April 4, 2024 • 30 mins
Author and journalist Suzanne Aslam returns for Part 3 of her update on the Palestine conflict.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
And now part three of our four part special with
Palestinian American human rights major and former Miss arab USA
Suzanne Osler. This is the Black Information Network Daily podcast
and I'm your host rams this job. For those just
(00:26):
tuning in, we are having a conversation with Suzanne Oslom,
a friend of the show I hope personal friend as well. Now,
thank you for being my first Palestinian friend.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh, it's a pleasure, it's an honor.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
She is a human rights major, a former Miss arab USA,
an actress as well as an activist turned writer, and
she's a naturally a Palestinian American woman. She's spent time
in Palestine working with the peacekeeping team and has a
deep personal understanding of the ACA patient. She has family
on the ground Palestine, and I do want you to
(01:05):
follow her social media. She is at the Actor Vist.
The last part of the show, we were talking about
Joe Biden, really Joe Biden talking out of both sides
of his mouth at the State of the Union address, right,
(01:25):
he's funding the genocide that he now is condemning Israel
for right. And we were and partly that we were
talking about how the narrative has shifted in favor of
the Palestinians away from the Israeli government. There was one
part that we did not get to, and there's a
couple of other things that I want to talk about,
(01:47):
things that have developed since our last conversation. The two
state solution that Biden suggested was the only path forward.
I'll be honest heard two state solution. Yeah, I don't
know what it means. I think I know what it means.
I know what it sounds like she means, right, But
(02:09):
I don't know what it means. And I don't know
if that's really what, in your opinion, is the long
term solution here. If it is the long term solution,
does Joe Biden get half a point for saying that quote,
you know, two state solution thing in a State of
the Union address. I'm not a Joe Biden fan, by
(02:31):
the way, but I know this is the part of
the journalism that we have to ask these questions. And
before you answer, I want you to know that I'm
well aware of, and indeed applaud the efforts of the
Arab community, the Middle Eastern community on the ground in Detroit,
(02:52):
letting their voices be heard by the Democrat I vote
Democrat in every election, but that doesn't mean the Demo
had to do right by black people. And I think
that black people could learn from what the the middle
Eastern population in Detroit did by voting uncommitted none of
(03:17):
these candids whatever it was, and I think uncommitted sounds better.
It was a small trimmer, but it was enough to
I believe, affect Joe Biden's agree Yeah, his State of
the Union address and indeed put forth something that felt
very strong in him saying the only long term solution actually,
(03:39):
let me not misquote him, the only real solution is
a two state solution. That's a direct quote from Joe
Biden during his State of the Union address. So two
state solution, go.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I don't know how that would work.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I go back and forth on one state or two state,
and Palestinians go back and forth on one. And that's
our internal debate that we are allowed to have. Not
all Palestinians are on the same page about every single policy,
you know, just like any.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Group of people.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
The two state solution is highly impossible in my mind
if you think about the way that the country of
Palestine looks.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So that's what I was wondering.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, so first of all, we technically would be getting
Gaza on the West Bank, right, they're not connected, so
that's weird, but they're very close. But then you have
this whole strip of Israel in the middle of it
within the West Bank. According to the nineteen sixty seven
borderlines that were created after the Sixth Day War, we
were supposed to just get the West Bank. That didn't happen.
(04:48):
Israel illegally moved settlers into the West Bank. So they
have Israeli settlers in these like really gorgeous settlements that
they've built. Sometimes they just kick people out of their
own homes, but sometimes they actually will take land and
then build these communities that are they're Jewish only they're segregated.
(05:09):
It's complete apartheid, and it's actually really interesting. On a
separate note, you can actually say that even though Palsenians
are the ones experiencing apartheid, Israeli's experienced segregation because they're
segregated from the Palasinian population. They don't get to interact
with the Palsinine population. There are signs in Arabic, English
(05:29):
and Hebrew warning the Israeli settlers not to come into
our towns because it's dangerous quote unquote, even though they're
the ones with the weapons, and the Israeli settlers will
come into our towns and do whatever they want and
bully and harass. And I've watched I've watched them Ramsey's
with my own eyes. Harassed school children trying to get
(05:51):
to school in the morning. Is really adult Israeli settlers.
I've watched them attack school children trying to get from
one town to another, one village to another where their
little school is. And yet we're the ones that are
dangerous and there, so they're trying to keep their population
away from us. So if they're building these permanent settlement structures,
(06:16):
how does that, How does the West think become ours?
What becomes Palestine? If you've already brought a half a
million people into this tiny, tiny little piece of land
and kept them there permanently, how do we get it?
Do they become Palestinians. That's not going to happen. There
israeally citizens, and they want to be Israeli citizens. They
(06:37):
don't want to be Palsie. They would have to leave,
and the idea of them leaving and trying to deal
with that just seems so unrealistic. So then you go, Okay,
one state solution. That sounds fair, right, like we all
live harmoniously together South Africans, did it? Sure? It is
really unlikely to see that, to see a world where
(07:01):
Israeli politicians are willing to communicate on an equal playing
field with Palestinian politicians. Yeah, that's where because currently there
are Palsenians living inside of Israel. So we call them,
we call them forty eight. They're from nineteen forty eight.
