February 8, 2025 • 53 mins
OutLouders, last week Mia shared the news that after 10 incredible years, she's passing the No Filter baton to Kate Langbroek. Today, we're flipping the script - Mia's in the guest seat, and Kate's asking the questions.
When these two powerhouses tried to record this conversation last year, the timing wasn't right. Now, they're diving deep into why — a raw discussion about burnout, grief, and what happens when you finally listen to yourself.
This isn't just a story about endings. It's about courage, new beginnings, and the unexpected paths that lead us there. Plus, Kate shares her vision for No Filter's next chapter.
Consider this your all-access pass to a conversation between two broadcasting legends.
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CREDITS:
Host: Kate Langbroek
You can find Mia on Instagram here and get her newsletter here.
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Grace Rouvray
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hey, out louders, it's Maya here for your out loud
Sunday special.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I know I've been banging on a little bit on
I feel like I've been banging on about hosting, well,
not hosting No Filter anymore, and passing the mic over
to Kate Langbrook. I spoke about it on last week's show,
the announcement came out, and today I'm excited to share
with you. You might have heard it if you follow
(00:45):
No Filter. If you don't, why don't you? But if
you missed it, Kate's very first episode as a new
host of No Filter, and she's got an amazing guest.
It's a complete exclusive. It's me shocking twist. No one
saw this coming. I was very easy to book. I
want you to also get to know Kate a little
bit because, of course, because it's me, I have to
(01:05):
turn the tables and start asking her questions. She's got
a phenomenal story. Mother of four, Her eldest was diagnosed
with leukemia when he was really little, and she spent
years keeping this out of the public eye and dealing
with that while she had more children, and it's an
amazing story. I absolutely love this woman. I'm practically dry
humping her in the studio. You can hear if you
(01:26):
listen closely. Here is a very special episode of No Filter,
hosted by Kate Langbrook. And for more of Kate and
more of the show, she's got some phenomenal interviews coming up.
Make sure you follow the link in the show notes
and subscribe. Felt like I had no skin, Yeah, you
felt like I was just raw. I was just an
open I was just all Yeah, I had no protection. Yeah,
(01:51):
I was just I was a friggin.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Mess for Mama, Maya.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
This is No Filter.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I'm Kate Langbrook. Yes you are, Yes, I am. I'm
going to introduce Okay, I'm Kate Lanebrook and I'm joined
by someone who when I have listened to No Filter
over the years, I have wanted to talk to this
person more than anybody else. I would like to introduce
(02:30):
my very special guest, Maya Friedman.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I was easy to get.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Wow, you were not easy to get.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Well, that's true. That's also true.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
In fact, part of the reason I think we're sitting
here is that you've been very hard to get.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I like playing hard to get. Yes, we did have
an aborted attempt at this a year ago, didn't we. Yeah,
we did. I've been thinking about that a lot when
I was thinking about today and how this time last
year we sat down before you were going to host
the summer summers edition Summer Season of No Filter, to
see how you liked it, because I needed a rest,
and well, you were hanging by a three, taking you
(03:09):
by thread, and it wasn't, in hindsight, a very good
time to do an interview. And I never sit down
and do long form interviews, so I hadn't for a
long time before that, like years, And I sat down
and you thought it went well.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, it was great. It was absolutely fascinating, youth. I
would call it well at the time as well. Well,
I didn't really think about it a message afterwards. I
tried to cancel a few times. You did try to
cancel anyway.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
This is all boring, but this is all behind the
scenes stuff. But I pulled the pin because it wasn't
When I say it wasn't me at my best. I
just I was a hot mess. And I mean I'm
always a hot mess. But I was in a particularly
fragile state this time last year, and I didn't I
just didn't particularly want to put that out there because
I was still in the middle of being in that
(03:59):
fragile state, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Because you were processing something which I know at the time,
but I could tell when I was talking to you,
And do you remember the question that tricked your trigger?
Do you remember what it was?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I'll say it to you now because because you're in
such a vastly different place I said to you, because
I've been reading your book. I've read your book, and
this was you were on the cusp then of waiting
for strife to come out. So there was a lot
of there were a lot of shadows that came in
with you.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I felt like I had no skin.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, you were.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I was just raw. I was just an open I
was just all yeah, I had no protection.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, But you were still as you do and as
you have to do. You were still navigating your way
through this world because you've got so many, you know,
plates spinning at all times, and if you drop the plates,
there's a world on each of those plates. So I
get the feeling you're very conscious of not dropping those
(05:05):
plates because you don't want to damage the people that
are on the plates.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
That's very That's such an insightful observation. And you're right.
It's like, I think I probably had some kind of breakdown.
I had a sort of a slow moving, ongoing breakdown
over the last around that time, before that and probably
through to about halfway through this year, which.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Weirdly makes me want to laugh.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well it is, it's like, let's just crack into it. Hey,
we haven't even have no small talk.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well well you may as well laugh. Oh no, but
it is funny.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
It's like, because I had this breakdown and I probably
should have taken myself away somewhere, yes, but I couldn't.
I just couldn't. You Hosting the summer season of No
Filter was the first tentative step that I'd taken from
stepping back from really anything since I wasn't the editor
of MMAMEA anymore. I know. So yeah, it was it was, yeah,
(06:02):
I was just I was a friggin mess.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Because you know, those of us who really just if
we knew nothing about you others and your output, if
we knew nothing other than that, that is extraordinary, and
that is exhausting to think about. So you were exhausted
and this is this is the thing, and I wasn't
(06:24):
doing It wasn't a gotcha, it wasn't whatever. It was
like a genuine because I just wanted to work out
what your driver was, what your engine, what what what
your engine takes. And I said to you, because I'd
read your book, and I said, it's really interesting because
you you we talked about whether or not you ever
(06:45):
reflect on the amazing thing that you've built things and
you said no. And then I said, you know what's
interesting in your book and you talk about work that's
still got to be done and you know what you
could have done better? And I said, but you never
talk about the concept of happiness.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Do you remember that? All I can say I can
feel yeah again, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, And it was just a yeah. And then that
was like, I don't know, It's like someone pulled a
little stitch, the last stitch that you were hanging by,
and then you kind of just unraveled.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
A little bit. Oh yeah, a lot. Yeah, how to
we cry? Yeah, it's true, it's like happiness kind of
doesn't really when you're running a business, it's not. Actually,
that's a luxury that sort of sits on the side
and not to be matter like I also love my work.
I think it would be easier if I didn't. You know,
(07:44):
I didn't If I didn't love my work, I would
go I'm so burnt out, I'm so exhausted, I need
to back away. But firstly, when you've built something in
this size, it's hard to extract yourself. But also I
love it. I love what I do like I love
what I do. And it's a question of working out
when it's time to call time on certainty.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Okay, which has led us to this today. How do
you work that out? Because I mean, you are apparently
the Meya in Mum and Me well I used to be.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I think there's a lot of people who wouldn't even
know who I am anymore, who might experience Muma Mea
through one of our other podcasts, not no filter or
written content or social content that they might consume or something,
and they wouldn't even know, particularly younger people gen z
ds and millennials who wouldn't even know who I was,
which is the way it has always which is what
(08:40):
we've always wanted. Jason and I, Yes, as when we
first started our last seventeen years have been about slowly
backing me out.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's a long that's a long reverse.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
That's long driveway sories. That's when you're back into the
fence many which I've done many times, many many times.
My old producer on No Filter, Eliza Ratliffe, knows that
I've been trying to quit No Filter for two years,
and not because I don't love it, but just be
because it takes a lot, Like it takes a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yes, it's a lot, and for I mean people listening
to it, I think they know intuitively, even if they
haven't thought in a more academic since about how much
it takes that if you're interviewing someone who's got a
body of work, you pay them the courtesy of familiarizing
yourself with their body of work.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Well, that can be books, what is it can be? Yes, yeah,
all the different things and even just getting to understand
who someone is like To prepare for an interview, my
process is just very immersive and I can only do
it within about twenty four hours of actually sitting down
with them.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So because you've done so many new things over the
last I don't know, Like you said, there's a plethora
of new podcasts. It kind of feels like there's another
you're going to another level, which might be the les
which you kind of get to.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I think the business is getting bigger, but I want
to get smaller, right if that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
It does make sense. But do you know how to
do that?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Well, that's what the last sort of eighteen months to
two years has been. It's been setting us up for
Jason and I to be able to accelerate that with us,
like I don't want to completely building, but to go okay,
there wasn't an option until sort of the last eighteen months,
(10:40):
so that it's been finding the right people. A new CEO,
when new chief content officer, we've got a new chief
revenue officer, all these different people to put in to say, okay,
we now feel able to step back further to a
point where we don't have to run the whole thing anymore,
(11:00):
that they can take the baton from us. And you know,
you want to hire people who are smarter than you.
You want to work with people who are smarter than you.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
But after a while, when you've done something for a while,
it's hard to find those people because you've been in the.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Space it's really hard to find those people. And also
I'm free. So you know the reason why I'm like,
oh me, you can do it, me, you can do it. Me,
you can do it, and I'll put up my hand
is that I am free and I'm available of course,
and you know, hiring really good people like you and
other and the executives that we've got and all the
(11:36):
people that work in our business, including our head of content,
that costs a lot of money, and you have to
be you know, people see the front, but they don't know.
You know, it's like the dark gliding across the pond.
They don't see what's going on under the surface. And
there's a lot going on under the surface.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's like my husband who own nightclubs, and people always think, oh,
you must get cheap booze. You don't, you don't. You
actually can get it cheaper at Dan Murphy's. But also
they don't know about rent and people and insurance and Capra.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And La la la and Nicolas exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So what okay, So here's the thing with you and
you're seventeen year reversing out.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Of the driveway.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
But because it's not just a business, it's also your family.
So that is just another mind boggle. Like when I
was here yesterday and you were arriving with Luca and
Jesse Jesse, which was gorgeous, And then someone made the joke,
was at Luca that you just derived from the succession helicoptery.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, because it's like it was like we bumped into
each other in the car and they drove in together.
It's like, yeah, it's a family business. Like there's one
hundred and fifty people in it, but Jason and I
are the co founders, Luca is the chief operating and
product officer, and you know my friend and daughter in law, Jesse.
