The Facts of CWD with Dr. "Deer" James Kroll & Horace Gore, Legendary Whitetail Biologist - Hour 1

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
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h S. We gain from theWestern Virginia coal mines and the Rocky Mountains

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and the West Brows Shine. Igot a shotgun, a rifle in a
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buck and run a trout line anda country board can to survive. Doctry

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folks, Cantra five hundred. Goodevening, everybody. Jim Straighter here and
welcome to tonight's go I think you'rereally gonna enjoy this. The title of

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the night shows the Facts about ew D. My co host Scott Croner
and I will be interviewing to thenation's leading dear biologists about the myth and
misinformation about CWD chronic wasting disease.We're featuring doctor James Crowe, who's nationally
recognized as Doctor Dear, and HoraceGore, who's legendary biologists, retired head

(02:23):
of the white tail program at TexasParks and Wildlife Department, and he's also
the editor of Texas Trophy Hunter's Journal. Doctor crow is a distinguished graduate of
both Baylor and Texas A and MUniversities. Since nineteen seventy four, he's
been the director of the Institute forWhite Tail Deer Management and Research. His

(02:46):
research institute has been the leader andeverything from traill cameras to food plants to
Dear genetics and behavior. Early on, he learned that involving the public in
management is the keys and s s. Since Sports a Field magazine dubbed him
Doctor Dear decades ago, he hasgrown into that leadership role. In two

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thousand and three, he joined hisNorth American White Tail magazine colleagues in a
new outdoor network show, North Americanwhite Tail TV. Now in its twentieth
season, it's remained one of thenetwork's top shows. Doc lives and works
on his research for selved in theirNacodosius, Texas. In two thousand and

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three, Doc applied mapping skills toprovide significant recovery support efforts for the Shuttle
Columbia disaster, garnering recognition by NASAas providing critical support. In two eleven,
he was appointed by Governor Scott Walkerof Wisconsin as the nation's first Dear

(03:53):
Steward. His assignment was to focuson DNR failures and c D and White
Tail management. Scott, I knowyou're just as excited as I am about
having these two distinguished and knowledgeable biologistson here. No doubt about it.

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The great thing about both these individualsand studying doctor Crow's work is if you've
listened to him and been a studentof him, whether that's known him in
person or from a distance, he'lltell you that there's no magic bullets.
And he's tried to advocate for huntersand so many different ways over fifty plus

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years of experience. And one thingthat makes me really proud about doctor Crow
and and mister Gore is the factthat they're hunters themselves. And I'm sure
doctor Crow and others can attest tothis, but as an individual who's a
little bit younger, it's always goodto know that when we have dear biologists

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or any type of biologists going tobat force when it comes to hunting and
fishing, it's important that I know, and I think others should know that
they're actually in the field hunting andbeing consumpt abusers themselves. And I think
over the next few years we're goingto see a lot of a lot of
change in in CWD and predator aspectsof white tailed deer especially, And we

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have two distinguished guests tonight that willabsolutely blow your mind and feel you full
of facts and not a bunch ofgimmicks. Yes, sir, well that's
very well said, folks. I'mgonna go to a short break here.
The break is presented by sm SMIMarine. Go see them. I'll take
great care of you. Remember younever get soaked by my friends at SMI

(05:49):
Fishing every day when we're back onGymstayer Outdoors and Doctor Crow, I guess
I'm gonna aren't with you here becausewe need to tell folks what is CWD
and where did it come from?Well, CWD is part of a a

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group of diseases known as TSS,which is stands for transmissible spongey form and
cephalopathy, So you can see whythey're called TSS. Most people would be
aware of so called mad cow diseaseor BSc BOVI and sponge form and cephalopathy
back in the eighties in England andthe UK. It's it's an interesting disease

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and that it's not like a virusor like like bacteria. It's a protein.
It's just a protein that normally runsup and down our nervous systems and
it helps us out normally. Butbut for some reason the other the proteins
can become misshapen and they're no longerwater soluble, and they lodge in the

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brain and usually in the brain stem, and just by lodging, they they
eat away. Hence the name transmissiblesponge your farm means it turns your brain
to or parts your brain to switchbees, and then you lose function and
new and new diet. There areseveral of those diseases in humans as well,

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most notably that Chrysfliachu's disease and CORUand some other ones. But they've
been around and known for who haveunown and sheep as scrapey for four hundred
years, so it's not a it'snot an unknown disease, but it's it's
pretty much unknown to most of thegeneral public. Now where it came from.

