S2 E30 - Attorney Ben Crump

Ed talks with attorney Ben Crump. They discuss the killing Tyre Nichols, police reform, and the culture of policing in America.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The d
Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with Attorney Ben Crump. Unfortunately,
Trump is in the headlines again representing the family of
another black man killed at the hands of police. Tyree
nichols death after being beaten by Memphis police has become

(00:42):
yet another instance where video illustrates a group of those
sworn to protect and serve using their positions to brazenly
violate the rights of a citizen and ultimately in the
life of a man who, while being beaten, uttered the
words I'm just trying to go home. Then let me

(01:02):
ask you. I mean all of these deaths, the death
of any human being I view as the same. But
there are deaths that are touch points in this movement.
I think about Rodney King, for instance. I think about
Trayvon Martin. I'm wondering, how you see this death. This
is uh such a tragedy on so many levels. I

(01:28):
never compare and contrast these tragedies because all of them,
Ed Gordon, are very unique. Um, but there are some
that kick off things, they move things, they move a
needle in a different way. I agree, and I think,
you know, just like Rodney King, was a watershed moment

(01:51):
in one when that video was revealed to America. I
think you know this video two thousand twenty three was
a watershed moment for America too, for many similar reasons,
but then for many distinguishing reasons. Obviously, you have police

(02:18):
brutalizing a defenseless and on black man. But then obviously
in two thousand and twenty three with Tyree Nichols and Memphis, Tennessee,
you have those police officers are all African Americans. And

(02:39):
so it's part of a larger conversation where we have
to address the culture of police. And and it's not
whether or not the officer is black, white, or Hispanic,
but it is about who they engage in excessive force

(03:01):
against the brutality that they you know, never out against whom.
And so what I believe, ed Garden, in my almost
twenty five years of doing civil rights law all across America,
many of the cases you and I talked about, ed

(03:21):
it is not the race of the police officer that
is the determining factor of whether or not they're gonna
engage in excessive use of force, But it is the
race of the citizen. And often times it's as black
or brown people, that is who bears the brunt of

(03:44):
the police brutality. Uh, we don't see videos of our
white brothers and sisters being brutalized by police like this.
But how many times have we seen black and brown
people brutalized and shocking video? And you say, but why

(04:09):
George Floyd? You know, uh, Eric Gardner, Alten Sterling, Pambler Turner.
I mean, so many of these videos have shocked our conscience.
We have yet to see a video of a white,
unarmed person being brutalized by the police. Not saying that
it doesn't exist, we just have never seen it. Then

(04:32):
what does it say? You know, so many people were
taken aback by the fact that these officers were black
in a country that is so obsessed with race, and
that race moves the needle on every subject in America.
When you see the idea of this bleeding blue the

(04:52):
sense of officers almost trumping race, what does that say
to us? Well, it says that there's a culture that
exists and that that culture has to be addressed the
fact that there's some innuendo or some unwritten rule that

(05:16):
you can have scorpion units and black and brown neighborhoods
like the police officers who killed Tyree Nichols were a
part of. But you don't have the scorpion units or
these quote unquote jump out boy units in the white neighborhoods.
But then most major cities and most black and brown

(05:38):
neighborhoods of color. And so it tells you it's the
culture really that it is America. It's not just the police.
It's the implicit bias and the criminal justice system. It's
the implicit bias in the legal system. It's the implicit
bias and American society. And so that's what it says

(06:04):
to be Ed Gordon, that and plicit bias is baked
into the fabric of the foundation of America. Then let
me ask you. I can recall when I was a
kid a special unit in Detroit called Stress Uh the
idea that some fifty years later, we're still dealing with

(06:24):
these special units doing the same thing. What does that
say to us in terms of what we need to
do to eradicate this well, Ed Gordon, You're right, these
units have been around for most of our lives. And
we have to remember police historically reformed as the slave patrol.