They're Palsenians who never left that part of Palestine and
(07:22):
got integrated into the Israeli population. They even though they
have Israeli citizenship, they are still treated by officials and
by oftentimes many citizens, not all citizens, but many citizens
as second class citizens. So there's really not a world
inside of Palestine where Palestinians feel like they would ever
(07:43):
be equal to Israelis. So I don't know how this
works when you're arguing one state to state. There's pros
and cons to both, depending on how far we are
willing to go.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Okay, so how about this? I how I say this.
There's a person who's an activist. His name is Sean King,
familiar with him, he said something that rattled me. Sean
(08:20):
King is an activist across the board, but during this time,
he says, oh, Joe Biden needs to step up, condemn
this action, blah blah blah whatever, and Joe Biden did
not do that, certainly not at that time. Then more
videos came out, and Sean King was the one sharing
(08:41):
these videos when he was still on Instagram. Then he
said something. After some time of calling for the President
of the United States to condemn this activity, he says,
you know what, I will never cast a vote for
this man as long as I live. I cannot do
it in good conscience. And that rattled me because the
(09:04):
alternative is really, really, really bad, right what I understand
why he said that, And I don't like it, but
I love it, right, Like when I'm talking about the
(09:25):
Arab American community in Detroit, I don't like that, but
I love it. And I hope that you listening to me.
I hope you get what I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, because there's not a proper alternative.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Right, but I love the fact that it's like, well, look,
none of these works, so we're doing none of these right,
So that part I'm with it. Right, and you know,
and also I try to be fair. You know, I'm
not just on this show, not just on Civic Cipher,
not just you know, when I have a microphone and
an audience. I try to be fair in my regular life.
(09:57):
I think that that's the right way to be. I
know what it is, and so I just do the
thing that is right. I try to you know what
I mean. Maybe I don't know, but in my heart
it's right. Right. So I'm not going to steal. I'm
not gonna bear a false witness. We're going to site
the Ten Commandments, right, I'm not going to do these things.
Granted there's some nuance, the ors, some things like that,
(10:19):
but I follow my heart. I try to do this right.
In other words, I don't believe that I'm a bad person.
So when I try to be fair, I will call
it a spade, too little, too late. But it's not nothing.
You've heard me say that. But we're on this show, right.
So when Joe Biden says with his whole chest, the
(10:39):
only let me not misquote them, the only real solution
is a two state solution. To me, that suggests again
I'm not a fan of Joe Biden, what credit where
it's doe if indeed there's credit here, and you're the
person who can tell me better than I can tell
myself with respect to this, because if I want to
(11:01):
say Palestinian people on the ground are my brothers and sisters,
I have to let you say it first, right, But
I'm going to say this because this is the way
that I've interpreted these words. Okay, If he says the
only real solution is a two state solution, to me,
that suggests he is conceiving of and indeed sharing with
(11:28):
the world, the concept of a future of Palestinians. So
right there, that means we do not wish to see
Palestinians eliminated from planet Earth. That's not nothing, because Hitler
was really awesome, Like we want to see the Jews
eliminated from planet Earth. Right now, I'm not clapping for Hitler.
(11:51):
I'm not clapping for Joe Biden. But he did say
that in the State of the Union. It wasn't on
a microphone, he wasn't getting interviewed. He was stated, he prepared,
he knew he was going to say that, And I
believe that that has to on some level lie in
the face of what I believe a lot of is
pro Israeli folks feel, which is, the world would be
(12:14):
better off without a state of Palestine. This all belongs
to Israel, or the world would be better off without
Palestinian people. Right now, Again, that's not nothing. That is
no way would ever be a defense of Joe Biden.
But the reason I frame it that way is when
(12:36):
it's not nothing, and black people and I'm not speaking
for all black people, but I know that this is true.
Black people, we're very, very used to taking very very
tiny baby steps forward, right, and we will put forth
something that says, hey, we want all of this, and
we'll end up with ten percent of it, and that's
(12:58):
not zero, and we'll take the ten percent and we
revisit the fight in five years or ten years, or
in another two decades. Right. And so this incremental progress
that's very slow and very disheartening for a lot of
people who wished to get more. When you take a
step back and you look at the entirety of the
progress of black people in this country, you're able to see, oh,
(13:20):
this does not work in the scale of the lifetime.
I'm not going to live in the world that I
want to live in sure, my grandchildren might live in
that world, and it breaks my heart because I have
actual children that won't get to live in that world either. Right,
But as a result of me acknowledging that truth, I
(13:44):
recognize that when it's not nothing, that means it's something.
And so I suppose my question is does it matter?