I posted a podcast with her, and so yeah, everyone's
(13:06):
various people are involved in the business. I mean to you,
youngest children just want to get away from it, you know,
if they'll probably get sucked into it too. So yeah,
that that means that it's not a job you can
easily quit.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
But also aside from the job, you've also as a
human and as a woman and as a mother, you've
become a mother in law and that's and a grandmother
and that's all happened at the same time as well.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, and I think that last year was a real
unraveling for me, Like on every level of my identity.
I turned, I turned, how old did I added? Whatever?
I turned fifty fifty three blurred. I became a grandmother.
My eldest son got married, Like all of these things happened.
My youngest child sort of, you know, got beyond that
(13:59):
age where you know, he turned sixteen. So it's like
I officially moved into that age of your kids are
growing up in a way their own families, and what
does that mean? And at the same time, the world
is telling you you're irrelevant, you're invisible, you're a carrying,
your socks are the wrong length, your socks, yeah, you're
(14:20):
a loser, all of those things. And then it's like,
well and then what do you do with your face
and what like? And I just I just lost it,
Like I just felt really it was like you know,
the when you're doing a software upgrade and you get
the like the spinning wheel, right, the wheel was just spinning.
It was like the spinning wheel. It's like it was
(14:41):
before this new phase. I was just really lost. I
was lost at work, I was lost at home. I
was lost in with my place in the world. All
of those things and part of the reason that I
also wanted to find the right person to hand no
Filter over to was I wanted to make some room
creatively to do some other things, and there just wasn't
(15:03):
any room. And I used to think that I could
just take on more and more and more and more.
And last year I realized, oh, I'm breaking, I'm broken,
and I realized that, okay, I can't. So I had
to make some space.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, and how okay. So, in my experience, when you
find yourself in situations like that, if you don't make
the decision, your body will make the decision for you.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
So it's like actors will often say, if they've been
in like a long run of a play, they get
sick on the last night they had their rap party
and then they got their down, So you had to
call it before your body called it.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
My body's tried to call it for a really long time,
like you know. Jason was talking to someone the other
day and said, MAYA has passed the point of burnout
so many times, because it's like it's just not been
an option. So it's been I've gone past burnout, past burnout,
past burnout, past burnout. And I was sick quite a lot.
(16:04):
In twenty twenty four, I just got like you know,
usual winter thing. Lots of people have just got sick.
My immune system has been okay, but I've also been
going through perimenopause and then menopause, and so it's been
all infusing to know what yes, exactly, and I just
I recover very very easily. And I've got a really
(16:24):
big engine, I think because I'm quite also forgetful, and
I just forget that I'm exhausted, Like don't I don't
marinate in things long, like I just slate well really well.
Or what time do you go to bed? I probably
I look at my phone until maybe fifteen seconds before
I'm before I'm asleep, Like I'll just look at it.
(16:47):
I'm not one of those people that need to do
special sleep hygiene and everything. I'm fortunate in that way.
And then I will just literally turn my phone off,
put it on the floor, and within fifteen seconds going
to sleep.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And how long do you sleep for?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Probably about seven between six to seven hours. Yeah, I
wake up pretty early.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Do you wake up and you're full of ideas? Or
do you wake up slowly and step into the day.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Oh, I've never been like a jump out of bed person.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
No, but sometimes I wake up and I'm like boo,
and it's like all these things have happened in my sleep.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Oh no, all of those things happen in my way. Yeah, okay,
yeah no. So often, what I've become very aware of
is that I wake up, open my eyes, pick up
my phone, and just saturate myself with stimulation. I think
that's probably what most of us do, and for my brain,
it needs that. But I've also become aware that that's
not a very gentle weight away here. It's not a brutal.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Pretty brutal, particularly if you're looking at news.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know. The first thing I'll do is
look at my WhatsApp and if any of the chats
have gone off, Like you know, sometimes I wake up
and there'll be thirty messages and it might be that
just one of my group chats has gone off overnight
about whatever, but it also could be breaking news that
I've missed because you know, someone else was up before me.
The day starts hard, and then on weekends, Luca brings
(18:11):
over Luna, so you're, yeah, I wake up to her,
you know, I get up and she's she arrives pretty
soon after. So yeah, I'm not. I'm not a sort
of lying around person. Like my brain just goes all
the time, which is exhausting in itself.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So you know how you were saying, Jason said you'd
gone beyond burnout so many times. How did that manifest?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Then? Great question? Just despair. I think just like cry
most days. Sometimes I'd cry in meetings, which is bad.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Sometimes i would out of just out of just full.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Full, overwhelmed, just overwhelmed, overwhelm, overwhelm, overwhelmed. I'd feel just
overwhelmed a lot of the time. And then I'd have to,
you know, come in here, and I'd lived because I
had to live, sure, But.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And also there's distraction then, and distraction is just so
gratefully received when you're like that.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I love coming in into the office and I love
you know, I love recording the podcast that Mummy are
out loud. And then No Filter would often be a
lot because when you have to meet like the conversations
that you have on this show, not that they're always
bleak or sad, but they're always deep and.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You have to be called no filter correct, So you
have to.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Meet someone there every single time. And it's really intense.
But I have this thing where I'll walk out of
the studio and I won't be able to remember anything.
So my poor producers would like try to sit down
with me afterwards and like what, and I'm like, I
don't remember anything.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
It's like I'm so present at them at that time.
But I've got a very efficient clearing system, like my
hard drives just constantly being deleted, delete, delate, delete.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Where you don't have the storage.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I don't have the storage. So I'll walk out and
then I won't I actually won't ever want to listen
to it again. I want to do won't even talk
about it again. And this show requires a lot of
you know, there's a lot of you've got to take
really good care of the people that you interview, and
you've got to follow through on that process. And I
just wasn't able to do that justice anymore. And I
felt what I love is actually I want to listen
(20:22):
to you interview people like I loved over Summer.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I love the girl I'm interviewing right now, your love
Mayor Friedman. I know you're desperate to escape, but you
shall not. I know where the exits are yeah, no
you don't. We've changed them. You're staying port.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I think you're the best interviewer in Australia. I think
you are. Oh calm down, you have because you're playful.
Even when we did that interview which we ended up
not publishing, you will so seamlessly because I was being interviewed,
but I was also observing you, not to judge you,
but just because I was interested in your in your practice,
and you did that really tricky thing which you took
(21:10):
me from tears and then you knew exactly when to
just bridge to something funny and we both laughed and
complete gear chack. But you know, it's an interesting it's
really rare. Most people can't do that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
But in friendships you do it all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
People do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
That's how you get your friends through, and that's how
you navigate those moments.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Where someone's really raw. And then you're like, it's true.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I'm curious about Jay saying you've gone beyond burnout so
many times, and because of your relationship with him as
a husband and a lover.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And a business partner. I know everyone says, I don't
know how you could work with your partner, I never could.
What do you say? I would have said the same thing.
I would have said the same thing. But it wasn't
your intention, was it. It was not my idea and
it was not my intention. But I certainly wouldn't be
here with Mum and MEA wouldn't be what it was. No,
(22:10):
if it wasn't for the two of us, Like he
wouldn't have done it without me, and I certainly wouldn't
have done it without him. And I wasn't. I'd already
been doing it by myself for eighteen months, and i'd,
you know, made no money for eighteen months. I'd built
an audience, but I didn't know how to monetize it.
I didn't have the skills or the bandwidth to do it.
And I didn't have the vision that he did for
(22:31):
the business. It's not I've got a business brain, but
not the big picture business and not the you know,
I can't I won't say I can't read a spreadsheet.
I remember Zoe Foster Blake said to me that when
she first started go to and she has a couple
of business partners co partners, and she said she'd sit
in meetings at first and be like, I don't understand
(22:53):
the numbers, and then she's like, and then I realized
that wasn't cute anymore. I don't do it to be cute.
But I also like, I just can't things that. I mean,
I suppose I could, and she has had to teach herself,
but there's no way I could do what I have
to do if I also had to do the other stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And I'm just not that good at the other stuff. Okay,
but how good are you at being a wife?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Terrible? Of all? Right, so bad, so bad.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Let's just have a moment's pause for PJS.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
He's very He's the nurture in this in our right.
It's not that I don't nurture the kids and I
don't love him. I love him. Maddling. We've just celebrated
our twenty fifth wedding anniversary. How did you celebrate for
the first time? We remembered, Oh, and we went out
to dinner and we've ever done that before. Really, we're
(23:44):
not like that, like when we don't give each other presents.
We're not present people. It's not our love language. We're
real homebodies. We love staying at home. So I often
think that if you've got a certain if every relationship
has a certain amount of petrol in the tank, yes,
until it sort of just runs out. Working together just
(24:04):
you you know, uses up that petrol.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Well, that's why that's why I ask, Yeah, I can't
even conceive of Like earlier last year, I was kind
of in between managers and Peter, my husband who I
also love, who I've been with for twenty one years.
He was kind of helping out for a while, and
it was really terrible. Not because he's terrible, he's really
(24:30):
good at business and he's whatever sexy, but.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
The marrying that, yeah, marrying a thing.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
The fantasy is that you're going to go in like
do you ever go into Jason's office, shut the door
behind you and just kind of take you up, because
that's great.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Can you imagine if we ever like touch each other
in meetings or something, Everyone's like ew, mum and dad, ew. No,
we don't do that. And that's why it's probably been
the best thing for our business and probably the worst
thing for our relationship is being in business. Although I've
also seen relationships where both couples are pulling in different directions.
(25:07):
Either one of them has a big job, or it
doesn't or they've both got big jobs or whatever, and
there's that constant competitiveness of whose job is more important
or whose role is more important.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
And a lot of actors, if actors go out with
other actors, they have a very similar kind of imagine
what that would be like, terrible madness to go out
with them. Yeah, and I think, you know, for us,
we've at least always been pulling in the same direction,
you know, and in that way, it's very efficient. So
we've been able to tag team with kids and with work.
(25:41):
But it means that you can't, like a couple of
years ago, Jase had a or tried to have a
sabbatical for three months, and he could have a sabbatical
from the business, but he couldn't have a sabbatical from
his wife, who is also part of the business.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And so when I would ring him and you know,
want to talk about something or be upset about something
that was really hard. So it's like he couldn't get
away from me and from me. And since we've appointed
a new CEO this year and he has moved into
this role of executive chairman, and he is not we
don't work together day to day anymore. That's been so good.
