Matt Moore (@HPbasketball) Joins For The Great Paul George Debate + Kawhi, Russ and More

Clippers Talk with Adam Auslund as Matt Moore joins the show to follow up on a Paul George debate on leadership and how that relates to Kawhi, the Clippers overall 213 run, Russ and what happens in Denver + favorites/leastfavorites. 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Oh, coome in to Clippers Talk. I'm out a Maslin.
This is episode three of our new YouTube series we're doing.
It's not just on Spotify. iHeart iTunes, especially a podcast anymore.
It's a vodcast. But I'm trying to get this YouTube
off the ground a little bit, and so far we're
like a Boeing plane or something like that. Struggling a
little bit here. But just start this account so you

(00:24):
can get in early on the ground floor. Same with
the Clippers Talk accounts. They're on TikTok, they're on the gram.
You can find me there. I do some fitness stuff
as well, if you're into that. So been doing this
podcast for a few years, just didn't have a vodcast
until now. I'll be doing this live from into it
Dome all season long, bringing you a ton of behind

(00:45):
the scenes stuff, anything you want, social media, live streaming
during the games, behind the scenes, pregame pressers with coach Lou,
all of that. I am active now. As the kids
like to say, coming up on today's show, we'll have
your favorites, your least favorites, a new cap giveaway, the
State of the West Westbrook now with the Denver Nuggets,

(01:07):
Laury Marketing got paid two hundred and forty dollars. He's
staying with Utah. What does that mean for the rest
of the market, Guys that are available out there. We'll
talk about that with our special guests, so let's bring
them in. Joining me today is a senior writer and
host on the Action Network along with Locked on Nuggets.
He's at HP Basketball. That's where you find him. One

(01:28):
of the reasons he's such a great follow is because
he's not afraid to push back. He's not afraid to
get down too the mud a little bit. He's not
as petty as I am, of course nobody is, but
he will give you strong opinions. And that's what we
love about this man. We just happened to disagree about
something that I felt very strongly about recently, so I
called him out. I said, Matt Moore, will you come

(01:49):
on the show, and he said, he's game, And he
is here. Matt Moore at HP Basketball is joining me
here on Clippers Talk a YouTube edition at that match.
Just the fact that you bade here, it's already like
softening my stance, Like I don't know if I could
go that hard anymore on this debate. Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
I didn't come on this show to get softball, man,
come on't. I didn't open up to come on because
I thought it was gonna be easy. It's tough, though, right,
Like everyone gets all riled up on Twitter and on
social media, and we can take these tones with each other.
But when you're looking at each other face to face,
even in the camera, it's like, oh, man, Like it's
just two people talking sports. It's not that big of
a deal. But yeah, come on, we can get into this.

(02:29):
It's okay, Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Now, I can certainly be argumentative and difficult to deal with.
I don't know if this has ever happened to you,
but just recently to me, I happen to be in
a chat where people thought I wasn't and they started
talking about me, not realizing I could see what they
were saying. That's a rough day. That's tough. So I
know how I can be perceived sometimes. But I'm not
opposed to ultimately pointless basketball conversations. We'll make it better

(02:53):
in that. But when people don't want to move an
inch off their position, their committees of dying on that
hill on Twitter. We see it all the time. Now
we're kind of similar, I think in that way. Embrace
debate and you do the research. You're a high level
basketball guy. You know teams, it's not just the Denver Nuggets.
You have a good grasp of what's happening in the

(03:15):
landscape of the NBA, and we kind of take pride
in that. So, being headstrong as we are, it was
only a matter of time where we would start crossing
blades and then cross each other on this path here
on YouTube. So I am excited. Now, I don't want
to relitigate the entire debate we had on Twitter just
about a month ago. It was actually the day that
Paul George ended up signing with the Philadelphia seventy six ers,

(03:36):
or maybe the day before because it happened later that night.
But it started like this, I do have the receipts,
I am. I'm telling you I have, Patty. There are
six pages here about Are you kidding me? This is
how deep we went into it. It started with a
tweet from you at HP Basketball with this one hundred
and fifty thousand followers. Can't believe he's doing me the

(03:57):
favor of coming on, he said, pissing off PG while
Playcating Kawhi at maximum was a missnap. But let's see
if the Clippers pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I responded, saying, asking him to take less than what
Kawai took a misstep, to which you were tweeted you said, yes,
I want to be clear on this. Paul George has
fewer season ending injuries, carries the team more often when

(04:19):
Kauhai is out, is more reliable and communicative with the team.
Kawhi's apex is awesome with a great team around him.
PG does all the other stuff and doesn't get credit
for it. Then things kind of got to the crux
of the issue is I brought up how many games
Kawhi and Paul George are both missed. There's about a
forty game difference between the two, and I would say

(04:40):
when it comes to Kawhi and Paul George, the difference
in high level play between them on the court is
greater than the difference of amount of games missed between
the two in their Clippers' careers so far. But you
point out that Paul George in your opinion, and this
is where I think things got all the rail for

(05:00):
some people that were kind of voyuring the debate going
on on X. You said it goes beyond that stuff
like being a connector being a leader, being someone who
sets the right tone, And that kind of set off
an alarm for me a little bit because it sounds
like you're talking about another guy and I like Paul George.

(05:21):
And even with the B team comment, we'll get into
that probably at some point too. I still like Paul George.
He's a top five all time clipper. I just don't
know if those are where his strengths lie. The floor'sh
hears my friend. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
So I think some of this gets into the complicated
nature of like the arc of this team right where
that twenty twenty team that imploded in the bubble was
so clearly built with guys that didn't trust PG, and
that to me was like where a lot of the
conflict came in, like the chemistry and the lack of
leadership to me, with Lou Williams and Trez really echoed

(05:55):
their lack of faith and confidence and their willingness to
follow behind PG. A lot of this for me comes
down to the fact of, look, I can understand how
good Kawhi is across the board when he's good even
and when he's healthy and when he's good because those
two things are no longer the same, and still be
able to understand that, like Kawhi is he there are

(06:16):
a million anecdotes of him, quote lead by example, not
loud in the locker room, a guy that makes jokes
around the edges at assistant coaches expense these types of
elements versus I have a history of like I've talked
to Paul George and Indiana. I've talked to Paul George
and OKAC, and I've talked to their team, his teammates
in both of those places, and he was a guy

(06:37):
that made locker rooms better, that made teams more connected.
His play style isn't such that it's just like, all right,
let's give them the ball and we'll just wait for
PG to do what he does now. I think it
devolved a little bit that last year because of some
of the challenges that they had with integrating all of
the talent, which to me is like another thing where
I kind of look at TYLERU a little bit sideways
and I'm like, man, what went off the rails here?

(06:58):
I look at Paul George as a guy that does
fill in those gaps. He is a guy that fills
in gaps. He is not the alpha leader, get behind
me guy, but he's also not mister I'll practice when
I want to, when I feel like jumping on the
helicopter to come up from San Diego, Mister I'm gonna
I will determine absolutely everything, and maybe i'll tell you
I'm playing, and maybe i'll tell you fifteen minutes before

(07:20):
I'm gonna show up. And somebody's gotta gotta make up
for that. And I've seen Paul George do that, and
especially to start last season, I just thought he had
an absolutely phenomenal year. Like the start of last season,
I thought that first month or so, I thought he
was honestly the best Clipper. Now Kawhi Went was phenomenal
in the middle of the season before he got hurt, like,
he was absolutely terrific. Was back to looking like And

(07:42):
that was a big reason why I and a lot
of people were like, Hey, the Clippers might actually do
this this time, because it was they were getting so
many good efforts. Harden was doing his best to be
himself but also fit around, fit around the edges. All
that was kind of coming together and if you want
to say, like, look, the team derailed when Kawhi went out,
and if PG was that guy, he would have held

(08:03):
that team up. I don't have a real answer there.
I don't have a real good response for that. And
a lot of fans commented after we got into this
debate about kind of all the things that they had
been indicated by Beat writers throughout the season, and like, look,
I try and keep a close eye on those things
as best I can, but when you're following thirty teams,
you are going to miss things. So I'm open to
the possibility that this, just like this year, he wasn't