(06:46):
So we have to remember that we are dealing with
the overarcent issue of racism in America and the fact
that when you look at these units only been mission
for our communities that we have to challenge them. And

(07:09):
then they often come back to us and Gordon and
they say, well, if we're not gonna have these special units,
then how are we gonna keep the high tide of
crime rates uh from going up? And you know, the
reality is the same way you do it for the

(07:29):
white community, because you can't tell us that there's not
crime in the white community. But you seem to be
able to have police respect the constitutional rights of white citizens.
Why can't you have police that respect the constitutional rights
of black and brown citizens. It is whatever the mentality is,

(07:53):
and Gordon, if the mentality is that we're gonna respect
every citizen as value and if we're gonna respect the
humanity and every citizen, then you get a much different
police and department than what we have in most cities

(08:15):
that have made a conscious decision that we don't think
these people of color are worthy of respecting their constitutional
rights like we respect white people in their communities. Been
the first thing that I thought of when I saw
the video, and you've already uncovered this that this was

(08:37):
not the first time that it was very clear to
me that this was something that these officers were comfortable with.
Uh that they probably did um, I don't want to
say necessarily on a regular basis, but certainly not on
an irregular basis. Give me a sense of where you
are in in investigating this kind of thing with the
Memphis Police Department. You know, we've had other citizens now

(09:01):
that have come forward and said they too were victims
of these Scorpion Unit brutality and the use of excessive force,
and so what we have to continue to try to
make people see that this was a pattern and practice,

(09:24):
this was their culture. The fact that after they lysh
Tyree Nickels and we all watched the legend, they had
them in handcuffs beside the car. He slid to one side,
They picked them up out the man, and he slived
to the other side. They picked them up at another minute,

(09:46):
and he failed down a third time. Nobody picked them up.
This time he was just on the ground, moaning and agony.
It was obvious he was in distress. But those officers
Ed Gordon walked the so nonchalanty. They it was like
business as usual. Nobody was alarmed, nobody was upset, nobody

(10:09):
was disappointed out of what the seven, eight, nine, ten,
eleven officers on the scene. So what that tells us
is that this was not the first time they did
it before, and that this was part of the accept
that howding then practice within the Memphis Police Department. Then

(10:30):
you've talked about a blueprint, the idea that Police Chief
Davis uh was quick and swift after seeing this video
of of what she was able to do. I want
you to speak on that, but more specifically, I'd like
you to also speak on the fact that there are
those who have suggested that, um, this was a c

(10:50):
y a for her and that she should have known
the environment that perhaps has been going on. And I'll
underline perhaps in the Memphis Police Department. You know, it's
so telling and how when it was five black police officers,
they were able to terminate them, arrest them, and charge

(11:16):
them in less than twenty days, less than twenty days.
And it just struck me immediately that this is the
blueprint now, this is the blueprint going forward right now
for any police officer that's god committing a crime or

(11:38):
using excessive for us and abusing us. Well, I don't
care if the officer black and white. This is the
blueprint now. And and Chief David said it herself, it
was important that the community see swift action. It was
important that the community to see were moving swiftly towards justice. Well,

(12:04):
it's important when white officers brutalize us too on video
and we have that evidence that the community see swift
justice no longer, ed Gordon. Can they tell us it's
gonna take six months, a year, two years? And I
can give you example at the example, whether you know E. J.
Bradford and Alabama help on video shot in the back,

(12:28):
Eric Gardner. You know there's Tatton All in New York,
the first I can't breathe case, Alton Sterling bad Rouge Louisiana,
Rodney Greene in Louisiana, UH to mirror rights on video,
the Quam McDonald shot sixteen times in the back on video.
And yet they said they took over two years to investigate.

(12:51):
They can't do that anymore because we now are gonna
remind them. Where with the Memphis, Tennessee, with these five
black officers, you did it just fine. So let me
ask you this been do you believe do you believe
that had these been circumstance, everything is the same except
the race of the five officers Memphis, this police chief.

(13:13):
Everything is the same, but the officers are white instead
of black. Do you think you see the swift justice
that you not? Absolutely not. Ronald Green is comparing apples
to apples. Those white officers torture and lench Ronald Green
and yeah, it took two years to investigate them before

(13:34):
they were charged. Let me take you to to the
politics of all this. Uh many of us, Chief Davis, Um,
I know many people in Atlanta have contacted us and
said the Scorpion Unit sounded a lot like the Red
Dog Unit when uh, Chief Davis was in Atlanta. So

(13:59):
we will have to, you know, learn about the Red
Dog Unit and compare the Scorpion Unit and to see
if people in Atlanta are accurant. Yeah, and let's be clear, ben,
I mean, let's not you know, play ring around the
roses with any of this. Any of these units in
any city that you're going to find are going to

(14:21):
be comparatively speaking violent. I don't care what anybody tells me.
History shows that these units have gone and and and
kind of a eye for an eye, tooth for a
tooth mentality by the police and in some in in
some instances, you understand that, But there has to be
a line that's drawn. Uh, just for the humanity of mankind. Yeah,

(14:43):
and the fact that Tyree had humanity. Uh, you know,
George Floyd had humanity. Oh, these black people who were
armed were old a duty of not just respect then professionalism,
but of mere humanity. If they had offer him out