(26:17):
Oh my god, we've rediscovered each other. Wonderful. Yeah, it's
been wonderful because there.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Are aspects that you I mean, you just can't serve
us all parts at the same time.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
And it's really hard to be in meetings with someone
you know, so like you behave a certain way at home,
and like you know, when you're partner shitting you, you
give them a look across the table or you whatever,
fucked and then we're in meetings and some people here
have been in those meetings, you know, many years ago
when we would have discussions, we'd have Barney's about work,
(26:50):
and they'd be sort of uncomfortable. People get used to
it pretty quickly. But one time I had to say,
you know that other people can see the look that
you're giving me across the table, and he would have
to say the same to me, because you kind of
just forget that you've got to behave in a way
in front of other people. Yes, and it's yeah, it's
really it's been really challenging. But I'm very proud that
we are still married, yes, and that we have continued
(27:14):
to build the business together, and hopefully now that we're
able to you know, bring in new people and take
a step back. It means that we'll be able to
be married again and also just have some space from
each other. Yes, you know, like it's quite nice to
get home and go how is your day and not know, yeah,
(27:36):
you know, that's quite nice looking forward to seeing each other. Okay,
So if your plan is to make some more time
for yourself, really and how do you feel that? And
it's not going to be empty time if I know you? No,
But is that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Commensurate with what Jace wants for himself as well?
Speaker 1 (27:54):
The difference is that he loves Muma Mia and our
core purpose being to make the world a better place
for women girls actually came from him. I couldn't articulate it,
which is very embarrassing because I'm the writer in the family,
but he was the one, and I remember he wrote
it down on a piece of paper and he's like,
I think it's this, and because I was more just like,
it's the vibe. It's just the women and the vibe,
(28:15):
because I've like it's the water ice wimmen. I couldn't
even articulate it, but he could, so he obviously feels
very strongly about our core purpose, but he's got lots
of interests and hobbies and things that he wants to
do outside of mumamega. We're so well. The problem is
that my hobby is my work, which is I think
being one of the big drivers of Mumma mea. But
(28:36):
it makes it very hard to rest, it really does.
And so for me, the time that I get closest
to resting is I have a day a week with Luna,
which being a grandmother is so different to being a
mother in that you just can be very present because
it's like one day.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I know people say that, Yeah, I know, I.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Never understood it. Yeah, I don't understand. I still don't
understand that. You know, it is all of the same
amount of love. It's actually really weird because it's all
of the same amount of love, except they don't live
in your house, which is kind of wonderful, but also
you're coming to them devastation every time. But there's no
mental load. There's not one bit of mental load. There's
no guilt, you know, like I'm not like, oh no,
(29:17):
what if she hasn't eaten enough vegetables? Yeah right fake
beans again? Yeah, like she want a bickie? Oh, else,
I just love. It's just love. And it's not like
she stayed the night. She stays night a lot now,
but the first time she stayed the night, and if
she does stay and she wakes up in the night
when she was a little bit younger, and you know
that feeling when your baby wakes up in the night
(29:39):
or you toddally wakes up the night your kid, You've
got like there's a lot of feelings. It's like irritation
and resentment and a bit of panic and what if
this never what if I never sleep?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
But then you're also plased to see them in.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
A weird well yeah, and then I scanned my body
for any feelings of any negative feelings. Not one. It
was just like, yay, I get to sniff a little face,
I get to like give her a little cuddle and
give her a bottle, and you, oh, that's been fraught.
She calls me nana, So I thought I didn't want
to be called nana and whole anxiety, which I think
(30:11):
is really common in people when they become, particularly grandmothers,
because it's about your identity and grandma, like it suddenly
seems very important not to be called nana or grandma,
because I think what it meant for us was a
little old lady with gray hair whose life was over.
And we don't hear like that. I don't think you know,
(30:33):
like me, so I don't really. This is when I
was going through my whole identity crisis. I didn't want
to be that, and so it became very important to
not be called that and to be called maybe me
and me, I would decide, babies decide, don't. Well, she
just didn't call me anything. But what you don't realize
is that, for the first I don't know until they
can talk, it's not about what they call you, or
(30:55):
not about what you call yourself. It's about what everyone
else calls you. Because it's like here, you know, let's
here's nana or here you go to And so every
time they'd say grandma, I die a little bit inside.
And then I just realized, stop sucking making trying to
make me happen. It's not going to happen. But no
one's calling you that. It's like trying to give yourself
a nickname. It doesn't work, yes, And so I just went,
you know, I loved my nana so much. My kids
(31:18):
call my mum Nana. I'm like, I'll be Nana. There's
only two people who could be Nana, and I'll be
one of them. And then I had my latest neuroses
was that she also called Jesse's mum Nana.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh, so how do you different?
Speaker 1 (31:28):
I went into a panic and I'm like, then I
tried to get her a call because Jesse's mum's so
so cruizy, and so I'm like, maybe call her Nan.
And I was trying to control what she called her
and was just like, knock yourself out, whatever you want
me to be called. But now she just I tried
to get her to call and Nan, but she won't,
and so we're both Nana and I'm just like, who
(31:49):
gives a shit?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
And you can tell he well, lots of people.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I said it on out that and lots of it
was very funny conversation. Everyone was telling me how they
they had two nana's, but one was like, Nana Nana.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Husband's got old Nana, We've got old Nana, Lil, We've
got Nana Ree his mum and Marie.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
So kids work it out. I know the difference. But
that speaks to my insecurity because I'm all about leaderboards
and I was worried that I would be low down
on the leaderboard of who she loved. This is how
I think about things.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Do you think that?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Because I honestly, if there was anyone to delight a child,
it's your elf and energy. Like seriously, well maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
It's in security. It's insecurity, I guess, But it's also
how I make sense of the world because I'm sort
of chaotic and I need to I like rules and
I like to know where I stand. I like feedback,
I like I like knowing things. So I was very
much well at the top of the leaderboards Jesse and
then Luca, and then Claire, Jesse's twin sister, and then Anne,
(32:54):
Jesse's mum, and then maybe me. Right, so I'm like, okay,
I'm number five. So Anne suggested that I just be
called five, and I was like, I got really upset
about that, and because anyway, it's just I told you,
I've been how two years like it's been, I've been
(33:16):
all over the shop, but I've not known who I am.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think because I've seen you a little bit fleetingly
in those times and always lovely actually, but it's felt
to me like you're rebuilding.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yes, that's exactly right. I could see it like being
in a crystalist. Yeah yeah, yeah, and not that I
was a caterpillar and now in Butterfly. It's not like that,
but it was like it was a different phase of
my life and a different you know, it doesn't You
don't just go from one chapter to the next chapter.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
And transitions are very painful and no matter where they are,
a new job, new, like anything, that's.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Very hard, very leave behind and fear. But stepping into
the unknown is always uncertainty. I'm not good with any
of that. I'm really not good with butriminals face, I don't.
I think most people aren't.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Really. I just think you expect more of you yourself.
I I I get very impatient. I'm like, again, I
know on the side, are we there yet? Are we
there yet? Am I in this new phase yet? Do
I understand who I am?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yet?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And it was years of not not knowing what I
wanted not knowing, and I just find that very inefficient.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Mayor Friedman, please stay till after this wheat break twisted
my own. I'm just thinking about what you've built, and
I mean you built it for women, women and girls.
But I think the woman, and the girl that you
(34:50):
built it for was yourself. Because do you know what
I mean? If you think about if you think about
the conversations that happen every day and the things that
everyone's exposed to and that you bring to people, and
the little nugget of cheese or the dead mouse that
the cat leaves at the doorstep, all of that that
(35:11):
seems like it might have been for you to find
yourself or to bring something to yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yes, I think because I am so basic, I'm very common,
and I say that in a way like I'm very
i am very ordinary. And the things that I feel
and the things that I'm interested in are not the
things that everybody feels and they're interested in, But a
lot of people feel and are interested in those things too.
(35:41):
So often I'm always an observer of my own behavior,
and I know that when my behavior is shifting from
a consumer point of view, a content more likely that correct.
So like when I didn't know how to start a
business and I started a lady startup, or when I
was interested in perimenopause but there was nothing out there
and it felt very uncool, and we started the very
we did the very Perry summit, and it's kind of like,
(36:03):
what's next, What's next? What is next? I'm working on something. Yeah,
I'm working on a little secret thing. Oh and it's
not secret because I'm being KOI. It's secret because I
just want to see what it is.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Like.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
One of the things I find I'm not suited to
being in a business of this size. I'm just not.
I don't have the patience for it. I don't have
I just I don't want to be in meetings and
I have to go through layers and you need all
of that at a company this size. You need processes
and layers and strategies and schedules. I just want to
(36:41):
work on a little couple of little things and it's
still a bit embryonic. And until it's done, I don't
commercialize it. I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Don't jinx it.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
It's not even jinxing it. It's just that I'll kind
of lose energy for it and lose interest in it
because you know, the economics of making content is that
it'll have to be sold and it will have to
be sponsored, and we'll have to you know, we'll have
to work out when in the schedule it should happen
and blah blah blah, and all of that I completely
(37:13):
understand because I think a lot of people don't get
that content costs money to create.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
You know why now, because we're used to getting it
for nothing. Yes, people don't even buy a newspaper anymore.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
But do you know what we pay money for water?
We understand the water cost money, And yet content is
really undervalued. And I think that's both the best and
worst thing about the Internet. You know, it's democratized who
can make content, which I think is wonderful. I couldn't
have built the media company without the Internet with jas,
but you know I couldn't. I couldn't buy a TV
(37:46):
license or you know, start my own maggae buy a
TV license now exactly, get one for a hundred. But
that's been good. But the bad thing is that people
think that it doesn't take time and effort and expertise
to create good quality Yes, and this.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Is good quality content, really good quality content. This is
if I think about the things that I've got through
Mama mar and I've not been the most avid consumer
of anything online, particularly not through those years of intense
child rearing and stuff and leukemia and all of that.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
So I wasn't. I've just been like, a, how do
you think that that experience of having your eldest get leukemia?
