May 6, 2022 • 24 mins
The singer-songwriter opens up about her the new Showtime documentary, ‘Sheryl,’ which traces her journey from elementary school teacher to musical superstar responsible for classics like “All I Wanna Do,” “Soak Up the Sun,” and “My Favorite Mistake.” The film documents her battle against sexism, agism, and at times her own perfectionism, but ultimately it’s a story about finding happiness on her own terms. Crow discusses her early years of fame, her writing process, and what it’s been like to look back.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan run Tug,
but enough about me. My guest today has sold over
fifty million albums, one nine Grammys, sung a Bond theme,
and inspired millions with her electrifying vocals, melodic mastery and
dedication to her craft. Come on, this is the person
(00:22):
who gave us every day as a winding road. If
it makes you happy, strong enough, leave in Las Vegas,
soak up the sun, and of course the immortal. All
I wanna do any one of those is enough to
earn my undying love and respect for all lifetime. She's
the subject of a new documentary on Showtime That's How Today,
called Cheryl. It explores her incredible journey, which took her
from teaching music to school kids to sharing the stage
(00:43):
with Michael Jackson just a few short months before she
exploded as a musical force in her own right with
Tuesday Night Music Club. The film documents her battle against
far too many isms, sexism, ageism, and at times her
own perfectionism. But it's ultimately a story about finding happiness
on your own terms. It's a Happinessue sings up in
(01:04):
a new song called Forever, which is included on the
album that it companies the documentary, Inspired by your two sons.
It's a tribute to cherishing deep connections and being truly present.
I'm so happy to welcome Cheryl Crowe. I hope you
enjoy our conversation. I love your documentary so much. I mean,
(01:26):
it's like your music. It's warm, revelatory, compelling, and just
so unflinchingly authentic and honest. It's so wonderful. I was
surprised to learn that you actually were a little hesitant
to do it at first. Why was that, Oh, I think, well,
first and foremost, I'm a really private person. And I
also didn't want to make a documentary that just felt
(01:47):
like a recap of awards, and you know, I didn't
want it to feel like a behind the music or
something like that, even though I love v H one,
so there's no knock against that, and they actually put
me on the map, but I just want it to
feel I wanted to tell the real story, and I
wanted to actually tell the story of the person behind
you know, thirty years of living or even longer than that,
(02:11):
you know. But I was hesitant because I feel like
most documentaries are made about people after they've died, and
I just thought, oh, I still have a lot of
living to do. But anyway, I gave into it and
we did it. It was so incredible, And as you mentioned,
this documentary, we'll teach people so much about the person
behind these songs that we know and love. Did it
teach you something about yourself? Yeah? I mean, I guess
(02:32):
in in reflecting on all of the life's experiences, I
really realized that a lot of what I went through
is what so many women go through, no matter what
business they're in, particularly when you work in companies that
are run mostly by men. And and you know, there
was there's just a lot along the way that I
(02:53):
think probably a lot of young female artists have experienced.
And there was something kind of liberating about being able
to tell that story. None of these things I've I
ever talked about openly or publicly, and even talk about
getting older in my business, which is you know, has
its own set of challenges. UM, and to talk about
(03:15):
mental health and UM I learned, you know, I learned
that ultimately I wound up being the person I started
out as. UM. I went on a lot of detours
and it took me a while to figure out how
to get back. But um, it was interesting living reliving it.
It was so interesting. And it opened with um clips
(03:36):
from an interview where the interview calls you driven, which
to me sounds like a compliment. And I heard that,
I thought, But then reading more about it, seems like
that was a much more loaded phrase in in the
early to mid nineties. I thought it was an interesting
way to start the documentary. Yeah, I mean, it still
is somewhere I can remember when um, I think it
was Kamala Harris was running for president or maybe Amy Closure,
(03:58):
and they called her and bitious, She's too She's she's
too ambitious, and that's a bad thing if you called that.
If you say that about a man, you go, yeah,
he's gonna be great, you know. And um, it just
seems to be sort of a sideways compliment. Um. And
And certainly when I was asked, I think Steve Croft
asked me about it, it did hit me kind of funny, like,
(04:21):
you know, what a horrible thing to be called driven?
I thought it came across to me as a compliment.
I hadn't realized Yeah it was. I mean, this film
is so wonderful. Anyone listening now who hasn't seen it yet,
please pause this episode and go listen to it or
go watch it. It is absolutely amazing. One of the
most mind blowing moments of this documentary for me was
(04:41):
when you were hired to go out on the Michael
Jackson tour relatively soon after arriving in Los Angeles. I mean,
I've known the story, Oh my god, I mean I've
known the story, but seeing the footage from these shows
in Tokyo in front of seventy thousand people whatever, it
was really just put it in perspective. Did did seeing
that level of fame at that close range and everything
(05:02):
that comes with it, from the craziness and you know, intrusion,
to the privilege and the adoration. Did that alter your
musical goals in any way? Was it like, oh my gosh,
I maybe I don't want this type of thing, or
there was it the opposite. Did it Did it inspire
you to be not to use that word ambitious? Yeah?