(08:24):
that guy, in part because I think of those contract discussions.
But I have to look at the broad spectrum of
Paul George's career and not just this most recent arc
with him with the Clippers in evaluating who he is
as a player in the NBA.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Okay, Well stated, I see your point. I would just
say that when it comes to his Clippers tenure, this
is nothing new for all the good he does on
the court, and they are going to miss him, and
it's very tough to make the argument they're a better
team without Paul George. And I am not doing that.
I'm talking about leadership and what that means and how

(09:04):
he helped in those areas. And to me, you go
back to twenty twenty where you started. Maybe one of
the reasons they didn't trust him as much is because
I don't know, he scored eighteen points per game against
the Dallas Mavericks in that first round. It was a
complete shell of himself and the playoff piece stuff and
pandemic piece stuff was being said. But then the reports
came out after they imploded, where he and Kawhi were

(09:26):
miserable in that Game seven. Kawhi was great for out
that playoff run, Paul George was not at all, but
they were both bad in the Game seven. But afterwards
there was that report out of the Athletic after the
season saying Paul George was trying to rally the troops
and guys were rolling their eyes afterwards, like how is
he the guy trying to get them up and say, hey,

(09:46):
we could do this next year. It's like, dude, you
just played worse than anybody on the team and you
are being paid as much as almost eddieone on the team.
Then afterwards, going into the next season, he talks about
He didn't say he was going to be on his
bully stuff, but he said he was going to be
on mf rs a's I Think or something like that
on the All the Smoke podcasts, which is fine, but

(10:09):
he also said he pointed out that one of the
issues was being in the JJ Reddick role, coming off
a lot of pined downs in Doc's offense, and how
it's going to be different, how he needs the ball
in his hands more with coach lou The problem was
a season later he spoke out about not going the
ball in his hands as much, going to play more

(10:31):
off ball. Didn't like being picked up ninety four feet
by Drew Holliday. Thought he could do it, but then
could it. Thought he could do some of these responsibilities
that are asked of max players, but then realized he couldn't,
just like when he realized when he said on the
JJ Reddick podcast that he's not a number one on
a championship team. Now, when I think of those two things,

(10:52):
I just I have a hard time reconciling that with leadership,
the accountability part, the responsibility of being a MAX player,
of being a top two player on the team, And
it's not just that. I mean when you come out
and this was I think two years ago now so
the start of the twenty two twenty three season, and

(11:13):
say out of nowhere, he could say it was out
of context. At the Philadelphia presser recently, out of nowhere,
he's talking about Lebron and Dwayne Wade coming together with
the Miami Heat. The reporters did not probe him or
ask him this question. We've had multiple guys on top
of to Marizarli, guys who were in the locker room
at that time far about sen Shari. What was the

(11:33):
context of this? And I have a full minute and
a half clip of Paul George saying, I'm the number two.
There's no issue there. I am the number two, not
the one. Be he said, the number two. I'm there
to support Kawhi Leonard. Well, during our debate here, at
one point you had told me the idea was for

(11:57):
them to be equals and partners, not the guy who
who doesn't lead at all be number one and him
be the rabbit. It's like, yeah, it was the idea.
He went away from the idea.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
So I think the problem with that so that I
just I look at that more as and This happens
quite a bit actually with the NBA. Guys are friends
and they want to play together, and then they actually
get into a locker room and they're like, oh, this
is not what I thought it was gonna be. And
I think that when PG kind of signed on, it
was gonna be like me and Kauhi together, both great
players together. And then this is from my perspective, you

(12:30):
can't do that with Kawhi because Kawhi doesn't give anything.
He doesn't give at all. There's no like back and forth,
there's no like how do we figure this out?

Speaker 1 (12:40):
There's just by what, by what paid what examples.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
The thing is that if we kind of look at
the history, if we look at kind of how the
Raptors look like, look at think about the switch from
him from the spurs of the Raptors. Okay, right, The
idea is like it was perfect and seamless, and like
it wasn't It was really fascinating, and I wrote a
lot about it. At the time. They basically had the
Raptors offense, and then section out over here was like

(13:06):
Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard running two man game because
Danny knew all the places where Kawhi liked to get
the ball and just like added that thing on top
of it. There's all of this evidence that Kawhi is
like none of these things. I'm open to the idea
that Paul George wasn't enough of these things that we're
talking about, that he wasn't good enough at these things

(13:26):
that we're talking about. My issue is that, for me,
all of it stems from the identity style and approach
of your best player who can't be your best player
because of his availability, crossed with how he behaves, and
that combination I think causes a lot of problems for
guys like Paul George. I think this is why you

(13:47):
have this like back and forth where it's like he
feels like he gets there and it's like, yeah, it's
gonna be Awhi and PG and then then later it's, oh, no,
I'm the b I'm the number two. I have to
be behind Kawhi because Kawhi can't be any anything else.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Well, no one is telling him to be that guy,
would be my point. Coach Lou talked to him after that.
He has had to talk to him multiple times, like
this year when all of a sudden, Paul George said,
I want to be the glue guy out there and
try to do all the little things. When they got
James hard to just try to make it work after
they had lost five games in a row, to start

(14:21):
things off with James Harden next to those two and
coach Lou has to correct him and say, no, you're
a bad mother effort, You're a badass. You have to
be a number one.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Why do you think he got there? Like, why do
you think that waiting led to him to that point
where he started building? Do you think it's just like
he didn't want it. It was just like too scary,
It was too much pressure for him.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
I think he is noticeably shied away from responsibility and accountability.
I think I think it's very apparent to those who
have paid attention to him. I think a lot of
thunder fans and Indiana fans might say the same thing
in the comment section about Paul George.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
I don'tarily disagree with that. I think the thunder fans might,
But I think I think you're right about Indiana for sure.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
So it's not just an isolated season. It's not just
isolated to the Clippers tenure. It goes back aways with
him as my point. But then you could talk about Kawhi,
but it's it's a little bit deflecting. I mean, I'm
talking about whether or not Paul George is a leader.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
But for me, it's that's the thing is there's poison
in the well. Your best player can't be Kawhi. You're
never gonna have a good enough team structure.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Well, he's won two championships doing that, So.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
I who who whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
Wasn't the best player when he won the first championship?

Speaker 1 (15:30):
He was the best player in the biggest moment.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
No, he was not the best player.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
He wasn't the finals MVP. It's twenty fourteen.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
He was finals MVP. Why did he win that award?

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Is that not the biggest moment?

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Why did he win that award.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Because of his defense and because of what he was
excelling off.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Because they couldn't give it to Lebron and so they
gave it to the guy that only held Lebron to
something ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
So he was only the best player on his team. Sorry,
he wasn't the best player in the series. Is that
your point?

Speaker 2 (15:55):
I don't even think he was the best player on
that team.

Speaker 1 (15:57):
Who was the best player then over him in the
finals for the SPA. Honest, that was doing more impactful.
I think this plus minus was by far the best
of the team.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
But go back and look at the usage.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
The opfensive and defensive ratings for the Spurs in that
finals which he was on the floor. They were like
a plus thirty per one hundred possessions.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
But look but look at how that team was structured,
Look at what that team was great at, look at
how it played.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Even if I wanted to concede that the twenty fourteen finals,
MVP was in fact not the best player on the
team that won the NBA Finals, he obviously was in
twenty nineteen for the Toronto Raptors. Sure, and that was
so we know his style can work.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Whoa if Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson both get severely injured.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yes, there's just not the ultimate super team of all
time to begin.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
With, right, So well, I'm trying to get to here
is that Kawhi is amazing and awesome and a top
ten NBA player, But he has overstated and for some reason,
he avoids all of this criticism that we're talking about here,
all of it. No one comes after him.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
He's got a number of Game.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Seven absolute stinkers on his resume, But Paul George gets
called out for all of his failure.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Kawhi Leonard his last sixty playoff games. Is that fifty
forty ninety splits on thirty points per game.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
That's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
You just said he has. Okay, it's world's apart from
where Paul George is in his playoff career. You could
say the Game seven against the Denver Nuggets was awful.
You can also point out, I don't know, the forty
five and a must win game in the first round
in twenty twenty one on the road against the Dallas
Mavericks when they had the crowd back. They would have
lost that series in the first round. Everybody likes to
talk about Paul George getting them to the Western Conference Finals, if.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
For beating of Dallas Mavericks team you should have never
trailed to in the first place.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
I'm sorry that should have been Did they trail because
Kawhi Leonard wasn't good enough? While putting up shack finals
numbers of efficiency at that sin.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
I know disagree. He was amazing in that series. Man,
I don't disagree.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
So they don't even get to the Western Conference finals
if they don't get out of the first round. Yet
so many people.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Congratulations for getting out of the first round.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
You're talking about Okay, So Paul George getting them to
the Western Conference finals? Have you heard that? I'm sorry,
what Paul George in twenty twenty one getting them to
the Western Conference Finals? Have you heard that argument?

Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Do you think that's accurate? No, that's that's my point,
Like Kauhi was just as much a part of that,
because they don't even make it out of the first
round if he doesn't go MJ three.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Again, we're talking about, like, I'm not arguing that Paul
George is a better player than Kawhi Leonard, right, Like
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
I'm not Like you're saying they're a lot closer than
some people realize, And I would push back heavy against that.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
A better argument is that Paul George has had to
do way more of the work that you would expect
between the two. That's the better way to put this.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
In what way? So this is availability because outside that
on the court.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
They aren't close, in part because of the availability, in
part because of how they play, in part because of
all of these tangible things that we're talking about Paul
George not being good enough at when Kawhi Leonard is.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
A zero on this and when Kaui is on the court,
well he's a zero who's won a championship leading a team.
So I guess, but he wasn't works.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
He came into a team with an existing leadership structure
with Kyle Lowry.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
Yeah, give Kyle Lowry the Finals MVP that made the
shot against I'm.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Not talking about on court. Look, if we're talking about
the actually we're talking about production, efficiency and level of play.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
You're criticizing a guy, though, for his lack of leadership,
who has been the on court leader the best playoff
teams new Being the on.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Court leader doesn't hang hang on. Being the on court
leader doesn't mean scoring the most points.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
My man, we can beaul player on the court.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
We can be more than that.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
It means the most impactful player on the court. I'm
being more than that. It means the most impactful player.
He's the most impactful player by far, the two way superstar.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
So now This is an interesting one. Do you think
that Paul George isn't impactful?

Speaker 1 (20:06):
No, that's not my point.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
Okay, all right, that's fair. I'm not suggesting you are.
I want to clarify.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
So just about five all time clipper. I think he
was a very good clipper.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Now we're just talking about the difference between the two, right,
and we're just talking about trying to trying to figure
out what that gap is between the two, and particularly
we're trying to figure out whether or not Paul George
should have been insulted by how the Clippers approached the contract.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Off, tell me about that. Tell me about that, because
that is where this tweet thread started. Yeah, you thought
they fumbled the bag with Paul George so by offering
him two for sixty. Right, Yeah, so I wrote about this,
except it wasn't two for sixty.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
I wrote about well that was what we had at
the time, right, So I wrote about this at the time,
or I wrote about this over the summer. And one
of the things I have is I don't mind if
you decide you don't want to be in business with
Paul George anymore. If you look at this and you're
just like, look, man, we can't go into the second
aprin like, we can't do this. We cannot hand out
this contract to you. So we can do this, we
can do this other thing. We can manage it this way,
we can go this approach, we can do these things.

(21:04):
We can't get there the minute you decide that, the
minute you to get that to that point, you need
to not extend Kawhi Leonard. You need to immediately be like,
we are tearing this thing down. We are not heading
in that direction. We're tearing this thing down. They could
have traded Kawhi at the deadline and have set themselves
up like had a exciting young team going into into

(21:28):
it and set themselves up really well and then let
Paul walk, let Harden walk started over. But this half
measure to be like, well, no.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
Zero first round picks. This is the way Paul.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Well, that's my point though, how many because the of
the two NBA championships, as the leader on the jeep,
you could get the hall that can replenish some of
those problems for you.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Right, tell me if I'm onto something here. This is
less about Paul George, and you're believing in his leadership,
which has very little little evidence for this is about
Kawhi Leonard. No, I don't think that's I could give
you five reasons about Paul George's leadership not being one
of his strikes.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
But I can also show you that if we look
at that surge in twenty twenty one, would you agree
that more of the guys on that roster were pg's
guys than any other year and that tenure, Because obviously
Reggie was and a lot of those other guys on
that roster really talked highly about PG that season and
out like what he had done that year.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
I could give you quotes about them talking highly about
Kawhi when he was sitting on the bench but still
involved with him and trying to help with the torny
ACL They said he was still leading. Then, I don't
know about this nebulous tangible stuff. I know what happened
out there, Okay. I know you like the numbers and
the analytics.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, if you don't want to have that conversation, then
that's okay. Then if you want to have a conversation
that's strictly based off of the metrics and the on
court play, then I'm totally fine with your position. We
WI don't have any disagreement here. Kauhi is the best player.
You kept the best player. You can build a championship
team around the best player, and Paul George isn't worth
that type of money given his inconsistency and lack of

(23:01):
production in the playoffs. We don't have disagreement on that.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
You still think he has leadership qualities not comparative to
Kawhi Leonard, just isolated to Paul George. You think there
are real measurable leadership qualities from somebody who has consistently
contradicted himself.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
I don't think that he I don't think that this
is as simple as so we make this. We do
this a lot in sports, right where leaders are it's
a binary, it's a one zero, right, you.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Were just doing it with Kawhi.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Well, no, no, Then here's the thing. You have to
be such a zero in these categories based off of
all of the things that have been reported that I
take that consideration.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
But you're not taking into consideration leading by his actions, like,
I don't know what Tim Duncan do.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
You know the last guy I heard, no, do not
do that. Tim Duncan was a vocal leader when he
needed to be He was not a lead by example guy.
Do you want to know who was? Who's a great comparison.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Here, David Robinson who camell No, David was a.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
I know they're a great leader. Kamaral Anthony, he was
the ultimate lead by example guy. It's not a real
thing in the NBA. It's not never has been leading
by example that you know what that is that you're
the best player. So you get tabbed with leadership because
we do this where we take players and we put
all of these other attributes onto them because they're good

(24:21):
at what they do, and that's not an accurate perception.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
All I know is and a bunch of people in
the comments will attest to this. When Kauwhai is not there,
it's like there's not an adult on the court. It's
like guys aren't playing as hard because they know he's
not there.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
But the record doesn't, the record doesn't really indicate that
that's not what the record has. I'll have to pull
it back up. I didn't have it in front of me,
but I did look this up for an article, and like,
the record without Kauwhai is not like they're not a
thirty win team without Kawhi.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
No, they're not a thirty win team without Kawhi. I'm
not making that.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Well, hang on, if there's all this, there's no adult.
Wait wait, wait, you said there's no adult on the floor.
They're totally lost. I know teams that look like that.
I just got through watching about two hours of Portland
Trailblazers filmed this morning. That's what that team looks like.
So why is it that they don't look like a
thirty win team if that's how important?

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Because there's still slightly more talented than the Portland Trailblazers,
and that's a bad example. I They're not gonna be
just fall apart. This seems to that degree they go
from when Kawhi was on the court this past season,
they went from having a defensive rating that would have
been top five in the NBA. So when he's off
the court, bottom five in the NBA. That's how good
he was. And by the way, he was saying all

(25:32):
the things all season long, I'm trying to take this
team to a place they've never been. It just sounded
like more leadership than you're giving him credit for.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
That's really interesting that you think that because I didn't
want to because I want to ask you, kind of separately,
why do you think about Kwai's defense this year? Because
I thought that his strongest moments were absolutely phenomenal, and
then there were a lot of times when I started
to be like, oo, he is a shell of the
guy I knew in twenty seventeen, Like his low points
were rough.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
I thought this was his best defensive year as a Clipper. Okay,
I think it was pretty clear, and the numbers say
so too. When he was on the court, the impact
he had defensively.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Well, when they beat, I love the off You gotta
be a little easy on that.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Okay, they're not perfect defensive metrics. I agree with you,
they're not perfect. But when I match that to the
eye test, even some of the stuff in the way
he was moving in the preseason, I was saying to
myself there was an old line on Friday Night Lights,
I think in season two or something like that, where
it was smashed who hurt his knee and he was
trying out for a college football team, and they said,
it looks like he's never heard his knee at all.