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We we're talking about chronic waste anddisease. That's an interesting one.
We've been tracing the origin of thatdisease and it all I think no one
will dispute that it goes back tothe to the Colorado State Research pins where
they were cohabiting sheep and deer andelk for a number of years, and

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in nineteen sixty seven they started noticingthat some of their deer those symptoms of
of the and it's pretty well.I don't think anybody could cobute that.
Then what happened there was that theyshipped research facilities state research facilities often do.

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They shipped animals north to Civil Wyomingto that research facility, and the
same thing happened there, and thenfrom there went up into Saskatchewan where the
shipping animals for research. Most interestingly, in two thousand and one, two
thousand and two, it showed upof all places near Madison, Wisconsin,

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about within twenty miles of a placecalled mounts Are. And what's interesting about
that was that the trace back tothe Colorad facilities goes goes back from a
research facility there and Madison, Wisconsin. Uh, that belonged to the University
of Wisconsin. They had a professorthere that was one of the world's authorities

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on TSSE. So that was thefirst location three locations, and and then
from there, uh, it kindof spread to different places around the continental
United States. Yes, sir,and and of course most of the autists
probably are where you were heavily involvedin the management, if you will,

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of of c WD in Wisconsin andsome of the mistakes they were making.
We'll get into that a little laterin the program, Horse, uh,
I know you've got some thoughts aboutthe CWD and and uh I'd like you
to relate them and where it camefrom and speak to well, Jim.

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Sheep have been the agricultural mammal ofof people back to the Bible ages and
when the when the settlers came overhere, when the colonists came over here
in sixteen oh seven, they broughtsheep of them from from England. And

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for a long time even after thecolonists, after the War of the seventeen
seventy six and and the and thecolonists kept moving further west and further west
and further west until they got tothe Mississippi, and then they had lots
of sheep. Sheep. Back inthose days sheep were used for the war

(10:52):
for clothing, and they ate alot of sheep, and so sheep were
a dominant of agricult adustrial animal untilabout eighteen forty. Between forty and sixty
and then people started raising crops insteadof raising sheep. They had crops,

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so they planted and plowed, andthe sheep industry went west across the river
into the Rockies on the other sideof the Rockies to Wyoming, Wisconsin,
Mission and all of those states allthe way to California. And this happened
in the seventy eighteen seventies, eighteensixty seventies, and at one time Texas

(11:37):
was the leading sheep state in thenation with eleven million sheep. The point
I'm trying to make here is thatsheep have always had scrape. He has
a disease and scrape. He hasfollowed sheep all away from it's a thirteen

(12:01):
colonies all away to California and downto Texas. And I want to make
a statement here, and I wantto make sure that I'm gonna ask you
as a question if I made it, both of you, gentlemen, there
is no scientific data whatsoever and nooccurrence whatsoever with people ingesting venison, whether

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it has CWDS, that's ever causedany wanted to be sick, much less
daed correct, Go ahead, goahead, doctor, absolutely correct. There
have been millions of pounds of venisonconsumed. If we just take from nineteen
sixty seven, without a single personever contracting any any condition that even resembles

(12:58):
chronic glation disease or or a TS T SE uh, we can say
the same thing. Horse did agreat job of explaining how sheep gave major
animals in the in the world andin the United States, But how many,
how many pounds of sheep have beeneaten? There's no one has ever

(13:18):
ever come down with it, andscientifically, no one has been able,
even using Frankenstein experiments, been ableto demonstrate that it's commutable to things that
said. You know, yeah,James, you know in text you we
call it America's healthy red meat.Yes, sir, well, and that's

