Al Bernstein And Barry Tompkins Conversation On Hagler-Hearns 40th Anniversary! 4 15 25

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, as promised, we are on the fortieth anniversary of
one of the most wild professional fights ever, wildest first
round ever. I don't think there's an argument and a
ko by Marvin Hagler that still resonates forty years later
over Tommy hitmanhearns. It is the Fight Preach TWU Night podcast,

(00:21):
a special edition. I am merely the somewhat competent host TJ. Reeves, Hello,
Dan Rayphiel on this special occasion, and we have got
good Oh oh do we have a show coming up?
How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm doing good. I can't wait for the people to
hear this, yes or see this if they're watching.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
That, yes, both. Full disclosure. We are typically here going
into the weekend with a preview coming off on the
recap show twice every weekend, but here this is special
occasion midweek here in April of twenty twenty five, on
the fortieth anniversary. Thank you for finding us. Make sure
you rate us in review us. You're going to rate
and review this pod. I guarantee you, because coming up
in a few moments, he was all on the closed

(01:00):
circuit call to pay per view if you will in
that time call Al Bernstein, the legendary Hall of Fame
analyst right here on this pod to talk Hagler Hearns
forty years later, and then later there was a second
call of the fight in the United States. There were
actually three calls. There was another call in Britain as well.
But the guy that called it on HBO with Ray

(01:21):
Leonard and Larry Merchant is Barry Tompkins, Dan Rayfield. Barry
Tompkins also with us to reminisce it's a twofer you
on the puffy. So before we get into our guests,
give me the little quick you know what's coming, because
we've already talked to these guys, But give me a
little bit about being nostalgic forty years later on how

(01:43):
big a deal this fight was Hagler Hearns.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Go, huge fight, obviously middleweight championship of the World. To
set the scene, we talk about it with the guys
a little bit. Ray Leonard is in retirement doing the
fights for HBO, and these guys kind of found each
other because there was no rematch for Tommy with Ray
at that point. Hagler had been unsuccessful in getting Ray
into the ring, and so how do we make it

(02:06):
the biggest fight we can, we fight each other, and
it was a huge, mega event. It turned out to
be one of the great fights in the history of boxing,
probably the greatest first round in the history of boxing period.
And the thing that I'm so excited for the people
to hear about is because we've already done the interviews
with these guys. We're just taping this after the fact.
I have, as said many times on the show when
we've discussed these fights, that I have spent most of

(02:28):
my life obsessing with these matches, the nine fights that
took place between Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns,
and Roberto Durant. So for there to be new things
for me to learn. And I say that as somebody
that has obviously watched the fights a million times. I
know a lot of the people that were involved with
the fights and has spoken to them about it, not
necessarily interviews, just people I know, other writers, the promoter,
Bob Aram, the broadcasters. I have spoken to Al Bernstein

(02:51):
and Barry just on my own private, you know, conversation
with them about that fight and others. So to hear
them come on with us and me here both of
them things that I had never heard before. I've read
the books. George Kimball, one of my longtime friends before
he passed years ago, who covered boxing for the Boston

(03:11):
Harold for many many years, who covered all nine fights
to me, wrote the definitive book about the Four King rivalry.
I watched a great Showtime documentary. I watched the legendary
Nights episodes that go behind the scenes when I heard
some of the things that al and specifically what Barry said,
there's the thing that Barry's going to talk about about
what made Ray finally decide that it was time for

(03:33):
Marvin Hagler. And it wasn't just about the fact that
he had had a rough night and won in a
highly physical fight against John mcgabbi. But this blew my mind.
I like lost, I'm losing it right now thinking about
it that I didn't know about this Barry time gets
said on this show.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
That's a tease for what Barry talks about that here
in a little bit.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I had to stop him and I had reasked, are
you are you saying.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
X Y Z, And He's like, wait, just wait. On
the tees about when Leonard believed, or at least was
being told by whom, that he could get it, that
he could do it, that he could beat Marvin Hagler
stand by for that again. To go back to this
time frame, we just need to illuminate this before we
hear from Al and hear from Barry that this is
closed circuit. This is early in the If I'm not mistaken,
it was a Monday night, right April to fifteenth, because

(04:19):
they always would have these off the weekend because they
could show it in movie theaters. Movies never really were
shown or did a lot of business on Monday night
or TUESDA night, so movie theaters, ballrooms, different locations, Monday night,
Tuesday night. They love to have the big time fights,
and that was the case for this one. With all
the build up, and it's an interesting time. No internet,

(04:41):
big Dan, as you know, no radio call of this fight,
so you were a waiting to see what happened. In
my case, I'm a teenager like you, we are the
same age. I'm listing for the radio. I'm watching the
ESPN Sports Center when they came on and said, what
a violent first round. Wait until you see it at

(05:01):
a later date if you haven't seen it, and the
radio is saying Marvin Hagler has knocked out Thomas Hearns
in the third round in what may be one of
the wildest fights we've seen in recent memory. And so
at that point I couldn't wait to watch the tape
delay on HBO, which was later that week with Barry Tompkins,
Sugar Ray Leonard, and Larry Merchant. So there's my recollection

(05:21):
of being a teenager in and around that, and I
give a quick recollection before we get to the guests.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
My recollection is reading about it in the papers leading
up to the fight. I remember reading about it in
Sports Illustrated, which you know had done preview stories about it,
but not getting a chance to see the fight live
because obviously it wasn't on HBO, which we had at
our house, but I can only watch on special occasions
because you know, it wasn't for kids at that point,

(05:46):
and so not knowing the result until actually I didn't.
I don't think I remember watching it on Sports. I
remember waking up and we got the newspaper delivered to
our house, and I guess it must have ended in time,
because I remember being in the newspaper and me looking
at the paper and then watching the replay, you know,
several days later, but really sinking my teeth into the fight.
When the Sports Illustrated came that had it on the cover,

(06:08):
that gave the extent, you know, gave their review, if
you will, their story about the fight, which was always
a great read. And I still have that issue, believe
it or not, you believe it in my collection of
boxing stuff. But yeah, that's how I found out about
I didn't know the result until the next morning because
I guess, you know, it was probably a school night,
wasn't staying up late, but was excited to see what

(06:30):
the result was. And the other thing I remember is
going to school the next day, and you know, I
wasn't like a die hard boxing can at that point,
but I still if it's a big fight, you still
kind of knew about it, even if it wasn't heavyweights.
But I remember the buzz, like going like to like
the lunch room or going to like study hall or
to the library or whatever it was. But all the
kids were talking about the fight and the result. That

(06:52):
was like one of the only times growing up that
I can remember in school there being like an excitement
from my schoolmates. It was that fight and it was
when Mike Tyson was knocking everybody out when he won
the title against Burbic. Things like that. It took something
really special to get my classmates all jacked up on
a fight.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
And of course the gen Zers now have no idea
what a newspaper is, but boxing was so mainstream that
it was front page of the newspaper, not just front
page of the sports section. And that was a night
where they would have held the printing of the front
page for weight, We're going to get the result of
the fight and put two paragraphs in on the front
page with a pictures. You didn't have the internet, kids,

(07:33):
you didn't have instantaneous stuff on your phone to be
able to find it out.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
There was no phone. It was nail wall in your kitchen.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
That's exactly right, with a rotary dial probably. So that's
the time period that we're talking about, nineteen eighty five.
We're talking about two Hall of famers squaring off and
eventually it's after the most violent of first rounds, it's
Marvin Hagler who's victorious. So better than just you and me, reminisce,
shall we bring our two guests on? Why don't we

(08:00):
do that? Al Bernstein, who was on the call that
night on the Closed circuit on the pay per view
if you will, no pay per view in the home
back in nineteen eighty five, no box. You had to
go to a location to be able to see it.
Al Michaels, the legendary voice now of the NFL that
you know him as, but he was a star for ABC.
He was on the play by play call. Al Bernstein's

(08:21):
going to explain how he came to be on the
closed circuit broadcast in his relationship with Al Michaels. And
then you'll hear from Barry Tompkins. He and Ray Leonard
and again Larry Merchant were on the replay call the
HBO tape delayed replay later in the week calling it live,
sitting right there calling it live, but they're broadcast aired
days later on the weekend. Let's hear from both of

(08:44):
those guys now on Hagler and Hearns and what they
remember as promised. He was there, Big Dan forty years
ago April fifteenth, nineteen eighty five, on the Closed Circuit
broad cast with the Al Michaels. Hello, Al Bernstein, great

(09:04):
to have you back on the Big Fight Weekend. Podcast. Okay,
the first one is we keep saying this. I don't
want to accept that this is forty years on, but
it is forty years on. Al. It's great to have you,
and it's it's remarkable that here we are talking about
this fight four decades later.