(26:30):
And that's how I felt at times watching Kawhi Leonard
defensively this year. Now, defense is dependent on who's playing
next to you, who's locked in, who's playing well, it's
five guys on a string. One guy can be great
and it really doesn't mean much. You can have a
good point of attack defense if nobody's there protecting the rim,
it really doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
At some point. I mean, we can also kind of
we can also kind of look at this and say, like,
I'm not gonna sit here and say PG was as
good as Kawhi defensively, right, but if we're gonna use
that metric, they were six point eight better with Kauhi
on the floor. They were four point two better with
Paul George.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Were they on the offs?

Speaker 2 (27:06):
That's a meaningful difference.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
What were they on the offs?

Speaker 2 (27:09):
What do you mean? Oh? The ones? Oh it was
one seventeen point nine Kawhi one sixteen point three, So
about one point six points of difference, which is meaningful,
but not like it's not this difference that you're kind
of alluding to.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
So it's about a plus four though net rating than overall.
There the swing with Kauhi on versus off versus Paul
George on versus off.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
I know it's no it's a it's the difference is
four point two to six point eight, so it's two
point six is the on off differential.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
Okay, I'll concede that the difference to me was but
think about it. But I can really specific games here.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
This is telling though. Think about how you thought of
it and then look at the reality, and that's gonna
tell you something, because this is the whole thing is
like you can get caught into re into confirmation bias
and things that reaffirm these things that we want to
believe over and over and over again, just like I
can with Paul George because I wasn't aware before Clippers

(28:06):
fans started sending me clips that there were all these instances,
and like I've definitely taken those the consideration been like, man, yeah,
Paul George can Honestly, it can be kind of dip sometimes,
Like I knew that before from the Paul from the
playoff pie stuff, but like this stuff is very indicative
and like that adds more information here, so like we
don't need to like dig in and then dig in
and then dig in because of defensiveness. We can try

(28:26):
and get a more complete and accurate representation of what
actually has gone.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
On, so it's a minus point. It's six point eight difference.
Kawhi on off three point one difference four point two
Paul George, I should say I over a season, it's
not nothing. But I can also give you actual examples
of defensive acumen with Paul George. With Paul George versus

(28:52):
Kawhi Leonard, Well, they beat Denver for the first time
in two years. Guess so they did. At the end
of the game. It beats the Zubats, who will get
into it a little bit, and Leonard blew up their
pick and roll with I think George wasn't doing that.
That was all Kawhi. Well, let's not act.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Like PG had a bad year defensively, though he.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Had a very inconsistent year.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Oh boy. So the only thing I would say here
is do you think.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
The Clippers ended up ranking defensively?

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I kind of agreed with you in that I thought
that Kawhi's best moments. But here's here's what I think
you're doing. You saw the best moments, and that became
who you think he was the whole year.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
No no, no, no, no, no no.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
And I think that he had some games especially like
it just again, give me those games. I'll I can't
do them here, I'd have to like that's bad podcasting, right,
But I will go on Twitter and I'll try and
find them and I'll try and identify them for you. Okay,
that's fair.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
I'm just saying, overall, we're gonna probably had his best
defensive year as a Clipper. Hey, you always find defensive.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yes, I have a question for you because you talked
about the on offs were the Clippers? Who do you
think that? Do you think the Clippers were better with
Kawhi Leonard or Paul George on the floor in total
net rating?

Speaker 1 (29:59):
I believe it's Paul George.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah. Do you think they were worse with Paul George
on the floor or off the floor or Kawhi Leonard
off the floor?

Speaker 1 (30:07):
I'm going to give you that one. I'm going to
give you that one.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
So that's not a that's not a there, right, It's
that these numbers are really contextual and we have to
like dive in really.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
Game they are. I'm saying, matching the eye test to
the numbers. But overall, it was pretty easy to me
that I would go with kaw Think about.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Where you're starting from. You wanted to see that Kawhi
is the two time NBA Champion, best player in the league,
top five guy, and Paul George he's just a Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
I think.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Saw the data that reaffirmed that position, and we don't
have to do that.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
I love possession to possession every night. There's no Clipper
fan that is going to say that Paul George was
a better defender this season.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
But I didn't. I didn't make that argument.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
And what is the argument because.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
I started saying the point here is that don't use
the data that confirms your belief to be like aha,
because there's gonna be this other data.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
I already admitted that it's complicated with defensive rating stuff.
It's not the end all be all. I completely agree
on that.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
The other thing I would say is I think nighte
to night, I'm just I will say again, I think
Kawai's best moments defensively were among the best of his
career since twenty seventeen, Like he just hasn't been that guy,
Like yeah, I understand. That's part of it for me too,
is like I did I did. I watch every single
defensive possession of Kawhi in twenty seventeen when he was
up for MVP, and I know how amazing he was
that season and the year prior, like it was absolutely absurd.

(31:35):
And so to watch him now, it's like, yeah, he's
so good, he's really good most of the time. But also,
this is not that guy, and that's gonna color my
perception too, because I'm judging him against the past version
of himself, which isn't fair because he's still an elite defender.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
What I would say is, I agree that he can
still get to those levels, but it's less consistently.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, I totally agree.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
I don't think he has some extremely low floor. Ady. Thing,
like you were starting this conversation about Kawai's defense, Well,
we're gonna.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
We're I'm assuming you mean outside of the playoff series
right when he was a shelf because of the injury,
because that was.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
I don't think anyone's evaluating Kawhi Leonard when he probably
shouldn't have been playing on them.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Just making sure because that was Nightmarishley, it was clearly
super hurt, but it was nightmarishly terrible.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
I don't know why you'd bring it up that at
all if you knew he was seriously hurt.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
I'm clarifying that we're talking, we're gonna remove that.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
That's okay, Okay, I didn't insert it to start with,
so I'm not gonna evaluate anyone when they look that
banged up to the point they're swinging on the rim
because they're afraid of the fall that will impact their
knees so bad. But I mean, was.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
From all this conversation, I do want to ask you,
how do you feel about your leader? The number one guy,
clearly the franchise icon, the face of the really, in
my opinion, I don't think Harden isn't even at that
level anymore so the face of the franchise being Kawhi
Leonard at this point, how do you feel about that?

Speaker 1 (32:55):
I think when you said, let me make sure I
get this right, I think when you said that the
issue with the Clippers failing, here's the quote I routinely
see the Clippers fail because of the leadership that comes
with Kawai as the best player is completely inaccurate. Okay,

(33:16):
the Clippers have not failed because of Kawai's leadership. They
have failed because Kawai's health has failed him. And that
is by far the biggest reason that the two pin
to three era did not end with the ring. I
think looking for the intangibles when there's something much more obvious,
like guy tears his acl than his meniscus then last
season has the swelling in his right knee. I think

(33:37):
that is the main issue going on with this team,
unfortunate health.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
That's sure. I don't disagree that that's like the main thing, right.
The problem I think here is but.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
You're saying they're failing because of his leadership. That's what
you said.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Well, listen, can you hear me out? Okay, I just
read it.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
The idea here is that that's not a failure when
you're hurt, when you're players out. The twenty twenty one
Western Conference Finals are not a failure because Kawhi was out. Now,
what I do think is notable is I felt like
that twenty twenty one year was the closest that we
got to an actual synergy and an even partnership between

(34:14):
Kawhi and PG. Did it feel like that to you
or did do you disagree with that assessment.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
The twenty twenty one season. Yeah, I think Nicholas Patoom
did a lot for that locker room. I think Serge
or Baka even being out yep at times, locker locker room,
the familiarity with him and Kawhi Leonard, the vibes were right.
Reggie Jackson was huge for them that season. He played
like a damn all star. When Kawhi went down the playoffs,
that's pg's guy, by the way, and tylu It's Tylo

