July 18, 2024 • 47 mins
'Heaven is the Feeling One Leaves on Earth.'
Abandoned at Birth. Join me this week on Chatter that Matters for the heart-wrenching and uplifting story of Janet Sherlund, author of Abandoned at Birth: Searching for the Arms That Once Held Me. Janet discusses the profound effects of adoption on her identity and self-esteem, sharing her lifelong quest to reconnect with her birth parents and uncover who she is.
I cried when Janet discovered her adoption details, celebrated her life-changing reunion with her birth father and was sickened by the coldness of her birth mother. I also learned about the critical importance of understanding one's biological roots.
As the episode unfolds, Janet's courage, resilience, and the complexities of love and family will move you. Ending on hope and positivity, this conversation celebrates the bonds that tie us together and the enduring power of understanding where we come from.
This compelling episode will open your heart and touch your soul.
1. My opening
2. [00:01:23]: Janet describes the compulsion to reconnect with her birth mother.
3. [00:01:41]: Janet Sherlund discusses why she wrote her memoir.
4. [00:02:55]: Janet reads the prologue of her book, describing her drive to the adoption agency and her emotions.
5. [00:04:38]: Janet learns important facts from her adoption file.
6. [00:12:39]: Tony and Janet discuss her complicated relationship with her adoptive mother, Audrey.
7. [00:21:28]: Janet talks about the importance of biological roots and the strengths she discovered through her DNA.
8. [00:26:42]: The profound impact of meeting her birth father, Larry, and the unconditional love she experienced.
9. [00:31:07]: Janet explains her ongoing desire to connect with her birth mother and the rejection she felt when the meeting finally happened.
[00:43:22]: Reflections on the lessons from Janet's story, her adoptive and birth parents, and the powerful message about love and identity.
My three takeaways.
To connect with Janet and to buy her book, Abandonedatbirthbook.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
If our life is a symphony and notes, then each of
us is born into a unique melody.
This composition shaped by our heritage, the DNA of our
parents, the arms that first held us.
But what happens when the first notes of our song are a mystery, when the
melody of our beginning is shrouded in silence,
(00:25):
when there's an absence of one crucial chord, the identity of your
birth parents. What reverberates is a childhood where
bedtime stories don't carry the whisper of ancestral tales, or
the family tree begins with your branch? And it's a
reality for millions around the world, a sonnet of
questions woven in the very fabric of their existence. Even if
(00:48):
that child is adopted into a home of love, a sanctuary where, on the
surface, they're much better off, they have safety, security, and possibilities,
What lies underneath is something that could eat away at their self esteem
and identity. Who am I?
And this yearning and ache to unravel the enigma of their origins
(01:08):
never goes away. A desire to know who their birth mother
was, and how she carried you. Was it shame, or did it bring shame, was
it desperation, horrific circumstances,
Was it even a hint of a dream of one day reuniting? It's
almost like this physical drive to reconnect with the birth mother, to
reconnect with the center of your world, the the your whole world at the beginning
(01:30):
of your life. And it's almost this physical compulsion, like,
I need to find her. I need to find her. I need to feel that
connection in order to to finally feel
peace. Joining me today is Janet Sherlund,
who wrote a powerful book titled The Bandit at Birth (01:44):
Searching for the Arms
That Once Held Me. I'm recording this remote, but during my
interview, many times I wish I could held her in my arms, if only
for a moment to take away some of her
pain.
(02:04):
This is chatter that matters with Tony Chapman
presented by RBC.
Janet, Sherlyn, thanks for joining me on Chatter That Matters. Oh, thank you so
much for having me, Toni, and, and for that beautiful introduction.
I'm at a beautiful position in with the podcast that I often get
pitched by publicists. And, and one of my favorite is Simon
(02:27):
Shuster, who's publishing your book. And I
opened yours and I read the prologue, and I
had to keep reading. I absolutely felt like I was in the car
with you that day on that warm
November day, as you say with this bright sun and blue skies.
And I was wondering if you could just read the prologue for my
(02:50):
audience so they can get swept away the way I did.
I drove to the adoption agency on unusually warm November
day, 65 degrees with bright sun and
pure blue skies. Most trees still held their leaves,
the consequence of a warm, wet autumn and the roadside
(03:10):
glowed green and gold with only the occasional streak of orange.
The radio blasted Springsteen, and I drummed to the steering
wheel, my mind wandering with the ease of familiar roads.
The route took me through the town where my husband, Rick, and I had lived
for 30 years and along roads I remembered from my childhood.
Given my destination, the drive through my past was poetic.
(03:35):
Snugged into my seat, sunlight curling around my shoulders,
I was grateful for the opportunity that lay ahead to
read excerpts of my adoption file from 1954.
11 years earlier, I took the same drive to the agency while searching for my
birth parents. Such information hadn't been offered to me then.
(03:55):
But now, many years into a difficult journey, the
compassionate social worker thought it might be helpful. Well,
I had since discovered many facts about my adoption. I was looking
for nuanced details. Did my mother ever hold
me? Have I ever seen her face?
Where was I between my birth and adoption? I
(04:18):
hoped reading specifics would bring an moment of understanding
and prayed for much needed closure. Fortified by all I had
learned over the past decade, I walked into the agency with a
big smile, confident the pages I read today would be the
holy grail, the final piece of the puzzle.
(04:38):
Jennifer, what did you learn that day? Because you're walking
in with just the skip to your step. First
of all, things were real visceral. I mean, holding papers
from 1954, you know, the actual typed pages
and the actual handwritten notes of the social worker in her in
her longhand script, the pages that were
(05:01):
limp or brittle. And and it was like I was transported back
in time to this point of my life that I had
no idea about. You know, I was adopted. I was never told birth stories
or 1st day stories or 1st weeks or month stories. And
and it was like this secret that had been in this in this
file all these years that all these other eyes had seen but mine had
(05:23):
never seen. And, reading
reading the information, especially the descriptions
of me as a baby that were written by other people like
the psychologist doing the developmental tests and
and things was was so shocking first because I had
a different name. I, you know, I think when I was growing up, I thought,
(05:45):
oh, I was adopted. I must have been, you know, baby girl blank
or, you know, and then my parents named me and that was my first identity.
But first to realize and see on official paperwork
that I was someone else. I was, you know,
Linda Lee Jones. It's like, who the hell was Linda Lee
Jones? And but I was really and I was referred to that over and
(06:08):
over and over in the paperwork. And I was referred to as, you know, Shirley
Ann Jones' daughter, Linda Lee. And I'm like, what? Like, what? And it
was it was very profound and really shook me even
though I had some of that information already. But somehow seeing it, holding
it, seeing those external descriptions of
me and seeing this description of this newborn
(06:29):
baby lying there who had mannerisms that I still
have and that people still note that I have was
really shook me to my core. You read a note from your
birth mother, Shirley, that made you feel quite unglued? She
had an unusual level of denial. The the agency kept noting
that. Most of their birth mothers and their normal practices,
(06:53):
included more involvement of the birth mother in the those early in the early
weeks. And she just refused to meet me, to look at me, to
acknowledge me in in any sense. And, you know, when the when
the baffled social worker asked her if I was even real to her, she just
said, frankly, no. And she refused to the whole time
and and she just kept asking in every meeting, when can I send the papers?
(07:14):
When can I send the papers? And and then was relieved to sign them,
you know, after, I was a month in in foster care.
And it was just seeing those names and seeing my connection to
to her to this other identity and sort of understanding that my heritage,
my DNA was real and came from a real person
and that that I was made up of that
(07:38):
person's DNA and not my adopted parents yet, which I knew.
But there was just something so profound about it and and her
denial from the get go was was so painful.
It was it was just like trying to be dismissed and erased. It was
truly abandoned at birth. So I wanna because we have so much ground to
cover in such a short time. So there's gonna be times when I move this
(08:01):
story forward, but now I wanna go back to your childhood because you're adopted
by Audrey and Bob, who have struggled to
conceive their own children. So they built a family of
adopted children, you and 3 siblings. This part I
really felt, the first hug I wanted to give you is you sitting at the
dinner table with your 2 brothers, your sister,
(08:23):
and your parents feeling that you didn't even belong here. This is
almost virtual reality versus the family. Yeah. It was. You know, it's
funny. And back in the day when, no one talked
about those kinds of things, we didn't have concepts of other realities
or, we certainly didn't talk about identity
or even understand DNA and and heritage like we
(08:45):
do now. But even as a child, when I had
no knowledge of of bigger concepts, I'd sit around the
dinner table and you could just feel the separation
between everyone. You know, I was in my own little I call it
genetic dust, but it was just I sat there and mess and each person around
the table was so disconnected. We were all
(09:07):
there participating together, but there's
no connection between any of us, and you just felt it. It was you would
have come to learn is how much blood and cells
are are connecting in ways that we don't even acknowledge in in our
even nowadays and in our culture. There's some kind
of cellular recognition and understanding between family
(09:30):
that goes it's beyond words. It's almost like it like an
animal recognizes its own. I don't know if it's
smell or pheromones. I don't know what it is, but
I was very aware of it even as a child that we each were
just in these, like, separate spaces, separate
pods, and we're just made up of different I didn't know the word for it,
(09:53):
but we were just made up of different DNA. And and you could just feel
that. And it's interesting, you know, when you're, you know, I think every
kid has an imaginary friend. My name was Jacob O'Malley. I've never
told anybody that. I don't even know I don't even know how his name just
came to me. Tell me the story of the the Chinese
princess. Well, I I was a a little girl with a, you know, a
round I had no idea I was of Irish descent. I I just had this
(10:15):
round face and little eyes that smiled into slits when I
smiled, and I had the typical 1950 something, you know,
hairstyle, a little short bob and the bangs cut off in in my
my brown hair by that time. And, I never saw anyone else
I I looked like. And I had this big golden book
of children around the world. And I loved that book and the
(10:38):
illustrations in it. And the illustrations of the the
old Chinese girls were, looked like me. They had
the same hair cut and and the eyes that were as small as mine get
when I smile. And and, you know, I liked their little silk pajama
things they wore and stuff. But those those images
were the more than any I'd seen in real life within my
(10:59):
family or even with other people that we knew, those were the images I thought
I looked most like. So I decided I was a
kidnapped Chinese princess, and I've been brought to America.