(15:07):
of humanity, there's a good chance Tyree Nichols will still
be alive today. Before we get to the politics of it,
I'm sorry, but let me just ask this because that's
marks a question for me. But here is a kid
who really did everything that we teach our children to do.
He wasn't belligerent, He didn't speak back when he said alright, alright,

(15:33):
I'm on the ground when they told him me all
of the things we tell our kids. He tried, he
tried to diffuse the situation. You've you've been hearing about
this for days and days now. I'm curious what we
have to think about when you look at that police report. Um,
that was not, in any way, shape or form anything

(15:53):
close to what the video showed. How do we protect
against that because judges will oft times immediately take the
police report as gospel. Yeah, you know, it shows that
more often than not, the police conspired to cover up
the atrocities that they UH engage in and black and

(16:17):
brown communities. Uh And I'm sure and a lot of situations.
But it underscores what Vice President Kamala Harris and I
briefly spoke about at the funeral UH of Tyree Nichols
UH in Memphis, Tennessee. We talked about the fact that

(16:37):
it's so important to content, whether we have to do
it federally or put pressure on the states and the
municipalities to make your officers are outfitted with these body
cameras because it's about transparency. Transparency of the key is
the key, because the turning off cameras off been Yeah,

(17:01):
but have we not had that video, the police report
would have reigned supreme, and we should make it a
federal offense. If you have operated body came of video
you turn it off, that's obstruction of justice. Because we
can be able to get transparency. And then on the

(17:22):
question is can we get accountability to get to equal justice.
But it first start with transparency. We got to have
the body cameras on. They gotta be able to see.
And I thank Tyree Nichols parents so much for saying no,
let Americans see, let the world see how they you know, brutalized. Tyree.

(17:45):
I want to get to them because when I talk
to you the other night, I called you, um, they
have been extraordinary and all this and and ofttimes we
see many of these families. I want to get to
them in a second. But let me ask you this
been the political side of it. Uh uh. Vice President
Harris at the funeral, we know the want to bring

(18:05):
federal legislation. Yet we should be clear that federal legislation
on a state level doesn't always translate uh in terms
of washing the baby clean, so to speak. So talk
to me about what the importance of federal legislation will
be and why it's important to have state and municipality

(18:26):
legislation as well. Yeah, you know, Ed Gordon. We cannot
be naive. We have to understand that cat in federal
legislation passed is not going to be easy. You know,
we haven't had substitutive systematic police reform, says President Lyndon

(18:48):
Bange John in great society and legislation in the nineties sixties.
We didn't get it with Fridday King, we didn't get
it in the aftermath of Michael Brown being killed in Ferguson,
and during the President of Obama's administration, we didn't get
it and George Floyd and now we're trying yet again,

(19:13):
but this tragic killing of Tyree Nichols. But we have
the strike of match and never cursed the darkness because
even though we didn't get the George Flowred Justice and
Police Act passed at the Brianna Taylor and George Floyd
was killed and jested by police officers, what we did
was had over five hundred cities and municipalities pastor George

(19:36):
Floyd laws talking about the fact that they're bannon chokeholes
are prohibited choke holes. And we had municipalities of the
states across the country after Brianna Taylor was killed saying
that they're not gonna allow uh no non search warrants anymore,
or they're not gonna allow them to be served that night.

(19:57):
So we're making progress. It's just that we have to
always keep fighting because as the Great Frederick Douglas said,
without struggle, there can be no progress. Then how do
we change uh? And what can the citizen redue to
assist you in the fight, Because one of the things
I'm afraid of is hashtags posting being trendy, people celebrities,

(20:26):
those of note showing up at these funerals, posting them
at these funerals quite frankly with some music behind it,
and their sense of oh, I'm in tribute to this
family and trip, but really I'm saying this, you're not.
It is as much a tribute to say, look at me,
look who I am. How do we make sure that

(20:47):
it just doesn't become trendy? And what can we do
to assist to move the needle? All is good, but
you know me, Ben, I'm gonna tell it like I
see it. And that's a lot of it, like, oh,
I'm here as opposed to lending support um in a
real sense. Yeah, Now it's real because a lot of
people with influence, they are they like to play it safe.