You know what it did? It made me really confused
(05:24):
because I was I was raised um by too hard
working and really you know, solid Midwestern parents, and I
was raised um with this idea that if you're a
good person and you know you do the right thing
and you work hard, that you know that's that's what
will serve you in life. And when I got on
(05:45):
that tour and really got a glimpse into what how
the business works. You know the fact that large corporations
will buy or back then this was during Paola, that
they would buy, you know, a million copies of Michael
his record, it would come out at number one. I mean,
they everything was mapped out. I came away from it
feeling like I'm never going to be able to be
(06:09):
a big artist because I don't have that machine behind me.
And then also, um to witness this incredible artist, whether
you like Michael or you don't, after what we know
about him. Um to witness that kind of artistry and
to see massive audiences reacting, um like he was the
(06:33):
Beatles or whatever. I mean, it just was a huge
I've never seen anything like it. I've never been out
of I've barely been out of Missouri. I mean I've
only been in California for six months. Every single thing
about that about that tour, the eight months of it
was was life changing. And when I came home, Um,
I went back to complete um unknown nous, no one
(06:58):
knew who I was, and I started waiting Tay was again.
It was like I went right back to where I
was before, Like it never happened. Wow, I mean it
must have been fitting in a sense because I think
I'm right and saying ABC was first record you ever bought? Right,
first record I ever bought was ABC. Yeah. I have
a lot of threads in my life. Who are some
(07:18):
of the other artists who sort of set you on
your path? Um? Well, growing up, you know, around well
as early as I remember, my parents played music in
the house. They were musicians. Um. I I listened to
a lot of James Taylor and Carol King tapestry. Um,
I listened to a lot of My parents played a
(07:40):
lot of big band music and a lot of crooners,
so I knew all that stuff. I grew up watching
musicals on TV like Oklahoma and My Fair Lady and
West Side Story. But then as I got older, I
gravitated to you know, Fleetwood Mac and the Rolling Stones,
and um just got really into rock and roll and
(08:04):
started to cut my teeth on that. And then when
I went and saw Bonnie Right as a teenager and
saw her playing guitar. I was like, okay, wait a minute,
So you can be a woman and you can play
guitar and you can front a band of dudes. Um,
and that's what I wanted to do. What is the
transition like going from somebody who who appreciates music and
loves to listen to it to creating your own and
(08:26):
writing your own songs. I mean it's someone like me
who loves music with all of his heart and has
never been able to write a song in his life.
That's a turning point. That's always fascinating for me. What
was there a moment for you, like a light bulb
moment or was it a gradual progression. I didn't have
a life bold moment. I just had this work ethic
and and also this. I felt like music was a
(08:47):
lifeline for me. I mean, I think a lot of
kids will find that thing that they formed their identity
around because being a teenager is hard, you know. I
can't imagine being a teenager now with social media. But um,
for me, it was music, Like I knew how to play.
I could play by ear, I could play anything I heard,
sit down at the piano and play TV Wonder and
Elton John and UM, you know, I just knew that's
(09:10):
how I I saw myself, and I saw myself getting
out of my hometown, and um, music was just a
lifeline for me. And that was the very thing that
I just gravitated to in every way. You know, I
had no business crashing an audition for Michael Jackson, but
I just felt like, what do I have to lose,
(09:31):
you know, so, UM, I just kept kept keeping on.
There was something you said recently, I think it was
on the Bobby Bones podcast about your your writing process
(09:53):
and creative process, at least for your first few albums,
when I think it was Bill Buttrell suggested that everyone
played the ttreament that wasn't their primary one, which to
me is just the coolest thing. I mean, you're a
classically trained pianist and now you're on bass or something.
I just thought that was such an interesting method. I
wanted to ask you more about that. That way to
keep a spontaneity in the creative process. Yeah, and I
(10:14):
really gravitate to that now even and I carry that
with me and I learned I've learned so much from
so many people along the way, and that is has
been a really valuable tool. And it's really the reason
I wound up playing bass, because I find myself playing
writing melodies over bass lines, which kept me from just
playing the same chord progressions because as a piano player,
(10:35):
you know, you get comfortable, you know what sounds good,
and I would I would think melody and lyric and
just play the route, and then I would try to
have somebody else come in and play the bass part
and be like, no, that doesn't feel right, so I
wouldn't be in the bass player right and that that
was just such a great way to approach record making,
(10:56):
was by like what can what can I do that
has have been done before? And um and I still
try to do that. That is so cool. You're one
of my my bass playing heroes. I I loved you
and I've I've really rarely heard of people writing on
the base. I think that's the coolest thing that you
use that as as your your muse, your starting point. Yeah,
(11:17):
it's been really I mean, I have this one guitar.