And if the answer is no, the answer is no. Again,
you're the person here to tell me what the truth is. Right,
(14:04):
But does it matter that Joe Biden has said at
least that one part out loud with his whole chest
in front of the world.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
No, okay, it doesn't. Who cares what he says?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
If he sends ten million dollars a day to dismantle Palestine.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Who cares? They're just words. Put your money where your
mouth is. Geneside, Joe.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
They say these things, and you see it in every
residential cycle. They say the things that sound really good
to get elected. And also, we've been talking about a
two state solution for a few decades now.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
This isn't I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, this isn't new. This has been the argument back
and forth. Meanwhile, while we're having this debate, Israel is
confiscating more and more of Palestinian land in the West Bank.
It's part I know, yeah, And so we sit there
and have this conversation. We can go to the State
of the Union and clap for his two state solution,
but then they're still taking more land, so it's going
(15:08):
to be impossible to actually achieve. But it's really nice
because you said it and you thought it, so you
know you were well intentioned. I mean, you weren't because
you funded that. But we've been talking about this for
a really long time. Clinton was trying really hard to
get this through. This isn't anything new, but it's so
(15:32):
difficult to even talk about that because we have to
end the occupation first.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Okay, So that so put a pin in the occupation
because I want to talk about that solutions. You and
I are very good at enumerating problems, and I think
we're just as good at discussing solutions, but often enough
the clock runs out. I mean, so here's what I
(16:01):
want to do. I want to talk about solution. First
thing I'm going to say is I would like for you,
at some point in your response to discuss you can
make a note of it. This is going to be
a two Parterkay, here we go. I would like for
(16:22):
you to discuss what a solution looks like in the
occupation or you know, maybe maybe it's just so people
can conceive of it. Sure, because we're all trying to
figure this out. But for the individuals, those of us
listening to these episodes that you and I are recording.
You know, you're an actor. You're more informed about this
(16:43):
than ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of the
people on Earth. Right, you have more information than probably
even higher number than that, Right, So this is a
moment for us to look to you to conceive of
what a future might look like. Now, obviously there's a
political outcome, and you know you mentioned in the occupation
(17:05):
that might be part of the solution. But what can
we do on the ground? And I want to start
that by saying there was a video. We're bringing folks
up to speed on developments. Since you and I last
spoke about this, there was a video that came out.
There was a young man in the video. His name
(17:26):
was Aaron Bushnell, Okay, and in the video he's talking
about how he's a US soldier. And I won't play
(17:54):
the video again. It's very he has done his protest
he has sacrificed for what he believed was right. And
if you feel that watching that will bring you the
clarity and the clarification that you need. Because I'm not
articulating his words the right way, feel free. But I
want to celebrate his protest. I want to celebrate his life.
(18:15):
But the video is of his death and that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Is that he recorded.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
He recorded it right, So in his last moments on earth,
he was very hurt by what was happening in Palestin
And because I think it matters, he is a white.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Man, yeah, young man twenty five.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, so you know. And he's walking in front of
the Israeli embassy and he's discussing is inevitable act of
protest against the State of Israel and against the United
States and the treatment of the Palestinian people on it
(19:01):
in Palestine in Gaza, and he says, the sacrifice that
I'm going to make today hail's in comparison to what
it is that they're dealing with. But my hope is
that this will bring attention to something like this. It
was very it wasn't quite as poetic as you know,
(19:23):
you and I mentioned Palestinian. His words about Jewish people
beautifying the land. But it was the spirit and the thoughtfulness.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
He said, I will not be complicit in genocide.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
There you go, And it just was a gut punch.
It had to be a gut punch for anybody who
values human life and thinks that it's special and recognizes
that it's a one in a trillion's possibility that this
one individual could exist at this one point in time.
And he decided to sacrifice that magic to bring attention
(19:59):
to thing that he felt was wrong. He walks in
front of the He walks in front of the embassy,
the Israeli embassy. He pours a liquid on himself, sets
himself on fire's camera still rolling, and his last words were.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Re Palestine, Re Palestine.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Okay. Now when you see that and you realize, like
I did over the course of however many months, that hey,
these body parts that they're pulling out of this rubble,
it looked like they could fit on my son's body. Yeah,
(20:47):
that what if this was me? I realized that. I
don't mean to be graphic, but there there was a
person holding a leg trying to find the body of
the baby it belonged to, so that they could give
the baby a proper bear. The baby they didn't get
a chance to grow up. Let me tell you something,
if you're listening right now, my son is learning how
(21:12):
to play the guitar. Okay, my son deserves to grow
up and learn fully how to play the guitar. And
that baby whose body part they took out of that
rubble doesn't get that chance. And the only reason is
because they were born over there, not because that baby
deserves that, not because my son deserves to learn the
(21:32):
guitar more than that. Right. And when you hear that
and you realize that, it makes you feel like I
should be doing more than what I'm doing. I don't
deserve any of this. I'm not. Everybody works hard, everybody
works hard, everybody smart, everybody is creative, and everybody he
(22:00):
deserves a fair shot at everything, right, and not everybody
gets it. And that's the thing that we push back against.