Speaker 3 (09:23):
Yeah, pretty amazing. Luckily for me, I was ten years
old when I did it.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, and still and still and still knocking on bed.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
It was.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
It was.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah, it was a remarkable thing and it Yeah, it
doesn't seem like it could be forty years right, you know,
it just doesn't. But nonetheless, it was a remarkable time
and it's so burned in our minds. I think that
you know, we all can remember, you know, what we
were up to at that time. Obviously I was, I
know what I was doing. I was sitting ringside calling
this fight and every aspect of it. You know, it

(09:59):
is a vivid memory to me.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Let's pick it up from the beginning. I've asked you
this before, but for the audience here, how did it
come about that you would be on the closed circuit
broadcast with Al Michaels with Kurt Gowdy as the host
explained How all of that came about?

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Well, it was interesting. My part wasn't that complicated because
now I was only five years into my broadcasting career
and I had done and I was doing the Top
Rank boxing series, which is virtually every week on ESPN,
so the Top Rank people who were coordinating at telecast.
I wasn't working for them or anything, but I was

(10:36):
working intimately with them because I was doing their series
every week, and I had done the nineteen eighty three
Duran Hagler fight with my then partner Seal Marciano, so
I had done a major pay per view for them,
and then when this one came up, I guess it

(10:57):
made sense for them to ask me, and they did.
And the reason that al Michaels got on the job,
I happen to know, is because at that time ABC
was considering me too. They were going to go have
an analyst for their boxing. They'd always done the boxing
with a singular voice Cosell, and then they had other

(11:18):
people doing it, you know, Chris Shankle and some other
Keth Jackson did a little boxing, and they they were
going to add they were going to make it a
two person team, and they were considering me, and they
wanted and they were gonna have al Michaels do the boxing,
so they wanted to hear us together. So they contacted

(11:41):
top Rank and said, because you put al Michaels on
this pay per view, and I get they were probably
happy to do that because that was even at that
time was his career was burgeoning, and that was how
we got paired. And of course Kirk Goudy I don't
know the genesis of him coming up on the broadcast,
but I've never even met Kirk Gowdy at that point

(12:04):
in my life, and and you know, I grew up
watching him, so it was pretty remarkable. I mean, I
remember sitting in the in the production meetings thinking to myself,
Holy cow, how do I land here?

Speaker 2 (12:15):
You know?

Speaker 3 (12:16):
But it was really pretty well.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Did Dan go ahead? All right?

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Now? I got? I got. I've always wondered this actually
because and not teacher, I were talking about this before
you joined us on the call. There are two broadcasts
for this point, as we know you, as you mentioned
you did the what became as the international broadcast with
al Michaels.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Well that was the official pay per view.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Right and well, yeah, international and the payperview closed circuit,
et cetera. But and then there was the HBO broadcast
right with their broadcast team and your broadcast. And even
though HBO was where I think a lot of people
may have seen it a week later on the replay
over the course of time, that broadcast that you and
al Michaels did together, I believe has been seen way

(12:59):
more than the other one because it was on you know,
Super Bouts and ESPN Classic and it just that's the
one that gets replayed way more often. You can find
it more readily on YouTube maybe. Yeah. So my question
is this, have you so you're sitting there doing that
fight with with al Michaels, and then there's also you
know what I think is a similarly famous call of

(13:20):
the fight by HBO folks. Have you ever gone back
and watched their version that sort of sees how and
what are your impressions of the differences, because they both
have very memorable lines from you and and and also
from their broadcasters.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, that's a really good point. And of course, Barry Thompkins,
I did the broadcast with Larry and Ray Leonards, right,
Uh and and uh they Uh, Barry and I talk
about I have talked about it many times. And then
of course, as you know and everybody else. I worked
with Barry for eight or nine years on the Top

(13:55):
Rank Boxing series. It was there are differences based on
a bunch of different things. I mean, are I'm going
to say something honestly here that I don't know if
I've ever said before.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Bring it on.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
I didn't really like my call at that fight?

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Wow? Why because I didn't love it?

Speaker 3 (14:19):
I I mean, I thought it was okay, but I
I departed a little bit from my normal style. The
excitement of the moment had me a little more excited,
and my voice texture and everything. Uh, and and I
wasn't one hundred percent. I thought I did some good

(14:41):
things on the on the on the broadcast, but it
wasn't exactly me. And now Michael's interestingly, who had done that?
You know that all we had done the undercard all
the way leading up to it. Uh, he's a He's
not a wildly excitable broadcaster. He's got a little bit
more of a subdued style, even though he can be excited. Well,

(15:03):
he was more dude during the first you know, two
and a half hours, and then he was very excited
during the show. So it wasn't that I think we
did a bad job. It's our broadcast.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
I think if you.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Listen to it is I'm going to say a little
more up tempo, if you will, then I would have
expected it to be. And I think Barry and Ray
and Larry did also. I mean, I thought they did
a wonderful job on their broadcast, and it was just

(15:40):
the nature of the beast is that you have all
these different people doing it, so of course they're going
to approach it differently. And I think the big thing
was that was the only time El Michaels and I
ever did boxing together, whereas Barry and that group had
done it, you know, all the time. So yeah, there
are differences. I'm not saying I hated what I did,
but I just if that's one of those times in life,

(16:01):
because it gets replayed over and over and over again,
I wish I could jump back in time and do
some things differently.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
I think although the fact that you mentioned that you
got I was so excited. That's what comes across to
the fans watching that gets because when the broadcasters get
excited yeah, but are still calling the action, it gets
the rest of the folks watching all juice.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yeah, And it was organic you know I'm not, as
you know, you know me very well. I'm not a
person who goes into it with the taglines or thinking
about being excited. It was organic, so I guess the
organic feeling of it. And I am glad I said
that line at the end of the first round, which
was organic and just came out of me. I'm not
giving the hyperplely where I said, you know, it's one

(16:44):
of the great rounds in middleweight history, which is pretty
much an obvious statement, but well, the only thing I
needed to be said at that point.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
The only thing you can criticize that line for is
maybe you could have just left out the word middle weight.
It wouldn't even have mattered, because.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
That's exactly right. I could one of the great runs
of boxing history, which it was.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
So I have another question about that for you. Then,
now I don't know how the the the logistics of
the event work. Did you guys have like a fighter
meeting with the guys like in the day or so
before the fight? Do you remember we did?

Speaker 3 (17:14):
And I can't. I know what you're gonna ask. Was
it with everybody? Well?

Speaker 2 (17:17):
I know that that I'd be interested. Actually it was,
But uh, the reason I'm asking, I'm what I want
to get at is when you're all or whoever was there,
whether it's just you and and telling you're in your
close circuit team, or you're also in the same room
with the other guys, I wonder is if you had
the inkling in that moment, in that meeting that this

(17:38):
was going to be you know, throw caution to the
wind and just come out blasting. Because Bob Aram has
told the story many times about being on the press
tour whe they had a barn storm and they were
facing each other every day for like, you know, a
couple of weeks, and they just wanted to beat the
crap out of each other every moment of the day.
And so as soon as that bell rang, all that
tenth up aggression came out. But you were there, as

(17:58):
it's even now, on fight weekday before or two days
before the fight, did you think this is what was
going to happen? You know?

Speaker 3 (18:05):
I attended a couple of those press conferences during that
press tour and many times later, and of course we've
all had conversations with Marvin and Tommy afterwards. They attested
the fact that during that and I was there to
see it, and I saw one of the press conferences
earlier in the press conference tour and one later, so

(18:28):
it was an interesting flavor as the tour went on. Yes,
their annoyance with each other was palpable, you know, obviously,
and you know they wanted to rip each other's head off.
So the idea was I think most of us felt
it would be faster paced at the beginning than maybe

(18:49):
other fights they had had. You know, Marvin Heckler was
known to be a ring technician early in fights where
we might even see him switching from lefty to right
and just you know, being getting his bearings. Tommy Hearns,
of course, was a super boxer as well as a
big puncher, so I don't think anyone expected that. But

(19:10):
I do think the general consensus among all of us
and everybody kind of covering it was this might be
a little quicker start than normal. Obviously that was a.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Well and to your point, Ray Leonard says on his
call thirty seconds in with Barry Tompkins, I expected this, Barry, really,
he really believed they were going to go right at it.
I want to tee you up and queue you with
something you told me before the Great al Bernstein's hanging
here with us on the Big Fight Weekend podcast series.
Here talking about the fortieth anniversary of Hagler, hearns, you

(19:43):
said you did something that night for the first time
that you've now done many times, which as the fighters
were coming to the ring, you took your headphones off
to soak it in and to enhance you being able
to describe what was happening. Pick it up on that
point on why you did that.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
If I did you know about a half hour before,
forty minutes before whatever, or no, maybe it was when
I think we had a little break when there was
a piece wanting and Bruce Tramplin was right there, and
I said to him, I said, you know, does this
crowd seem it was the outdoor stadium but Siezu's palace right,
so the sound got diffused a little bit into the air.