(34:41):
tylu was the biggest difference for sure.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
I don't even disagree with that. So I thought that
they were gonna I really did think when they were
up against the Jazz, I was like, they're gonna win
the title because I love their matchup versus the Suns,
and I really like their matchup versus the Bucks as
well when really close. But I really think they would have.
I really think they would have gotten there.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Sorry, twenty se words or Clippers win twenty twenty one,
Like I fully believe. If Kawhi doesn't go down get hurt,
then we're talking about this being a successful tenure. Paul
George is probably still here. He's more of a legacy
player because he won them in their first championship.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
He was on that tam yup totally thing. Yeah, it
changes everything. That team was awesome and amazing and to me,
that team was finding the balance between letting Kawhi be
Kawhi and having a more connected identity. A lot of
this for me also is like I've seen these these
combinations of players, these super teams fail so consistently because

(35:33):
of that intangible stuff. It's not about the talent, it's
about all the other stuff. And so when I look
at the Clippers and I look at some of the
of the reasons why they haven't been able to get
where they wanted to go when they've been healthy, why
they haven't been better when they've been healthy, A lot
of it for me has come back to those kind
of identities. And yeah, like that twenty twenty, if we're
going to use these individual moments, I feel like you're

(35:54):
under indexing that twenty twenty, that twenty twenty bubble failure,
because that is a horrific, nightmare failure of epic collapse.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
I said, it was a complete collapse and melt down.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, and so we have to kind of consider that
in the context. And now I don't disagree with you
if you're like, look, it was Dogger Rivers, and I'm
kind of if you say that, I'm gonna be like yeah,
that's fair.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
I'm not putting it all on Doc. However, when you're
putting Montrez Harrel, who just returned to basketball, on the
court next to Nikola Jokic, and people are saying, well,
you know, Yok's gonna score on anyone was a batter,
It's like, well, you're shooting seventy five percent against Montrez
Harral and fifty percent against Visa Zubos. There's a big
difference there.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Totally agree. So the title of thing is actually really
interesting too, because lou is so good in twenty twenty
one and in the prior in the following twenty twenty two,
twenty twenty three, and twenty twenty four seasons.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Tell me about twenty twenty two because you said something
interesting in the comments saying, well, I am going back
on what Paul George did in twenty twenty one and
twenty twenty two on those runs, and I'm thinking there
was no twenty twenty two.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yeah, there was no run. I'm thinking more of the
twenty twenty three.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
He wasn't available in twenty twenty three against Phoenix and
I went down after the first two games. Look, it's
tough to keep there's been a lot of injuries. It
is tough to keep track of everything the Clippers. Trust me,
I have trouble and I followed this team the entire time, right,
So it's brutal.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, and I hear that dynamic in terms of, like
I gett I could have gotten the all the numbers
right on this. What I will say, though, I think
is I think that there's probably something to be said
for the fact. How often is it that the team
is built around Kawhi being number one? You'd agree with that, right,
That's how the team is built, even if even if

(37:37):
Tyleru was like, we got you, you're this guy. The
Kawhi has to has to be Kawhi.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, he does. And as you have said, you believe
they would have won in twenty twenty one with being
Kawhis and the number one to the team.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Totally agree, and you go, what's the issue. I'm not
just spade. I want to be clear on this because
of the things I said earlier about the Kawai's history.
I'm not disputing that Kawhi Leonard can be the best
player championship team. I'm not disputing that at all.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Obviously that's indisputable.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
You wouldn't say that, right, I wouldn't say that.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
But even in this Clippers era and a hypothetical of
him not getting hurt in twenty twenty one, you admit
they would have won the championship. Yes, yes, So was
there something wrong with his leadership? Is there something wrong
with the way the team was built?

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Because in my opinion from where I was at at
that time, Paul George was doing a lot of that work.
That season, he was.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Much better and that was easily his best playoff run
as a clib.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
There you go, and that's like the synergy combination, that
special chemistry that you need. You need someone to do
those things for Kawhi. So Kawhi can go out and
shoot mid range jumpers at an extremely lethal rate.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
I'm still not sure what those things are and how
they translate and if there's anything to actually grasp tangibly there.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Okay, So, as I.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Mentioned, he's flip flopped on rolls. He's contradicted himself with
they get James Harden this year, Well, now we could
do the dirty work, me and Kawhi. Now we can
do all this. After the season, you know, we lost Buttomb,
we lost Roco, We had to do too much a
little thing. I can't tell you you how many times
he has managed its. I love Paul George.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
No you don't. You can admit that. You admit that.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
I think he's a top five clipper of all time.
He's always been one of my favorite players because I
side with two way players. I like those guys. The
dunk on Birdman is legendary and had me out of
my seat and I knew where I was when that happened.
I love Paul George, and again they're going to miss
what he does on the court and I won't. What
I'm saying is when when you're talking about a leader

(39:30):
like that involves responsibility, accountability, that involves not complaining about
He had a clip recently on podcast piece saying, you know,
I got to play defense and play multiple possessions there
and then bring the ball up the court and I'm
tired and he goes. But that's not an excuse, but
it's just where it is. It's like nobody, actually nobody
watched to hear that stuff.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
That's actually more common than you think. But I will
totally no not.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
From players saying it like we know it's tiring, we
know it is but it sounds like you're building an excuse.
We've heard it too many times.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
But why is it only with him?

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Like, why is it because I don't know kwhy doesn't
have a podcast? Kawhi doesn't talk like that in postgame pressers.
He's not the one saying he's the number two. He's
not the one saying they don't have an identity after
they just went twenty six and five, but over a
thirty one game stretch, he's not the one having to
be talked to by coach Lou like Paul George and
all the time Hall of Famer, but he's those strengths.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Did the other thing and now see this thing was
you're right that we've turned it into like Kawhi versus PG.
I think one of the things. And when he was
in Oklahoma City, I did a big sit down interview
with him for his MVP campaign that season, and one
of the things I kind of noticed was like, wow,
like you'll go out and you'll have like these bursts
in these games where you'll score like twelve in a
five minute span, and then the next quarter you will

(40:43):
just have like four assists and kind of blend and
like he talked a lot about that, about how his
game is a lot more driven that way, and I
think that that's part of like what can be frustrating
with him as a number one, B or two or
whatever is that he is a player and this is
on him. This is on him that he is a
player that wants to meld around how around the game flow.

(41:04):
And if you are that level of player, you have
to be a guy who is making that impact on
every single possession, and Kawhi does.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
That where But I completely agree with your point there
and coming off of that campaign, your top three MVP,
your top three Defensive Player of the Year. He made
third team one time as a Clipper. I know some
of that is due to injuries, but the two way superstar,
there are so many peaks and valleys. The roller coaster

(41:33):
you go through to get to his final numbers at
the end of the season is like nothing I've ever seen,
because I honestly think he's probably one of the top
ten most talented players in NBA history talent wise, a
guy with his handle and shooting ability at that height
is so rare. The talent is so tantalizing that it
makes you longing for more from him. And you know,
a victim maybe of his own success to some degree,

(41:55):
but he was billed as a number one. Then he says,
I'm not number one, I'm number.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
When did he say that?

Speaker 1 (42:02):
When was that quote from do you want me to
play it?

Speaker 2 (42:06):
I just need the day, I just need the year.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
I'll tweet it at you, I have my Twitter. It's
I think it was the beginning of last year, so
late two, okay, So that to.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Me is really relevant here. If he had said that
after twenty twenty, I would be a little bit more
in line with you, because what I think, really, I
do think some of this is let's try and give
both players, both players genuinely the most benefit of the
doubt here. I think that he was trying to figure
out how to make it work, just like Kawai was
trying to figure out how to make it work.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
I mean, they won it close to a seven hundred
win percentage when they were both on the floor. It
worked on the floor. There weren't many issues there that
the issue was just having the availability when they can
actually play.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
In my experienced players don't look at it that way though.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Well, I know they know when they're winning games, they
know when they're going on winning streaks. They know when
things are good, when things are clicking. Now, Paul George
did say after this season, a lot of people thought
he was alluding to the fact that he liked playing
off ball much next to James Harden, because he kept saying,
here's another great quote. You know, it's not about winning
a championship so much in my career, And then he
said that was taken out of context too, but he

(43:10):
kept pointing to it's about playing basketball the right way,
and a lot of people inferred from that that is
he talking about James Harden, like, what is going on here?
The ball was in his hands lest meanwhile, he was
Michael Porter Junior on steroids. When they won twenty six
out of thirty one games and Paul George was putting
up some of the highest efficiency numbers of his career,
it was working very well. So maybe you're right. Even

(43:31):
though it was working that well, he didn't like his
role or he didn't see it that way. But that's
the problem. He doesn't like his roles. The number one
he is why it was roles number two? Is he
at number three? Is he a number three now on
a championship team? I don't know. I just know at
his highest level he could be a top ten player
in the league. But from night to night you get
top ten or you get top thirty five player.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
That's fair. You've listed all these quotes. Did you get
the sense that he was always unhappy the last two years?