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that's one of the the myths,if you will. Then I wanted to
spel tonight because a lot of folksare under mistaken impression that if a deer
did have CWD. And again we'regoing to talk about the low rate of
incidents and all the aspects of thatthrough the rest of the prom But I
don't know why all these game agencieshonestly or seem to be so scared of

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it that they're getting individuals scared toeat, to meet, or even to
hunt. And in the States wherethey've done some of these draconian measures of
killing off, you know, thousandsand thousands of deer, that raises the
specter of folks thinking well, maybeI shouldn't need that meeting. We can't.
We cannot afford that the economic collapsethat would caused in these game agencies

(14:35):
will be horrible, and that's evidencedby there's been a dropping non resident and
resident license sales in every state that'sUH sounded. These over alarming types of
programs number one and number two.It just doesn't make any sense. I

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mean, we don't want to goaround scaring mothers and mother in laws and
girlfriends that might be cookingness nutritious denisonfor their significant others. I mean,
this is the point of the matter, To the heart of it is,
there's never in all these to yourpoint, millions of people ever been anyone

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sick, much less die from CWD. Jim. When CWD first appeared in
Wisconsin, three talk about to talkabout ethics, Three well known outdoor magazines
published articles claiming that they that threemen had died from eating venison, which

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turned out to be patently fault Andwhen it came we lost probably as much
as twelve percent of our hunters rightaway in Wisconsin, and mothers were standing
on the porches saying, you ain'tbringing that bad meat in here from my
kids to keep my kids. Buthere at the point, there's an important
point. If I wanted to killhunting, eighty percent of which is deer

(16:07):
hunting, I would go about aneffort to convince hunters and the general public
that venison is an unhealthy meat item. Well, and unfortunately, these crazy
articles like zombie deer, some ofthe stuff that's thrown out there, and

(16:27):
really unrealistic fears within some of thesegame agencies about CWD has fostered those kind
of unfounded situations, and I thinkit's it's time to debunk all that,
which is why I'm grateful you gentlemenand addressing it tonight. I'm told that

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the term zombie deer came from Peter, which deprives me a bit. Yeah,
that would not yes, sir,well, uh, doctor Crowell,
there's a two points to CWD thatyou made with me when we were interviewed

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here recently. Do you care toshare those with the audience here before we
go to the break, because hegets at the heart of the matter.
Oh yeah, as horr As lovesto quote me on this, and he
does when it first, when Ifirst, when we when the horrors.
I went up to Wisconsin in twothousand and two. I've somewhat famously said

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that CWD is a problem only ifyou can say yes to the following two
questions. Number one, will itdevastate dear hearts? Number two, can
human beings catch it? The answer, after twenty years is no to both
of those. Well, I can'tunderstand. I don't watch so many of

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these agencies are acting as if itwould destroy their dear hurt because there's no
data. Correct, No, therethere's absolutely not one peer reviewed study that
documents hard decline because of CWD.There are no studies, peer reviewed studies
that document loss of reproduction or recruitmentbecause of CWD. Well, you know,

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James, yep, how did I? How might add the texts?
Quite deil deer population has increased bya half million deer since they discovered WD
in Northville Prestl. Yes. Well, uh, gentlemen, we got about
a minute here. I want toask another quick question. Uh, in

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these agencies that are doing these things, has there any data to show that
stuff like killing off large numbers ofdeer in a ten square mile area,
inviting in sharp shoes and that hasdone one bit as good. Is there
any data that shows that, No, there's not. That probably would take
a longer discussion after the break.Well, that's certainly not a problem.

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That's just one of the things that'sbeen a concern of mine because I've watched
this and covered it as an outdoorjournalist. There's just a whole lot more
questions that need to be answered inregard to these alarm tactics and these knee
jerk ractions to a disease that,again has never been shown to decimate a

(19:41):
dear herd or has never been shownto ever harm any human being that ingested
dear meat with CWD in it.So we got to go to break here,
folks. This break is presented byMASSI Old Properties, Heart Realty.
Check them out at mp H Ar T Realty dot com. All right,