But I was sure people were looking for me. The guards of the palace were
gonna come look for me. And the funny thing is for someone who is as
anxious as I was as a child, I didn't feel threatened
(11:21):
by the idea of being found and taken back to China. I
thought that, that would make me feel whole. That, you
know, as long as I was with my and I don't even know how no
one talked about this stuff. This was just so internal and so instinctive. And I
just thought, once I'm with the the the people that brought my my real
biological family, my family of origin, I'm going to feel whole and
(11:43):
safe even if it's, like, in China. So I had no
idea who I was. I was a little Irish girl. I wasn't Chinese, but but
that was my only point of reference.
You know, it's interesting as I read your book and I read every page
how important the father and your, the father that
adopted you were in your life and how
(12:05):
horrible your birth mother and the mother that
adopted. I wanna talk about her first, Audrey, because I I
came to really dislike Audrey. Yeah. 1st, I I I sorta said
she's just a a character in a sitcom. You know? She's misperfectionist,
and everything has to be right, and, you know, she has to steal every scene.
Yeah. But the more we get unpack her first of all, she's one of
(12:28):
the mathematician, a brain, first one of the first women, if not
the first woman, to get her her master's in mathematics or PhD. So I get
her full credit, but as you said, she every you know, if there's water skiing,
she had to win. If it was a family movie, she had to be the
one that was the star. I mean, it was almost like so I said, okay.
I can I can accept the fact that she she needs it? But what really
(12:48):
angered me is a couple things. Your younger brother, Mark,
adopted needs leg braces, and instead of showing empathy,
she was almost embarrassed and just considered vulnerable and weak. Yeah. Yeah. It
was it was funny. My my sister-in-law, I was talking about she had just read
the book, and called to talk about it. And we
(13:08):
were talking about Mark, and and he was the child she had the softest spot
for. But it wasn't a spot of respect.
I think it was love to the extent that she could, but it was more
this. She saw him as as weak. I think his
whole life, you know, she she didn't like my older brother, probably a
(13:28):
younger sister. She was ashamed of them. They they weren't living up to her
standards. And and as I said, I was the one who and I was so
desperate for love. I just made myself be whatever she wanted
me to be. Well, let's talk about your other brother for a sec, Eric. I
mean, he's a rebel. He's a he's a troublemaker. And you
overhear your mom saying to her friend, thank heavens he
(13:50):
isn't from me. Yeah. Now that and that is that sums up my
mother. I mean, it was really sad and and poor Eric had been,
you know, he had had so much loss by the time they adopted him. He'd
been through 2 different foster homes. His birth mother and
grandmother visited with him repeatedly through the 9 months
before he was adopted, hoping to to keep him and ultimately
(14:12):
couldn't. But he had had 2 different foster placements.
And, you know, by the time he came to my parents, he he must have
been so confused and so distrustful of attachment
and certainly hadn't had that, you know, what he needed as
an infant. And so I think I think that formed him for the rest of
his life. I think, you know, he would do anything for anybody. He he
(14:33):
grew up to be a guy that would just help anybody and always wanted to
be the friend of everyone and do everything. But, you know, his reaction
to adoption, which is typical of half the adoptees, is that he
would act out and I think test the limits. Like, is this gonna be another
family that leaves me? And because he
acted out and he didn't like school and he he was
(14:54):
a rebel. I mean, he embarrassed my my mother. I mean, she was such
a tightly wound, you know, had
to be perfection, had to be the a plus student in every way that
that really upset her. And, my younger sister had that same kind of
personality and Why did you think she had children? Because she wasn't
was it just because it completed the picture that she wanted everybody
(15:17):
to think that they were the perfect nuclear family because it Yeah. It just
strikes me and and, you know, we're gonna move the story on. But she
through the entire book, every time she comes back, there doesn't seem to be
even any softening. Even when she's writing
her obituary near dad's, it's all about her
and how she's gonna be perceived. It was striking, but I wanna now move to
(15:39):
your dad because you love this guy. Yeah. Share a
story that you just felt that when he was around,
he was as happy to have you as you were to have him. He was.
And I I think the thing that most speaks to my father
is what he told me when I was a young girl and I I asked
him if he believed in in heaven. And he went to church in every
(16:03):
Sunday and sang in the choir and all that. I I, you know, he certainly
was a religious man and I I I asked him about, do you believe in
heaven? Thinking he'd give me some, you know, religious answer.
But instead, he just looked at me and he smiled and he said, I
believe heaven is the feeling you leave in other people while
you're while you're still here on this earth. That's the
(16:24):
way he lived his life. And when he died at age 96
and every note or letter we received spoke
to that, how dad made everyone that he spoke
with feel respected and appreciated and elevated.
And they all spoke about his sense of humor. He had a very dry,
witty Minnesota, Scandinavian sense of humor. But
(16:46):
it is that that's how he lived his life and that's what I
patterned myself after. That's what I chose to pattern myself after
because I I just loved that answer. And I was so happy that
he shared that with me. I thought that was a very grown up thing to
tell a little child, and it wasn't, you know, a storybook thing. It
was how he really felt and lived. So I guess gonna just touch
(17:08):
on 3 boys in your life before you end up meeting the love
of your life, but match your first love. And I feel so sorry for
you because this you know, even though I I don't think he really made your
heart beat, he was a convenient relationship, and then he turns violent
on you one day. And thankfully, you got out of that situation because
Yeah. A lot of people don't. They start blaming themselves. And so I
(17:30):
I give you that, and then Greg comes along who's who should be in in
jail, but one night date assault, gets you drunk.
Yeah. You know? And then Lonnie, when you're at Colgate University, is this
you know, was somebody you really started getting great at connecting Schnau, but he was
more of a bohemian free spirit versus somebody who wanted to commit. How did
you deal with those three relationships? Because you're already you've got a lot
(17:51):
of anxiety as a child. You you've experienced panic attacks. There's a lot
of things happening. And, you know, almost like you said about your older
brother, what did you just feel like the rug was always being pulled underneath you
that that that you're never gonna be able to plant roots? A lot of
adoptees have trouble with trust, with intimacy,
and it's and I I could see how that played out in my life too.
(18:14):
But, you know, for the first relationship and and by the way, for the the
first two guys, Matt and Greg, those those names were changed
to protect their real identity, obviously. But,
I I think, Matt, I I was using as a crutch to try and change
my independence from my dependence, from my adopted family
to try and get some semblance of of separation and my own sense
(18:36):
of self. It it was kind of a sad
grasp on my part that it did ultimately help me
transition, but it was, you know, looking back in the context of
an adoptee, I I can I can understand that?
And then, you know, the next relation to the next relationship, the next
assault, that and then he and, again, in his family, there was a
(18:59):
history of trauma and violence that I didn't know about. And,
so I was totally shocked about it. And and, you know, back in those days,
people didn't talk about this stuff. It was very hidden and very
very private. And then and then the guy at when I got
first got to Colgate, I don't know. He was he was just awful.
Clearly someone who had a habit of that from the reactions of of his
(19:21):
roommates and things. And and, and that
again, I don't think in the moment I I dealt with that
well. It we didn't people didn't talk about it. You didn't hear about it when
you did have a story like that to tell. No one told you to get
help or seek help. And I think part of why I went into such a
depression and withdrawal when I first got to Colgate was not only a
(19:43):
point in my life where I was trying to really form myself, but but
this assault, you know, looking back, you you don't go through something like that
and not deal with it. It comes out. You're just not understanding
what happened and why you're struggling. And I did a show with Dina Patel, and
she talked about thinking that she had buried it and locked it away. And then
Yeah. You know, 10 or 15 years later, it surfaced and
(20:06):
just roared to her body and almost completely took her down. One thing that
happened at Colgate that I was really happy for is you take
this childhood development course. And to
me, instead of maybe looking for boyfriends to help you
escape your dependence on your parents or I thought this was
really a turning point for you in the sense of trying
(20:28):
to understand that some of the answers for your anxiety,
the questions you had about your your own identity, It was gonna be
a matter of your choice, and I thought that course, to me, and I maybe
I read it wrong, was really the first step that you took
to kinda claiming your life as your own. You're right. It
was. And it was just so, it was so shocking to me and so surprising
(20:52):
and so wonderful to know that there were these, that I wasn't alone
in my thoughts and that there are a lot of people that have really studied
this and thought about it, looked into it. It wasn't just opinions or, you know,
feelings. It was it was really quantified. And I think I think one of the
the points I keep making about biology and identity and and and
belonging and all that, When I when I talk about this strength,
(21:13):
this unknown strength, let let okay. So my adopted parents, I don't
think either of them in a situation where someone
attacked them, you know, physically or sexually. I I I don't know how
they either would have reacted, but but I don't think it was the way I
reacted. And so I I totally did not recognize
the response I had in both situations where I got myself out of those
(21:34):
situations and I took care of myself and I and I was strong and I
moved forward. I I didn't recognize that in me at all. I thought it was
such a weak person. Many, many years later, when I discovered
my biological roots and heritage and met my birth parents,
separately, they would have. I I could see there is,
like, oh my god. That's how they would've responded. I mean, I had
(21:55):
these traits, these strengths actually that
came through my DNA and that were part of me that
I never knew. I never saw. I never sat saw that behavior
displayed by or mirrored in other people in my family.
And it was only after that and looking back, I went,
that's what that's where that came from. You know? In the in the moment, I
(22:19):
was like, where is this coming from? I I don't understand. But it was there.
