February 14, 2023 • 42 mins
Ed talks with Former NBA star and activist Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf. They discuss the documentary, Stand that looks at how converting to Islam and his decision to peacefully protest the flag cost the former all-star years of his thriving career.
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Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with Macmuve abdul Rauf born
Chris Jackson, the Mississippi native with star in basketball in
high school, becoming a McDonald's All American. He would go
on to star at l s U, where he played
with Shaquille O'Neil. Jackson became an All American and the
(00:44):
third pick of the NBA draft. He played for nine
seasons with three teams in the NBA and averaged almost
fifteen points per game in spite of playing with Tourette syndrome.
He was on track to be a perennial star, but
his career would be derailed by a number of events.
(01:05):
In n he converted to Islam, and two years later
he changed his name to mak Mu abdul Rauf. In
he refused to stand for the Star spangled banner before games,
saying the American flag was a symbol of oppression and tyranny.
The NBA would soon suspend abdul Rove and from that
(01:28):
point on, his career would never be the same and
was cut short. His journey is chronicled in the new
documentary stand Streaming now on showtime with all that occurred
with the NBA men, because I thought about putting myself
in your shoes, right, because those of us who love
(01:49):
basketball for long time understand the short shrift you get. Frankly,
if you look at your numbers and look at all
of the things. When they talk about guards, they're not
throwing your name out there when they should. Quite frankly,
just this is numbers across the boards that did you
ever have to fight bitterness? Oh? Of course I was
(02:11):
a bit of for a long time. Uh. You know
when you put so much work in and you really
you pride yourself because you were raised to be respectful,
to be courteous, to be fair, and you know, you
you make a decision that makes people uncomfortable and because
of that decision, you know, they treat you different. Your
(02:34):
career dissipates, uh, and not because you said anything that
was inaccurate. It is because they just didn't like it. Yeah.
You You you become bitter because you you affect a
person's livelihood. And as African Americans, we don't have generational
wealth and a lot of us we give our life.
(02:55):
And I'm not saying you know, our environment has a web,
moting and shaping it. So you know, if if I
grew up in an environment where hey man, my mother
she had this type of education, we didn't grow up with,
you know, being taught critical thinking skills and problems solving
in and the conditioning that takes place in society with
(03:15):
a lot of us to the imagery and stuff man,
and to think, to to shrink and to disappear, you know.
Uh uh, So we spend so much time becoming absorbing ourselves,
were trying to hone our skills, and then now we
make it we don't again because we don't have generational wealth.
(03:37):
Not only we responsible taking care of just our immediate family,
and we got to take it a whole bunch of
other fails and we're and we're lacking those other skills
of investing and stuff like that. And you take that away, uh,
you affect not only that person, you affect families. So
it took man, it took her. It took her, wow
for me, uh to grapple with you know, and I'm
(04:00):
I'm I'm still bitter, m But I'm I've always prided
myself on how do I say this? I don't think
there's anything wrong with being angry, with being bitter about
what's worth being bitter and angry about it doesn't paralyze
me though, right, you know, I've never been a person
(04:21):
where I've been paralyzed by it. But if if you
did something to me for slavery and we haven't been
compensated and you still are doing the same old things
and the same pattern exists, no, I'm going no, justice
hasn't been served, and then you're still doing it to others. No,
(04:43):
you haven't learned your lessons. So yeah, I'm bitter about that.
But yeah, I know. I was just gonna say. I
did a commentary a few months back about the tag
of an angry black man or angry angry black woman,
and I say, you know what, Yeah, I'm angry, and
I got a right to be. I don't to always
throw that away. You know. People say I don't want
to be seen as angry black man, but sometimes I
(05:03):
want to be seen as the angry black man. That's right.
I'm angry Dale Brown before I even knew it was him.
I love him, you know, but we had our differences.
We should know your coach in college, y, Yeah, Dale Brown,
of my coaching college, he uh, And I didn't know
it was him for the longest. He would send me
emails and sometimes and I told him this some time ago.
(05:25):
I said, man, you would send me emails and they
came off as like anti Islamic, right, And I didn't
know it was you for a while until one day
he said something about you sound like an angry black man.
I said, you make it sound like angry is always bad.
I said, if it wasn't for anger, we wouldn't defend ourselves.
God gave us anger, sadness, happiness. He gave us these
(05:47):
emotions to use appropriately, right. And then so we start
going on a tangent with each other, and he was
starting my spiritualism myself with some people say spiritual, you know,
as a euphemism for being atheist. So you just have
a dialogue. I said, hold on, man, I said this
this the Dale Brown of l s U. He said yes,
I said, I've been having this dialogue. But he with
(06:09):
the angry black man too, And that was my response
to him, like you, look, if we if you have
a right to be angry, look, don't hide it. You know,
people need to know when you when you don't express yourself,
people will never know your pain and then you know.
So no, I want you to know that you you
did something to me that I don't like. They want
(06:31):
to pacify us, you know, with love and love, and
don't do that. No, no, no, man, you got a
right to be angry. I agree with Hollywood and history
books always want to paint America as a tolerant nation.
It is tolerant at times. It is an intolerant nation
more often than America wants to admit. I'm curious for you.
(06:54):
I think about all of the things that America saw
white American in particular saw as intolerant as relates to you.
So here's a guy. We loved him as Chris Jackson,
but he didn't change his name now and he wanted
him Muslims. Here's a man who had to deal with
Tourette's in public in a way that was put on
(07:17):
a stage much larger and far before anyone even knew
what Tourette's was. Here was a black man who was
not afraid to speak up and say what his beliefs
and thinking were, bucking a system that wants you to
stay in line. When you look at all of these things,
(07:38):
which one was hardest for you to deal with. You
know what, that's a that's a great question. It's never
been asked. But if I'm shooting for an answer right now,
I would say, it is the It is the feeling
that I don't have a right to this agree and
(08:01):
to look down on the oppressiveness or the oppression that
America is causing that just because you have reached this
plateau of fame and wealth and now we've allowed you,
you know, to be in this country club environment. You know,
(08:23):
how dare you feel that you have that type of
right to speak out as if though I'm supposed to
forget about where I came from. You know, it's like
we are taught, you know, and I believe this, we
are taught to look at our wounds as nothing compared
(08:43):
to the depth of gratitude of being America. But America
would't be anywhere without us, right And so you hear
this thing was America that gave you this? What hold on,
let's let's let's let's follow that logic a little further.
You've had three hundred and fifty something years of a
free label, you've had You've had also those same amount
(09:05):
of years of not paying taxes on that Laby, you've
been able to accrue generational wealth, you know, So we
are old a major you know, you have as a
major debt old to us, and you want to talk
about what America has done for me, done for us
not And so it's amazing when so to me, that
was the greatest insult. It's like, again, how dare you?
(09:30):
But also this is a this is a person that
we lost because he changed his name, right, we lost him.
We don't have him no more. And I think that
was a great that's also a great offense to them
as well. And this is I think one of the
most dangerous things when you deny a person a history
of their coach and who they are, because you become
(09:51):
susceptible to someone else's interpretation of who you are and
they don't always have your best interests, which history has
shown us. So this was the one that burned me
more as I began to read, I'm like, wow, the arrogants,
you know, if people you know, to take that position,
and so that made me go hard. You know, that
(10:12):
made me go harder. There's a certain freedom that one
has once they crossed the street, right, So once you
decided you know what do what you will. But I'm
I'm staying here. Talk to me about the day you
you read you gave yourself that freedom, and how that
changed the dynamic for you, because it's like anything else.
(10:34):
I tell people all the time, the thing that you're
most afraid of, it's the anticipation. Frankly, that is far
worse than the actuality. I agree, I agree. I can't
pick the day, but I can repeat the moment when
my my mind began to shift. And that's when Dale Brown,
my coach at LSU, gave me the autobiography of Malcolm
(10:55):
I began to read about his life man, just how
his mind worked ideal with rhetoric and not jeez, you know,
just the courage that he had. I'm like, man, I
didn't have it because growing up in the South, you know,
your environment shapes and MOSI right, seeing how your family
and people around you interact with whiteness, began to do
the same thing right and and to be silent over
(11:16):
things you shouldn't exciting about. And he was just the opposite.