(20:17):
folks, we're back on Jim Spurthe outdoors. Uh, doctor Crow
before the break. Uh, youhad a couple of points you wanted to
make there. Oh, definitely.Uh. When CWD first showed up,
when those those handful of those testedpositive in two thousand, actually two thousand
and one, but they reported earlytwo thousand and two, Uh that the

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hysteria that was generated through media andthe agency was was incredible and hunters are
very you know, are very conservationminded, and they were Wisconsin's hunters were
were worried. Uh that the predictionsone college professor, they're predicted that wait
till they'll be extinct in Wisconsin intwenty years. And uh and so they

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they for the agency proposed an eradicationprogram, believe it or not, and
uh, hors and I went upthere and produced a show for Outdoor Channel.
Actually want a Golden Moose Award forthe show. But uh, it
was horrible. Uh. First ofall, it was it was ill.
It was ill faded. Because there'stwo kinds of diseases out there. One

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is called density dependent uh and COVIDis a beautiful example of it. Uh.
You know, where would you expectthe next outbreak of COVID to be
in Chicago or in you know,some little town with three hundred people.
It would be yes, it wouldbe in the in the big heavy density
of populations because it's it's spread byby people contacting each other in density.

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The other type of disease is calledfrequency dependent diseases. And what that means
is is your chances of getting intoare related to the number of times you're
exposed to it, and not sayanything off color, but STDs are beautiful
examples of frequency dependent diseases. Andit turned out that chrod equation disease is

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a frequency dependent disease. It isharbored everybody. I hear a lot about
bucks, but it's harbored in thedoge groups, who are all related and
they're very social and they do alot of mutual grooming and stuff. So
it's it's in those dough groups.And they so they decided that they were

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gonna, they were gonna they reallywanted to exterminate all the deer in the
what they call the zone, whichis a four counties zone Dane, Iowa,
Richland and Salt counties, and theywere going to exterminate them. And
the positives showed up in winter.By spring they were they had this program
out there and people were out therekilling spotted falls and Morris I had for

(23:00):
him to comment on that. Butthey killed one hundred and seventy two thousand
deer one hundred and seventy two thousanddeer, and you know what happened,
The herd increased. They didn't eradicatethe desease, no food for a few
years. Games start going ahead.Tell about that what we encountered when we

(23:22):
arrived up there, Oh my god, I mean it was it was about
a radical or situations I've ever seen. H people were bringing the d and
r affair. Had seen everybody outin June or July to kill every day.
They saw one. One guy broughtin a phone that weighed about fifty

(23:45):
twelve or thirteen pounds that he hadshot. I had been two with a
thirty all six. That was inJune. I mean, that's kind of
them. That's kind of situation wesaw up there. Everybody had rubber boots
on that they're afraid they're going toget get the disease, rain coats and
rubber boots and putting it, puttingthe deer in an eighteen whiler to hold

(24:10):
them off to some some spot wherethey're going to bury him and go ahead
with that. James, Yeah,they But what's funny is shortly after when
we returned a few years later,they were they were walking around and had
dogs rumming around carcases, and theyweren't wearing all that ppe anymore. Uh.
It was a totally different situation,but it was. It was.

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It was such a fiasco that invery short time the people went to the
legislature and and asked for a review, and the legislature did did an audit
on that program and concluded from itthat it was unsuccessful. They are agreed
to use the word unsuccessful because theagency didn't like the word failed. And

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they co James how much did theyspend? I was like thirty million dollars,
thirty four million money something like that. Yeah, it was a lot
of money, a lot of themfor nothing. Well, gentlemen, if
if I may, that makes aquestion, why are game agencies today,

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knowing what happened in Wisconsin, knowingthat it was a failure. Why are
they persisting in these zones? Werethey announced that if it's found that they're
going to bring in sharpshooters or asscumbersparticipate in this kind of slaughter of the
word and the world was that comingfrom? I have no earthly idea.
If by definition is lunacy, itthere's so many better ways to handle it.