(20:20):
But I said to Bruce, I said, is this crowd
more subdued or it felt almost subdued? And he said, yeah,
it feels ot And I think we both then kind
of thought, we kind of came to the consensus that
it wasn't that they were subdued. They were so intent
on what was about to happen. They were just concentrated,

(20:41):
and then when the fighters came out to their walk ins,
the crowd was judged. You could feel the electricity and
so during the walk ins, and right at that moment
just before, I guess I was so taken with being
there too, which was you know. I remember thinking consciously
to myself, you are the luckiest human on the planet

(21:03):
to be sitting in this chair. It just was, you know.
And that's when I took my headphones off for a moment,
which producers don't like you to do, and I wanted
to feel the atmosphere. I said, I want to feel
like what I don't want to be removed for a moment,
and it was extraordinary and it became a ritual for

(21:24):
me over the last forty years that in almost every
fight that I do, I do exactly the same thing.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
I'm so glad you just said that now, because I
have to tell you I've been covering fights at ringside
for twenty five years, and one thing I have always
done because like you, I always appreciate the fact that
I'm there, and I've done this for small club fights.
I've been at all the way to the biggest fights
in the world. You know, Mayweather, pac yaw My Tyson fights,
Canelo fights, Oscar fights, whatever is when they're coming into

(21:53):
the ring or when they're doing the anthems, there's some
moment before the fight starts. I've always sort of just
taking a moment, looked around at the crowd and just
sort of like try to put it in my brain
so I remember it. I've done that for as long
as I've been doing this.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
Yeah, I think there's something about it that you don't
want to feel disconnected from the from the the setting
you're in. You don't want it to envelop you. So
you can take a step back and still you know,
be doing your job, not be fan like, but you
do want to feel it.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
So when the fight's happening, I'm curious because you know,
we talked about the chaos of the first round that
they came out and as as TJ brought up what
Ray Leonard said, they're going to come out fast, but
he also at one point said, you know they're going
to settle down and in the second round and box more,
which is who knew that didn't happen, right, Maybe compared
to the first round they did a little bit, yet
not in general. But what I was wondering is, you know,

(22:48):
and now it's sort of known that that when Tommy
landed the big right hand on Hagler on that big
head of his, you know that he broke his hand,
but you didn't really know that in the second round
and the third round how he's throwing it. So I'm
wondering for your vantage points sitting ringside and watching how
this is going. Did anybody in your in the truck
you al Michaels, anybody sort of feel like are have
an inkling that his hand is broken?

Speaker 3 (23:10):
Not really can you hit on it?

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Dan?

Speaker 3 (23:12):
He kept throwing the punch, Yeah, and kept throwing it well,
and so it didn't look like a one handed fighter.
And so we didn't know that that that was the case.
And and to buttress that, and I don't want to
get ahead of you guys, but but it wasn't like
Tommy Hearns had a terrible second round either. People have

(23:34):
a misnomer in their in their brain that oh, after
round one, you know hagleron dim no oh, copy box
numbers and everything will show you that round two. Tommy
Herns is very competitive still, And part of it was
he was still throwing the right hand, So no, we
didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, he was using the reach, he was using the jab.
I I go back to that.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
I don't think any other broadcast anybody conjectured about it,
did they?

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (23:57):
I think I think he kind of whispered it. Maybe
Emmanuel Stewart, you could. You didn't pick it up on
the micro and the microphones that were in the corner,
but he he clearly was on the bicycle, landing the jab,
landing the right hand. In the second round, the fight
kind of settled in. I want to go back to
the very beginning, as Dan let in. You're in mid
sentence and Hearns landed that lethal right that put so

(24:18):
many people out, and it actually stunned Marvin Hagler from
coming in, and you stopped yourself and you said, oh, Mark,
that that hurt Marvin right away. Forty years later, do
you still see that moment? Do you still remember that
moment at Holy Cow? He just stopped Hagler from coming forward,
and it's on now.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yeah, And and I discussed that with Marvin Hagler and
he said to me, on a couple of immifications, that's
the hardest he's ever been hit, you know. And and
let's remember, you know, after that he had a war
with Chian Debist from Gabby and mcgabby was a huge puncher,

(24:59):
but he said that was the hardest he'd ever been hit,
and he was momentarily stunned, never in danger going down
or anything, but clearly, and think about it, that came
seconds into the fight, you know, it wasn't And and
the other part about that, that's so fascinating. Oh, there's
there are three or four questions about this fight that

(25:20):
are fascinating and remain, you know, a topic that you
can think about. The first one is that what happens
if Tommy Hearns doesn't break his right hand? Is this
fight different? I don't know, but that's one of the
lingering things that can be left in your mind from it.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, I am sure that you've been asked this before,
but I've never asked you this, you know. And all
the times we've chatted about different fights, and you've done
not only this fight, all those great showtime fights that
you broadcast, Vasquez Marquez fights and Corralis Castillo, when we
could go on and on, do you when you make
the al Bernstein list of your career of the best

(26:00):
fights you've ever been ringside? The call, where do you
put Hagler versus Hearns.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
I put it one, A, one B. I'm gonna say, uh,
Number one is Castillo Corrales.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
I'm so happy I said that because for me.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Is yeah, only because of course it didn't have quite
the magnitude of despite but I and it's hard, you know,
when you get you get that question, I'm sure all
the time, and everybody does. It's hard to quantify because
there's so many terrific fights that are exciting and well
fought that we've covered and announced over the years. But
the Castillo Corrales is number one because it's Hagler Hearns

(26:41):
times three, and it had the dramatic ending that turned
everything around with the two knockdowns of Corrales, the mouthpiece
going out, him being in a position where he was
never going to win a decision, then and in the
very same round out of nowhere turns it around and
stops Castillo's So between the fact that it was nine

(27:02):
rounds fuck just like the first two rounds of Hagler Hearns,
and it had that amazing ending. To me that has
to be number one, but this one is number two
because of all the magnitude and everything else.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, because that the nine rounds in Carrals Castillo, it
was already an all time fight. In the tenth round
pretty much sent that over the top, it seemed to me.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, yeah, because it was. And the other thing about
it is with no disrespect to them, like Gotty Ward
was fantastic and great, but not fought quite.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
I heard merit.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
Very good. All right, Just another moment or two here
with al Bernstein joining us to talk the fortieth anniversary
of Hagler hearns. Here's another one. How many times do
you think you've watched at least the first round at
this point forty years later? Would you put it at ten?
My guess would be closer to fifty, because my hand

(28:06):
is up that it's at least fifty times I've read
it's more. I'll more all of that first round? What
say you? You lived it? What say you?

Speaker 3 (28:15):
I'm gonna guess I'm in the I might be in
the fifty range, forty to fifty something like that. And
part of that is because sometimes, like I just wrote
a column for Ring magazine about it, right, that's in
this April issue. So that made me go back and
watch it once. And then when you watch it once,
it's hard to just watch it once, isn't it. So

(28:36):
two days later a story and starts. I'm gonna go
back and you visit that one other thing that I
wanted to think about. And I watched it three times
just to do that article. So there's three times right there,
and then other times when you're you know, you need
to look at it, and then other times when it'll
pop up right you're watching something else pops up on

(28:57):
the right hand to the screen and you take a
look at it. And and so yeah, it's uh, you know,
it's a bunch of times, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
And just one more, what should we know that maybe
we don't know about the aftermath of that it's obviously
the pinnacle for Marvin Hagler to have won it. What
else should we know about that night that maybe we
don't know about how great it was anything?