I just had never seen it, never witnessed it. And I there were
so many strengths and and characteristics of
myself that I had no idea about and
that I do believe had I seen had I
seen other people around me acting in a certain way, responding to things
(22:41):
in a certain way, it would have felt more natural to me to
respond in those ways myself.
It's just fascinating to me how much of us is
our biology. It's it's it's nature. It's not nurture. It's so
interesting that, you know, 2 very horrific circumstances
led you to finding your superpower. And as they say,
(23:05):
sometimes there's a silver lining in every cloud. You know, but part of
this course, you reached out to this national database
trying to match people who were adopted with their birth
parents. And what you got back was a really a door
slammed in your face. Your mom was had no interest in searching for you. I
mean, the database was, we both put our hat in the ring, and they connect
(23:26):
us. Yeah. You know, just so many things spinning through as you're going
through. And then you meet the love of your life, Rick. And Yeah.
He helps you get your anxiety out of control, your panic attacks.
You become the parents of 2 boys, Will and Ben. As all of
this is happening, does your desire diminish in terms
of trying to find your roots because now you're actually building a
(23:48):
new family tree? Or does it actually become more
pronounced because you realize what it's like to be part of a family? Yeah.
I think it became more pronounced. It never diminished. I mean, I I I had
to put it aside for many years because I was so busy
or so consumed with taking care of other people. My my children, my
increasingly, you know, elderly adopted parents and other
(24:11):
siblings who needed support and help. But, I
literally thought about, you know, those questions. Who am I? Where do they
come from? Every day in my life. I don't think a day went by when
I didn't ask myself those questions and wished and
wanted to somehow find a way to learn this. And there weren't. All those
years, you could there were no DNA websites and there was no no social media.
(24:32):
I mean, there was just there was sort of no way to do that. I
had no information whatsoever to go on, not a name, not a place.
But certainly having my own children, it only made me more curious because now
it it affected them too on those, you know, all the pediatrician
forms, family history. I did I don't know. You know, what what if there's
something in our family they need to know about and, and who do they
(24:54):
look like? And it turned out my oldest
son, we kinda didn't know who Will looked like for most of our lives. Like,
gee, he didn't really look like Rick. He'd looked me. I mean, at different night,
when he was young, he looked like Rick when he was older, he looked like
me. But and then when I ultimately met my birth father,
I mean, they were clones. Just clones. And and so what
would it have been like for Will to be able to see himself in
(25:18):
someone else? And then my my half brother on my father's
side and Will are just 2 peas in a pod, and and he could have
been such a role, a great role model for Will. And and what if he
had been able to know know Sean all his life? And and the the mystery
deepened when I had my own children. And I also
understood biology and connection more and and felt that
(25:39):
missing link in in me probably even more. And it's interesting. You know, you put
in the book in the primal wound, Nancy Newton Vary writes, sometimes
the adoptee experiences a second rejection upon making contact
with their birth mother. Being rejected again is devastating. It's
all the excruciating feelings of abandonment loss resurface. And
I wanna talk about let's move it to 2,006. You and Rick are
(26:02):
now empty nesters, so we've really moved the story forward.
And Rick wants you to meet. He says, look it. We gotta figure out a
way, whether it's private investigation and stuff. And once again, you know, you continue to
be rejected. As you say, 96% of birth mothers wanna
meet their child. My mother doesn't. So what
happens, which is I find first of all, this is where I I
(26:24):
move my dislike from your the mother who adopted you to the
mother who gives birth, But you end up meeting your
father first. And I think it's one of the Even though you only had 2
years with him because of his age and his health, I have to
believe those are moan some of those moments are among the best of your life.
Meeting him, so profound, transformed
(26:46):
my life, filled up the big black hole that I had lived
with every day of my life, that all adoptees, I think, talk about. We
all recognize that term, the big black hole. And I
was so surprised that even not knowing
anything about him, simply meeting him and looking in his eyes
and and having him say my name, that big black hole
(27:08):
just filled up, filled up. It was just
amazing. And it just I made sense for the
first time in my life. And he went all in. I mean, he it wasn't
just, hey. Thanks. It's great to see you. You know, make sure we'll send Christmas
cards to each other. I mean Right. He wanted you to meet his kids. He
want I mean, you it just you just inherited a new
(27:29):
family that embraced you as they should as one
of their own. And as he said to the, social worker when she
reached out to him, I mean, he had no idea I existed. He did not
know he had bothered a child at age 18 and, had
never knew anything about me. And so this was quite a shock to get a
call one night while you're watching Jeopardy that you have a grown daughter and she'd
(27:50):
like to meet you. But when he confirmed the agency's
legitimacy and and all that, he he said, if she has my blood, she's
my daughter. Of course, I wanna meet her. So Larry is your birth dad, and
you have to take him to the hospital. He's injured his hand. And the nurse
looks at you and says, are you family? And what did you say?
Well, it was funny because I hesitated. It was the first time we you know,
(28:11):
he we'd really been together. And and I and I don't know. I don't know
if he wants me to go back with him or not. I'm sitting there and
but I do. I I'm like when she said, are you family? I'm thinking, yeah.
I am. And I just say, yes. I'm his daughter. And we both I
smile, and he looks a little shocked too. And and yet, you know, he
then he just smiles and he winks at me, and he goes, she sure is.
I mean, it was just, just one of the that first time was sort
(28:34):
of said out loud by by someone else. That was my hug of happiness. And
I have to say, I'm gonna encourage people to buy this book because
we're we're just touching on so many of the powerful emotional cords.
You only have 2 years with Larry and it's but, you know, I think you
spent in those 2 years, you live more with
your dad than some people sadly live with their dad for their entire
(28:57):
life. I mean, you guys didn't squander. He spent time with you in
Nantucket and such. Yeah. Your other dad, though, his
health is failing. And Yeah. Your mom comes to live with you
for a month. As you said, I could take her in the smallest of
times, but it just continues. She just continues to come back
into your life. To me, I if I was to name her as write a
(29:18):
screenplay, I'd say she's the carpet or the rug puller. Every time you're standing
on a rug and feeling good and curling your toes into the fabric, she
seems to wanna yank it. But I just the the interesting thing that I I
was fascinated about is you still the black hole might have been filled, but there
was still a part where you wanted to know your birth
mother. Share how it came about because I thought it was quite
(29:40):
interesting that her refusal, you could have
easily just backed away, but you went to her
children, and that became And I wouldn't say it was
a great bridge to your birth mom, Shirley, but at least it was the
beginning of finally having a lunch together. Yeah. It was,
it was something that the social worker from my agency had
(30:02):
encouraged me to do all along, and I had refused
because I thought, oh, you know, they're
gonna be protective of it. She doesn't wanna meet me. I mean, I had I
had reached out to Shirley every year for 5
years and and she just kept just wouldn't even
respond. She just, you know, just completely
(30:23):
shut me out. Wouldn't even respond at a certain point. I was going through the
agency at first and then directly. And each time she denied anything to
do with me and and even speaking to me, which was very very
painful. But you have a drive. I I think most
adoptees have this and if you're in touch with it, it's almost like this
physical drive to reconnect with the birth mother, to reconnect with the center
(30:45):
of your world, the the your whole world at the beginning of your life. And
it's almost this physical compulsion. Like, I need to find
her. I need to find her. I need to feel that connection in order to
to finally feel peace. And it it's just like this
this missing limb or something that you just gotta find and you wanna, like, reattach
from it. It's just this it's it's for me, it was this physical drive. Some
(31:08):
some people have said, oh, you're very brave to do this. I'm like, I wasn't
brave. I was compelled. Like, I couldn't not do this. So
when she kept refusing me, the the social worker kept saying, you need to contact
your your siblings on her side. They're 5. You're all adults.
She doesn't get to make the decision for them whether they have a relationship with
you. And I kept saying, no. No. No. They'll they'll be protective of her.
(31:29):
She raised them and or or they'll have her same personality, and they'll not be
interested in meeting me. And I just kept
refusing until I finally really
got mad when I was reading Joan Didion's Blue Nights
and she was she had adopted a a child, her only
child, and she said some things in there that just really annoyed me and
(31:52):
and just, you know, push finally pushed me over the edge. And I
went, I am gonna reach out to them. So I I did. I wrote a
letter to all 5 of them and overnighted it so they'd all receive it the
same time. And it was that, you know, I just I I just had
a drive to connect with that side of me. But you got
another rural love back. I'm not saying across the board
(32:13):
initially, but certainly the there was so many reaching
out and they were embarrassed for their mother and your mother,
ashamed, basically let you know it's not just you. That's the way she raised
us. I mean, there was a lot of feeling, but as you
said, brave is not the word. You're compelled to saying, Yes, but
I still wanna meet her. So take us to the time where you've you've
(32:36):
you know, she gives you, I think, 18 hours notice that, yes, she
can find a way to fit you in the schedule for lunch, lunch, but she's
a very, very busy woman. And you spend a couple 2 or 3 hours
talking, but, I mean, again, I was reading words in the paper. I
wasn't there. I would say she, her, and your the mother
that adopted you both lacked a soul. Yeah. It's so
(32:58):
interesting that either mother and I very much
acknowledge that I was better off having been adopted
and raised by Audrey even with all her shortcomings than I would have been
raised by my birth mother, Shirley. But I also point out to
people 2 things can be true. It it it can be true that I was
better off not being mothered by Shirley, and I
(33:19):
still had a traumatic childhood that I
didn't know all those years what my birth mother was like. And so, of
course, I imagined that she was the
love and the connection I was yearning for.
But even when I met her and it turned out so funny that both my
mothers were sort of cold and distant and very narcissistic, and both my fathers were
(33:41):
loving and kind. Yeah. But 2 things can be true at
once. You know, just because I was lucky not to be raised by her
doesn't mean I was lucky to be raised in my adopted house, which
was by all measures a perfectly fine, you know,
lovely middle class upbringing with, you know, I wasn't
abused in any way. It's it's I think it's sometimes hard for
(34:03):
people to understand. And what people most want from adoptees is
gratitude. And one of the things I'm trying to say with this
book is don't ask us to be grateful for trauma.