It's an acoustic guitar. It's this nineteen sixty four country
and Western that we call the Little money Maker because
most of the songs that I've made money off of
have been written on that, but um, starting about the
Globe sessions, I started writing on base and wrote my
favorite mistake on base and wrote, I mean there's a
(11:37):
lot of myself that was written on base, and um, yeah,
it's it keeps me from being schlocky, I think. I mean,
speaking of the Little money Maker, I was gonna ask you,
is there an element of I hate to use this word,
but superstition in your songwriting? I mean a certain instrument,
a certain room, a certain time of day, a certain
t that you drink before you start. Is there an
(11:59):
element just to kind of that gets you in in
the zone, for lack of a better term, for when
you start. It's been a really funny um progression for me.
In the old days, we would never record before like
you know, six at night. We generally in the old days,
I would walk in and just have like a couple
(12:20):
of lines for a song, or have a couple of
ideas or whatever, and we would you know, go out
and run around New Orleans or wherever we're recording New York.
We come back after dinner, we drink some beer or
some wine, and you start recording about ten and then
we'd go to like four in the morning, you know,
it would be crazy. And something in my mind was like, well,
(12:41):
I can't write a great song unless I've had some
wine and it's like the middle of the night or whatever.
My last few records I've written between school drop off
and school pick up, and I am so inspired. So
I don't know. I think. I think once you get
that that thing out of your head that tells you
this is the way it's got to be, you can
(13:02):
write anywhere just by sitting quiet, picking up a base
or a great instrument, and just seeing what happens. Do
you find that that the best songs are the ones
that are most effortless, ones that kind of come with
the fastest. Yeah, I think the ones that are the
most anointed are the ones that kind of come out
(13:22):
of nowhere. And then there are those songs that are
good songs that you've crafted because you know how to
craft a song. But I've had a few songs in
my career that came out of nowhere that weren't even
typical of how I write um that I feel like
are just the gifts that you are eternally humbled by.
(13:43):
What are some of those or any to come to mind. Yeah,
I mean Redemption Day is definitely one of those that
that was the song that um came off the heels
of my going and playing for the troops in Bosnia
and I came home because I I split up with
a relationship that I thought was kind of a forever
relationship and was going to you know, right from the heart,
and I just couldn't get anywhere with it. So I
(14:05):
put my guitar down and opened my computer and suddenly
I've written seven or eight stanzas, which is not really
how I write. I don't usually embrace or even adopt
that Bob Dylan cadence. But it just came out of
nowhere as if it was it needed to be written,
and then ultimately Johnny Cash wound up recording it. So
(14:27):
it just goes to show you that music is just
it's not definable. Inspiration is not definable. Um, it's from
some other cosmic space, you know, It's just it's a gift. Yeah,
I wanted to ask you about I'm so fascinated by
the notion of rules in the songwriting because I'm just
(14:48):
that line between rules and raw creativity, and and you've
spoken about how you know listening to people like Burt
back Rack, is it just you know that that's a
great teacher right there, just listening to stuff. How important
our rules in the songwriting? Is that the kind of
thing that you need to know in order to break them.
It's funny when I went to college, I got my
(15:08):
degree in classical piano, and you had to take a
composition class, and they're all these rules, like you can
never use um parallel fists. And now it's all these
um all these rules that are basically meant to be
broken if you're truly tapping into art. And I do
(15:28):
feel that way about songwriting, although I think there's something
really beautiful, and I tell this to young artists all
the time. One of the greatest things you can ever
do is get in a cover band, because even by osmosis,
you you are exposed to what makes music, what makes styles,
(15:51):
what makes a great pop sound great. And for me
having grown up in cover bands and for me learning
how to sing like I mean, being in car bands
and having to sing like Shaka Khan, now you're gonna
sound like Chrissy Hin. Now you're knowing how to manipulate
the voice. All those things are really powerful when you
sit down to try to figure out who you are,
(16:13):
and you're able to pull from these influences. Um. I
I find it to be really helpful. Um. I mean,
I can listen to a bird Back erect song and
I will ultimately if I sit down and start playing,
I will write something that's a little bit different than
if I've just listened to an Eagle song or and
(16:35):
neither one of them less important than the other. That's
so interesting. I never thought of it that way. Almost
reverse engineering these, you know, these hits if you're in
a cover band, to kind of see what what what works? Yeah,
I mean, and it's great, you know, it's great to
know why. Um you know, uh, James Jamerson Baseline can
(16:55):
suddenly make a a song fly out of the radio
and last for fifty years, you know. And those are
the things that if you're lucky and ever get one
of those, um, you know, you can retire happy. What
(17:26):
is your relationship like to music today? Is it is
it a daily practice like some people do yoga and
some people jog, or is it something that you do
only when you feel moved and feel as though you
know you have something to say? Um? Well, it's it's
been different recently because when the pandemic happened, I had
(17:47):
so much free time and it was it was beautiful
free time. I mean, i'd feel a little guilty saying that,
but I didn't have that pole like, oh my gosh,
everybody else was touring. I should be out there touring.