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And then but they continue, theyjust lockstep follow the procedures. Now
now have to be fair. Iread the Kentucky plan and those guys have
taken advantage of some of the someof the stakes people made there. That's
a lot more thought out than Iusually see in US in a CWD response

(26:07):
plan. Okay, you know,James, what I teck with some of
our people down in Texas is there'san ego trip involved in this. There's
a control trip involved in this.They won't they want to have control of
hunters and landowers. That seems tome to be a problem that is in

(26:30):
there. Yeah, I'll jump intheir horses when it When all this showed
up, there had been a previousprejudice among my fellow professional wilife colleagues against
things like seeking, trophy management,God forbid, fencing, all those sorts

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of things. And when CWD showedup, it was a hammer. It
was a hammer that used to stopall the things that they aphorred and didn't
like. And consequently that's these thingsare still there. It's about power,
you know. Uh. COVID taughtus one thing is that one of the
most one of the most scary,endangerous things out there is emergency rule.

(27:15):
Emergency rules suspends the constitutions, andso like in Texas, what have we
had thirteen emergency rules on CFD somethinglike that. Yeah, yeah, there's
there's there's scouting the lagens like itright. Well, you know I smell

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grant money pursued. Here is whatI smell with a lot of these agencies.
And what I mean by that doctorhuge. Uh, there's there's individuals
that will pursue grant moneies by raisingthese huge concerns and spreading misinformation throughout the

(27:57):
hunting public. Oh yeah, it'syou know, no Bucks, no buck
rogers as a as a year scientists. You know, I believe me,
I know how to raise money forresearch if I if I wanted to be
unethical about it. Uh, it'sit's how many masters and doctoral thesis have

(28:18):
been written and done. How manyrecertain million dollars research grants have been awarded
since CWD made its appearance. Now, certainly never against doing research, but
to keep this thing spend up,spun up. Let me let me give
you an example that we found inWisconsin. I told you that the legislature

(28:41):
cut funding. The next year,CWD infection rates went drastically up. Now
that doesn't happen in a year.And what we found out in our investigation
was there was a little bit ofshall we say, manipulation going on in
that. Hey, James, cancan we talk about deir breeders? Deer

(29:06):
bridgers is calling on mind? Sureif you care. To the point being
that all of the states around Texas, New Mexico, Allmark and Sail and
Louisiana, they don't even have aCWD control program. They don't have any
deer breggers. But Texas has alot of deer bridgers. I think we

(29:29):
got about six hundred left out ofthe original thirteen hundred. But the fact
that the deer being held in captivitygives a deer much greater chance, in
my opinion, to get scrapy orCWD are scrapy because they may be pinned

(29:52):
on soil, and if you moveyour deer around sooner or later, you're
going to move a deer in apin that is a GENA type it is
susceptible to scrape it. That's that'smy opinion, James. But oh,
yeah, what do you think?Yeah, great, very possible. And
and there there are several types ofTSS, one of which is spontaneous.

(30:15):
It just comes out of nowhere.Some environmental factor causes the distortion of those
preonce. It's well known that youknow, humans have familial to have infective
and they also have spontaneous So youknow it the battling against or trying to

(30:36):
eradicate a condition, if you so, will you it a condition that that
can be generated by so many factors. I mean now we're now we're seeing
that while hogs can transport pres crows, ravens, raccoons, you know,
people carrying their deer home from huntingsomewhere else, being in the soil,

(31:00):
like you said, after, youknow, it stays in the soil for
a long long time, sort oflike anthrax does. And anyway, it's
it's so complicated it's virtually impossible toeradicate it. Games let's go back to
your two questions. If your twoquestions are no, then the rest of

(31:21):
it, the whole situation is moot. Yes, yes, And about where
it came from and was talking aboutit, we can talk about that all
day long. But that's not theimportant point. Uh. You know,
when people are pointing fingers at eachother, the dear breeder brought it,
you know, these people brought itthat. That's not the point. The
point is how we're dealing with it. We're not going at it from a

(31:44):
management standpoint instead of an eradication standpoint. And we're also not understanding the impact
that the disease has or will nothave on those three those two questions.
Okay, let me go to aquick break here. Fella isn't coming back.
Will continue the discussion. This breakis presented by s and my marine.
There are eleven four hundred Westport Roadjust north of the Snyder. Go