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Well, okay, here's one that to show what a great
fight it was. My friend Gary Shandling, the late Gary Shandling,
who was opening for Joan Rivers at Caesar's Palace, a
person huge boxing fanily owned his own boxing gym, and uh,
you know we loved the sport.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
He came to see the fight but had to be
back to open for Joan Rivers, and he told me
I only had time for a three round fight, and
that's what we got. He said, Look to me, it's
the most perfect fight I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
That is a great life. And I love Gary, I
love Gary.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
Garry Sailing says, it's perfect. I guess, I guess it's
the perfect.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Three in the window. Then he could go open up
for Joan at the at the comedy.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
I've been obsessed with.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
He had to get back, so he was praying for.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
I've been obsessed with these, with this fight in there
and the four Kings nine fights for most of my life.
That's a new one for me and never heard that.
That's all. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
I mean it's it's crazy. Yeah, yeah, no, it's wild.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
So yeah, And I think.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
The to me that the the the aftermath is a
there's a couple of things about the aftermath for me. Okay,
one is and this doesn't get talked about, I don't
think as much as it might. So let's think of
the current day boxing scene. When a fighter suffers a
dramatic defeat like that, right, a devastating one, And let's

(30:56):
go back there. Then Tommy Hearns not only picked himself
up off the canvas in a general sense, a literal sense,
in a general sense. Not only did he get back
on the horse, he crafted a phenomenal career after that,
didn't he yes, people out, winning championships, going up to

(31:19):
the light heavyweight division and upsetting Virgil Hill, winning a
rematch against l Array Leonard, even though they didn't give
him the decision. You know, that moment, that moment of
abject disappointment and losing didn't even come close to stopping him, right,

(31:39):
It didn't pause, It barely paused him. And I think
that's really an important thing to take from that, And
of course from Robert Hagler, he was older than his
age was ever reported, so that was you know, and
then he fought several more years and you know, of
course he had the great fight with mcgobby and very

(32:00):
close loss to Leonard, and Marvin at that point had
already had a long career with those great fights early
in Philadelphia and everything, so he was really in the
twilight of where he was gonna be. But I mean
it was, so I think for the aftermath for Hearns,
it's one that we sometimes don't realize when you look back,

(32:21):
because when you look at that fight, that was a
devastating loss, you know, and at the time, so you know,
it's pretty amazing that he was able to pull himself
together and craft that career afterwards.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
I don't think anybody would have thought that Hagler would
go on as the winner to only fight two more
times in the next two years. And Tommy even though
he had some time off near the end of his career,
but ultimately fought twenty more years.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
That right, that's pretty right. But both of those facts
are surprising. Yeah, that's a very good point.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Dan, and Hearn's won multiple world titles in multiple weight divisions.
Moving up after that night, Listen, what a treat to
have you here. The phrase I love is forever linked.
He is forever linked with Hagler, Hearns and that night.
Al Bernstein, You're a treat on every occasion, but especially

(33:12):
on something like this Hall of Famer on the air
and off the air. Much thanks from Dan and me
for hanging talking the fortieth anniversary. Dan, was this any
good with Al Bernstein? Was good.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
This is pretty good. Maybe not as good as the
fight itself, but it was pretty good.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, not as Yeah, the fight itself was pretty un good.
So now I appreciate it was fun to be with
you guys, and uh, uh you want it's funny. I
forgot that this was until about a week ago when
I started seeing things pop up. I forgot about this
being the fortieth anniversary of it. But hey, we're all
still here and we're doing stuff with boxing, and uh

(33:47):
so that that also is a joy. So yeah, I
appreciate you guys having me on and this last couple
of days, I've had a lot of opportunities to think
about this and uh and chat about it. And it's
fun because it you know, it's a good memory. It's
a you know, it's a it's a and even if
you're not even talking about Tommy, hearns even he when

(34:08):
he talks about this fight, he says it was an
honor to be a part of it, even though it
didn't go the way he wanted to. It's part of
boxing folklore and you can't ask for more than that.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Love it well, said al Bernstein. Thank you, my friend.
Take care guys, Okay, We follow up hearing from legendary
analyst Al Bernstein with legendary play by play man hall
of famer the Barry Tompkins, who was on the call
forty years ago. Good Lord April fifteenth, nineteen eighty five

(34:41):
for the HBO broadcast with Ray Leonard and Larry Merchant
of Hagler Hearns and Barry Tompkins with us right here
as part of the Big Fight Weekend podcast series and
our coverage. It is an honor to have you, I'm
joking on the video show. He's in purple for royalty
and rightfully show whether it should be. Thank you? And

(35:03):
when I say to you April fifteenth, nineteen eighty five,
what immediately comes to mind about what we saw that
night and what we've relived countless times since then, Bury, Well.

Speaker 5 (35:14):
One of the great fights ever, one of the great
fights certainly that I had the pleasure of calling.

Speaker 4 (35:19):
But that particular.

Speaker 5 (35:20):
Round, and I'm almost certain, as I recall it, I
said it somewhere during that first round was the greatest
prout of boxing I've ever seen.

Speaker 4 (35:28):
I can't imagine one more exciting in the history.

Speaker 5 (35:30):
And again, Dan, you know a lot more about the
long history of boxing than I do. But it was
really it was really special, And of course every year
on this anniversary now it's a noteworthy one, being forty years,
but every year I'm reminded about it. Every year it
shows up in social media and you can't get away
from it even if you wanted to. But by no

(35:51):
means do I.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Want to along those lines for a while after the fight.
In the eighties and the nineties, when you were working
fights all the time, did you instantly daily all the time,
have people coming up to you to talk to you
in particular about the first round, if not the Haggler
Herns fight, what about it?

Speaker 5 (36:08):
Yeah, certainly about that fight, and about the Haglow Letter
fight also and the other fight. And I think, Dan,
you and I've talked about this in the past. The
greatest fight that I ever did personally, just in terms
of the caliber of fight was was Arguayo or prior.
You know, some people talk to me about that that
fight as well, But when it comes to specifics about

(36:31):
a certain portion of a certain fight, there's no question
that that one laps the field.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Big Dan, go ahead, Yeah, Barry, I mean, you've done
so many fights for a variety of different outlets you
work for. Obviously, I think you're probably best known for
your stint with HBO, but you did fights for a
lot of different outlets, you know, Showtime, and you know
plenty of others as well. When you think of all
the I don't know, it's probably very got to be
what thousands of fights you've called, I would imagine in

(36:56):
your career. Yeah, probably, I mean, and you mentioned about
Argueyo and Prior, and that's a special fight also, but
like you said, it doesn't have uh, I don't think
it has the worldwide ultimate recognition by nonsport, by non
boxing fans, the way Haggler and Hearns does. But so
if you had to identify a singular fight, is it
Arguayo Prior, is it Hagler Hearns into something else that

(37:17):
we're not thinking about. Because you called so many tremendous
battles through the years, Well, you know the.

Speaker 5 (37:21):
One Dan that that stands out to me was was
Hagler Leonard uh for you know one. I mean, to
this day, and I'm sure this happens to you, people
will say who won that fight? Who really won that fight?
To this day and how many years ago was that
you know almost year.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
I asked, well, well, we'll deviate for a quick second.
Off Hagler Hearns who won the fight won Leonard, Yes,
thank you, I agree.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Good way we make it, We make it unanimous.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Back to uh the Hagler Herns zone.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
We can talk about that. I know you want to
talk about the other fight here.

Speaker 5 (37:55):
There's there's a whole story that goes with that, with
that fight that I've probably told before. But if we
wanted to get into that, we could talk about it.
But sure, let's talk about what you guys want to talk.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
About, no doubt. So when we talked with Al a
little while ago about this, about the magnitude of this,
one of the things that the build up is these
two guys began to get more and more aggravated with
the press tour and with each other. And Ray Leonard says,
when the fireworks started in the first thirty seconds, I

(38:31):
expected this, Barry, he says this to you. Did you
have some kind of feeling they're going to go right
at each other or were you as surprised, maybe as
the rest of us, at how violent it was right
away round one.

Speaker 5 (38:43):
I wasn't surprised, but I wasn't surprised for a different
reason than Ray wasn't surprised.

Speaker 4 (38:48):
I really honestly didn't give her as.

Speaker 5 (38:51):
Much of a chance in that fight, and I'm not
sure Hearns gave her as much of a chance in
that fight. And I think he thought very much like
like Spinks did with Tyson, you know that I'm gonna
just put it all out there in the first three minutes.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Hope I can get him out of there, and if
I can't, I'm done, you know.