Nobody was touring, and to be able to just it
down and play and have the luxury of getting back
into just loving music, playing other people's songs, and um,
(18:10):
I've gotten more. I just I will more likely go
sit at the piano or pick up my guitar now
and just play for the fun of it than I
have in years. And it feels so great. And my
kids when I first started doing that and practicing, I
mean I started actually practice practicing my own material so
I could do virtual concerts. They're like, what are you doing?
(18:31):
And I said, well, I'm practicing, and they're like, why
are you practicing? You already know how to play. And
I'm like, because practice makes you better, you know, and that,
and because I love it, and it's the reason that
I do it is because it's it's the thing I
left first, and so it's good for them to see
that as well. Um, but yeah, I do write when
I'm I'm inspired, but I also write when I'm not inspired,
(18:54):
and sometimes good songs come out of that. Wow. I
mean that's the craft I guess too, when you can
sit down and make a song even where there was
once nothing, You you get up from your desk later
and there's something right there. Yeah, And that's the great
motivating factor is that you there's there's always that possibility
that you'll come out with something that you've never written before,
(19:15):
and it it makes you feel I think a really
interesting example of that. I was a huge fan of
the Beatles Get Back documentary and to see them. I
think I heard you say that that watching the band
sit down trying to come up with stuff on the
spot and really for a lot of it fail. Uh,
(19:36):
changed your relationship to music in a certain way. I
think was something that I think walking that just blew
my mind. I mean, I think, um, well, first and foremost,
there was so much, so much lore about who they
were and how they broke up and all that, and
you witnessed these friends, I mean, and and not just friends,
(19:57):
but like, um, they were like blunkers. I mean they
literally were like discovering and creating music that has been
the springboard for all of us. And and to witness
the incredible talent. I mean even when they were jamming
(20:19):
up those songs that ultimately wound up on the Wide
album and Abbey Road and Let It Be, Um, just
the incredible musicianship. I was so inspired, um by that
documentary that I went up watching the third one twice
and then went up going in the studio and writing
this song called Forever with my buddy Jeff. That is
(20:41):
right from you know, the Yesterday Handbook or the Blackbird
Handbook of just vulnerability. That song I was going to
ask you about that, your song Forever. I found it
difficult to listen to and watch the video without getting
choked up. I thought it was so truemendously moving, such
(21:02):
a touching piece of music. I wanted to ask you
more about that. Obviously, much of your your your sons
are in there. Um. Then they've never been I've never
let him be a part of mine social media platform.
I've always felt like they need to be shielded from
that because they deserve the right to just be kids
(21:23):
and not be famous. Um. But that song was was
the result of my fifteen year old to me home
and talking about this stress that he experiences at school
and some of his friends experience. And man, kids today
experience so much more stress than we did. I mean
we they're worrying about the big stuff, like whether the
planet is gonna not sustain us. I mean, they're worried
(21:46):
about things that would never have been in my mind.
I would be worried about whether I got asked to
the eighth grade dance. You know that that that was
the kind of worry we had, and um so that
that was the impetus for that song and the inspiration
for it. It's an incredible track. It's on the album
that's accompanying the documentary. There's a few new songs on it.
(22:08):
I also love. But this Way Let It Bleed is
one of my favorite Stones albums ever. Your version of
Live with Me, Oh it rocks. It's so great. What
led you to record that track? It's so awesome? Well,
you know, it's we It's in the documentary and it
was the very first thing I ever got to play
with the Rolling Stones. And man they have been I
(22:30):
mean they're the bedrock for me of I mean, if
it weren't for them, there'd be now Sheryl Crow for sure,
and um, so we thought this would be fun. It's
in the movie. Let's do a cover. Let's do our
version of their song, which is a crazy task in
and of itself. And then and the when we were done,
I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna I'm just
(22:50):
gonna text Mick and just see if he might play
harp on it. I mean, the fact that I could
even text him, that I even have his number is
makes my head one to explode right now. But and
he's said yes, and he's like, send it on and
he did it, and there it is, and it's doing
really well from what I understand. So, um, it's you know,
it's it's so much fun, and it's such a cool
(23:14):
it's such a cool song, and it's so much it's
just a cool thing. I'm so stoked. It's so great.
You're finally gearing up to to head on the road again, finally,
I mean this that's got to just feel so good.
And the boys coming to I know, they've got had
some special guest spots in the past. They always come
with me, and I think at which point they don't
(23:35):
want to come anymore. I'll definitely slow down. I asked
him all that time, do you want me to retire?