Speaker 1 (44:00):
I think he he's kind of low key. He's not
a very emotional player. Are sometimes you know, big dunk
on Birdman exceptions like that, big plays, but he is
even keel And this was the first time when he
had that quote this year. In the second half of
the season, after they had that amazing run they blew

(44:20):
out Boston and Boston, everybody was saying, Oh, the Clippers
are ready, this is it. They figured it out. They
went through a bit of a swoon for about a
month and a half and they were about five hundred team.
That's when that quote came out about him talking about
we don't have an identity. He didn't offer any solutions,
and coach Lutherin had to talk to him and actually
said in his press are like, did we have an identity?
When we went twenty six and five in a thirty
one game stretch? So like that stuff to me, I

(44:42):
don't know if that's helpful from your leaders just throwing
out of yourn a oh we don't have an identity,
but not offering anything or just hiving the media that
red meat.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, and I think that's fair, right. And these are
things that were brought up to me where I was like, ooh,
that's not a good look, right. Can we admit that
so much of this is pointing through the prism of
the contract dispute that like, you're probably not on here
basically building a case against Paul George if there's not
the dispute over the money, which caused so much of

(45:11):
the tension, And I would carry through from that and
point out I think a lot of the stuff with
PG this year was built off of that, because once
you start messing with the money, guys brains go haywire.
And that's really consistent.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
I think that would be easier to dismiss his oh
it's contract negotiations weighing on him if he didn't have
so many three week stretches as a Clipper where he's
scoring under twenty points a game, or his efficiency's way down.
He's such a rhythm guy, he's just the highs are
very high and the lows are very low from him
because he won't force it. He won't put up ten

(45:46):
three years. He probably should with the way he shoots
her from the outside.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Yeah, and you feel like it's either.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
In line with how he's been throughout most of his career.
I don't think I can just put it on the contract.
I'm not saying that didn't weigh on him at all.
Obviously it would anyone. But I can't just say, well,
this is a unique situation this year with Paul George.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
This is but we also kind of do end like,
look that we can point some of the advanced metrics,
like he had his highest EPM since twenty nineteen when
he left the when he left the Thunder, he had a.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Really good year because that thirty game stretch he shot
it like fifty to fifty ninety.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
It was insane. But also we just what you agree
with me, Like he started off the season in such
a great place.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
He had a great for I thought you had a
very good first.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
One, and I think that he I think he got
caught very much in a middle spot where he is
a player, Like I said, and this is not you
could just say like he needed to just be aggressive
and just be him. Fit fit out, not fit in
right via Lebron. I think he got really caught when
it was Kawhi and then PG. I think he just
kind of figured out how to play around Kawhi to

(46:48):
a good enough level. And then you add in Harden,
and now there's another dynamic to figure out. And I'm
not the I don't want to use that as an excuse.
It's more of an explanation for why he would talk
about the game the way that he did, versus this
idea that you're kind of presenting here, which is that
he whined, complained and was a locker room problem all year,
which I didn't feel was accurate. But I'm wrong.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
That's a bit of a mischaracteristication. That's a little bit
too strong. No, I'm telling you, I'm telling of leadership stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
I'm telling you I didn't say wine, right, but I'm
telling you that's how like that's what you are giving
me that I'm like, oh, like all of these examples
he said this and this and this and this and
this and this and this and this, like that's giving
me the perception that not only was he not a leader, but.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
That's not that's not just this, I'm going back his
entire Clipper's tenure.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Okay, that is his entire tenure.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
It's he says one thing, he says another. He's talking
on both sides of his mouth while his foot isn't
it at the same time. That's what it feels like.
It is perplexing, And so I think he's a really
nice guy, and sometimes that can work against you because
you're not always as accurate with your words all the time,
and things will be misperceived.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
You know, I totally agree. My question for you, though,
I think here is Okay, to whatever degree Paul George
was not good enough at the role that we're ascribing
to him from a basketball and leadership standpoint, do you
concur with me that somebody's got to do that when
Kawhi Leonard is your best guy? Do you agree with
me on that end.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
That they need more leadership, more of an ass kicker.
I agree with that. I think they missed that when
Patrick Beverley left.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
So that's my vac concern.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
He was also a huge in twenty twenty one. By
the way, when we talk about.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
That year, this might be a good way to kind
of frame it is. I'm not saying Paul George is
an amazing leader. I'm saying Paul George was the one
doing that stuff, because your number one guy is never
gonna do any of it.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
I just don't see any examples of him doing that stuff.
I see the opposite. I've given multiple examples of the opposite.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Well, okay, no, no, no, what let's be clear, let's
be precise here, right, Yeah, you've given examples of a
lack of accountability, which is an element of leadership, but
is not the entirety of what is a very large,
nebulous role. Right.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
Dependability, consistency, having a consistent message. I I don't see
it throughout his clippers tenure. I'm not saying he's, you know,
some terrible guy or not. You're saying.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
You're saying he's not a cancer. He's just not a leader.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
He's exactly. He's not a malcontent, he's not a locker
room cancer. Guys like him and all that, but there's
a difference between that and being the alpha or saying
get behind me or you know, getting everybody in live.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
I don't define leadership that way because that's a little
bit of an outdated model, and one like We've got
a lot of examples of that actually not being great.
In a number of circumstances. It can work, but it
doesn't necessarily work all the time. And there's a lot
of different ways of leadership of the NBA.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
That's what I'm talking about. But the stuff he was
doing kind of flies in the face of leadership.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
As if we take these specific comments as his track
record entirely. I don't disagree.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
So that's all. That's all. I don't see him as
the leader guy. Why is the action guy?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Do you believe I couldn't find any examples throughout the
history of all of his comments or comments from players
of any sort of indication to the contrary.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Of course, you're gonna find players that says it greatly.
Everybody can find teammates that say this. They've brought in
plenty of his favorites to the Clippers to be with him,
to make him as comfortable as possible.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
My only point here is you're using here. I have
pulled these ten things, and this proves why along with
the numbers, and I'm like, well, okay, those are indications
that we need to consider. That's evidence, right, But I'm
not necessarily sure that that we could just sit here
and be like, so case closed. Is that fair? Uh?

Speaker 1 (50:45):
I don't know if any case has ever closed. I
just think there's far more indicators that that's not one
of his strengths, as opposed to he's the leader guy
Coauhi is to do the other stuff and Paul George
does this stuff. I just don't I don't see it
like that at all.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Fair. That's the only fair. This is a good discussion.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
I thought so Emily, I can't believe you came on
for this long.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
And we'll see what happens when Kawhi Leonard is the
only guy that you've got to be able to set
a tone and do all that stuff. We'll see how
that goes.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
See now you're framing it though, and you did this
with the text too. There's only two options. Well, good
luck without Paul George, as if if they brought him back,
A guarantees a championship like we haven't seen the last none.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
That's fair. Like, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
There's a wide spectrum of possibilities, right.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
But man, I will just tell you when you when
I looked at this team and was like, okay, so
who's going to be like the top of this team.
It's Kawhi Laron and James Harden. Oh God, two.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Guys that have never missed the playoffs in their career.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
They're great players, They're phenomenal man, I wrote, I have
watched I have written more on James Harden than I
have on any other player.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
I guess I'm more interested in production efficiency and effectiveness
than the intangibles like leadership.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yeah, I'll be honest with you. So, like, I pay
a lot of attention to that stuff, right, Like I
know you do dig through the numbers. I dig through
the film and ever.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Disagree on anything. I've been following you forever. I have
a great respect for you.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
I try and get the film and the numbers to
match up in a way that I can understand. But
the third component of that is when I started being
in and I'm not in locker room. I don't like
to say that when he's like, well, I'm in locker rooms.
No you're not. You're in the media allowed portion of
the locker room availability. It's not the same thing. But
when you're around teams more, you do get these real
senses of how important that stuff is, at least to them,