Like, as much as you'd like to think adoption is a happy thing for
everybody, the one person it it's not happy for anybody truly,
but but the real trauma happens to the the adoptee
(34:25):
who is robbed of all their heritage and their connection to their past, robbed of
their identity, forced to live a very false life, feel it, live with
a different name, live with a different identity, feel that disconnect.
And and we're supposed to be grateful. Well, we are grateful for a
for a home and and for love, but we aren't grateful for
the the stealing, the robbing us of who we are and
(34:47):
and our true lives and making us feel bad if
we if we note that and if we feel that and and we're not
grateful. All four of your the your the
parents that adopted you and and your birth mother and father are no
longer with you. As you reflect, the dads were
superhuman beings. Even though you only had 2 years with Larry, he he
(35:10):
loved you as much as any dad could love, and I would argue Bob did
as well. But did the mothers ever open their heart in
any way, or did they continue to just fill the moat with
denial or despair or frustration
that you just couldn't understand how important their role was and
how insignificant yours was in their life. They
(35:32):
ever change their thing at all? I had I had a moment with my adopted
mother about a week before she died that wasn't
fully that but in which it was the most
emotional that we'd we'd ever been when when she was you know
she knew she was dying and and when we had sort of when I read
about that the book we had a moment where we had a a
(35:54):
closeness. I never had that with Shirley during the the
few years that I knew her that that she was alive. We also went through
COVID during that time. So there, you know, you cut a couple of years out
of that short period where we couldn't see each other either. That and that just
made things worse. She even she even retreated further and really, you
know, wanted me out of her life. And, you know, when I sent her flowers
on her birthday, told me to recall the flowers. I mean, she just didn't want
(36:17):
any reminder of me. Then we, I did meet her a few times and we'd
get together with my sisters often and, again,
she could be pleasant to me but she could not accept me
as hers.
When we return more insights on what it feels to be abandoned by
Janet Schirlin, Of course, my 3 takeaways, and I
(36:40):
get her to read the 3rd because I think it's one of the greatest lessons
in life I've heard yet on Chatter That Matters.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman from Chatter that matters. The world's upside
down and having peace of mind seems to be the exception versus the rule.
RBC Wealth Management is hoping to change that. They don't have a
(37:03):
crystal ball, but they do have a team of experts dedicated to working with
you to preserve and grow your wealth and help you manage risk so that you
can enjoy the rewards of your labor. Your peace of mind and
financial health matters to RBC.
Meeting him, so profound, transformed
(37:25):
my life, filled up the big black hole that I had lived
with every day of my life, that all adoptees, I think, talk about. We
all recognize that term, the big black hole. You're listening to Chatter That Matters
with Tony Chapman, presented by RBC. Today my
guest is Janet Cherlin. Being adopted, well it made
her feel like she was living a bored life. So she
(37:48):
decided to write about it. And her memoir, Abandoned at Birth, Searching
for the Arms That Once Held Me, not only fulfilled a dream of hers to
become a published author, but in doing so, it raises awareness
about loss and grief and adoption, and why it takes more than
love to survive that trauma. Today,
are you at peace now that you've you understand
(38:10):
where you come from, at peace with the fact that you've got such a beautiful
extended family? Have you found that, or is it is that the reality of when
you've lived with something like this your whole life, that black hole always
feels like it could just open it up and swallow you again? I'm I'm more
at peace than I ever have been, and I think I have a a
appreciation of myself, forgiveness forgiveness for myself and an
(38:31):
appreciation of myself and my my strength. I I think one
of the things writing this book did, even though through my whole life I thought
about adoption, studied adoption, I've been in therapy most of my life for
things. Thought I had it all figured out. But what writing
this book did, which I'm bringing it all together, there was in another
a deeper level of emotional processing. It wasn't
(38:53):
the facts. It was the emotional processing. And I kinda
could look back and realize how alone and how
sad and how painful and how traumatized my life had been
and a greater appreciation for having come through that. And I
realized and and sort of accept in the way you accept grief into your life,
I think. But I realize that when you're adopted, you really
(39:15):
don't belong to anything. You are really alone. We are all alone, ultimate
life, but you are alone. You're really not part of your adoptive family. You're not
part of your biological family. And I, as I say, I'm lucky enough
to have a wonderful husband and children but there's something, you know, again, that
wasn't in my life early on and you really you're really
alone. But now I think through going through this,
(39:36):
you learn to accept the things that your adoption brought you. You
learn to understand the things that are in you that you never understood. You see
a connection to the past. You see a connection to your heritage and
your history, and you form a strength. You form a core that all human beings
need to form, that most people form in adolescence. And
and those of us that that don't know it struggle to form that.
(39:59):
I feel strong now, and I feel proud to have done
the hard work because it's hard. But I also
had a lot of pain in writing the book. It it really
brought me in even deeper touch with the grief
and the loss and the sorrow. And it it coincided with a time in my
life where I was losing all these parents and my brother. There's so much loss.
(40:20):
And it was agonizingly painful
to to relive that and to,
really to relive my life, which is why I hesitate. I didn't wanna write a
memoir, but but I ultimately had to to get this story out.
And but I take pride in having gone there and
worked hard at that. And I'm appreciate the
(40:42):
place I've come to in life be because of that. And and I've done it
with help. But, you know, I I again, I had great therapists along the way
and and family and and that kind of work does take support.
But if you do it, you're not burying it. And I think Rick,
even from the day he pulled out the watermelon when you're having the panic attack,
was so in love with you even though you might have felt you could get
(41:06):
abandoned by him the way other people had, I think
over time, you realize that, you were his rock and he was your rock. And
I and I think that's that's part of the love story in the book
because he never felt threatened that you needed to know
these answers. He never felt threatened that I why why am I not enough? Why
aren't our sons not enough? I give testament to him as
(41:27):
well because weaker people might feel that
they're being insecure because you're not secure in your
relationship. I'm a believer that we are also
not just connected by cells, but our spirits
carry on. And if you had a chance to
send a message today to Larry, your birth
(41:49):
father, based on all you've come through, the pain, the
writing, where you are today, what would you say to him? Thank you for
the openness and and the love. I mean, he just
immediately opened and as does his whole family.
And and there's something I I think
extraordinary about meeting a parent when you're
(42:12):
middle aged. There's no baggage. You know, if if a father
raising a child or a child being raised, but in any family, you know,
if you go through life, there's you have to have baggage. There are disappointments and
there are expectations and all that. When you are an adult and you meet a
parent as an adult, you can just be open to each
other and love each other and wanna know all the stories of each other. It's
(42:34):
a really beautiful, clean, unfettered
kind of relationship. And, it was really neat to experience
that. I wouldn't have guessed that, but we were just so open to
each other and enthralled and wanted to know everything about each other, and it was
really lovely. And you talked about Bob, the father who adopted
you and raised you and you loved dearly, that he couldn't accept
(42:56):
that level of emotion. But do you think he left us with him
knowing just how much he loved him? Yes. I do.
Oh, that's scary. There was that that nonverbal communication,
you know. And and and certainly certainly, I wrote those things to him
all the time. I never had I never could say it to his face just
because he was that kind of private person but but I think we
(43:18):
communicated nonverbally and spiritually, and I I think he
knew. And if you had time with
Audrey, the mother who adopted you, or you could send one
message in a bottle to heaven or Mhmm. What would you say to her?
I think I'd say I now understand.
As I said, she was damaged when she was young. You know, she
(43:41):
lost the sister. Her parents were grieving so deeply. And,
I she just spent her life trying to get attention because she hadn't been
given it as a as a child. And maybe I shouldn't say I forgive her.
I I probably don't forgive her for all the things she did to us, the
lack of love. But I but I I guess I would just say I understand.
And let's not say the best for Alaska because this is far from the best,
(44:03):
but, surely Yeah. You know, surely, if you did, know, if
you caught her in that one moment, let her drawbridge down
because I have to believe when that as much as she wanted to distance herself,
she still carried you for 9 months. She still gave birth.
There is still a cellular connection. What would you say to Shirley? That's a
hard one. I think I'm still angry with
(44:26):
her for, you know, we never connected. We never had that
moment. I would just say, I
guess, I still want to, you know, I I still want
to know you. I still want to be connected with you, and and I
wish that we had had that. Janet, I always end my my
shows with my sort of three takeaways. And the first one
(44:48):
is interesting what you just said. When you meet somebody, a
parent at midlife, you know, there's no circumstances or
baggage. You know, there's no condition, so you can love somebody
unconditionally. And maybe the lesson for all of us there is
to forgive those circumstances and
the things that hold you back from unconditional love, to
(45:10):
treat the times you are together with the people you
share blood with as an opportunity to
be unconditionally in love. And I think a lot of families would be
better off because there's so many families that are just pulled apart,
and not in your case because you were abandoned, but just pulled apart
because they failed to ever reconcile. The second thing is what
(45:33):
your housekeeper said when you were off to see your, Shirley,
your birth mom for the first time, and she goes, the blood
calls. Those three words to me compressed the entire
book. Well, I wanted I it was originally named that. It was originally named The
Blood Calls, and my publisher said, you know, that sounds too much like a
vampire novel or or a mystery novel. It's so funny. It's so interesting that we
(45:56):
both found because I I to me, that was what it was, and I love
what you said that we are animals. There's a there's a
connection, a cellular connection. I don't know whether it's scent or
spirituality, but when you're adopted, you you
can't feel that. You can't have that. And so there's no question
why I could see why the word compelled came out. And then the
(46:17):
final thing I wanna end with is to remind people what your
dad said when you asked if there was heaven. And I
want you to say that again because you say it was such love in your
voice. He said, I believe heaven
is the way it no. I believe heaven is the feeling you leave in
people while you're still here on this earth. You know
(46:39):
what? That is the most powerful
words of wisdom I've had in my 220
plus episodes that, if we stop
thinking of heaven as a power grab by religious groups and
thought thought of it really as a way to live our lives,
I think humanity would be better off. Janet Charlene, I've
(47:02):
just so enjoyed, first of all, I love reading your book. I still want to
give you massive hugs, a lot now for
happiness. There's a lot of tears through it, but I hope so many
people read your book, not just the people who have been adopted,
but just to create much better awareness on the planet,
what it means to be compelled to find
(47:24):
who you are and to help you identify why it matters. So thank you for
joining me in Chatter That Matters. Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate being
here and loved speaking with you. Chatter that
matters has been a presentation of RBC. It's Tony
Chapman. Thanks for listening. Let's chat soon.