Get me stawn home? And They're like, no, no, no,
we love going on the road. We love it, and
but I think at some point girls are going to
enter the picture and going out on the road with
mom is not gonna be as much fun. But we're
excited about it. I mean, it's been a couple of
years that have been really for everybody, really hard to
(23:58):
sit on your hands and to watch people that you
love not be able to work, and so um, yeah,
we're super superside. Sure. I can't wait to see you
out there. So thank you so much for your time today,
and most importantly, thank you for your music. It's given
me and so many people I love so much joy
over the years. You were the best. Thank you. Oh
(24:19):
my gosh, Jordan, thank you for having me on. We
hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio, a
production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside
the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite podcast.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan run Tug,
but enough about me. My guest today has sold over
fifty million albums, one nine Grammys, sung a Bond theme,
and inspired millions with her electrifying vocals, melodic mastery and
dedication to her craft. Come on, this is the person
(00:22):
who gave us every day as a winding road. If
it makes you happy, strong enough, leave in Las Vegas,
soak up the sun, and of course the immortal. All
I wanna do any one of those is enough to
earn my undying love and respect for all lifetime. She's
the subject of a new documentary on Showtime That's How Today,
called Cheryl. It explores her incredible journey, which took her
from teaching music to school kids to sharing the stage
(00:43):
with Michael Jackson just a few short months before she
exploded as a musical force in her own right with
Tuesday Night Music Club. The film documents her battle against
far too many isms, sexism, ageism, and at times her
own perfectionism. But it's ultimately a story about finding happiness
on your own terms. It's a Happinessue sings up in
(01:04):
a new song called Forever, which is included on the
album that it companies the documentary, Inspired by your two sons.
It's a tribute to cherishing deep connections and being truly present.
I'm so happy to welcome Cheryl Crowe. I hope you
enjoy our conversation. I love your documentary so much. I mean,
(01:26):
it's like your music. It's warm, revelatory, compelling, and just
so unflinchingly authentic and honest. It's so wonderful. I was
surprised to learn that you actually were a little hesitant
to do it at first. Why was that, Oh, I think, well,
first and foremost, I'm a really private person. And I
also didn't want to make a documentary that just felt
(01:47):
like a recap of awards, and you know, I didn't
want it to feel like a behind the music or
something like that, even though I love v H one,
so there's no knock against that, and they actually put
me on the map, but I just want it to
feel I wanted to tell the real story, and I
wanted to actually tell the story of the person behind
you know, thirty years of living or even longer than that,
(02:11):
you know. But I was hesitant because I feel like
most documentaries are made about people after they've died, and
I just thought, oh, I still have a lot of
living to do. But anyway, I gave into it and
we did it. It was so incredible, And as you mentioned,
this documentary, we'll teach people so much about the person
behind these songs that we know and love. Did it
teach you something about yourself? Yeah? I mean, I guess
(02:32):
in in reflecting on all of the life's experiences, I
really realized that a lot of what I went through
is what so many women go through, no matter what
business they're in, particularly when you work in companies that
are run mostly by men. And and you know, there
was there's just a lot along the way that I
(02:53):
think probably a lot of young female artists have experienced.
And there was something kind of liberating about being able
to tell that story. None of these things I've I
ever talked about openly or publicly, and even talk about
getting older in my business, which is you know, has
its own set of challenges. UM, and to talk about
(03:15):
mental health and UM I learned, you know, I learned
that ultimately I wound up being the person I started
out as. UM. I went on a lot of detours
and it took me a while to figure out how
to get back. But um, it was interesting living reliving it.
It was so interesting. And it opened with um clips
(03:36):
from an interview where the interview calls you driven, which
to me sounds like a compliment. And I heard that,
I thought, But then reading more about it, seems like
that was a much more loaded phrase in in the
early to mid nineties. I thought it was an interesting
way to start the documentary. Yeah, I mean, it still
is somewhere I can remember when um, I think it
was Kamala Harris was running for president or maybe Amy Closure,
(03:58):
and they called her and bitious, She's too She's she's
too ambitious, and that's a bad thing if you called that.
If you say that about a man, you go, yeah,
he's gonna be great, you know. And um, it just
seems to be sort of a sideways compliment. Um. And
And certainly when I was asked, I think Steve Croft
asked me about it, it did hit me kind of funny, like,
(04:21):
you know, what a horrible thing to be called driven?
I thought it came across to me as a compliment.
I hadn't realized Yeah it was. I mean, this film
is so wonderful. Anyone listening now who hasn't seen it yet,
please pause this episode and go listen to it or
go watch it. It is absolutely amazing. One of the
most mind blowing moments of this documentary for me was
(04:41):
when you were hired to go out on the Michael
Jackson tour relatively soon after arriving in Los Angeles. I mean,
I've known the story, Oh my god, I mean I've
known the story, but seeing the footage from these shows
in Tokyo in front of seventy thousand people whatever, it
was really just put it in perspective. Did did seeing
that level of fame at that close range and everything
(05:02):
that comes with it, from the craziness and you know, intrusion,
to the privilege and the adoration. Did that alter your
musical goals in any way? Was it like, oh my gosh,
I maybe I don't want this type of thing, or
there was it the opposite. Did it Did it inspire
you to be not to use that word ambitious? Yeah?
