud to
say I'm a really good interviewer now. But I've done that,
Like the challenge of it isn't there for me anymore,
even though every interview is obviously different. I've kind of
done it, so I was ready to hand it over.
I have persuaded Kate lane Brook to take the mic
from me on a permanent basis, and she's the new host.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Her first episode is next week.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
I am the guest because I was easy to book,
and we're going to go into a little bit more
about why I decided to leave, and just also me
interviewing her. It's more of an in conversation really, because
she's got amazing for that. And funnily enough, we recorded
this a year ago before it was going to be
her first episode of her summer hosting thing. Part of
the reason I've decided to move away from No Field.
I was in a really bad state.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
Then we recorded the interview, and then when I heard it,
I was like, I can't.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
You sent it to both few people.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah, you guys.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
It was one of my favorite interviews. It was so honest,
it was so insightful. I loved it, and I was
so I think I even just a few months ago,
I said, please release that.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
I really upset that we didn't release it anyway. This
one's just it was a little bit more, you know,
I was talking from a wound, and now I'm talking
from a scar, and I hope you'll find this one
better because I have more perspective and there's kind of
more resolution, whereas I was really in it at the
time and it was just a bit of a hot mess.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
So that's both my worst and my best.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
How do you feel right now having actually really this process?

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Now that I can people know about it and I
can be public, and I've got some lovely messages, and
it's been lovely looking back at some of the interviews.
But I interviewed everybody that I wanted to interview. I
ticked every box that I wanted to tick.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Is it hard watching someone else hold your baby? It
is glorious. It is so so glorious.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
There's a word that I learned from someone I interviewed
on No Filter who was in a thruple Rowan Mangan
who she's in a thrapple with two other women, and.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
She said, there's a word. It's the opposite of jealousy.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
It's called compersian, where you feel happier from watching someone
that you love be loved by someone else. And I
feel so happy watching Kate do such an incredible job.
I mean, she just happened in those six episodes that
she did last summer, did the most downloaded episode of

(45:36):
the year for No Filter, when she interviewed Andy Lee,
and not a single scaic of me.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Was jealous or you know, disappointed that it wasn't me competitive.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
It's the opposite, because my biggest challenge in running this
company is finding people who are better than me and
smarter than me so I can do less. And you know,
for me finding her with No Filter, I'm getting emotional.
It was beautiful and I'm just so feelly happy.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
Well, I'm going to miss you on there, but if
it's going to be anybody, Kate, thank you. I have
learned a lot listening to that show. Jesse, what was
your worst? My worst?

Speaker 2 (46:12):
It's a big one that I've sort of had over
the summer, which is this crisis of ambition, is how
I would put it. And at the beginning of the year,
we've talked about this before I go full Oprah for
a month and I usually I'm very goal oriented and
I like knowing what I want and having clear goals
and I don't have any. I don't have one, and
I've been trying to find them, and I find it

(46:35):
very discombobulating. And then my word of the year is creativity.
And I've sat down and I've gone all right, well,
come on, what are you going to do? And the
sensation is like when you're trying to run in a
dream and you can't run, Like I just feel really
not like myself in that way, and I feel.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Like there's an itch that you want to scratch, but
you don't know what the itch is or could this
just be for the first time in many years, pretty
much since I've known you, you're not spread completely thin
and overwhelmed.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
It's that.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
But to be completely on it, I am experiencing.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
Boredom like I'm unchallenged.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah yeah, And I love going to work like I
love my job more than I have ever loved my job.
The problem with this job is that it actually does finish,
so I found it. Even on the weekend, I'm like, Okay,
well I want to do something. Luna's gone down for
sleep and I've got a couple of hours I can't
do out loud.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Just spuck up the group chat.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
You can't.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
That's a thing about a book or an idea or
you've always done.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
I've read this thing about how motherhood Like your hands
are busy, but your mind can be idle. There's a
lot of time to think, and I don't know what
I meant to be thinking about. I would like to
be marinating on something, but I don't have a thing
to hold on to.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Are you going to write another book?

Speaker 2 (47:53):
I want you, but I don't like. I kind of
have an idea. This is a thing, right, is that
when I go to work, I've designed my life around
being incredibly efficient, and I have no guilt around working
with a baby. I've no guilt, but I go I'm
a efficient and then I go home to her. The
problem with creativity and writing is that it's not very efficient.