If our life is a symphony and notes, then each of
us is born into a unique melody.
This composition shaped by our heritage, the DNA of our
parents, the arms that first held us.
But what happens when the first notes of our song are a mystery, when the
melody of our beginning is shrouded in silence,
(00:25):
when there's an absence of one crucial chord, the identity of your
birth parents. What reverberates is a childhood where
bedtime stories don't carry the whisper of ancestral tales, or
the family tree begins with your branch? And it's a
reality for millions around the world, a sonnet of
questions woven in the very fabric of their existence. Even if
(00:48):
that child is adopted into a home of love, a sanctuary where, on the
surface, they're much better off, they have safety, security, and possibilities,
What lies underneath is something that could eat away at their self esteem
and identity. Who am I?
And this yearning and ache to unravel the enigma of their origins
(01:08):
never goes away. A desire to know who their birth mother
was, and how she carried you. Was it shame, or did it bring shame, was
it desperation, horrific circumstances,
Was it even a hint of a dream of one day reuniting? It's
almost like this physical drive to reconnect with the birth mother, to
reconnect with the center of your world, the the your whole world at the beginning
(01:30):
of your life. And it's almost this physical compulsion, like,
I need to find her. I need to find her. I need to feel that
connection in order to to finally feel
peace. Joining me today is Janet Sherlund,
who wrote a powerful book titled The Bandit at Birth (01:44):
Searching for the Arms
That Once Held Me. I'm recording this remote, but during my
interview, many times I wish I could held her in my arms, if only
for a moment to take away some of her
pain.
(02:04):
This is chatter that matters with Tony Chapman
presented by RBC.
Janet, Sherlyn, thanks for joining me on Chatter That Matters. Oh, thank you so
much for having me, Toni, and, and for that beautiful introduction.
I'm at a beautiful position in with the podcast that I often get
pitched by publicists. And, and one of my favorite is Simon
(02:27):
Shuster, who's publishing your book. And I
opened yours and I read the prologue, and I
had to keep reading. I absolutely felt like I was in the car
with you that day on that warm
November day, as you say with this bright sun and blue skies.
And I was wondering if you could just read the prologue for my
(02:50):
audience so they can get swept away the way I did.
I drove to the adoption agency on unusually warm November
day, 65 degrees with bright sun and
pure blue skies. Most trees still held their leaves,
the consequence of a warm, wet autumn and the roadside
(03:10):
glowed green and gold with only the occasional streak of orange.
The radio blasted Springsteen, and I drummed to the steering
wheel, my mind wandering with the ease of familiar roads.
The route took me through the town where my husband, Rick, and I had lived
for 30 years and along roads I remembered from my childhood.
Given my destination, the drive through my past was poetic.
(03:35):
Snugged into my seat, sunlight curling around my shoulders,
I was grateful for the opportunity that lay ahead to
read excerpts of my adoption file from 1954.
11 years earlier, I took the same drive to the agency while searching for my
birth parents. Such information hadn't been offered to me then.
(03:55):
But now, many years into a difficult journey, the
compassionate social worker thought it might be helpful. Well,
I had since discovered many facts about my adoption. I was looking
for nuanced details. Did my mother ever hold
me? Have I ever seen her face?
Where was I between my birth and adoption? I
(04:18):
hoped reading specifics would bring an moment of understanding
and prayed for much needed closure. Fortified by all I had
learned over the past decade, I walked into the agency with a
big smile, confident the pages I read today would be the
holy grail, the final piece of the puzzle.
(04:38):
Jennifer, what did you learn that day? Because you're walking
in with just the skip to your step. First
of all, things were real visceral. I mean, holding papers
from 1954, you know, the actual typed pages
and the actual handwritten notes of the social worker in her in
her longhand script, the pages that were
(05:01):
limp or brittle. And and it was like I was transported back
in time to this point of my life that I had
no idea about. You know, I was adopted. I was never told birth stories
or 1st day stories or 1st weeks or month stories. And
and it was like this secret that had been in this in this
file all these years that all these other eyes had seen but mine had
(05:23):
never seen. And, reading
reading the information, especially the descriptions
of me as a baby that were written by other people like
the psychologist doing the developmental tests and
and things was was so shocking first because I had
a different name. I, you know, I think when I was growing up, I thought,
(05:45):
oh, I was adopted. I must have been, you know, baby girl blank
or, you know, and then my parents named me and that was my first identity.
But first to realize and see on official paperwork
that I was someone else. I was, you know,
Linda Lee Jones. It's like, who the hell was Linda Lee
Jones? And but I was really and I was referred to that over and
(06:08):
over and over in the paperwork. And I was referred to as, you know, Shirley
Ann Jones' daughter, Linda Lee. And I'm like, what? Like, what? And it
was it was very profound and really shook me even
though I had some of that information already. But somehow seeing it, holding
it, seeing those external descriptions of
me and seeing this description of this newborn
(06:29):
baby lying there who had mannerisms that I still
have and that people still note that I have was
really shook me to my core. You read a note from your
birth mother, Shirley, that made you feel quite unglued? She
had an unusual level of denial. The the agency kept noting
that. Most of their birth mothers and their normal practices,
(06:53):
included more involvement of the birth mother in the those early in the early
weeks. And she just refused to meet me, to look at me, to
acknowledge me in in any sense. And, you know, when the when
the baffled social worker asked her if I was even real to her, she just
said, frankly, no. And she refused to the whole time
and and she just kept asking in every meeting, when can I send the papers?
(07:14):
When can I send the papers? And and then was relieved to sign them,
you know, after, I was a month in in foster care.
And it was just seeing those names and seeing my connection to
to her to this other identity and sort of understanding that my heritage,
my DNA was real and came from a real person
and that that I was made up of that
(07:38):
person's DNA and not my adopted parents yet, which I knew.
But there was just something so profound about it and and her
denial from the get go was was so painful.
It was it was just like trying to be dismissed and erased. It was
truly abandoned at birth. So I wanna because we have so much ground to
cover in such a short time. So there's gonna be times when I move this
(08:01):
story forward, but now I wanna go back to your childhood because you're adopted
by Audrey and Bob, who have struggled to
conceive their own children. So they built a family of
adopted children, you and 3 siblings. This part I
really felt, the first hug I wanted to give you is you sitting at the
dinner table with your 2 brothers, your sister,
(08:23):
and your parents feeling that you didn't even belong here. This is
almost virtual reality versus the family. Yeah. It was. You know, it's
funny. And back in the day when, no one talked
about those kinds of things, we didn't have concepts of other realities
or, we certainly didn't talk about identity
or even understand DNA and and heritage like we
(08:45):
do now. But even as a child, when I had
no knowledge of of bigger concepts, I'd sit around the
dinner table and you could just feel the separation
between everyone. You know, I was in my own little I call it
genetic dust, but it was just I sat there and mess and each person around
the table was so disconnected. We were all
(09:07):
there participating together, but there's
no connection between any of us, and you just felt it. It was you would
have come to learn is how much blood and cells
are are connecting in ways that we don't even acknowledge in in our
even nowadays and in our culture. There's some kind
of cellular recognition and understanding between family
(09:30):
that goes it's beyond words. It's almost like it like an
animal recognizes its own. I don't know if it's
smell or pheromones. I don't know what it is, but
I was very aware of it even as a child that we each were
just in these, like, separate spaces, separate
pods, and we're just made up of different I didn't know the word for it,
(09:53):
but we were just made up of different DNA. And and you could just feel
that. And it's interesting, you know, when you're, you know, I think every
kid has an imaginary friend. My name was Jacob O'Malley. I've never
told anybody that. I don't even know I don't even know how his name just
came to me. Tell me the story of the the Chinese
princess. Well, I I was a a little girl with a, you know, a
round I had no idea I was of Irish descent. I I just had this
(10:15):
round face and little eyes that smiled into slits when I
smiled, and I had the typical 1950 something, you know,
hairstyle, a little short bob and the bangs cut off in in my
my brown hair by that time. And, I never saw anyone else
I I looked like. And I had this big golden book
of children around the world. And I loved that book and the
(10:38):
illustrations in it. And the illustrations of the the
old Chinese girls were, looked like me. They had
the same hair cut and and the eyes that were as small as mine get
when I smile. And and, you know, I liked their little silk pajama
things they wore and stuff. But those those images
were the more than any I'd seen in real life within my
(10:59):
family or even with other people that we knew, those were the images I thought
I looked most like. So I decided I was a
kidnapped Chinese princess, and I've been brought to America.
But I was sure people were looking for me. The guards of the palace were
gonna come look for me. And the funny thing is for someone who is as
anxious as I was as a child, I didn't feel threatened
(11:21):
by the idea of being found and taken back to China. I
thought that, that would make me feel whole. That, you
know, as long as I was with my and I don't even know how no
one talked about this stuff. This was just so internal and so instinctive. And I
just thought, once I'm with the the the people that brought my my real
biological family, my family of origin, I'm going to feel whole and
(11:43):
safe even if it's, like, in China. So I had no
idea who I was. I was a little Irish girl. I wasn't Chinese, but but
that was my only point of reference.