How do you think, because I know you're not a
very online person, No, how do you think it would
have been made either better or worse by having the
internet at that time? Both for community, because I know
(38:43):
a lot of people who've either the loved ones with
cancer of cancer themselves who whether it's group chats, you know,
what was your village through that time, because you're also
to keep it secret.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yes, well secret, not to our friends and not to
our neighbors, and not to in fact, most of the
people in the media knew about it.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I found that extraordinary. Yes, I didn't know about it,
and not that we knew each other well then, but.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
In Melbourne you're in city.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yes, But the fact that the media, particularly the Melbourne media,
knew and it was such an open secret and everybody
kept it quiet for years, I thought was such a
tribute to how you're the esteem in which you're held
in our industry because that was a big story.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
It was a big story, really, and at the time,
I think, I mean talk about hanging by three and
I don't think I had the energy to even address it,
and it was twofold. It was partly that it was
Lewis and eldest son, who was six when he was diagnosed,
and partly it was not our story to tell.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
We were like the custodian of him through this terrible time.
But also I didn't have the energy.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I didn't even have the energy to like sometimes if
I'd bump into someone I saw and they'd go house Lewis,
I didn't even have that. Oh so the thought of
taking then the media aspect of it was completely.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
You had this circle that closed around you. But similar
to you know, so self indulgent me saying I was
so burnt out and it was so hard deciding what
to be called. You had a child that was battling
cancer and you had to turn up at work on
breakfast radio every single day. It's not like you could
say I'm taking a year off. No.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
But also this is why I understand what you're saying
about work. Work is a salvation. Work is a salvation
for us. I mean, yeah, it is for us, and
it was for me, and it just to have a
place where and I didn't tune up every day and
there were a couple of people that were just so fantastic.
Other comedians who were like, call us any time you know,
(40:52):
Mick malloy and Hellia and will be there. They had
your back. Yeah, they were fantastic. I was doing breakfast
Radio with Hughesy in Melbourne at the time, but there
were times when it would be the only time. Sometimes
I'd only get in there once for the week, right,
and it would be the only time in the week
(41:14):
that wasn't about cancer the only time. And so even
though I was a bit wobbly, I was very hollow inside.
But the muscles that you train, and I think this
in life anyway. I always say it to my children.
The muscles that you train will be your strongest muscles.
And because I had been doing breakfast radio for so
(41:34):
many years, and doing breakfast radio you have to wake
up whistling and it's like you coming into the office here.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So my muscles to be optimistic, to be cheerful, to
be funny, yeah, and to be and to enjoy the
world are very strong muscles. And so I get really
annoyed in my household when people are grumpy. I hate
fucking bad mood people. Yep.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
But you're not. That's interesting because the downside of that
is toxic positivity.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
But you're not that. What is toxic positivity?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That's kind of like look at the bright side?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, No, no, I no, I don't
think I'm.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
That it's like forcing everybody to not be able to
experience their full range of emotions. You're not that, because
that can be quite controlling and quite toxic.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
No, but I think it's more about, certainly breakfast radio,
which is probably a metaphor for life. You're waking up
to the world. My job is to give listeners the
gift of faith. Faith in the day, faith that everything
will be all right, Faith that you are not alone
(42:46):
going through this, Faith that once you get out there,
it's going to be great. It'll be fine. It won't
be without challenges, but you're going to be fine because
you've got me, you've got him, we've got us. And
that also things in the world that might be ludicrous,
that might be frightening. If you stop, if you don't
(43:09):
walk in to the dark room with your eyes shut
because you're scared of what you see. But if you open,
actually open your eyes and you look across the room,
there's someone else there, you can turn that moment into
something humorous.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
So who is that for you? If you were out
for everyone during that dark time, who is that for you?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Uh? My mother in law Marie Peter's mum Peter to
a certain extent, But that was also very hard.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
That was you know, a lot of relationships break up. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, and it's instinct also. I'm very you know, cognizant
of the fact we had a good outcome so and
was touching.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, and the people that didn't, the children that fell
along the way? Would you sometimes in breaks just cry
or you would just be in there and you would
be like, right, the shutters are coming up or they're
coming down, but I'm like no.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
In the break, we'd be talking about what was going on.
U's at some point go say how I thinks?
Speaker 1 (44:12):
How's it? Louis? We talk about it? And then you
were just clicking to gear and click out.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Sometimes sometimes it was not not so much clicky, but
you just have to start the scene again, what are
you going to do? Four years? Oh, in my head
it was two four years for boys because of the
lukini he had, because it hides, it hides in the lining,
(44:40):
in the in the spinal cord and in the brain
lining and in boys in the testicles. So for girls
the treatment is some good news. For girls, the treatment's
much shorter the girls. Four years, Yeah, four years, four
years of chema, Yeah, lumber punctures.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
You had more children in that time, didn't you know
I'd had I'd had yarning.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
My youngest was five months old when Lewis was diagnosed,
so we had four under six, And so when Lewis
was diagnosed, I had to stop feeding Yarny obviously our youngest.
And like it was just like our daughter went to
school too soon, because it was like everybody's got to
get out of the house because we're going to be
(45:26):
at the hospital.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Everyone's got to get on with things. Chop chop.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Like. It was a bit like that, and we didn't
mean to be brutal, but it did. There was a
period in which anyone else's ailment a lot of sympathy, Yeah,
because at one stage, Yanni, this is the worst thing
in the world, had a broken wrist for two days
and we didn't realize it because it wasn't lukem Heir
(45:50):
And it was only when Ray came over and she
grabbed him to swing him around by his you know,
grabbed him his hands, swinging in a circle, and he
let out this blood curdling yelp and it had a
broken wrist from where he jumped off the bottom stemp.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And how did you find the because you know, the
squeaky wheel gets the oil, so you know you are
biologically programmed to focus all your attention on the weakest
link and the most vulnerable, which was look for four years. Yes,
So at what point did that stop?
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Like?
Speaker 1 (46:29):
How did you get to the point where you trusted
his recovery and you could look at your other kids
and go mmm, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't like
a click up thing, but how did you navigate that?
Speaker 2 (46:44):
So when Lewis finished treatment, we stopped doing breakfast radio
after twelve years men hughsy and he wanted to do
more stand up, which is the opposite of.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
You know, did you want to keep going? No?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
No, I didn't want to keep going, but I was
happy for him to make the decision. I went unhappy.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Whatever you want, Why didn't you want to keep going?
The money's amazing because I wanted to have a time
at home with yarny apropos boy, school, Yes, exactly, because
he had.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Been like from the womb untimely ripped or from the
boob untimely ripped. And I was always conscious of the
fact that we had this little one who I had
really not got to spend much time with her. If
I did, it was in between hospital visits, and you.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Know, so I took that.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
It turned out to be a year. I didn't know
how long it was going to be. We finished during
breakfast radio had a gorgeous fee well. It was just beautiful,
and I thought it might be forever. You know, when
youry you.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
No, it didn't worry me.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
No, it didn't worry me.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
But you went from making all of this money like
the Breakfast Radio particularly then not so much now, but
then big best and biggest and most high profile job.
You guys were iconic. Yeah, did you feel the need
or you just felt I need to just catch my
breath now, I think so.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
And Peter uttered a phrase which as a modern woman,
I had never heard in my life, and it was
one of the greatest things any man has. It is
the greatest thing any man's ever said to me. He said, darling,
you don't have to work. I can look after both
of us.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
My wowd oh, my god, suck it suck. It's like
so and I remember at the time, had you been
the breadwinner before that, Yeah, you we have a lot
of bread.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, and you need a lot of bread for six people, Yeah,
you do. And so we'd made one of those decisions,
you know, the you know, practical decision that because I
would earn more money than him, that he would.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
So he did that.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Probably he was at home for probably about eighteen months,
and then it just wasn't good for him. It was
never a point of he was never like I don't
want to do this. He was never resentful or whatever.
But I'm just like working man wasn't enough for He
needs to work. Yeah, like a working dog needs to work.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
So I'm working, I need to work. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
So anyway, so it actually gave me the liberty to
say I'm going to be at home.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
I'm going to be at home.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
And it was such a great It only ended up
being one year, and it was a very challenging year
from what I recall, well, because I was at home.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, I was going to stay careful what you wish for?
I was at home?
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Did you feel irrelevant?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I probably felt more irrelevant when we went and lived initially,
when we were in an Italian class and I said,
and I thought, I was so proud with myself. I said,
I I'm Molieria Cassa or whatever. I'm housewife. And if
I said that in Australia, at least a couple of
people in the.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Road last and go, oh yeah, Catlin brook Lod because
they're like, yeah, it wasn't ironic.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
She's a housewife. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Interesting, So that was like a stripping back of ego
because nobody knew you.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That totally very great. I heartily recommend it, heartily. That's
why I do yoga, because I need I need the humiliation.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Yes, that's true. To having teenagers. What do you do
we're having teenager I.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Don't count them.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
I don't count that. I don't count too high. Terrible time. No, yeah,
grown up children, I know, but I just don't. I
can't take that on.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
It's like women, you know, when you go shopping with
a teenage daughter. You see it all the time at
any Westfield and there's a woman with a certain posture
yeah yeah, and the girls with it, and.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I'm just like, what are we doing? You do get
through that, Like I'm now at the point because I
know what you mean.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
I've done.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
I didn't realize that you would ever get through it.
But my daughter, who just turned nineteen, now we can
go shopping and it's delightful. I think our girls are
the same as it's delightful, and I will actually ask
her advice and she'll give it to me without making
me feel like a piece of shit.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah, because I noticed, because I'm always, I think too
maybe too aware of not giving them too much power,
because you don't want to end up being one of
those women whose self esteem has just been totally strip
mind like a sloth scratching at a tree truck. There's
nothing left because they've had years of should I wear this?
(51:44):
And the door's going where the gray one?
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah? No, I can't give away too much. You can't. Can't.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Power is very important, and no matter where you find
that power, like you might be the nurturer, you might
be the cook, you might be the one who's magical
with the grandchildren. You might be doesn't matter. But you
need to have a little patch of territory that's your.