(32:07):
see him and remember you never getsoaked by my friends at SMI spend my
dollar. Holler needs and nobody havegotten the games straw and harsh store,
especially the fact about c w D. Gentlemen, Uh, how could CWD

(32:27):
impact domesticated livestock or other game species? That's a probably a big question in
many people's mouths. The games atabove my head. Go ahead. Well,
first of all, let's take livestock. H They won't. They're not
going to affect livestock. Uh,they're not a single pair reviewed study out

(32:51):
there that shows that livestock can beinfected by it. The other game animals
are only the servants, which isthe deer family. Uh. You know,
it's a good time to bring thisup. Years ago. I was
at a meeting there in Kentucky,and I was very critical. I was

(33:12):
with QDMA. I was very criticalof this mania for elk stocking and a
lot of these places that have Youknow, we've we've subsequently encountered CWD or
recipients of the elk stocking and alot of that elk came from Colorado and
certainly they were not tested. Fora while, their agency people were saying

(33:36):
yes they were testing, that theyweren't. There wasn't a live test at
that time. I don't think therewas anyway. So, but elk is
susceptible the exotic deer or not susceptible, although there is some research at play
and Frankenstein experiments kind of trying toprove that it would be possible for access

(34:00):
deer to come down with CWD.And because there's a lot of dislike for
exotics by the state agency in Texas, so they're they're certainly supporting that kind
of research. When I keep usingthe term Frankenstein experiments, I need to

(34:20):
explain what I'm talking about. We'retalking about taking brain homogenates and things like
that and injecting them into the brainsof living deer. We're talking about taking
feces and forcing them down the throatsof deer and urine down the throats of
deer at at exposure rates that aremultiples, perhaps thousands of times higher than

(34:45):
and than effective infective dose would befor CWD and at all to prove that
it's possible. And in science wedon't there's no such words in our lexicon
as possible. We use probably,we don't use can or may, we
use probable, And it's that's important. And just doing some of these horrible

(35:07):
experiments torture and these animals to seeif it would be possible that they could
come down with diseases. I'm justnot the kind of scientists going to do
that. I understands now lose alot of these people are getting grants to
do that too, think about that. Yeah, well that's that's why.

(35:29):
That's why I raised this issue aboutgrants, and I asked the question,
of course about domesticated livestock, becausewildlife management and farming you're tied it to
hip one way or the other.So I didn't want the farmers out there
to be scared that deer could bespreading this to their cattle, herbs or
their hogs or anything of that nature. Another question, should taxidermers for meat

(35:52):
processors being farmed about any harm totheir health and well being from handling deer
that might have CWD. Uh No, I mean they should be everybody should
be informed, they should be formed. How safe it is what we're taxing,
what tax nervis. The training taxnervers need is is in handling.

(36:15):
Uh. You know what they've gotleft when they when they amount those heads.
They need to dispose of those byproductsuh in a in a good,
in a safe way, because theythey can spread the disease. Uh.
And they're tax nervers out there thatyou know, do tax nery work in
their garage and they throw all stepout of the back back door. That's

(36:38):
I know, I know two atthree of them, James. Yeah,
they're pretty common in Texas. Butthat's the one area that we need to
be real careful from. We Uh, Wisconsin had the legislative authority to distribute,
pay for and distribute disposal units aroundthere around the central zone area.

(37:01):
They never did it. Let's see. But the bottom line is those taxodermis
and meat processes need not fear contactingthe disease. Absolutely not, no fear
of it whatsoever. Very good.Hey, in many ways they would they
would be equal to a deer hunterin the way they handle it. Dere

(37:22):
go on. Deer hunters are notany any way harmed. Well, and
to that point, most of thestates that have had incidences of CWD require
hunters to process that deer and toremove the brain and spinal parts themselves before

(37:44):
bringing them into that state. Sothat's another example of a needless worry,
if you will, for those hunters, taxidermist and meat process So it's uh,
it's just a it's a twisted situationbecause of misinformation. All right,

(38:04):
folks, we've got to go tonews break here. The break is presented
by Boss hild Property's heart Repti.Paul Thomas is the broker. Check him
out at mp H A R Tlptic dot com.