You know what it did? It made me really confused
(05:24):
because I was I was raised um by too hard
working and really you know, solid Midwestern parents, and I
was raised um with this idea that if you're a
good person and you know you do the right thing
and you work hard, that you know that's that's what
will serve you in life. And when I got on
(05:45):
that tour and really got a glimpse into what how
the business works. You know the fact that large corporations
will buy or back then this was during Paola, that
they would buy, you know, a million copies of Michael
his record, it would come out at number one. I mean,
they everything was mapped out. I came away from it
feeling like I'm never going to be able to be
(06:09):
a big artist because I don't have that machine behind me.
And then also, um to witness this incredible artist, whether
you like Michael or you don't, after what we know
about him. Um to witness that kind of artistry and
to see massive audiences reacting, um like he was the
(06:33):
Beatles or whatever. I mean, it just was a huge
I've never seen anything like it. I've never been out
of I've barely been out of Missouri. I mean I've
only been in California for six months. Every single thing
about that about that tour, the eight months of it
was was life changing. And when I came home, Um,
I went back to complete um unknown nous, no one
(06:58):
knew who I was, and I started waiting Tay was again.
It was like I went right back to where I
was before, Like it never happened. Wow, I mean it
must have been fitting in a sense because I think
I'm right and saying ABC was first record you ever bought? Right,
first record I ever bought was ABC. Yeah. I have
a lot of threads in my life. Who are some
(07:18):
of the other artists who sort of set you on
your path? Um? Well, growing up, you know, around well
as early as I remember, my parents played music in
the house. They were musicians. Um. I I listened to
a lot of James Taylor and Carol King tapestry. Um,
I listened to a lot of My parents played a
(07:40):
lot of big band music and a lot of crooners,
so I knew all that stuff. I grew up watching
musicals on TV like Oklahoma and My Fair Lady and
West Side Story. But then as I got older, I
gravitated to you know, Fleetwood Mac and the Rolling Stones,
and um just got really into rock and roll and
(08:04):
started to cut my teeth on that. And then when
I went and saw Bonnie Right as a teenager and
saw her playing guitar. I was like, okay, wait a minute,
So you can be a woman and you can play
guitar and you can front a band of dudes. Um,
and that's what I wanted to do. What is the
transition like going from somebody who who appreciates music and
loves to listen to it to creating your own and
(08:26):
writing your own songs. I mean it's someone like me
who loves music with all of his heart and has
never been able to write a song in his life.
That's a turning point. That's always fascinating for me. What
was there a moment for you, like a light bulb
moment or was it a gradual progression. I didn't have
a life bold moment. I just had this work ethic
and and also this. I felt like music was a
(08:47):
lifeline for me. I mean, I think a lot of
kids will find that thing that they formed their identity
around because being a teenager is hard, you know. I
can't imagine being a teenager now with social media. But um,
for me, it was music, Like I knew how to play.
I could play by ear, I could play anything I heard,
sit down at the piano and play TV Wonder and
Elton John and UM, you know, I just knew that's
(09:10):
how I I saw myself, and I saw myself getting
out of my hometown, and um, music was just a
lifeline for me. And that was the very thing that
I just gravitated to in every way. You know, I
had no business crashing an audition for Michael Jackson, but
I just felt like, what do I have to lose,
(09:31):
you know, so, UM, I just kept kept keeping on.
There was something you said recently, I think it was
on the Bobby Bones podcast about your your writing process
(09:53):
and creative process, at least for your first few albums,
when I think it was Bill Buttrell suggested that everyone
played the ttreament that wasn't their primary one, which to
me is just the coolest thing. I mean, you're a
classically trained pianist and now you're on bass or something.
I just thought that was such an interesting method. I
wanted to ask you more about that. That way to
keep a spontaneity in the creative process. Yeah, and I
(10:14):
really gravitate to that now even and I carry that
with me and I learned I've learned so much from
so many people along the way, and that is has
been a really valuable tool. And it's really the reason
I wound up playing bass, because I find myself playing
writing melodies over bass lines, which kept me from just
playing the same chord progressions because as a piano player,
(10:35):
you know, you get comfortable, you know what sounds good,
and I would I would think melody and lyric and
just play the route, and then I would try to
have somebody else come in and play the bass part
and be like, no, that doesn't feel right, so I
wouldn't be in the bass player right and that that
was just such a great way to approach record making,
(10:56):
was by like what can what can I do that
has have been done before? And um and I still
try to do that. That is so cool. You're one
of my my bass playing heroes. I I loved you
and I've I've really rarely heard of people writing on
the base. I think that's the coolest thing that you
use that as as your your muse, your starting point. Yeah,
(11:17):
it's been really I mean, I have this one guitar.
It's an acoustic guitar. It's this nineteen sixty four country
and Western that we call the Little money Maker because
most of the songs that I've made money off of
have been written on that, but um, starting about the
Globe sessions, I started writing on base and wrote my
favorite mistake on base and wrote, I mean there's a
(11:37):
lot of myself that was written on base, and um, yeah,
it's it keeps me from being schlocky, I think. I mean,
speaking of the Little money Maker, I was gonna ask you,
is there an element of I hate to use this word,
but superstition in your songwriting? I mean a certain instrument,
a certain room, a certain time of day, a certain
t that you drink before you start. Is there an
(11:59):
element just to kind of that gets you in in
the zone, for lack of a better term, for when
you start. It's been a really funny um progression for me.