Speaker 5 (39:13):
I mean, obviously it's not a conscious feeling, but that
was really what I felt about Tommy Hearns. I really
felt somewhere inside of him he thought that was the
only way he was gonna win that fight was to
get Haggar out of there right now.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Barry, when they made the match, and you know, obviously
you're doing the blow by blow for HBO, and they're
going to be broadcasting this fight, and you have a
couple a few months before the fight is going to
actually happen. I'm curious what your mentality was in terms
of your own excitement level for the fight, because you know,
when fights get made, you always have a visceral reaction.
Oh I love that fight. I can't wait. Some might be, oh,

(39:48):
you know, it's probably okay, But like in terms of
Hagler and Hearns, when you found out, okay, we're gonna
be doing this match, what was your sort of excitement
level for the fight, not knowing that was going to
be as legendary as it turned out to be.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
And I thought was gonna be a good fight. I mean,
you know, I thought it was going to be a
competitive fight. Although as I said, I I really in
my own mind, I really didn't give her as much
of a chance in that fight, to be really honest
with you, and I was a big frankly, I was
a big Marvin Hagler fan, just in terms of how
he prepared for fights and how he handled himself. And

(40:21):
I had a real fondness for him. He was a
guy that I liked outside the ring every bit as
much as I did as a professional fighter. You know,
I spent some time with him up in Provincetown where
he used to train, and I just liked the way
he went about his business. You know, I never thought
he ever showed up. And I've always said this about

(40:43):
the very best fights, you can't be ninety eight percent.
If you're ninety eight percent, you're going to lose at
a fight of that level. And I never saw Marvin
Hagler be less than a hundred percent. Now I'm not
saying Tommy Hearns ever did, but just in how the
two prepared for the fight, not only that fight, all
of their fights for that matter, I just saw a
big difference in Marvin Hagler Perry.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Was the reason that you said you didn't really give
Tommy much of a chance? Was it a matter of
him having been in the smaller weight divisions and Marvin
had been a dominating midaweight champion? Was it because you'd
seen Tommy get knocked out, like, for example, by Ray
Leonard as a welterweight. What was the reason that you
thought that he wouldn't have a chance.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Yeah, the former.

Speaker 5 (41:23):
I just thought he was coming up to one sixty,
and you know, he didn't have a ton of power.
You know, as even as a welterweight, he can get
guys out of there for sure, but at one hundred
and sixty, I just didn't think he'd matched power with Hagler,
you know, and Hagler you know, I Hagler was not
a guy and I say, he's going to get you
out of there with one punch. But what I really

(41:45):
liked about Hagler is if you had your hurt, you're
gone and great finisher.

Speaker 4 (41:52):
But it was mainly what you said, what you suggested.

Speaker 5 (41:54):
It was mainly the fact that he was coming to
one sixty and I just thought that's a natural wait
for Hagler, and I wasn't sure it was a natural
wit for hers.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
So when you see Marvin, you know in the end,
really I mean, the first round obviously super competitive, but
eventually it becomes a dominating, you know, pretty you know,
violent sort of knockout in the third round. And on
that night when you're calling the fight and you think
to yourself, we just saw Marvin Hacklers score this incredible
knockout against another great fighter in Hearns. Even if you

(42:24):
didn't think he'd necessarily had you a chance. What if
I told you on that night that the guy that
won the fight, that knocked out Tommy Hearns in three
rounds and did what he did was going to fight
only two more times over the next two years or retire.
But the guy that got absolutely scorched is going to
go on and win multiple of titles and other weight
classes continue to move up and wait, do it at middleweight,
do it all the way up to light at heavyweight,

(42:45):
and literally fight for another twenty years. What would you as.

Speaker 5 (42:47):
Said to me, I would have got to do it.
And you know what, but I always respected your opinion.
You you know more about boxing than I do, and
I've been around it for a long time. I always
respected your opinion.

Speaker 4 (43:03):
And had you have.

Speaker 5 (43:04):
Told me that, I would have said, oh, yeah, sure,
of course, you know, you know, I wouldn't have believed it.
I you know, more than anything else, I was really
surprised at Marvin. You know, Marvin was such a you know,
he was such a sensitive guy, and I think when
he lost the Ray, he just lost everything.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
He lost his persona.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
You know, it was it because he lost, or because
of the fact that it was the way he lost
and it was so close, and people argued that he
won and he didn't get the call. In other words,
if he had been wiped out, that'd be one thing.
But to lose on a nail bier like that, is
that maybe the difference.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
Yeah, I think that could have affected him.

Speaker 5 (43:39):
You know again, I never really sat down and talked
to him about it, but and I don't know that
he would.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
Talk about it, frankly, but yeah.

Speaker 5 (43:46):
I think, you know, his entire being, not just as
being as a fighter, but a being as a human being.
I think was tied up in that fight, you know.
And and in his mind, I think he felt he
was shamed. And I don't believe he was, you know.
And I believe Ray stole the fight, but hey, that's

(44:07):
part of the sport, you know. And I think that's
how Ray wanted. I think he stole it, and that's
exactly what he told me he was going to do.

Speaker 4 (44:15):
Well. I'll tell you this brief backstory.

Speaker 5 (44:17):
I was again, I really didn't want to get so
much into that fight because we're talking about the other
But when Duran fought Hagler, I fought Herns rather at
the end of the fight, I beg your pardon when
he fought Hagler.

Speaker 4 (44:34):
At the end of the fight, Duran came over.

Speaker 5 (44:35):
And stuck his head between the ropes who when Ray
and I was sitting and said to Ray, you can
beat this guy.

Speaker 4 (44:41):
And I know that's when Ray said.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
I never knew that Barry. I learned stuff from Al
today that I never knew before. Now I'm here for you,
you're saying to me. When the fight ended, even though
he lost that close fight to Haggard, Duran said to
Ray on the HBO broadcast.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
On the broadcast, not on Mike, he came over.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Not not on that, not an interview, but like just came.

Speaker 5 (45:02):
Over, stuck his head between the ropes, leaned up and
array and said, you can beat this guy.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
After he'd already fought Ray twice.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
And so Ray, did you see a Ray reaction? Did
he say anything?

Speaker 4 (45:12):
I didn't.

Speaker 5 (45:13):
But but the oddity is it was about I don't
really recall, but maybe three or four months after that
we were doing it. It was a camacho fight in Florida,
and uh and.

Speaker 4 (45:25):
Ray Ray called me. This is so Ray.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
You know.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Ray called me up and said, I ranted this. I
rented a boat.

Speaker 5 (45:31):
Let's we're gonna go out a lunch up on the
you know, Inland waterway. And uh so he said, meet
me at such and such a doc. So I you know,
I'm expecting ready to come up and you know, so
you know, twenty footer. Of course he's got you know.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
The Queen Mary.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
Yeah, and he and I.

Speaker 5 (45:48):
We were sitting up on the bow of the boat
going up the Inland Waterway and Ray Ray just out
of the blue said.

Speaker 4 (45:55):
You know how to beat Marvin Hagler. Here's how you
beat Marvin Hagler.

Speaker 5 (45:59):
And he said, you got to fight three times around
for fifteen seconds every round, and you got to finish
the final fifteen seconds of the round and look impressive.
And it was two years later. I think a year
that's how we want to fight.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
So how have we had a million interviews, documentaries, stories
in depth pieces And this is the first time I
ever heard this, And I, like I said to TJ
a million times, I've been obsessed with these fights for
my old.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
Life exactly because you got to get Barry Tompkins, the
King in the Purple, to come tell the Sport about
being on the yacht with with Ray Leonard.

Speaker 4 (46:34):
Yeah, you know the you know, the answer to the
question is nobody ever asked.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
The go go another thing. So along those lines, we
need to recreate for people that Ray had retired for
a second time, basically in and around Haggler, hearns and
so that made an interesting backdrop that he's your analyst
along with Larry merchant involved in the fight when Marvin
so much wanted to fight Sugar, Ray Leonard and Hearns

(47:02):
at that time wanted a rematch obviously with Sugar Ray
Leonard having lost to him. What about that aspect from
what you remember, that aspect of Ray still being a
big chess piece for both Hagler and Hearns leading to
their fight.

Speaker 4 (47:16):
You know, Ray was a guy.

Speaker 5 (47:17):
Who kind of he he liked to, you know, conquer bridges,
you know, and he done that already with Tommy Hearns.
You know, I think he felt Hearns is that's why
I already did that. I took care of that business,
you know, and I don't need him anymore. You know,
he needs me, but I don't need him.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
They can make a lot of money together, though, well
I could.