(52:11):
And now I've got your fucking patch of terroritory God,
thank god, no one will try not to break ash.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
You're so good at this. I can't think of anyone
who is going to be better. I can't wait to
be listening every single week. And what an honor to
be your first guest. Literally no one else in the
building anyway. I love you, I love you.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
Enjoy your secret square well and some suns.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
You'll be the first one to know.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
So Maya has left the building and you are now
in my culpable hands.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Come back me. Oh no, she's gone. I'll see you
next week.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
The executive producer of No Filter is Naima Brown, Senior
producer Grace Rouvre, producer Charlie Blackman, Audio production and sound
design by Jacob Brown. And I'm your host Caitline Brook.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hey, out louders, it's Maya here for your out loud
Sunday special.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Now.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I know I've been banging on a little bit on
I feel like I've been banging on about hosting, well,
not hosting No Filter anymore, and passing the mic over
to Kate Langbrook. I spoke about it on last week's show,
the announcement came out, and today I'm excited to share
with you. You might have heard it if you follow
(00:45):
No Filter. If you don't, why don't you? But if
you missed it, Kate's very first episode as a new
host of No Filter, and she's got an amazing guest.
It's a complete exclusive. It's me shocking twist. No one
saw this coming. I was very easy to book. I
want you to also get to know Kate a little
bit because, of course, because it's me, I have to
(01:05):
turn the tables and start asking her questions. She's got
a phenomenal story. Mother of four, Her eldest was diagnosed
with leukemia when he was really little, and she spent
years keeping this out of the public eye and dealing
with that while she had more children, and it's an
amazing story. I absolutely love this woman. I'm practically dry
humping her in the studio. You can hear if you
(01:26):
listen closely. Here is a very special episode of No Filter,
hosted by Kate Langbrook. And for more of Kate and
more of the show, she's got some phenomenal interviews coming up.
Make sure you follow the link in the show notes
and subscribe. Felt like I had no skin, Yeah, you
felt like I was just raw. I was just an
open I was just all Yeah, I had no protection. Yeah,
(01:51):
I was just I was a friggin.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Mess for Mama, Maya.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
This is No Filter.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I'm Kate Langbrook. Yes you are, Yes, I am. I'm
going to introduce Okay, I'm Kate Lanebrook and I'm joined
by someone who when I have listened to No Filter
over the years, I have wanted to talk to this
person more than anybody else. I would like to introduce
(02:30):
my very special guest, Maya Friedman.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I was easy to get.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Wow, you were not easy to get.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Well, that's true. That's also true.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
In fact, part of the reason I think we're sitting
here is that you've been very hard to get.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I like playing hard to get. Yes, we did have
an aborted attempt at this a year ago, didn't we. Yeah,
we did. I've been thinking about that a lot when
I was thinking about today and how this time last
year we sat down before you were going to host
the summer summers edition Summer Season of No Filter, to
see how you liked it, because I needed a rest,
and well, you were hanging by a three, taking you
(03:09):
by thread, and it wasn't, in hindsight, a very good
time to do an interview. And I never sit down
and do long form interviews, so I hadn't for a
long time before that, like years, And I sat down
and you thought it went well.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, it was great. It was absolutely fascinating, youth. I
would call it well at the time as well. Well,
I didn't really think about it a message afterwards. I
tried to cancel a few times. You did try to
cancel anyway.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
This is all boring, but this is all behind the
scenes stuff. But I pulled the pin because it wasn't
When I say it wasn't me at my best. I
just I was a hot mess. And I mean I'm
always a hot mess. But I was in a particularly
fragile state this time last year, and I didn't I
just didn't particularly want to put that out there because
I was still in the middle of being in that
(03:59):
fragile state, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Because you were processing something which I know at the time,
but I could tell when I was talking to you,
And do you remember the question that tricked your trigger?
Do you remember what it was?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I'll say it to you now because because you're in
such a vastly different place I said to you, because
I've been reading your book. I've read your book, and
this was you were on the cusp then of waiting
for strife to come out. So there was a lot
of there were a lot of shadows that came in
with you.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I felt like I had no skin.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, you were.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
I was just raw. I was just an open I
was just all yeah, I had no protection.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, But you were still as you do and as
you have to do. You were still navigating your way
through this world because you've got so many, you know,
plates spinning at all times, and if you drop the plates,
there's a world on each of those plates. So I
get the feeling you're very conscious of not dropping those
(05:05):
plates because you don't want to damage the people that
are on the plates.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
That's very That's such an insightful observation. And you're right.
It's like, I think I probably had some kind of breakdown.
I had a sort of a slow moving, ongoing breakdown
over the last around that time, before that and probably
through to about halfway through this year, which.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Weirdly makes me want to laugh.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well it is, it's like, let's just crack into it. Hey,
we haven't even have no small talk.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well well you may as well laugh. Oh no, but
it is funny.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
It's like, because I had this breakdown and I probably
should have taken myself away somewhere, yes, but I couldn't.
I just couldn't. You Hosting the summer season of No
Filter was the first tentative step that I'd taken from
stepping back from really anything since I wasn't the editor
of MMAMEA anymore. I know. So yeah, it was it was, yeah,
(06:02):
I was just I was a friggin mess.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Because you know, those of us who really just if
we knew nothing about you others and your output, if
we knew nothing other than that, that is extraordinary, and
that is exhausting to think about. So you were exhausted
and this is this is the thing, and I wasn't
(06:24):
doing It wasn't a gotcha, it wasn't whatever. It was
like a genuine because I just wanted to work out
what your driver was, what your engine, what what what
your engine takes. And I said to you, because I'd
read your book, and I said, it's really interesting because
you you we talked about whether or not you ever
(06:45):
reflect on the amazing thing that you've built things and
you said no. And then I said, you know what's
interesting in your book and you talk about work that's
still got to be done and you know what you
could have done better? And I said, but you never
talk about the concept of happiness.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Do you remember that? All I can say I can
feel yeah again, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, And it was just a yeah. And then that
was like, I don't know, It's like someone pulled a
little stitch, the last stitch that you were hanging by,
and then you kind of just unraveled.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
A little bit. Oh yeah, a lot. Yeah, how to
we cry? Yeah, it's true, it's like happiness kind of
doesn't really when you're running a business, it's not. Actually,
that's a luxury that sort of sits on the side
and not to be matter like I also love my work.
I think it would be easier if I didn't. You know,
(07:44):
I didn't If I didn't love my work, I would
go I'm so burnt out, I'm so exhausted, I need
to back away. But firstly, when you've built something in
this size, it's hard to extract yourself. But also I
love it. I love what I do like I love
what I do. And it's a question of working out
when it's time to call time on certainty.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Okay, which has led us to this today. How do
you work that out? Because I mean, you are apparently
the Meya in Mum and Me well I used to be.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I think there's a lot of people who wouldn't even
know who I am anymore, who might experience Muma Mea
through one of our other podcasts, not no filter or
written content or social content that they might consume or something,
and they wouldn't even know, particularly younger people gen z
ds and millennials who wouldn't even know who I was,
which is the way it has always which is what
(08:40):
we've always wanted. Jason and I, Yes, as when we
first started our last seventeen years have been about slowly
backing me out.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's a long that's a long reverse.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
That's long driveway sories. That's when you're back into the
fence many which I've done many times, many many times.
My old producer on No Filter, Eliza Ratliffe, knows that
I've been trying to quit No Filter for two years,
and not because I don't love it, but just be
because it takes a lot, Like it takes a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yes, it's a lot, and for I mean people listening
to it, I think they know intuitively, even if they
haven't thought in a more academic since about how much
it takes that if you're interviewing someone who's got a
body of work, you pay them the courtesy of familiarizing
yourself with their body of work.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Well, that can be books, what is it can be? Yes, yeah,
all the different things and even just getting to understand
who someone is like To prepare for an interview, my
process is just very immersive and I can only do
it within about twenty four hours of actually sitting down
with them.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So because you've done so many new things over the
last I don't know, Like you said, there's a plethora
of new podcasts. It kind of feels like there's another
you're going to another level, which might be the les
which you kind of get to.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I think the business is getting bigger, but I want
to get smaller, right if that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
It does make sense. But do you know how to
do that?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Well, that's what the last sort of eighteen months to
two years has been. It's been setting us up for
Jason and I to be able to accelerate that with us,
like I don't want to completely building, but to go okay,
there wasn't an option until sort of the last eighteen months,
(10:40):
so that it's been finding the right people. A new CEO,
when new chief content officer, we've got a new chief
revenue officer, all these different people to put in to say, okay,
we now feel able to step back further to a
point where we don't have to run the whole thing anymore,
(11:00):
that they can take the baton from us. And you know,
you want to hire people who are smarter than you.
You want to work with people who are smarter than you.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
But after a while, when you've done something for a while,
it's hard to find those people because you've been in the.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Space it's really hard to find those people. And also
I'm free. So you know the reason why I'm like,
oh me, you can do it, me, you can do it. Me,
you can do it, and I'll put up my hand
is that I am free and I'm available of course,
and you know, hiring really good people like you and
other and the executives that we've got and all the
(11:36):
people that work in our business, including our head of content,
that costs a lot of money, and you have to
be you know, people see the front, but they don't know.
You know, it's like the dark gliding across the pond.
They don't see what's going on under the surface. And
there's a lot going on under the surface.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It's like my husband who own nightclubs, and people always think, oh,
you must get cheap booze. You don't, you don't. You
actually can get it cheaper at Dan Murphy's. But also
they don't know about rent and people and insurance and Capra.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And La la la and Nicolas exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
So what okay, So here's the thing with you and
you're seventeen year reversing out.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Of the driveway.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
But because it's not just a business, it's also your family.
So that is just another mind boggle. Like when I
was here yesterday and you were arriving with Luca and
Jesse Jesse, which was gorgeous, And then someone made the joke,
was at Luca that you just derived from the succession helicoptery.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, because it's like it was like we bumped into
each other in the car and they drove in together.
It's like, yeah, it's a family business. Like there's one
hundred and fifty people in it, but Jason and I
are the co founders, Luca is the chief operating and
product officer, and you know my friend and daughter in law, Jesse.
I posted a podcast with her, and so yeah, everyone's
(13:06):
various people are involved in the business. I mean to you,
youngest children just want to get away from it, you know,
if they'll probably get sucked into it too. So yeah,
that that means that it's not a job you can
easily quit.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
But also aside from the job, you've also as a
human and as a woman and as a mother, you've
become a mother in law and that's and a grandmother
and that's all happened at the same time as well.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, and I think that last year was a real
unraveling for me, Like on every level of my identity.