You're with me here, Yeah, So I recognize that there
are levels to sacrifice. I recognize that there are levels
(22:23):
to engagement. But to the people doing nothing who are
listening to this conversation today, who feel compelled to do something,
I will speak for them. We are coming to you,
our sister to ask second partner, what can what more
(22:47):
can we do?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Oof got heavy in here? Uh, we don't. We don't
want to be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
And this.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
War that isn't a war, this annihilation. You know, if
you really thought that land was yours, you wouldn't destroy it.
You wouldn't rip up three thousand year old olive trees.
And there's videos of palsine women with their arms thrown
around an olive tree. Because this is our livelihood and
(23:31):
it's a part of the land and it's a part
of us. If you really thought that that was yours,
you wouldn't. You wouldn't rip it up the way the
Israelis do. So anyway, it's an annihilation of a land
and our people. And it's tiring, Like I don't want
to talk to you about a man who held pieces
(23:54):
of his children in two plastic bags. It's horrific and
it's exhausting to listen to and you want to tune
it out because we're not meant to take in all
of this.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
It's too much. It's too much.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I took a genocide in the Holocaust class in college,
and I cried every day that I left that class
because it was too much. And it never should have
gotten to that point. And sometimes it's just easier to
turn it off. I've never seen Schindler's List because I
can't because my heart it would just rip. I can't.
It's just too it's too painful. I'm like, oh, I
(24:29):
get the gist of it and that's enough, and I can't.
So what we're asking is for you to not turn
away and not look away, and not get tired of us,
because this affects the whole world.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It really really does.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
I'm not saying this because I'm a Palestinian. I'm saying
this because I know because I've seen it, and I've
lived it, and I've experienced it, and I've watched the
political theater that happens around it. What happens in Palestine
affects all of us. And if I can't pull it
your heart string from human to human and say please,
don't forget about us, we matter, then I would pull
(25:07):
at your heart strings because this affects you any your children.
You have to keep talking about it. They're banning TikTok
or trying to because our voices matter. Sharing stories actually works.
(25:28):
Elevating the voices of Palestinians on the ground, not mine.
The ones on the ground, the journalists or the young
people who've turned into journalists.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Who are being.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Targeted by Israel for their voices. They've killed I think
one hundred and twenty journalists the last time I counted,
because they're afraid of our voices, and so we need
the international community to elevate the voices of the people
on the ground and make sure that they are heard everywhere.
(26:02):
So that's a really big one. Boycotting is a really
big one, and you can follow the Palestinian boycott movements.
It's called BDS Boycott, divestment and sanctions, and it's really easy.
We're like, hey, don't spend your money at these crap
food chains, and it makes a difference. People are starting
to notice because your dollar is your vote, and now
we've switched the we've been able to share the truth.
(26:25):
The narrative has switched into the truth. So we have
to keep that elevated and not let it get smothered.
And then we also take our finances. We vote with
our dollar, and that scares governments because governments are corporations.
And if we can stifle that together, I think that
that can do a lot of good and it makes
(26:47):
that's how we is, the people find power.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Okay, I want to add some thing here before we
switched to the other part of the question. M It's funny.
I I've heard about the worst pain that a person
can endure, and once upon a time I heard that
(27:23):
the worst pain that a person can endure as childbirth.
And then I heard passing a kidney stone is worse.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's the argument which one's worse.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And then I heard no, getting cheated on is the worst.
And then I witnessed a woman watch her mother forget
who she was, and she told me that being forgotten.
(28:06):
So I remember that conversation and I realized, yep, that's
the worst one, so patful. So you know, I'm not
going to forget you. Thank you, and I'm not going
to let anybody else forget you. I have a microphone
in an audience. I still got my my bracelet, my
(28:27):
Free Palestine bracelet. And again I want to remind folks
that this is in no way a condemnation of Jewish people.
I love Jewish people have since day one, will until
my last day.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Shame on the Israeli government, Shame.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
On that stuff in the name of Jewish.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Appropriating people's faith and using it against.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
The whole world.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And to be fair, I am a journalist and I
as I mentioned in the beginning of our talks that
we've been having, that I do have a standing offer
with Amy Horwitz, who is a pro Israel, pro Israeli correspondent,
to come on to this show and say his piece.
I would be very critical dispositions. Admittedly, I will admit
(29:09):
my bias, and I've done the research and what has
been verified and validated and checked out certainly supports my
opinion in this matter. But you know, far be it
from me to only highlight one side. But I will
say to you, my sister, that I will not forget you.
(29:34):
That is there happiness, not the worst pain. And your people,
I believe they've been through enough pain. So this concludes
Part three of our or part special with Palestinian American
human rights major and former Miss arab USA Suzanne Osla.