Speaker 5 (47:42):
Yeah, But I think Ray always wanted a piece of Haggler,
I really do. I think he always wanted that. And
you know, there was a time where they were friends.
I remember when Ray opened he had a seafood restaurant
in Baltimore for a a short time, and when he
opened the restaurant, Marvin came to the opening, you know,
and they were they were I mean, they weren't you know,

(48:02):
how you doing Marv kind of friends, you know, but
they were friends, you know.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
And I think Ray in sol I don't remember what happened.

Speaker 5 (48:12):
That night, but Ray didn't really acknowledge that Marvin had
gone out of his way, you know, to come to
this thing for Ray, and Ray kind of distant, you know,
And I think that's really what drew that spark of
Ray saying I think I want to I think I
want to take care of this.

Speaker 4 (48:30):
But it was more than anything else, Believe me, it.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Was durant interesting, Duran saying you could beat him. Man.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Did you ever get a sense, you know, because you
guys had done Marvin's fights, done Hearn's fights before. And
I'm not talking about just because there was, you know,
that sort of irritation with each other leading up to
the fight, because they were in front of each other
getting ready to fight each other. But other than that,
what was your sense of the relationship that Marvin and
Tommy had outside of just that fight taking place?

Speaker 5 (49:00):
Marvin and Tommy, Yeah, I don't. I don't really know
that they had a relationship. I mean, maybe they did.
If they did, I don't really know about it.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
They were such different.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Guys, much different, you know.

Speaker 5 (49:13):
Yeah, I mean that that's one of the things I
really liked in But I can't when I say that
about Marvin, how much I liked him. I'm not trying
to say anything bad about Tommy Hearns. But Tommy was
a never guy. It was all professional with Tommy, you know,
whereas Marvin. You know, I remember I remember going for
a run with Marvin in Provincetown on one of his

(49:36):
morning you know runs, and and at that time it
was in the winter time, so the town wasn't really alive,
you know, like it normally is. But you know, Provincetown
is a very big gay population. In Provincetown, there's a
fishing fisherman population, Portuguese fishermen, uh there, and and everybody
in that town loved Marvin, you know. And I remember

(50:00):
on that run, you know, we ran down through the
main street of town and people would come out of scores,
you know, and out of there's a hairdresser game him Marvin,
you know, and Marven Wood talk.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
You know, I knew him by name, you know, the
little old ladies from the market, you know, come out,
I'm Marvin, marbar Rooks. And then and then he ended
the run.

Speaker 5 (50:20):
By going on board one of the fishing boats and
having coffee with the Portuguese fisherman. You know, so he
just he cut right through you know, everybody. You know
he was he was just a good guy. You know,
I would have liked I would have liked Marvin Hagler
if he was you know, Don Matthew was a fishmonger.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
You know. After he won the fight, and even though
you know, maybe he doesn't know it at the time,
but he's not going to be around and as a
professional boxer for a much longer. He'd been fighting for
such a long time. The Herns fight and that victory
and the way it happened, that's what really put him
into the mainstream. He started getting the commercial endorsements. He's
doing commercials, you know, for you know, the deodor end

(50:59):
He's doing all kinds of different things. Did you get
a feeling at any point when you spoke to him
after the fight that he felt like I made it,
even though he'd been champed for a long time and
been this great fighter. But now he's crossed over and
he's got the admiration and the respect, I think most
importantly from everybody yeah.

Speaker 5 (51:16):
And respect was a big thing for him. You know,
it really was that that's what he wanted. He wanted
it from Ray. You know, yeah, I I do. I
think that fight obviously, you know, people in boxing knew
about Marvin Hagler and how good he was, but I
don't think you know, Joe Sixpack necessarily knew about Marvin Hagler,

(51:39):
you know until that fight.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Now that he's going on the Tonight Show, when he's
making appearances and.

Speaker 5 (51:44):
Right, and because he got cut so badly, and you know,
it really looked for all the world like he was
not gonna not going to even finish the fight.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
Littlone win the fight, you know.

Speaker 5 (51:54):
And and I think that you know, that affected a
lot of people who are not necessarily hardcore boxing fans,
you know, all of a sudden, he was he was
a personality, you know, and respect, Like I said, I
think respect for.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
Him was really it was really an important thing. I mean,
he was a guy. Again, I got to know him
so well. He was a guy that.

Speaker 5 (52:20):
I remember one time he and his then wife they
went on they got a camper and they went on
a camping trip for like four months and just drove
around the country and running these little you know, RV.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
Lots or I don't even know what. I'm not a camper,
so I don't really know.

Speaker 5 (52:36):
But you know, we're just you know, Middle America goes,
you know, and uh.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
And he came back and it was the greatest trip
he'd ever made his life, and at that time he
traveled as a fighter, greatest trip he ever made his life.
Just pressing the flesh.

Speaker 5 (52:50):
With people, going fishing with people, hanging out with you know,
Joe Sixpack, you know, just a guy, you know.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
And I really admired that about Mormon.

Speaker 5 (53:01):
I really did, you know, he he he wasn't necessarily
interested in the limelight. He wasn't necessarily interested. I believe
this is true even in money. You don't obviously wanted
to make as much as he could, and he understood
that that sport is short lived, you know, but it
wasn't the.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Thing to him, you know, mane of the people.

Speaker 5 (53:23):
He was absolutely one hundred percent man of the people.
And I did his fight in San Remo when he
was really embraced by the Italians, you know, And I'm
sure that had something to do with his living there afterwards,
marrying an Italian woman.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
All right, let's bring it back to the opening round,
and you know, and you know where I'm coming where?
All right? So, first of all, Hagler in the first
thirty seconds is initiating things and hearns pops him with
that big right hand. What do you remember some four
decades later about that moment where he didn't drop him,

(53:59):
but he definitely stopped him in his tracks and stunned him. What,
if anything, do you remember about that that he didn't
drop him?

Speaker 5 (54:06):
You know, that punch I think probably would have dropped
most guys, even at one hundred and sixty pounds, but
Marvin had a beard, you know, Marvin. Marvin didn't get
cuffed around very much, you know. And really that's what
I remember more than more than anything else. And he
you know, I mean, the great fighters are able to

(54:27):
do that. You know. Again talking about Ray because I
know him so well in his fight with Marvin.

Speaker 4 (54:32):
There's another thing, Dan, you again, you probably heard this story,
but Ray told me I don't remember what round it was.

Speaker 5 (54:38):
I want to say it was like in the fifth
round that Marvin popped him and heard him, you know,
And Ray said that just it was subconscious but instead
of thinking a backward step. He took a forward step
and threw another punch. It wasn't a big punch, but
Marvin never knew he heard him, you know. And I
think that's kind of analogous to what you're talking about
to when Hearn's hit Haggler, you know, Haggler. I don't

(55:02):
remember taking a backward step, even though he just clocked.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
It, and it probably didn't help by the way that
you know that it appeared as though we found out
later that Timmy had broken the hand, and yeah, he
continued to use it, but it wasn't as effective, right.
I think that did you get the sense that maybe
you didn't know that the hand was broken, but after
he took the right hand, and Marvin really didn't budge
that in Tommy's might like, oh shoot, I mean, if

(55:26):
I can't get him out of it with my best
right hand, I'm in for either a long night or
a short night.

Speaker 5 (55:31):
Yeah, I think, you know, like I said, I think
the whole thing, Tommy Herds was going to go out
on a shield, and I think he did it in
that in the first three minutes.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
I mean, I remember having a conversation.

Speaker 5 (55:42):
I don't remember if I was on talk back with
the truck or if I was talking to I don't
remember who I was talking to, but saying it's over
after the first after the first three minutes, you know,
I'm sorry, my dog.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Is okay, that's allowed to make an appearance. There we go.
You believed it was done. You believed Hagler had the
name after three minutes, and you were saying that to
the HBO people in the truck.

Speaker 5 (56:06):
Is what you're saying after the first round? I did,
so did Ray. We thought, yeah, I did.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
All right.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
So to go back to the middle of that first
round and you know where I'm coming. You finally spoke
for all of us where it's like it occurred to you.
I need to say, this is still the first round
and it resonates forty years later again. I think that.
I mean, if you had to sum up Hagler, hearns

(56:33):
that phrase, sums it up the way that they beat
on each other a minute and a half, two minutes
in the first round, they're still waylaying on each other. Right,
did you take a pause at the end of that
first round and go, Wow, what did I just witness?
For a half a second?