In the old days, we would never record before like
you know, six at night. We generally in the old days,
I would walk in and just have like a couple
(12:20):
of lines for a song, or have a couple of
ideas or whatever, and we would you know, go out
and run around New Orleans or wherever we're recording New York.
We come back after dinner, we drink some beer or
some wine, and you start recording about ten and then
we'd go to like four in the morning, you know,
it would be crazy. And something in my mind was like, well,
(12:41):
I can't write a great song unless I've had some
wine and it's like the middle of the night or whatever.
My last few records I've written between school drop off
and school pick up, and I am so inspired. So
I don't know. I think. I think once you get
that that thing out of your head that tells you
this is the way it's got to be, you can
(13:02):
write anywhere just by sitting quiet, picking up a base
or a great instrument, and just seeing what happens. Do
you find that that the best songs are the ones
that are most effortless, ones that kind of come with
the fastest. Yeah, I think the ones that are the
most anointed are the ones that kind of come out
(13:22):
of nowhere. And then there are those songs that are
good songs that you've crafted because you know how to
craft a song. But I've had a few songs in
my career that came out of nowhere that weren't even
typical of how I write um that I feel like
are just the gifts that you are eternally humbled by.
(13:43):
What are some of those or any to come to mind. Yeah,
I mean Redemption Day is definitely one of those that
that was the song that um came off the heels
of my going and playing for the troops in Bosnia
and I came home because I I split up with
a relationship that I thought was kind of a forever
relationship and was going to you know, right from the heart,
and I just couldn't get anywhere with it. So I
(14:05):
put my guitar down and opened my computer and suddenly
I've written seven or eight stanzas, which is not really
how I write. I don't usually embrace or even adopt
that Bob Dylan cadence. But it just came out of
nowhere as if it was it needed to be written,
and then ultimately Johnny Cash wound up recording it. So
(14:27):
it just goes to show you that music is just
it's not definable. Inspiration is not definable. Um, it's from
some other cosmic space, you know, It's just it's a gift. Yeah,
I wanted to ask you about I'm so fascinated by
the notion of rules in the songwriting because I'm just
(14:48):
that line between rules and raw creativity, and and you've
spoken about how you know listening to people like Burt
back Rack, is it just you know that that's a
great teacher right there, just listening to stuff. How important
our rules in the songwriting? Is that the kind of
thing that you need to know in order to break them.
It's funny when I went to college, I got my
(15:08):
degree in classical piano, and you had to take a
composition class, and they're all these rules, like you can
never use um parallel fists. And now it's all these
um all these rules that are basically meant to be
broken if you're truly tapping into art. And I do
(15:28):
feel that way about songwriting, although I think there's something
really beautiful, and I tell this to young artists all
the time. One of the greatest things you can ever
do is get in a cover band, because even by osmosis,
you you are exposed to what makes music, what makes styles,
(15:51):
what makes a great pop sound great. And for me
having grown up in cover bands and for me learning
how to sing like I mean, being in car bands
and having to sing like Shaka Khan, now you're gonna
sound like Chrissy Hin. Now you're knowing how to manipulate
the voice. All those things are really powerful when you
sit down to try to figure out who you are,
(16:13):
and you're able to pull from these influences. Um. I
I find it to be really helpful. Um. I mean,
I can listen to a bird Back erect song and
I will ultimately if I sit down and start playing,
I will write something that's a little bit different than
if I've just listened to an Eagle song or and
(16:35):
neither one of them less important than the other. That's
so interesting. I never thought of it that way. Almost
reverse engineering these, you know, these hits if you're in
a cover band, to kind of see what what what works? Yeah,
I mean, and it's great, you know, it's great to
know why. Um you know, uh, James Jamerson Baseline can
(16:55):
suddenly make a a song fly out of the radio
and last for fifty years, you know. And those are
the things that if you're lucky and ever get one
of those, um, you know, you can retire happy. What
(17:26):
is your relationship like to music today? Is it is
it a daily practice like some people do yoga and
some people jog, or is it something that you do
only when you feel moved and feel as though you
know you have something to say? Um? Well, it's it's
been different recently because when the pandemic happened, I had
(17:47):
so much free time and it was it was beautiful
free time. I mean, i'd feel a little guilty saying that,
but I didn't have that pole like, oh my gosh,
everybody else was touring. I should be out there touring.
Nobody was touring, and to be able to just it
down and play and have the luxury of getting back
into just loving music, playing other people's songs, and um,
(18:10):
I've gotten more. I just I will more likely go
sit at the piano or pick up my guitar now
and just play for the fun of it than I
have in years. And it feels so great. And my
kids when I first started doing that and practicing, I
mean I started actually practice practicing my own material so
I could do virtual concerts. They're like, what are you doing?