Check back in with us tomorrow for Part three right
(29:56):
here on the Black Information Network Daily Podcast with me
your hosts to Drings this job. Part
And now part three of our four part special with
Palestinian American human rights major and former Miss arab USA
Suzanne Osler. This is the Black Information Network Daily podcast
and I'm your host rams this job. For those just
(00:26):
tuning in, we are having a conversation with Suzanne Oslom,
a friend of the show I hope personal friend as well. Now,
thank you for being my first Palestinian friend.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Oh, it's a pleasure, it's an honor.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
She is a human rights major, a former Miss arab USA,
an actress as well as an activist turned writer, and
she's a naturally a Palestinian American woman. She's spent time
in Palestine working with the peacekeeping team and has a
deep personal understanding of the ACA patient. She has family
on the ground Palestine, and I do want you to
(01:05):
follow her social media. She is at the Actor Vist.
The last part of the show, we were talking about
Joe Biden, really Joe Biden talking out of both sides
of his mouth at the State of the Union address, right,
(01:25):
he's funding the genocide that he now is condemning Israel
for right. And we were and partly that we were
talking about how the narrative has shifted in favor of
the Palestinians away from the Israeli government. There was one
part that we did not get to, and there's a
couple of other things that I want to talk about,
(01:47):
things that have developed since our last conversation. The two
state solution that Biden suggested was the only path forward.
I'll be honest heard two state solution. Yeah, I don't
know what it means. I think I know what it means.
I know what it sounds like she means, right, But
(02:09):
I don't know what it means. And I don't know
if that's really what, in your opinion, is the long
term solution here. If it is the long term solution,
does Joe Biden get half a point for saying that quote,
you know, two state solution thing in a State of
the Union address. I'm not a Joe Biden fan, by
(02:31):
the way, but I know this is the part of
the journalism that we have to ask these questions. And
before you answer, I want you to know that I'm
well aware of, and indeed applaud the efforts of the
Arab community, the Middle Eastern community on the ground in Detroit,
(02:52):
letting their voices be heard by the Democrat I vote
Democrat in every election, but that doesn't mean the Demo
had to do right by black people. And I think
that black people could learn from what the the middle
Eastern population in Detroit did by voting uncommitted none of
(03:17):
these candids whatever it was, and I think uncommitted sounds better.
It was a small trimmer, but it was enough to
I believe, affect Joe Biden's agree Yeah, his State of
the Union address and indeed put forth something that felt
very strong in him saying the only long term solution actually,
(03:39):
let me not misquote him, the only real solution is
a two state solution. That's a direct quote from Joe
Biden during his State of the Union address. So two
state solution, go.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I don't know how that would work.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I go back and forth on one state or two state,
and Palestinians go back and forth on one. And that's
our internal debate that we are allowed to have. Not
all Palestinians are on the same page about every single policy,
you know, just like any.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Group of people.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
The two state solution is highly impossible in my mind
if you think about the way that the country of
Palestine looks.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So that's what I was wondering.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, so first of all, we technically would be getting
Gaza on the West Bank, right, they're not connected, so
that's weird, but they're very close. But then you have
this whole strip of Israel in the middle of it
within the West Bank. According to the nineteen sixty seven
borderlines that were created after the Sixth Day War, we
were supposed to just get the West Bank. That didn't happen.
(04:48):
Israel illegally moved settlers into the West Bank. So they
have Israeli settlers in these like really gorgeous settlements that
they've built. Sometimes they just kick people out of their
own homes, but sometimes they actually will take land and
then build these communities that are they're Jewish only they're segregated.
(05:09):
It's complete apartheid, and it's actually really interesting. On a
separate note, you can actually say that even though Palsenians
are the ones experiencing apartheid, Israeli's experienced segregation because they're
segregated from the Palasinian population. They don't get to interact
with the Palsinine population. There are signs in Arabic, English
(05:29):
and Hebrew warning the Israeli settlers not to come into
our towns because it's dangerous quote unquote, even though they're
the ones with the weapons, and the Israeli settlers will
come into our towns and do whatever they want and
bully and harass. And I've watched I've watched them Ramsey's
with my own eyes. Harassed school children trying to get
(05:51):
to school in the morning. Is really adult Israeli settlers.
I've watched them attack school children trying to get from
one town to another, one village to another where their
little school is. And yet we're the ones that are
dangerous and there, so they're trying to keep their population
away from us. So if they're building these permanent settlement structures,
(06:16):
how does that, How does the West think become ours?
What becomes Palestine? If you've already brought a half a
million people into this tiny, tiny little piece of land
and kept them there permanently, how do we get it?
Do they become Palestinians. That's not going to happen. There
israeally citizens, and they want to be Israeli citizens. They
(06:37):
don't want to be Palsie. They would have to leave,
and the idea of them leaving and trying to deal
with that just seems so unrealistic. So then you go, Okay,
one state solution. That sounds fair, right, like we all
live harmoniously together South Africans, did it? Sure? It is
really unlikely to see that, to see a world where
(07:01):
Israeli politicians are willing to communicate on an equal playing
field with Palestinian politicians. Yeah, that's where because currently there
are Palsenians living inside of Israel. So we call them,
we call them forty eight. They're from nineteen forty eight.