But I'm like, man, I want that, and so I began.
As a result, I ended up becoming Muslim. I began
to read like I've never read before in my life,
and my the height of my education came on the road.
I would meet people. We stay up two, three, four
o'clock in the morning. They have different disciplines, some be
(11:37):
great and uh social sciences or politics or religion. And
we talked and they introduced me books, introduced to me
books that I've never heard about. Authors I've never heard about,
the Gnomes, the howard Zins, the Kawanzak and Jewfus, the
Aimos in Wilson's I Mean your name. So I'm reading
and reading them, soaking in and I'm learning about things
globally and wow, I've never heard of it. I'm reading
(11:59):
The Prince of Slaves, you know, I'm reading everything. And
that's when it began to dawn on me. I said, man,
I felt I've been cheated. And I didn't like the
way that felt. And I got mad because I'm looking
at my history. I'm like, wow, man, I I put
all my life into the game, and I didn't know
(12:20):
statistically I had a better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer,
and then all of these, all of the greatness like
we taught to Africa was this. But then I'm looking
at Timbuctoo. Before West, the West had universities and books
with the number one commodity. They had street lights, they
had civilism. And now I'm I'm literally feeling the weight
(12:42):
of the insult that America has has given to me,
and that I just couldn't sit still like man, you know,
Waldo Emerson said, wherever you go, there you are. You
can't run. So I couldn't run. I'm like, I can't
pretend no more. And so that's when things began in
the shift for me. And I said, I gotta start
(13:02):
taking steps towards learning how to say no, learning how
to stand up. And the more you do it, the
more you practice, the better it gets. Like you said,
the worst thing is the anticipation, but then it's usually
less than what you thought it was gonna be. And
and and I decided at that moment, I said, I'm
not going to allow my enemies to outmaneuver my destiny.
(13:26):
You know what I mean. Maybe there is no difference,
but if there is, what's the biggest difference in Chris
Jackson and Mark mul abdul Rov. Is there a difference, Yes,
The biggest difference is Chris Jackson tried to stay away
(13:48):
from conflict, you know. He he he didn't want to
raise his hands in class to ask questions, and he
didn't want someone to point him out to answer them.
He just he he believed in God, he prayed, He
believes in courtesy and kindness, all of those things. But
he was non confrontation right. He had an inferiority complict.
(14:12):
He looked at himself academically as being inadequate. I no
longer look look at it that way, you know, our
own I look at you know, look man, I'm you know,
we can go to the highest of the hype high,
or we can demote ourselves to the lords of it.
When I look at look at it now, I'm like, look, man,
(14:33):
God gives me a mind, He gives me abilities, like
he gives you know, all of us different stuff. But
it's up to me to utilize. And I plan on
utilizing every last bit of it. I'm not gonna apologize.
And I was living a life and a lot of
us are talked to walk this earth in a constant
state of apologize. To apologize for being black, apologized being smart,
apologized with being rich, I apologized walking by you. I
(14:56):
apologize for saying you hurt me, you just hit me,
but I apologize but expressing to you that you've heard me.
I will not live my life as an apology. This
is the my move that didn't exist when I was
Chris Jackson. You know time, often I tell people it's
(15:17):
the time you're in that determines outcome often, you know
m hm. So I think about when you decided to
uh and will steal the title of the documentary stand,
when you decided to stand and then literally just bow
your head during the national anthem as a means of protest.
(15:41):
I'm wondering how you saw the difference in media coverage
and how America and how white American particular, but even
even those in Black America at that time viewed you
the issue, the circumstance and juxtaposed that to what Colin
Kaepernick went through to what were the differences you saw? Well, um,
(16:06):
definitely with with white America. It was more of an
attack of condemnation. Who who did this guy think? He
is trying to brand me as being ignorant, unaware of
the circumstances and what America is really about? You had
did you have some of that in Black America? Of
course you're gonna always have that. But I think more
(16:28):
so depending on the publications. Uh, because we look as
black people, we share similar experiences. You can't out class racism.
I don't care if your doctor, lawyer, y'all feel it.
And so I think more so in the black commentary
it was less of it. Uh, it was more supportive
(16:52):
then by far the white commentary, as it pertains the
Kaepernick Um. I think you asked the difference, uh h
And there were so many similarities. You know. I received
a lot of death threats, I received hate, man, but
I also received just as much, if not more, support
made Christians, Jews, women, men, white, black atheists saying, man,
(17:16):
we believe we we we we we follow you, we
support you, we we we we agree with you. And
they start breaking down history right in those letters. But
the difference is that we didn't have social media. H
and so in his day and age, people can get online.
And one of the examples I which is powerful. One
(17:36):
of the examples I used is when the football playout
the law went into the end zone. He went into
prostration the NFL media and said we're gonna find him
suspending people got on social media. What about t bow
and they had to pull back the t bow doing
he and all that stuff. Right, So that was the
game changer with Kaepernick because now you can you can
(17:57):
see the overwhelming support. Unlike my time, the media was
probably receiving the same, but they can choose to control
the narrative more and hold that information back. And let's
just focus on this right here. It was. It's interesting
because the note I have here to ask you about.
It's just that you know, in a real sense, had
the NBA allowed you to quietly see this is what
(18:21):
people miss in the beginning, you make a big deal
of it. You were very quiet in the beginning with
the protest. The media exploded it. The media exploded its right, um,
it's cause which caused the NBA they were forced to
(18:41):
do something. But the NBA also probably knew they have
personnel sitting and look, man, the NBA, they were gonna
suspend me, the guy that finds people, right, but they
have people that watched to see what you want doing,
and and they're trying to find reasons to find you.
They were gonna find me a thousand dollars per stock
(19:03):
because the NBA emblem wasn't even show so you're telling
me four months prior to the next season, I'm on
the sideline. You got your security, you got all these
people in the NBA, and you don't see me not
standing because why the NBA didn't see no big deal.
They made it a big deal because the media made
it a big deal. So now you want to bring
instead of protecting me, you want you, you want to
(19:25):
you want to condemn me for it without and so
to me, that was it was very hypocritical for them
to do that. The vitriol against abdul Raouf was real,
beyond regular death threats. He's lost millions, his home was
burned to the ground, and ultimately he lost his basketball career.
(19:45):
When we talk about what you went through it, you know,
sometimes people received death threats and those that don't receive
them don't know how frightening and real that can be
when you receive them. They burned your house down, the
house that you would be old and you know this
was real, and yet the convictions stayed the same. Was
(20:06):
that simply faith? Was that how you were raised? What
was that that kept you to say, I'm not gonna waiver, man,
I'm glad you asked that. You know, we're taught and
it's man to contemplate death every day, not in a
morbid type of way. Says that death brings you closer
to God because we all, we were all gonna leave here,
(20:27):
and so death is also we believe, you know, we're
taught not to fear none, nothing of no one but God.
Death is a creation. They say death, when it served
its purpose, it will die, So we're not to fear that.
So I think about just like the game, I would
imagine scenarios and opponents touching hand in the face, and
(20:52):
it gets to the point where you train so much
and even when nobody's out there, you're feeling attention and
you're going through to three different invisible people, you begin
to see two three moves ahead and you the game
becomes easy. So for me, literally, yeah, I knew it
was serious, but because I think of death all the day,
(21:14):
and I you know, I pondered rationalize it, and I
know it exists, not to fear it. I literally that
didn't even phase me because we're also taught that whatever
God has for me, nobody can keep it from me,
and whatever He don't want me to have, nobody can
give it to me. You can't rush nor the delay
(21:36):
the time that's allotted for you. People say, what about
people commit suicide. There are more people statistically trying to
commit suicide that failed that those who succeed, because it
ain't there time. I'm constantly having this dialogue. So when
this stuff has happened, I was like, look, man, it
is what it is. I'm not gonna ben you know.