I turned, I turned, how old did I added? Whatever?
I turned fifty fifty three blurred. I became a grandmother.
My eldest son got married, Like all of these things happened.
My youngest child sort of, you know, got beyond that
(13:59):
age where you know, he turned sixteen. So it's like
I officially moved into that age of your kids are
growing up in a way their own families, and what
does that mean? And at the same time, the world
is telling you you're irrelevant, you're invisible, you're a carrying,
your socks are the wrong length, your socks, yeah, you're
(14:20):
a loser, all of those things. And then it's like,
well and then what do you do with your face
and what like? And I just I just lost it,
Like I just felt really it was like you know,
the when you're doing a software upgrade and you get
the like the spinning wheel, right, the wheel was just spinning.
It was like the spinning wheel. It's like it was
(14:41):
before this new phase. I was just really lost. I
was lost at work, I was lost at home. I
was lost in with my place in the world. All
of those things and part of the reason that I
also wanted to find the right person to hand no
Filter over to was I wanted to make some room
creatively to do some other things, and there just wasn't
(15:03):
any room. And I used to think that I could
just take on more and more and more and more.
And last year I realized, oh, I'm breaking, I'm broken,
and I realized that, okay, I can't. So I had
to make some space.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, and how okay. So, in my experience, when you
find yourself in situations like that, if you don't make
the decision, your body will make the decision for you.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
So it's like actors will often say, if they've been
in like a long run of a play, they get
sick on the last night they had their rap party
and then they got their down, So you had to
call it before your body called it.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
My body's tried to call it for a really long time,
like you know. Jason was talking to someone the other
day and said, MAYA has passed the point of burnout
so many times, because it's like it's just not been
an option. So it's been I've gone past burnout, past burnout,
past burnout, past burnout. And I was sick quite a lot.
(16:04):
In twenty twenty four, I just got like you know,
usual winter thing. Lots of people have just got sick.
My immune system has been okay, but I've also been
going through perimenopause and then menopause, and so it's been
all infusing to know what yes, exactly, and I just
I recover very very easily. And I've got a really
(16:24):
big engine, I think because I'm quite also forgetful, and
I just forget that I'm exhausted, Like don't I don't
marinate in things long, like I just slate well really well.
Or what time do you go to bed? I probably
I look at my phone until maybe fifteen seconds before
I'm before I'm asleep, Like I'll just look at it.
(16:47):
I'm not one of those people that need to do
special sleep hygiene and everything. I'm fortunate in that way.
And then I will just literally turn my phone off,
put it on the floor, and within fifteen seconds going
to sleep.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
And how long do you sleep for?
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Probably about seven between six to seven hours. Yeah, I
wake up pretty early.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Do you wake up and you're full of ideas? Or
do you wake up slowly and step into the day.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Oh, I've never been like a jump out of bed person.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
No, but sometimes I wake up and I'm like boo,
and it's like all these things have happened in my sleep.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Oh no, all of those things happen in my way. Yeah, okay,
yeah no. So often, what I've become very aware of
is that I wake up, open my eyes, pick up
my phone, and just saturate myself with stimulation. I think
that's probably what most of us do, and for my brain,
it needs that. But I've also become aware that that's
not a very gentle weight away here. It's not a brutal.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Pretty brutal, particularly if you're looking at news.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know. The first thing I'll do is
look at my WhatsApp and if any of the chats
have gone off, Like you know, sometimes I wake up
and there'll be thirty messages and it might be that
just one of my group chats has gone off overnight
about whatever, but it also could be breaking news that
I've missed because you know, someone else was up before me.
The day starts hard, and then on weekends, Luca brings
(18:11):
over Luna, so you're, yeah, I wake up to her,
you know, I get up and she's she arrives pretty
soon after. So yeah, I'm not. I'm not a sort
of lying around person. Like my brain just goes all
the time, which is exhausting in itself.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So you know how you were saying, Jason said you'd
gone beyond burnout so many times. How did that manifest?
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Then? Great question? Just despair. I think just like cry
most days. Sometimes I'd cry in meetings, which is bad.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Sometimes i would out of just out of just full.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Full, overwhelmed, just overwhelmed, overwhelm, overwhelm, overwhelmed. I'd feel just
overwhelmed a lot of the time. And then I'd have to,
you know, come in here, and I'd lived because I
had to live, sure, But.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And also there's distraction then, and distraction is just so
gratefully received when you're like that.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I love coming in into the office and I love
you know, I love recording the podcast that Mummy are
out loud. And then No Filter would often be a
lot because when you have to meet like the conversations
that you have on this show, not that they're always
bleak or sad, but they're always deep and.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You have to be called no filter correct, So you
have to.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Meet someone there every single time. And it's really intense.
But I have this thing where I'll walk out of
the studio and I won't be able to remember anything.
So my poor producers would like try to sit down
with me afterwards and like what, and I'm like, I
don't remember anything.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
It's like I'm so present at them at that time.
But I've got a very efficient clearing system, like my
hard drives just constantly being deleted, delete, delate, delete.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Where you don't have the storage.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I don't have the storage. So I'll walk out and
then I won't I actually won't ever want to listen
to it again. I want to do won't even talk
about it again. And this show requires a lot of
you know, there's a lot of you've got to take
really good care of the people that you interview, and
you've got to follow through on that process. And I
just wasn't able to do that justice anymore. And I
felt what I love is actually I want to listen
(20:22):
to you interview people like I loved over Summer.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
I love the girl I'm interviewing right now, your love
Mayor Friedman. I know you're desperate to escape, but you
shall not. I know where the exits are yeah, no
you don't. We've changed them. You're staying port.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I think you're the best interviewer in Australia. I think
you are. Oh calm down, you have because you're playful.
Even when we did that interview which we ended up
not publishing, you will so seamlessly because I was being interviewed,
but I was also observing you, not to judge you,
but just because I was interested in your in your practice,
and you did that really tricky thing which you took
(21:10):
me from tears and then you knew exactly when to
just bridge to something funny and we both laughed and
complete gear chack. But you know, it's an interesting it's
really rare. Most people can't do that.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
But in friendships you do it all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
People do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
That's how you get your friends through, and that's how
you navigate those moments.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Where someone's really raw. And then you're like, it's true.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I'm curious about Jay saying you've gone beyond burnout so
many times, and because of your relationship with him as
a husband and a lover.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And a business partner. I know everyone says, I don't
know how you could work with your partner, I never could.
What do you say? I would have said the same thing.
I would have said the same thing. But it wasn't
your intention, was it. It was not my idea and
it was not my intention. But I certainly wouldn't be
here with Mum and MEA wouldn't be what it was. No,
(22:10):
if it wasn't for the two of us, Like he
wouldn't have done it without me, and I certainly wouldn't
have done it without him. And I wasn't. I'd already
been doing it by myself for eighteen months, and i'd,
you know, made no money for eighteen months. I'd built
an audience, but I didn't know how to monetize it.
I didn't have the skills or the bandwidth to do it.
And I didn't have the vision that he did for
(22:31):
the business. It's not I've got a business brain, but
not the big picture business and not the you know,
I can't I won't say I can't read a spreadsheet.
I remember Zoe Foster Blake said to me that when
she first started go to and she has a couple
of business partners co partners, and she said she'd sit
in meetings at first and be like, I don't understand
(22:53):
the numbers, and then she's like, and then I realized
that wasn't cute anymore. I don't do it to be cute.
But I also like, I just can't things that. I mean,
I suppose I could, and she has had to teach herself,
but there's no way I could do what I have
to do if I also had to do the other stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And I'm just not that good at the other stuff. Okay,
but how good are you at being a wife?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Terrible? Of all? Right, so bad, so bad.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Let's just have a moment's pause for PJS.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
He's very He's the nurture in this in our right.
It's not that I don't nurture the kids and I
don't love him. I love him. Maddling. We've just celebrated
our twenty fifth wedding anniversary. How did you celebrate for
the first time? We remembered, Oh, and we went out
to dinner and we've ever done that before. Really, we're
(23:44):
not like that, like when we don't give each other presents.
We're not present people. It's not our love language. We're
real homebodies. We love staying at home. So I often
think that if you've got a certain if every relationship
has a certain amount of petrol in the tank, yes,
until it sort of just runs out. Working together just
(24:04):
you you know, uses up that petrol.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Well, that's why that's why I ask, Yeah, I can't
even conceive of Like earlier last year, I was kind
of in between managers and Peter, my husband who I
also love, who I've been with for twenty one years.
He was kind of helping out for a while, and
it was really terrible. Not because he's terrible, he's really
(24:30):
good at business and he's whatever sexy, but.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
The marrying that, yeah, marrying a thing.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
The fantasy is that you're going to go in like
do you ever go into Jason's office, shut the door
behind you and just kind of take you up, because
that's great.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Can you imagine if we ever like touch each other
in meetings or something, Everyone's like ew, mum and dad, ew. No,
we don't do that. And that's why it's probably been
the best thing for our business and probably the worst
thing for our relationship is being in business. Although I've
also seen relationships where both couples are pulling in different directions.
(25:07):
Either one of them has a big job, or it
doesn't or they've both got big jobs or whatever, and
there's that constant competitiveness of whose job is more important
or whose role is more important.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
And a lot of actors, if actors go out with
other actors, they have a very similar kind of imagine
what that would be like, terrible madness to go out
with them. Yeah, and I think, you know, for us,
we've at least always been pulling in the same direction,
you know, and in that way, it's very efficient. So
we've been able to tag team with kids and with work.
(25:41):
But it means that you can't, like a couple of
years ago, Jase had a or tried to have a
sabbatical for three months, and he could have a sabbatical
from the business, but he couldn't have a sabbatical from
his wife, who is also part of the business.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And so when I would ring him and you know,
want to talk about something or be upset about something
that was really hard. So it's like he couldn't get
away from me and from me. And since we've appointed
a new CEO this year and he has moved into
this role of executive chairman, and he is not we
don't work together day to day anymore. That's been so good.