(48:16):
So the idea of sitting there and writing for two
hours and taking that time away from lunar and coming
up with nothing, I can't justify that. And I'm really
struggling with how to explore creativity in a way that
doesn't feel incredibly selfish. When it's like I sit down
at the computer, I'm like, well, I'm going to write

(48:37):
a book. But you know, if I'm going to spend
two hundred hours writing a book, it better be an
award winning masterpiece. Oh wow, and guess what not how.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
That Protestant work effort.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
It's a bad effort.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, so kind of in a weird place of that.
But my best is I did an escape room this
week with eight friends. We went and I had forgotten
about escape rooms. I got really into them like maybe
five or six years ago, and then a friend suggested
it and it was so fun. And before you go,
you're kind of like, oh, can I be bothered? And
before we were all going, someone was dating someone new

(49:12):
and you're kind of trying to talk, and then you
go into the escape room and you're like, well, we
can't gossip.

Speaker 1 (49:17):
I've never done. So they sound like my worst nightment.
No no, no, no no.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
They're very mindful because it's like you don't think about
anything else. They take your phone. It's a different part
of your brain that you're operating. Everyone's brains work differently,
Like it was so fun.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Who's the Boss in an Escape Room? US escape leaderboard?

Speaker 2 (49:38):
We were thrown in and it was a senses It
was about your senses, so you had to use all
of your senses from smell to sight. There was one
where it was completely dark. There was a braille like
all of that. It was amazing.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Who takes the lead? You are some people are better
at those things than others, right, so it would be
it must be competitive in there.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Yeah, So it's like everyone's looking around at different things.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
So problems treasure hunt, I'm terrible of that kind of yeah, terrible.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
And there's lots of red herrings. So when we walked in,
there was newspaper all over the walls and there were
different random letters circled and you had to work out
if it was spelling something or whatever. But an additional
recommendation is that I was speaking to a friend who
has just met someone on a dating app and it
is an AI dating app, and I have become obsessed.
It is called a Marta Amata and she's been on

(50:29):
dating apps for years no luck. She finds this dating
app and it's a chatbot and she goes, Hi, I'm
looking for someone who blah blah blah, and just gave
them all this information and they said you might like Jack,
and they say here's Jack. Jack likes this and that
and blah, and she goes, yeah, great, looks great. Went
on a date with this person and it's just like
the best relationship she's had in forever. But people are

(50:52):
talking about this dating app because a chatbot takes in
all the nuances of what you want, yeah and matches you, and.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Like they should do that on maths. There should be
the robot that matches the people up. Get Ai to
do it.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Because all my single friends are saying, hinge Tinder a
lot of issues, right, is that it's just they're not
succerethful at the moment. But this one, she was just saying,
go and try it. So everyone who's single and looking
for dating app, try this one.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
We need to do an episode. We get to respond
to Jesse's Cristi of Ambition because I have twenty five
pieces of useless advice for you. Oh I'm excited, but
we need to do that. We need to do that
because we have run out of time.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, exactly right, exactly. I can update you all on
my performance psychologist.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Cand wait and share the tips so that we don't
have to go see one. That is all we've got
time for. Out louder Is on our Friday show, Thank
you for being with us all week. We will be
back in your ears next week. Of course, Jesse and
Mia read us out today.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Ruth Devine, executive producer Emiline Gazillis, our audio producer is
Leah Porgis, and video producer is Josh Green, and.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
A bonus record from our group EP Ruth. She's desperate
to tell you about a product she believes makes her
look less dead in the morning. Out louder, she says,
home home, h O home, I know this brain is
home like Katie Holmes, Yeah, Holme beauty. It's a setting spray,
and she says it has glow for days.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
I heard.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
I was just googling yesterday about wearing white with makeup,
and it was saying that you've got to put a
setting spray on because you've told me this, You've got
to put hairspray on your color.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
So if you're ever wearing white or something light, use
hairspray before you put it on. You don't do it
when it's on you and leave it for like five
seconds or ten seconds to set and then put it
on and then your makeup went smudge onto it.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
But setting spray is the other top tip. You put
it on, it's not going to transfer out louders. If
you're not ready to say goodbye. We thought we'd leave
you with a little bit of a conversation we had
on a subscriber episode with one of your favorites, Amelia Lester.
We were talking about fashion and the tyranny of looking
like you haven't tried. I want to start today by

(53:08):
asking you both. I should probably say as well. We
have a very special guest on this subscriber episode, Amelia.
Lest you are sitting in hollywain Wright seat.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
I am. Should I push on a different accent? Don't try?
I try for me cringe.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
Apparently we try often. Hello, Nor, I want to know
how do you want to look when you leave the house?

Speaker 3 (53:32):
Maya?

Speaker 2 (53:32):
You first? What are you aiming for when you walk
out of the house in the morning.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
How I want to look to the others or how
I want to feel in myself?

Speaker 2 (53:39):
How you want to look to others? What do you
want people to think of what you're wearing?

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Is Copenhagen? Oh my god? Can I say Copenhagen? I
want people to think She's A.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Link to that episode will be in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Bye bye.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Shout out to any mum and mea subscribers listening. If
you love the show, and you want to support us,
Subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way
to do so. There's a link in the episode description.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Therein s

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