If it's my time, it's my time. So because I'm resting,
I'm having these conversations talking to myself. It gave me
(22:00):
strength to continue because I don't feel that. And I'm
not saying that like oh I'm just tough like no, no, no,
I'm not saying not too fear. A healthy element of
fear is good because it keeps you cautious. It helps
you to protect yourself, you know. But I'm talking about
this unhealthy to where it paralyzes. Yeah, you I was cautious.
(22:22):
Now I'm I'm I'm looking around, I'm I'm having my protection.
I'm doing all of that, but it's not gonna paralyze
me to where I'm gonna be silent. I'm not gonna travel,
I'm not gonna move around with my No. No, God
is in control. So that helped me and still does.
Let's get to the basketball side of your life again.
As I mentioned to you earlier when we started, I
(22:45):
think because of all that happened, people forget or never
learned about if they were too young, the sheer talent
you were and the shooter you were. You know, Listen,
there are a list of cats that were just shooters period,
you know, and we can tick them off. We know
Ray Allen, Reggie Miller's you know, uh, Steph Curry obviously.
(23:08):
I mean, we can go down the list, and often
because of what happened, your name does not make it
in that list in the media. But those of us
who know the game, follow the game, watch the game,
understand that you're in that list of cats. Uh, your
third pick in the ninety NBA draft, behind I think Coleman,
(23:31):
Derek Buddy of mine and and Gary Payton. So talk
to me about draft day for you, because for everybody
when you you know, that's a that's a dream fulfilled
Talk to me about that first. I mean draft day, man,
I was nervous. Uh, you know, it was a huge step.
(23:51):
You heard, Okay, you're going in between one and five.
More So, leaned closer to five. Uh, you're thinking about
all those years man of putting in that work. But
also there was this unhealthy man sense of fear, you know,
because now you know we've been conditioned. Like I said,
(24:14):
uh uh, I can't help to say this. And I said,
all the time, our environment, the language, things that we see,
the things that we here, it influences us. And so
I could never truly embrace success because I was always
looking over my shoulder, Man, this is too good to
be true. Something's gonna happen and I and it didn't take.
(24:36):
It took years later when I started analyzing whatever I
grew up listening to and hearing all the time, right
And one of the shows, two shows that I used
to look look look at religiously, was Sad for the
Son a good Time, And I started saying, well, you know,
they live in the same similar socio economic backgrounds and
live but every day we were hoping that they make
(24:57):
it out to ghetto because if they make it out,
we feel like we make it out. But every day
it seemed like when they were close to making and
something would happen to kick him right back in. And
I so I said, darn, this is where a lot
of this is coming from. I gotta change. I gotta
change what I consumed. And so I couldn't answer you
a question. I was happy, I was scared. I didn't
(25:17):
want to get on no plane. I was like, man,
I gotta sign this deal, and please God, don't let
this plane. I'm so I want to take care of
my mom. Wonta take care of my family. I want
to help people. So it was a mixture of emotions
going through that draft day that I was wrestling with.
But I was a man. I'm so happy. And then
you got now you gotta be a grown man. Now
(25:38):
you gotta go to a new city. And so these
are sometimes people don't think they's always just a great man.
I gotta go to new city. I gotta I ain't
never paid no bills. I gotta find a house. I
gotta learn how to really be grown up now, you know.
And so it was these I couldn't really enjoy it
because these things were just you know, being They were
(25:59):
overwhelming to me at the time. Each step of the ladder,
for an athlete, he is a proof, whether you believe
it or not. Some some go in walking in believing
there they have the talent to be there, and some
are unsure until they get there. L s U. It
almost comes quicker, I think than you imagine to know
(26:21):
that you belong there. And and look, I got game
for this level. Yeah, what was it in the NBA?
Was it as quick? No? And the NBA wasn't as quick,
And a lot of it was my fault. Uh, And
I'm gonna I'm gonna say the first year, so most
of it was my fault because I was listening to
(26:42):
the wrong people. They were saying you need to be bulky.
I never had a train in my life, you know. Uh.
And so I started eating, but my workouts didn't match
my because I was too busy. I was too busy
trying to gain, not thinking like man, I just left L.
S U. The guys that make it the pro the
ones is leaving college with similar looties. But I ended up.
(27:02):
I was like nineteen percent body fact. And then you
have Paul West said, with a running style. And so
even though I still felt that with that style, given
the opportunity to be I mean I numbers are padded
when you have a running running team. Fourteen points ain't
really Yeah, but uh, it was more so me. That's
(27:27):
why I didn't come as fast if I would have
came into shape, which I eventually got into, because even
at that weight, I had my moments where I could
I just couldn't get to my spot as quick. But
I can still get my shot. I can make my shot. Um.
And so it took me my third year, I believe uh.
And And actually that second year, I began to lose
(27:50):
weight and show promise, but Paul West said was still
playing with my minutes. I don't think he really wanted
me there because Doug Moe was the one that drafted
for me. They fired him and brought in all. And
then the third years when dan Issel came and I
lost a total of counting from when Ramadan started to
the next year, I lost forty pounds. I came back
at my high school weight and I listened to me.
(28:12):
Then I ain't listened to them. They not even tell
him I was too small. I said, I heard the
first one, I'm gonna follow me, and that's when I
came and I got most and groups. So it took
me that kind of midway through that second to that
third year to say, Okay, enough is enough, you know,
what people miss often in in elite athletes is the
work ethic. Yeah right, I heard you talk about how
(28:37):
Turette's having Turette's and and clearly talking to you now
I've been watching all the interviews you're doing. People don't
realize where you were when you were playing with Tourett's
in terms of twitch and all that you were going.
I mean it was heavy then, right, So you have that,
(28:57):
you have the idea of a work ath think that
most cats that sit on the couch and say, I
don't know why he missing that free throw. I don't
know why he can't catch that, And I tell the negro,
you wouldn't need caught the ball. You wouldn't have caught
up to the ball. You wouldn't you know, it's easy
from the couch, right. So I heard you talk about
somebody like who you play with shock and just a
(29:19):
supreme specimen of a man and athletic and all the things,
who was willing to work and somebody like Stanley Roberts,
who most people won't remember, who maybe had more just
ability and raw talent, who wouldn't have to work at it,
which hurts you because you feel like you don't have
to work at it. What did you do to make
(29:43):
sure that you worked at it? Well, there's a couple
of things. I mean, one of them is just how
naturally to Retz pushes you itself, like mentally, it's a
man embody on two different wave lengths. You know. If
it's something, especially something you value, it's like it's another
person that's influencing you. And if you don't do what
(30:05):
it says do, it's gonna bother you the rest of
the day, and it's gonna is going to increase your
your ticks and your symptoms. The other part of that
is I grew up always, you know, my grandmother, aunt
and the uncle always you know, taught me the value
of Yeah, believe in God, but don't take anything for granted.
(30:27):
As quick as God give it to you, he can
take it away from So I never allowed myself to
get comfortable. Oh no, I never allowed myself to become complacent, right,
And I think there's a fine line between comfort and
complacency or confidence and concumens. And so I always always
(30:47):
told myself, I don't care if I score fifty, never
get complacent. There's always room for improvement. Like every time
something happened. I'm sending messages back to myself daily, right,
and I'm always creating, creating, uh motivators. Right, I'm thinking
about my mom. I'm thinking about an opponent that I
(31:08):
may have to meet someday. That's tall as fast as stocky.
That's strong. I'm thinking about helping people someday. So someday
my mom. The idea of my mom ain't strong enough.
I gotta pull from this motivator, from always having dialogue
with myself, telling myself, you know, uh, trying, I want
to be the best to play, but also never be complacent.