You know, it's interesting as I read your book and I read every page
how important the father and your, the father that
adopted you were in your life and how
(12:05):
horrible your birth mother and the mother that
adopted. I wanna talk about her first, Audrey, because I I
came to really dislike Audrey. Yeah. 1st, I I I sorta said
she's just a a character in a sitcom. You know? She's misperfectionist,
and everything has to be right, and, you know, she has to steal every scene.
Yeah. But the more we get unpack her first of all, she's one of
(12:28):
the mathematician, a brain, first one of the first women, if not
the first woman, to get her her master's in mathematics or PhD. So I get
her full credit, but as you said, she every you know, if there's water skiing,
she had to win. If it was a family movie, she had to be the
one that was the star. I mean, it was almost like so I said, okay.
I can I can accept the fact that she she needs it? But what really
(12:48):
angered me is a couple things. Your younger brother, Mark,
adopted needs leg braces, and instead of showing empathy,
she was almost embarrassed and just considered vulnerable and weak. Yeah. Yeah. It
was it was funny. My my sister-in-law, I was talking about she had just read
the book, and called to talk about it. And we
(13:08):
were talking about Mark, and and he was the child she had the softest spot
for. But it wasn't a spot of respect.
I think it was love to the extent that she could, but it was more
this. She saw him as as weak. I think his
whole life, you know, she she didn't like my older brother, probably a
(13:28):
younger sister. She was ashamed of them. They they weren't living up to her
standards. And and as I said, I was the one who and I was so
desperate for love. I just made myself be whatever she wanted
me to be. Well, let's talk about your other brother for a sec, Eric. I
mean, he's a rebel. He's a he's a troublemaker. And you
overhear your mom saying to her friend, thank heavens he
(13:50):
isn't from me. Yeah. Now that and that is that sums up my
mother. I mean, it was really sad and and poor Eric had been,
you know, he had had so much loss by the time they adopted him. He'd
been through 2 different foster homes. His birth mother and
grandmother visited with him repeatedly through the 9 months
before he was adopted, hoping to to keep him and ultimately
(14:12):
couldn't. But he had had 2 different foster placements.
And, you know, by the time he came to my parents, he he must have
been so confused and so distrustful of attachment
and certainly hadn't had that, you know, what he needed as
an infant. And so I think I think that formed him for the rest of
his life. I think, you know, he would do anything for anybody. He he
(14:33):
grew up to be a guy that would just help anybody and always wanted to
be the friend of everyone and do everything. But, you know, his reaction
to adoption, which is typical of half the adoptees, is that he
would act out and I think test the limits. Like, is this gonna be another
family that leaves me? And because he
acted out and he didn't like school and he he was
(14:54):
a rebel. I mean, he embarrassed my my mother. I mean, she was such
a tightly wound, you know, had
to be perfection, had to be the a plus student in every way that
that really upset her. And, my younger sister had that same kind of
personality and Why did you think she had children? Because she wasn't
was it just because it completed the picture that she wanted everybody
(15:17):
to think that they were the perfect nuclear family because it Yeah. It just
strikes me and and, you know, we're gonna move the story on. But she
through the entire book, every time she comes back, there doesn't seem to be
even any softening. Even when she's writing
her obituary near dad's, it's all about her
and how she's gonna be perceived. It was striking, but I wanna now move to
(15:39):
your dad because you love this guy. Yeah. Share a
story that you just felt that when he was around,
he was as happy to have you as you were to have him. He was.
And I I think the thing that most speaks to my father
is what he told me when I was a young girl and I I asked
him if he believed in in heaven. And he went to church in every
(16:03):
Sunday and sang in the choir and all that. I I, you know, he certainly
was a religious man and I I I asked him about, do you believe in
heaven? Thinking he'd give me some, you know, religious answer.
But instead, he just looked at me and he smiled and he said, I
believe heaven is the feeling you leave in other people while
you're while you're still here on this earth. That's the
(16:24):
way he lived his life. And when he died at age 96
and every note or letter we received spoke
to that, how dad made everyone that he spoke
with feel respected and appreciated and elevated.
And they all spoke about his sense of humor. He had a very dry,
witty Minnesota, Scandinavian sense of humor. But
(16:46):
it is that that's how he lived his life and that's what I
patterned myself after. That's what I chose to pattern myself after
because I I just loved that answer. And I was so happy that
he shared that with me. I thought that was a very grown up thing to
tell a little child, and it wasn't, you know, a storybook thing. It
was how he really felt and lived. So I guess gonna just touch
(17:08):
on 3 boys in your life before you end up meeting the love
of your life, but match your first love. And I feel so sorry for
you because this you know, even though I I don't think he really made your
heart beat, he was a convenient relationship, and then he turns violent
on you one day. And thankfully, you got out of that situation because
Yeah. A lot of people don't. They start blaming themselves. And so I
(17:30):
I give you that, and then Greg comes along who's who should be in in
jail, but one night date assault, gets you drunk.
Yeah. You know? And then Lonnie, when you're at Colgate University, is this
you know, was somebody you really started getting great at connecting Schnau, but he was
more of a bohemian free spirit versus somebody who wanted to commit. How did
you deal with those three relationships? Because you're already you've got a lot
(17:51):
of anxiety as a child. You you've experienced panic attacks. There's a lot
of things happening. And, you know, almost like you said about your older
brother, what did you just feel like the rug was always being pulled underneath you
that that that you're never gonna be able to plant roots? A lot of
adoptees have trouble with trust, with intimacy,
and it's and I I could see how that played out in my life too.
(18:14):
But, you know, for the first relationship and and by the way, for the the
first two guys, Matt and Greg, those those names were changed
to protect their real identity, obviously. But,
I I think, Matt, I I was using as a crutch to try and change
my independence from my dependence, from my adopted family
to try and get some semblance of of separation and my own sense
(18:36):
of self. It it was kind of a sad
grasp on my part that it did ultimately help me
transition, but it was, you know, looking back in the context of
an adoptee, I I can I can understand that?
And then, you know, the next relation to the next relationship, the next
assault, that and then he and, again, in his family, there was a
(18:59):
history of trauma and violence that I didn't know about. And,
so I was totally shocked about it. And and, you know, back in those days,
people didn't talk about this stuff. It was very hidden and very
very private. And then and then the guy at when I got
first got to Colgate, I don't know. He was he was just awful.
Clearly someone who had a habit of that from the reactions of of his
(19:21):
roommates and things. And and, and that
again, I don't think in the moment I I dealt with that
well. It we didn't people didn't talk about it. You didn't hear about it when
you did have a story like that to tell. No one told you to get
help or seek help. And I think part of why I went into such a
depression and withdrawal when I first got to Colgate was not only a
(19:43):
point in my life where I was trying to really form myself, but but
this assault, you know, looking back, you you don't go through something like that
and not deal with it. It comes out. You're just not understanding
what happened and why you're struggling. And I did a show with Dina Patel, and
she talked about thinking that she had buried it and locked it away. And then
Yeah. You know, 10 or 15 years later, it surfaced and
(20:06):
just roared to her body and almost completely took her down. One thing that
happened at Colgate that I was really happy for is you take
this childhood development course. And to
me, instead of maybe looking for boyfriends to help you
escape your dependence on your parents or I thought this was
really a turning point for you in the sense of trying
(20:28):
to understand that some of the answers for your anxiety,
the questions you had about your your own identity, It was gonna be
a matter of your choice, and I thought that course, to me, and I maybe
I read it wrong, was really the first step that you took
to kinda claiming your life as your own. You're right. It
was. And it was just so, it was so shocking to me and so surprising
(20:52):
and so wonderful to know that there were these, that I wasn't alone
in my thoughts and that there are a lot of people that have really studied
this and thought about it, looked into it. It wasn't just opinions or, you know,
feelings. It was it was really quantified. And I think I think one of the
the points I keep making about biology and identity and and and
belonging and all that, When I when I talk about this strength,
(21:13):
this unknown strength, let let okay. So my adopted parents, I don't
think either of them in a situation where someone
attacked them, you know, physically or sexually. I I I don't know how
they either would have reacted, but but I don't think it was the way I
reacted. And so I I totally did not recognize
the response I had in both situations where I got myself out of those
(21:34):
situations and I took care of myself and I and I was strong and I
moved forward. I I didn't recognize that in me at all. I thought it was
such a weak person. Many, many years later, when I discovered
my biological roots and heritage and met my birth parents,
separately, they would have. I I could see there is,
like, oh my god. That's how they would've responded. I mean, I had
(21:55):
these traits, these strengths actually that
came through my DNA and that were part of me that
I never knew. I never saw. I never sat saw that behavior
displayed by or mirrored in other people in my family.
And it was only after that and looking back, I went,
that's what that's where that came from. You know? In the in the moment, I
(22:19):
was like, where is this coming from? I I don't understand. But it was there.
I just had never seen it, never witnessed it. And I there were
so many strengths and and characteristics of
myself that I had no idea about and
that I do believe had I seen had I
seen other people around me acting in a certain way, responding to things
(22:41):
in a certain way, it would have felt more natural to me to
respond in those ways myself.
It's just fascinating to me how much of us is
our biology. It's it's it's nature. It's not nurture. It's so
interesting that, you know, 2 very horrific circumstances
led you to finding your superpower. And as they say,
(23:05):
sometimes there's a silver lining in every cloud. You know, but part of
this course, you reached out to this national database
trying to match people who were adopted with their birth
parents. And what you got back was a really a door
slammed in your face. Your mom was had no interest in searching for you. I
mean, the database was, we both put our hat in the ring, and they connect
(23:26):
us. Yeah. You know, just so many things spinning through as you're going
through. And then you meet the love of your life, Rick. And Yeah.