They're Palsenians who never left that part of Palestine and
(07:22):
got integrated into the Israeli population. They even though they
have Israeli citizenship, they are still treated by officials and
by oftentimes many citizens, not all citizens, but many citizens
as second class citizens. So there's really not a world
inside of Palestine where Palestinians feel like they would ever
(07:43):
be equal to Israelis. So I don't know how this
works when you're arguing one state to state. There's pros
and cons to both, depending on how far we are
willing to go.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Okay, so how about this? I how I say this.
There's a person who's an activist. His name is Sean King,
familiar with him, he said something that rattled me. Sean
(08:20):
King is an activist across the board, but during this time,
he says, oh, Joe Biden needs to step up, condemn
this action, blah blah blah whatever, and Joe Biden did
not do that, certainly not at that time. Then more
videos came out, and Sean King was the one sharing
(08:41):
these videos when he was still on Instagram. Then he
said something. After some time of calling for the President
of the United States to condemn this activity, he says,
you know what, I will never cast a vote for
this man as long as I live. I cannot do
it in good conscience. And that rattled me because the
(09:04):
alternative is really, really, really bad, right what I understand
why he said that, And I don't like it, but
I love it, right, Like when I'm talking about the
(09:25):
Arab American community in Detroit, I don't like that, but
I love it. And I hope that you listening to me.
I hope you get what I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, because there's not a proper alternative.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Right, but I love the fact that it's like, well, look,
none of these works, so we're doing none of these right,
So that part I'm with it. Right, and you know,
and also I try to be fair. You know, I'm
not just on this show, not just on Civic Cipher,
not just you know, when I have a microphone and
an audience. I try to be fair in my regular life.
(09:57):
I think that that's the right way to be. I
know what it is, and so I just do the
thing that is right. I try to you know what
I mean. Maybe I don't know, but in my heart
it's right. Right. So I'm not going to steal. I'm
not gonna bear a false witness. We're going to site
the Ten Commandments, right, I'm not going to do these things.
Granted there's some nuance, the ors, some things like that,
(10:19):
but I follow my heart. I try to do this right.
In other words, I don't believe that I'm a bad person.
So when I try to be fair, I will call
it a spade, too little, too late. But it's not nothing.
You've heard me say that. But we're on this show, right.
So when Joe Biden says with his whole chest, the
(10:39):
only let me not misquote them, the only real solution
is a two state solution. To me, that suggests again
I'm not a fan of Joe Biden, what credit where
it's doe if indeed there's credit here, and you're the
person who can tell me better than I can tell
myself with respect to this, because if I want to
(11:01):
say Palestinian people on the ground are my brothers and sisters,
I have to let you say it first, right, But
I'm going to say this because this is the way
that I've interpreted these words. Okay, If he says the
only real solution is a two state solution, to me,
that suggests he is conceiving of and indeed sharing with
(11:28):
the world, the concept of a future of Palestinians. So
right there, that means we do not wish to see
Palestinians eliminated from planet Earth. That's not nothing, because Hitler
was really awesome, Like we want to see the Jews
eliminated from planet Earth. Right now, I'm not clapping for Hitler.
(11:51):
I'm not clapping for Joe Biden. But he did say
that in the State of the Union. It wasn't on
a microphone, he wasn't getting interviewed. He was stated, he prepared,
he knew he was going to say that, And I
believe that that has to on some level lie in
the face of what I believe a lot of is
pro Israeli folks feel, which is, the world would be
(12:14):
better off without a state of Palestine. This all belongs
to Israel, or the world would be better off without
Palestinian people. Right now, Again, that's not nothing. That is
no way would ever be a defense of Joe Biden.
But the reason I frame it that way is when
(12:36):
it's not nothing, and black people and I'm not speaking
for all black people, but I know that this is true.
Black people, we're very, very used to taking very very
tiny baby steps forward, right, and we will put forth
something that says, hey, we want all of this, and
we'll end up with ten percent of it, and that's
(12:58):
not zero, and we'll take the ten percent and we
revisit the fight in five years or ten years, or
in another two decades. Right. And so this incremental progress
that's very slow and very disheartening for a lot of
people who wished to get more. When you take a
step back and you look at the entirety of the
progress of black people in this country, you're able to see, oh,
(13:20):
this does not work in the scale of the lifetime.
I'm not going to live in the world that I
want to live in sure, my grandchildren might live in
that world, and it breaks my heart because I have
actual children that won't get to live in that world either. Right,
But as a result of me acknowledging that truth, I
(13:44):
recognize that when it's not nothing, that means it's something.
And so I suppose my question is does it matter?