(31:30):
That's always room for improvement. Never be complacent. There's always
room for improvement no matter what happens. To keep me grounded,
to keep me humbling, hungry, humbling, hungry all the way through,
and then always trying to but if if whatever I do,
I'm always trying to make my workouts harder, if I
if they go in all net. Now I wanted to
(31:52):
come back to me, and then I wanted to go
off the glass and go in. Then I wanted to
go off the glass all net. And I'm talking about
food speed and no glitches in the move. Or you
gotta go back to zero and and and it's like
near death experience almost every day. And so it's a
combination of the Turettes, but also the way I was
raised to think, you know, never get complacent, always feel
(32:13):
this room for improvement, and that kept me balanced. One
would talk to you now and never know you ever
were afflicted as you were back in the day. What
what did you do? What have you done to control it? Man?
But I'm controlling it better. But it's looked from the
moment I wake up, like you see me now, you
might see me doing this. M hmm. I've I've managed
(32:36):
to be able to camouflage it. I may I may
do something like this and it looks like I'm stretching,
but that's I might like. I'm my body sow on Twitter,
but a note in some present at the time, almost
a hundred. It's a tick. But I've learned to like
do it slower, but it's still strong as opposed growing.
(32:59):
I like, I've learned how to slow it down. But
I try to prayer. I mean, I'm big on prayer.
I'm big on trying to watch what I eat and
how much I eat, because I've noticed how certain foods
it'll it'll increase my heart rate, which will also you know,
increase my symptoms. Try to get I'm a I'm a naptaker,
(33:21):
but also I try to stay also away from negative stress.
So all of those things I tried incorporated in my life.
That's been working for me. All right. Last two questions, brother,
and this is uh one that I always love to
ask athletes. Not the best player you ever saw? Who's
(33:41):
the best player you played against? You had to go
to care you Rod big d and Rod was even
though another underrated cat like pros will tell you, Rod
Stricken a lot. Rod Strickling was one of those two.
He was one of those guys. He may not have
been taking a lot of political stand but Rod was
(34:03):
a man's man. He's gonna if he if he wants,
If he don't agree with something he don't agree with.
If you agree with he agree with, they ain't like that.
He should have made he should have been a Parential
All Star, but it wasn't because he was prolific with
his shot, like free throw line extended, he could make that.
But he was herky jerk. Yeah is right left. We
(34:25):
had great bouts with each other, but he was just
one of those girls. He was just crafted. How they
saying fighting styles fighting. You have a champion that's whipping
everybody he gets with somebody else, it's like the dude
been losing, but but somehow he can't beat him. Rod
was just he was I say this, I've been saying
(34:45):
this for years. I ain't let you finish. It was
quick to say it. Yeah, and it's interesting. Man. Rod
again would not be a guy at the media. A
lot of people would immediately say, but pros I talked
to well Ely say, who's one of the baddest guds.
You have boomed period period offense and defense, and like
(35:08):
you said, crafty everything, I'm gonna get this rebound. Well
he ain't that big. Well yeah, I'm get this rebound. Right.
So all right, I gotta ask you the favorite uh
barbershop question, and that is coming out of Lebron taking
the scoring title? Who is your goat? I don't, I don't.
I don't even really like the title because I I
(35:30):
tell people, look, it's errors. For me, it's errors, right,
it's errors. But let's let's play the game anyway. So
for me, as much as I admire Lebron, for as
much as I think that in his totality on and
off the court, I might have to nod him. But
(35:50):
for cap my age to watch Michael and what he did,
it's hard for me to put anybody above him. For you,
where where do you sit at that discussion. I'm gonna
go even a little further, and I think people feel
forget about Will myself, but well, I'm gonna go even.
I'm gonna go another angle now and I wouldn't. I
(36:11):
would give. I would give even over Lebron. It ain't
just a you know, because Michael didn't play those years either,
But it ain't just the point thing. I would give
the nod before I tell you this other person. I
would give the nod out of those two to Jordan's too,
you know when I look at But I'm gonna tell
you another person when you look at from high school
(36:34):
all the way up, has been a winner. The one
he just broke, his scoring breath, the championship, the number
you know, I'm like, you know, so if you want
to look at across the board numbers winning, I'm gonna say, kareem. Yeah.
His game wasn't a game that a lot of children
(36:55):
want to emulate. But if we're just looking at stacks
and numbers and you gotta give it to Korea. Yeah,
but you want to look at affecting the stock market.
Ain't want to look at getting Now. He ain't got
as many championships. He he didn't escores me. You're gonna
(37:16):
go for George, And there's a lot of that that
comes into play. Like the easy thing is to to
compare numbers. But to your point, I always say Wilt's
downfall was he didn't win championships in the way that
Bill Russell won them or the way that Michael. But
when you talk about just ship and when people say
to me, what he was playing little dudes, No he wasn't.
(37:37):
He was playing dudes of his era. Nate Thurma went,
you know, don't get me started. Man. So I'm with you,
and I say the same thing, man, it's errors, it's errors.
And yeah, it's as always a but I'm with you
on I'm with you on all three of those. But
all when I look at the whole thing, and again
(37:58):
his his game. Don't want to emulate, but I have
to look at Kareem yeah, and then yeah, and I
don't I ain't look at Wilch as compared to Jordan's.
But definitely I have to put Jordans above Lebron. And
I get this. When I gonna speaking engagement and younger people,
I say, listen, man, let me you think what you want.
But this is I said, now, if somebody I want
(38:22):
to play with, I'm gonna play with Lebron because he
gonna pass me the rock that he gonna give up
that rock where Mike. Look, Mike gave it up twice
his whole career. We're gonna have problems because but he
hasn't given up basketball altogether. He plays in the Big
(38:43):
Three League, founded by rapper Ice Cube. The three on
three league consists of former NBA and international players. Because
I'm curious, you know what I think about your career.
I sometimes think about that cliche line about the girl
that got away, right, So I think, as some level
you must have had that feeling about basketball. They took
(39:03):
these years from me, you know they too, So was
that part of why you decided to let me let
me jump in this league? That was definitely a part
of it. Um, I work out. I work out pretty
much every day their days, you know, I don't, but
nine is something center the time, I'm working out and
(39:23):
a lot of times twice a day, so I stayed
in shape. But I just wanted to And then most
of them are gonna be younger. I've never played again.
So it's that competitiveness, like, you know what, I want
to go in and just see at this age and
they're much younger, to seek to make, you know, measure
the speed, get into spots. And I'm like Dan because
(39:48):
if I can score and get to my spots, and
you're much younger, and I would play with him. Sometimes
I say, hey, man, you know if we play with
each other and and I scored twenty and you score
ten or twelve, you look bad. I said. If you
scored twenty five and I scored twenty or two, you
(40:10):
look bad. I said. If you scored twenty five and
I scored eight, they're going to the man fitted some
years old. I said, so you got everything to lose.
They're like thinking, they're trying hard. But a part of
it was, man, I just I just wanted to come
out and just measure at this age and with the
new generation, you know what I could do. And also
(40:31):
in my own little way, like to try to send
a message, like if I'm doing this at this age,
you know, and I get to my spots. Imagine how
quick I was then, and imagine if those years wasn't
taken right to kind of you know. And so I'm grateful.
I'm grateful man to uh ice Cube. I tell him
every time I see man, thank you so much. This
(40:53):
league has been a blessing for so many players. And
Uh it upsets me because he doesn't get a lot
of it is because I believe who he is. But yeah,
I'm I'm definitely indebted to him. Man. I think it's
a great thing. Hey man, I appreciate the time and
and happy for the documentary staying on showtime. But let
(41:13):
me say to you, you know, I appreciate anybody who
stands in a resolve. You know. I think about Ali
and and losing years of a career and all, but
staying in that breach and and I salute you for that. Man.
It means a lot to I really do. I appreciate
you sacrificing this time and allow me to come on.