Speaker 5 (56:46):
Absolutely, because you know when when the bell sounds my
eyelighter because Larry was like the analyst and he would
talk between rounds, so as soon as the bell sound
that I.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
Didn't have to say anything.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
But I'm glad I didn't have to say it, you know,
because it was one of those yeah around you know,
you don't have a lot of that. You know, there's
not a lot of And again it's and any any
broadcaster will tell you this, those are things you can't plan,
you know, you can. I've never once said, and I'm
sure if you talk to lamps or talk to anybody

(57:19):
who's done this for any period of time, it's just spontaneous.
It's just what you're feeling at the time. And you know,
sometimes you get them right and sometimes you don't.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
You had so many great calls and all the fights
you've done. I mean I could sit here and cite them,
chapter and verse, ones from yourself, ones from other great broadcasters.
Also when you think of the things that you did,
call to me, there's a few famous Barry Tompkins calls
that to me is the number one evolving and you
had obviously, you know, how do you like it with

(57:51):
Marvin against ray Leander? And there was others, what's the
number one on your own list? Because you're the guy
that said it.

Speaker 4 (57:57):
You know, it's funny. I I walk out of a
booth or away from a table, and it's history for me,
you know, And I really mean it.

Speaker 5 (58:07):
And I think one of the reasons is I didn't
only do boxing, you know. I always did football, always
in basketball. As a tennis guy for a while, I did,
you know, did the Tour de France.

Speaker 4 (58:17):
I did track and field, and you know.

Speaker 5 (58:19):
So, and inevitably, within a week of whatever I happen
to be doing for HBO, I have something else, you know,
And so I never could take like I couldn't take
the Hearns Hagler fight with me into a basketball game,
you know that.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Does anybody call up to you forty years later and
give you a line from one of your basketball games?

Speaker 1 (58:42):
That's a good question.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
No, I mean, how, by the way, not to say
that you didn't call the basketball game.

Speaker 4 (58:46):
No, no, no, not that, not that I can recall.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
But in your mind, I appreciate it. As a broadcaster,
I appreciate this. In your mind, you have to go
on to the next thing, and then the next thing,
and then the next thing. I understand what you're saying.

Speaker 4 (58:59):
Right, I mean, and and I don't.

Speaker 5 (59:02):
I mean, I remember that, you know, saying one of
the greatest grounds because it was something I really felt.
But and the the one that you mentioned in the
in the Leonard Hagler.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Fight, how do you like it?

Speaker 5 (59:15):
Somebody had to remind me. I don't remember ever saying that,
you know, I don't. I don't, And somebody reminded me that.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
All right.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
So along these same lines, you you did the delayed broadcast,
did you say to everybody, and even for yourself, I
we have got to watch this together. Do you remember
who you watched it with? For the for the first
showing where you watched it where I can see this
back the replay?

Speaker 4 (59:38):
I thought it was like a right all and I
have talked about that. I don't remember. He did the
live shows while.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
You were doing HBO, which was going to be replayed
one week later. But but Al Bernstein and L. Michael's
were doing the live.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
That's right. You used to do shows where ABC had
the replay and we had.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Yeah, all right, So how many times would you guess
you have to have seen it a few? How many
times would you say that you've rewatched Tagler Herns if
not just the first round, Dan, I confess it's dozens
for us, But what about for you?

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:00:14):
I know, I well, I almost have to watch it
every year, you know, because it's all over social media.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
I've watched it a few times after, you know, after
it happened.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
But you know, I honestly, I've never been one of those.
Boy that was great. I want to watch it again,
you know, of my own stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
I understand, But the version of it, yeah, you can
also watch the other watch the.

Speaker 6 (01:00:40):
Close circuit version, yes, yeah, but with with the magnitude
of that first round, I mean, I'm still amazed every
time I watch it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
They forget about the call, just the violence of those
two guys. Does it still amaze you that you were
part of that? Hell yeah? And the volume either and
neither guy went down with the what one hundred and
fifty or two hundred punches that were landed. It seemed
like in that round, neither guy went downbury There was.

Speaker 5 (01:01:09):
The volume as much as anything else, I think, And
I don't remember a lot of jabs, you know, I mean,
it was all power.

Speaker 4 (01:01:15):
Punches, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:01:17):
Yeah, No, when I said it and I still it's
still true greatest round of boxing I've ever seen, not
only I've ever called, but I've ever seen.

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
You know, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:01:27):
But we also knew that that can't go on. One
of these guys is gonna drop, you know, at one.

Speaker 4 (01:01:33):
Point or another.

Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
And we really did feel that that that Hearns had
really shot himself in the first round, you know, we
I just didn't believe he had anything left.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
I really didn't.

Speaker 5 (01:01:44):
But you know the other thing that I thought about,
It's funny, I was just thinking about it today and
I had thought about it before, is that that cut
was really a nasty cut. And I really wonder Dan,
if if that fight were held now, would they have
stopped that fight?

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Did Duane rounds?

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Maybe? I actually, because of the magnitude and who the
guys were, I would say, especially in Vegas, knowing that
they know their stuff, I actually would say probably not.
They would have let it go a little longer to
see if it got worse.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
If you remember, were you concerned when Steel called time
Richard Steel the referee and took him over the doctor.
They may say that cut is too bad, you even remember.

Speaker 5 (01:02:23):
It was a nasty cut. I don't remember how it
looked on television, but it was you were there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
I'm sure, but that probably gave Marvin a lot more
urgency to do what he did the rest of the rest.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
Sure, for sure. Yeah, I'm sure he was thinking this
is going to get stopped at some point.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
You know, and he's gonna feel like if that happens.
I mean, I don't I'm thinking about this, knowing his career.
He's like, I got screwed in England when I fought
Mint there, you know what I mean, when they are
not not mentor when I fought Anti Fermo got a draw.
When I finally won the title against Minter in England,
I got screwed because I didn't get to celebrate because
they went crazy and started throwing stuff in the ring.
And I'll be damned if I'm going to them screw

(01:03:00):
me on this big fight with a cut like that.
So I'm gonna go out there and get this dude
out of here.

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
Yeah, I'm sure that. I'm sure that was in Mark Marvin.

Speaker 5 (01:03:08):
Marvin was just such a pro though, you know, and
as I said, he was one of the best finishers
I can remember.

Speaker 4 (01:03:14):
You know, Ray was a great finisher. Also, you know,
if you're hurt, it's over.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:03:20):
And and I kind of think Marvin, that's kind of
the way you went about things, you know. He you know,
I I don't know that he's that he has a
process that he's thinking. Boy, if I don't get this
guy out of here, they're going to stop this fight.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
Maybe in retrospect, sorry about this.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
Okay, we were animal lovers.

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
Oh good, good, she's been sleeping all day.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Now now she wants to be part of the show,
part of it. But yeah, but Marvin, Marvin definitely had
the urgency. R so one more before we get you
out of here. Same question we asked with al what
do we not know? You gave us a lot of
what we don't know? But what do we not know
about Hagler? Hearns that maybe we should know, like later
that night when he took the headsets off, anything, anything
that else that comes to mind, that maybe we should

(01:04:06):
know about that, that the public maybe at large, doesn't
know about that famous night in nineteen eighty five.

Speaker 5 (01:04:11):
Anything, Oh, you know, only that I always thought of
Marvin Hagler, as I said, as the consummate profession you know,
and I think I'm sure that he felt like he
had to be on the gas, you know. He you know,
he couldn't if he was going to go out.

Speaker 4 (01:04:25):
He was going to go out on a shield, just
like Hearn's, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:04:29):
And I felt that. I'm sure he felt there was
a sense of urgency. I don't know that he.

Speaker 4 (01:04:37):
I never saw him as really this calculating kind of
kind of guy like Ray was. I don't know. I'm
not sure Marvin was, you know, but I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:04:47):
Sure he felt a sense of urgency. I'm sure he felt,
you know, I need to do this sooner rather than later.
And he, you know, he was gonna he wasn't going
to just pace himself. He was gonna do everything he
could do to get the guy out of there as
quickly as you could get the guy out of there.
But I think that's more just instinctual than anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
Well, I have one more for you. And I pondered
this myself because I am, as I've said, I'm very
obsessed not only with this fight, but with all of
the Four King fights. Forty years later, a lot of
people obsessed the about a fight the last eight minutes
and fifty two seconds forty years ago.

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
Why, yeah, that's the boxing fan.