(26:17):
Oh my god, we've rediscovered each other. Wonderful. Yeah, it's
been wonderful because there.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Are aspects that you I mean, you just can't serve
us all parts at the same time.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
And it's really hard to be in meetings with someone
you know, so like you behave a certain way at home,
and like you know, when you're partner shitting you, you
give them a look across the table or you whatever,
fucked and then we're in meetings and some people here
have been in those meetings, you know, many years ago
when we would have discussions, we'd have Barney's about work,
(26:50):
and they'd be sort of uncomfortable. People get used to
it pretty quickly. But one time I had to say,
you know that other people can see the look that
you're giving me across the table, and he would have
to say the same to me, because you kind of
just forget that you've got to behave in a way
in front of other people. Yes, and it's yeah, it's
really it's been really challenging. But I'm very proud that
we are still married, yes, and that we have continued
(27:14):
to build the business together, and hopefully now that we're
able to you know, bring in new people and take
a step back. It means that we'll be able to
be married again and also just have some space from
each other. Yes, you know, like it's quite nice to
get home and go how is your day and not know, yeah,
(27:36):
you know, that's quite nice looking forward to seeing each other. Okay,
So if your plan is to make some more time
for yourself, really and how do you feel that? And
it's not going to be empty time if I know you? No,
But is that.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Commensurate with what Jace wants for himself as well?
Speaker 1 (27:54):
The difference is that he loves Muma Mia and our
core purpose being to make the world a better place
for women girls actually came from him. I couldn't articulate it,
which is very embarrassing because I'm the writer in the family,
but he was the one, and I remember he wrote
it down on a piece of paper and he's like,
I think it's this, and because I was more just like,
it's the vibe. It's just the women and the vibe,
(28:15):
because I've like it's the water ice wimmen. I couldn't
even articulate it, but he could, so he obviously feels
very strongly about our core purpose, but he's got lots
of interests and hobbies and things that he wants to
do outside of mumamega. We're so well. The problem is
that my hobby is my work, which is I think
being one of the big drivers of Mumma mea. But
(28:36):
it makes it very hard to rest, it really does.
And so for me, the time that I get closest
to resting is I have a day a week with Luna,
which being a grandmother is so different to being a
mother in that you just can be very present because
it's like one day.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
I know people say that, Yeah, I know, I.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Never understood it. Yeah, I don't understand. I still don't
understand that. You know, it is all of the same
amount of love. It's actually really weird because it's all
of the same amount of love, except they don't live
in your house, which is kind of wonderful, but also
you're coming to them devastation every time. But there's no
mental load. There's not one bit of mental load. There's
no guilt, you know, like I'm not like, oh no,
(29:17):
what if she hasn't eaten enough vegetables? Yeah right fake
beans again? Yeah, like she want a bickie? Oh, else,
I just love. It's just love. And it's not like
she stayed the night. She stays night a lot now,
but the first time she stayed the night, and if
she does stay and she wakes up in the night
when she was a little bit younger, and you know
that feeling when your baby wakes up in the night
(29:39):
or you toddally wakes up the night your kid, You've
got like there's a lot of feelings. It's like irritation
and resentment and a bit of panic and what if
this never what if I never sleep?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
But then you're also plased to see them in.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
A weird well yeah, and then I scanned my body
for any feelings of any negative feelings. Not one. It
was just like, yay, I get to sniff a little face,
I get to like give her a little cuddle and
give her a bottle, and you, oh, that's been fraught.
She calls me nana, So I thought I didn't want
to be called nana and whole anxiety, which I think
(30:11):
is really common in people when they become, particularly grandmothers,
because it's about your identity and grandma, like it suddenly
seems very important not to be called nana or grandma,
because I think what it meant for us was a
little old lady with gray hair whose life was over.
And we don't hear like that. I don't think you know,
(30:33):
like me, so I don't really. This is when I
was going through my whole identity crisis. I didn't want
to be that, and so it became very important to
not be called that and to be called maybe me
and me, I would decide, babies decide, don't. Well, she
just didn't call me anything. But what you don't realize
is that, for the first I don't know until they
can talk, it's not about what they call you, or
(30:55):
not about what you call yourself. It's about what everyone
else calls you. Because it's like here, you know, let's
here's nana or here you go to And so every
time they'd say grandma, I die a little bit inside.
And then I just realized, stop sucking making trying to
make me happen. It's not going to happen. But no
one's calling you that. It's like trying to give yourself
a nickname. It doesn't work, yes, And so I just went,
you know, I loved my nana so much. My kids
(31:18):
call my mum Nana. I'm like, I'll be Nana. There's
only two people who could be Nana, and I'll be
one of them. And then I had my latest neuroses
was that she also called Jesse's mum Nana.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh, so how do you different?
Speaker 1 (31:28):
I went into a panic and I'm like, then I
tried to get her a call because Jesse's mum's so
so cruizy, and so I'm like, maybe call her Nan.
And I was trying to control what she called her
and was just like, knock yourself out, whatever you want
me to be called. But now she just I tried
to get her to call and Nan, but she won't,
and so we're both Nana and I'm just like, who
(31:49):
gives a shit?
Speaker 2 (31:50):
And you can tell he well, lots of people.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I said it on out that and lots of it
was very funny conversation. Everyone was telling me how they
they had two nana's, but one was like, Nana Nana.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Husband's got old Nana, We've got old Nana, Lil, We've
got Nana Ree his mum and Marie.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
So kids work it out. I know the difference. But
that speaks to my insecurity because I'm all about leaderboards
and I was worried that I would be low down
on the leaderboard of who she loved. This is how
I think about things.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
Do you think that?
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Because I honestly, if there was anyone to delight a child,
it's your elf and energy. Like seriously, well maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
It's in security. It's insecurity, I guess, But it's also
how I make sense of the world because I'm sort
of chaotic and I need to I like rules and
I like to know where I stand. I like feedback,
I like I like knowing things. So I was very
much well at the top of the leaderboards Jesse and
then Luca, and then Claire, Jesse's twin sister, and then Anne,
(32:54):
Jesse's mum, and then maybe me. Right, so I'm like, okay,
I'm number five. So Anne suggested that I just be
called five, and I was like, I got really upset
about that, and because anyway, it's just I told you,
I've been how two years like it's been, I've been
(33:16):
all over the shop, but I've not known who I am.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think because I've seen you a little bit fleetingly
in those times and always lovely actually, but it's felt
to me like you're rebuilding.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yes, that's exactly right. I could see it like being
in a crystalist. Yeah yeah, yeah, and not that I
was a caterpillar and now in Butterfly. It's not like that,
but it was like it was a different phase of
my life and a different you know, it doesn't You
don't just go from one chapter to the next chapter.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
And transitions are very painful and no matter where they are,
a new job, new, like anything, that's.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Very hard, very leave behind and fear. But stepping into
the unknown is always uncertainty. I'm not good with any
of that. I'm really not good with butriminals face, I don't.
I think most people aren't.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Really. I just think you expect more of you yourself.
I I I get very impatient. I'm like, again, I
know on the side, are we there yet? Are we
there yet? Am I in this new phase yet? Do
I understand who I am?
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yet?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And it was years of not not knowing what I
wanted not knowing, and I just find that very inefficient.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Mayor Friedman, please stay till after this wheat break twisted
my own. I'm just thinking about what you've built, and
I mean you built it for women, women and girls.
But I think the woman, and the girl that you
(34:50):
built it for was yourself. Because do you know what
I mean? If you think about if you think about
the conversations that happen every day and the things that
everyone's exposed to and that you bring to people, and
the little nugget of cheese or the dead mouse that
the cat leaves at the doorstep, all of that that
(35:11):
seems like it might have been for you to find
yourself or to bring something to yourself.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yes, I think because I am so basic, I'm very common,
and I say that in a way like I'm very
i am very ordinary. And the things that I feel
and the things that I'm interested in are not the
things that everybody feels and they're interested in, But a
lot of people feel and are interested in those things too.
(35:41):
So often I'm always an observer of my own behavior,
and I know that when my behavior is shifting from
a consumer point of view, a content more likely that correct.
So like when I didn't know how to start a
business and I started a lady startup, or when I
was interested in perimenopause but there was nothing out there
and it felt very uncool, and we started the very
we did the very Perry summit, and it's kind of like,
(36:03):
what's next, What's next? What is next? I'm working on something. Yeah,
I'm working on a little secret thing. Oh and it's
not secret because I'm being KOI. It's secret because I
just want to see what it is.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Like.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
One of the things I find I'm not suited to
being in a business of this size. I'm just not.
I don't have the patience for it. I don't have
I just I don't want to be in meetings and
I have to go through layers and you need all
of that at a company this size. You need processes
and layers and strategies and schedules. I just want to
(36:41):
work on a little couple of little things and it's
still a bit embryonic. And until it's done, I don't
commercialize it. I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Don't jinx it.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
It's not even jinxing it. It's just that I'll kind
of lose energy for it and lose interest in it
because you know, the economics of making content is that
it'll have to be sold and it will have to
be sponsored, and we'll have to you know, we'll have
to work out when in the schedule it should happen
and blah blah blah, and all of that I completely
(37:13):
understand because I think a lot of people don't get
that content costs money to create.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
You know why now, because we're used to getting it
for nothing. Yes, people don't even buy a newspaper anymore.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
But do you know what we pay money for water?
We understand the water cost money, And yet content is
really undervalued. And I think that's both the best and
worst thing about the Internet. You know, it's democratized who
can make content, which I think is wonderful. I couldn't
have built the media company without the Internet with jas,
but you know I couldn't. I couldn't buy a TV
(37:46):
license or you know, start my own maggae buy a
TV license now exactly, get one for a hundred. But
that's been good. But the bad thing is that people
think that it doesn't take time and effort and expertise
to create good quality Yes, and this.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Is good quality content, really good quality content. This is
if I think about the things that I've got through
Mama mar and I've not been the most avid consumer
of anything online, particularly not through those years of intense
child rearing and stuff and leukemia and all of that.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
So I wasn't. I've just been like, a, how do
you think that that experience of having your eldest get leukemia?
How do you think, because I know you're not a
very online person, No, how do you think it would
have been made either better or worse by having the
internet at that time? Both for community, because I know
(38:43):
a lot of people who've either the loved ones with
cancer of cancer themselves who whether it's group chats, you know,
what was your village through that time, because you're also
to keep it secret.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yes, well secret, not to our friends and not to
our neighbors, and not to in fact, most of the
people in the media knew about it.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I found that extraordinary. Yes, I didn't know about it,
and not that we knew each other well then, but.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
In Melbourne you're in city.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yes, But the fact that the media, particularly the Melbourne media,
knew and it was such an open secret and everybody
kept it quiet for years, I thought was such a
tribute to how you're the esteem in which you're held
in our industry because that was a big story.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
It was a big story, really, and at the time,
I think, I mean talk about hanging by three and
I don't think I had the energy to even address it,
and it was twofold. It was partly that it was
Lewis and eldest son, who was six when he was diagnosed,
and partly it was not our story to tell.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
We were like the custodian of him through this terrible time.