(18:31):
And I said, well, I'm practicing, and they're like, why
are you practicing? You already know how to play. And
I'm like, because practice makes you better, you know, and that,
and because I love it, and it's the reason that
I do it is because it's it's the thing I
left first, and so it's good for them to see
that as well. Um, but yeah, I do write when
I'm I'm inspired, but I also write when I'm not inspired,
(18:54):
and sometimes good songs come out of that. Wow. I
mean that's the craft I guess too, when you can
sit down and make a song even where there was
once nothing, You you get up from your desk later
and there's something right there. Yeah, And that's the great
motivating factor is that you there's there's always that possibility
that you'll come out with something that you've never written before,
(19:15):
and it it makes you feel I think a really
interesting example of that. I was a huge fan of
the Beatles Get Back documentary and to see them. I
think I heard you say that that watching the band
sit down trying to come up with stuff on the
spot and really for a lot of it fail. Uh,
(19:36):
changed your relationship to music in a certain way. I
think was something that I think walking that just blew
my mind. I mean, I think, um, well, first and foremost,
there was so much, so much lore about who they
were and how they broke up and all that, and
you witnessed these friends, I mean, and and not just friends,
(19:57):
but like, um, they were like blunkers. I mean they
literally were like discovering and creating music that has been
the springboard for all of us. And and to witness
the incredible talent. I mean even when they were jamming
(20:19):
up those songs that ultimately wound up on the Wide
album and Abbey Road and Let It Be, Um, just
the incredible musicianship. I was so inspired, um by that
documentary that I went up watching the third one twice
and then went up going in the studio and writing
this song called Forever with my buddy Jeff. That is
(20:41):
right from you know, the Yesterday Handbook or the Blackbird
Handbook of just vulnerability. That song I was going to
ask you about that, your song Forever. I found it
difficult to listen to and watch the video without getting
choked up. I thought it was so truemendously moving, such
(21:02):
a touching piece of music. I wanted to ask you
more about that. Obviously, much of your your your sons
are in there. Um. Then they've never been I've never
let him be a part of mine social media platform.
I've always felt like they need to be shielded from
that because they deserve the right to just be kids
(21:23):
and not be famous. Um. But that song was was
the result of my fifteen year old to me home
and talking about this stress that he experiences at school
and some of his friends experience. And man, kids today
experience so much more stress than we did. I mean
we they're worrying about the big stuff, like whether the
planet is gonna not sustain us. I mean, they're worried
(21:46):
about things that would never have been in my mind.
I would be worried about whether I got asked to
the eighth grade dance. You know that that that was
the kind of worry we had, and um so that
that was the impetus for that song and the inspiration
for it. It's an incredible track. It's on the album
that's accompanying the documentary. There's a few new songs on it.
(22:08):
I also love. But this Way Let It Bleed is
one of my favorite Stones albums ever. Your version of
Live with Me, Oh it rocks. It's so great. What
led you to record that track? It's so awesome? Well,
you know, it's we It's in the documentary and it
was the very first thing I ever got to play
with the Rolling Stones. And man they have been I
(22:30):
mean they're the bedrock for me of I mean, if
it weren't for them, there'd be now Sheryl Crow for sure,
and um, so we thought this would be fun. It's
in the movie. Let's do a cover. Let's do our
version of their song, which is a crazy task in
and of itself. And then and the when we were done,
I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna I'm just
(22:50):
gonna text Mick and just see if he might play
harp on it. I mean, the fact that I could
even text him, that I even have his number is
makes my head one to explode right now. But and
he's said yes, and he's like, send it on and
he did it, and there it is, and it's doing
really well from what I understand. So, um, it's you know,
it's it's so much fun, and it's such a cool
(23:14):
it's such a cool song, and it's so much it's
just a cool thing. I'm so stoked. It's so great.
You're finally gearing up to to head on the road again, finally,
I mean this that's got to just feel so good.
And the boys coming to I know, they've got had
some special guest spots in the past. They always come
with me, and I think at which point they don't
(23:35):
want to come anymore. I'll definitely slow down. I asked
him all that time, do you want me to retire?
Get me stawn home? And They're like, no, no, no,
we love going on the road. We love it, and
but I think at some point girls are going to
enter the picture and going out on the road with
mom is not gonna be as much fun. But we're
excited about it. I mean, it's been a couple of
years that have been really for everybody, really hard to
(23:58):
sit on your hands and to watch people that you
love not be able to work, and so um, yeah,
we're super superside. Sure. I can't wait to see you
out there. So thank you so much for your time today,
and most importantly, thank you for your music. It's given
me and so many people I love so much joy
over the years. You were the best. Thank you. Oh
(24:19):
my gosh, Jordan, thank you for having me on. We
hope you enjoyed this episode of Inside the Studio, a
production of I Heart Radio. For more episodes of Inside
the Studio or other fantastic shows, check out the I
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