He helps you get your anxiety out of control, your panic attacks.
You become the parents of 2 boys, Will and Ben. As all of
this is happening, does your desire diminish in terms
of trying to find your roots because now you're actually building a
(23:48):
new family tree? Or does it actually become more
pronounced because you realize what it's like to be part of a family? Yeah.
I think it became more pronounced. It never diminished. I mean, I I I had
to put it aside for many years because I was so busy
or so consumed with taking care of other people. My my children, my
increasingly, you know, elderly adopted parents and other
(24:11):
siblings who needed support and help. But, I
literally thought about, you know, those questions. Who am I? Where do they
come from? Every day in my life. I don't think a day went by when
I didn't ask myself those questions and wished and
wanted to somehow find a way to learn this. And there weren't. All those
years, you could there were no DNA websites and there was no no social media.
(24:32):
I mean, there was just there was sort of no way to do that. I
had no information whatsoever to go on, not a name, not a place.
But certainly having my own children, it only made me more curious because now
it it affected them too on those, you know, all the pediatrician
forms, family history. I did I don't know. You know, what what if there's
something in our family they need to know about and, and who do they
(24:54):
look like? And it turned out my oldest
son, we kinda didn't know who Will looked like for most of our lives. Like,
gee, he didn't really look like Rick. He'd looked me. I mean, at different night,
when he was young, he looked like Rick when he was older, he looked like
me. But and then when I ultimately met my birth father,
I mean, they were clones. Just clones. And and so what
would it have been like for Will to be able to see himself in
(25:18):
someone else? And then my my half brother on my father's
side and Will are just 2 peas in a pod, and and he could have
been such a role, a great role model for Will. And and what if he
had been able to know know Sean all his life? And and the the mystery
deepened when I had my own children. And I also
understood biology and connection more and and felt that
(25:39):
missing link in in me probably even more. And it's interesting. You know, you put
in the book in the primal wound, Nancy Newton Vary writes, sometimes
the adoptee experiences a second rejection upon making contact
with their birth mother. Being rejected again is devastating. It's
all the excruciating feelings of abandonment loss resurface. And
I wanna talk about let's move it to 2,006. You and Rick are
(26:02):
now empty nesters, so we've really moved the story forward.
And Rick wants you to meet. He says, look it. We gotta figure out a
way, whether it's private investigation and stuff. And once again, you know, you continue to
be rejected. As you say, 96% of birth mothers wanna
meet their child. My mother doesn't. So what
happens, which is I find first of all, this is where I I
(26:24):
move my dislike from your the mother who adopted you to the
mother who gives birth, But you end up meeting your
father first. And I think it's one of the Even though you only had 2
years with him because of his age and his health, I have to
believe those are moan some of those moments are among the best of your life.
Meeting him, so profound, transformed
(26:46):
my life, filled up the big black hole that I had lived
with every day of my life, that all adoptees, I think, talk about. We
all recognize that term, the big black hole. And I
was so surprised that even not knowing
anything about him, simply meeting him and looking in his eyes
and and having him say my name, that big black hole
(27:08):
just filled up, filled up. It was just
amazing. And it just I made sense for the
first time in my life. And he went all in. I mean, he it wasn't
just, hey. Thanks. It's great to see you. You know, make sure we'll send Christmas
cards to each other. I mean Right. He wanted you to meet his kids. He
want I mean, you it just you just inherited a new
(27:29):
family that embraced you as they should as one
of their own. And as he said to the, social worker when she
reached out to him, I mean, he had no idea I existed. He did not
know he had bothered a child at age 18 and, had
never knew anything about me. And so this was quite a shock to get a
call one night while you're watching Jeopardy that you have a grown daughter and she'd
(27:50):
like to meet you. But when he confirmed the agency's
legitimacy and and all that, he he said, if she has my blood, she's
my daughter. Of course, I wanna meet her. So Larry is your birth dad, and
you have to take him to the hospital. He's injured his hand. And the nurse
looks at you and says, are you family? And what did you say?
Well, it was funny because I hesitated. It was the first time we you know,
(28:11):
he we'd really been together. And and I and I don't know. I don't know
if he wants me to go back with him or not. I'm sitting there and
but I do. I I'm like when she said, are you family? I'm thinking, yeah.
I am. And I just say, yes. I'm his daughter. And we both I
smile, and he looks a little shocked too. And and yet, you know, he
then he just smiles and he winks at me, and he goes, she sure is.
I mean, it was just, just one of the that first time was sort
(28:34):
of said out loud by by someone else. That was my hug of happiness. And
I have to say, I'm gonna encourage people to buy this book because
we're we're just touching on so many of the powerful emotional cords.
You only have 2 years with Larry and it's but, you know, I think you
spent in those 2 years, you live more with
your dad than some people sadly live with their dad for their entire
(28:57):
life. I mean, you guys didn't squander. He spent time with you in
Nantucket and such. Yeah. Your other dad, though, his
health is failing. And Yeah. Your mom comes to live with you
for a month. As you said, I could take her in the smallest of
times, but it just continues. She just continues to come back
into your life. To me, I if I was to name her as write a
(29:18):
screenplay, I'd say she's the carpet or the rug puller. Every time you're standing
on a rug and feeling good and curling your toes into the fabric, she
seems to wanna yank it. But I just the the interesting thing that I I
was fascinated about is you still the black hole might have been filled, but there
was still a part where you wanted to know your birth
mother. Share how it came about because I thought it was quite
(29:40):
interesting that her refusal, you could have
easily just backed away, but you went to her
children, and that became And I wouldn't say it was
a great bridge to your birth mom, Shirley, but at least it was the
beginning of finally having a lunch together. Yeah. It was,
it was something that the social worker from my agency had
(30:02):
encouraged me to do all along, and I had refused
because I thought, oh, you know, they're
gonna be protective of it. She doesn't wanna meet me. I mean, I had I
had reached out to Shirley every year for 5
years and and she just kept just wouldn't even
respond. She just, you know, just completely
(30:23):
shut me out. Wouldn't even respond at a certain point. I was going through the
agency at first and then directly. And each time she denied anything to
do with me and and even speaking to me, which was very very
painful. But you have a drive. I I think most
adoptees have this and if you're in touch with it, it's almost like this
physical drive to reconnect with the birth mother, to reconnect with the center
(30:45):
of your world, the the your whole world at the beginning of your life. And
it's almost this physical compulsion. Like, I need to find
her. I need to find her. I need to feel that connection in order to
to finally feel peace. And it it's just like this
this missing limb or something that you just gotta find and you wanna, like, reattach
from it. It's just this it's it's for me, it was this physical drive. Some
(31:08):
some people have said, oh, you're very brave to do this. I'm like, I wasn't
brave. I was compelled. Like, I couldn't not do this. So
when she kept refusing me, the the social worker kept saying, you need to contact
your your siblings on her side. They're 5. You're all adults.
She doesn't get to make the decision for them whether they have a relationship with
you. And I kept saying, no. No. No. They'll they'll be protective of her.
(31:29):
She raised them and or or they'll have her same personality, and they'll not be
interested in meeting me. And I just kept
refusing until I finally really
got mad when I was reading Joan Didion's Blue Nights
and she was she had adopted a a child, her only
child, and she said some things in there that just really annoyed me and
(31:52):
and just, you know, push finally pushed me over the edge. And I
went, I am gonna reach out to them. So I I did. I wrote a
letter to all 5 of them and overnighted it so they'd all receive it the
same time. And it was that, you know, I just I I just had
a drive to connect with that side of me. But you got
another rural love back. I'm not saying across the board
(32:13):
initially, but certainly the there was so many reaching
out and they were embarrassed for their mother and your mother,
ashamed, basically let you know it's not just you. That's the way she raised
us. I mean, there was a lot of feeling, but as you
said, brave is not the word. You're compelled to saying, Yes, but
I still wanna meet her. So take us to the time where you've you've
(32:36):
you know, she gives you, I think, 18 hours notice that, yes, she
can find a way to fit you in the schedule for lunch, lunch, but she's
a very, very busy woman. And you spend a couple 2 or 3 hours
talking, but, I mean, again, I was reading words in the paper. I
wasn't there. I would say she, her, and your the mother
that adopted you both lacked a soul. Yeah. It's so
(32:58):
interesting that either mother and I very much
acknowledge that I was better off having been adopted
and raised by Audrey even with all her shortcomings than I would have been
raised by my birth mother, Shirley. But I also point out to
people 2 things can be true. It it it can be true that I was
better off not being mothered by Shirley, and I
(33:19):
still had a traumatic childhood that I
didn't know all those years what my birth mother was like. And so, of
course, I imagined that she was the
love and the connection I was yearning for.
But even when I met her and it turned out so funny that both my
mothers were sort of cold and distant and very narcissistic, and both my fathers were
(33:41):
loving and kind. Yeah. But 2 things can be true at
once. You know, just because I was lucky not to be raised by her
doesn't mean I was lucky to be raised in my adopted house, which
was by all measures a perfectly fine, you know,
lovely middle class upbringing with, you know, I wasn't
abused in any way. It's it's I think it's sometimes hard for
(34:03):
people to understand. And what people most want from adoptees is
gratitude. And one of the things I'm trying to say with this
book is don't ask us to be grateful for trauma.
Like, as much as you'd like to think adoption is a happy thing for
everybody, the one person it it's not happy for anybody truly,
but but the real trauma happens to the the adoptee
(34:25):
who is robbed of all their heritage and their connection to their past, robbed of
their identity, forced to live a very false life, feel it, live with
a different name, live with a different identity, feel that disconnect.