(41:35):
I didn't even it didn't even register who you were
until I saw your face. So I remember, and I
appreciate that. Brother. Definitely nice seeing good to see you
man again. The documentary Stand is streaming now on Showtime
(42:00):
one hundred is produced by ed Gordon Media and distributed
by I Heart Media. Carol Johnson Green and Sharie Weldon
are our bookers. Our editor is Lance Patton. Gerald Albright
composed and performed our theme. Please join me on Twitter
and Instagram at ed L Gordon and on Facebook at
ed Gordon Media
Welcome to the latest edition of one hundred The Ed
Gordon Podcast. Today a conversation with Macmuve abdul Rauf born
Chris Jackson, the Mississippi native with star in basketball in
high school, becoming a McDonald's All American. He would go
on to star at l s U, where he played
with Shaquille O'Neil. Jackson became an All American and the
(00:44):
third pick of the NBA draft. He played for nine
seasons with three teams in the NBA and averaged almost
fifteen points per game in spite of playing with Tourette syndrome.
He was on track to be a perennial star, but
his career would be derailed by a number of events.
(01:05):
In n he converted to Islam, and two years later
he changed his name to mak Mu abdul Rauf. In
he refused to stand for the Star spangled banner before games,
saying the American flag was a symbol of oppression and tyranny.
The NBA would soon suspend abdul Rove and from that
(01:28):
point on, his career would never be the same and
was cut short. His journey is chronicled in the new
documentary stand Streaming now on showtime with all that occurred
with the NBA men, because I thought about putting myself
in your shoes, right, because those of us who love
(01:49):
basketball for long time understand the short shrift you get. Frankly,
if you look at your numbers and look at all
of the things. When they talk about guards, they're not
throwing your name out there when they should. Quite frankly,
just this is numbers across the boards that did you
ever have to fight bitterness? Oh? Of course I was
(02:11):
a bit of for a long time. Uh. You know
when you put so much work in and you really
you pride yourself because you were raised to be respectful,
to be courteous, to be fair, and you know, you
you make a decision that makes people uncomfortable and because
of that decision, you know, they treat you different. Your
(02:34):
career dissipates, uh, and not because you said anything that
was inaccurate. It is because they just didn't like it. Yeah.
You You you become bitter because you you affect a
person's livelihood. And as African Americans, we don't have generational
wealth and a lot of us we give our life.
(02:55):
And I'm not saying you know, our environment has a web,
moting and shaping it. So you know, if if I
grew up in an environment where hey man, my mother
she had this type of education, we didn't grow up with,
you know, being taught critical thinking skills and problems solving
in and the conditioning that takes place in society with
(03:15):
a lot of us to the imagery and stuff man,
and to think, to to shrink and to disappear, you know.
Uh uh, So we spend so much time becoming absorbing ourselves,
were trying to hone our skills, and then now we
make it we don't again because we don't have generational wealth.
(03:37):
Not only we responsible taking care of just our immediate family,
and we got to take it a whole bunch of
other fails and we're and we're lacking those other skills
of investing and stuff like that. And you take that away, uh,
you affect not only that person, you affect families. So
it took man, it took her. It took her, wow
for me, uh to grapple with you know, and I'm
(04:00):
I'm I'm still bitter, m But I'm I've always prided
myself on how do I say this? I don't think
there's anything wrong with being angry, with being bitter about
what's worth being bitter and angry about it doesn't paralyze
me though, right, you know, I've never been a person
(04:21):
where I've been paralyzed by it. But if if you
did something to me for slavery and we haven't been
compensated and you still are doing the same old things
and the same pattern exists, no, I'm going no, justice
hasn't been served, and then you're still doing it to others. No,
(04:43):
you haven't learned your lessons. So yeah, I'm bitter about that.
But yeah, I know. I was just gonna say. I
did a commentary a few months back about the tag
of an angry black man or angry angry black woman,
and I say, you know what, Yeah, I'm angry, and
I got a right to be. I don't to always
throw that away. You know. People say I don't want
to be seen as angry black man, but sometimes I
(05:03):
want to be seen as the angry black man. That's right.
I'm angry Dale Brown before I even knew it was him.
I love him, you know, but we had our differences.
We should know your coach in college, y, Yeah, Dale Brown,
of my coaching college, he uh, And I didn't know
it was him for the longest. He would send me
emails and sometimes and I told him this some time ago.
(05:25):
I said, man, you would send me emails and they
came off as like anti Islamic, right, And I didn't
know it was you for a while until one day
he said something about you sound like an angry black man.
I said, you make it sound like angry is always bad.
I said, if it wasn't for anger, we wouldn't defend ourselves.
God gave us anger, sadness, happiness. He gave us these
(05:47):
emotions to use appropriately, right. And then so we start
going on a tangent with each other, and he was
starting my spiritualism myself with some people say spiritual, you know,
as a euphemism for being atheist. So you just have
a dialogue. I said, hold on, man, I said this
this the Dale Brown of l s U. He said yes,
I said, I've been having this dialogue. But he with
(06:09):
the angry black man too, And that was my response
to him, like you, look, if we if you have
a right to be angry, look, don't hide it. You know,
people need to know when you when you don't express yourself,
people will never know your pain and then you know.
So no, I want you to know that you you
did something to me that I don't like. They want
(06:31):
to pacify us, you know, with love and love, and
don't do that. No, no, no, man, you got a
right to be angry. I agree with Hollywood and history
books always want to paint America as a tolerant nation.
It is tolerant at times. It is an intolerant nation
more often than America wants to admit. I'm curious for you.
(06:54):
I think about all of the things that America saw
white American in particular saw as intolerant as relates to you.
So here's a guy. We loved him as Chris Jackson,
but he didn't change his name now and he wanted
him Muslims. Here's a man who had to deal with
Tourette's in public in a way that was put on
(07:17):
a stage much larger and far before anyone even knew
what Tourette's was. Here was a black man who was
not afraid to speak up and say what his beliefs
and thinking were, bucking a system that wants you to
stay in line. When you look at all of these things,
(07:38):
which one was hardest for you to deal with. You
know what, that's a that's a great question. It's never
been asked. But if I'm shooting for an answer right now,
I would say, it is the It is the feeling
that I don't have a right to this agree and
(08:01):
to look down on the oppressiveness or the oppression that
America is causing that just because you have reached this
plateau of fame and wealth and now we've allowed you,
you know, to be in this country club environment. You know,
(08:23):
how dare you feel that you have that type of
right to speak out as if though I'm supposed to
forget about where I came from. You know, it's like
we are taught, you know, and I believe this, we
are taught to look at our wounds as nothing compared
(08:43):
to the depth of gratitude of being America. But America
would't be anywhere without us, right And so you hear
this thing was America that gave you this? What hold on,
let's let's let's let's follow that logic a little further.
You've had three hundred and fifty something years of a
free label, you've had You've had also those same amount
(09:05):
of years of not paying taxes on that Laby, you've
been able to accrue generational wealth, you know, So we
are old a major you know, you have as a
major debt old to us, and you want to talk
about what America has done for me, done for us
not And so it's amazing when so to me, that
was the greatest insult. It's like, again, how dare you?
(09:30):
But also this is a this is a person that
we lost because he changed his name, right, we lost him.
We don't have him no more. And I think that
was a great that's also a great offense to them
as well. And this is I think one of the
most dangerous things when you deny a person a history
of their coach and who they are, because you become
(09:51):
susceptible to someone else's interpretation of who you are and
they don't always have your best interests, which history has
shown us. So this was the one that burned me
more as I began to read, I'm like, wow, the arrogants,
you know, if people you know, to take that position,
and so that made me go hard. You know, that
(10:12):
made me go harder. There's a certain freedom that one
has once they crossed the street, right, So once you
decided you know what do what you will. But I'm
I'm staying here. Talk to me about the day you
you read you gave yourself that freedom, and how that
changed the dynamic for you, because it's like anything else.
(10:34):
I tell people all the time, the thing that you're
most afraid of, it's the anticipation. Frankly, that is far
worse than the actuality. I agree, I agree. I can't
pick the day, but I can repeat the moment when
my my mind began to shift. And that's when Dale Brown,
my coach at LSU, gave me the autobiography of Malcolm
(10:55):
I began to read about his life man, just how
his mind worked ideal with rhetoric and not jeez, you know,
just the courage that he had. I'm like, man, I
didn't have it because growing up in the South, you know,
your environment shapes and MOSI right, seeing how your family
and people around you interact with whiteness, began to do
the same thing right and and to be silent over
(11:16):
things you shouldn't exciting about. And he was just the opposite.