And if the answer is no, the answer is no. Again,
you're the person here to tell me what the truth is. Right,
(14:04):
But does it matter that Joe Biden has said at
least that one part out loud with his whole chest
in front of the world.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
No, okay, it doesn't. Who cares what he says?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
If he sends ten million dollars a day to dismantle Palestine.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Who cares? They're just words. Put your money where your
mouth is. Geneside, Joe.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
They say these things, and you see it in every
residential cycle. They say the things that sound really good
to get elected. And also, we've been talking about a
two state solution for a few decades now.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
This isn't I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, this isn't new. This has been the argument back
and forth. Meanwhile, while we're having this debate, Israel is
confiscating more and more of Palestinian land in the West Bank.
It's part I know, yeah, And so we sit there
and have this conversation. We can go to the State
of the Union and clap for his two state solution,
but then they're still taking more land, so it's going
(15:08):
to be impossible to actually achieve. But it's really nice
because you said it and you thought it, so you
know you were well intentioned. I mean, you weren't because
you funded that. But we've been talking about this for
a really long time. Clinton was trying really hard to
get this through. This isn't anything new, but it's so
(15:32):
difficult to even talk about that because we have to
end the occupation first.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Okay, So that so put a pin in the occupation
because I want to talk about that solutions. You and
I are very good at enumerating problems, and I think
we're just as good at discussing solutions, but often enough
the clock runs out. I mean, so here's what I
(16:01):
want to do. I want to talk about solution. First
thing I'm going to say is I would like for you,
at some point in your response to discuss you can
make a note of it. This is going to be
a two Parterkay, here we go. I would like for
(16:22):
you to discuss what a solution looks like in the
occupation or you know, maybe maybe it's just so people
can conceive of it. Sure, because we're all trying to
figure this out. But for the individuals, those of us
listening to these episodes that you and I are recording.
You know, you're an actor. You're more informed about this
(16:43):
than ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of the
people on Earth. Right, you have more information than probably
even higher number than that, Right, So this is a
moment for us to look to you to conceive of
what a future might look like. Now, obviously there's a
political outcome, and you know you mentioned in the occupation
(17:05):
that might be part of the solution. But what can
we do on the ground? And I want to start
that by saying there was a video. We're bringing folks
up to speed on developments. Since you and I last
spoke about this, there was a video that came out.
There was a young man in the video. His name
(17:26):
was Aaron Bushnell, Okay, and in the video he's talking
about how he's a US soldier. And I won't play
(17:54):
the video again. It's very he has done his protest
he has sacrificed for what he believed was right. And
if you feel that watching that will bring you the
clarity and the clarification that you need. Because I'm not
articulating his words the right way, feel free. But I
want to celebrate his protest. I want to celebrate his life.
(18:15):
But the video is of his death and that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Is that he recorded.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
He recorded it right, So in his last moments on earth,
he was very hurt by what was happening in Palestin
And because I think it matters, he is a white.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Man, yeah, young man twenty five.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, so you know. And he's walking in front of
the Israeli embassy and he's discussing is inevitable act of
protest against the State of Israel and against the United
States and the treatment of the Palestinian people on it
(19:01):
in Palestine in Gaza, and he says, the sacrifice that
I'm going to make today hail's in comparison to what
it is that they're dealing with. But my hope is
that this will bring attention to something like this. It
was very it wasn't quite as poetic as you know,
(19:23):
you and I mentioned Palestinian. His words about Jewish people
beautifying the land. But it was the spirit and the thoughtfulness.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
He said, I will not be complicit in genocide.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
There you go, And it just was a gut punch.
It had to be a gut punch for anybody who
values human life and thinks that it's special and recognizes
that it's a one in a trillion's possibility that this
one individual could exist at this one point in time.
And he decided to sacrifice that magic to bring attention
(19:59):
to thing that he felt was wrong. He walks in
front of the He walks in front of the embassy,
the Israeli embassy. He pours a liquid on himself, sets
himself on fire's camera still rolling, and his last words were.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Re Palestine, Re Palestine.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Okay. Now when you see that and you realize, like
I did over the course of however many months, that hey,
these body parts that they're pulling out of this rubble,
it looked like they could fit on my son's body. Yeah,
(20:47):
that what if this was me? I realized that. I
don't mean to be graphic, but there there was a
person holding a leg trying to find the body of
the baby it belonged to, so that they could give
the baby a proper bear. The baby they didn't get
a chance to grow up. Let me tell you something,
if you're listening right now, my son is learning how
(21:12):
to play the guitar. Okay, my son deserves to grow
up and learn fully how to play the guitar. And
that baby whose body part they took out of that
rubble doesn't get that chance. And the only reason is
because they were born over there, not because that baby
deserves that, not because my son deserves to learn the
(21:32):
guitar more than that. Right. And when you hear that
and you realize that, it makes you feel like I
should be doing more than what I'm doing. I don't
deserve any of this. I'm not. Everybody works hard, everybody
works hard, everybody smart, everybody is creative, and everybody he
(22:00):
deserves a fair shot at everything, right, and not everybody
gets it. And that's the thing that we push back against.