(52:27):
And like that's a fascinating question of itself. Is the
stuff as important as they think it is? But I
have to respect the athlete in order to consider and
the coaches I've talked to and how important this stuff is.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Okay, here's a transition, and I'll let you go in
the next five to ten minutes.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
If that's all right, I'm good man, I got you
got time.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Thank you. Russell Westbrook renowned for his leadership. Every guy
wants to play with him. Every guy loves Russell Westbrook.
Paul George campaign to have him in the locker room
after Lawrence Frank clearly came out and said the type
of point guard they were looking for, which Russ didn't
match any of those traits. And then PG said, go

(53:09):
out and get Russ, and they did it for him,
just like they did for multiple guys, John Wall Reggie Jackson,
which did work out. But Russell Westbrook, of course, he's
a winner. Of course, he's an all time great. I
think there is some dispute over whether or not you
can win it at the highest level with his style
of basketball, despite him being well liked, being loved by

(53:32):
everyone in the locker room. And now he's in Denver,
and I have to get your thoughts on what they're
gonna do. I keep joking that Jokic is looking for
a new challenge or something. Russell Westbrook is amazing, but
at this point of his career. He just went eight
to forty two in the last five games of.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
That series against the Dallas Mavericks painful.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
It was the worst five game stretch shooting wise in
playoff history, and they needed him badly. Obviously, Kawhi was
banged up, Paul George's only getting nineteen per game, in
more important, only taking less than sixteen shots, which was
really frustrating because you kind of at least got to
go out shooting and go out firing there. But how
do you think it's going to translate next to Nikolo Jokich.

(54:10):
It's just it feels like a strange fit for a
team that is so in sync with one another and
everyone knowing their roles, and now you have another guy
who has to have the ball in his hands to
really be effective.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
I think that was true a year ago, and this
is proof of how ephemeral chemistry can be. It's just
very difficult. It's so hard. Man Like, you can have
great chemistry one year and fans think, oh, they have
such great chemistry, and then they bring back the same
people and the fans are like, will be the exact
same because they brought back all the same players, And
I'm always like, it's never the same. Everything changes with
how players grow as people, and especially with the money.

(54:45):
That's always a thing that gets in the way of
these teams. With regard to Russ, it's either going to
be the greatest accomplishment of Russ's, Jokic and Malone's careers
for figuring out how to make it work, or this
is going to be a train wreck rolling downhill on fire.
They need Westbrook because they've never had a guy who
will challenge them this way. Jamal Murray needs a guy

(55:09):
to be like, I'm coming at your throat in every
single practice. If you're not good enough, I'll take your
starting spot by sheer force of will. Malone has always struggled,
not always. Malone has the potential to really struggle because
he's a stubborn guy and a fierce competitor, just the
way that Westbrook is, and those two could butt heads,

(55:30):
they could find a kindred spirit in one another, and
that they're so obsessive about winning and doing it their
way and be on the same path. Jokic gets the
best out of everybody, and he's the biggest reason why
Westbrook is endeavored this season. He wanted Westbrook specifically. He
believes in this guy. I think in part because Russ
takes no prisoners, always plays hard, doesn't save himself. He

(55:53):
respects that, admires it, and will try and find ways
to get the best out of him. But at the
core of this is that Russ has never not once not.
We talked about how much PG tries to mold to
the game, and he does it too much. Russ is
the reason those two worked together was because of that dynamic,
because Russ has never melded to anyone his.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Whole thing being a being.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Why not is proof of concept of him always believing
why should I change? Look at the success that I've
had doing it my way, and so I'll just do
it my way. And I thought last season was the
most he's ever tried, especially putting more effort in on
the defensive end and trying at least to not be
as ball dominant when he shared the floor with some

(56:37):
of the other guys that he made small efforts in
those areas, but he's still always gonna be Russ. He's
gonna find a loose ball and he's gonna throw up
a pull up three pointer at the worst possible moment.
He's gonna get downhill in transition and take a pull
up jumper for no apparent reason. When it's the last
shot that he needs to take.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
The guy will go into the fetal position having seen
that shot like he did.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Yes, And so it's is.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
It is.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Going to either be a great success or it is
going to be absolutely terrible, to the point where they
may have to release him just to save the situation
and do it before Christmas. And I don't know which
one it's.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Going to be, do you think, though, Because to me,
he still can be a regular season floor razor. It's
the playoffs where his style of play is exposed more
than ever. Turns out being a ratic when you have
to be more methodical isn't a good mix for playoff basketball.
Couldn't things go well in the regular season, he could
be an innings eter for them, and then they get

(57:38):
to the playoffs and realize, oh, we can't play this
guy twenty to twenty five minutes anymore.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Yeah, I don't think the plan is to play in
twenty twenty five minutes in the playoffs. I think the plan,
I think the plan is really genuinely to give them
a guy who can play ten to fifteen minutes a
night in the playoffs, and I think there's probably a
strong possibility that they're going to lose those minutes and
that he may not be playable. One of the things
that's really important is that when you get to level
to Russ's level, and I mean this in a bad way,

(58:04):
when he's no longer an elite guy and he's down
in here. In this role player territory, there are series
like there's just series where a guy is good and
a guy is bad. Like I thought, he eats the
Zoo Box was so freaking good versus the Mavericks, and
I just was baffled at how they went away from
him after that Game one.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
It's like they wanted Cody Zeller in there instead of
Big Zoo.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
It was just crazy.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
I'm kidding. I'm going back to an old combat He
used to say Cody Zeller was better than Visa zoobots,
but that's a different argument for another thing.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Cody was better at that time, so at this but
with this, I'll just say that I think that Russ
is gonna have series where he's absolutely unplayable. And it
may be as simple as he can play in the
first round and he can't play after that. Maybe it's
he can play in the first two rounds, but he
can't play after that. But there is no expectation of

(58:56):
meat of him being a viable fifteen plus player if
they were to reach the NBA finals. But if they
reach the NBA finals, then guess what, He's helped them
get there, and that's probably a positive here. But yeah,
if they become I'll say this, if they become dependent
on him. Like my real fear is that I don't
necessarily think that Christian Brown's ready for this elevation to
the starting unit. And if Christian Brown goes through a

(59:19):
prolonged shooting struggle where the offense is just not executing
the way it needs to be and Russ is playing
awesome off the bench, there's going to be a start
to be a conversation about should Russ start. And once
you go down that road, the Nuggets ceiling is capped.
So that to me is like a bigger concern. I
agree with you that Russell Westbrook cannot be a significant

(59:39):
key component in a playoff right at this point in
his career.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
So you're going in with this with your eyes open.
I'm guessing all of the Denver Nuggets Nation are following
you in that and understand what they're getting exactly with
Russell Westbrook. Are the rust is?

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Are they already out and about They're already there, They're
all already pushed them your way. Well, it's just funny
because I've seen I've seen them go from like I've
I've been in these conversations from Oklahoma City to Houston
to Washington to the Lakers to the Clippers and now here,
and so it's just like I've like every every beat
writer or blogger or podcaster that I know has has

(01:00:14):
commented to me, like, God, I just hate the Russ stands.
And so what will really be tough is if they
is if he struggles the RUSS fans stands meeting the
Serbian Yokic fans and those two colliding is gonna be
ugly in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Does Russ have brothers like Yokish that'll be in every game?
I hope you don't see anything like that. I'd be
worried for Jamal Murray. He has a bad game. Russell
Westbrook has a good game, and everybody goes, oh, you
see Russell Westbrook should be the number two. Now that's
crazy talk. But I got to ask you about Kobe
Brown with the Clippers because you're a Mizoui guy. Yeah,
what's the ceiling? What's this floor? Who can he be

(01:00:53):
for the Clippers? People have said, oh, he's Draymond Green.
I've mentioned like maybe he's got I don't know, Ryan
Anderson or Born daut type of game, and that's still
probably lofty expectations. But what did you see for him
in college that can translate to the NBA?