And and we're supposed to be grateful. Well, we are grateful for a
for a home and and for love, but we aren't grateful for
the the stealing, the robbing us of who we are and
(34:47):
and our true lives and making us feel bad if
we if we note that and if we feel that and and we're not
grateful. All four of your the your the
parents that adopted you and and your birth mother and father are no
longer with you. As you reflect, the dads were
superhuman beings. Even though you only had 2 years with Larry, he he
(35:10):
loved you as much as any dad could love, and I would argue Bob did
as well. But did the mothers ever open their heart in
any way, or did they continue to just fill the moat with
denial or despair or frustration
that you just couldn't understand how important their role was and
how insignificant yours was in their life. They
(35:32):
ever change their thing at all? I had I had a moment with my adopted
mother about a week before she died that wasn't
fully that but in which it was the most
emotional that we'd we'd ever been when when she was you know
she knew she was dying and and when we had sort of when I read
about that the book we had a moment where we had a a
(35:54):
closeness. I never had that with Shirley during the the
few years that I knew her that that she was alive. We also went through
COVID during that time. So there, you know, you cut a couple of years out
of that short period where we couldn't see each other either. That and that just
made things worse. She even she even retreated further and really, you
know, wanted me out of her life. And, you know, when I sent her flowers
on her birthday, told me to recall the flowers. I mean, she just didn't want
(36:17):
any reminder of me. Then we, I did meet her a few times and we'd
get together with my sisters often and, again,
she could be pleasant to me but she could not accept me
as hers.
When we return more insights on what it feels to be abandoned by
Janet Schirlin, Of course, my 3 takeaways, and I
(36:40):
get her to read the 3rd because I think it's one of the greatest lessons
in life I've heard yet on Chatter That Matters.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman from Chatter that matters. The world's upside
down and having peace of mind seems to be the exception versus the rule.
RBC Wealth Management is hoping to change that. They don't have a
(37:03):
crystal ball, but they do have a team of experts dedicated to working with
you to preserve and grow your wealth and help you manage risk so that you
can enjoy the rewards of your labor. Your peace of mind and
financial health matters to RBC.
Meeting him, so profound, transformed
(37:25):
my life, filled up the big black hole that I had lived
with every day of my life, that all adoptees, I think, talk about. We
all recognize that term, the big black hole. You're listening to Chatter That Matters
with Tony Chapman, presented by RBC. Today my
guest is Janet Cherlin. Being adopted, well it made
her feel like she was living a bored life. So she
(37:48):
decided to write about it. And her memoir, Abandoned at Birth, Searching
for the Arms That Once Held Me, not only fulfilled a dream of hers to
become a published author, but in doing so, it raises awareness
about loss and grief and adoption, and why it takes more than
love to survive that trauma. Today,
are you at peace now that you've you understand
(38:10):
where you come from, at peace with the fact that you've got such a beautiful
extended family? Have you found that, or is it is that the reality of when
you've lived with something like this your whole life, that black hole always
feels like it could just open it up and swallow you again? I'm I'm more
at peace than I ever have been, and I think I have a a
appreciation of myself, forgiveness forgiveness for myself and an
(38:31):
appreciation of myself and my my strength. I I think one
of the things writing this book did, even though through my whole life I thought
about adoption, studied adoption, I've been in therapy most of my life for
things. Thought I had it all figured out. But what writing
this book did, which I'm bringing it all together, there was in another
a deeper level of emotional processing. It wasn't
(38:53):
the facts. It was the emotional processing. And I kinda
could look back and realize how alone and how
sad and how painful and how traumatized my life had been
and a greater appreciation for having come through that. And I
realized and and sort of accept in the way you accept grief into your life,
I think. But I realize that when you're adopted, you really
(39:15):
don't belong to anything. You are really alone. We are all alone, ultimate
life, but you are alone. You're really not part of your adoptive family. You're not
part of your biological family. And I, as I say, I'm lucky enough
to have a wonderful husband and children but there's something, you know, again, that
wasn't in my life early on and you really you're really
alone. But now I think through going through this,
(39:36):
you learn to accept the things that your adoption brought you. You
learn to understand the things that are in you that you never understood. You see
a connection to the past. You see a connection to your heritage and
your history, and you form a strength. You form a core that all human beings
need to form, that most people form in adolescence. And
and those of us that that don't know it struggle to form that.
(39:59):
I feel strong now, and I feel proud to have done
the hard work because it's hard. But I also
had a lot of pain in writing the book. It it really
brought me in even deeper touch with the grief
and the loss and the sorrow. And it it coincided with a time in my
life where I was losing all these parents and my brother. There's so much loss.
(40:20):
And it was agonizingly painful
to to relive that and to,
really to relive my life, which is why I hesitate. I didn't wanna write a
memoir, but but I ultimately had to to get this story out.
And but I take pride in having gone there and
worked hard at that. And I'm appreciate the
(40:42):
place I've come to in life be because of that. And and I've done it
with help. But, you know, I I again, I had great therapists along the way
and and family and and that kind of work does take support.
But if you do it, you're not burying it. And I think Rick,
even from the day he pulled out the watermelon when you're having the panic attack,
was so in love with you even though you might have felt you could get
(41:06):
abandoned by him the way other people had, I think
over time, you realize that, you were his rock and he was your rock. And
I and I think that's that's part of the love story in the book
because he never felt threatened that you needed to know
these answers. He never felt threatened that I why why am I not enough? Why
aren't our sons not enough? I give testament to him as
(41:27):
well because weaker people might feel that
they're being insecure because you're not secure in your
relationship. I'm a believer that we are also
not just connected by cells, but our spirits
carry on. And if you had a chance to
send a message today to Larry, your birth
(41:49):
father, based on all you've come through, the pain, the
writing, where you are today, what would you say to him? Thank you for
the openness and and the love. I mean, he just
immediately opened and as does his whole family.
And and there's something I I think
extraordinary about meeting a parent when you're
(42:12):
middle aged. There's no baggage. You know, if if a father
raising a child or a child being raised, but in any family, you know,
if you go through life, there's you have to have baggage. There are disappointments and
there are expectations and all that. When you are an adult and you meet a
parent as an adult, you can just be open to each
other and love each other and wanna know all the stories of each other. It's
(42:34):
a really beautiful, clean, unfettered
kind of relationship. And, it was really neat to experience
that. I wouldn't have guessed that, but we were just so open to
each other and enthralled and wanted to know everything about each other, and it was
really lovely. And you talked about Bob, the father who adopted
you and raised you and you loved dearly, that he couldn't accept
(42:56):
that level of emotion. But do you think he left us with him
knowing just how much he loved him? Yes. I do.
Oh, that's scary. There was that that nonverbal communication,
you know. And and and certainly certainly, I wrote those things to him
all the time. I never had I never could say it to his face just
because he was that kind of private person but but I think we
(43:18):
communicated nonverbally and spiritually, and I I think he
knew. And if you had time with
Audrey, the mother who adopted you, or you could send one
message in a bottle to heaven or Mhmm. What would you say to her?
I think I'd say I now understand.
As I said, she was damaged when she was young. You know, she
(43:41):
lost the sister. Her parents were grieving so deeply. And,
I she just spent her life trying to get attention because she hadn't been
given it as a as a child. And maybe I shouldn't say I forgive her.
I I probably don't forgive her for all the things she did to us, the
lack of love. But I but I I guess I would just say I understand.
And let's not say the best for Alaska because this is far from the best,
(44:03):
but, surely Yeah. You know, surely, if you did, know, if
you caught her in that one moment, let her drawbridge down
because I have to believe when that as much as she wanted to distance herself,
she still carried you for 9 months. She still gave birth.
There is still a cellular connection. What would you say to Shirley? That's a
hard one. I think I'm still angry with
(44:26):
her for, you know, we never connected. We never had that
moment. I would just say, I
guess, I still want to, you know, I I still want
to know you. I still want to be connected with you, and and I
wish that we had had that. Janet, I always end my my
shows with my sort of three takeaways. And the first one
(44:48):
is interesting what you just said. When you meet somebody, a
parent at midlife, you know, there's no circumstances or
baggage. You know, there's no condition, so you can love somebody
unconditionally. And maybe the lesson for all of us there is
to forgive those circumstances and
the things that hold you back from unconditional love, to
(45:10):
treat the times you are together with the people you
share blood with as an opportunity to
be unconditionally in love. And I think a lot of families would be
better off because there's so many families that are just pulled apart,
and not in your case because you were abandoned, but just pulled apart
because they failed to ever reconcile. The second thing is what
(45:33):
your housekeeper said when you were off to see your, Shirley,
your birth mom for the first time, and she goes, the blood
calls. Those three words to me compressed the entire
book. Well, I wanted I it was originally named that. It was originally named The
Blood Calls, and my publisher said, you know, that sounds too much like a
vampire novel or or a mystery novel. It's so funny. It's so interesting that we
(45:56):
both found because I I to me, that was what it was, and I love
what you said that we are animals. There's a there's a
connection, a cellular connection. I don't know whether it's scent or
spirituality, but when you're adopted, you you
can't feel that. You can't have that. And so there's no question
why I could see why the word compelled came out. And then the
(46:17):
final thing I wanna end with is to remind people what your
dad said when you asked if there was heaven. And I
want you to say that again because you say it was such love in your
voice. He said, I believe heaven
is the way it no. I believe heaven is the feeling you leave in
people while you're still here on this earth. You know
(46:39):
what? That is the most powerful
words of wisdom I've had in my 220
plus episodes that, if we stop
thinking of heaven as a power grab by religious groups and
thought thought of it really as a way to live our lives,
I think humanity would be better off. Janet Charlene, I've
(47:02):
just so enjoyed, first of all, I love reading your book. I still want to
give you massive hugs, a lot now for
happiness. There's a lot of tears through it, but I hope so many
people read your book, not just the people who have been adopted,
but just to create much better awareness on the planet,
what it means to be compelled to find
(47:24):
who you are and to help you identify why it matters. So thank you for
joining me in Chatter That Matters. Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate being
here and loved speaking with you. Chatter that
matters has been a presentation of RBC. It's Tony
Chapman. Thanks for listening. Let's chat soon.
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