You're with me here, Yeah, So I recognize that there
are levels to sacrifice. I recognize that there are levels
(22:23):
to engagement. But to the people doing nothing who are
listening to this conversation today, who feel compelled to do something,
I will speak for them. We are coming to you,
our sister to ask second partner, what can what more
(22:47):
can we do?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Oof got heavy in here? Uh, we don't. We don't
want to be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
And this.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
War that isn't a war, this annihilation. You know, if
you really thought that land was yours, you wouldn't destroy it.
You wouldn't rip up three thousand year old olive trees.
And there's videos of palsine women with their arms thrown
around an olive tree. Because this is our livelihood and
(23:31):
it's a part of the land and it's a part
of us. If you really thought that that was yours,
you wouldn't. You wouldn't rip it up the way the
Israelis do. So anyway, it's an annihilation of a land
and our people. And it's tiring, Like I don't want
to talk to you about a man who held pieces
(23:54):
of his children in two plastic bags. It's horrific and
it's exhausting to listen to and you want to tune
it out because we're not meant to take in all
of this.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
It's too much. It's too much.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
I took a genocide in the Holocaust class in college,
and I cried every day that I left that class
because it was too much. And it never should have
gotten to that point. And sometimes it's just easier to
turn it off. I've never seen Schindler's List because I
can't because my heart it would just rip. I can't.
It's just too it's too painful. I'm like, oh, I
(24:29):
get the gist of it and that's enough, and I can't.
So what we're asking is for you to not turn
away and not look away, and not get tired of us,
because this affects the whole world.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It really really does.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
I'm not saying this because I'm a Palestinian. I'm saying
this because I know because I've seen it, and I've
lived it, and I've experienced it, and I've watched the
political theater that happens around it. What happens in Palestine
affects all of us. And if I can't pull it
your heart string from human to human and say please,
don't forget about us, we matter, then I would pull
(25:07):
at your heart strings because this affects you any your children.
You have to keep talking about it. They're banning TikTok
or trying to because our voices matter. Sharing stories actually works.
(25:28):
Elevating the voices of Palestinians on the ground, not mine.
The ones on the ground, the journalists or the young
people who've turned into journalists.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Who are being.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Targeted by Israel for their voices. They've killed I think
one hundred and twenty journalists the last time I counted,
because they're afraid of our voices, and so we need
the international community to elevate the voices of the people
on the ground and make sure that they are heard everywhere.
(26:02):
So that's a really big one. Boycotting is a really
big one, and you can follow the Palestinian boycott movements.
It's called BDS Boycott, divestment and sanctions, and it's really easy.
We're like, hey, don't spend your money at these crap
food chains, and it makes a difference. People are starting
to notice because your dollar is your vote, and now
we've switched the we've been able to share the truth.
(26:25):
The narrative has switched into the truth. So we have
to keep that elevated and not let it get smothered.
And then we also take our finances. We vote with
our dollar, and that scares governments because governments are corporations.
And if we can stifle that together, I think that
that can do a lot of good and it makes
(26:47):
that's how we is, the people find power.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Okay, I want to add some thing here before we
switched to the other part of the question. M It's funny.
I I've heard about the worst pain that a person
can endure, and once upon a time I heard that
(27:23):
the worst pain that a person can endure as childbirth.
And then I heard passing a kidney stone is worse.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's the argument which one's worse.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
And then I heard no, getting cheated on is the worst.
And then I witnessed a woman watch her mother forget
who she was, and she told me that being forgotten.
(28:06):
So I remember that conversation and I realized, yep, that's
the worst one, so patful. So you know, I'm not
going to forget you. Thank you, and I'm not going
to let anybody else forget you. I have a microphone
in an audience. I still got my my bracelet, my
(28:27):
Free Palestine bracelet. And again I want to remind folks
that this is in no way a condemnation of Jewish people.
I love Jewish people have since day one, will until
my last day.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Shame on the Israeli government, Shame.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
On that stuff in the name of Jewish.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Appropriating people's faith and using it against.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
The whole world.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And to be fair, I am a journalist and I
as I mentioned in the beginning of our talks that
we've been having, that I do have a standing offer
with Amy Horwitz, who is a pro Israel, pro Israeli correspondent,
to come on to this show and say his piece.
I would be very critical dispositions. Admittedly, I will admit
(29:09):
my bias, and I've done the research and what has
been verified and validated and checked out certainly supports my
opinion in this matter. But you know, far be it
from me to only highlight one side. But I will
say to you, my sister, that I will not forget you.
(29:34):
That is there happiness, not the worst pain. And your people,
I believe they've been through enough pain. So this concludes
Part three of our or part special with Palestinian American
human rights major and former Miss arab USA Suzanne Osla.
Check back in with us tomorrow for Part three right
(29:56):
here on the Black Information Network Daily Podcast with me
your hosts to Drings this job. Part
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