But also I didn't have the energy.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
I didn't even have the energy to like sometimes if
I'd bump into someone I saw and they'd go house Lewis,
I didn't even have that. Oh so the thought of
taking then the media aspect of it was completely.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
You had this circle that closed around you. But similar
to you know, so self indulgent me saying I was
so burnt out and it was so hard deciding what
to be called. You had a child that was battling
cancer and you had to turn up at work on
breakfast radio every single day. It's not like you could
say I'm taking a year off. No.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
But also this is why I understand what you're saying
about work. Work is a salvation. Work is a salvation
for us. I mean, yeah, it is for us, and
it was for me, and it just to have a
place where and I didn't tune up every day and
there were a couple of people that were just so fantastic.
Other comedians who were like, call us any time you know,
(40:52):
Mick malloy and Hellia and will be there. They had
your back. Yeah, they were fantastic. I was doing breakfast
Radio with Hughesy in Melbourne at the time, but there
were times when it would be the only time. Sometimes
I'd only get in there once for the week, right,
and it would be the only time in the week
(41:14):
that wasn't about cancer the only time. And so even
though I was a bit wobbly, I was very hollow inside.
But the muscles that you train, and I think this
in life anyway. I always say it to my children.
The muscles that you train will be your strongest muscles.
And because I had been doing breakfast radio for so
(41:34):
many years, and doing breakfast radio you have to wake
up whistling and it's like you coming into the office here.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So my muscles to be optimistic, to be cheerful, to
be funny, yeah, and to be and to enjoy the
world are very strong muscles. And so I get really
annoyed in my household when people are grumpy. I hate
fucking bad mood people. Yep.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
But you're not. That's interesting because the downside of that
is toxic positivity.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
But you're not that. What is toxic positivity?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That's kind of like look at the bright side?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, No, no, I no, I don't
think I'm.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
That it's like forcing everybody to not be able to
experience their full range of emotions. You're not that, because
that can be quite controlling and quite toxic.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
No, but I think it's more about, certainly breakfast radio,
which is probably a metaphor for life. You're waking up
to the world. My job is to give listeners the
gift of faith. Faith in the day, faith that everything
will be all right, Faith that you are not alone
(42:46):
going through this, Faith that once you get out there,
it's going to be great. It'll be fine. It won't
be without challenges, but you're going to be fine because
you've got me, you've got him, we've got us. And
that also things in the world that might be ludicrous,
that might be frightening. If you stop, if you don't
(43:09):
walk in to the dark room with your eyes shut
because you're scared of what you see. But if you open,
actually open your eyes and you look across the room,
there's someone else there, you can turn that moment into
something humorous.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
So who is that for you? If you were out
for everyone during that dark time, who is that for you?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Uh? My mother in law Marie Peter's mum Peter to
a certain extent, But that was also very hard.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
That was you know, a lot of relationships break up. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, and it's instinct also. I'm very you know, cognizant
of the fact we had a good outcome so and
was touching.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, and the people that didn't, the children that fell
along the way? Would you sometimes in breaks just cry
or you would just be in there and you would
be like, right, the shutters are coming up or they're
coming down, but I'm like no.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
In the break, we'd be talking about what was going on.
U's at some point go say how I thinks?
Speaker 1 (44:12):
How's it? Louis? We talk about it? And then you
were just clicking to gear and click out.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Sometimes sometimes it was not not so much clicky, but
you just have to start the scene again, what are
you going to do? Four years? Oh, in my head
it was two four years for boys because of the
lukini he had, because it hides, it hides in the lining,
(44:40):
in the in the spinal cord and in the brain
lining and in boys in the testicles. So for girls
the treatment is some good news. For girls, the treatment's
much shorter the girls. Four years, Yeah, four years, four
years of chema, Yeah, lumber punctures.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
You had more children in that time, didn't you know
I'd had I'd had yarning.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
My youngest was five months old when Lewis was diagnosed,
so we had four under six, And so when Lewis
was diagnosed, I had to stop feeding Yarny obviously our youngest.
And like it was just like our daughter went to
school too soon, because it was like everybody's got to
get out of the house because we're going to be
(45:26):
at the hospital.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Everyone's got to get on with things. Chop chop.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Like. It was a bit like that, and we didn't
mean to be brutal, but it did. There was a
period in which anyone else's ailment a lot of sympathy, Yeah,
because at one stage, Yanni, this is the worst thing
in the world, had a broken wrist for two days
and we didn't realize it because it wasn't lukem Heir
(45:50):
And it was only when Ray came over and she
grabbed him to swing him around by his you know,
grabbed him his hands, swinging in a circle, and he
let out this blood curdling yelp and it had a
broken wrist from where he jumped off the bottom stemp.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And how did you find the because you know, the
squeaky wheel gets the oil, so you know you are
biologically programmed to focus all your attention on the weakest
link and the most vulnerable, which was look for four years. Yes,
So at what point did that stop?
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Like?
Speaker 1 (46:29):
How did you get to the point where you trusted
his recovery and you could look at your other kids
and go mmm, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't like
a click up thing, but how did you navigate that?
Speaker 2 (46:44):
So when Lewis finished treatment, we stopped doing breakfast radio
after twelve years men hughsy and he wanted to do
more stand up, which is the opposite of.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
You know, did you want to keep going? No?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
No, I didn't want to keep going, but I was
happy for him to make the decision. I went unhappy.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Whatever you want, Why didn't you want to keep going?
The money's amazing because I wanted to have a time
at home with yarny apropos boy, school, Yes, exactly, because
he had.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Been like from the womb untimely ripped or from the
boob untimely ripped. And I was always conscious of the
fact that we had this little one who I had
really not got to spend much time with her. If
I did, it was in between hospital visits, and you.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Know, so I took that.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
It turned out to be a year. I didn't know
how long it was going to be. We finished during
breakfast radio had a gorgeous fee well. It was just beautiful,
and I thought it might be forever. You know, when
youry you.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
No, it didn't worry me.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
No, it didn't worry me.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
But you went from making all of this money like
the Breakfast Radio particularly then not so much now, but
then big best and biggest and most high profile job.
You guys were iconic. Yeah, did you feel the need
or you just felt I need to just catch my
breath now, I think so.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
And Peter uttered a phrase which as a modern woman,
I had never heard in my life, and it was
one of the greatest things any man has. It is
the greatest thing any man's ever said to me. He said, darling,
you don't have to work. I can look after both
of us.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
My wowd oh, my god, suck it suck. It's like
so and I remember at the time, had you been
the breadwinner before that, Yeah, you we have a lot
of bread.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah, and you need a lot of bread for six people, Yeah,
you do. And so we'd made one of those decisions,
you know, the you know, practical decision that because I
would earn more money than him, that he would.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
So he did that.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Probably he was at home for probably about eighteen months,
and then it just wasn't good for him. It was
never a point of he was never like I don't
want to do this. He was never resentful or whatever.
But I'm just like working man wasn't enough for He
needs to work. Yeah, like a working dog needs to work.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
So I'm working, I need to work. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
So anyway, so it actually gave me the liberty to
say I'm going to be at home.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
I'm going to be at home.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
And it was such a great It only ended up
being one year, and it was a very challenging year
from what I recall, well, because I was at home.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, I was going to stay careful what you wish for?
I was at home?
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Did you feel irrelevant?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
I probably felt more irrelevant when we went and lived initially,
when we were in an Italian class and I said,
and I thought, I was so proud with myself. I said,
I I'm Molieria Cassa or whatever. I'm housewife. And if
I said that in Australia, at least a couple of
people in the.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Road last and go, oh yeah, Catlin brook Lod because
they're like, yeah, it wasn't ironic.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
She's a housewife. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
Interesting, So that was like a stripping back of ego
because nobody knew you.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
That totally very great. I heartily recommend it, heartily. That's
why I do yoga, because I need I need the humiliation.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Yes, that's true. To having teenagers. What do you do
we're having teenager I.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Don't count them.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
I don't count that. I don't count too high. Terrible time. No, yeah,
grown up children, I know, but I just don't. I
can't take that on.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
It's like women, you know, when you go shopping with
a teenage daughter. You see it all the time at
any Westfield and there's a woman with a certain posture
yeah yeah, and the girls with it, and.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
I'm just like, what are we doing? You do get
through that, Like I'm now at the point because I
know what you mean.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
I've done.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
I didn't realize that you would ever get through it.
But my daughter, who just turned nineteen, now we can
go shopping and it's delightful. I think our girls are
the same as it's delightful, and I will actually ask
her advice and she'll give it to me without making
me feel like a piece of shit.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah, because I noticed, because I'm always, I think too
maybe too aware of not giving them too much power,
because you don't want to end up being one of
those women whose self esteem has just been totally strip
mind like a sloth scratching at a tree truck. There's
nothing left because they've had years of should I wear this?
(51:44):
And the door's going where the gray one?
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah? No, I can't give away too much. You can't. Can't.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Power is very important, and no matter where you find
that power, like you might be the nurturer, you might
be the cook, you might be the one who's magical
with the grandchildren. You might be doesn't matter. But you
need to have a little patch of territory that's your.
(52:11):
And now I've got your fucking patch of terroritory God,
thank god, no one will try not to break ash.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
You're so good at this. I can't think of anyone
who is going to be better. I can't wait to
be listening every single week. And what an honor to
be your first guest. Literally no one else in the
building anyway. I love you, I love you.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
Enjoy your secret square well and some suns.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
You'll be the first one to know.
Speaker 2 (52:47):
So Maya has left the building and you are now
in my culpable hands.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
Come back me. Oh no, she's gone. I'll see you
next week.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
The executive producer of No Filter is Naima Brown, Senior
producer Grace Rouvre, producer Charlie Blackman, Audio production and sound
design by Jacob Brown. And I'm your host Caitline Brook.
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