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
You know, I think the biggest thing made probably is
that he I think he's got more to show than
what he's been able to kind of illustrate so far.
And I think that he's got a real opportunity. I
think if he can, especially if he can focus on
rebounding like that to me is like a key area
here where like he's just got to become a better
rebounder if he's going to be like an all around player,
because he's gonna have to kind of fill in those
gaps he mentioned those kind of guys and so like,

(01:01:30):
without a consistent jumper, I don't know what is ceiling.
It's gonna be like, I just don't think that he's
ever going to really be able to be a key
component on a team if he's not able to find
that kind of kind of performance. But it starts. I
think with rebounding that he's gonna have to become a
quality rebounder at six seven, and that to me, is
gonna have to be like the starting point for him.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
That's a great point because they have a need at
the four. If they won't collide slotted back in the three,
somebody's got to take that four spot. So he could
have an opportunity this year to really show something quickly.
Marketing gets two hundred and forty million, Does this mean
anything for guys like Zach Levine or who am I

(01:02:06):
thinking of up in Portland right now? And Jeremy Grant
brandon ingram any of those guys. Your teams start to
get desperate knowing that Lawyer market is no longer available.
He can't be traded for another six months, which is
after the trade deadline. So next I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Because I think it kind of comes down to Levine, Ayton,
Grant are all going to be players that are moved
if a team is like if they face injuries or
a start to the season where they're like, we got
to do something. Those are the we got to do
something guys versus market in was like a real upside, like, hey,
we could really invigorate the franchise. The Warriors and Kings
were pursuing those kind of those looks based off of

(01:02:45):
the idea of like, we could take this thing to
an entirely other level. There are guys that you trade
for out of opportunity and there are guys that you
trade for out of desperation. And I think Jeremy Grant, Ayton, Levine, Brandon, Ingram,
I think is a really interesting one in the situation
that they're facing. There is like do you look at
Ingram as a desperation guy or do you look at
Ingram as like an opportunity guy, Because I think he's
firmly in kind of the middle of that kind of

(01:03:07):
of of that line between those two things.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
But there's only twenty seven He's got upside still.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Yeah, Still, so I think there's probably, like, I don't
think there's gonna be a lot of moves between now
and the first month of the season. There's kind of
like these benchmarks that at least the executives have told
me about that the first thirty days is when you're
looking to see like, oh, no, we are not nearly
what we thought we were going to be, and that's
when teams start to shop aggressively. December when they realize

(01:03:35):
that they got to do it now or it's too late,
and then the deadline is more looking forward to the
next year. It's one reason why I think we've seen
slower deadlines as teams are mostly doing all that stuff
in the off season now, so I don't necessarily think
the marketing changes a whole lot, especially because the I
was just confused why anyone was pursuing these talks at all.
Like I'm really confused why the Warriors had this many
conversations about it, because everyone I talked to is like, yeah, no,

(01:03:57):
Ange is just getting the value for him before he
gives him the extension, because that's what you do. It's
like you see what their value is before the extension,
and then you give them the extension, so later you
can go back and say, well, look, before we paid him,
you thought he was this, and now he's a better player.
So even with the money, he's got to be worth this.
You're setting a bar for those types of things. I
never thought Danny Ainge was going to trade market in

(01:04:17):
so I don't necessarily know why marketing going off the
market would change much other than for the Warriors to
maybe make it known we know we don't have enough
right now that we need in order to make a run.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Yeah, market is young enough to where he could still
be in the Jazz's timeline if they figure things out
fast enough here or they have a great asset to
trade down the line. I got one thing to give
out quickly. The second keyword if you're watching this video
and want that into it, Dome Clippers hat of going
there this weekend is home. You put the first keyword
the second keyword in the comments section below. First one

(01:04:49):
was given out last show, and if you are first,
you will win a Clipper's hat and you can get
at me for whatever one do you want at the
Flagship store. Lastly, before we get here, Matt and I
appreciate your time and you have been an absolute star.
I do want to ask you? One of my favorite
segments is favorites. First, one of your favorite things going

(01:05:10):
on right now, whether it's a movie, a TV show,
something you ate, a video game, anything, it could be
that you want to recommend to the audience. And then second,
your least favorite thing. So I'll go first, you get
a little more time to think about it. I'm gonna
say Cobra Kai. The start of season six. I think
it is the final season. The first five episodes not bad.

(01:05:31):
Was I upset that they weren't releasing all of it
at once? Yes, but we got five episodes in and
it started a little bit slow. It got better as
it went along. I'm a sucker for the pettiness and
the juvenile talk in that show and the ass kicking.
I love it, and I'm kind of glad they're actually
dragging it out now because I'll get a little bit
more time. I think it's not going to finish till

(01:05:52):
next year. So that's my favorite right now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Cobra Kai. My favorite will be the dining in Duck,
North Carolina. I went to the Outer Banks for a
nice getaway for a week and I stayed in Southern Shores.
Was about five miles south of Duck, and every restaurant
in Duck was banging, every single one. Crabshacks, great places
up and down. The food was absolutely phenomenal. The seafood

(01:06:17):
was out of this world. In Southern Shores right down
the road, there's a killer ice cream shop next to
a pizza joint called Southern Shorts Pizza, which was phenomenal.
I got away for a little bit, had an Airbnb
on the sound side. It was absolutely terrific.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
So that would be my favorite for this episode sounds lovely.
Least favorite other end of the spectrum. Game of Thrones.
House of the Dragon the last episode of this season
extremely disappointing. After the setup in episode seven or whatever
it was the week before where you see all the
dragons puffing their chest out, they got the Dragons super team,

(01:06:49):
you think it's on, and then they just built everything
up to where you're going to see the battle next year.
I guess in the next season. That was not it
for me. Plus, I don't need to see any more
White Walker stuff. I don't need to hear Winters coming.
They already ruined the ultimate ending. I kind of like
just living in the Game of Thrones world like we
were with House of the Dragons and not thinking about

(01:07:10):
how poorly the show ended initially, but now they're kind
of connecting them too much right now, just bugging me.
So least favorite there, What about you, Matt.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
I'm not a thrones er, so I'm always amused by
watching people go through the roller coaster that life is
being a Thrones er. Mine is a little bit more serious,
and it's gonna be a climate change. I live in
western northern Colorado and last two weeks we've had forest
fires pop up here. We're having the worst forest fires
pretty much every season that we've had ever, it's every
single year it's forest fire, and then the major, major

(01:07:40):
way the last one was the evacuation zone was two
miles from my house and I had to pack up
absolutely everything. Extremely grateful for all the firefighters that helped
combat that thing. It's an incredible job and their resources
and level of work and coordination to go into those
things is absolutely phenomenal. But it's going to continue to
be a huge problem, and I don't think people underderstand

(01:08:00):
how bad this stuff is gonna get. So climate change
leading to forest fires is my least favorite thing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
As if this episode wasn't thought provoking enough. Matt Moore
at HP Basketball is where you find him. I was
lucky for you to be able to do this with
me today, to take the opportunity to take some time
out of your day to do this. You didn't have
to do this. We got into the argument a month ago.
I'm trying to get this YouTube off the ground. I
can't thank you enough, Matt.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Thanks for having me. I will say you got the
better of me. I got I got. I'm like a
fighter that's like that, like goes to the back, like
knows after the fights, like I'm probably gonna lose this
on decision No. I got worked a little bit there.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
I feel the same way. Nobody won. We all it
was the friends we met along the way. It was
that type of show.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
Thanks for having me, man, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
This has been another episode of Clippers Talk. I'm Ada
Moslin until next time, probably coming up later this week,
trying to get Carlo or Brian Seeman on Joseph Ryan
War is coming on next week. Either way, We'll talk
to you then again. Everybody get in the comments section
and thank Matt Moore for coming in into the lines.
And I was like Simba, I wasn't even full grown yet.

(01:09:04):
Love you guys, we'll talk to you next show.