But I'm like, man, I want that, and so I began.
As a result, I ended up becoming Muslim. I began
to read like I've never read before in my life,
and my the height of my education came on the road.
I would meet people. We stay up two, three, four
o'clock in the morning. They have different disciplines, some be
(11:37):
great and uh social sciences or politics or religion. And
we talked and they introduced me books, introduced to me
books that I've never heard about. Authors I've never heard about,
the Gnomes, the howard Zins, the Kawanzak and Jewfus, the
Aimos in Wilson's I Mean your name. So I'm reading
and reading them, soaking in and I'm learning about things
globally and wow, I've never heard of it. I'm reading
(11:59):
The Prince of Slaves, you know, I'm reading everything. And
that's when it began to dawn on me. I said, man,
I felt I've been cheated. And I didn't like the
way that felt. And I got mad because I'm looking
at my history. I'm like, wow, man, I I put
all my life into the game, and I didn't know
(12:20):
statistically I had a better chance of becoming a doctor, lawyer,
and then all of these, all of the greatness like
we taught to Africa was this. But then I'm looking
at Timbuctoo. Before West, the West had universities and books
with the number one commodity. They had street lights, they
had civilism. And now I'm I'm literally feeling the weight
(12:42):
of the insult that America has has given to me,
and that I just couldn't sit still like man, you know,
Waldo Emerson said, wherever you go, there you are. You
can't run. So I couldn't run. I'm like, I can't
pretend no more. And so that's when things began in
the shift for me. And I said, I gotta start
(13:02):
taking steps towards learning how to say no, learning how
to stand up. And the more you do it, the
more you practice, the better it gets. Like you said,
the worst thing is the anticipation, but then it's usually
less than what you thought it was gonna be. And
and and I decided at that moment, I said, I'm
not going to allow my enemies to outmaneuver my destiny.
(13:26):
You know what I mean. Maybe there is no difference,
but if there is, what's the biggest difference in Chris
Jackson and Mark mul abdul Rov. Is there a difference, Yes,
The biggest difference is Chris Jackson tried to stay away
(13:48):
from conflict, you know. He he he didn't want to
raise his hands in class to ask questions, and he
didn't want someone to point him out to answer them.
He just he he believed in God, he prayed, He
believes in courtesy and kindness, all of those things. But
he was non confrontation right. He had an inferiority complict.
(14:12):
He looked at himself academically as being inadequate. I no
longer look look at it that way, you know, our
own I look at you know, look man, I'm you know,
we can go to the highest of the hype high,
or we can demote ourselves to the lords of it.
When I look at look at it now, I'm like, look, man,
(14:33):
God gives me a mind, He gives me abilities, like
he gives you know, all of us different stuff. But
it's up to me to utilize. And I plan on
utilizing every last bit of it. I'm not gonna apologize.
And I was living a life and a lot of
us are talked to walk this earth in a constant
state of apologize. To apologize for being black, apologized being smart,
apologized with being rich, I apologized walking by you. I
(14:56):
apologize for saying you hurt me, you just hit me,
but I apologize but expressing to you that you've heard me.
I will not live my life as an apology. This
is the my move that didn't exist when I was
Chris Jackson. You know time, often I tell people it's
(15:17):
the time you're in that determines outcome often, you know
m hm. So I think about when you decided to
uh and will steal the title of the documentary stand,
when you decided to stand and then literally just bow
your head during the national anthem as a means of protest.
(15:41):
I'm wondering how you saw the difference in media coverage
and how America and how white American particular, but even
even those in Black America at that time viewed you
the issue, the circumstance and juxtaposed that to what Colin
Kaepernick went through to what were the differences you saw? Well, um,
(16:06):
definitely with with white America. It was more of an
attack of condemnation. Who who did this guy think? He
is trying to brand me as being ignorant, unaware of
the circumstances and what America is really about? You had
did you have some of that in Black America? Of
course you're gonna always have that. But I think more
(16:28):
so depending on the publications. Uh, because we look as
black people, we share similar experiences. You can't out class racism.
I don't care if your doctor, lawyer, y'all feel it.
And so I think more so in the black commentary
it was less of it. Uh, it was more supportive
(16:52):
then by far the white commentary, as it pertains the
Kaepernick Um. I think you asked the difference, uh h
And there were so many similarities. You know. I received
a lot of death threats, I received hate, man, but
I also received just as much, if not more, support
made Christians, Jews, women, men, white, black atheists saying, man,
(17:16):
we believe we we we we we follow you, we
support you, we we we we agree with you. And
they start breaking down history right in those letters. But
the difference is that we didn't have social media. H
and so in his day and age, people can get online.
And one of the examples I which is powerful. One
(17:36):
of the examples I used is when the football playout
the law went into the end zone. He went into
prostration the NFL media and said we're gonna find him
suspending people got on social media. What about t bow
and they had to pull back the t bow doing
he and all that stuff. Right, So that was the
game changer with Kaepernick because now you can you can
(17:57):
see the overwhelming support. Unlike my time, the media was
probably receiving the same, but they can choose to control
the narrative more and hold that information back. And let's
just focus on this right here. It was. It's interesting
because the note I have here to ask you about.
It's just that you know, in a real sense, had
the NBA allowed you to quietly see this is what
(18:21):
people miss in the beginning, you make a big deal
of it. You were very quiet in the beginning with
the protest. The media exploded it. The media exploded its right, um,
it's cause which caused the NBA they were forced to
(18:41):
do something. But the NBA also probably knew they have
personnel sitting and look, man, the NBA, they were gonna
suspend me, the guy that finds people, right, but they
have people that watched to see what you want doing,
and and they're trying to find reasons to find you.
They were gonna find me a thousand dollars per stock
(19:03):
because the NBA emblem wasn't even show so you're telling
me four months prior to the next season, I'm on
the sideline. You got your security, you got all these
people in the NBA, and you don't see me not
standing because why the NBA didn't see no big deal.
They made it a big deal because the media made
it a big deal. So now you want to bring
instead of protecting me, you want you, you want to
(19:25):
you want to condemn me for it without and so
to me, that was it was very hypocritical for them
to do that. The vitriol against abdul Raouf was real,
beyond regular death threats. He's lost millions, his home was
burned to the ground, and ultimately he lost his basketball career.
(19:45):
When we talk about what you went through it, you know,
sometimes people received death threats and those that don't receive
them don't know how frightening and real that can be
when you receive them. They burned your house down, the
house that you would be old and you know this
was real, and yet the convictions stayed the same. Was
(20:06):
that simply faith? Was that how you were raised? What
was that that kept you to say, I'm not gonna waiver, man,
I'm glad you asked that. You know, we're taught and
it's man to contemplate death every day, not in a
morbid type of way. Says that death brings you closer
to God because we all, we were all gonna leave here,
(20:27):
and so death is also we believe, you know, we're
taught not to fear none, nothing of no one but God.
Death is a creation. They say death, when it served
its purpose, it will die, So we're not to fear that.
So I think about just like the game, I would
imagine scenarios and opponents touching hand in the face, and
(20:52):
it gets to the point where you train so much
and even when nobody's out there, you're feeling attention and
you're going through to three different invisible people, you begin
to see two three moves ahead and you the game
becomes easy. So for me, literally, yeah, I knew it
was serious, but because I think of death all the day,
(21:14):
and I you know, I pondered rationalize it, and I
know it exists, not to fear it. I literally that
didn't even phase me because we're also taught that whatever
God has for me, nobody can keep it from me,
and whatever He don't want me to have, nobody can
give it to me. You can't rush nor the delay
(21:36):
the time that's allotted for you. People say, what about
people commit suicide. There are more people statistically trying to
commit suicide that failed that those who succeed, because it
ain't there time. I'm constantly having this dialogue. So when
this stuff has happened, I was like, look, man, it
is what it is. I'm not gonna ben you know.