(21:09):
They may show up for a photog but they don't
contribute to the crucial aspects of pushing the line of
trying to make sure that we turn the rhetoric into policy,
and a lot of that is trying to do the

(21:29):
grunt work where you have people mobilized to go to
city hall meeting and sit there with the city council
like white soccer moms. When they have an issue, they go,
let's sit at all meeting and nobody's gonna do anything
until they address their issue. But that's why we as
people of carl Anthonia about our children too. Uh. And

(21:51):
the state legislatures, you know, so many times they have
Germanic these districts. But the reality is if we go
the vote, we can at least take the governor's matching
because they do count every vote in the state often time.
And so we have to be mobilizing voters to be

(22:12):
motivated the fourth the election. And I'm happy to say
during this Black History man, you know, at the same
Thomas University, uh College of Law in Miami, Florida, they're
gonna have a historic event where they named the law
school left the media and I'm very humbled by it,

(22:32):
but it would be the first time in America that
the law school will be named after practicing black lawyer,
my personal hero, Thurgood Marshall. Uh. You know, they named
the Texas Southern Law School after him while he was
on the Supreme Court bench as a judge. But this
law school's mission is going to be focused on getting

(22:56):
young people of color civil rights UH lawyers, making the
next generation of civil rights lawyers and social justice warriors.
So if you want to be able to overcome these
obstacles in these impediments to equality and justice, education is

(23:16):
the key. It is always about education and the moral
little black and brown children. We can give law degrees
who will come and help be the next Thurgood Marshals
and the next UH Constant Marchli Bakers and Johnny Cockers.
The better off we're gonna be are and those with
influence they can donate and make sure these kids who

(23:40):
have the intellect, they've checked all the boxes, they just
don't have the financial resources. That there's this school in
the heart of the minority community in Miami will permission
to represent the underserved and been crumped to that UH
illustrious list of names you just gave there. I'm not

(24:00):
gonna act like I didn't talk to you earlier. We
talked all the time and say congratulations, but let me
say it for the for the crew. Congratulations being proud
of you. Let me ask you a couple of other things,
just really quickly, because I know you gotta go. One
of them is just this, when we think about the
extraordinary nature of these parents who have to now face cameras,
millions of people be placed with not only grieving but

(24:23):
trying to keep their loved ones name alive and moved
towards justice. So not only are you thrown into the
lions then, but it's a much bigger picture than we
could ever ever imagine. Give me a sense of how
this family is handling this. I called you a few
days ago to say, particularly his mom but his stepfather

(24:45):
to have been extraordinary. Yeah, they are incredibly graceful. Um,
but it's not easy, you know. Ms Provine Wales. Tyree's
mother said. The only way she's able to cope with
this air as she has to believe God said her

(25:06):
son to Earth for an assignment, and that his assignment
is finished now he's gone back to his heavenly father,
and that she has to believe some good it's gonna
come out of desk or it'll make her go crazy.
Way she lost her child, and so I thank her
and Mr Rodney Wells her husband. They are reminded me

(25:31):
a lot of you know, Trey Min's parents, Tracy Martin
Sabrina Fort. They remind me of Terence Crunch's parents, Reverend
Joey Crutcher and Catherine Crutcher. I mean, and it's not
fair at all. Uh. I think of Brianna Taylor's mother,

(25:52):
I mean, who everybody said was just a regular round
the way girl. But because she had suddenly be thrust
in this public you know, uh, limelight that she had
to become the voice for her child and everybody else

(26:12):
we mentioned their child and they have to define the legacy.
If not, it would be as if their child life
then matter. As you know, Ravanna is the latest and
I hope there will be many more, but I regrettably
we know there will be. Lastly, Ben, what do we
look for as as this moves forward? Um? You know,

(26:35):
what what are the next steps and and what what
should we be watching? Well, obviously the State of the
Union addressed. The President is going to have the family there, uh,
and that's gonna be big because we want the President
to talk about you know, police reforming, the need for
police reform, and you know they're reintroducing it Senator Booker

(26:57):
and Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee there and the Senate in
the House. Politics is the art of negotiation. I don't
know if we're gonna get everything in the bill, but
we need to pass to George L Justice and police
and a well. We will certainly look to that and
encourage all who listen and watch this too. It does

(27:22):
not lose sight. Contact your congressman and your Senator and
make sure that they understand that this is what you want.
Ben Crump is always my friend. Thank you very much,
Keep on keeping on, brother, and I love you man,
and congratulations on the new show Black in America. Alright,
love you back then. One hundred is produced by ed

(27:45):
Gordon Media and distributed by I Heart Media. Carol Johnson
Green and Sharie Weldon are our bookers. Our editor is
Lance Patton Gerald. All Right composed and performed our theme.
Please join me on Twitter and Instagram at l Gordon
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