Speaker 5 (01:05:26):
I think, you know, it's not normal, Yeah, except that
I think people, you know, I think I think people
remember the moment, you know, rather than the event, you know.
Like That's one of the reasons that I always say
Haggard Leonard was, for me, was the biggest fight I

(01:05:48):
ever did, because.

Speaker 4 (01:05:48):
It was a whole. It was a lead up to it, yep.

Speaker 5 (01:05:51):
And I remember when when the fighters were first seen,
Remember they before they started the ring walk, there was
a the crowd.

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
The way the crowd went up, it was palpable, you know,
I mean you could feel it. That was before a
punch was ever thrown.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
I agree with you that that was a bigger fight
from the magnitude of the event than the Hearns and
Hagler fight. It's just that hers, Isn't it fair?

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Isn't it fair that part of that build up is
because Hagler had destroyed Hearns and now everybody can't he
do it to Ray Leonard and are coming out of it,
and added to it the destruction of Hearns two years earlier, obviously.

Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
Of course. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:06:29):
I just think boxing fans have a tendency to remember
the moment rather.

Speaker 4 (01:06:34):
Than the fight.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Sure, listen, we remember so much about this. You have
been great with us. Thank you. You look fantastic. Rayel
and I were excited when you got back to me that, hey,
we are going to get a chance to talk to
Barry Tompkins about April fifteenth, nineteen eighty five. You were
there again forever and always we love. This is still

(01:06:57):
the first round in the middle of that round.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
That was heartfelt, believe me. I mean that was you know,
in a career you have.

Speaker 5 (01:07:09):
If you're lucky, you have five or six things like that,
you know, five or six moments like that, And for me,
that was, you know, certainly one of them, you know,
And yeah, you know, and you just you go to
bed that night you think, I hope I said the
right thing at the right time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
You know you did.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
So we're still talking about forty years later, Barry, I
guess you did.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
You did for me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
Later.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
There you are.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
I'm gonna watch it when we're done, when we get done.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
It's funny. I just showed it to my son just today,
knowing I was going to talk with.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
You again, and it holds up. Listen, my friend, thank you.
This was our honor to have you here sincerely.

Speaker 5 (01:07:49):
We mean that it was an absolute pleasure anytime. And Dan,
great to see you, Great to.

Speaker 4 (01:07:54):
Talking with you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
That's very pleasure as always.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
Thank you, Barry Tompkins pleasure wow wow wow. And I
want to say a personal public thank you to both
Al Bernstein and Barry Tompkins, who did not hesitate Dan Rayfield,
not even Brannano. Second. When I contacted both of them,
I got separately, I got an answer from both of
them with literally within thirty minutes. In Barry Tompkins case,

(01:08:18):
I got an answer back in like ten minutes on yes, absolutely,
when can we do something about Rayfield? Something about yeah,
I want to do this for Dan.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
So these are Barry Tompkins and Bernstein, They're just great people,
genuine guys. Jen I've had the great privilege to know
both of them for many, many many years my entire
boxing writing career twenty five years. I've probably known Al
a bit better because I've been around them a lot
more because Barry wasn't doing many of the big fights.
But Barry is as nice and as a good dude

(01:08:48):
to hang with and talk shop with as anybody. Al
Bernstein the same thing. So it was a real thrill
to get not only get them on the show, but
to talk about such a topic.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Okay, so did we know about the Gary Shandling thing,
the comedian with Joe Rivers and the fightings. We love that,
as we said with Al. And then how about Barry
Tompkins went and ran, jogged literally with Marvin Hagler through
Providence Town, Massachusetts. And then he shared the story and
you were blown away. You're still blown away because you

(01:09:18):
had not heard this before about Duran and what he
said to Ray Leonard.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
Like I said, I have seen documentaries, I've studied these fights.
I've talked to people involved. I've watched and read and
been doing so far, you know, most my adult life
and even as a teenager. So to hear a nugget
like that that it was Duran after he loses a close,

(01:09:42):
very tough fifteen rounder against Marvin Hagler, to go between
the ropes to say to Ray his great rival, who
he already thought twice, who's doing the show for HBO,
And to tell Ray Leonard you can beat Hagler. And
that's what maybe it got the wheels turning more than
I already were. I know, the fight didn't happen right away.
It was still about an hour, you know, years later,
and but Ray wasn't like super active anyway, he was

(01:10:04):
in retirement. That to me was a that's a mind
boggling nugget. So I was. I'm glad that they shared
it with us on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
How about that again? Thank you to both of those
guys for sharing all of this. All right, so we've
been here a little while. What do we say in
closing forty years later about again Al Michaels's line, because
we didn't share it, is how much longer can this go?
At this pace? Not very long? At this pace, Al
says Barry Topkins. This is still the first round with

(01:10:31):
them waylaying on each other. What else do we want
to say about the legend of Hagler Hearns forty years on.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
It's just a mythical fight. I mean, it's it's rare
in sports, in life that you have an event that
not only meets the moment and lives up to the hype,
but exceeds it. I think even though Hagler and Hearns
only lasted for less than three full rounds, I think
it definitely exceeded it. And you have larger in life
characters for different reasons, part of a great foresome. Along

(01:10:58):
also with Duran and Leonard, they defined the nineteen eighties,
which was a glorious time for boxing. It's a time
in boxing where for at least a good portion of
the decade was not dominated by the heavyweights. It was
dominated by these guys because it was post Alley and
it wasn't now Mike Tyson was making his way up
and obviously became a legend, you know, in the latter

(01:11:19):
part of the nineteen eighties. He won the title in
nineteen eighty six, but from nineteen eighty until nineteen eighty six.
While there was obviously lots of great fighters in boxing,
like there always isn't every era, them those four they
sort of made each other for a lot of different reasons.
So even when Tyson was doing his thing in the
latter part of the nineteen eighties eighty six to eighty nine,
you know, these guys were still the front pages. They

(01:11:41):
were well known characters. They were known to the public.
Besides boxing fans. You could walk down the street and
I don't care if you're not a boxing fan, you
would still know who Sugar Ray Leonard was. He was
of the four Kings. He was the guy that made
you know in the to use the baseball parlanst of.
He was the straw that stirred the drink. Like the
other three guys were great in their own right, but

(01:12:04):
Ray was the one that made it revolve around him,
which is why if you look at the nine fights,
he fought more of them than the other guys did.
But the other guys thrived in the fights that did
not include Ray and Hagler Hearns. Let's say, of the
non Ray Leonard involved bouts of the of the of
the great matches between them, clearly the biggest, best, most
famous in terms of the action. I know some people

(01:12:26):
will say, you know of ones that involved Ray, he
had bigger ones with Hearns and with Marvin and obviously Duran,
But uh, look it, like I said, it's a mythical
fight and it will never not be a mythical fight
at the stage of forty years.

Speaker 1 (01:12:39):
Later, greatest first round ever ever, and that has stood
up forty years later, indeed still amazing that neither guy
went down from all of that violence, each of them,
each of them landing like seventy eighty punches or more
in that in that opening round crazy listen, I've had
a blast reminiscing. Was this any good? We kind of

(01:13:01):
put this together over the course of a couple of days.
Oh my lord, thank you again publicly, Al Bernstein, Thank you,
Barry Tompkins. Amazing stuff with the late marvelous Marvin Hagler
in his knockout of Thomas Hearns forty years later. We
remind you that, however you found us on this podfeed,
we're here reviewing going into the weekend Thursday night to Friday,

(01:13:24):
recam coming off the weekend Sunday and Monday, and then
special occasions like this. You need to be following and
subscribing on the podcast feed.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
And by the way, if you're watching us on the
YouTube channel, subscribe to the YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Absolutely same thing, because we put this up as a
video here as well on the YouTube channel. With these
great guests that we have. How about two Hall of
Fame broadcasting legends being here with us as well. Love
it all right, my friend, We go about the business
of present day boxing, but it's always great to reminisce,
and man, you know what we're both doing. After we

(01:13:55):
say goodbye on this We're gonna go watch. We're gonna
go watch Ackler Hearns. This is still the first round
again coming up. Thank you Dan Rayfield, great stuff. As always,
bet I am merely TJ. Reeves. If you're only hearing
us again, come find the YouTube page. Come find the
video as well of this edition the Big Fight Weekend

(01:14:15):
YouTube page. Follow subscribe to the Big Fight Weekend podcast feed.
For now, We're good. On the anniversary of Hagler Hearns
here on this special edition on the Fight Preach to
Night podcast

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