If it's my time, it's my time. So because I'm resting,
I'm having these conversations talking to myself. It gave me
(22:00):
strength to continue because I don't feel that. And I'm
not saying that like oh I'm just tough like no, no, no,
I'm not saying not too fear. A healthy element of
fear is good because it keeps you cautious. It helps
you to protect yourself, you know. But I'm talking about
this unhealthy to where it paralyzes. Yeah, you I was cautious.
(22:22):
Now I'm I'm I'm looking around, I'm I'm having my protection.
I'm doing all of that, but it's not gonna paralyze
me to where I'm gonna be silent. I'm not gonna travel,
I'm not gonna move around with my No. No, God
is in control. So that helped me and still does.
Let's get to the basketball side of your life again.
As I mentioned to you earlier when we started, I
(22:45):
think because of all that happened, people forget or never
learned about if they were too young, the sheer talent
you were and the shooter you were. You know, Listen,
there are a list of cats that were just shooters period,
you know, and we can tick them off. We know
Ray Allen, Reggie Miller's you know, uh, Steph Curry obviously.
(23:08):
I mean, we can go down the list, and often
because of what happened, your name does not make it
in that list in the media. But those of us
who know the game, follow the game, watch the game,
understand that you're in that list of cats. Uh, your
third pick in the ninety NBA draft, behind I think Coleman,
(23:31):
Derek Buddy of mine and and Gary Payton. So talk
to me about draft day for you, because for everybody
when you you know, that's a that's a dream fulfilled
Talk to me about that first. I mean draft day, man,
I was nervous. Uh, you know, it was a huge step.
(23:51):
You heard, Okay, you're going in between one and five.
More So, leaned closer to five. Uh, you're thinking about
all those years man of putting in that work. But
also there was this unhealthy man sense of fear, you know,
because now you know we've been conditioned. Like I said,
(24:14):
uh uh, I can't help to say this. And I said,
all the time, our environment, the language, things that we see,
the things that we here, it influences us. And so
I could never truly embrace success because I was always
looking over my shoulder, Man, this is too good to
be true. Something's gonna happen and I and it didn't take.
(24:36):
It took years later when I started analyzing whatever I
grew up listening to and hearing all the time, right
And one of the shows, two shows that I used
to look look look at religiously, was Sad for the
Son a good Time, And I started saying, well, you know,
they live in the same similar socio economic backgrounds and
live but every day we were hoping that they make
(24:57):
it out to ghetto because if they make it out,
we feel like we make it out. But every day
it seemed like when they were close to making and
something would happen to kick him right back in. And
I so I said, darn, this is where a lot
of this is coming from. I gotta change. I gotta
change what I consumed. And so I couldn't answer you
a question. I was happy, I was scared. I didn't
(25:17):
want to get on no plane. I was like, man,
I gotta sign this deal, and please God, don't let
this plane. I'm so I want to take care of
my mom. Wonta take care of my family. I want
to help people. So it was a mixture of emotions
going through that draft day that I was wrestling with.
But I was a man. I'm so happy. And then
you got now you gotta be a grown man. Now
(25:38):
you gotta go to a new city. And so these
are sometimes people don't think they's always just a great man.
I gotta go to new city. I gotta I ain't
never paid no bills. I gotta find a house. I
gotta learn how to really be grown up now, you know.
And so it was these I couldn't really enjoy it
because these things were just you know, being They were
(25:59):
overwhelming to me at the time. Each step of the ladder,
for an athlete, he is a proof, whether you believe
it or not. Some some go in walking in believing
there they have the talent to be there, and some
are unsure until they get there. L s U. It
almost comes quicker, I think than you imagine to know
(26:21):
that you belong there. And and look, I got game
for this level. Yeah, what was it in the NBA?
Was it as quick? No? And the NBA wasn't as quick,
And a lot of it was my fault. Uh, And
I'm gonna I'm gonna say the first year, so most
of it was my fault because I was listening to
(26:42):
the wrong people. They were saying you need to be bulky.
I never had a train in my life, you know. Uh.
And so I started eating, but my workouts didn't match
my because I was too busy. I was too busy
trying to gain, not thinking like man, I just left L.
S U. The guys that make it the pro the
ones is leaving college with similar looties. But I ended up.
(27:02):
I was like nineteen percent body fact. And then you
have Paul West said, with a running style. And so
even though I still felt that with that style, given
the opportunity to be I mean I numbers are padded
when you have a running running team. Fourteen points ain't
really Yeah, but uh, it was more so me. That's
(27:27):
why I didn't come as fast if I would have
came into shape, which I eventually got into, because even
at that weight, I had my moments where I could
I just couldn't get to my spot as quick. But
I can still get my shot. I can make my shot. Um.
And so it took me my third year, I believe uh.
And And actually that second year, I began to lose
(27:50):
weight and show promise, but Paul West said was still
playing with my minutes. I don't think he really wanted
me there because Doug Moe was the one that drafted
for me. They fired him and brought in all. And
then the third years when dan Issel came and I
lost a total of counting from when Ramadan started to
the next year, I lost forty pounds. I came back
at my high school weight and I listened to me.
(28:12):
Then I ain't listened to them. They not even tell
him I was too small. I said, I heard the
first one, I'm gonna follow me, and that's when I
came and I got most and groups. So it took
me that kind of midway through that second to that
third year to say, Okay, enough is enough, you know,
what people miss often in in elite athletes is the
work ethic. Yeah right, I heard you talk about how
(28:37):
Turette's having Turette's and and clearly talking to you now
I've been watching all the interviews you're doing. People don't
realize where you were when you were playing with Tourett's
in terms of twitch and all that you were going.
I mean it was heavy then, right, So you have that,
(28:57):
you have the idea of a work ath think that
most cats that sit on the couch and say, I
don't know why he missing that free throw. I don't
know why he can't catch that, And I tell the negro,
you wouldn't need caught the ball. You wouldn't have caught
up to the ball. You wouldn't you know, it's easy
from the couch, right. So I heard you talk about
somebody like who you play with shock and just a
(29:19):
supreme specimen of a man and athletic and all the things,
who was willing to work and somebody like Stanley Roberts,
who most people won't remember, who maybe had more just
ability and raw talent, who wouldn't have to work at it,
which hurts you because you feel like you don't have
to work at it. What did you do to make
(29:43):
sure that you worked at it? Well, there's a couple
of things. I mean, one of them is just how
naturally to Retz pushes you itself, like mentally, it's a
man embody on two different wave lengths. You know. If
it's something, especially something you value, it's like it's another
person that's influencing you. And if you don't do what
(30:05):
it says do, it's gonna bother you the rest of
the day, and it's gonna is going to increase your
your ticks and your symptoms. The other part of that
is I grew up always, you know, my grandmother, aunt
and the uncle always you know, taught me the value
of Yeah, believe in God, but don't take anything for granted.
(30:27):
As quick as God give it to you, he can
take it away from So I never allowed myself to
get comfortable. Oh no, I never allowed myself to become complacent, right,
And I think there's a fine line between comfort and
complacency or confidence and concumens. And so I always always
(30:47):
told myself, I don't care if I score fifty, never
get complacent. There's always room for improvement. Like every time
something happened. I'm sending messages back to myself daily, right,
and I'm always creating, creating, uh motivators. Right, I'm thinking
about my mom. I'm thinking about an opponent that I
(31:08):
may have to meet someday. That's tall as fast as stocky.
That's strong. I'm thinking about helping people someday. So someday
my mom. The idea of my mom ain't strong enough.
I gotta pull from this motivator, from always having dialogue
with myself, telling myself, you know, uh, trying, I want
to be the best to play, but also never be complacent.
(31:30):
That's always room for improvement. Never be complacent. There's always
room for improvement no matter what happens. To keep me grounded,
to keep me humbling, hungry, humbling, hungry all the way through,
and then always trying to but if if whatever I do,
I'm always trying to make my workouts harder, if I
if they go in all net. Now I wanted to
(31:52):
come back to me, and then I wanted to go
off the glass and go in. Then I wanted to
go off the glass all net. And I'm talking about
food speed and no glitches in the move. Or you
gotta go back to zero and and and it's like
near death experience almost every day. And so it's a
combination of the Turettes, but also the way I was
raised to think, you know, never get complacent, always feel
(32:13):
this room for improvement, and that kept me balanced. One
would talk to you now and never know you ever
were afflicted as you were back in the day. What
what did you do? What have you done to control it? Man?
But I'm controlling it better. But it's looked from the
moment I wake up, like you see me now, you
might see me doing this. M hmm. I've I've managed
(32:36):
to be able to camouflage it. I may I may
do something like this and it looks like I'm stretching,
but that's I might like. I'm my body sow on Twitter,
but a note in some present at the time, almost
a hundred. It's a tick. But I've learned to like
do it slower, but it's still strong as opposed growing.
(32:59):
I like, I've learned how to slow it down. But
I try to prayer. I mean, I'm big on prayer.
I'm big on trying to watch what I eat and
how much I eat, because I've noticed how certain foods
it'll it'll increase my heart rate, which will also you know,
increase my symptoms. Try to get I'm a I'm a naptaker,
(33:21):
but also I try to stay also away from negative stress.
So all of those things I tried incorporated in my life.
That's been working for me. All right. Last two questions, brother,
and this is uh one that I always love to
ask athletes. Not the best player you ever saw? Who's
(33:41):
the best player you played against? You had to go
to care you Rod big d and Rod was even
though another underrated cat like pros will tell you, Rod
Stricken a lot. Rod Strickling was one of those two.
He was one of those guys. He may not have
been taking a lot of political stand but Rod was
(34:03):
a man's man. He's gonna if he if he wants,
If he don't agree with something he don't agree with.
If you agree with he agree with, they ain't like that.
He should have made he should have been a Parential
All Star, but it wasn't because he was prolific with
his shot, like free throw line extended, he could make that.
But he was herky jerk. Yeah is right left. We
(34:25):
had great bouts with each other, but he was just
one of those girls. He was just crafted. How they
saying fighting styles fighting. You have a champion that's whipping
everybody he gets with somebody else, it's like the dude
been losing, but but somehow he can't beat him. Rod
was just he was I say this, I've been saying
(34:45):
this for years. I ain't let you finish. It was
quick to say it. Yeah, and it's interesting. Man. Rod
again would not be a guy at the media. A
lot of people would immediately say, but pros I talked
to well Ely say, who's one of the baddest guds.
You have boomed period period offense and defense, and like
(35:08):
you said, crafty everything, I'm gonna get this rebound. Well
he ain't that big. Well yeah, I'm get this rebound. Right.
So all right, I gotta ask you the favorite uh
barbershop question, and that is coming out of Lebron taking
the scoring title? Who is your goat? I don't, I don't.
I don't even really like the title because I I
(35:30):
tell people, look, it's errors. For me, it's errors, right,
it's errors. But let's let's play the game anyway. So
for me, as much as I admire Lebron, for as
much as I think that in his totality on and
off the court, I might have to nod him. But
(35:50):
for cap my age to watch Michael and what he did,
it's hard for me to put anybody above him. For you,
where where do you sit at that discussion. I'm gonna
go even a little further, and I think people feel
forget about Will myself, but well, I'm gonna go even.
I'm gonna go another angle now and I wouldn't. I
(36:11):
would give. I would give even over Lebron. It ain't
just a you know, because Michael didn't play those years either,
But it ain't just the point thing. I would give
the nod before I tell you this other person. I
would give the nod out of those two to Jordan's too,
you know when I look at But I'm gonna tell
you another person when you look at from high school
(36:34):
all the way up, has been a winner. The one
he just broke, his scoring breath, the championship, the number
you know, I'm like, you know, so if you want
to look at across the board numbers winning, I'm gonna say, kareem. Yeah.
His game wasn't a game that a lot of children
(36:55):
want to emulate. But if we're just looking at stacks
and numbers and you gotta give it to Korea. Yeah,
but you want to look at affecting the stock market.
Ain't want to look at getting Now. He ain't got
as many championships. He he didn't escores me. You're gonna
(37:16):
go for George, And there's a lot of that that
comes into play. Like the easy thing is to to
compare numbers. But to your point, I always say Wilt's
downfall was he didn't win championships in the way that
Bill Russell won them or the way that Michael. But
when you talk about just ship and when people say
to me, what he was playing little dudes, No he wasn't.
(37:37):
He was playing dudes of his era. Nate Thurma went,
you know, don't get me started. Man. So I'm with you,
and I say the same thing, man, it's errors, it's errors.
And yeah, it's as always a but I'm with you
on I'm with you on all three of those. But
all when I look at the whole thing, and again
(37:58):
his his game. Don't want to emulate, but I have
to look at Kareem yeah, and then yeah, and I
don't I ain't look at Wilch as compared to Jordan's.
But definitely I have to put Jordans above Lebron. And
I get this. When I gonna speaking engagement and younger people,
I say, listen, man, let me you think what you want.
But this is I said, now, if somebody I want
(38:22):
to play with, I'm gonna play with Lebron because he
gonna pass me the rock that he gonna give up
that rock where Mike. Look, Mike gave it up twice
his whole career. We're gonna have problems because but he
hasn't given up basketball altogether. He plays in the Big
(38:43):
Three League, founded by rapper Ice Cube. The three on
three league consists of former NBA and international players. Because
I'm curious, you know what I think about your career.
I sometimes think about that cliche line about the girl
that got away, right, So I think, as some level
you must have had that feeling about basketball. They took
(39:03):
these years from me, you know they too, So was
that part of why you decided to let me let
me jump in this league? That was definitely a part
of it. Um, I work out. I work out pretty
much every day their days, you know, I don't, but
nine is something center the time, I'm working out and
(39:23):
a lot of times twice a day, so I stayed
in shape. But I just wanted to And then most
of them are gonna be younger. I've never played again.
So it's that competitiveness, like, you know what, I want
to go in and just see at this age and
they're much younger, to seek to make, you know, measure
the speed, get into spots. And I'm like Dan because
(39:48):
if I can score and get to my spots, and
you're much younger, and I would play with him. Sometimes
I say, hey, man, you know if we play with
each other and and I scored twenty and you score
ten or twelve, you look bad. I said. If you
scored twenty five and I scored twenty or two, you
(40:10):
look bad. I said. If you scored twenty five and
I scored eight, they're going to the man fitted some
years old. I said, so you got everything to lose.
They're like thinking, they're trying hard. But a part of
it was, man, I just I just wanted to come
out and just measure at this age and with the
new generation, you know what I could do. And also
(40:31):
in my own little way, like to try to send
a message, like if I'm doing this at this age,
you know, and I get to my spots. Imagine how
quick I was then, and imagine if those years wasn't
taken right to kind of you know. And so I'm grateful.
I'm grateful man to uh ice Cube. I tell him
every time I see man, thank you so much. This
(40:53):
league has been a blessing for so many players. And
Uh it upsets me because he doesn't get a lot
of it is because I believe who he is. But yeah,
I'm I'm definitely indebted to him. Man. I think it's
a great thing. Hey man, I appreciate the time and
and happy for the documentary staying on showtime. But let
(41:13):
me say to you, you know, I appreciate anybody who
stands in a resolve. You know. I think about Ali
and and losing years of a career and all, but
staying in that breach and and I salute you for that. Man.
It means a lot to I really do. I appreciate
you sacrificing this time and allow me to come on.
(41:35):
I didn't even it didn't even register who you were
until I saw your face. So I remember, and I
appreciate that. Brother. Definitely nice seeing good to see you
man again. The documentary Stand is streaming now on Showtime
(42:00):
one hundred is produced by ed Gordon Media and distributed
by I Heart Media. Carol Johnson Green and Sharie Weldon
are our bookers. Our editor is Lance Patton. Gerald Albright
composed and performed our theme. Please join me on Twitter
and Instagram at ed L Gordon and on Facebook at
ed Gordon Media
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